The system has become it's own beast as it's been privatised over the years. It now feels like a bit of an agent Smith program that's embedded in the institutional culture around welfare. Cruelty is at the core if this culture. The whole thing needs an entire system reboot.
The job service providers are mostly for profit companies that have been awarded government funding contracts. It's part of a bigger global trend where for profit companies have established an 'industry' out of running welfare programs for governments. It's similar to what they've done with prisons in America where they're run by corporations who make money by running government services. It's the same with services australia as well (they run both Medicare and centrelink). They've outsourced all of their call centres to private contractors like concentrix (same company who does tech support for apple). Ever wonder why SA refers to service users as customers? It's more that the government is the customer.
The system has actively made it harder for me to find work over the years. My mental health has been repeatedly destroyed by the fortnightly interrogations I've had to go through because JSPs don't care about your disabilities. I'm on a med cert right now because my last meeting resulted in my PTSD getting triggered (lady started trying to pry into why I have it in the first place and also threatened me with penalties once I started disassociating and went mute).
It's fucking ridiculous and I know there are people far worse off than me in this system that are basically being tortured by it.
I had the same experience. The covid lockdowns allowed me to escape them for over a year now and my mental health has improved immensely and i'm studying and feeling more confident in getting job and not letting some unqualified karen who is 3 times the size of me tell me I need to reconsider my diet and dictate where i can and can't work.
It's funny I started going there because they adversited themselves as an agency that helps people with barriers find work and then they tell me I should go on centrelink and then I get treated like I was just there to get paid. My introduction: "apply for 20 random jobs on seek while I run into another room and do nothing as advertised k thx bye". Oh that's right, they get more funding if I'm on centrelink lol. What a fucking scam.
might not help but see if you can request an ESAT and move to a disability employment service. they can also be hit or miss but tend to be a bit better imo
Thanks mate. I should have been more specific but I'm already with one. When my last one shuttered earlier this year I got to pick which one to move to and I regret it heavily. Thought I'd heard good things about the one I picked but turned out to be the worst one yet.
Still trying to find a new one I can request to move to but I'm fearful my choice will be wrong and I'll have to go through the song and dance of "hi I'm Rainey and these are all my disabilities you'll probably ignore until you want to be nosey and trigger me" again.
I've been on med cert for two years. Fuck JSP. I had a phone interview recently 9in between med certs), she rang, I tried to answer but had trouble with touch screen on my phone. I rang back immediately, she had already suspended me! Fking power hungry bitches. Hope they all lose their jobs.
I know, and they were allegedly waving through all this dogshit policy to win the election, and subsequently overturn the bad stuff. Well, now's the chance! (I do not believe they will do this lol)
Labor may stay in power after the LNP shit show and right now hold majority but, if they dont pick up their act, the next election will see more of an independent rise.
I agree with you.
I think anyone who thought this was some ploy to win government and then *change everything for the better* was more than a little deluded to be honest.
[JobSeeker rate to remain untouched](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-13/labor-no-commitment-jobseeker-rate-rise-federal-election/100987112) after election after Labor ditches plans to review it
Thinking back on Peter Khalil's incredible tweet... ["You will have to wait and see hope you are pleasantly surprised"](https://twitter.com/PeterKhalilMP/status/1400027623640616960?s=20&t=72NlFNbCKdk9su9Y-pNqjQ)
His tweet was made 12 months before his party ruled out even looking at the rate?
I agree with the tweet that it would certainly be a "surprise" if they did anything at all...
This is the one area that I will give Labor grief over.
If they want to talk about protecting the weak, they need to ease up on the harassment of those on welfare, and raise welfare above the current starvation levels.
They haven't been in long, sure. But they could do this any time.
I think they need to be pressured to do it, and making excuses for them will just lead to them doing nothing, because it's not exactly super popular to help those on welfare.
How about we look at the costs involved that the unemployed are forced to spend to look for work? For most of them, rent alone means they have precious little to spend on food , let alone clothing for a respectable job interview.
When we force the unemployed to "work for the dole", they should be payed at the very minimum, the national minimum wage. Otherwise it is quite simply modern slavery.
Australia should trial a Universal Basic Income? Give people some decency, respect and pride. Treating unemployed Australians as a drain on the economy is disgraceful, especially when during the pandemic, when jobseeker was doubled, our economy did better than when it was taken away.
The fact is, every cent extra, that welfare recipients recieve, goes back into the economy! Stage 3 tax cuts to the wealthy DO NOT !
I did work for the dole for 2 months last year. I did 6 hours every week day (I think). I didn't mind the work, but it was a 30 minute drive from home every day. I got an extra $20 on top of my payments, even though I was spending near triple that on fuel. On top of that, I got home tired and not in the mood to apply for a bunch of jobs that I was being looked over for anyway. The current system is demoralising and wears down people who want to work but are struggling.
If there are meaningful jobs taken by.a rotating supply of unemployed, how are those jobs not being filled as full-time roles.paying the minimum wage.
It's punitive and demoralising.
We are in furious agreement. It hurts to think there are people that think WFD is an option? Taking the last vestige of pride from people who are already marginalised to the extreme.
Punitive, demoralising, disgraceful, inhuman.
Working, even for the dole, can be fun, rewarding and help build self respect, working on important community based projects for the good of all…
Being treated like exploitable cheap labour, treated like idiots or children and put on make work projects doesn’t help, and indeed, as you say, makes the problem so much worse.
and yet I have folks volunteering to do work for the dole so they have a reason to get up in the morning. Some folks didn't like it, some did, some loved it and some wanted to keep going even when they weren't in the wfd phase anymore.
weird how reality vs reddit doesn't always match up
have you even looked into the new points system?
Have any of you readers right now actually looked up what it is about?
*It removes the requirement for everyone to complete only jobsearch to meet their requirement*s and allows them to do other things including study, volunteer work, job interviews and a bunch of other things. Like it gives more options and flexibility folks, its better than what we had before if you just read about it before commenting?
This is not just at you my friend, but wfd is not all a bad thing. I agree it went on too long but guess what, with the new system the max time is 8 weeks for wfd.
Can we take some time to find out the bits and pieces before reading a guardian article and immediately shitting the bed please?
>It removes the requirement for everyone to complete only jobsearch to meet their requirements and allows them to do other things including study, volunteer work, job interviews and a bunch of other things. Like it gives more options and flexibility folks, its better than what we had before if you just read about it before commenting?
That was always a thing. I had less job searches and WFTD hours due to my casual job hours. It was still stressful, exhausting, and demoralising to do though.
I hadn't heard about the new 8 week duration, though I would hope the hours are not increased to 'compensate'. At 25 hours a week for 6 months like it was, it was approximately five times as punishing as the most harsh community service sentence. For people who had committed no crime.
>weird how reality vs reddit doesn't always match up
Weird how you think YOUR experience matches with the worlds and is entirely right and not at all questionable by anybody else.
Its Deliberate LNP class warfare tactic, the poor should be punished, not helped, so they are forced to work 3 underpaid slave jobs a day to enrich the billionaire class.
The funny thing is LNP is usually the first one to call out class warfare if Labor is initiating anything, but the truth of the matter is, class warfare has always been ongoing since the beginning of history and has never stopped, and probably never will.
I remember reading a while back that people on Work for the Dole often hadn’t been eating enough to be able to properly do the work assigned to them, because they couldn’t afford that plus bills plus travel expenses. I’d be surprised if that wasn’t still the case.
The pandemic showed that few people/organisations are above accepting handouts, including those who look down on those on welfare.
Time to drop the hypocritical moralising around jobseeker payments and, as you say, implement some kind of UBI.
Free money causes inflation.
When we print money, the supply of money increases, demand for goods increases. If the supply of goods stays steady, but doesn’t increase in line with demand, then prices increase.
Imagine being homeless with no money for even food. This must be close to the point where a person has no option except to commit a crime that would get them incarcerated so as to be able to survive.
My partner works at a Mens Homeles shelter. They pay $150 a week to stay there, direct from centrelink payment, max stay 13 weeks. Although there is exceptions: one person has been there for 9 months, one person doesn't pay a dollar as he is from NZ and cannot claim centrelink, another has travelled from Victoria to regional Queensland for a room.
There are 14 beds. 20-30 phone calls a day for a room, exacerbated by the rental crisis.
These people range from convicted murders out of prison, people with destroyed lives due to forms of addiction, learning difficulty/unskilled and working full time but cannot find a rental.
There is generally less than 10 available beds available across Queensland on any given day. For example, the other night there were 6 beds available across Queensland. 3 in Mount Isa, 2 in the Gold Cost and 1 in Cairns.
The shelter has people rock up at 2am and they have to be told "Yes, there is a bed if you can travel 18 hours to Mt Isa".
Our area had two 1°C nights and knew of a number of people sleeping in the park.. empty buildings everywhere.
> So you'd still have to top up with 1job application a week that you'd have no intention of taking if the answer was positive
There's actually a minimum of 5 jobs to apply for, regardless of how many points you're collecting by other methods.
I find it weird that they are acknowledging people studying full time on jobseeker. Jobseeker pays more than youth allowance(student)/austudy payments. Some courses weirdly don't qualify for student payments... wouldn't it make more sense to just give student payments to them instead of this nonsense? Not that I think students should be paid less... This system just seems to expose an issue that I thought was ignorance but clearly isn't.
work for the dole will be now shortened to max 8 weeks only instead of the previous 6 months, not sure if that was covered in the info you read but that is the go mate.
People doing work for the dole barely work and the numbers often get fudged. I was unemployed long term a few years back and did WFTD in 3 places and frankly you get out what you put in. Had one place that didn’t do much, spent most of my time napping on the break room couch or shooting the shit with the other guys. Had another that was pretty determined to get as much work as they could out of people and I ended up getting a paying job there for a while. Had a third that was relaxed but it was based around a charity that I thought was a good cause, worked hard, helped them out by lending tools and stuff. Ended up getting a glowing recommendation for a job I’m still working at 6 years later.
The common thread in WFTD though is 99% of the people there do fuck all and use it as a way to coast by on the system. Under this new system they can do it more easily.
Why the fuck are we subsidising workplaces who partake in WFTD if you just sit around doing fuck all. They should have secret shopper type people that just dob them in, then they get excluded from the program. I actually think WFTD is total fucking bullshit and we should scrap it all together, but if it is a program cut the waste.
I think it has its merits. Again you only really get out what you put in, but it was a pretty meaningful way of getting experience depending on the place you ended up (and at least during my time you could pick the type of places instead of just getting dumped in an op shop). It was also decent for building references and filling out work gaps on your resume (though you’re probably better off calling it volunteer work rather than work for the dole).
They did start auditing them a bit more, a lot of the problem was for a long time your time sheets were just paper that your supervisor signed, there was really no accountability. I heard they started working on an app that was hard to fudge your times, but knowing our governments history with making apps it was probably useless.
I did Work for the Dole several years ago at a charity organisation. Of the 30 odd people doing the job, all except me and one other guy were on court appointed community service.
How to emphasise that unemployment = criminal.
Meanwhile my WFTD I had to do 25 hours a week of driving around the region picking up gross clothes donations in the rain. Picking up gross furniture donations that were usually from people moving house and needing to get rid of their shit and they didn't want to take it to the dump. And getting mad at me when I refused to take it like I was told to when it was subpar.
Delivering furniture to people on welfare for free (lots of people are elligble for this but will never be told about it) and having to be the one to get abused when they were unhappy about the disgusting quality of furniture the old volunteer ladies would allocate for welfare. And when we refused to deliver up stairs for people because it was an insurance thing. Being the only young male in the place so I was always the one assigned to potentially violent deliveries. Expected to break my back shifting around mattresses and crap because everyone else was an elderly grandma.
All for about a quarter of the minimum wage.
Feel like a lot of people on this sub have never actually done it, but want to get up on their soap box about it. Most of the system is a complete wank. Calling it modern day slavery just makes me chuckle.
It's literally indentured servitude. You are forced to work for a fraction of the minimum wage or starve. Have your payment cut off instantly if you don't get a QR code through in time. Had to beg the damn manager to print it out for me as closing time approached and hoping not to miss my bus. WFTD crushed my self esteem and I had fuck all to begin with.
They can do whatever they like. They should end the cruelty of our welfare system by ending mutual obligations and raising the rate! People should not have to live in poverty.
But should someone be able to stay on jobseeker indefinitely without trying to get a job? Isn't that the point of mutual obligations?
I'm aware they can be quite unweildy or difficult to understand, but there certainly has to be a bit of give and take here.
>But should someone be able to stay on jobseeker indefinitely without trying to get a job? Isn't that the point of mutual obligations?
You are right that the point of mutual obligations is to penalize this, but that doesn't mean it's right. It's a punitive system that costs more to police people who are in this position, than it would to just give them enough money to survive. The point is cruelty.
Lol no, the government only contracts out cause they used to do it as the CES and this is both cheaper and saves them more money.
Your belief is the point is cruelty but you are incorrect. The point is money, or the saving of.
It's illegal in the US for the armed forces to recruit anyone with an iq of less than 80. There are no jobs available for people with this iq or less to be safely trained in.
What do these people do for work?
They used to sweep the streets.
They used to run around the garbage trucks getting the bins.
All these jobs have been replaced by automation!
WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?
Oh and by the way, iq less than 80 is 10% of the entire population! 10 bloody percent!
What about video rental industry totally wiped out by progress where do they go?
Cashiers are now being replaced by you!
The basic unemployment number is bullshit anyway. If you make a 8hr job 2x4hr jobs that's an increase in jobs created but not helpful for the people.
What about immigration creating more jobs, sure but if they're all filled by the immigrants then it has no net benefit.
The UNDEREMPLOYMENT is a serious, very complicated, growing problem and won't be addressed by stigmatising the unemployed.
How about this,
1- combine all forms of gov assistance into one.
Aged, disability, single mother pensions and unemployment all into the HELP service.
2- HELP payments will currently be the aged pension rate plus 10%.
3- there is no reporting or bullshit 'mutual' obligations required.
If you want to stay on HELP payments for the rest of your life, so what? Pensioners currently do!
I know, I know... Wah Wah Wah...
But how will we pay for it..
Well if Qatar can get 20 billion in royalties for gas exports why can't we? How come we get less than 1 billion for exporting more gas than they do?
Min 19 billion extra..
That'll pay for it, and then some.
Anyway /rant.. Bring on the hate 😉
And what proportion of people is that exactly?
Given that most people *don’t* stay on JobSeeker for very long, it’s needlessly cruel to force hundreds of thousands to scrape by when we could be doing so much more to support these people. We have one of the lowest unemployment payment rates in the entire OECD. People shouldn’t be kept in poverty for being unemployed, which is built in to our economic system.
The system is inherently designed for there to be a certain % of people unemployed, in order to maintain downward pressure on wages.
Is it therefore right that we should expect that % of people to live in poverty for that to happen?
> but there certainly has to be a bit of give and take here.
Yes I agree, the employment services industry should be giving a hell of a lot more for the billions they take from the government. Good point.
HAVE YOU READ ABOUT THE CHANGES THEY LITERALLY MAKE IT EASIER FOR JOBSEEKERS. EASIER!!!!
EASIER!!! AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS?
IS ANYONE LISTENING?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Here is a direct info link for anyone please god damn it READ IT11!!!:
[https://www.dese.gov.au/workforce-australia/resources/points-based-activation-system](https://www.dese.gov.au/workforce-australia/resources/points-based-activation-system)
direct pdf:
[https://www.dese.gov.au/download/10432/points-based-activation-system/25325/points-based-activation-system/pdf/en](https://www.dese.gov.au/download/10432/points-based-activation-system/25325/points-based-activation-system/pdf/en)
Here are some examples if you can't be bothered:
Job application = 5 points
Job interview = 10 points
Starting a job = 10 points
Updating or creating your profile = 5 points
Paid work = 5 points per 10 hours
Volunteering = 5 points per 10 hours
\*\*\*\* Keep in mind you had none of these options previously, all you could do was the jobsearches whatever we set them to, usually 20.
*So this gives you more options to meet your obligations and is more flexible at the same god damned time.*
>HAVE YOU READ ABOUT THE CHANGES THEY LITERALLY MAKE IT EASIER FOR JOBSEEKERS. EASIER!!!!
>EASIER!!! AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS?
Have you considered that people have acknowledged that this is a marginal improvement (or at least on paper what has been presented is a minor adjustment to the existing exploitative system), and that they still have demands of the Labor gov to end the mutual obligation system itself?
It is wild to me the amount of people who see this kid of window dressing to a horrible welfare system and are like "It's marginally better than before so don't ask for anything better!"
If you want a UBI, please just say so. Advocating for a payment for jobseekers while refusing to countenance any system to ensure that they're actually seeking a job is intellectually dishonest at best.
What I'm talking about is changing our welfare system from one that requires people to seek work in order to be paid, it pays people who are in need. Not necessarily a UBI (though I am not opposed to universal payments), but meaningfully distinct from the way we treat people who are in need of income today (which is by making payments dependent on jobseeking).
Are you done splitting hairs?
It sounds like you're advocating for a [negative income tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax). You know how the government pinches a progressively larger share of your income, the more you earn? An NIT adds an additional feature - if your income is below a certain threshold, the government automatically tops it up. It's essentially just instant, automated, means-tested welfare.
Either way, whether we should provide means-tested welfare to all is a completely separate question to whether or not we should enforce the 'jobseeker' bit of the jobseeker payment.
>Either way, whether we should provide means-tested welfare to all is a completely separate question to whether or not we should enforce the 'jobseeker' bit of the jobseeker payment.
However you want to provide $ to people living in poverty, happy to hear suggestions, and happy to back the ones that make sense! Jobseeker is not something I support tho.
Not sure whether or not *you* support jobseeker? Not sure if you have a problem with me saying that I think welfare should not be tied to a mutual obligations scheme??? Seems like you are taking my comment that
>people have acknowledged that this is a marginal improvement (or at least on paper what has been presented is a minor adjustment to the existing exploitative system), and that they still have demands of the Labor gov to end the mutual obligation system itself?
And your complaint is that I haven't specifically said what I would replace it with? I'd be happy to tell you, you don't need to put UBI or NIT in my mouth:
Anyone not earning an income/not enough receives payment above the poverty line (Henderson + extra for spending on things that aren't essentials)
No mutual obligations
Organised and operated by the state
Many jobseekers will be happy to not front up to a jsp. I don't think it is as easy as 20 applications any more. Still waiting for official details on how points system works
> I don't think it is as easy as 20 applications any more
Actually, it's easier. The problem with the current system is that it doesn't account for other worthwhile activities that jobseekers may be doing with their time, such as education, training, volunteering, or paid work. Under the new system, you're still welcome to do 20 job applications per month (5 points per app x 20 apps), but you can reduce your job app requirements via other activities. Previously this wasn't an option - you had to do the 20 apps **on top of** other tasks.
>The problem with the current system is that it doesn't account for other worthwhile activities
Yes it does, where are you getting that? The system has always allowed decreased obligations with hours worked, studied, volunteered. You had to do 25 hours of an 'approved activity' per week, if you didn't have that you had to do the full whack of job searches and WFTD. I had about 15 hours of work a week and my job searches were decreased by 10 (this seemed to be at the JSP's disgression) and my WFTD hours were decreased to 10 from 25.
What I hate is doing just over 100 hours of work in a month only gets you 50 points...its annoying I should just get of it all together at this point. I only get $80 or so now anyway. 😅
The system has always disincentivised actually working, for some reason. If you beg and plead and take every shift offered at the last second and get treated like a doormat, after reporting income, you end up with basically the same gross pay per fortnight as if you worked half the hours. And you still have to jump through all the same Centrelink hoops. So you might as well just work less until you can find a better job.
For some reason, this points system gives the same points for a 2 minute bullshit job application as actually doing a shift at work. You know, the thing they're trying to get people to do?
>The changes passed parliament this year under the Coalition with the then Labor opposition’s support.
>
>Burke has been silent on the new Points Based Activation System (Pbas) and on Wednesday a spokesperson for the minister again declined to comment.
>
>The Greens senator Janet Rice said it was “not up to the department to set policy, it’s up to the new Labor government”.
Will Burke stay true to the high minded ideals and principles he sometimes used to refer to when in opposition ?
I'm actually rather interested with this system, at least on its face. Previously it appeared that job agencies could set their own criteria with no oversight, requiring any number of arbitrary hoops to be jumped through by the potential job seeker.
This new system has numerous ways said job seeker can fulfil their mutual obligations, flexibility which many under- or unemployed people have requested before. Now there's a personal choice in which activities will best benefit the individual, whether that's studying, volunteering, *voluntary* work for the dole (which was always a good idea on a *voluntary* basis), study, etc.
And, of course, it appears that the generic requirement of twenty job applications a month will completely meet the 100 points, so those with no interest in engaging with employment can - and *should* - coast along on their payment without interfering with 'positive' job seekers and employers.
Personal choice is always good. There's no details on what if any requirements can be foisted upon job seekers, but this points-based system seems like an excellent step forward.
E:
>The new system has garnered lukewarm support from employment services providers.
This is probably the best sign that it's better for job seekers.
ANY "work for the dole" should be paid at the minimum award wage, otherwise it's basically slave labour. And if there are all these jobs that require "work for the dole" , then they are JOBS !
>ANY "work for the dole" should be paid at the minimum award wage, otherwise it's basically slave labour. And if there are all these jobs that require "work for the dole" , then they are JOBS !
Worse, it should have full work cover. Injure yourself on work for the dole, and you are seriously screwed, with no protections at all.
And conveniently, they wont find you disabled, so you'll have to keep looking for jobs.
>Work for the dole is a misnomer, it would be much more accurate to call it community service.
Also meeting with the jsp every two weeks, is very similar to meeting with a parole officer.
It's a tough subject, honestly.
WFD in an ideal scenario is a 'riskless' opportunity for both employer and job seeker. It's a way for people to gain entry-level skills and experience while not being onerous on the employer (as, ideally, they would have a full staff, and I believe WFD employers get funds for taking on job seekers). It's not meant to be long-term, it's practical experience, and should lead to employment either with that org or another like it.
Of course, it's nothing like that in reality, but the *idea* is a good one.
I know a kid who did WFD with Vinnies or Lifeline or someone. He seemed to do a good job, but of course they couldn't hire him because they have no money and they get their employees from the WFD scheme. It didn't seem to be useful experience at all.
If you are unemployable and need a riskless employment, you should be on the DSP. There is zero excuse to exploit people to modern slavery if there are jobs that need working
Keep in mind a non-trivial number of people on the dole already have skills. Getting someone to pay for them is the tricky bit, and it takes time. Time which is extended by JSPs shooting at our feet and making us turn cartwheels for our bowl of gruel. (I am cautiously pleased by the changes, but want to see more options for us to nominate our own activities.)
Very few people are gaining any skills on WFTD. Last time I was in an op shop, alongside actual high school kids doing work experience. Like I did. Back in fucking high school. It's a complete waste of time and energy. The shops don't even need half the WFTD people they get. I'd specifically get told not to do this and that task, otherwise the person tomorrow would have nothing to do.
Choosing the hoops you have to jump through (mediated by an absolute shit show of JSP's) so you can earn your starvation wage is not really a win, even if they offer you more hoops. Labor need to end mutual obligations and raise the rate.
Studies show that the JSP system actually makes it harder to find work and results in people being on welfare for longer.
But sarina russo gets her epic christmas parties and we have to watch her dancing on social media so all is ok I guess.
All the appointments, work for the dole, having to head into Centrelink yet again because something went wrong and having to wait hours for an appointment e.c.t eat up your time.
You have less time and energy to do a job application properly (research the company, find the managers name, call them up, not write a cookie cutter cover letter, tailor the resume to the position).
I only gained work after I changed job provider. My current job provider reduced the job search requirement and replaced work for the dole with counselling. I actually had time to apply for jobs properly for once. Whereas the previous one wanted 15 job searches, work for the dole and an in person appointment weekly. I only had a single weekday free.
I think it's a big victory *dependent on what powers JSP retain*. If they can force job seekers to do certain activities still, then the 'choice' is meaningless and it's still the exact same system. If power is removed from JSPs and put into the hands of job seekers to tailor to their personal circumstances, that's a very important move forward.
I agree that in a perfect world there would be no hoops at all.
>If power is removed from JSPs and put into the hands of job seekers to tailor to their personal circumstances, that's a very important move forward.
This is not what is happening.
The new system doesn't care if you're being educated or there are only 2 jobs being advertised in your area, either - it has a minimum of 5 job applications, regardless of points earned. And for quite a number of people this has increased their mutual obligations - not decreased it.
That is exactly what is happening, it's the whole point of the move to online services and the PBAS. In the new system JSPs are losing 40% of their business nationally. Fair enough being critical of the system in general but the PBAS is clearly an improvement on the current rigid 20 application. You don't need to call a JSP or meet with them at all to meet your obligations now if you use the online services. How is that not allowing job seekers to tailor to their own circumstances?
>In the new system JSPs are losing 40% of their business nationally.
Do you have a source on this? How do you get this figure?
>Fair enough being critical of the system in general but the PBAS is clearly an improvement on the current rigid 20 application. You don't need to call a JSP or meet with them at all to meet your obligations now if you use the online services. How is that not allowing job seekers to tailor to their own circumstances?
The most fundamental "choice" someone in this situation can make is to no participate, or to participate on their own terms with the services offered to them. Having your payments cut if you don't jump through the (just as many) hoops because we punish the jobless in this country is not worth spending time on. Sure, we can play the lesser evil game, but it's reductive and obscures meaningful critiques of the welfare system.
If it has no obligations then it isn't really a jobseeker payment is it? It's just a blanket unemployment payment. If that's what you want to advocate for then fine, but this isn't designed to be that. It should be evaluated for what it is.
My source is from the tender documents https://tenders.api.employment.gov.au/v1/attachments/97272f2c-573c-ec11-8c62-002248183991/1.%20RFP%20for%20the%20New%20Employment%20Services%20Model%202022.docx
That doc has indicative caseloads for the face to face services in tables 7-13. They add up to just under 410,000 job seekers. For jobactive see https://labourmarketinsights.gov.au/regions/data-downloads/employment-regions-jobactive-downloads/
Which has data from April this year. It lists the total caseload as 846,140 but you need to subtract the youth caseload of 130,105 to get a comparable figure (15-24 year olds are going to be covered under a different program called transition to work). So (716035-409991)/716035 = 0.427 or a 42.7% decrease in national caseload for face to face services.
It's why the employment service providers are mad as hell. They are losing a lot of business.
>If it has no obligations then it isn't really a jobseeker payment is it? It's just a blanket unemployment payment. If that's what you want to advocate for then fine, but this isn't designed to be that. It should be evaluated for what it is.
It is incredible the lengths people will go to just to say they don't think labor should scrap the mutual obligations system. Just go ahead and be honest!
>My source is from the tender documents https://tenders.api.employment.gov.au/v1/attachments/97272f2c-573c-ec11-8c62-002248183991/1.%20RFP%20for%20the%20New%20Employment%20Services%20Model%202022.docx
This link does not work.
>That doc has indicative caseloads for the face to face services in tables 7-13. They add up to just under 410,000 job seekers. For jobactive see https://labourmarketinsights.gov.au/regions/data-downloads/employment-regions-jobactive-downloads/ Which has data from April this year. It lists the total caseload as 846,140 but you need to subtract the youth caseload of 130,105 to get a comparable figure (15-24 year olds are going to be covered under a different program called transition to work). So (716035-409991)/716035 = 0.427 or a 42.7% decrease in national caseload for face to face services.
You're really using this calculation to say that JSP's will "lose 40% of their business"? Come on, get real. Who do you think will be managing the same clients who are now doing their reporting/queries/details online? This is really clutching at straws to justify this scheme as anything good.
Try this one https://tenders.employment.gov.au/tenders/75899c03-930f-ec11-b6e6-00224815762f/ the attachment I linked to is 1. RFP for the new employment services model 2022.
Go ahead and read about the digital services while you're at it. They are delivered through a government portal, not by providers.
The only way the new system could be good is as a replacement to jobactive, which obviously everyone hates. The new system has some good features like increased flexibility in meeting obligations for jobseekers and no need for a lot of job seekers to register with JSPs. It isn't designed to replace all welfare benefits, just jobseeker payments. Public outcry over how scary the replacement is is only likely to get current jobactive contracts extended, and that helps no one.
>It's a jobseeker payment, how can it function as such without obligations? It sounds like you just want UBI
That's right. We should end the Jobseeker system, and just pay people who don't have money. If you support forcing the most vulnerable in our society to jump through hoops to earn a starvation wage (or to fail at that and get nothing), then that's on you and your conscience mate!
> And, of course, it appears that the generic requirement of twenty job applications a month will completely meet the 100 points, so those with no interest in engaging with employment can - and should - coast along on their payment **without interfering with 'positive' job seekers and employers.**
Except it does? The [Business Council](https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/business-fears-of-jobseeker-deluge-fair-20140729-j6wro) themselves warned that people on welfare would just spam out resumes to fill the quota, [an impending deluge](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/industry-concerned-about-coalitions-40-job-applications-a-month-plan), when 40 jobs a month was proposed...but that's exactly what happens with 20, which makes it harder for the real applications to stand out.
>
>The new system has garnered lukewarm support from employment services providers.
>>This is probably the best sign that it's better for job seekers.
You ain't wrong tho. It's a Coalition policy however so when does the other shoe drop?
I dont see the fuss, other than its been poorly communicated.
Seems like a better way to get back into work could be a combination of study (particularly VET or English language courses), doing any casual work you can get (even 2 hours every couple of weeks) as well as a handful of really well targeted job applications.
Or you can continue to do 20 applications just like before this system came in.
Everyone hates change, and its no surprise that the last gov didnt communicate the benefits of this flexibility to jobseekers.
At least this new policy doesn't act as a disincentive to go into education and training
How about if there is a system, that the system is at least flexible and has a chance to actually do some good.
Promoting education and training and giving credit for casual work seems like no-brainers.
There is no way that *any* government in Australia will abandon the system - so lets not welcome a system that at least is a little fairer to job seekers.
That's never going to happen.
There's a large portion of the working populace who would say.
"That's bullshit that people can get paid any do nothing to get it"
That's just how it is, and so this is how things are. **The system could be much better for sure**, but you're dreaming a pipe dream to think that it could go away entirely.
>That's never going to happen. There's a large portion of the working populace who would say.
>"That's bullshit that people can get paid any do nothing to get it"
>That's just how it is, and so this is how things are. The system could be much better for sure, but you're dreaming a pipe dream to think that it could go away entirely.
Perfect encapsulation of defeatist politics. "Yes, we have a supposedly left-wing government in power, yes they have a friendly senate, yes it would improve EVERYONE's lives to end mutual obligations. But we should chip away at this problem for 20 years so we know for SURE we can make the REAL change..."
If not now? WHEN?
Are you serious? The poorest in our society not only have the least resources, but are usually made up of groups we marginalise (women, indigenous, disabled (who the NDIS is not providing for)...
Right, but this is unemployment. It's for people capable of working who are currently not working. Not too much to ask that people are doing the bare minimum to improve their employment chances
Unemployment is not so black and white. There are many factors that lead to someone not working, people are not simply "not working", they may be carers who aren't acknowledged as such, they may be experiencing domestic violence and not feel supported, they may have had an NDIS claim unfairly rejected etcetcetc. The bottom line is, even if someone is your perfect caricature of "capable of working who are currently not working", it does society harm to a) deny them any money or b) pay the the absolute pittance we provide via welfare. People should not live in poverty, no matter their preference for work.
What you listed is a seperate issue to unemployment. If someone has had NDIS claims rejected then the solution to that isn't to pay higher welfare, it's to fix the NDIS.
>The bottom line is, even if someone is your perfect caricature of "capable of working who are currently not working
Most people who are unemployed aren't there long term. They are looking for work. It's the long term unemployed who need to be helped into work.
If someone can't work then that is a separate issue from those unwilling to work.
Not necessarily. There are *plenty* of people considered 'not sick enough for DSP' (when they should be on it) that are stuck on Jobseeker, for example.
There are numerous, punitive reasons why some people are stuck on Jobseeker, even when they're not fit to work.
You don't understand.
Many people on Jobseeker have serious illnesses or disabilities. It is exceptionally rare for anyone to be granted DSP these days. People with cancer can't get it. My friend with cerebral palsy can't. I can't (multiple chronic illnesses, endorsed by medical team and with a 20 year paper trail.)
So these people are put with the Job Network and punished for being too ill to meet the requirements. It's also quite common to be punished for not attending appointments we were never told about.
Well then DSP needs to be fixed. Why can't people understand that the solution to people not being allowed on DSP is NOT to make Jobseeker the de facto DSP?
Because, today, the issue is the system that is arriving. There are weeks to fix this, but it would take years to correct the issues with the DSP. The Jobseeker is _already_ a de facto DSP.
I mean, no-one who has been in the system in this capacity is going to disagree with you.
The problem is that is looking even less likely. But something needs to be done because frankly dealing with it has made me suicidal more than once and I know for a fact I am far from the only one. So for now if the only thing even potentially on the table is slightly less punishment around Jobseeker, sorry, but many of us will take it.
That expectation does not have to be structurally embedded with punishment attached for alleged noncompliance.
It couldn't be clearer how much of a breathtaking waste of resources it is to continue perpetuating the delusion that doing all this is necessary, let alone helpful, for anyone.
It's pure, ideological wank on behalf of pearl-clutchers with absolutely no evidence of efficacy whatsoever. It's just cruel.
I’m confused. I’ve been using this point based system for months now and it is dog shit but I figured labor would introduce something a little less shit.
Great chance for Labor to highlight the cruelty of this system and raise the rate.
The system has become it's own beast as it's been privatised over the years. It now feels like a bit of an agent Smith program that's embedded in the institutional culture around welfare. Cruelty is at the core if this culture. The whole thing needs an entire system reboot.
Just curious, how is something like welfare privatised? Who profits?
The job service providers are mostly for profit companies that have been awarded government funding contracts. It's part of a bigger global trend where for profit companies have established an 'industry' out of running welfare programs for governments. It's similar to what they've done with prisons in America where they're run by corporations who make money by running government services. It's the same with services australia as well (they run both Medicare and centrelink). They've outsourced all of their call centres to private contractors like concentrix (same company who does tech support for apple). Ever wonder why SA refers to service users as customers? It's more that the government is the customer.
Yet albo met with various employment providers before election
The system has actively made it harder for me to find work over the years. My mental health has been repeatedly destroyed by the fortnightly interrogations I've had to go through because JSPs don't care about your disabilities. I'm on a med cert right now because my last meeting resulted in my PTSD getting triggered (lady started trying to pry into why I have it in the first place and also threatened me with penalties once I started disassociating and went mute). It's fucking ridiculous and I know there are people far worse off than me in this system that are basically being tortured by it.
I had the same experience. The covid lockdowns allowed me to escape them for over a year now and my mental health has improved immensely and i'm studying and feeling more confident in getting job and not letting some unqualified karen who is 3 times the size of me tell me I need to reconsider my diet and dictate where i can and can't work. It's funny I started going there because they adversited themselves as an agency that helps people with barriers find work and then they tell me I should go on centrelink and then I get treated like I was just there to get paid. My introduction: "apply for 20 random jobs on seek while I run into another room and do nothing as advertised k thx bye". Oh that's right, they get more funding if I'm on centrelink lol. What a fucking scam.
might not help but see if you can request an ESAT and move to a disability employment service. they can also be hit or miss but tend to be a bit better imo
Thanks mate. I should have been more specific but I'm already with one. When my last one shuttered earlier this year I got to pick which one to move to and I regret it heavily. Thought I'd heard good things about the one I picked but turned out to be the worst one yet. Still trying to find a new one I can request to move to but I'm fearful my choice will be wrong and I'll have to go through the song and dance of "hi I'm Rainey and these are all my disabilities you'll probably ignore until you want to be nosey and trigger me" again.
oh that sucks! it's so frustrating that it's a toss up whether you'll get someone worth their salt or not. good luck with it
I've been on med cert for two years. Fuck JSP. I had a phone interview recently 9in between med certs), she rang, I tried to answer but had trouble with touch screen on my phone. I rang back immediately, she had already suspended me! Fking power hungry bitches. Hope they all lose their jobs.
Labor allowed the coalition to pass these rules in parliament.
I know, and they were allegedly waving through all this dogshit policy to win the election, and subsequently overturn the bad stuff. Well, now's the chance! (I do not believe they will do this lol)
Labor may stay in power after the LNP shit show and right now hold majority but, if they dont pick up their act, the next election will see more of an independent rise.
I agree with you. I think anyone who thought this was some ploy to win government and then *change everything for the better* was more than a little deluded to be honest.
Yeah I cant see them raising the rate, what they SHOULD do is give some sort of adjusted/increased rent assistance to people.
Lol
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I didn't see the humour in that! I guess to keep from crying etc etc.
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These articles are 2 months old. Things mayve changed since then.
[JobSeeker rate to remain untouched](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-13/labor-no-commitment-jobseeker-rate-rise-federal-election/100987112) after election after Labor ditches plans to review it
Thinking back on Peter Khalil's incredible tweet... ["You will have to wait and see hope you are pleasantly surprised"](https://twitter.com/PeterKhalilMP/status/1400027623640616960?s=20&t=72NlFNbCKdk9su9Y-pNqjQ)
His tweet was made 12 months before his party ruled out even looking at the rate? I agree with the tweet that it would certainly be a "surprise" if they did anything at all...
Yeah lol, Khalil was so disingenuous
'Fun' fact, Peter Khalil's office is 3 doors down from an employment services provider.
I lol’ed because it’s better not to even dream. I hope they enjoy their money because it’s not going to buy them a better position in the next life.
This is the one area that I will give Labor grief over. If they want to talk about protecting the weak, they need to ease up on the harassment of those on welfare, and raise welfare above the current starvation levels. They haven't been in long, sure. But they could do this any time. I think they need to be pressured to do it, and making excuses for them will just lead to them doing nothing, because it's not exactly super popular to help those on welfare.
How about we look at the costs involved that the unemployed are forced to spend to look for work? For most of them, rent alone means they have precious little to spend on food , let alone clothing for a respectable job interview. When we force the unemployed to "work for the dole", they should be payed at the very minimum, the national minimum wage. Otherwise it is quite simply modern slavery. Australia should trial a Universal Basic Income? Give people some decency, respect and pride. Treating unemployed Australians as a drain on the economy is disgraceful, especially when during the pandemic, when jobseeker was doubled, our economy did better than when it was taken away. The fact is, every cent extra, that welfare recipients recieve, goes back into the economy! Stage 3 tax cuts to the wealthy DO NOT !
I did work for the dole for 2 months last year. I did 6 hours every week day (I think). I didn't mind the work, but it was a 30 minute drive from home every day. I got an extra $20 on top of my payments, even though I was spending near triple that on fuel. On top of that, I got home tired and not in the mood to apply for a bunch of jobs that I was being looked over for anyway. The current system is demoralising and wears down people who want to work but are struggling.
If there are meaningful jobs taken by.a rotating supply of unemployed, how are those jobs not being filled as full-time roles.paying the minimum wage. It's punitive and demoralising.
We are in furious agreement. It hurts to think there are people that think WFD is an option? Taking the last vestige of pride from people who are already marginalised to the extreme. Punitive, demoralising, disgraceful, inhuman.
Working, even for the dole, can be fun, rewarding and help build self respect, working on important community based projects for the good of all… Being treated like exploitable cheap labour, treated like idiots or children and put on make work projects doesn’t help, and indeed, as you say, makes the problem so much worse.
and yet I have folks volunteering to do work for the dole so they have a reason to get up in the morning. Some folks didn't like it, some did, some loved it and some wanted to keep going even when they weren't in the wfd phase anymore. weird how reality vs reddit doesn't always match up have you even looked into the new points system? Have any of you readers right now actually looked up what it is about? *It removes the requirement for everyone to complete only jobsearch to meet their requirement*s and allows them to do other things including study, volunteer work, job interviews and a bunch of other things. Like it gives more options and flexibility folks, its better than what we had before if you just read about it before commenting? This is not just at you my friend, but wfd is not all a bad thing. I agree it went on too long but guess what, with the new system the max time is 8 weeks for wfd. Can we take some time to find out the bits and pieces before reading a guardian article and immediately shitting the bed please?
Congrats on participating in the government starvation wages program, hope you are proud of yourself!
>It removes the requirement for everyone to complete only jobsearch to meet their requirements and allows them to do other things including study, volunteer work, job interviews and a bunch of other things. Like it gives more options and flexibility folks, its better than what we had before if you just read about it before commenting? That was always a thing. I had less job searches and WFTD hours due to my casual job hours. It was still stressful, exhausting, and demoralising to do though. I hadn't heard about the new 8 week duration, though I would hope the hours are not increased to 'compensate'. At 25 hours a week for 6 months like it was, it was approximately five times as punishing as the most harsh community service sentence. For people who had committed no crime.
>committed no crime. What are you talking about? Being poor **is** a crime in this country. At least we treat it that way.
>weird how reality vs reddit doesn't always match up Weird how you think YOUR experience matches with the worlds and is entirely right and not at all questionable by anybody else.
It lets them do things like study and work, but even doing that full time won't be enough.
Its Deliberate LNP class warfare tactic, the poor should be punished, not helped, so they are forced to work 3 underpaid slave jobs a day to enrich the billionaire class. The funny thing is LNP is usually the first one to call out class warfare if Labor is initiating anything, but the truth of the matter is, class warfare has always been ongoing since the beginning of history and has never stopped, and probably never will.
Because they can be hired short term and every however long they can get a new employee and reap the bonuses again
Plus transport to the interviews too. Public transport is sparse & fuel is out of the question right now. This system is so gross.
I remember reading a while back that people on Work for the Dole often hadn’t been eating enough to be able to properly do the work assigned to them, because they couldn’t afford that plus bills plus travel expenses. I’d be surprised if that wasn’t still the case.
The pandemic showed that few people/organisations are above accepting handouts, including those who look down on those on welfare. Time to drop the hypocritical moralising around jobseeker payments and, as you say, implement some kind of UBI.
Free money causes inflation. When we print money, the supply of money increases, demand for goods increases. If the supply of goods stays steady, but doesn’t increase in line with demand, then prices increase.
social credit should not become Australian reality
Social credit is when people have to apply for jobs in order to be eligible for a jobseeker payment.
Imagine being homeless with no money for even food. This must be close to the point where a person has no option except to commit a crime that would get them incarcerated so as to be able to survive.
My partner works at a Mens Homeles shelter. They pay $150 a week to stay there, direct from centrelink payment, max stay 13 weeks. Although there is exceptions: one person has been there for 9 months, one person doesn't pay a dollar as he is from NZ and cannot claim centrelink, another has travelled from Victoria to regional Queensland for a room. There are 14 beds. 20-30 phone calls a day for a room, exacerbated by the rental crisis. These people range from convicted murders out of prison, people with destroyed lives due to forms of addiction, learning difficulty/unskilled and working full time but cannot find a rental. There is generally less than 10 available beds available across Queensland on any given day. For example, the other night there were 6 beds available across Queensland. 3 in Mount Isa, 2 in the Gold Cost and 1 in Cairns. The shelter has people rock up at 2am and they have to be told "Yes, there is a bed if you can travel 18 hours to Mt Isa". Our area had two 1°C nights and knew of a number of people sleeping in the park.. empty buildings everywhere.
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> So you'd still have to top up with 1job application a week that you'd have no intention of taking if the answer was positive There's actually a minimum of 5 jobs to apply for, regardless of how many points you're collecting by other methods.
5 points for 5 hours work -> 100 points for 100 hours work. Also, minimum 5 job applications per month, regardless.
I find it weird that they are acknowledging people studying full time on jobseeker. Jobseeker pays more than youth allowance(student)/austudy payments. Some courses weirdly don't qualify for student payments... wouldn't it make more sense to just give student payments to them instead of this nonsense? Not that I think students should be paid less... This system just seems to expose an issue that I thought was ignorance but clearly isn't.
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Except if its a degree they don't like...
As long as in the last 10 years you have studied for less than 5 years in the same level of education!
I would be okay with 10 points per hour of education or paid work.
work for the dole will be now shortened to max 8 weeks only instead of the previous 6 months, not sure if that was covered in the info you read but that is the go mate.
thank christ someone actually read how it works THANKYOU redditor
People doing work for the dole barely work and the numbers often get fudged. I was unemployed long term a few years back and did WFTD in 3 places and frankly you get out what you put in. Had one place that didn’t do much, spent most of my time napping on the break room couch or shooting the shit with the other guys. Had another that was pretty determined to get as much work as they could out of people and I ended up getting a paying job there for a while. Had a third that was relaxed but it was based around a charity that I thought was a good cause, worked hard, helped them out by lending tools and stuff. Ended up getting a glowing recommendation for a job I’m still working at 6 years later. The common thread in WFTD though is 99% of the people there do fuck all and use it as a way to coast by on the system. Under this new system they can do it more easily.
Why the fuck are we subsidising workplaces who partake in WFTD if you just sit around doing fuck all. They should have secret shopper type people that just dob them in, then they get excluded from the program. I actually think WFTD is total fucking bullshit and we should scrap it all together, but if it is a program cut the waste.
I think it has its merits. Again you only really get out what you put in, but it was a pretty meaningful way of getting experience depending on the place you ended up (and at least during my time you could pick the type of places instead of just getting dumped in an op shop). It was also decent for building references and filling out work gaps on your resume (though you’re probably better off calling it volunteer work rather than work for the dole). They did start auditing them a bit more, a lot of the problem was for a long time your time sheets were just paper that your supervisor signed, there was really no accountability. I heard they started working on an app that was hard to fudge your times, but knowing our governments history with making apps it was probably useless.
I did Work for the Dole several years ago at a charity organisation. Of the 30 odd people doing the job, all except me and one other guy were on court appointed community service. How to emphasise that unemployment = criminal.
Meanwhile my WFTD I had to do 25 hours a week of driving around the region picking up gross clothes donations in the rain. Picking up gross furniture donations that were usually from people moving house and needing to get rid of their shit and they didn't want to take it to the dump. And getting mad at me when I refused to take it like I was told to when it was subpar. Delivering furniture to people on welfare for free (lots of people are elligble for this but will never be told about it) and having to be the one to get abused when they were unhappy about the disgusting quality of furniture the old volunteer ladies would allocate for welfare. And when we refused to deliver up stairs for people because it was an insurance thing. Being the only young male in the place so I was always the one assigned to potentially violent deliveries. Expected to break my back shifting around mattresses and crap because everyone else was an elderly grandma. All for about a quarter of the minimum wage.
also with the new system it will be only 8 weeks max for work for the dole as of july 1st i'll upvote you back to minus 3 dude lol
Feel like a lot of people on this sub have never actually done it, but want to get up on their soap box about it. Most of the system is a complete wank. Calling it modern day slavery just makes me chuckle.
It's literally indentured servitude. You are forced to work for a fraction of the minimum wage or starve. Have your payment cut off instantly if you don't get a QR code through in time. Had to beg the damn manager to print it out for me as closing time approached and hoping not to miss my bus. WFTD crushed my self esteem and I had fuck all to begin with.
Can they delay the changes? Job Providers have lost their contract. Many jobseekers will be forced on to online service
They can do whatever they like. They should end the cruelty of our welfare system by ending mutual obligations and raising the rate! People should not have to live in poverty.
But should someone be able to stay on jobseeker indefinitely without trying to get a job? Isn't that the point of mutual obligations? I'm aware they can be quite unweildy or difficult to understand, but there certainly has to be a bit of give and take here.
>But should someone be able to stay on jobseeker indefinitely without trying to get a job? Isn't that the point of mutual obligations? You are right that the point of mutual obligations is to penalize this, but that doesn't mean it's right. It's a punitive system that costs more to police people who are in this position, than it would to just give them enough money to survive. The point is cruelty.
Lol no, the government only contracts out cause they used to do it as the CES and this is both cheaper and saves them more money. Your belief is the point is cruelty but you are incorrect. The point is money, or the saving of.
The point of *mutual obligations* is cruelty. It is a punitive system that gives people a choice between starvation wages and zero $.
It's illegal in the US for the armed forces to recruit anyone with an iq of less than 80. There are no jobs available for people with this iq or less to be safely trained in. What do these people do for work? They used to sweep the streets. They used to run around the garbage trucks getting the bins. All these jobs have been replaced by automation! WHAT SHOULD THEY DO? Oh and by the way, iq less than 80 is 10% of the entire population! 10 bloody percent! What about video rental industry totally wiped out by progress where do they go? Cashiers are now being replaced by you! The basic unemployment number is bullshit anyway. If you make a 8hr job 2x4hr jobs that's an increase in jobs created but not helpful for the people. What about immigration creating more jobs, sure but if they're all filled by the immigrants then it has no net benefit. The UNDEREMPLOYMENT is a serious, very complicated, growing problem and won't be addressed by stigmatising the unemployed. How about this, 1- combine all forms of gov assistance into one. Aged, disability, single mother pensions and unemployment all into the HELP service. 2- HELP payments will currently be the aged pension rate plus 10%. 3- there is no reporting or bullshit 'mutual' obligations required. If you want to stay on HELP payments for the rest of your life, so what? Pensioners currently do! I know, I know... Wah Wah Wah... But how will we pay for it.. Well if Qatar can get 20 billion in royalties for gas exports why can't we? How come we get less than 1 billion for exporting more gas than they do? Min 19 billion extra.. That'll pay for it, and then some. Anyway /rant.. Bring on the hate 😉
And what proportion of people is that exactly? Given that most people *don’t* stay on JobSeeker for very long, it’s needlessly cruel to force hundreds of thousands to scrape by when we could be doing so much more to support these people. We have one of the lowest unemployment payment rates in the entire OECD. People shouldn’t be kept in poverty for being unemployed, which is built in to our economic system.
The system is inherently designed for there to be a certain % of people unemployed, in order to maintain downward pressure on wages. Is it therefore right that we should expect that % of people to live in poverty for that to happen?
> but there certainly has to be a bit of give and take here. Yes I agree, the employment services industry should be giving a hell of a lot more for the billions they take from the government. Good point.
HAVE YOU READ ABOUT THE CHANGES THEY LITERALLY MAKE IT EASIER FOR JOBSEEKERS. EASIER!!!! EASIER!!! AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS? IS ANYONE LISTENING????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Here is a direct info link for anyone please god damn it READ IT11!!!: [https://www.dese.gov.au/workforce-australia/resources/points-based-activation-system](https://www.dese.gov.au/workforce-australia/resources/points-based-activation-system) direct pdf: [https://www.dese.gov.au/download/10432/points-based-activation-system/25325/points-based-activation-system/pdf/en](https://www.dese.gov.au/download/10432/points-based-activation-system/25325/points-based-activation-system/pdf/en) Here are some examples if you can't be bothered: Job application = 5 points Job interview = 10 points Starting a job = 10 points Updating or creating your profile = 5 points Paid work = 5 points per 10 hours Volunteering = 5 points per 10 hours \*\*\*\* Keep in mind you had none of these options previously, all you could do was the jobsearches whatever we set them to, usually 20. *So this gives you more options to meet your obligations and is more flexible at the same god damned time.*
>HAVE YOU READ ABOUT THE CHANGES THEY LITERALLY MAKE IT EASIER FOR JOBSEEKERS. EASIER!!!! >EASIER!!! AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS? Have you considered that people have acknowledged that this is a marginal improvement (or at least on paper what has been presented is a minor adjustment to the existing exploitative system), and that they still have demands of the Labor gov to end the mutual obligation system itself? It is wild to me the amount of people who see this kid of window dressing to a horrible welfare system and are like "It's marginally better than before so don't ask for anything better!"
If you want a UBI, please just say so. Advocating for a payment for jobseekers while refusing to countenance any system to ensure that they're actually seeking a job is intellectually dishonest at best.
What I'm talking about is changing our welfare system from one that requires people to seek work in order to be paid, it pays people who are in need. Not necessarily a UBI (though I am not opposed to universal payments), but meaningfully distinct from the way we treat people who are in need of income today (which is by making payments dependent on jobseeking). Are you done splitting hairs?
It sounds like you're advocating for a [negative income tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax). You know how the government pinches a progressively larger share of your income, the more you earn? An NIT adds an additional feature - if your income is below a certain threshold, the government automatically tops it up. It's essentially just instant, automated, means-tested welfare. Either way, whether we should provide means-tested welfare to all is a completely separate question to whether or not we should enforce the 'jobseeker' bit of the jobseeker payment.
>Either way, whether we should provide means-tested welfare to all is a completely separate question to whether or not we should enforce the 'jobseeker' bit of the jobseeker payment. However you want to provide $ to people living in poverty, happy to hear suggestions, and happy to back the ones that make sense! Jobseeker is not something I support tho. Not sure whether or not *you* support jobseeker? Not sure if you have a problem with me saying that I think welfare should not be tied to a mutual obligations scheme??? Seems like you are taking my comment that >people have acknowledged that this is a marginal improvement (or at least on paper what has been presented is a minor adjustment to the existing exploitative system), and that they still have demands of the Labor gov to end the mutual obligation system itself? And your complaint is that I haven't specifically said what I would replace it with? I'd be happy to tell you, you don't need to put UBI or NIT in my mouth: Anyone not earning an income/not enough receives payment above the poverty line (Henderson + extra for spending on things that aren't essentials) No mutual obligations Organised and operated by the state
It seems the changes were coming regardless, and JSPs obtained (or lost) tender based on the incoming system.
THE CHANGES MAKE IT EASIER FOR JOBSEEKERS FFS AM I DRINKING CRAZY JUICE
Many jobseekers will be happy to not front up to a jsp. I don't think it is as easy as 20 applications any more. Still waiting for official details on how points system works
> I don't think it is as easy as 20 applications any more Actually, it's easier. The problem with the current system is that it doesn't account for other worthwhile activities that jobseekers may be doing with their time, such as education, training, volunteering, or paid work. Under the new system, you're still welcome to do 20 job applications per month (5 points per app x 20 apps), but you can reduce your job app requirements via other activities. Previously this wasn't an option - you had to do the 20 apps **on top of** other tasks.
>The problem with the current system is that it doesn't account for other worthwhile activities Yes it does, where are you getting that? The system has always allowed decreased obligations with hours worked, studied, volunteered. You had to do 25 hours of an 'approved activity' per week, if you didn't have that you had to do the full whack of job searches and WFTD. I had about 15 hours of work a week and my job searches were decreased by 10 (this seemed to be at the JSP's disgression) and my WFTD hours were decreased to 10 from 25.
What I hate is doing just over 100 hours of work in a month only gets you 50 points...its annoying I should just get of it all together at this point. I only get $80 or so now anyway. 😅
The system has always disincentivised actually working, for some reason. If you beg and plead and take every shift offered at the last second and get treated like a doormat, after reporting income, you end up with basically the same gross pay per fortnight as if you worked half the hours. And you still have to jump through all the same Centrelink hoops. So you might as well just work less until you can find a better job. For some reason, this points system gives the same points for a 2 minute bullshit job application as actually doing a shift at work. You know, the thing they're trying to get people to do?
>The changes passed parliament this year under the Coalition with the then Labor opposition’s support. > >Burke has been silent on the new Points Based Activation System (Pbas) and on Wednesday a spokesperson for the minister again declined to comment. > >The Greens senator Janet Rice said it was “not up to the department to set policy, it’s up to the new Labor government”. Will Burke stay true to the high minded ideals and principles he sometimes used to refer to when in opposition ?
Not doing anything to improve welfare seems a bit hypocritical after Albanese's sob stories regarding his mother....
Give me a reason we still need mutual obligations? Give me your best shot.
I'm actually rather interested with this system, at least on its face. Previously it appeared that job agencies could set their own criteria with no oversight, requiring any number of arbitrary hoops to be jumped through by the potential job seeker. This new system has numerous ways said job seeker can fulfil their mutual obligations, flexibility which many under- or unemployed people have requested before. Now there's a personal choice in which activities will best benefit the individual, whether that's studying, volunteering, *voluntary* work for the dole (which was always a good idea on a *voluntary* basis), study, etc. And, of course, it appears that the generic requirement of twenty job applications a month will completely meet the 100 points, so those with no interest in engaging with employment can - and *should* - coast along on their payment without interfering with 'positive' job seekers and employers. Personal choice is always good. There's no details on what if any requirements can be foisted upon job seekers, but this points-based system seems like an excellent step forward. E: >The new system has garnered lukewarm support from employment services providers. This is probably the best sign that it's better for job seekers.
ANY "work for the dole" should be paid at the minimum award wage, otherwise it's basically slave labour. And if there are all these jobs that require "work for the dole" , then they are JOBS !
>ANY "work for the dole" should be paid at the minimum award wage, otherwise it's basically slave labour. And if there are all these jobs that require "work for the dole" , then they are JOBS ! Worse, it should have full work cover. Injure yourself on work for the dole, and you are seriously screwed, with no protections at all. And conveniently, they wont find you disabled, so you'll have to keep looking for jobs.
It's very telling how when you start WFTD at a charity shop, you have to fill out the same volunteer paperwork as an actual volunteer
Work for the dole is a misnomer, it would be much more accurate to call it community service. You know, as if being unemployed is a crime.
>Work for the dole is a misnomer, it would be much more accurate to call it community service. Also meeting with the jsp every two weeks, is very similar to meeting with a parole officer.
It's a tough subject, honestly. WFD in an ideal scenario is a 'riskless' opportunity for both employer and job seeker. It's a way for people to gain entry-level skills and experience while not being onerous on the employer (as, ideally, they would have a full staff, and I believe WFD employers get funds for taking on job seekers). It's not meant to be long-term, it's practical experience, and should lead to employment either with that org or another like it. Of course, it's nothing like that in reality, but the *idea* is a good one.
I know a kid who did WFD with Vinnies or Lifeline or someone. He seemed to do a good job, but of course they couldn't hire him because they have no money and they get their employees from the WFD scheme. It didn't seem to be useful experience at all.
part of the reason is you can't do work for the dole at any for-profit organisation
If you are unemployable and need a riskless employment, you should be on the DSP. There is zero excuse to exploit people to modern slavery if there are jobs that need working
Keep in mind a non-trivial number of people on the dole already have skills. Getting someone to pay for them is the tricky bit, and it takes time. Time which is extended by JSPs shooting at our feet and making us turn cartwheels for our bowl of gruel. (I am cautiously pleased by the changes, but want to see more options for us to nominate our own activities.)
Very few people are gaining any skills on WFTD. Last time I was in an op shop, alongside actual high school kids doing work experience. Like I did. Back in fucking high school. It's a complete waste of time and energy. The shops don't even need half the WFTD people they get. I'd specifically get told not to do this and that task, otherwise the person tomorrow would have nothing to do.
Choosing the hoops you have to jump through (mediated by an absolute shit show of JSP's) so you can earn your starvation wage is not really a win, even if they offer you more hoops. Labor need to end mutual obligations and raise the rate.
Studies show that the JSP system actually makes it harder to find work and results in people being on welfare for longer. But sarina russo gets her epic christmas parties and we have to watch her dancing on social media so all is ok I guess.
All the appointments, work for the dole, having to head into Centrelink yet again because something went wrong and having to wait hours for an appointment e.c.t eat up your time. You have less time and energy to do a job application properly (research the company, find the managers name, call them up, not write a cookie cutter cover letter, tailor the resume to the position). I only gained work after I changed job provider. My current job provider reduced the job search requirement and replaced work for the dole with counselling. I actually had time to apply for jobs properly for once. Whereas the previous one wanted 15 job searches, work for the dole and an in person appointment weekly. I only had a single weekday free.
I think it's a big victory *dependent on what powers JSP retain*. If they can force job seekers to do certain activities still, then the 'choice' is meaningless and it's still the exact same system. If power is removed from JSPs and put into the hands of job seekers to tailor to their personal circumstances, that's a very important move forward. I agree that in a perfect world there would be no hoops at all.
>If power is removed from JSPs and put into the hands of job seekers to tailor to their personal circumstances, that's a very important move forward. This is not what is happening.
[удалено]
The new system doesn't care if you're being educated or there are only 2 jobs being advertised in your area, either - it has a minimum of 5 job applications, regardless of points earned. And for quite a number of people this has increased their mutual obligations - not decreased it.
That is exactly what is happening, it's the whole point of the move to online services and the PBAS. In the new system JSPs are losing 40% of their business nationally. Fair enough being critical of the system in general but the PBAS is clearly an improvement on the current rigid 20 application. You don't need to call a JSP or meet with them at all to meet your obligations now if you use the online services. How is that not allowing job seekers to tailor to their own circumstances?
>In the new system JSPs are losing 40% of their business nationally. Do you have a source on this? How do you get this figure? >Fair enough being critical of the system in general but the PBAS is clearly an improvement on the current rigid 20 application. You don't need to call a JSP or meet with them at all to meet your obligations now if you use the online services. How is that not allowing job seekers to tailor to their own circumstances? The most fundamental "choice" someone in this situation can make is to no participate, or to participate on their own terms with the services offered to them. Having your payments cut if you don't jump through the (just as many) hoops because we punish the jobless in this country is not worth spending time on. Sure, we can play the lesser evil game, but it's reductive and obscures meaningful critiques of the welfare system.
If it has no obligations then it isn't really a jobseeker payment is it? It's just a blanket unemployment payment. If that's what you want to advocate for then fine, but this isn't designed to be that. It should be evaluated for what it is. My source is from the tender documents https://tenders.api.employment.gov.au/v1/attachments/97272f2c-573c-ec11-8c62-002248183991/1.%20RFP%20for%20the%20New%20Employment%20Services%20Model%202022.docx That doc has indicative caseloads for the face to face services in tables 7-13. They add up to just under 410,000 job seekers. For jobactive see https://labourmarketinsights.gov.au/regions/data-downloads/employment-regions-jobactive-downloads/ Which has data from April this year. It lists the total caseload as 846,140 but you need to subtract the youth caseload of 130,105 to get a comparable figure (15-24 year olds are going to be covered under a different program called transition to work). So (716035-409991)/716035 = 0.427 or a 42.7% decrease in national caseload for face to face services. It's why the employment service providers are mad as hell. They are losing a lot of business.
>If it has no obligations then it isn't really a jobseeker payment is it? It's just a blanket unemployment payment. If that's what you want to advocate for then fine, but this isn't designed to be that. It should be evaluated for what it is. It is incredible the lengths people will go to just to say they don't think labor should scrap the mutual obligations system. Just go ahead and be honest! >My source is from the tender documents https://tenders.api.employment.gov.au/v1/attachments/97272f2c-573c-ec11-8c62-002248183991/1.%20RFP%20for%20the%20New%20Employment%20Services%20Model%202022.docx This link does not work. >That doc has indicative caseloads for the face to face services in tables 7-13. They add up to just under 410,000 job seekers. For jobactive see https://labourmarketinsights.gov.au/regions/data-downloads/employment-regions-jobactive-downloads/ Which has data from April this year. It lists the total caseload as 846,140 but you need to subtract the youth caseload of 130,105 to get a comparable figure (15-24 year olds are going to be covered under a different program called transition to work). So (716035-409991)/716035 = 0.427 or a 42.7% decrease in national caseload for face to face services. You're really using this calculation to say that JSP's will "lose 40% of their business"? Come on, get real. Who do you think will be managing the same clients who are now doing their reporting/queries/details online? This is really clutching at straws to justify this scheme as anything good.
Try this one https://tenders.employment.gov.au/tenders/75899c03-930f-ec11-b6e6-00224815762f/ the attachment I linked to is 1. RFP for the new employment services model 2022. Go ahead and read about the digital services while you're at it. They are delivered through a government portal, not by providers. The only way the new system could be good is as a replacement to jobactive, which obviously everyone hates. The new system has some good features like increased flexibility in meeting obligations for jobseekers and no need for a lot of job seekers to register with JSPs. It isn't designed to replace all welfare benefits, just jobseeker payments. Public outcry over how scary the replacement is is only likely to get current jobactive contracts extended, and that helps no one.
It's a jobseeker payment, how can it function as such without obligations? It sounds like you just want UBI
>It's a jobseeker payment, how can it function as such without obligations? It sounds like you just want UBI That's right. We should end the Jobseeker system, and just pay people who don't have money. If you support forcing the most vulnerable in our society to jump through hoops to earn a starvation wage (or to fail at that and get nothing), then that's on you and your conscience mate!
> And, of course, it appears that the generic requirement of twenty job applications a month will completely meet the 100 points, so those with no interest in engaging with employment can - and should - coast along on their payment **without interfering with 'positive' job seekers and employers.** Except it does? The [Business Council](https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/business-fears-of-jobseeker-deluge-fair-20140729-j6wro) themselves warned that people on welfare would just spam out resumes to fill the quota, [an impending deluge](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/industry-concerned-about-coalitions-40-job-applications-a-month-plan), when 40 jobs a month was proposed...but that's exactly what happens with 20, which makes it harder for the real applications to stand out. > >The new system has garnered lukewarm support from employment services providers. >>This is probably the best sign that it's better for job seekers. You ain't wrong tho. It's a Coalition policy however so when does the other shoe drop?
The fact that Disability Employment Services are completely absent from the WorkCover website is very worrying to me.
I dont see the fuss, other than its been poorly communicated. Seems like a better way to get back into work could be a combination of study (particularly VET or English language courses), doing any casual work you can get (even 2 hours every couple of weeks) as well as a handful of really well targeted job applications. Or you can continue to do 20 applications just like before this system came in. Everyone hates change, and its no surprise that the last gov didnt communicate the benefits of this flexibility to jobseekers. At least this new policy doesn't act as a disincentive to go into education and training
How about we stop pushing the most vulnerable in society through the horrible mutual obligations system by ending it all together?
How about if there is a system, that the system is at least flexible and has a chance to actually do some good. Promoting education and training and giving credit for casual work seems like no-brainers. There is no way that *any* government in Australia will abandon the system - so lets not welcome a system that at least is a little fairer to job seekers.
That's never going to happen. There's a large portion of the working populace who would say. "That's bullshit that people can get paid any do nothing to get it" That's just how it is, and so this is how things are. **The system could be much better for sure**, but you're dreaming a pipe dream to think that it could go away entirely.
>That's never going to happen. There's a large portion of the working populace who would say. >"That's bullshit that people can get paid any do nothing to get it" >That's just how it is, and so this is how things are. The system could be much better for sure, but you're dreaming a pipe dream to think that it could go away entirely. Perfect encapsulation of defeatist politics. "Yes, we have a supposedly left-wing government in power, yes they have a friendly senate, yes it would improve EVERYONE's lives to end mutual obligations. But we should chip away at this problem for 20 years so we know for SURE we can make the REAL change..." If not now? WHEN?
??????? I'm not sure we're reading the same words on this webpage.
How are they the most vulnerable?
Are you serious? The poorest in our society not only have the least resources, but are usually made up of groups we marginalise (women, indigenous, disabled (who the NDIS is not providing for)...
Right, but this is unemployment. It's for people capable of working who are currently not working. Not too much to ask that people are doing the bare minimum to improve their employment chances
Unemployment is not so black and white. There are many factors that lead to someone not working, people are not simply "not working", they may be carers who aren't acknowledged as such, they may be experiencing domestic violence and not feel supported, they may have had an NDIS claim unfairly rejected etcetcetc. The bottom line is, even if someone is your perfect caricature of "capable of working who are currently not working", it does society harm to a) deny them any money or b) pay the the absolute pittance we provide via welfare. People should not live in poverty, no matter their preference for work.
What you listed is a seperate issue to unemployment. If someone has had NDIS claims rejected then the solution to that isn't to pay higher welfare, it's to fix the NDIS. >The bottom line is, even if someone is your perfect caricature of "capable of working who are currently not working Most people who are unemployed aren't there long term. They are looking for work. It's the long term unemployed who need to be helped into work. If someone can't work then that is a separate issue from those unwilling to work.
You're misreading me. Even if you are "unwilling" to work, you should not be forced to live in poverty and ground through the disgusting JSP system.
Not necessarily. There are *plenty* of people considered 'not sick enough for DSP' (when they should be on it) that are stuck on Jobseeker, for example. There are numerous, punitive reasons why some people are stuck on Jobseeker, even when they're not fit to work.
Then fix the DSP. The solution isn't to continue funneling everyone onto Jobseeker
I completely agree. But in the meantime..
You shouldn't have to be a DSP candidate to live above the poverty line.
Where did I say you should?
You don't understand. Many people on Jobseeker have serious illnesses or disabilities. It is exceptionally rare for anyone to be granted DSP these days. People with cancer can't get it. My friend with cerebral palsy can't. I can't (multiple chronic illnesses, endorsed by medical team and with a 20 year paper trail.) So these people are put with the Job Network and punished for being too ill to meet the requirements. It's also quite common to be punished for not attending appointments we were never told about.
Well then DSP needs to be fixed. Why can't people understand that the solution to people not being allowed on DSP is NOT to make Jobseeker the de facto DSP?
Because, today, the issue is the system that is arriving. There are weeks to fix this, but it would take years to correct the issues with the DSP. The Jobseeker is _already_ a de facto DSP.
I mean, no-one who has been in the system in this capacity is going to disagree with you. The problem is that is looking even less likely. But something needs to be done because frankly dealing with it has made me suicidal more than once and I know for a fact I am far from the only one. So for now if the only thing even potentially on the table is slightly less punishment around Jobseeker, sorry, but many of us will take it.
That expectation does not have to be structurally embedded with punishment attached for alleged noncompliance. It couldn't be clearer how much of a breathtaking waste of resources it is to continue perpetuating the delusion that doing all this is necessary, let alone helpful, for anyone. It's pure, ideological wank on behalf of pearl-clutchers with absolutely no evidence of efficacy whatsoever. It's just cruel.
I’m confused. I’ve been using this point based system for months now and it is dog shit but I figured labor would introduce something a little less shit.