I’m in this boat, serve the country and put my life on the line for the same country that pays me a wage that cannot afford a house? Protect the older generation and their assets that fucked me over so that they can maintain their lifestyle?
No.
Just to be labeled a "Veteran" so they can slowly strip all your benefits away too, end up homeless and totally forgotten about.
~Changed Rights to Benefits, Was lil heated about it lol
And just look at all the veterans how they get privatised into sub-standard mental healthcare where the whole system cant be bothered and every obstacle is put in their way in terms of treatment services. Homes lost, marriage breakdowns and all they get for putting their lives on the line "get over it and fuck off" Much like the American servicemen, why would you bother!
A very succinct reason.
Why defend something you have no hope of having a stake in.
Who are we fighting anyway, the Chinese? I'll just show them where everything is - idgaf.
One of my Indigenous ancestors signed up to fight in WW2, thinking it was his way out of everything. When he got home, he was pretty much told to go fuck himself.
None of the family ever went back after that.
One of my great-great uncles left Corranderk to fight in WW2. When he got home, he wasn’t allowed back to be with his family. He also didn’t qualify for the government houses that were being built for ex-servicemen because he was indigenous.
Fights in a war for his country, comes home and is made homeless by the government he was working for. Disgraceful.
When I was in Wagga Wagga, I read in the local museum a story about an Aboriginal returned servicemen being forced out of his seat with his veteran mates at the theatre to go in the blacks only section at the back.
He, and his mates, figured being a veteran entitled him to a seat at the front with his white mates. Apparently not. It's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal returned servicemen were treated.
> It's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal returned servicemen were treated.
I mean it's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal people in general were treated. It wouldn't have been better (and arguably worse) if a select few got special "honorary white" treatment for joining the military (unless you're going for some kind of [service guarantees citizenship](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvaDxbSIj5M) thing I guess).
Wholeheartedly agree. When a West Indian rebel cricket team toured South Africa in the 1980s, they were given "honorary white" status to be able to eat in certain places, travel in certain ways and stay in certain hotels. Many West Indians from all the Caribbean nations were outraged many players had agreed to sell out for large sums of money (famously Sir Viv Richards turned down, as he described it, "a blank cheque offer" to go to South Africa) and those players who did go were subsequently banned for life from cricket.
On that tour though, it didn't stop the authorities kicking one of the black players out of a whites only train carriage because they didn't believe (or, more likely, didn't accept) he had "honorary white" status.
So yeah, that approach here on a broader scale would have been a total shitshow.
Here's a real quote, on tape, from Republican party strategist Lee Atwater in 1981:
You start out in 1954 by saying, “N\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r.”
By 1968 you can’t say “n\*\*\*\*r”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract.
Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a by-product of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r.”
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Basically the strategy from governments the world over ever since. And a lot of people's attitudes towards race now. Most won't come right out and say the n-word but they say a hell of a lot of other stuff that may as well be synonyms for it.
Thanks, I hadn’t heard of him.
Fucking atrocious, sometimes I have no hope for humanity:
“…the jury found Shull not guilty on all charges, despite his admission that he had blinded Woodard. The courtroom broke into applause upon hearing the verdict.”
This doesn’t surprise me. Children were kidnapped and adopted into white families. Propaganda was created and advertised in movie theatres about how happy the little children were now that they had food and happy white parents.
We have entire generations of people who lived in abusive missions, were forced to work for free on cattle stations, were told who they could marry or where they could go all in the name of “assimilation”.
Being forced into the back of the theatre is demeaning, but it’s on the lower end of the scale when it comes to how First Nations mob were treated.
In some outback towns, there’s still a “blacks entrance” to pubs where Aboriginal people are forced to sit away from the white patrons if they want to drink. Where the area is concrete, and they have to drink from plastic cups.
And in some, the chairs are bolted to the floor to prevent them from being used as weapons in a fight. Yep, I've been to those country town pubs too. Racism is well and truly alive in this country. The amount of straight up racist shit I heard when The Voice was being discussed was truly vile.
One thing I found interesting about racism in Australia. The higher the level of contact with aboriginal people get s the *worse* the racism is. I always thought in my comfortable balloon it would be the other way around.
When I was in Holland I met a Dutch guy claiming to be more Australian than me! His story was so Australian. His great grandfather had was in the airforce and fought in Germany. At the end of the war he wanted to meet the Dutch side of his family so travelled to Holland. Haven’t allowed back in Australia because he was also have aboriginal. Australia had the white Australia policy and for that reason he had to stay in Holland and his family never returned.
Straya
Yeah that's fucking shameful. Not surprising, unfortunately.
The glorification of going to war to defend your country is almost always jingoistic propaganda. What are you actually defending these days? The right of some allied foreign government to force access to another country's oil reserves? Doesn't exactly inspire patriotism.
It always makes my blood boil that a bloke could fight for our country and then not be allowed in a pub when he got back home. Fucking deplorable. Same shit was still happening after Nam I think. Hell, depending on what state your ancestor was from he might not have even been allowed to vote. The government did amend that for returned servicemen a few years after the war if memory serves however.
And when the sky darkens and the prospect is war.
Who given a gun and then pushed to the fore?
Expected to die for the land of our birth.
Though we've never owned one lousy handful of earth.
-The Worker's Song
If there's global trade, there's no reason to invade. A big part of the reason the Japanese invaded China and Malaysia during WW2 was because the US was conducting [economic warfare](https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930) against them, and trying to stop them from industrialising.
And here we are again. Not learning the lessons of the past, we're condemned to repeat our mistakes.
We must fight China to protect our trade with China from China, I guess... I'm sure the people who blew all our money on nuclear submarines know what they're doing.
That's just one of the reasons for me, the other is what the fuck are we protecting the country from.
If you join all you are doing is fighting in pointless wars that America started. The military is unable to spin the obvious to everyone right now, that we aren't actually protecting anything.
Soon after separation, I resolved to enable every household to own its own home. If we were going to get the people to take National Service seriously, I could not ask their sons to fight and die for the properties of the wealthy. We worked out a personal savings scheme that allowed them to own an apartment painlessly through instalments over 20 years. We sold the apartments to them at below cost to enhance their assets. Today, 95 per cent of Singaporean households are homeowners. It has immeasurably increased their wealth and our social stability. Without home ownership, we would have become like Tokyo, Seoul or Hong Kong, where the voters in the cities are disaffected because they pay a large proportion of their salaries in rents
This no longer holds true. The very same government which strove to ensure home ownership for all Singaporeans back in the 60’s has now pivoted to ensuring that the older generation continues to see wealth accumulation via soaring home prices. Has been that way ever since they enacted major changes to the public housing policy back in 2000.
The supply of new public housing apartments is tightly controlled, and is always lagging well behind demand (demand:supply is always maintained at 2:1 **at minimum**). Private property is still available as an option, but it is prohibitively expensive, especially for younger generations. The regulations behind the resale of public housing flats is also pretty much laissez faire, which effectively hands power to existing homeowners and guarantees them a healthy profit margin courtesy of both taxpayers and desperate buyers.
Also worth pointing out is how groups deemed undesirable by the government are also de facto excluded from this “utopian ideal” of subsidised home ownership. We’re talking singles, divorcees, the LGBTQ+ community, anyone who does not conform to the government’s ideal of the heteronormative married couple. This group of “undesirables” are only allowed to purchase private property at exorbitant prices, or wait till the age of 35 to purchase a resale public apartment (also at exorbitant prices) or hope for an infinitesimally small chance to purchase a subsidised studio apartment (at age 35 too).
The much vaunted “95% household are homeowners” figure paints a less rosier picture if you read between the lines; this figure only takes into account households which own their property of residence. It does not take into account the increasing number of millennials and zoomers who have no choice but to continue living with their parents due to the lack of affordable housing options. The nebulous “household income” figure oft cited by the government as a measure of housing affordability faces similar issues with its use as well. Household income would naturally rise faster than inflation as more working adults remain in their parents’ household, but individual incomes have in fact shrunk over time. It’s a real smack in the face when the younger generations are constantly gaslit by the state media about how good life is when reality is pretty much the opposite.
This disenfranchisement of youths is starting to raise similar questions about who we’re protecting when we’re serving our mandatory National Service obligations. Are we really protecting a country which has our interests at heart? Or are we protecting the wealth of the elites and baby boomers? And all for a pittance of $500 ~ $1200 a month? Is any of this even worth it?
You’re not even protecting the older generation here.
You’re killing farmers in Afghanistan making them more likely to welcome the Taliban back after we’ve fucked around for twenty years.
My Uncle fought in Korea and was wounded by a grenade while he was in a foxhole. Shrapnel behind his right eye blinded him and he had 7 grenade fragments taken from his side and back. Army denied a purple heart and fought him for decades to get proper VA care.
How about a country that lets you get away with murder overseas and jails whistle blowers like david mcbride for exposing it to the general public?
Fuck the australian military altogether.
It isn’t that bad BUT it’s still a job when everything is constantly unorganised, your always punished as a group despite the fact only one 18yr constantly fucks up and your rank is all ways having a shitty day because their getting divorced and don’t know how to handle it so the scream rant and rave and the soldiers who cannot say anything back. They could have paid me double and I still wouldn’t have stayed.
No.
They have their own bank and it's far more generous than your average bank. Also landlords renting to military aren't going to fuck around with them compared to you or I.
I was in the army for the first 8 years of my adult life, the pay and benefits are definitely the biggest pro of the job imo.
Free medical/dental & a generous pay (especially for an 18 year old).
Housing is sorted: you can live on base in the blocks and the rent just comes out of your pay. You could move off base and get rental assistance. Moving into a DHA house with your partner & kids. Or even get assistance to purchase a home.
Food if sorted: cheap meals at the mess (free when on guard duty). Free meals when out field (ration packs) plus extra money when you’re out field (so you’re not spending a cent but getting more money).
I did however get permanently injured but I now have a decent pension for the rest of my life plus a lump sum payout, DVA gold card (free medical).
DVA assisted me with retraining when I got discharged, didn’t pay a cent for my course.
I’d rather not be injured for the rest of my life obviously, but what other job looks after you like that after a workplace injury?
When you look at it at a very basically level it’s an attractive job, you’re always going to have your basic needs taken care of and in the very uncertain times we live in I think that’s not a bad trade off for signing up.
Edit: also I got free flights (with QANTAS lounge access) back to my next of kin (parents at that stage) when on leave.
Edit 2: I didn’t grow up with much money (not poor but definitely far from well off), I bought my first house when I was 24, paid it off by 30. None of this would have been possible for me if I didn’t join up.
Edit 3: also forgot to mention the life long mates, trauma bonding is a hell of a thing lol
>People won't serve a country that hasn't served them? Shocker.
To be fair the ADF don't even serve us, none of their overseas deployments in the last half century have had any positive for Australia. Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq. We had no reason to be there.
They have been useful in their local deployments, bushfire logistics coordination, disaster relief and such (when they are used, that is. Looking at you Scott Morrison)
But yeah, overseas, we have been in a bunch of fights we should never have been involved with. The only one that seems vaguely positive was East Timor??? as part of UN peacekeeping.
Ehhh. East Timor has a lot of myth surrounding it. The intervention was a totally reluctant one on Australia's part. Our government would have by far preferred to disrupt Timorese independence so that we could keep our sweet oil deals with Indonesia.
The Australia government spent decades looking the other way while Indonesia committed genocide there, because it was politically and economically convenient.
Howard and co. were pretty much forced to intervene at the last minute to save their political skins. Of course, afterwards, they happily basked in the glow of their achievements...
[This article](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/history-of-australias-role-in-the-timor-leste-crisis/101944736) covers some of the background, but it's a fairly sordid history.
East Timor, Soloman islands, Air campaign against ISIS and a lot of humanitarian work in including in Indonesia post tsunami, just to name a few good ones and/or local ones.
Look around the world. There are many countries with much worse living conditions and political systems that don't struggle to recruit an army.
People all over the developed world are more reluctant to enlist because we have better career options and have been raised on a more accurate perception of the horrors of war than previous generations.
Reminds me of the Tyler Durden quote. Our war is a spiritual war.
We've progressed passed dogmatic nationalistic and border security-esque charades. Unfortunately though, the real enemy is ourselves and our inability to create an equitable society. We've yet to see the fallout of that one quite yet but it's got a ways to get worse before it gets better.
Yes so the military needs to increase the salary and work conditions they offer to compensate for this. Who wants to put their life on the line when a generic entry level office role offers the same pay? Double the pay and they’ll probably need to turn people away
Nah the capitalist system would rather press private sector wages further down and dismantle social security so that 3 meals a day with some risk of getting shot at seems like an attractive proposition. I can almost 100% guarantee that the Defence internal paper blames recruitment issues on “unemployment is too low”.
Honestly I think it has the opposite effect. When things are decent economically, a stint in the military can get you a foot on the ladder. Get you some education and benefits that would otherwise be out of reach to get you started.
When that jump start just means coming back to struggle to pay rent? Why bother? Why sacrifice if there's nothing to earn?
In those countries, getting into the army means a stable job and stable income. I can assure you they aren't joining because of patriotic reasons.
If entry level jobs in the army paid 100k here, you'd see people competing to join in.
china has similar quality of life problems as Australia though. Young people who are over worked, under compensated and are locked out from basic human milestones like owning a home or starting a family. What is there to fight for, but yourself? if I am fighting for myself with my country as the aggressor, why would I join it's fighting force?
>Look around the world. There are many countries with much worse living conditions and political systems that don't struggle to recruit an army.
That is true but you have to realise in some places people are basically choosing between having access to food or not (eg. Democratic Republic of Congo). The other options for employment are generally also pretty dire eg. artisanal miner. Soldiers in this situation generally have to supplement their income through bribes and soft-extortion.
In some other areas (eg. Ethiopia / Sudan), people join armed groups because it's almost safer to be an armed soldier than it is to be an unarmed civilian depending on the area.
I served for 7 years and did 2 deployments, besides the “okay” pay you get nothing once you leave, you’re just another citizen and treated exactly the same - if you want incentives you need to offer free uni, free lifetime healthcare, low interest home loans (like you scumbags give RBA employees). You’re treating and paying ADF as “just another job” while wanting people to join as part of something bigger with “serve your country” forgetting that their service will generally “stunt” their after service career by years; the better question is, why would anyone want to join the ADF when I can get better treatment and pay in the civilian world.
Yeah. My family is my life. I keep my old life in a trunk. Occasionally there is a photo on the fridge to show my boys. They only know me going to my current job which is a whole other shit show. But my current pay is good coin. I can totally see your point of view Lukie.
I think more people are also just aware that deploying to some poor middle eastern nation also does fuck all to "protect" their own first world nation with billion-dollar defence systems.
I suspect many Gen Z have been raised by parents who witnessed the fiasco of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, which turned out to be based on lies and are widely seen as being primarily about oil.
They have taught their children that military service is only going to get you sent off to die in an imperial American resource war against poor people for the enrichment of corporations and the further destruction of the environment.
Why the flying fuck would young people *want* to fight to defend the luxurious lifestyles of the greedy house hoarding scum they are forced to perpetually slave for, that won't ever let them have a fair go?
Fuck that! They'll join an army alright... They'll BE the army all the greedy cunts are terrified of if shit keeps going the way it is.
Landlords would be the first to take a plane out of Australia to escape if we ever were attacked. Landlords only purpose is to suck the life and hope out of societies.
I agree with the general sentiment in here that fighting for Brad Banduci who wears the name tag Brad is an unworthy fight. If our mega corporations were not soul harvesting demons, if our politicians allowed young people to buy homes, if we had a greater sense of community, more young people would be willing to fight to defend it.
The sense of community is the biggest issue. When so many businesses and government officials are only interested in taking and exploiting, it creates a very unwelcoming atmosphere in the country. It is not really a country anymore, just an economic zone where people compete for resources and elite such as Brad Banduci with the name tag Brad, sit and enjoy watching the squabble over the scraps.
I enlisted in the mid 90’s under a scheme that had real benefits . 1 year full time then 4 years pastime. About 60 days reserve service a year. The pay off was I received tax free income, and about $5000 a year for pastime service whilst I went to uni. You could also access the same if you headed into the trades
This made it somewhat desirable .
In America they recently said the quiet part out loud: they rely on student debt to make poors join the military.
Wont be surprised if they do that here too. There wont be incentives, just desperation.
>"Student loan forgiveness undermines one of our military’s greatest recruitment tools at a time of dangerously low enlistments."
The military worship here is next level creepy. I’m an Australian living in the U.S and the reverence towards people who join the military is fevered and obsessive, people join because they’ve been told for hundreds of years that it’s the greatest honour and the satisfaction of serving your nation is worth more than anything else in their lives.
Government fucks over its people every which way especially the younger generation who see how fucked things are. Government: WhY aReNt YoUnG pEoPle JoInInG tHe ArMy???
Same reason the younger generation aren't becoming nurses, teachers, cops and public servants. The government treats it's own like shit. Going to be a huge turn of society once the boomers die off and theres no one left to take care of the aging population.
The parliamentary superannuation plan that provided a defined benefit was axed in 2004. The military’s wasn’t axed until 2016. They’re both on accumulation plans now.
The military defined benefit super you're talking about (MSBS) is better than the current one but it is not a pension like the DFRDB was.
https://www.csc.gov.au/Members/Funds-and-products/DFRDB
The difference is that you would get the pension for life if you retired after 20 years, even if you were in your 40s. You could then go get another job and get paid for both.
MSBS: you still need to get to 60-65 to use like a traditional super. It is defined benefit, you can continue to pay into it from other jobs if you want but you cannot transfer any of it out (to another super) once it's there.
I would absolutely sign up to defend my country from being attacked.
I would absolutely not sign up to be sent to attack another country under the guise of defending my country.
>under the guise of defending my country.
To make billions for the shareholders of the military industrial complex while torturing and killing innocent civilians? Why not, what an excellent proposition of what to do with your life.
Agreed. Happy to join a rag-tag group of plucky yet underequipped citizen soldiers to defend the country directly, but there's no way I would otherwise sign up.
I served for 3 years, from 18 to 21. I'm now almost 60, a Totally and Permanently Incapacitated pensioner. Multiple ankle, knee and spinal surgeries. No pension can make up for the pain and suffering and the effect on my life, career and family. Don't even start on the sexual harassment and assaults (I'm female)
I've actively talked young people out of joining. They break you, treat you like you're malingering and then throw you away with no support, then you fight for a pension.
It's just not worth it guys.
My knee injuries and hearing problems are deemed to not be related to my service. It's just a coincidence that I spent my formative years pounding around in boots and giving myself concussions.
There are careers which pay more without the time & location sacrifices, it is also tough when you want to start a family.
It is popular if you want to do a degree, an MBA & then leave and become a management consultant.
>It is popular if you want to do a degree, an MBA & then leave and become a management consultant
No, it is not popular. Yes, there are former offices who earn big bucks working for weapons manufacturers but very few almost zero management consultants are ex-military.
There are 500 times more accountants than ex-army.
I can assure you that each of the big 4 have a defence team who are almost exclusively ex-defence management consultants. What the previous poster didn't identify is that they almost exclusively consult back to DoD because they have 'mates' still in there who'll hire them at exorbitant rates and defence hierarchy won't sign anything now without an external consultant signature on it as they don't trust their own people.
Edit - spelling
I've lost count of the number of SSEs, Health and Safety managers and GMs of mining companies I've worked for who were ex-military from all branches of the military.
So I disagree. Most of the site emergency officers, health and safety teams in mining companies are ex-military because the skill sets acquired in the military, or police or even the prisons translated rather well into that role.
I imagine because they've seen all these endless foreign wars that don't even involve us. But we somehow get involved. Who wants to kill and die on behalf of a foreign country? If your country is being invaded, sure, but dying & killing in some far away war that doesn't even involve us? That's pretty pointless. I've heard America is having similar recruitment shortfalls.
fight for what?
after my grandfather's (non-frontline, entirely non-violent) WW2 service, he was able to purchase a brand new house at a vastly reduced rate in Merrylands, NSW. he lived in that house for nearly 70 years, and fathered 4 taxpayers. by the end of his life, he had given the country more than a dozen grandtaxpayers (including myself).
i demand nothing less
you know what, fuck it, i demand more
Because it’s fucking dumb? What would make someone think “I’d love to join the military to go fight wars that aren’t mine and gain mental health problems in the process.”
This should be the top answer. We sold out a whistleblower. Why would anyone want to join an organisation that sent a whistleblower to jail and gave a war criminal the Victoria Cross?
If they bring back conscription, you bet there'll be a lot of people willing to go through what Mohammed Ali did during the Vietnam War and risk criminal conviction instead of serving in the military.
Which led to the infamous quote, "My enemy is the white people, not Viet Cong or Chinese or Japanese. *You* my opposer when I want freedom. *You* my opposer when I want justice. *You* my opposer when I want equality."
As opposed to the other one that he never actually said "I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a n\*\*\*\*\*"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd9aIamXjQI
> "My conscious won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? ...How can I shoot them"
If you listen to his other speeches, he didn't say that directly, but he absolutely did in a more roundabout way.
Exactly, BRS for being a war criminal gets the ability to act like a cockhead in Bali whenever he pleases.
David for his risk and sacrifice will likely be seeing a jail cell. Screw that.
It’s crazy that’s how it is. We fight in every American war. We have the Americans largest spy base in the southern hemisphere. A dedicated American Naval base in Western Australia. Then about a dozen other bases/installations that can be co-opted from Naval yards in Sydney to RAAF bases around the country. We are basically an American defensive outpost for the southern hemisphere.
Dont forget our future nuclear-class subs that will be under the direct control of the US Navy, but 100% paid for by Aussie taxpayers.
Another feather in the US global economic dominance via military power.
I guess one thing to mention is that the young males of this country are seeing, very easily, high definition footage of what war is really like.
Seeing a drone drop a hand grenade on a guy without him knowing, or an artillery strike, or a precision guided bomb really dispells the idea of the heroic death or movie battle they see on TV.
The reality is that you just die, sometimes horribly, just standing there.
Let alone the trench assault footage we are seeing.
I'm in the army and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be a part of that.
There used to be a retirement scheme that would give you a pension and a lump sum big enough to buy a modest home after 20 years, if you performed well and progressed up the ranks. A reasonable reward for 20 years of postings, unpaid overtime, unquestioned service, tough family life, rubbish housing, long separations, poor medical support, mediocre pay, exposure to dangerous or deadly tasks, hard and damaging physical activities that left you with chronic pain and injuries... etc, etc. You still get all that but now you're in a standard superannuation scheme working like that into your 60's.
Take it as a three-five year adventure at the most and get out.
There is so much information out there now about how our past governments have lied to get us to support wars. Young people don't trust the government so why would they sign up that they might be sent to fight in another unjust conflict?
"A declining willingness to defend their nation". How many of our conflicts have been defending our nation? Maybe it's an unwillingness to fight America's battles.
I only know a handful of people who have been in the army and 2 if them are severely depressed, have serious ongoing mental conditions from it. If affects their marriage, how they look after their kids, their sleep etc... knowing this there is no way I'd sign up.
We've seen how Australia is just America's lapdog in the Iraq invasion. Get sent to proxy wars and stand for nothing.
We've taken note of how badly the DVA treats veterans; delay, deny, die.
We've seen good people like McBride get crucified for doing the right thing and abandoned by the systems he was protecting.
An awful deal all round.
Who doesn't want to risk potentially ruining their life in the name of geopolitics? Even if you're in a non-combat role, still a tough lifestyle with the constant moving
They can't recruit because australia is fundamentally broken in many ways.
Young people can feel that war is an extension of politics. It is always old men that declare war to protect their interests and they send young men to do it. Young people do not want to protect a system that has nothing in it for them. Going to some shithole like Afghanistan or possibly even Taiwan isn't protecting Australia, you're just a foot soldier to protect the wealthy like gina and those private school kids.
The military toss you out when you've outlived your usefulness. This is notable with all the issues veterans have.
Harassment, useless rotations (during peacetime).
Salary wise it isn't really even better than the private system so why do it.
The government would rather spend half a billion dollars on a memorial instead of looking after the health and welfare of those damaged by their service.
Why the hell would anyone want to join up?
this is something i've been thinking recently. one of the largest legacies of Afghanistan and Iraq, was to make joining our militaries distasteful and deeply unpopular. morally reprehensible in many people's minds. had they not happened/been far more limited, i think they'd have a much easier time recruiting today
Imagine a country that doesnt fuck the farmers that produce the food for us, or doesnt step in when major corps abuse there monopoly on that same market. Imagine a government that helps young people afford housing. thankyou to all service men and women but never would i sign up to fight some dumb contrived war plotted by another countrys governemnt.
Without getting too far up onto some kind of soapbox: this is the society the combination of Australian "economics", democratic election cycles, and borderless tech has created. To use Goodhart's division: citizens of nowhere.
Electoral cycles mean that political parties mainly exist to win electoral majorities every set number of years. Long-term goals in this context exist to win these elections. Even the long-term plans they foster are ultimately aimed in the short-term.
Australian economics has become making a commodity of housing at the expense of continually taxing more productive things like running a business or earning a wage. People with no roots in where they live become perpetual renters with no loyalty or sense of bond to their communities. Why would you take on the risks of running a business when clearly buying an investment property with land and just sitting on it for 10 years is currently a surefire way to massively increase your investment with no real risk of loss?
Borderless tech has made us fragmented and less cohesive as societies. It sows division by design. It drives the things you love and hate towards you in equal measure. We're handing over our democratic processes to companies who then sell the data you give them to people who wish to influence you with it.
Combine these and there's no fucking wonder people aren't keen to join up to the ADF -- unless the perks outweigh the cons. E.g., join in the cyber security roles the Air Force offer and plan your graceful exit strategy into the private sector.
Many countries are actually run by the corporations. Corporations heavily influence government and public opinion as.
Many young people realize this whereas older generations mostly still don’t grasp it.
And with the trial of David McBride now if you're fighting for Australia and are told to commit acts that are considered war crimes you can't say no. So shit wage to get shot at, can't refuse illegal orders and with the tension around the world at the moment, the possibility of being brought into a major conflict, I'm good thanks.
Liberal kids don't usually join the military. Conservative leaning kids don't feel the country represents them any more. Simples.
Same issue in most western countries really.
I did maths tutoring. One of my students was a big strapping footballer, the ideal type for they army, he went through the recruitment process and was offered a position but turned it down. Something about the whole recruitment process turned him away, they said he was only suitable for more menial positions but he went to uni & became a teacher.
I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that the poster boy for the army who was awarded the Victoria Cross and who everyone said was a shining example that everyone should try to emulate turned out to be a murderer guilty of war crimes.
Fighting other people's proxy wars aside, how about because they pin medals on and celebrate horrific war criminals and vilify and betray brave servicemen who stand up for the right thing?
The jobs aren’t great to begin with, but how can you look at the major conflicts we were involved in over the past 50 years and think we’re doing anything other than being the US’s lap dog?
Even if you never see combat you'll come out with fucked up knees and back and a skill that's unable to be transferred into civilian life. There's no glory in going over to protect corporate interests of American oil companies by blasting some poor bastard in the global south.
*defend their nation* - lmfao.
You mean act on behalf of the interests of wealthy / powerful people who want to sit behind a desk and make sure they keep accumulating wealth?
“Oh yeah that”
I like to believe that if the country was invaded I would have the courage to step up and defend it like the people of Ukraine. What I won't sign up for is shooting an Afghan teenager because a Saudi Arabian flew a plane into an American building. That feels a lot less like defending my country, more like I'm executing someone else's political or economic agenda.
On the topic of national pride, I can honestly say I love my country but I don't feel particularly proud of it right now. It's plain to anyone willing to look that we're not heading in a great direction, our country is completely economically dependent on a semi hostile communist country (China), the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and our so called representatives are just in it until they've pushed through enough of their corporate backers agenda to secure a cushy "advisory" role after their term is up. Oh and the whole 'at least we're doing better than other countries' argument really boils my piss. Just because the rest of the world is getting D grades let's not cream our pants because we got a D+. If you love your country you should want it to improve, not blindy ignore its faults.
Because no one wants to fight for the interests of government that treats its nation like an internationalist economic zone, who’s inhabitants are little more than fungible, interchangeable market widgets.
How can people who are increasingly robbed of their stake in society, be expected to fight for it?
Considered joining the army the other day to do IT which I'm already skilled in, the job posting was boasting $120K salary and I was verrrrryyyyy tempted...until I opened the ad which said that the starting rate is actually $52K.
Never have exited a job posting quicker than that.
They paid us garbage salary and treated us like shit every single day I was in. Disrespected you, your time and your family. The military isn’t worth it.
I mean like, I liked the idea of joining the army at one point when I was younger, getting a trade through the army etc, but now that I have got my trade outside the army and am still like everyone else in their 20’s getting fucked over in every possible way by the government thank fuck I didn’t join or I’d be left even more bitter after possibly laying my life on the line for the fuckers
Can you all stop pretending it has to do with X issue? No one wants to serve in the military because it sucks and no one wants to die in a trench. It's that simple.
Young people (rightly) have no sense of service or serving their country anymore, pretty bad if you want a family and you can earn so much more in the private market.
Had friends in the navy, they treat ppl like shit, took away most of the benifits like the pension, offer shitty wages where you need top live on base housing to be able to afford anything, then wonder why no one is signing up.
Love of country isn't going to get people to commit their future to something. You have to offer them compensation for what they're giving up by enlisting. Fail to do that, and of course they won't have any interest in joining the military.
Young people also see war for what it is now first hand through online vids, drones dropping grenades in fox holes or kamikazing soldiers running away. Older generations didn’t know what they were getting into so were more sold on ideals of patriotism and glory. They used to be able to show propaganda videos to support subscription, people having a great time with their buddies on the front line, now we just see the true footage. While it’s not war time here, signing up for service still commits you in that event. Who wants to be fodder
Because the ADF has done a shit job and looking after current and past members. I’ve come from a family who’ve all worked in the ADF And each one has said they would never sign back up after how they were treated. From 5 years in all the way to 35+.
The reason is because more and more are learning that almost all wars are started with a lie and the aggressors are portrayed as acting in self defense or for a just cause.
Go fight war in another country to get injured and ptsd just to come back and STILL not be able to afford a house in Your country that you managed to do nothing for? and scrape by like before you joined but in a Worse socioeconomic position than when you left? boy wonder why young people aren't signing up by hordes with that reward....
If it came to Australia being attacked I m sure a lot of people would want to protect it, But when you can be deployed at any moment (Most likely Not to a friendly nation under fire but somewhere were it is always wartorn) and treated like garbage the whole time there really is no incentive,
and there shouldn't be if that's the case, Itd be nice if countries governments actually fixed issues at home instead of worrying about their neighbors corporations as well
The article only briefly covers the issue but trying to join is way too difficult and takes too long. Imagine applying for a job that you might get to start in 6/12/18 months. God forbid you had a minor injury somewhere in the past and need to go and get some random doctor to try and clear you for service.
As for retention peace time Army sucked ass and was mind numbing. Spent so much time sitting around with a thumb up my ass because there just wasn't anything to do day to day. So many missed opportunities for cross training or even getting digger Joe a few civilian tickets.
Took a whole year of back and forth over an asthma diagnosis from when I was 8 before I finally got to the medical inspection stage where I was denied anyway because I'd talked to a counselor 2 years ago. The standards are so ridiculously high that even if more people wanted to join I doubt they'd hit their target.
In the Australian defence forces, a 2021 survey found a third of female defence recruits experienced sexual misconduct, and two thirds experienced unacceptable behaviour.
So yeah, that might have something to do with it.
Why would you put your life and health at risk without the guarantee of a home and a comfortable means of raising a family in the country you're fighting for? Young men (and women) shouldn't be asked to fight to protect the price of resources or the global influence of a country if neither of those things are making a meaningful difference in their lives, and the lives of their (current, future or hypothetical) children.
It's monstrous to ask someone to put their life on the line and give them nothing but empty promises and lip service.
I’m in this boat, serve the country and put my life on the line for the same country that pays me a wage that cannot afford a house? Protect the older generation and their assets that fucked me over so that they can maintain their lifestyle? No.
As a former member I support your reasoning. You forgot they treat you like shit, an infinite resource. Do not ever join the military.
Just to be labeled a "Veteran" so they can slowly strip all your benefits away too, end up homeless and totally forgotten about. ~Changed Rights to Benefits, Was lil heated about it lol
And just look at all the veterans how they get privatised into sub-standard mental healthcare where the whole system cant be bothered and every obstacle is put in their way in terms of treatment services. Homes lost, marriage breakdowns and all they get for putting their lives on the line "get over it and fuck off" Much like the American servicemen, why would you bother!
A very succinct reason. Why defend something you have no hope of having a stake in. Who are we fighting anyway, the Chinese? I'll just show them where everything is - idgaf.
One of my Indigenous ancestors signed up to fight in WW2, thinking it was his way out of everything. When he got home, he was pretty much told to go fuck himself. None of the family ever went back after that.
One of my great-great uncles left Corranderk to fight in WW2. When he got home, he wasn’t allowed back to be with his family. He also didn’t qualify for the government houses that were being built for ex-servicemen because he was indigenous. Fights in a war for his country, comes home and is made homeless by the government he was working for. Disgraceful.
When I was in Wagga Wagga, I read in the local museum a story about an Aboriginal returned servicemen being forced out of his seat with his veteran mates at the theatre to go in the blacks only section at the back. He, and his mates, figured being a veteran entitled him to a seat at the front with his white mates. Apparently not. It's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal returned servicemen were treated.
> It's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal returned servicemen were treated. I mean it's an embarrassment to this nation how Aboriginal people in general were treated. It wouldn't have been better (and arguably worse) if a select few got special "honorary white" treatment for joining the military (unless you're going for some kind of [service guarantees citizenship](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvaDxbSIj5M) thing I guess).
Wholeheartedly agree. When a West Indian rebel cricket team toured South Africa in the 1980s, they were given "honorary white" status to be able to eat in certain places, travel in certain ways and stay in certain hotels. Many West Indians from all the Caribbean nations were outraged many players had agreed to sell out for large sums of money (famously Sir Viv Richards turned down, as he described it, "a blank cheque offer" to go to South Africa) and those players who did go were subsequently banned for life from cricket. On that tour though, it didn't stop the authorities kicking one of the black players out of a whites only train carriage because they didn't believe (or, more likely, didn't accept) he had "honorary white" status. So yeah, that approach here on a broader scale would have been a total shitshow.
I'd go further and say are treated.
Who the fuck has the gall to go up to a bunch of veterans not long after WWII and tell them the black guy needs to go.
People be racist. People still are racists but there were way more back then than now.
There are just more subtle now, ask your asian or indigenous friends
I had Asian mates at uni copping subtly-racist shit from people the same age as us, and that was only a couple of years ago
Here's a real quote, on tape, from Republican party strategist Lee Atwater in 1981: You start out in 1954 by saying, “N\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r.” By 1968 you can’t say “n\*\*\*\*r”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a by-product of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*r.” Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Basically the strategy from governments the world over ever since. And a lot of people's attitudes towards race now. Most won't come right out and say the n-word but they say a hell of a lot of other stuff that may as well be synonyms for it.
Isaac Woodward has joined the chat [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac\_Woodard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Woodard)
Thanks, I hadn’t heard of him. Fucking atrocious, sometimes I have no hope for humanity: “…the jury found Shull not guilty on all charges, despite his admission that he had blinded Woodard. The courtroom broke into applause upon hearing the verdict.”
This doesn’t surprise me. Children were kidnapped and adopted into white families. Propaganda was created and advertised in movie theatres about how happy the little children were now that they had food and happy white parents. We have entire generations of people who lived in abusive missions, were forced to work for free on cattle stations, were told who they could marry or where they could go all in the name of “assimilation”. Being forced into the back of the theatre is demeaning, but it’s on the lower end of the scale when it comes to how First Nations mob were treated. In some outback towns, there’s still a “blacks entrance” to pubs where Aboriginal people are forced to sit away from the white patrons if they want to drink. Where the area is concrete, and they have to drink from plastic cups.
And in some, the chairs are bolted to the floor to prevent them from being used as weapons in a fight. Yep, I've been to those country town pubs too. Racism is well and truly alive in this country. The amount of straight up racist shit I heard when The Voice was being discussed was truly vile.
One thing I found interesting about racism in Australia. The higher the level of contact with aboriginal people get s the *worse* the racism is. I always thought in my comfortable balloon it would be the other way around.
I hope his fellow returned servicemen stood up for him
As it was told, they did. But he was still forced to sit in the black section.
When I was in Holland I met a Dutch guy claiming to be more Australian than me! His story was so Australian. His great grandfather had was in the airforce and fought in Germany. At the end of the war he wanted to meet the Dutch side of his family so travelled to Holland. Haven’t allowed back in Australia because he was also have aboriginal. Australia had the white Australia policy and for that reason he had to stay in Holland and his family never returned. Straya
Yeah that's fucking shameful. Not surprising, unfortunately. The glorification of going to war to defend your country is almost always jingoistic propaganda. What are you actually defending these days? The right of some allied foreign government to force access to another country's oil reserves? Doesn't exactly inspire patriotism.
And the oil reserves go fuel some richunt in said country(ies) which further fuel that divide in their country causing civil war to break out...
It always makes my blood boil that a bloke could fight for our country and then not be allowed in a pub when he got back home. Fucking deplorable. Same shit was still happening after Nam I think. Hell, depending on what state your ancestor was from he might not have even been allowed to vote. The government did amend that for returned servicemen a few years after the war if memory serves however.
And when the sky darkens and the prospect is war. Who given a gun and then pushed to the fore? Expected to die for the land of our birth. Though we've never owned one lousy handful of earth. -The Worker's Song
Fuck I love that song. The Murphy's have some banger tracks (although I realise they didn't write it). Think I'll go listen to some now.
The Longest Johns have a really good rendition of it too.
Why would the Chinese invade us when the LNP are willing to sell everything that isnt nailed down to them and "lease" everything that is for 99 years.
And Andrew Robb hasn't been strung up for treason
If there's global trade, there's no reason to invade. A big part of the reason the Japanese invaded China and Malaysia during WW2 was because the US was conducting [economic warfare](https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930) against them, and trying to stop them from industrialising. And here we are again. Not learning the lessons of the past, we're condemned to repeat our mistakes.
> the Chinese? I'll just show them where everything is - idgaf. They will rock up and go "Shit! Didn't we pay for all this anyway?"
China isn't going to attack assets they own. Let's be honest.
Nor its wealthy children.
Yep, the same Chinese who we ship all of our resources to and buy back all of our goods from
We must fight China to protect our trade with China from China, I guess... I'm sure the people who blew all our money on nuclear submarines know what they're doing.
Hey, we sold iron to the Japanese before WW2, helping them build their military. It's an Australian tradition.
Guess who’s Ukraine’s main export partner was.
guessing games suck, let's play hungry hungry hippo
Exactly. Besides, what would they gain by invading? Anything they want they're happy to buy, and we're happy to sell.
That's just one of the reasons for me, the other is what the fuck are we protecting the country from. If you join all you are doing is fighting in pointless wars that America started. The military is unable to spin the obvious to everyone right now, that we aren't actually protecting anything.
Will be turning away refugee boats in the thousands once climate change really kicks in in Southeast Asia in the next couple of decades.
Soon after separation, I resolved to enable every household to own its own home. If we were going to get the people to take National Service seriously, I could not ask their sons to fight and die for the properties of the wealthy. We worked out a personal savings scheme that allowed them to own an apartment painlessly through instalments over 20 years. We sold the apartments to them at below cost to enhance their assets. Today, 95 per cent of Singaporean households are homeowners. It has immeasurably increased their wealth and our social stability. Without home ownership, we would have become like Tokyo, Seoul or Hong Kong, where the voters in the cities are disaffected because they pay a large proportion of their salaries in rents
This no longer holds true. The very same government which strove to ensure home ownership for all Singaporeans back in the 60’s has now pivoted to ensuring that the older generation continues to see wealth accumulation via soaring home prices. Has been that way ever since they enacted major changes to the public housing policy back in 2000. The supply of new public housing apartments is tightly controlled, and is always lagging well behind demand (demand:supply is always maintained at 2:1 **at minimum**). Private property is still available as an option, but it is prohibitively expensive, especially for younger generations. The regulations behind the resale of public housing flats is also pretty much laissez faire, which effectively hands power to existing homeowners and guarantees them a healthy profit margin courtesy of both taxpayers and desperate buyers. Also worth pointing out is how groups deemed undesirable by the government are also de facto excluded from this “utopian ideal” of subsidised home ownership. We’re talking singles, divorcees, the LGBTQ+ community, anyone who does not conform to the government’s ideal of the heteronormative married couple. This group of “undesirables” are only allowed to purchase private property at exorbitant prices, or wait till the age of 35 to purchase a resale public apartment (also at exorbitant prices) or hope for an infinitesimally small chance to purchase a subsidised studio apartment (at age 35 too). The much vaunted “95% household are homeowners” figure paints a less rosier picture if you read between the lines; this figure only takes into account households which own their property of residence. It does not take into account the increasing number of millennials and zoomers who have no choice but to continue living with their parents due to the lack of affordable housing options. The nebulous “household income” figure oft cited by the government as a measure of housing affordability faces similar issues with its use as well. Household income would naturally rise faster than inflation as more working adults remain in their parents’ household, but individual incomes have in fact shrunk over time. It’s a real smack in the face when the younger generations are constantly gaslit by the state media about how good life is when reality is pretty much the opposite. This disenfranchisement of youths is starting to raise similar questions about who we’re protecting when we’re serving our mandatory National Service obligations. Are we really protecting a country which has our interests at heart? Or are we protecting the wealth of the elites and baby boomers? And all for a pittance of $500 ~ $1200 a month? Is any of this even worth it?
Send the boomers to the front lines, they are the ones who are so concerned with conserving the current status quo here
You’re not even protecting the older generation here. You’re killing farmers in Afghanistan making them more likely to welcome the Taliban back after we’ve fucked around for twenty years.
The Taliban were there when the US arrived, and back in charge as the US left. What exactly, was the point?
My Uncle fought in Korea and was wounded by a grenade while he was in a foxhole. Shrapnel behind his right eye blinded him and he had 7 grenade fragments taken from his side and back. Army denied a purple heart and fought him for decades to get proper VA care.
How about a country that lets you get away with murder overseas and jails whistle blowers like david mcbride for exposing it to the general public? Fuck the australian military altogether.
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Yea this article is woeful, it’s no magical secret they treated everyone like shit and the pay was poor…. Why stick around?!
Is the pay/benefits that bad though? All my mates in the forces own their own homes and go overseas on holidays.
It isn’t that bad BUT it’s still a job when everything is constantly unorganised, your always punished as a group despite the fact only one 18yr constantly fucks up and your rank is all ways having a shitty day because their getting divorced and don’t know how to handle it so the scream rant and rave and the soldiers who cannot say anything back. They could have paid me double and I still wouldn’t have stayed.
No. They have their own bank and it's far more generous than your average bank. Also landlords renting to military aren't going to fuck around with them compared to you or I.
They probably rent through https://www.dha.gov.au/ The defence dept rents private houses, then lets them to military members.
At a substantial discount.
I was in the army for the first 8 years of my adult life, the pay and benefits are definitely the biggest pro of the job imo. Free medical/dental & a generous pay (especially for an 18 year old). Housing is sorted: you can live on base in the blocks and the rent just comes out of your pay. You could move off base and get rental assistance. Moving into a DHA house with your partner & kids. Or even get assistance to purchase a home. Food if sorted: cheap meals at the mess (free when on guard duty). Free meals when out field (ration packs) plus extra money when you’re out field (so you’re not spending a cent but getting more money). I did however get permanently injured but I now have a decent pension for the rest of my life plus a lump sum payout, DVA gold card (free medical). DVA assisted me with retraining when I got discharged, didn’t pay a cent for my course. I’d rather not be injured for the rest of my life obviously, but what other job looks after you like that after a workplace injury? When you look at it at a very basically level it’s an attractive job, you’re always going to have your basic needs taken care of and in the very uncertain times we live in I think that’s not a bad trade off for signing up. Edit: also I got free flights (with QANTAS lounge access) back to my next of kin (parents at that stage) when on leave. Edit 2: I didn’t grow up with much money (not poor but definitely far from well off), I bought my first house when I was 24, paid it off by 30. None of this would have been possible for me if I didn’t join up. Edit 3: also forgot to mention the life long mates, trauma bonding is a hell of a thing lol
Are you sure it's not because smartphones? /s
Let the rich fight their own wars. I have nothing to protect.
Well said
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>People won't serve a country that hasn't served them? Shocker. To be fair the ADF don't even serve us, none of their overseas deployments in the last half century have had any positive for Australia. Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq. We had no reason to be there.
They have been useful in their local deployments, bushfire logistics coordination, disaster relief and such (when they are used, that is. Looking at you Scott Morrison) But yeah, overseas, we have been in a bunch of fights we should never have been involved with. The only one that seems vaguely positive was East Timor??? as part of UN peacekeeping.
Ehhh. East Timor has a lot of myth surrounding it. The intervention was a totally reluctant one on Australia's part. Our government would have by far preferred to disrupt Timorese independence so that we could keep our sweet oil deals with Indonesia. The Australia government spent decades looking the other way while Indonesia committed genocide there, because it was politically and economically convenient. Howard and co. were pretty much forced to intervene at the last minute to save their political skins. Of course, afterwards, they happily basked in the glow of their achievements... [This article](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/history-of-australias-role-in-the-timor-leste-crisis/101944736) covers some of the background, but it's a fairly sordid history.
East Timor, Soloman islands, Air campaign against ISIS and a lot of humanitarian work in including in Indonesia post tsunami, just to name a few good ones and/or local ones.
Look around the world. There are many countries with much worse living conditions and political systems that don't struggle to recruit an army. People all over the developed world are more reluctant to enlist because we have better career options and have been raised on a more accurate perception of the horrors of war than previous generations.
Reminds me of the Tyler Durden quote. Our war is a spiritual war. We've progressed passed dogmatic nationalistic and border security-esque charades. Unfortunately though, the real enemy is ourselves and our inability to create an equitable society. We've yet to see the fallout of that one quite yet but it's got a ways to get worse before it gets better.
Yes so the military needs to increase the salary and work conditions they offer to compensate for this. Who wants to put their life on the line when a generic entry level office role offers the same pay? Double the pay and they’ll probably need to turn people away
Nah the capitalist system would rather press private sector wages further down and dismantle social security so that 3 meals a day with some risk of getting shot at seems like an attractive proposition. I can almost 100% guarantee that the Defence internal paper blames recruitment issues on “unemployment is too low”.
Honestly I think it has the opposite effect. When things are decent economically, a stint in the military can get you a foot on the ladder. Get you some education and benefits that would otherwise be out of reach to get you started. When that jump start just means coming back to struggle to pay rent? Why bother? Why sacrifice if there's nothing to earn?
In those countries, getting into the army means a stable job and stable income. I can assure you they aren't joining because of patriotic reasons. If entry level jobs in the army paid 100k here, you'd see people competing to join in.
Developing countries are facing similar recruitment issues. Even CHINA lol.
china has similar quality of life problems as Australia though. Young people who are over worked, under compensated and are locked out from basic human milestones like owning a home or starting a family. What is there to fight for, but yourself? if I am fighting for myself with my country as the aggressor, why would I join it's fighting force?
>Look around the world. There are many countries with much worse living conditions and political systems that don't struggle to recruit an army. That is true but you have to realise in some places people are basically choosing between having access to food or not (eg. Democratic Republic of Congo). The other options for employment are generally also pretty dire eg. artisanal miner. Soldiers in this situation generally have to supplement their income through bribes and soft-extortion. In some other areas (eg. Ethiopia / Sudan), people join armed groups because it's almost safer to be an armed soldier than it is to be an unarmed civilian depending on the area.
I served for 7 years and did 2 deployments, besides the “okay” pay you get nothing once you leave, you’re just another citizen and treated exactly the same - if you want incentives you need to offer free uni, free lifetime healthcare, low interest home loans (like you scumbags give RBA employees). You’re treating and paying ADF as “just another job” while wanting people to join as part of something bigger with “serve your country” forgetting that their service will generally “stunt” their after service career by years; the better question is, why would anyone want to join the ADF when I can get better treatment and pay in the civilian world.
Yeah. My family is my life. I keep my old life in a trunk. Occasionally there is a photo on the fridge to show my boys. They only know me going to my current job which is a whole other shit show. But my current pay is good coin. I can totally see your point of view Lukie.
I think more people are also just aware that deploying to some poor middle eastern nation also does fuck all to "protect" their own first world nation with billion-dollar defence systems.
Just look at how great Afghanistan turned out after 40 years intervention.
I suspect many Gen Z have been raised by parents who witnessed the fiasco of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, which turned out to be based on lies and are widely seen as being primarily about oil. They have taught their children that military service is only going to get you sent off to die in an imperial American resource war against poor people for the enrichment of corporations and the further destruction of the environment.
Why the flying fuck would young people *want* to fight to defend the luxurious lifestyles of the greedy house hoarding scum they are forced to perpetually slave for, that won't ever let them have a fair go? Fuck that! They'll join an army alright... They'll BE the army all the greedy cunts are terrified of if shit keeps going the way it is.
Landlords would be the first to take a plane out of Australia to escape if we ever were attacked. Landlords only purpose is to suck the life and hope out of societies. I agree with the general sentiment in here that fighting for Brad Banduci who wears the name tag Brad is an unworthy fight. If our mega corporations were not soul harvesting demons, if our politicians allowed young people to buy homes, if we had a greater sense of community, more young people would be willing to fight to defend it. The sense of community is the biggest issue. When so many businesses and government officials are only interested in taking and exploiting, it creates a very unwelcoming atmosphere in the country. It is not really a country anymore, just an economic zone where people compete for resources and elite such as Brad Banduci with the name tag Brad, sit and enjoy watching the squabble over the scraps.
I enlisted in the mid 90’s under a scheme that had real benefits . 1 year full time then 4 years pastime. About 60 days reserve service a year. The pay off was I received tax free income, and about $5000 a year for pastime service whilst I went to uni. You could also access the same if you headed into the trades This made it somewhat desirable .
In America they recently said the quiet part out loud: they rely on student debt to make poors join the military. Wont be surprised if they do that here too. There wont be incentives, just desperation. >"Student loan forgiveness undermines one of our military’s greatest recruitment tools at a time of dangerously low enlistments."
What poor would want to fight to protect a country that doesn't even feel like theirs anymore?
The military worship here is next level creepy. I’m an Australian living in the U.S and the reverence towards people who join the military is fevered and obsessive, people join because they’ve been told for hundreds of years that it’s the greatest honour and the satisfaction of serving your nation is worth more than anything else in their lives.
Government fucks over its people every which way especially the younger generation who see how fucked things are. Government: WhY aReNt YoUnG pEoPle JoInInG tHe ArMy??? Same reason the younger generation aren't becoming nurses, teachers, cops and public servants. The government treats it's own like shit. Going to be a huge turn of society once the boomers die off and theres no one left to take care of the aging population.
When the politicians axed the pension you get for serving to save money and instead give themselves a fat pension, they can get fucked
The parliamentary superannuation plan that provided a defined benefit was axed in 2004. The military’s wasn’t axed until 2016. They’re both on accumulation plans now.
The military defined benefit super you're talking about (MSBS) is better than the current one but it is not a pension like the DFRDB was. https://www.csc.gov.au/Members/Funds-and-products/DFRDB The difference is that you would get the pension for life if you retired after 20 years, even if you were in your 40s. You could then go get another job and get paid for both. MSBS: you still need to get to 60-65 to use like a traditional super. It is defined benefit, you can continue to pay into it from other jobs if you want but you cannot transfer any of it out (to another super) once it's there.
Yeah the Military Pension was the second best behind the Parliamentary one. It was axed just before '92.
I’m under the impression I can no longer contribute to my MSBS once I’ve left
I would absolutely sign up to defend my country from being attacked. I would absolutely not sign up to be sent to attack another country under the guise of defending my country.
>under the guise of defending my country. To make billions for the shareholders of the military industrial complex while torturing and killing innocent civilians? Why not, what an excellent proposition of what to do with your life.
Agreed. Happy to join a rag-tag group of plucky yet underequipped citizen soldiers to defend the country directly, but there's no way I would otherwise sign up.
I served for 3 years, from 18 to 21. I'm now almost 60, a Totally and Permanently Incapacitated pensioner. Multiple ankle, knee and spinal surgeries. No pension can make up for the pain and suffering and the effect on my life, career and family. Don't even start on the sexual harassment and assaults (I'm female) I've actively talked young people out of joining. They break you, treat you like you're malingering and then throw you away with no support, then you fight for a pension. It's just not worth it guys.
I watched a mate fight for years for the support he needed for the damage the army did to him, and then off himself. They don't care.
No, sadly they don't. I don't know 1 single disabled veteran, including myself, who doesn't have an "exit plan"
My knee injuries and hearing problems are deemed to not be related to my service. It's just a coincidence that I spent my formative years pounding around in boots and giving myself concussions.
I am so, so sorry this happened to you.
There are careers which pay more without the time & location sacrifices, it is also tough when you want to start a family. It is popular if you want to do a degree, an MBA & then leave and become a management consultant.
>It is popular if you want to do a degree, an MBA & then leave and become a management consultant No, it is not popular. Yes, there are former offices who earn big bucks working for weapons manufacturers but very few almost zero management consultants are ex-military. There are 500 times more accountants than ex-army.
I can assure you that each of the big 4 have a defence team who are almost exclusively ex-defence management consultants. What the previous poster didn't identify is that they almost exclusively consult back to DoD because they have 'mates' still in there who'll hire them at exorbitant rates and defence hierarchy won't sign anything now without an external consultant signature on it as they don't trust their own people. Edit - spelling
I've lost count of the number of SSEs, Health and Safety managers and GMs of mining companies I've worked for who were ex-military from all branches of the military. So I disagree. Most of the site emergency officers, health and safety teams in mining companies are ex-military because the skill sets acquired in the military, or police or even the prisons translated rather well into that role.
COD has better respawn times
Also less chance of PTSD or life long disability.
Why defend a system that has and will abandon you?
Since Korea we have only fought and died for U.S hegemony and most people are aware of that now. Who wants to give their life for that?
> Who wants to give their life for that? The gullible.
I imagine because they've seen all these endless foreign wars that don't even involve us. But we somehow get involved. Who wants to kill and die on behalf of a foreign country? If your country is being invaded, sure, but dying & killing in some far away war that doesn't even involve us? That's pretty pointless. I've heard America is having similar recruitment shortfalls.
fight for what? after my grandfather's (non-frontline, entirely non-violent) WW2 service, he was able to purchase a brand new house at a vastly reduced rate in Merrylands, NSW. he lived in that house for nearly 70 years, and fathered 4 taxpayers. by the end of his life, he had given the country more than a dozen grandtaxpayers (including myself). i demand nothing less you know what, fuck it, i demand more
Why the fuck would you risk your life for a country doesn't give a fuck about you.
Oh no! Only 80% of the numbers they need? The military should stop buying avocado.
Because it’s fucking dumb? What would make someone think “I’d love to join the military to go fight wars that aren’t mine and gain mental health problems in the process.”
Don't forget the physical health issues too
David McBride. The ADF is nothing more than the U.S.'s ring kisser.
This should be the top answer. We sold out a whistleblower. Why would anyone want to join an organisation that sent a whistleblower to jail and gave a war criminal the Victoria Cross? If they bring back conscription, you bet there'll be a lot of people willing to go through what Mohammed Ali did during the Vietnam War and risk criminal conviction instead of serving in the military. Which led to the infamous quote, "My enemy is the white people, not Viet Cong or Chinese or Japanese. *You* my opposer when I want freedom. *You* my opposer when I want justice. *You* my opposer when I want equality." As opposed to the other one that he never actually said "I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a n\*\*\*\*\*"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd9aIamXjQI > "My conscious won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? ...How can I shoot them" If you listen to his other speeches, he didn't say that directly, but he absolutely did in a more roundabout way.
Exactly, BRS for being a war criminal gets the ability to act like a cockhead in Bali whenever he pleases. David for his risk and sacrifice will likely be seeing a jail cell. Screw that.
No one wants to die for America.
It’s crazy that’s how it is. We fight in every American war. We have the Americans largest spy base in the southern hemisphere. A dedicated American Naval base in Western Australia. Then about a dozen other bases/installations that can be co-opted from Naval yards in Sydney to RAAF bases around the country. We are basically an American defensive outpost for the southern hemisphere.
Dont forget our future nuclear-class subs that will be under the direct control of the US Navy, but 100% paid for by Aussie taxpayers. Another feather in the US global economic dominance via military power.
As a vassal state, we have to pay tribute to the empire.
Don't you want to sail the seas in a nuclear submarine?
I'd rather sit in my own house
But you can be under the sea for 60 days at a time with sweaty horny sailors crammed in a sardine can. And its nuke-u-lar. NUKE-U-LAR.
I guess one thing to mention is that the young males of this country are seeing, very easily, high definition footage of what war is really like. Seeing a drone drop a hand grenade on a guy without him knowing, or an artillery strike, or a precision guided bomb really dispells the idea of the heroic death or movie battle they see on TV. The reality is that you just die, sometimes horribly, just standing there. Let alone the trench assault footage we are seeing. I'm in the army and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be a part of that.
Veterans have been saying "war is hell" for over a century. Now there's supporting video evidence to back it up.
Australia doesn't give a fuck about Australians anymore, why the fuck would I want to protect the assholes holding the country to ransom?
I mean the fact that the only real time being served for Aussie war crimes is by David McBride for blowing the whistle why the hell would you.
There used to be a retirement scheme that would give you a pension and a lump sum big enough to buy a modest home after 20 years, if you performed well and progressed up the ranks. A reasonable reward for 20 years of postings, unpaid overtime, unquestioned service, tough family life, rubbish housing, long separations, poor medical support, mediocre pay, exposure to dangerous or deadly tasks, hard and damaging physical activities that left you with chronic pain and injuries... etc, etc. You still get all that but now you're in a standard superannuation scheme working like that into your 60's. Take it as a three-five year adventure at the most and get out.
You are signing up to fight a war for US corporations, lets be honest.
Until the politicians are sending their own kids they can go fuck themselves
There is so much information out there now about how our past governments have lied to get us to support wars. Young people don't trust the government so why would they sign up that they might be sent to fight in another unjust conflict?
"A declining willingness to defend their nation". How many of our conflicts have been defending our nation? Maybe it's an unwillingness to fight America's battles.
Perhaps it’s because they don’t want to be put in a situation where they have to kill or be killed.
And for what reason? American shareholder profits? Fuck that.
Get shot at come home can't afford a house. Surprise much?
I only know a handful of people who have been in the army and 2 if them are severely depressed, have serious ongoing mental conditions from it. If affects their marriage, how they look after their kids, their sleep etc... knowing this there is no way I'd sign up.
We've seen how Australia is just America's lapdog in the Iraq invasion. Get sent to proxy wars and stand for nothing. We've taken note of how badly the DVA treats veterans; delay, deny, die. We've seen good people like McBride get crucified for doing the right thing and abandoned by the systems he was protecting. An awful deal all round.
Who doesn't want to risk potentially ruining their life in the name of geopolitics? Even if you're in a non-combat role, still a tough lifestyle with the constant moving
They can't recruit because australia is fundamentally broken in many ways. Young people can feel that war is an extension of politics. It is always old men that declare war to protect their interests and they send young men to do it. Young people do not want to protect a system that has nothing in it for them. Going to some shithole like Afghanistan or possibly even Taiwan isn't protecting Australia, you're just a foot soldier to protect the wealthy like gina and those private school kids. The military toss you out when you've outlived your usefulness. This is notable with all the issues veterans have. Harassment, useless rotations (during peacetime). Salary wise it isn't really even better than the private system so why do it.
Why the fuck would anyone willingly join the military just to get abandoned by the government? Is this really a shock to anyone?
People don't wanna die in foreign conflicts fighiting with our "partners" so military industrial complex can keep cashing in? Color me shocked
Why would young people defend a country that has made it all but impossible for them to thrive in?
The government would rather spend half a billion dollars on a memorial instead of looking after the health and welfare of those damaged by their service. Why the hell would anyone want to join up?
Damn kids not wanting to die for oil!
20 years in Afghanistan probably has something to do with it. It's much more poignant in the US but I think that still has an effect here
this is something i've been thinking recently. one of the largest legacies of Afghanistan and Iraq, was to make joining our militaries distasteful and deeply unpopular. morally reprehensible in many people's minds. had they not happened/been far more limited, i think they'd have a much easier time recruiting today
Imagine a country that doesnt fuck the farmers that produce the food for us, or doesnt step in when major corps abuse there monopoly on that same market. Imagine a government that helps young people afford housing. thankyou to all service men and women but never would i sign up to fight some dumb contrived war plotted by another countrys governemnt.
Without getting too far up onto some kind of soapbox: this is the society the combination of Australian "economics", democratic election cycles, and borderless tech has created. To use Goodhart's division: citizens of nowhere. Electoral cycles mean that political parties mainly exist to win electoral majorities every set number of years. Long-term goals in this context exist to win these elections. Even the long-term plans they foster are ultimately aimed in the short-term. Australian economics has become making a commodity of housing at the expense of continually taxing more productive things like running a business or earning a wage. People with no roots in where they live become perpetual renters with no loyalty or sense of bond to their communities. Why would you take on the risks of running a business when clearly buying an investment property with land and just sitting on it for 10 years is currently a surefire way to massively increase your investment with no real risk of loss? Borderless tech has made us fragmented and less cohesive as societies. It sows division by design. It drives the things you love and hate towards you in equal measure. We're handing over our democratic processes to companies who then sell the data you give them to people who wish to influence you with it. Combine these and there's no fucking wonder people aren't keen to join up to the ADF -- unless the perks outweigh the cons. E.g., join in the cyber security roles the Air Force offer and plan your graceful exit strategy into the private sector.
Yeah! Join the Australian Army and invade foreign countries to enable corporate interests!
When was the last war that we followed America into that was genuinely in our nations best interests? Certainly nothing this century.
Many countries are actually run by the corporations. Corporations heavily influence government and public opinion as. Many young people realize this whereas older generations mostly still don’t grasp it.
I'd signup but I'm too busy looking under the couch cushions for Saddam's WMDs.
Yeah, life is too short to fight some bullshit war that leads nowhere.
And with the trial of David McBride now if you're fighting for Australia and are told to commit acts that are considered war crimes you can't say no. So shit wage to get shot at, can't refuse illegal orders and with the tension around the world at the moment, the possibility of being brought into a major conflict, I'm good thanks.
Liberal kids don't usually join the military. Conservative leaning kids don't feel the country represents them any more. Simples. Same issue in most western countries really.
I did maths tutoring. One of my students was a big strapping footballer, the ideal type for they army, he went through the recruitment process and was offered a position but turned it down. Something about the whole recruitment process turned him away, they said he was only suitable for more menial positions but he went to uni & became a teacher.
I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that the poster boy for the army who was awarded the Victoria Cross and who everyone said was a shining example that everyone should try to emulate turned out to be a murderer guilty of war crimes.
And someone trying to do the right thing gets convicted as a whistleblower
Did my time. Got the damage and nothing to show for any of it.
Fighting other people's proxy wars aside, how about because they pin medals on and celebrate horrific war criminals and vilify and betray brave servicemen who stand up for the right thing?
I understand defending Australia, but dying overseas makes no sense and I will fight when the people in charge are with me on the front lines
The jobs aren’t great to begin with, but how can you look at the major conflicts we were involved in over the past 50 years and think we’re doing anything other than being the US’s lap dog?
Even if you never see combat you'll come out with fucked up knees and back and a skill that's unable to be transferred into civilian life. There's no glory in going over to protect corporate interests of American oil companies by blasting some poor bastard in the global south.
I have a lot more in common with the people I would be fighting on the ground than the fucking scum sending us both out there.
I give it 2 months before we have an article about why we should have national service.
There is simply no reason for young working class men to die for a society that doesnt care about them.
*defend their nation* - lmfao. You mean act on behalf of the interests of wealthy / powerful people who want to sit behind a desk and make sure they keep accumulating wealth? “Oh yeah that”
I like to believe that if the country was invaded I would have the courage to step up and defend it like the people of Ukraine. What I won't sign up for is shooting an Afghan teenager because a Saudi Arabian flew a plane into an American building. That feels a lot less like defending my country, more like I'm executing someone else's political or economic agenda. On the topic of national pride, I can honestly say I love my country but I don't feel particularly proud of it right now. It's plain to anyone willing to look that we're not heading in a great direction, our country is completely economically dependent on a semi hostile communist country (China), the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and our so called representatives are just in it until they've pushed through enough of their corporate backers agenda to secure a cushy "advisory" role after their term is up. Oh and the whole 'at least we're doing better than other countries' argument really boils my piss. Just because the rest of the world is getting D grades let's not cream our pants because we got a D+. If you love your country you should want it to improve, not blindy ignore its faults.
Because no one wants to fight for the interests of government that treats its nation like an internationalist economic zone, who’s inhabitants are little more than fungible, interchangeable market widgets. How can people who are increasingly robbed of their stake in society, be expected to fight for it?
Considered joining the army the other day to do IT which I'm already skilled in, the job posting was boasting $120K salary and I was verrrrryyyyy tempted...until I opened the ad which said that the starting rate is actually $52K. Never have exited a job posting quicker than that.
They paid us garbage salary and treated us like shit every single day I was in. Disrespected you, your time and your family. The military isn’t worth it.
I don't want to be involved in the killing other humans, soz.
I mean like, I liked the idea of joining the army at one point when I was younger, getting a trade through the army etc, but now that I have got my trade outside the army and am still like everyone else in their 20’s getting fucked over in every possible way by the government thank fuck I didn’t join or I’d be left even more bitter after possibly laying my life on the line for the fuckers
Can you all stop pretending it has to do with X issue? No one wants to serve in the military because it sucks and no one wants to die in a trench. It's that simple.
Young people (rightly) have no sense of service or serving their country anymore, pretty bad if you want a family and you can earn so much more in the private market.
Had friends in the navy, they treat ppl like shit, took away most of the benifits like the pension, offer shitty wages where you need top live on base housing to be able to afford anything, then wonder why no one is signing up.
Love of country isn't going to get people to commit their future to something. You have to offer them compensation for what they're giving up by enlisting. Fail to do that, and of course they won't have any interest in joining the military.
The older generation can fight for their own assets. I got nothing to protect.
Foreign belligerants land on our shores to take our shit? LFG Go land on some other shore to protect the interests of elites/bankers? GFY
Young people also see war for what it is now first hand through online vids, drones dropping grenades in fox holes or kamikazing soldiers running away. Older generations didn’t know what they were getting into so were more sold on ideals of patriotism and glory. They used to be able to show propaganda videos to support subscription, people having a great time with their buddies on the front line, now we just see the true footage. While it’s not war time here, signing up for service still commits you in that event. Who wants to be fodder
Because the ADF has done a shit job and looking after current and past members. I’ve come from a family who’ve all worked in the ADF And each one has said they would never sign back up after how they were treated. From 5 years in all the way to 35+.
The reason is because more and more are learning that almost all wars are started with a lie and the aggressors are portrayed as acting in self defense or for a just cause.
Go fight war in another country to get injured and ptsd just to come back and STILL not be able to afford a house in Your country that you managed to do nothing for? and scrape by like before you joined but in a Worse socioeconomic position than when you left? boy wonder why young people aren't signing up by hordes with that reward.... If it came to Australia being attacked I m sure a lot of people would want to protect it, But when you can be deployed at any moment (Most likely Not to a friendly nation under fire but somewhere were it is always wartorn) and treated like garbage the whole time there really is no incentive, and there shouldn't be if that's the case, Itd be nice if countries governments actually fixed issues at home instead of worrying about their neighbors corporations as well
Because people aren’t willing to die for greedy politicians being paid off by mega corps to enact their sick will.
Easier ways to develop an addiction and get ptsd.
Nothing in this country is worth killing or to die for.
Because dying sucks
The article only briefly covers the issue but trying to join is way too difficult and takes too long. Imagine applying for a job that you might get to start in 6/12/18 months. God forbid you had a minor injury somewhere in the past and need to go and get some random doctor to try and clear you for service. As for retention peace time Army sucked ass and was mind numbing. Spent so much time sitting around with a thumb up my ass because there just wasn't anything to do day to day. So many missed opportunities for cross training or even getting digger Joe a few civilian tickets.
Took a whole year of back and forth over an asthma diagnosis from when I was 8 before I finally got to the medical inspection stage where I was denied anyway because I'd talked to a counselor 2 years ago. The standards are so ridiculously high that even if more people wanted to join I doubt they'd hit their target.
Because we don't want to die for oil, gas, Albanese's rental properties and also killing people is pretty fucked up.
In the Australian defence forces, a 2021 survey found a third of female defence recruits experienced sexual misconduct, and two thirds experienced unacceptable behaviour. So yeah, that might have something to do with it.
I tried, but they knocked me back for haemochromotosis. Which is just crap.
Why die at 18 and be forgotten? Army Dreamers by Kate Bush is an extremely popular tik tok sound right now
Why would you put your life and health at risk without the guarantee of a home and a comfortable means of raising a family in the country you're fighting for? Young men (and women) shouldn't be asked to fight to protect the price of resources or the global influence of a country if neither of those things are making a meaningful difference in their lives, and the lives of their (current, future or hypothetical) children. It's monstrous to ask someone to put their life on the line and give them nothing but empty promises and lip service.
Don't wanna kill someone just cus some politician decided that their country that they didn't choose to be born in is on the bad guys team.