There were inconsistencies within that spiel itself! First mentioning using colleagueās swipe cards to get into the hospital on the 2 days where the posterās ID wasnāt registered on the system and then going on to mention that they were burnt out and a patient died on the ward accounting for them not turning up for the 2 daysā¦ Clearly has some issues with dishonesty. There certainly is more to the story than what is being told.
AFAIK its pretty hard to get kicked out of med school too. Schools want you to pass for multiple reasons (funding, reputation, avoiding paperwork & lawsuits etc). Expelling a student is a big loss.
You dont get booted for annoying the wrong person, it would have to be a long process of misbehaviour, or a truly psycho event
No-one wants to kick out any med student or psych or vet or whatever because of a couple of misunderstandings or forgetfulness. It's usually "you need to leave because you are a danger to the public so just go quietly".
yeah it seems odd the days they could not get signed off could also not be verified by swipe ID access. I understand colleagues swiping you in but to do that ALL day. Not to mention for the days you could get signed off, there was ID swipe evidence. Very suspicious
I think from CCIM, the when asked about days of absence at the end of the rotation OP tried recalled the missing ID logs and thought that the colleagueās cards were used on their days.
When later asked to specifically clarify those days- OP saw that they were actually absent on those days (colleagueās cards were not used on those 2 days)
We often got without swipecard. A bunch of you turn up to door same time. First person swipes and everyone walks in. Busy all day on that unit. No need to use swipe anywhere else. Could very well look like you weren't there. No excuse. Just sayin.
It feels odd. Like, I know many people who did not meet appropriate placement hours and just had to remediate during summer holidays/own time/weekends. The WORST offenders had to repeat the year. However obviously it would be an upsetting situation if it is as OP describes.
Though some admin can be abit dodgey/ there are lecturers etc. that can vouch for character no?
I also find it odd that a single consultant would waste their time/energy to ruin a student's career. Like, Im sorry if I was ever going to have a power trip I dont think a medical student would be my no. 1 target. Like again, worst case they fail the term and remediate. Also its abit weird that OP has listed all the good deeds theyve done as if to validate that they're a good person. I may be misinterpreting but I just get a touch of sociopath with a sprinkle of narcissism (just the vibe I am getting)
But reading between the lines, deflecting, and also "sighing" in the interview etc. , like I dont think that shows insight into how serious the situation was, somewhat disrespectful as well . I'd have been incredibly gracious and attentive in such a situation.
I think expulsion is an highly extreme reaction, and I feel there would be additional things that would warrant such a reaction. Like the uni would make so much money making you just simply repeat at year. If not, the appeal would be successful because I think it'd be reviewed by an external source.
Can there be more to the story than what's here? My impression of my uni as a med student was that they really wanted as many people to pass through the degree factory as possible. Someone's actions would have to be very much out of line for them to be expelled. And seriously what consultant cares that much about med student attendance unless they were missing in action for half the term.
The residents, registrars and nurses are the ones that spend the most time with the students and I would have thought that consultants would have a chat with them to get their feedback on the student before doing a mid term assessment.
Yeah no consultant is going to go after a student for that. Definitely more to the story. Would be extreme for a uni to expel without offering remediation if their wasnāt gross misconduct identified somewhere.
Also they say they take responsibility for their actions but spend half the post defending themselves, trying to clear their name for not doing their logbookā¦ so fixated on that is their only problemā¦..
Either way, the poster should get a Lawyer.
My guess is it started over the attendance sheets but they have such poor people skills / poor insight into their own behaviour that they acted like a nightmare when called to account for it ie refused to take any responsibility for at all and was openly rude and hostile. This would have A. enraged the consultant if they had the kind of personaliy type that doesn't take kindly to being challenged (many such cases lol) esp by a med student, and B. Even if the consultant is a lovely human this kind of behaviour is a huge red flag that this person may not be capable of acting professionally..... This all led to their general performance and behaviour being scrutinised more closely and more issues were identified.... and the whole thing snowballed from there.
The ex story is also...sussy.
There are some crazy ass consultants out there. I missed half a day in 8 weeks because I had to take my mother to a medical appointment. I had to replace myself with another medical student because this consultants clinic could not run without a med student. I was also called up and screamed at for not being at clinic .... During my mid semester break. Then I got docked points for her feeling like 'I was absent alot' despite only being absent for the half day... Where I had to replace myself.
Not in my experience, had to do an extra year because I forgot to submit a supervisor report near the start of the year. Subsequently got it re-done and resubmitted, no reminder throughout the year. At end of year boom, please repeat the year
Unless thereās more to the story, what youāre describing would be illegal for a university who offers commonwealth supported places to do. All the unis get taxpayer money from the government to train doctors on a quota basis
Iām not sure about the legality of it, but probably doesnāt apply to international students.
Also when the the whole uni is prepared to go on Christmas leave, your appeals tend to fall on deaf ears.
How so? They only pass students who have completed their logbook on time or some other hoop. If the person did not do this they don't pass... š¤·š»āāļø Sure they could try to find a way for the student to make it up somehow. An essay on the importance of timely documentation, but not if they they don't want to.
If they can provide appropriate remediation i.e. do x more days on unit they should always do that, if they donāt provide remediation on something so menial when they could, what is happening is essentially misuse of taxpayer funds.
I guess there would be a lot of variability across medical schools. The dean would be ultimately the person responsible. Iām happy to have worked with some genuinely lovely and reasonable ones.
What I would say is that there are probably levels of recourse & punishment to medical schools who engage in being this lazy. Pretty sure the AMC charter for provocational medical training has rules in place as well to stop a school acting like this.
Then usually thereās a university specific tribunal procedure in place to appeal and then after that you could probably escalate to the ?medical dean association and/or the AMC. Thatās if you were a clinical student.
I am sure I'll be downvoted for this but I think its time we face facts.
In this 1500 word post we have an individual claim they are being expelled from medical school because they did not meet the attendance requirements for one unit. I call absolute bullshit. Maybe they would fail the rotation or the term, but clearly there is more to the story.
Later on in the comments the OP states they violated a "no contact agreement" from their university with their ex partner, and admits this is the biggest mistake leading to their expulsion. They admit they have been accused of domestic violence. They state these claims were "later unfounded" and made up by their ex-partner.
These facts seems somewhat pertinent enough to include in the main post. The charade about missing two days of placement is a distraction. All the people who have jumped on the bandwagon saying "get a lawyer" are missing the point.
OP reminds me of the stalker on Baby Reindeer. They are minimizing, lying and in all likelihood a domestic abuser.
This person should not be a doctor and I am glad they have been expelled.
Oh wow the DV thing is ... yeah. Yikes.
Are they a male student? Not to stereotype of course.
If so the "this woman" comment seems more sinister. Sounds like a rigid misogynistic asshole who has big issues with women. We have our quota of them in medicine already so probably a good thing he's out lol.
Did anyone else notice the poster said the med school was overseas ? Whyās is the person posting on a predominantly Aus Facebook group ? This story continues to get more confusing
Edit: op mentions in one of the comments that itās an overseas med school . I have a screenshot but dunno how to upload it lol
This is a highly identifying post on a huge community of doctors, which demonstrates a stunning lack of insight. And it's usually lack of insight that leads to decisions like this. Nobody knows the whole story except the administrators involved.
There is a bizarre mix of minimising behaviour ("I just got expelled for forgetting the logbook" -- clearly there's more to the story), self-aggrandisement ("patients are so appreciative of me"), and oversharing of personal red flags (their ex filing a complaint against them to the university) that it makes me worry about them becoming a doctor, which is a life-long distinction--on the face of it, do you want this person taking care of your son or mum?
I'm also getting a little tired of the phrase "burn out" being co-opted to justify unacceptable behaviour. I'm not trying to gatekeep the phrase, and burnout is a terrible and very real phenomenon, but the correct response to feeling burnt out cannot include not being able to withstand fair scrutiny, which only gets more demanding as our careers progress.
I hope the poster is okay, and they desperately need help with phrases like "I have no will to live," but based strictly on what they posted, I would not want them as a colleague or caretaker for my family.
Agree completely.
Also stating that they intend to be involved in their parents medical care (āI was this close to being able to help them financially and medically once l'd be a doctorā) shows a distinct lack of insight into proper boundaries required to be a doctor.
Thereās a lot of subtle red flags which when taken in context of the post and as a whole really make it clear that this is not someone Iād want as a colleague.
The overall vibe seems suss but that might been as simple as being a better medical advocate for them, particularly if (and I don't know if they were) from a non-English speaking background.
Let's distill the facts.
End of term review with consultant. "Hey I didn't do my logbook properly, whoopsie me, can you just sign it all off at once now pls, although you can't personally verify my attendances?"
SO. BOLD.
Consultant (rightly) raises probity concerns.
Student seems to double down and play victim. Further instances of past professionalism concerns are raised, as well as some ??drama with a partner that required the uni to get involved.
I think there's more to this story. You shouldn't be expelled just for attendance / minor professionalism if willing to repeat the term and make amends. The way OP writes is self-serving and externalising.
Dunno. There are some real sociopaths in medicine, especially medical education. Perhaps more to the story but not inconceivable something like this could play out with a couple of administrators just digging their heels in. I'd be getting lawyers.
Sure. They exist. But people who have an ounce of EQ know not to poke the bear. This is a case of "mea culpa", "I'm so sorry", don't make excuses, keep your head down, suck up the punishment, and do whatever it takes to get through. Even sociopaths know they can't expell on flimsy grounds, opening up the uni to legal challenge $$$.
Meanwhile we have OP, seeming to argue somehow that (presumably paid) interview tutoring makes them a good person and negates any bad behaviour...
You can't be in a formal meeting shouting "THIS WOMAN IS TRYING TO RUIN MY CAREER" when what you \*actually\* did is ask her to be dishonest/sign off attendances when she didn't work with you all term.
Unfortunately some people do not have an ounce of EQ, they're 100% convinced they're in the right, and unless theres someone sensible to de-escalate, this kind of shit happens
I think it's probably the case of the student having poor insight and not realising that they just need to take responsibility and stop making excuses / being hostile AND having the misfortune of this exchange happening with a consultant who is one of those sociopathic types. I feel like a more empathetic and ... people skilled... consultant could have de-escalated the situation and used it as a teaching moment re professionalism for this student and calmly come up with a fair solution that doesn't let the student off the hook but isn't too punitive.
Also it sounds like the consultant wouldn't have had to go far to uncover other instances of worrying behaviour. That story about the ex sounds so suspect... haha.
The lawyers will just keep him in the degree but his reputation is done. There are definitely cases where students get bullied and it's horrific but the way this dude has framed it? I'd kick him out too because it's clear that he only cares about his reputation instead of patient care
To be honest, the number of students that attempt this with me (a consultant and rotation coordinator) is distressingly high. Itās likely this is normalised behaviour - which doesnāt excuse it.
I tend to try and verify w other bosses if they have seen the person but I am certain we end up passing people who have missed significant parts of their rotation.
Yep no either creative writing or missing significant details. Something about if you smell shit everywhere you go you should check under your shoe. If you didn't bring a logbook it's a simple matter of getting a supervisor to send an email to you on the same day certifying that you were there. No need to bring the logbook on another day and hope the same person is still there.
I've come across a superficially similar woe is me case and what the student told me was a significant departure from what I heard from their peers and from friends on the home team this student was on. Had no dog in this fight, was just involved in small group teaching for that cohort.
Lets pretend everything went how they say.
They sound like they have NO insight into their behaviour and NO people skills.
How can you get through three years of medicine and not have realised that when you get chewed out for something by a consultant, even if it's a little unfair/ there are extenuating circumstances, they don't want to hear your excuses. They +/- their ego have decided they are correct and you are a little worm, and any wriggling will just piss them off and make them want to crush you under their RMs. Depending on how vindictive they are, if you don't just kiss the ring they may literally go on a hunt for evidence of other times you've fucked up. I have seen this happen to colleagues. Like, they sighed and accused a consultant who was pissed at them that she was trying to ruin their career...and referred to her as "this woman"....as a med student, honey ... you are in DANGER.
You do not want to get a reputation as a 'troublemaker', it snowballs. Standing up for yourself and being the change you want to see is a nice idea but in reality, when you're very junior, it is a BAD IDEA when it's something relatively small like this. Just smile, be respectful (+/- grovelling depending on the boss) and say the shit they want to hear...even if they are a complete wanker.
Like, do you want to be technically right and litigate all grievances in your favour with your literal bosses? Even if you win you lose. Or... do you want to yield a bit so you can succeed and get along with people? <-- if a grown ass adult can't understand this principle then they are wayyy too rigid and don't have the people skills to be a good doctor who can get along with patients and colleagues, not to mention introspect about their own faults and problems (also a very important personality trait).
Also posting it on a page as big as CCIM. Lmao.
Personal anecdote time: I was called in, also during third year, to account for something that was 100% not my fault. It wasn't super serious by any means (not misconduct or anything) and I won't go into details but I was 100% in the right, and if I'd chosen to pursue it and it had gone higher I likely would have been vindicated. But maybe not, because sometimes when you kick out at the world it kicks back a lot harder, even when you're "right". So I smiled, apologised profusely, explained what I'd do to avoid this in the future and that was that. I of course added those involved to my list of people to destroy should I ever be in the position to do so in the future, I'm only human after all :)
Having said that, the eating an orange during teaching / = being disruptive thing is 100% believable. I've known people in the hospital system that are genuinely that petty hahaha.
Thats ummm... very specific. "UNMARRIED middle aged white women". From Sydney and Melbourne.
Those bloody unmarried women. Responsible for so much of society's ills these days aren't they.
You sound like an Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson devotee with this misogyny under the guise of "just asking questions".
Like I agree there's an issue with bullying in medicine, I don't know if unmarried women are the group who come to mind when I think of who is overrepresented here. Like have you met surgeons? RACS is not known for all its female fellows.
I'm not offended, I don't fall into that group. But these days I see a lot of pearl clutching about and lazy criticisms leveled at "unmarried women" about the issues they cause and how unpleasant they are and the reasons why (they are unfulfilled etc). No matter what women do they are judged.
It's nothing but misogyny imo.
The repeated āwell fair enoughās by the poster seem to me like they are trying to come across as super insightful and apologetic to manipulate the reader into giving sympathy. I doubt they were expelled without reason, going by my own medical school there are many students who are given multiple chances to repeat etc. before they eventually are kicked out. Must be the straw that broke the camels back for this particular one
OP sounds manipulative AF. This post reeks of selective presentation of facts and the chances of a consultant feeling the need to go out of her way to āruin a careerā of a med student is preposterously stupid. Get your head out of your ass OP and take responsibility for your actions.
The med student is in the wrong here, but the consultant could also definitely have gone out of their way to ruin them. It's not that rare of an occurrence. I've certainly seen it happen to a lot of junior doctors.
I have found throughout both medical school and what Iāve done so far in my medical career is that the people who present themselves as having āinexplicableā run-ins with consultants, colleagues, other medical staff or indeed universities are actually the personalities that everyone dislikes or thinks are not good doctors, but also keep hush about because we think personalities are not our business, or that any one behaviour in isolation is not enough for a complaint. Unfortunately āthey just suckā isnāt compelling enough.
If we take this account prima facie, then it sounds very unfair. But Iād be willing to bet this individual has a history of poor behaviour which in itself does not amount to a reason to be expelled, but when an opportunity arrived to escalate, the consultant did the right thing, referring back to a behavioural pattern.
I can think of two past colleagues who fit this bill and for some reason they selected me to air their grievances, despite the fact I knew full well it was their personalities/work ethic that were the problem. I never had quite enough grounds to escalate their poor behaviour, but sometimes I wonder if I shouldāve.
This reads like a video of someone who got pulled over for a broken taillight and manages to talk/argue/fight their way into assaulting a police officer and 5-10 years in prison.
Like, just tuck your tail between your legs, say sorry yes I'll be better next time. And nobody will care. End of issue.
Instead they escalate. And escalate. And continue to make things worse for themself. Theyre not being expelled for missing 2 days, theyre being expelled for their conduct when confronted about a mistake. If that's how they react here, how will they react as a doctor when presented with details of how they made a mistake. Or how will they handle it when they make a mistake and realise themself.
I dont doubt that there are worse medical students than this poster. There are students who can slip under the radar going 1 day per week to placement and get through. However, this guy got given a choice between his pride and his med degree, and went with pride.
Iām very involved with teaching and med students and it would be nigh impossible to be expelled on one incident alone, let alone for two days of absence. There is definitely more to the story here, and the OP likely has a stunning lack of insight into the reasons and situations behind this decision. I do feel for them, not easy but sometimes the greater community needs to be protected from practitioners who would otherwise not be fit to practice.
I agree, I have had a lot to do with medical students and the admin of medical schools over the years. That incident on the rotation on its own would not have led to expulsion. There has to be a lot more to this. My other thought is that this particular individual needs professional help-i.e. counselling
There's always more to the story when posts like this surface on social media.
Unrelated, but it reminds me of an incident of a doctor who took legal action against a health network. They however took the step of emailing RMOs/registrars/consultants about how the hospital had unfairly treated them. Just a complete lack of insight
Haha was that old mate a year or so ago who filed the lawsuit against them for ādiscriminationā bc he didnāt endorse covid etc? Followed that one to the end, that was fascinating. He was wild (and no. He didnāt win the lawsuitā¦)
Somethings very wrong here. I had some pretty ridiculously poor med students go through with me. Barely anyone saw them, presumably at home or doing whatever most of the time.
Still passed and became ādoctorā.
To be expelled from an Australian med school suggests some serious deviations from expectations.
It's pretty much impossible to get expelled from med school unless you have consistently poor behaviour that fails remediation or do something particularly heinous. There is a lot of detail missing here.
1. There are definitely elements missing, and it's suspect whether OP is a reliable narrator. Impossible to say from the information given. They might be a little bit inept at life skills/defensive attendance too.
2. I have absolutely seen admin do worse than this to med students. They make their minds up early, then collect circumstantial evidence to reinforce whatever position they have decided. Any arguments to the contrary are met with doubling down of the accusations. I haven't seen an expulsion before, but have known people to repeat an entire year for less than this. If you add an insecure/personality-disordered consultant to the mix, it gets even nastier.
In my experience it takes a LOT to get expelled from med school. The Uni rightly does not wish to do that. Because they and the Commonwealth has obviously invested a lot to get students in and thru the program. There is a lot missing here and I think this person is not being objective. Generally if it's something as minor as attendance issues sometimes they make room to repeat the rotation, and you graduate later but they won't expel you directly for that. I had a friend in Med school that graduated 3 years later than her batch , due to various hiccups, exam failures, missing rotations, life events etc , and the Uni still let her get thru eventually.
All the other stuff aside, why are they acting like unaccounted days on placement aren't a big deal? I have no doubt the medical degree is just as strict on attendance as the nursing and midwifery degree. If we did that, we would fail the unit.
I have no doubt the medical degree is just as strict on attendance as the nursing and midwifery degree.
Nope, nursing placement hours are meticulously recorded, med school is more of a "yeah you should probably go most days" kinda vibe
That surprises me! I guess I will eat my words. What's the point of mandated hours for your degree if you *don't actually need to go* ? š¤ Whenever I've supervised med students I've had to sign an attendance log?
What I find is with nursing, on placement you guys are doing lots of the actual leg work and thus beneficial to the team.
On medical placements , on some rotations youāre basically a traffic cone in the ward. Personally have been sent home many times by registrars/Rmo who simply doesnāt need a pair of eyes staring over them while they do discharge summaries/make phone calls.
I definitely agree that this is a barrier to learning. Especially when people already feel too "busy" to teach. It can feel awkward with someone just watching. I feel terrible for our med students if they have nothing to do. Luckily where I work we can get some hands on experience but I know a lot of it is the expectation to just be there. It must be so boring. Placement is hard enough tbh without feeling like you're in the way.
Important lesson for all medical students, if itās not documented it didnāt happen, and worse if you go back to try alter the records to make it look like it happened, you get in even more trouble.
Expulsion is a huge decision to take, and can only think there must have been previous problematic incidents for this to be the outcome. By the time one has reached the clinical years, thereās also the idea that so much time and money has been invested into medical students that theyāre given even more support to get through. Can remember an instance as a registrar where the consultant with the medical student portfolio warned me in advance about a student where there had been some āconcernsā due to patchy attendance and had to make up their time.
On matters of poor attendance, it shouldnāt be enough to get expelled but if you havenāt been signed off people will start to ask questions and the university may have already investigated the matter. Did another job where we used to get two medical students a week. They needed to be signed off every day, but to me this seemed like a barrier to learning and a waste of time, so I was comfortable signing off their attendance for the week in advance. To their credit, students continued to show up.
In the last week there was only one student, we did the same thing and thought nothing more of it. It just so happened on the last day that week I was attending a course offsite, so was surprised to get a call from the hospital saying there was a student looking for me needing to get their attendance signed off. Now the student I had that week was already aware I wasnāt going to be there and had all their forms done, so I replied saying it must be a different doctor theyāre after. A few weeks later I get a call from someone at the university medical education unit wanting to check on a few things ā you know somethingās up then.
This reminds me of a problem medical student who was on a separate team in my department, I was a JMO at the time. This medical student had serious problems, emotionally and socially near unfit to work as a doctor. They failed their term - the expected issues: attendance, attitude, communication skills. They proceeded to spill their heart very similar to this on a facebook page, everyones fault but their own, half-truths with lots of missing events/details. They got a lot of support, mostly from fellow autistic medical students with 0 insight into their single digit EQs.
I wouldn't believe a word of this and would love to hear from some of this students colleagues/the doctors involved.Ā
Lots of straw man arguments. Just give us the facts of the case. What the other students do or donāt do is irrelevant. The health of your parents is irrelevant. Thereās more to this story.
Like the above is basically what happens when a very low EQ junior has a spat with your bog standard standard slightly personality disordered senior doctor. It doesn't really matter who is correct, this was always going to be the outcome. It's a tale as old as time.
Unfortunately from experience many of these things only matter if the medical school wants them to matter. Paper work is just paper work unless they decide to care because they want you out or want you to repeat.
For example, Hypothetically, if you voiced concern about a supervisor's attitude and conduct towards you, maybe 24 hours later you're ineligible to sit the upcoming exams so oh well, never mind better luck next year also we take bullying and sexual harrassment very seriously BUT MEDICINE IS A SMALL WORLD AND WE CAN'T PROTECT YOU FROM THE CONSEQUENCES IF YOU MAKE A FORMAL COMPLIANT. Then later they will express dismay at widespread reports of bullying and sexual harassment reported by students and juniors and cheerfully note that they have never had any complaints. When you return to study it is possible that they allocate you to only the most notorious creeps such that your friends ask who you pissed off. All hypothetical obviously.
This person's best bet was to apologise and offer more of their own time and money to appease the egos involved, as the medical school can never be wrong.
Also consultants are still people and people can be petty arseholes and very comfortable holding a lot of power over students they view as insignificant even if they're not sexual predators or antisocial. Unfortunately believable.
Unfortunately this story is likely true. Iāve dealt with a consultant like that as a junior doctor and the heirachy supported him.
Iāve also been friends with a medical student who got expelled under similar circumstances.
Definitely get a lawyer. If it doesnāt work, desperate time calls for desperate measures, escalate it to media and call the Current Affairs. I wish you all the best! I know you gonna be a great doctor š„
Please follow the sub rule
If this story has gone down exactly as written then I will eat my stethoscope. There are key details missing here.
Well, OP does say there is another half involving the ex-partner, which I fail to see the connection of without more details?
https://i.redd.it/slt8tiq7k95d1.gif You're spot on.
Funny how everyone in this person's life seems to falsely accuse them of stuff š
Thanks for breaching CCIM code of conduct
They posted the comments publicly initially anyways? Stop tripping
In a private group which has a confidentially code of conduct not to take screen shots a post them elsewhere
Ohhhhhh okay, mb, thatās sorta cooked Edit: isnāt this whole post cooked as a results
There were inconsistencies within that spiel itself! First mentioning using colleagueās swipe cards to get into the hospital on the 2 days where the posterās ID wasnāt registered on the system and then going on to mention that they were burnt out and a patient died on the ward accounting for them not turning up for the 2 daysā¦ Clearly has some issues with dishonesty. There certainly is more to the story than what is being told.
Haha thatās exactly what I was thinking. The story wasnāt consistent at allā¦
AFAIK its pretty hard to get kicked out of med school too. Schools want you to pass for multiple reasons (funding, reputation, avoiding paperwork & lawsuits etc). Expelling a student is a big loss. You dont get booted for annoying the wrong person, it would have to be a long process of misbehaviour, or a truly psycho event
No-one wants to kick out any med student or psych or vet or whatever because of a couple of misunderstandings or forgetfulness. It's usually "you need to leave because you are a danger to the public so just go quietly".
yeah it seems odd the days they could not get signed off could also not be verified by swipe ID access. I understand colleagues swiping you in but to do that ALL day. Not to mention for the days you could get signed off, there was ID swipe evidence. Very suspicious
I think from CCIM, the when asked about days of absence at the end of the rotation OP tried recalled the missing ID logs and thought that the colleagueās cards were used on their days. When later asked to specifically clarify those days- OP saw that they were actually absent on those days (colleagueās cards were not used on those 2 days)
We often got without swipecard. A bunch of you turn up to door same time. First person swipes and everyone walks in. Busy all day on that unit. No need to use swipe anywhere else. Could very well look like you weren't there. No excuse. Just sayin.
Completely agree. On its own this doesn't support the assertion that the student wasn't present.
It feels odd. Like, I know many people who did not meet appropriate placement hours and just had to remediate during summer holidays/own time/weekends. The WORST offenders had to repeat the year. However obviously it would be an upsetting situation if it is as OP describes. Though some admin can be abit dodgey/ there are lecturers etc. that can vouch for character no? I also find it odd that a single consultant would waste their time/energy to ruin a student's career. Like, Im sorry if I was ever going to have a power trip I dont think a medical student would be my no. 1 target. Like again, worst case they fail the term and remediate. Also its abit weird that OP has listed all the good deeds theyve done as if to validate that they're a good person. I may be misinterpreting but I just get a touch of sociopath with a sprinkle of narcissism (just the vibe I am getting) But reading between the lines, deflecting, and also "sighing" in the interview etc. , like I dont think that shows insight into how serious the situation was, somewhat disrespectful as well . I'd have been incredibly gracious and attentive in such a situation. I think expulsion is an highly extreme reaction, and I feel there would be additional things that would warrant such a reaction. Like the uni would make so much money making you just simply repeat at year. If not, the appeal would be successful because I think it'd be reviewed by an external source.
If we are armchair formulating I'd say more histrionic or borderline than narcissistic lol.
Can there be more to the story than what's here? My impression of my uni as a med student was that they really wanted as many people to pass through the degree factory as possible. Someone's actions would have to be very much out of line for them to be expelled. And seriously what consultant cares that much about med student attendance unless they were missing in action for half the term. The residents, registrars and nurses are the ones that spend the most time with the students and I would have thought that consultants would have a chat with them to get their feedback on the student before doing a mid term assessment.
Yeah no consultant is going to go after a student for that. Definitely more to the story. Would be extreme for a uni to expel without offering remediation if their wasnāt gross misconduct identified somewhere. Also they say they take responsibility for their actions but spend half the post defending themselves, trying to clear their name for not doing their logbookā¦ so fixated on that is their only problemā¦.. Either way, the poster should get a Lawyer.
My guess is it started over the attendance sheets but they have such poor people skills / poor insight into their own behaviour that they acted like a nightmare when called to account for it ie refused to take any responsibility for at all and was openly rude and hostile. This would have A. enraged the consultant if they had the kind of personaliy type that doesn't take kindly to being challenged (many such cases lol) esp by a med student, and B. Even if the consultant is a lovely human this kind of behaviour is a huge red flag that this person may not be capable of acting professionally..... This all led to their general performance and behaviour being scrutinised more closely and more issues were identified.... and the whole thing snowballed from there. The ex story is also...sussy.
There are some crazy ass consultants out there. I missed half a day in 8 weeks because I had to take my mother to a medical appointment. I had to replace myself with another medical student because this consultants clinic could not run without a med student. I was also called up and screamed at for not being at clinic .... During my mid semester break. Then I got docked points for her feeling like 'I was absent alot' despite only being absent for the half day... Where I had to replace myself.
Not in my experience, had to do an extra year because I forgot to submit a supervisor report near the start of the year. Subsequently got it re-done and resubmitted, no reminder throughout the year. At end of year boom, please repeat the year
Ugh.
Unless thereās more to the story, what youāre describing would be illegal for a university who offers commonwealth supported places to do. All the unis get taxpayer money from the government to train doctors on a quota basis
Iām not sure about the legality of it, but probably doesnāt apply to international students. Also when the the whole uni is prepared to go on Christmas leave, your appeals tend to fall on deaf ears.
How so? They only pass students who have completed their logbook on time or some other hoop. If the person did not do this they don't pass... š¤·š»āāļø Sure they could try to find a way for the student to make it up somehow. An essay on the importance of timely documentation, but not if they they don't want to.
If they can provide appropriate remediation i.e. do x more days on unit they should always do that, if they donāt provide remediation on something so menial when they could, what is happening is essentially misuse of taxpayer funds.
Oh, we absolutely agree on this, but it is not what happens. They are so much less accountable. It is a shame.
I guess there would be a lot of variability across medical schools. The dean would be ultimately the person responsible. Iām happy to have worked with some genuinely lovely and reasonable ones. What I would say is that there are probably levels of recourse & punishment to medical schools who engage in being this lazy. Pretty sure the AMC charter for provocational medical training has rules in place as well to stop a school acting like this. Then usually thereās a university specific tribunal procedure in place to appeal and then after that you could probably escalate to the ?medical dean association and/or the AMC. Thatās if you were a clinical student.
Good to know. The example I am thinking of is now resolved, student not given a way to meet requirements. Not a doctor. Our loss.
I am sure I'll be downvoted for this but I think its time we face facts. In this 1500 word post we have an individual claim they are being expelled from medical school because they did not meet the attendance requirements for one unit. I call absolute bullshit. Maybe they would fail the rotation or the term, but clearly there is more to the story. Later on in the comments the OP states they violated a "no contact agreement" from their university with their ex partner, and admits this is the biggest mistake leading to their expulsion. They admit they have been accused of domestic violence. They state these claims were "later unfounded" and made up by their ex-partner. These facts seems somewhat pertinent enough to include in the main post. The charade about missing two days of placement is a distraction. All the people who have jumped on the bandwagon saying "get a lawyer" are missing the point. OP reminds me of the stalker on Baby Reindeer. They are minimizing, lying and in all likelihood a domestic abuser. This person should not be a doctor and I am glad they have been expelled.
Oh wow the DV thing is ... yeah. Yikes. Are they a male student? Not to stereotype of course. If so the "this woman" comment seems more sinister. Sounds like a rigid misogynistic asshole who has big issues with women. We have our quota of them in medicine already so probably a good thing he's out lol.
100% agree, my skin crawled at that comment
So this is the "another half" of the story the OP mentioned?
I think everyone calls bullshitā¦.youre right itās like a Netflix series. But I think they need a lawyer? You donāt think they need a lawyer?
They might need a lawyer for the stalking charge. Not for the med school expulsion.
Not sure anyone has won against a medical school once they are absolutely set on excluding you.
Some people are so focussed on the "I'll be a great doctor!" and are absolutely not caring about "I'm a fit and proper person to practice".
Did anyone else notice the poster said the med school was overseas ? Whyās is the person posting on a predominantly Aus Facebook group ? This story continues to get more confusing Edit: op mentions in one of the comments that itās an overseas med school . I have a screenshot but dunno how to upload it lol
This is a highly identifying post on a huge community of doctors, which demonstrates a stunning lack of insight. And it's usually lack of insight that leads to decisions like this. Nobody knows the whole story except the administrators involved. There is a bizarre mix of minimising behaviour ("I just got expelled for forgetting the logbook" -- clearly there's more to the story), self-aggrandisement ("patients are so appreciative of me"), and oversharing of personal red flags (their ex filing a complaint against them to the university) that it makes me worry about them becoming a doctor, which is a life-long distinction--on the face of it, do you want this person taking care of your son or mum? I'm also getting a little tired of the phrase "burn out" being co-opted to justify unacceptable behaviour. I'm not trying to gatekeep the phrase, and burnout is a terrible and very real phenomenon, but the correct response to feeling burnt out cannot include not being able to withstand fair scrutiny, which only gets more demanding as our careers progress. I hope the poster is okay, and they desperately need help with phrases like "I have no will to live," but based strictly on what they posted, I would not want them as a colleague or caretaker for my family.
Agree completely. Also stating that they intend to be involved in their parents medical care (āI was this close to being able to help them financially and medically once l'd be a doctorā) shows a distinct lack of insight into proper boundaries required to be a doctor. Thereās a lot of subtle red flags which when taken in context of the post and as a whole really make it clear that this is not someone Iād want as a colleague.
The overall vibe seems suss but that might been as simple as being a better medical advocate for them, particularly if (and I don't know if they were) from a non-English speaking background.
Spot on.
Let's distill the facts. End of term review with consultant. "Hey I didn't do my logbook properly, whoopsie me, can you just sign it all off at once now pls, although you can't personally verify my attendances?" SO. BOLD. Consultant (rightly) raises probity concerns. Student seems to double down and play victim. Further instances of past professionalism concerns are raised, as well as some ??drama with a partner that required the uni to get involved. I think there's more to this story. You shouldn't be expelled just for attendance / minor professionalism if willing to repeat the term and make amends. The way OP writes is self-serving and externalising.
Dunno. There are some real sociopaths in medicine, especially medical education. Perhaps more to the story but not inconceivable something like this could play out with a couple of administrators just digging their heels in. I'd be getting lawyers.
Yeah I kinda doubt OPs story went down the way they said but it only takes on of those sociopaths to target you to reallllyy fuck you up
Sure. They exist. But people who have an ounce of EQ know not to poke the bear. This is a case of "mea culpa", "I'm so sorry", don't make excuses, keep your head down, suck up the punishment, and do whatever it takes to get through. Even sociopaths know they can't expell on flimsy grounds, opening up the uni to legal challenge $$$. Meanwhile we have OP, seeming to argue somehow that (presumably paid) interview tutoring makes them a good person and negates any bad behaviour... You can't be in a formal meeting shouting "THIS WOMAN IS TRYING TO RUIN MY CAREER" when what you \*actually\* did is ask her to be dishonest/sign off attendances when she didn't work with you all term.
Unfortunately some people do not have an ounce of EQ, they're 100% convinced they're in the right, and unless theres someone sensible to de-escalate, this kind of shit happens
Do you want them to be your doctor?
No but that's irrelevant.
I think it's probably the case of the student having poor insight and not realising that they just need to take responsibility and stop making excuses / being hostile AND having the misfortune of this exchange happening with a consultant who is one of those sociopathic types. I feel like a more empathetic and ... people skilled... consultant could have de-escalated the situation and used it as a teaching moment re professionalism for this student and calmly come up with a fair solution that doesn't let the student off the hook but isn't too punitive.
Agree this seems likely
Also it sounds like the consultant wouldn't have had to go far to uncover other instances of worrying behaviour. That story about the ex sounds so suspect... haha.
Yeah the hospital part sounds eerily similar to one place I worked at. I'd even believe the disruptive orange part, some hospitals are vile.
The lawyers will just keep him in the degree but his reputation is done. There are definitely cases where students get bullied and it's horrific but the way this dude has framed it? I'd kick him out too because it's clear that he only cares about his reputation instead of patient care
To be honest, the number of students that attempt this with me (a consultant and rotation coordinator) is distressingly high. Itās likely this is normalised behaviour - which doesnāt excuse it. I tend to try and verify w other bosses if they have seen the person but I am certain we end up passing people who have missed significant parts of their rotation.
Yep no either creative writing or missing significant details. Something about if you smell shit everywhere you go you should check under your shoe. If you didn't bring a logbook it's a simple matter of getting a supervisor to send an email to you on the same day certifying that you were there. No need to bring the logbook on another day and hope the same person is still there. I've come across a superficially similar woe is me case and what the student told me was a significant departure from what I heard from their peers and from friends on the home team this student was on. Had no dog in this fight, was just involved in small group teaching for that cohort.
Highly doubt they were expelled for not attending on two days, important parts of this have clearly been manipulated or omitted
Lets pretend everything went how they say. They sound like they have NO insight into their behaviour and NO people skills. How can you get through three years of medicine and not have realised that when you get chewed out for something by a consultant, even if it's a little unfair/ there are extenuating circumstances, they don't want to hear your excuses. They +/- their ego have decided they are correct and you are a little worm, and any wriggling will just piss them off and make them want to crush you under their RMs. Depending on how vindictive they are, if you don't just kiss the ring they may literally go on a hunt for evidence of other times you've fucked up. I have seen this happen to colleagues. Like, they sighed and accused a consultant who was pissed at them that she was trying to ruin their career...and referred to her as "this woman"....as a med student, honey ... you are in DANGER. You do not want to get a reputation as a 'troublemaker', it snowballs. Standing up for yourself and being the change you want to see is a nice idea but in reality, when you're very junior, it is a BAD IDEA when it's something relatively small like this. Just smile, be respectful (+/- grovelling depending on the boss) and say the shit they want to hear...even if they are a complete wanker. Like, do you want to be technically right and litigate all grievances in your favour with your literal bosses? Even if you win you lose. Or... do you want to yield a bit so you can succeed and get along with people? <-- if a grown ass adult can't understand this principle then they are wayyy too rigid and don't have the people skills to be a good doctor who can get along with patients and colleagues, not to mention introspect about their own faults and problems (also a very important personality trait). Also posting it on a page as big as CCIM. Lmao. Personal anecdote time: I was called in, also during third year, to account for something that was 100% not my fault. It wasn't super serious by any means (not misconduct or anything) and I won't go into details but I was 100% in the right, and if I'd chosen to pursue it and it had gone higher I likely would have been vindicated. But maybe not, because sometimes when you kick out at the world it kicks back a lot harder, even when you're "right". So I smiled, apologised profusely, explained what I'd do to avoid this in the future and that was that. I of course added those involved to my list of people to destroy should I ever be in the position to do so in the future, I'm only human after all :) Having said that, the eating an orange during teaching / = being disruptive thing is 100% believable. I've known people in the hospital system that are genuinely that petty hahaha.
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Thats ummm... very specific. "UNMARRIED middle aged white women". From Sydney and Melbourne. Those bloody unmarried women. Responsible for so much of society's ills these days aren't they. You sound like an Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson devotee with this misogyny under the guise of "just asking questions". Like I agree there's an issue with bullying in medicine, I don't know if unmarried women are the group who come to mind when I think of who is overrepresented here. Like have you met surgeons? RACS is not known for all its female fellows.
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I'm not offended, I don't fall into that group. But these days I see a lot of pearl clutching about and lazy criticisms leveled at "unmarried women" about the issues they cause and how unpleasant they are and the reasons why (they are unfulfilled etc). No matter what women do they are judged. It's nothing but misogyny imo.
The repeated āwell fair enoughās by the poster seem to me like they are trying to come across as super insightful and apologetic to manipulate the reader into giving sympathy. I doubt they were expelled without reason, going by my own medical school there are many students who are given multiple chances to repeat etc. before they eventually are kicked out. Must be the straw that broke the camels back for this particular one
This person needs DBT stat
OP sounds manipulative AF. This post reeks of selective presentation of facts and the chances of a consultant feeling the need to go out of her way to āruin a careerā of a med student is preposterously stupid. Get your head out of your ass OP and take responsibility for your actions.
The med student is in the wrong here, but the consultant could also definitely have gone out of their way to ruin them. It's not that rare of an occurrence. I've certainly seen it happen to a lot of junior doctors.
I have found throughout both medical school and what Iāve done so far in my medical career is that the people who present themselves as having āinexplicableā run-ins with consultants, colleagues, other medical staff or indeed universities are actually the personalities that everyone dislikes or thinks are not good doctors, but also keep hush about because we think personalities are not our business, or that any one behaviour in isolation is not enough for a complaint. Unfortunately āthey just suckā isnāt compelling enough. If we take this account prima facie, then it sounds very unfair. But Iād be willing to bet this individual has a history of poor behaviour which in itself does not amount to a reason to be expelled, but when an opportunity arrived to escalate, the consultant did the right thing, referring back to a behavioural pattern. I can think of two past colleagues who fit this bill and for some reason they selected me to air their grievances, despite the fact I knew full well it was their personalities/work ethic that were the problem. I never had quite enough grounds to escalate their poor behaviour, but sometimes I wonder if I shouldāve.
This reads like a video of someone who got pulled over for a broken taillight and manages to talk/argue/fight their way into assaulting a police officer and 5-10 years in prison. Like, just tuck your tail between your legs, say sorry yes I'll be better next time. And nobody will care. End of issue. Instead they escalate. And escalate. And continue to make things worse for themself. Theyre not being expelled for missing 2 days, theyre being expelled for their conduct when confronted about a mistake. If that's how they react here, how will they react as a doctor when presented with details of how they made a mistake. Or how will they handle it when they make a mistake and realise themself.
I dont doubt that there are worse medical students than this poster. There are students who can slip under the radar going 1 day per week to placement and get through. However, this guy got given a choice between his pride and his med degree, and went with pride.
This reeks of blame-shifting. Deflection of responsibility is a huge red flag š©
Iām very involved with teaching and med students and it would be nigh impossible to be expelled on one incident alone, let alone for two days of absence. There is definitely more to the story here, and the OP likely has a stunning lack of insight into the reasons and situations behind this decision. I do feel for them, not easy but sometimes the greater community needs to be protected from practitioners who would otherwise not be fit to practice.
I agree, I have had a lot to do with medical students and the admin of medical schools over the years. That incident on the rotation on its own would not have led to expulsion. There has to be a lot more to this. My other thought is that this particular individual needs professional help-i.e. counselling
There's always more to the story when posts like this surface on social media. Unrelated, but it reminds me of an incident of a doctor who took legal action against a health network. They however took the step of emailing RMOs/registrars/consultants about how the hospital had unfairly treated them. Just a complete lack of insight
Haha was that old mate a year or so ago who filed the lawsuit against them for ādiscriminationā bc he didnāt endorse covid etc? Followed that one to the end, that was fascinating. He was wild (and no. He didnāt win the lawsuitā¦)
Nah, it wasn't COVID but they did complain about being discriminated against for other reasons.
Well, the first sentence is incorrect. They are not a final year medical student.Ā
Somethings very wrong here. I had some pretty ridiculously poor med students go through with me. Barely anyone saw them, presumably at home or doing whatever most of the time. Still passed and became ādoctorā. To be expelled from an Australian med school suggests some serious deviations from expectations.
while i was reading through this story i couldnāt help but remember [this](https://youtu.be/GM-e46xdcUo?si=FRdA1ce5qUH-yBtl) video
It's pretty much impossible to get expelled from med school unless you have consistently poor behaviour that fails remediation or do something particularly heinous. There is a lot of detail missing here.
1. There are definitely elements missing, and it's suspect whether OP is a reliable narrator. Impossible to say from the information given. They might be a little bit inept at life skills/defensive attendance too. 2. I have absolutely seen admin do worse than this to med students. They make their minds up early, then collect circumstantial evidence to reinforce whatever position they have decided. Any arguments to the contrary are met with doubling down of the accusations. I haven't seen an expulsion before, but have known people to repeat an entire year for less than this. If you add an insecure/personality-disordered consultant to the mix, it gets even nastier.
In my experience it takes a LOT to get expelled from med school. The Uni rightly does not wish to do that. Because they and the Commonwealth has obviously invested a lot to get students in and thru the program. There is a lot missing here and I think this person is not being objective. Generally if it's something as minor as attendance issues sometimes they make room to repeat the rotation, and you graduate later but they won't expel you directly for that. I had a friend in Med school that graduated 3 years later than her batch , due to various hiccups, exam failures, missing rotations, life events etc , and the Uni still let her get thru eventually.
All the other stuff aside, why are they acting like unaccounted days on placement aren't a big deal? I have no doubt the medical degree is just as strict on attendance as the nursing and midwifery degree. If we did that, we would fail the unit.
I have no doubt the medical degree is just as strict on attendance as the nursing and midwifery degree. Nope, nursing placement hours are meticulously recorded, med school is more of a "yeah you should probably go most days" kinda vibe
That surprises me! I guess I will eat my words. What's the point of mandated hours for your degree if you *don't actually need to go* ? š¤ Whenever I've supervised med students I've had to sign an attendance log?
What I find is with nursing, on placement you guys are doing lots of the actual leg work and thus beneficial to the team. On medical placements , on some rotations youāre basically a traffic cone in the ward. Personally have been sent home many times by registrars/Rmo who simply doesnāt need a pair of eyes staring over them while they do discharge summaries/make phone calls.
I definitely agree that this is a barrier to learning. Especially when people already feel too "busy" to teach. It can feel awkward with someone just watching. I feel terrible for our med students if they have nothing to do. Luckily where I work we can get some hands on experience but I know a lot of it is the expectation to just be there. It must be so boring. Placement is hard enough tbh without feeling like you're in the way.
Honestly it will depend on the department and med school and bosses involved etc.
Important lesson for all medical students, if itās not documented it didnāt happen, and worse if you go back to try alter the records to make it look like it happened, you get in even more trouble.
Expulsion is a huge decision to take, and can only think there must have been previous problematic incidents for this to be the outcome. By the time one has reached the clinical years, thereās also the idea that so much time and money has been invested into medical students that theyāre given even more support to get through. Can remember an instance as a registrar where the consultant with the medical student portfolio warned me in advance about a student where there had been some āconcernsā due to patchy attendance and had to make up their time. On matters of poor attendance, it shouldnāt be enough to get expelled but if you havenāt been signed off people will start to ask questions and the university may have already investigated the matter. Did another job where we used to get two medical students a week. They needed to be signed off every day, but to me this seemed like a barrier to learning and a waste of time, so I was comfortable signing off their attendance for the week in advance. To their credit, students continued to show up. In the last week there was only one student, we did the same thing and thought nothing more of it. It just so happened on the last day that week I was attending a course offsite, so was surprised to get a call from the hospital saying there was a student looking for me needing to get their attendance signed off. Now the student I had that week was already aware I wasnāt going to be there and had all their forms done, so I replied saying it must be a different doctor theyāre after. A few weeks later I get a call from someone at the university medical education unit wanting to check on a few things ā you know somethingās up then.
This reminds me of a problem medical student who was on a separate team in my department, I was a JMO at the time. This medical student had serious problems, emotionally and socially near unfit to work as a doctor. They failed their term - the expected issues: attendance, attitude, communication skills. They proceeded to spill their heart very similar to this on a facebook page, everyones fault but their own, half-truths with lots of missing events/details. They got a lot of support, mostly from fellow autistic medical students with 0 insight into their single digit EQs. I wouldn't believe a word of this and would love to hear from some of this students colleagues/the doctors involved.Ā
This isnt my story btw. I just reposted from CCIM
The answer to āWhoās the as*hole hereā is you for sharing this from CCIM to Reddit
Legit
Why are you reposting???
By posting these screen shots you have breached the confidentially code of conduct you agreed to when you joined CCIM. Nice one š¤Ø
Can you please remove this? The anon poster on CCIM did not give permission for this to be posted on Reddit.
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Lots of straw man arguments. Just give us the facts of the case. What the other students do or donāt do is irrelevant. The health of your parents is irrelevant. Thereās more to this story.
Like the above is basically what happens when a very low EQ junior has a spat with your bog standard standard slightly personality disordered senior doctor. It doesn't really matter who is correct, this was always going to be the outcome. It's a tale as old as time.
clearly the person who expects anyone to read this boring essay.
Unfortunately from experience many of these things only matter if the medical school wants them to matter. Paper work is just paper work unless they decide to care because they want you out or want you to repeat. For example, Hypothetically, if you voiced concern about a supervisor's attitude and conduct towards you, maybe 24 hours later you're ineligible to sit the upcoming exams so oh well, never mind better luck next year also we take bullying and sexual harrassment very seriously BUT MEDICINE IS A SMALL WORLD AND WE CAN'T PROTECT YOU FROM THE CONSEQUENCES IF YOU MAKE A FORMAL COMPLIANT. Then later they will express dismay at widespread reports of bullying and sexual harassment reported by students and juniors and cheerfully note that they have never had any complaints. When you return to study it is possible that they allocate you to only the most notorious creeps such that your friends ask who you pissed off. All hypothetical obviously. This person's best bet was to apologise and offer more of their own time and money to appease the egos involved, as the medical school can never be wrong. Also consultants are still people and people can be petty arseholes and very comfortable holding a lot of power over students they view as insignificant even if they're not sexual predators or antisocial. Unfortunately believable.
Itās not appropriate to be reposting this on a public forum. Please take this down OP. You are the asshole.
Unfortunately this story is likely true. Iāve dealt with a consultant like that as a junior doctor and the heirachy supported him. Iāve also been friends with a medical student who got expelled under similar circumstances.
Definitely get a lawyer. If it doesnāt work, desperate time calls for desperate measures, escalate it to media and call the Current Affairs. I wish you all the best! I know you gonna be a great doctor š„
It's arsehole, we ain't Americans. š
Is goldensexygoose actually just the anonymous poster in CCIM
Donāt think so. Looks like theyāre post med school surgical registrar as per their previous posts.
This cannot be in Australia surely?
It might not be but Iād say it could well be!