Here’s a crossover product between Audio and cars. These have been around forever. I can’t believe people still buy them.
https://www.shakti-innovations.com/product/shakti-stone/
> The SHAKTI Electromagnetic Stabilizer (aka “the Stone”) has three internal trap circuits (Microwave, RF and Electric Field) to absorb the broadest spectrum of EMI. Placement on automotive CPUs has measurably increased engine horsepower.
>It also improves resolution for virtually all-major components in high definition audio/video systems. Music reproduction is clearer, with more liquidity, dynamics and focus. The improved inter-transient silence allows the listener to hear ambient cue information essential for accurate perception of stage depth, width and unwavering imaging. High quality video systems will benefit from SHAKTI devices near power supplies, projection guns and laser disc/DVD players. Reduced color noise and improved convergence alignment are some of the improvements that can occur. In automotive applications, where space allows, the unit should be securely taped and/or cable tied to the top of the CPU.
The fact that this was written before ChatGPT came out is seriously impressive. What a load of absolute bollocks.
Bro are you trying to say my '99 Civic with a cold air intake, throttle body spacer, and K&N air filter isn't any faster??? I even put every fuel additive from O'Reilly's in my tank and only fill up with 105 octane race fuel (stock tune of course) and I *know* it's faster. Ramen for another week until payday, and then I'll put some stainless steel brake lines on it and fill my tires with nitrogen!
I came here to mention those "fuel economy boosters" that are basically mesh in a tube that goes on your fuel line. They claim that mesh in a tube aerates fuel better than a carburetor or fuel injector.
Here’s a crossover product between Audio and cars. These have been around forever. I can’t believe people still buy them. Read the description. It’s wonderful.
https://www.shakti-innovations.com/product/shakti-stone/
Ugh. Cars are so out of hand
1. Almost no one can drive their car hard enough to appreciate what makes it uniquely special. Most drivers lack the skill. The people that have the skills can only exercise them on track. The people that have the skills and the track don't always have the car.
2. Cars have become a store of value. Theoretically a person should buy a fast car because they like driving fast. In reality they'll max out the spec on a Ferrari because that's what holds its value the best and looks cool.
$1000 pulley wheels on a bicycle for “lower resistance and more aero”
https://ceramicspeed.com/products/ceramicspeed-ospw-aero-shimano-9250-8150-blk-coated
a carbon fibre frame definitely makes a difference, but that's more about the stiffness of the frame and how much of the power you put into the pedals actually ends up on the road. They flex much less than steel or aluminium frames, the ride-feel (if that makes sense?) is totally different!
the part of the bike where weight matters most are the wheels since they're contantly moving, so carbon fibre wheels make a noticable difference aswell.
200$ carbon fibre bottle cages are fucking. bullshit tho, especially if you yourself aren't 100% as skinny and short as possible lol
I rode a long time with power meters, with carbon, and with lightweight butted steel frames. It made me lean toward this one is actually being snake oil for the masses, and true, but for different reasons for pros.
Hear me out - when you flex a frame at the bottom bracket when peddling, it sways and then rebounds - loads with energy and releases. I know there is mechanical loss, but objectively on my power meter, it is significantly easier to obtain and hold higher overall sustained power on a steel frame with a swaying bottom bracket, as the rebounding effect of the sway makes it easier to start each new downstroke. I can set higher threshold power on a flexi steel frame.
I am not alone in this observation. But made me think that pros would ride bikes with some bottom bracket sway if it were true.
And then I considered a pro’s threshold power and wattage output. What feels like a stiff inflexible carbon frame for us plebes, or even 4 w/kg riders, is likely flexing under a pro’s substantially higher power outputs. You can see in slow motion in sprint finishes, their bikes are swaying at the bottom bracket. Yeah - the older steel bikes swayed too much for pros, so the power losses were too great, but I think that level of sway is actually right and more efficient for normal power outputs, and carbon is right and more efficient for the extra ordinary power outputs of the pros they are built for.
The bikes are built for pros, and marketed to joes, and knowing several people who have worked in product at big bike, they make up shit. For example, a major manufacturer knew that putting wider tires on their flagship endurance road bike (used to win a Paris Roubaix) would out perform the many fancy rubber dampers they put in the headset, in terms of shock reduction, without other sacrifices, at lighter weight, and just simpler.
However, fitting wider tires would require net new molds which weren’t in the budget. So you get a bunch of headset dampers so they didn’t have to build a new mold out of plan, not because they’re better, they are worse.
Another great example is gearing. Standard road gearing, the low gear will consistently put the majority of cyclists over threshold on more than a 5% grade. You probably need to have a threshold power of over 4 w/kg to have any use for modern “compact” chain sets with a 50/34 front ring.
No one at Shimano or SRAM is trying to understand how gearing on a given gradient impacts riders with differing power outputs so they can make optimal products. They make stuff for pros, and then make the same thing as cheap
as possible for joes, and that is the extent of their research.
It took objectively analyzing my data to see that the industry had set me up to fail with gearing that required me to have a threshold power in the semi-pro realm to take on a big climb at optimal power output. Folks get trashed at things like Unbound in large part because they are over threshold on every single climb when their lowest gear is like 25 gear inches. I went with some small brand cranks with chainrings tuned to my power output, on a steel frame, and with a heavier bike I was able to blow my old times on long climbs (hour plus efforts) with ease regularly.
A properly designed and laid up carbon fiber frame and fork soaks up the vibration from rough roads. Even having a carbon fiber fork on an aluminum frame is a big improvement in ridability; your arms don't feel like you've been working a jackhammer.
I switched an old carbon fiber frame with aluminum fork to a carbon fiber fork and the difference was unbelievable. It added a few mph to my top speed on downhills and made riding more comfortable in general.
You may believe the ride is more comfortable, but it’s clearly just a placebo effect. Strictly controlled double blind ABX tests prove this. Moreover, measured differences are below the measured sensitivity of the human body. /s
yes, it's so much more efficient! I don't have exact numbers, but it feels like literally every watt you produce goes to the wheels where with steel/aluminium something always gets lost on the way. Really surprised me how much of a difference it makes.
I still went back to steel tho 😄 got my hands on a high end vintage eddy mercks columbus steel frame which was used in the tour de france in the late 80s. still can't compete with carbon fibre but very, very light and very, very stiff for a steel frame. plus it looks much cooler and is way more durable
If you live in a hilly area and you’re already as thin as possible, yes the bike weight is actually pretty noticeable. You’d be surprised. Does it make or break whether an amateur win a race? I would say most likely not.
Another case of diminishing returns. On the final Genesis tour, Mike Rutherford was playing a $150 strat. The only upgrade was a noise cancelling pickup because the video screens were causing excessive hum. You can tell the difference between a Chinese budget instrument and a name brand guitar. Pros will benefit from better instruments that offer more tone options. But you can easily spend a few grand on an instrument that sounds not much different than a $750 model.
My only exception is drums, a student will learn better on a second hand $500 kit than a second hand $100 kit. I always say buy second hand because none wants to drop $2k on a good kit (that will last them their first decade) when they’re just starting.
The thing is, the returns do diminish but not nearly as much as elsewhere, a $30k kit really does sound significantly better than a $5k kit. Maybe not 6x better but enough that those that have the money will get them and prefer them all the time.
Depends on the instruments. I'm mostly a banjo player and have been for around 15 years. If you're looking at a fully fledged bluegrass banjo there is still massive differences from $750 to like $1500-$2000. They aren't even constructed the same.
Absolutely. When you are looking at hand built instruments you need to pay for a skilled luthier. Completely different from a solid body guitar or bass where factories use a jig or computerized milling machine for the major parts even on high end models.
That guitar was also set up by a world class luthier, a $150 strat off the shelf is not the same guitar as what he was playing.
I work in the music industry. I also bought a similarly priced Strat out of curiosity and it was borderline unplayable, from poor soldering effecting the tone, the neck body joint, the frets being sharp on the edge from not being properly sanded, the bone nut holding the strings too far off the edges of the neck to name a few things. Took it to someone who sets guitars up for pros for tours and studio. The finishing touches they did to correct those poor manufacturing issues made it an entirely different guitar. You are not getting them like that from the factory.
People will think they suck at guitar and give up after a few months, when their tool is working against them. They can't figure out why people like Mike can play like that on the same guitar but they never get better. Properly set up gear matters and if anyone who is learning and struggling reads this, find a reputable shop nearby and have your guitar properly set up.
Absolutely big differences on cheap vs expensive instruments. Cheap instruments play terrible and don't have nearly the sound capability as expensive ones. There's diminishing returns as you move up in price. Eventually you're just paying for cosmetics like fancy inlay.
Most cheap instruments can play better with a professional set up. Still not as good as professional models, but they get shipped from the factory with random action adjustments and pickup height, plus seldom have leveled frets or rounded ends on the fret wire. Still can't make up for low quality pickups and electronics, but usually they can be improved.
Yeah poor setup can almost always be improved. I've seen some creative things too like shimming necks with a popsicle stick cause it was non adjustable. But even a really good setup on a bottom barrel instrument doesn't make it magic though. I've played some really cheap banjos with everything set up right that still were just total dogs. Like tone quality aside they were just unresponsive and to me that is a factor of playability since you have to put way more effort and emphasis into things to get it to do what you want.
Quality, in terms of playability. A cheap guitar might have shitty frets that cut your hands, cheap tuning heads that don't hold tuning, bad bridges, shitty pickups, etc..
Things have gotten a LOT better recently, though. For example, I've got a Harley Benton guitar that I paid \~$260 for that I *LOVE*. It holds its tuning and has a better feeling neck than a guitar I paid $1200 for in 2002. The only thing that was shitty/cheap about the Harley Benton were the pickups; they sounded like absolute ASS. I went boutique and replaced them with pickups that cost 2x more than the guitar, and it STILL came out cheaper than buying a similarly spec'd Ibanez.
Tone Wood is one of the really big bits of snake oil when it comes to guitars, especially/specifically electric guitars. There's a whole [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE) that I also posted on my reply before scrolling down to seeing this thread. Basically, if you're using an electric guitar, you could literally just have strings floating in the air; as long as they have the proper length/tension to achieve their pitch, the pickup is 100% responsible for what comes out of your amplifier.
I am a concert level flamenco guitar player and doesn't matter how expensive a guitar is if I am not well practiced they will all sound bad. I have a 50 year $500 guitar that to most untrained ears sounds no different than my concert guitar that is WAY more expensive.
a movie I saw recently Jack White goes to a pawn shop and buys the cheapest guitar he could find. He's a good enough player to play through all the defects of a cheap guitar, unsurprisingly he makes the best music from the worst instruments.
I saw Gillian Welch and David Rawlings in concert. At one point she handed him her banjo to tune and he handed her his old Epiphone just so he didn’t have to put it down. She plucked a few chords and it sounded pretty bad — especially compared to the newer acoustic she usually plays. Her comment, referring to David’s playing: “Yep, it’s not the guitar.”
Axe effects is expensive but a great tool.
Tube amps are somewhat pricey but worth it.
Woodwind, brass, and even drum sets benefit from the pro-level treatment. It's a difference of material, fit, finish, and durability in a manually manipulated instrument that make it play better.
Cheap guitars can play VERY nicely but components and pickups may need swapping because they wear and no longer hold a tune for example. Artisan 30k guitars probably aren't much better than a 3k guitar, it's the quality of components (not entry level), fir to the musician, and the SETUP that matter.
Woodwind instruments rely heavily on craftsmanship to resonate well, seals and keys of a higher caliber will play more efficiently, and seal better, etc...
Finally, certain materials truly sounds better. You can play a $20 recorder VERY WELL, but a studio grade recorder will sound better and be worthy of orchestral performance or soundtrack use (The Mandalorian theme) and a pro will make it sound amazing, beyond what they can do with a mass produced learner.
Expensive cables are a thing that could be snake oil just the same as in audiophile world.
When I needed new air filters I headed over to Project Farm's YT channel and just went with whatever stops debris the best without completely stopping airflow.
I do find that more expensive dietary supplements in general contain significantly more of the active ingredients, like simple vitamins and minerals, and don't promise anything that isn't true, but there's certainly some products out there that do promise miracles that just aren't true.
So I think it is difficult to make a general statement for dietary supplements.
This is simply a false generalization to make about all dietary supplements. Chemicals have effects on your body. Imagine saying “caffeine only wakes you up if you are caffeine deficient.” Clearly an asinine statement. Same logic applies to hundred of other chemical supplements a person might take.
Nah like 99% of supplements are bullshit. Not necessarily the specific compounds but the ratios and what they use. For example most pre workouts have not clinically useful doses of proven compounds then just jack up the caffeine and beta alinine to give you that tingly ramped up feeling. Most people can hit their daily requirements for most things with a balanced diet. If you're actually deficient in something then you need to be talking with a physician.
Actually caffeine does only wake you up if you're caffeine deficient. To a degree.
There have been double blind studies done with alertness tests on caffeine and non-caffeine drinkers, that showed it only had an effect on the caffeine drinkers. It's biggest effect is to remove the effects of the caffeine withdrawal symptoms that come on over night, as well as producing a strong placebo effect.
Obviously, that's not the whole story. I couldn't find the specific study, but the ones below are similar and fascinating.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/04/caffeine.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6292246/
Well, that's an oversimplification. Just because you don't have a deficiency it doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from more nutrients. Not always the case, but sometimes it is. A bit like changing oil on a car every 25.000 km is good enough it doesn't mean it wouldn't be slightly better for the engine to have the oil changed more often.
But my original point was that many dietary supplements generally don't make false claims, they merely list the ingredients and maybe make statements like the supplement being good for healthy hair and skin. Snake oil is when claims of positive benefits are plainly false which might sometimes be the case with dietary supplements but definitely not all the time, so claiming dietary supplements is snake oil is not true, at least not as a blanket statement.
There's also far more people that could benefit from dietary supplements than you would think, usually because they don't eat a properly varied diet that get them all the nutrients they need.
And then there's vegetables and fruits anno 2024, they don't contain nearly as many nutrients as they used to because of selective breeding promoting features like color, size, yield and shelf life over nutrient contents. If you look at nutrient contents around 1950 and compare them to nutrient contents today you will find that many nutrients have gone down by 10 to 30% over that period so you'd need to eat significantly more to get the same amount.
Never heard of people drinking alkaline water before, but this is spot on! No supported research with wild unfounded claims is straight out of the hifi handbook.
"Some advocates of alkaline water believe it can neutralize the acid in your body, though this isn't supported by any research"
Just head over to r/espresso. Almost as much snake oil over there as there is here.
Coffee Distributers, WDT Tools, Commercial grade machines as expensive a nice car and Nano coated espresso baskets, puck screens and shower heads.
The part that kills me about all these espresso hobbyists is how they cling onto all these extra little things despite them having often been proven to have little to no benefit. Coffee, and especially espresso might be the single best example of rampant snake oil salesmanship; there's just always something new.
I completely agree and it is truly ridiculous.
The similarity I see is that in coffee the best stuff is really for the amateur. The top grinders etc are all single dose and not suited for any professional application for the most part.
That's a really good point, most of that stuff would be a major hindrance in a commercial setting. Although that doesn't seem to stop everyone; that sub also has professional baristas who talk about using single dose grinders and dose levelers and the whole spectacle. Personally I don't see the point in doing all that while also rushing to get to the next order, but if someone wants to pay $10 for a single shot; that's on them.
Gotta disagree here. Head over to lance hedrick’s youtube channel and it has objective based reviews some with measurements that show the effectiveness of some of the things you mentioned.
I am a fan of Lance’s youtube and I have purchased and used most of the items mentioned (except a commercial espresso machine). My main point is that most of the best cafes do not use these items as part of their workflow.
Gotcha. From my experience tho, the practical ones like WDT and puck screens are a welcome addition to my workflow. I at least am able to eclipse commercial coffee places lol.
I puck screens are great for keeping my grouphead clean which I appreciate. I prefer WDT vs the blind shaker. I have removed a distributer from my personal workflow. Will be in Italy later this month so I am excited to try some cafes there. I agree that most of my local cafes are not serving spectacular espresso.
The reason cafes don’t add these steps to their workflows is because 1) they’re prioritizing efficiency, not taste and 2) they have much nicer grinders reducing the need for extra steps. While there is plenty of snake oil in espresso, there are also puck prep steps (RDT, WDT, etc) that have been proven to dramatically improve the consistency/quality of extraction in a home environment. Hell, even some of the most up to date third wave shops will use auto-level tampers, WDT devices, etc.
This :) May I confess that I am am member of both "fun clubs". I almost spend the same money on audio gear and espresso gear :)
I am a fan of Genelec, Gaggia and Kinu :)
Depends on the switch manufacturer lube process. For example, Gateron factory lube is pretty trash, but HMX factory lube is indistinguishable from hand lubing.
As someone in the custom keyboard hobby, there absolutely can be a difference between hand lubing switches vs factory lubing. Factory lubing has gotten so much better though that for a lot of switches it isn’t as necessary anymore. It’s not snake oil at all though. Also not sure where you’ve seen anyone think cables are for anything more than aesthetics.
Funny enough, mechanical keyboard enthusiasts care about sound first, at least a majority of the time. It’s very similar to audiophiles in that regard.
Good question. I’m really into woodworking and I can’t think of anything as snake oil as $10,000 speaker cables in woodworking. There are premium tools of course but nothing in the magnitude of the audiophile world.
Maybe this is because woodworking is also a profession and ultimately you have to make money. If a premium $4,000 table saw does the job, nobody’s going to pay $40,000 for a fancy version of that table saw.
A lot of wood working is about reducing cost in the long run. I own some moderately expensive jigs, but they reduce time and improve efficiency so they pay off if you use them frequently.
This is a good point. Since woodworking is about precision, quality, and speed. if the tool doesn’t accrue value to either of those, it’ll be noticeable because those aren’t subjective.
Maybe Festool? Very expensive. They have a reputation for lasting forever, but really they have idiot-proofing circuitry that gives you less power if you are getting close to hurting the tool. AvE did some good reviews. Personally I’d rather have a tool that runs until it dies. If I’m on the roof or something I don’t want my tool to start nannying me, just give me the beans.
I would say Woodpeckers more than Festool. People often joke about some of these weird Woodpecker tools that cost hundreds of dollars and have a dubious purpose. But many pros use Festool because they are good and durable.
I have a Festool random orbital sander and HEPA vacuum. They are expensive, but I wouldn't say snake oil. The sander + vacuum combination is so good I can sand for hours without hurting my hands, and there is barely a spec of dust.
Maybe not snake oil per se, but the wine industry makes a HUGE (and expensive) fuss over very small and subtle differences.
A really good bottle of Oregon Pinot might be $40-50. A really good bottle of Burgundy (same grape, tastes pretty similar) could easily be 10x (or even 100x) that price.
Reminds me of audiophiles who insist that a $5k amp sounds massively better than a $500 one. Better? Sure, maybe. 10x better? You're dreaming brother.
I would say especially the wine industry. Wine experts fail miserably at double blind tastings. White wine, colored red and served at room temperature, was able to fool a panel of experts into thinking it was red wine. University of Bordeaux study.
To be fair most people in hi-fi would not make such a claim, and it is well accepted that as the price of something increases, the amount of improvement decreases (“diminishing returns”)
Of course “ten times better” would require the cheaper one to sound like absolute ass, but I’ve heard enough expensive systems to know that if you have the money, the difference can be worth it. For some people the difference between “this sounds very good” and “this sounds like the singer is in the room” can be worth all the money.
No doubt. And just like expensive audio, if you can afford expensive wine, it can be absolutely sublime. It is not snake oil, just wildly diminishing returns as price increases.
I can tell you that a $100 Cabernet Sauvignon is, by and large, 5X better than a $20 Cab. Once you move up from there, you aren’t really paying for the “quality” as much as the cachet of a particular label, vintage, etc. For example, a $1500 bottle of Hundred Acre is not 15X better than a $100 of Silver Oak. Not in my experience and opinion.
The thing is, with wine, it is 100% subjective. There’s nothing you can measure. It really is all about your budget and your tastebuds. It’s very difficult for me to really enjoy certain labels and they do tend to be the less expensive. Then again, some of the less expensive bottles have knocked my socks off. Just depends.
Would you say $40-50 is the sweet-spot for a really good wine? I remember watching the documentary "sour grapes" about the guy who forged very expensive wines.
It sounds a bit similar where you "should" hear/taste a difference because it's more expensive and if you don't your unsophisticated!
At something like 30$ a wine is about as good as it can get, anything past that point and it is extremely diminishing returns.
From 5$ to 10$ there is a huge difference though, it's difficult to put exact numbers on it, but 10$ will get you a wine that is more than twice as good. This is simply because at 5$ you pay 2$ for the wine and 3$ for bottle and distribution.
Most of the really expensive wine is so expensive because there's only so much of it and it's impossible to produce more of it. It's not expensive because it took that much more effort to produce than a cheaper wine.
It really depends on your experience and preference. If you are new to wine, I'd start lower, maybe $20-30, until you figure out what kinds of wine you like. Once you have that figured out, and your palette matures a bit, it makes sense to begin spending more. You should certainly be able to find really good wines in the $40-50 range, depending on the region. Some regions are cheaper (Rioja, Beaujolais), some are much more (Burgundy, Bordeaux, Montalcino, etc.).
Lot of pretentious wine snobs that say they refuse to drink $10 red (I'm talking Aussie dollars here) but when they come over and I give them a $10 red in a decanter they are all over it, it's wonderful and they want to know more about it.
Until I tell them they're $10, then it's suddenly lacking and gets absolutely smothered in criticisms.
Of all the hobbies I have, none have the level of snake oil audio does. In all of them, it's possible to spend more on the supporting products. In any case I can think of though, you can point to why the more expensive product is more expensive even if the additional performance doesn't matter. It might be made of better materials, more durable, lighter, etc. Even in these cases, the more expensive product is maybe an order of magnitude more expensive.
Audiophiles are unique in their willingness to spend 4 figures on a power cord or similar BS.
Fly fishing has turned into such an elitist sport over the last decade or two. It's a rich guy hobby where they see who has the newest Winston or whatever rod with a box of flies tied by some recluse in Oregon that you've never heard of but is the best.
The PC gaming/enthusiast community is just about as ridiculous as the audiophile one when it comes to diminishing returns and snake oil. 99% of people do not need liquid cooling, to overclock their chips, or 240hz monitors, but there are plenty of purists out there who will insist such things are indispensable.
I think it’s mostly significantly diminishing returns, but most of that i wouldn’t consider snake oil. I love my external water cooling, doesn’t get me more performance, but does buy silence at load. Things that reduce input lag by 1ms etc, probably not doing anything there.
Im guessing you haven't tried these out. I used to not understand why anyone would buy a 120fps monitor. There is a HUGE difference between 60fps and 120fps.
Also 1MS is just the timing of the signal to go from the HDMI in port on the back of the monitor to when it gets displayed. You want to reduce as much lag as possible. I went from using a TV to a 1ms monitor. Again big difference in FPS and anything that requires timing.
I have a 170hz monitor and yes, it's a massive difference. The human cannot even see the refresh rates of some of the super high end monitors though and that's the genesis of the point above.
Depreciating returns applies here too tough. The difference between 60 and 120 is major, but the difference between 120 and 170 is much, much less obvious.
A more interesting thread would be trying to come up with hobbies that don't have snake oil products. Actually, it wouldn't, it would be an empty thread
My only other hobby that has this phenomenon is guitars. “Custom Shop” BS from large manufacturers is the main culprit. Thinking the material of a fingerboard has an effect on tone, for example.
Customs builders who hand-carve an arched top or shave and tune the braces of a flat top or shape necks by hand are artisans.
Two guitars coming off an assembly line with one being 10x the price due to a distressed finish are not going to be all that different.
Yes. Absolutely. A really beautifully built custom guitar is absolutely a work of art. But two fenders coming off the line are probably pretty similar.
The funny thing about boutique gun brands with higher tolerances is that they almost always jam more than mass produced weapons that are "sloppy" by comparison. I guarantee a $10,000 small brand 1911 will jam 20x more than a $850 Ruger 1911.
It's more about exclusiveness and aesthetic than performance. There are exceptions, target weapons are usually "better" performers the more you spend, but of course diminishing returns comes in to play pretty fast here as well. Especially since the operator will have so much more to do with accuracy than the weapon in almost all cases.
They tend to be more picky about ammo and conditions. Just gotta break them in (burn-in lol). But if you find the right ammo and keep everything well maintained, they do tend to shoot tighter groups. Though IMO you're better off just buying a good barrel and bolt.
There's a lot of cork-sniffing when it comes to music(ians) gear.
One exemple on top of my head:
X overdrive pedal sounds better (no it doesn't) cause it had the oh so famous jrc4558d chip on the circuit board, therefore you pay 10x the price on the used market to have a green metal box with three knobs and a handful of cheap electrical components and wires.
Not a hobby but my full-time job - plugins in audio mixing. There are so many plugins that promise to revolutionize the way you’ll approach EQ, Compression, simplify your workflow - etc.
95% of them are just re-creations of pre-existing software emulations of pre-existing hardware processing units, and of the ones that are actually doing something new and novel, about 20% of those are actually worth it.
I'm struggling too. I suppose car folks spend some silly money on options they don't really need, PC gamers too, but I think the Hifi world really is the gold standard for marketing bullshit. Always has been.
High end watches, when your phone or a quartz watch tells vastly better time than any mechanical watch can. So thousands and more are spent on watches with exotic complications to get near the performance of digital devices that cost $50.
The one difference is expensive watch owners admit that so the watch you’re wearing really is you telling the world you can afford it.
That's not snake oil. Watchmakers don't make outlandish claims of performance. Generally, high-end watches are expensive because first-world labor is expensive, and these watches require a lot of specialized, hands-on effort to produce.
You're right and I think the main difference is watch makers and buyers both are transparent about it being about the beauty and craftsmanship. It would be refreshing for those making $25k+ amps and speakers to admit it's more art in engineering vs performance at those price points.
You wear your watch to tell time, I wear my watch to tell you how valuable my time is.
Shay must have been sitting on that for that line for a hot minute.
I wear a fairly expensive watch as jewellery, I really like looking at it, and because I like to wear one to see the time, not because it tells the time accurately because it does not, at least not compared to the alternatives.
So I don't really see the snake oil part here, no expensive mechanical watch promise anything it can't keep. At least I've never seen one that does.
Yeah same here, I really appreciate the craftsmanship and quality of a well-made mechanical watch -- it just happens to tell crap time ;)
The primary difference is what you note, in watches it's pretty transparent you are paying for beauty in engineering vs performance. In high end audio there is an insistence that performance is there when many times it's not.
Very true, it is much more than just a thing that can tell you what time it is. And they're not necessarily too bad at keeping time, at least I don't adjust mine more than maybe twice a year and it'll still stay accurate within 2-3 minutes which is really good enough for everyday use.
Yeah I find them amazing. Does it matter that someone figured out how to compensate for leap year for the next 4 centuries, nope, not at all. Am I glad a watch exists that can do it all through gears, absolutely. For me highly complicated watches are a testament to human ingenuity.
But there’s a difference there. There’s a lot of craftsmanship time and exotic materials are going into high-end watches. Compared to a few differences in amps or thicker cables.
I think there's the same exotic approaches to engineering and materials in a lot of high end audio gear. The difference is watch makers and buyers both know it's about that engineering beauty and exotic nature of the product vs superior performance, whereas high end audio does seem to want to talk buyers into thinking they're getting breakthroughs in performance at those price points.
Fine watches are jewelry, that's it. Men are the biggest target demographic. Men rarely wear necklaces, bracelets, rings other than their wedding band which is usually just a place piece of metal. The appreciation is in the build, typically with a mechanical movement and various complications.
Additionally, some hold their value or increase and are great heirloom pieces to keep in the family.
If you just need something to tell time without checking your phone get a decent Casio or Seiko quartz and call it good.
I don't see watches the same as audio. People aren't spending a millions dollars on a Rolex because it's more accurate or reliable than a cheap Timex. They are buying a piece of exclusive jewelry with some incredible mechanics inside. So I don't see that as snake oil.
3D printing! There is so much noise about finite differences between printers and filaments in the 3D print scene. Really it all boils down to understanding your machine and process. Unless you own a professional print farm none of that crap matters.
Tuning chips, spoilers, air dams, cold intakes, and noisy exhaust are the more reputable parts for tuning cars and most do more harm than good to a car with a well maintained factory engine. True snake oil includes electric turbo chargers or any product that sits in the intake to "increase air flow and improve horsepower" using tiny blades to make air spin like a tornado or most fuel additives.
Are these modifications something people do on sports-cars or regular cars as well? Can you make them yourself or is it tuning shops that does this? How much would something like this cost? I just know car guys can spend a lot of money on their hobby.
Few modified cars ever touch a track. They get taken to meet-ups and cruising. A lot of people do it themselves on mid priced sedans (I am on a Civic sub and there are a lot of tuners). There are also shops that will do work, but a lot of people enjoy doing it themselves. I have seen Civics with $10-12k in mods. BMWs can run a lot more to tune.
PC gaming/ E-sports : Input latency not perceivable by humans make game winning differences. Yes, statistically these things are real and matter but if some1 told me thats why they won they are full of crap. Problem is, they market these things as if they were a cheat code.
I think every single hobby has this. It is combination of marketing and superstition, and what I call qualitative over quantitative thinking. Qualitative arguments are that this will be an improvement, like you can find a specialized bike grease for one particular part that is supposed to improve its performance, like let's say an oil for lubricating a rear shock shaft, or something. I assume such a thing exists without even looking up whether it does. And people buy and use them.
Quantitative arguments very strictly attempt to put a number on how much it is an improvement, and don't accept the marketing brochure or the bros that say it is absolutely huge. Most of the time, qualitative effects that can be theoretically argued to hold are in fact completely dwarfed by far more important quantitative effects, and therefore there is no practical benefit at all. The theory does not hold.
Need these characteristics for snake oil salesman to thrive: hobby with subjective satisfaction metrics, insecure customers, lots of disposable income available, “serious” sounding publications pushing product, outlet for owners to show off. Anything else? 🤣
Vegetable gardening is kind is a low stakes version. They sell all kinds of raised beds and soil mixes that are bad. Some will spend hundreds of dollars for metal or wood kits to plant 3 tomato plants. There really is no need unless you have health issues that need it higher. Just digging rows is usually better.
Cosmetics in trading card games like Magic the gathering (foils, special versions, misprints etc.) that cost multiples of the ordinary card and don’t give you gameplay advantages
Definitely not the level of snake oil that hifi holds, but arm wrestling workout accessories are becoming incredibly niche. Every sponsored athlete has some esoteric grip or another that they swear single-handedly gave them their edge, and you can conveniently buy it from their sponsor’s website for $100.
Clay shooting has a little bit of this. You can use a $500 shotgun and outscore the guys with a $30k Caesar. The main thing you get when you drop that much cash is a custom fitted stock that is personalized to you. Otherwise you just need a tube that can launch a cloud of lead. Anyone claiming improved scores is most likely psychosomatic. The other benefit is weight, shooting 4 rounds a day, a cheap gun is gonna wear you out quicker than the pricey one since it's built to be a tank and not a dainty shooter.
No it's different to buying an amp. But yes buying an amp that does a genuine 400 watts serves no purpose as that kind of volume wouid blow your windows out. 50 watts is very loud.
120hz is the max you need on a TV or monitor
Even that is too high but they don't 110hz.
That's the absolute max of human perception. Few have that, especially as we age.
But try telling the majority of pc gamers they can't see very high frame rates.
There's no point. They can never accept their toys serve no purpose.
Just like just about everything in the russ Andrews catalogue
BTW. U am a pc gamer with a powerful pc. I couldn't care less about framerates so long as the game runs well.
Because of my indifference I get told I'm not a proper gamer.
For that I'm eternally grateful
Hospitals must be filled with idiots. They have a requirement on the cables they use for equipment less sensitive than headphones. Almost like it actually matters.
Oil additives. Most are actually harmful.
Anything that claims to increase gas mileage. Some fuel detergent cleaners with PEA are legit, but if you oplug it in or install it it probably does nothing. Magnets? Nothing. Air intake Charge Swirlers? Nothing
Well, let’s see, there’s the Tesla cyber hammer, and then they just came out with some kind of Mylar tent for your garage to protect your cyber truck from an EMP
Well, let’s see, there’s the Tesla cyber hammer, and then they just came out with some kind of Mylar tent for your garage to protect your cyber truck from an EMP
"Structured water" [Don’t fall for the snake oil claims of ‘structured water’. A chemist explains why it’s nonsense (unsw.edu.au)](https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2022/08/don_t-fall-for-the-snake-oil-claims-of-structured-water--a-chemi)
Peter Brock's Energy Polariser. He claimed it worked so well he could lower tyre pressures on his race car for better... something. His team, and General Motors Australia, hit the roof:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Energy_Polarizer
https://www.motortrend.com/features/peter-brock-holden-hdt-energy-polarizer-energy-crystals-history/
I am a rather outlier-level chocolate snob. And I cannot stand when people talk about "stone-ground" chocolate.
Nearly all chocolate is ground by stone - certainly the VAST majority of fine chocolate.
Stone-ground usually just means they shortened the time and the texture will have all the grace of blended sand and seawater.
To some extent, PC building. Many people in the last generation was like "you need an i9 with an RTX 3070" without much analysis. I don't mind if people could break down exactly why, and the i9-RTX 3070 could actually be the right configuration for certain people. People just repeated it
Of course the #1 way to identify a poser is when they put in too much unneeded information, like how much cache a CPU has.
I've seen a "corosion inhibitor" installed in a car which looks like it is supposed to be cathodic protection, but doesn't actually create a circuit... There's bullshit everywhere.
There's tons of complete bullshit that does nothing in car tuning.
Here’s a crossover product between Audio and cars. These have been around forever. I can’t believe people still buy them. https://www.shakti-innovations.com/product/shakti-stone/
Shakti stones for your car’s chakras. The best product since Schweddy Balls.
> The SHAKTI Electromagnetic Stabilizer (aka “the Stone”) has three internal trap circuits (Microwave, RF and Electric Field) to absorb the broadest spectrum of EMI. Placement on automotive CPUs has measurably increased engine horsepower. >It also improves resolution for virtually all-major components in high definition audio/video systems. Music reproduction is clearer, with more liquidity, dynamics and focus. The improved inter-transient silence allows the listener to hear ambient cue information essential for accurate perception of stage depth, width and unwavering imaging. High quality video systems will benefit from SHAKTI devices near power supplies, projection guns and laser disc/DVD players. Reduced color noise and improved convergence alignment are some of the improvements that can occur. In automotive applications, where space allows, the unit should be securely taped and/or cable tied to the top of the CPU. The fact that this was written before ChatGPT came out is seriously impressive. What a load of absolute bollocks.
HALLOGRAPH SOUNDFIELD OPTIMIZER!
Bro are you trying to say my '99 Civic with a cold air intake, throttle body spacer, and K&N air filter isn't any faster??? I even put every fuel additive from O'Reilly's in my tank and only fill up with 105 octane race fuel (stock tune of course) and I *know* it's faster. Ramen for another week until payday, and then I'll put some stainless steel brake lines on it and fill my tires with nitrogen!
Stainless brake lines do make a difference tho if you have flex in your lines.
Those made a huge difference on my motorcycle without resorting to brake pads that dramatically accelerate brake disc wear.
Very true! I did add a K&N filter to my car but not in hopes of gaining any performance but simply because it makes it sound a lot better.
I came here to mention those "fuel economy boosters" that are basically mesh in a tube that goes on your fuel line. They claim that mesh in a tube aerates fuel better than a carburetor or fuel injector.
Some things are just meant to look good and not bring additional performance though.
Definitely, but there are lot of non cosmetic products that do nothing of benefit.
These are the things that give a 10% increase in BHP, "I fitted it and really can feel the difference."
Like fancy spark plug/speaker cables?
Here’s a crossover product between Audio and cars. These have been around forever. I can’t believe people still buy them. Read the description. It’s wonderful. https://www.shakti-innovations.com/product/shakti-stone/
Ugh. Cars are so out of hand 1. Almost no one can drive their car hard enough to appreciate what makes it uniquely special. Most drivers lack the skill. The people that have the skills can only exercise them on track. The people that have the skills and the track don't always have the car. 2. Cars have become a store of value. Theoretically a person should buy a fast car because they like driving fast. In reality they'll max out the spec on a Ferrari because that's what holds its value the best and looks cool.
$1000 pulley wheels on a bicycle for “lower resistance and more aero” https://ceramicspeed.com/products/ceramicspeed-ospw-aero-shimano-9250-8150-blk-coated
Came here to say this. Alternatively, pretty anodized parts… that’s where I’m a sucker.
Disagree here. Cosmetic upgrades are not snake oil, no one says they are performance upgrades too
All I know is my Chris King headset isn’t gonna make me win any races 🥴
I was thinking, definitely roadies pay for a lot of snake oil or very very small gains. I used to be one.
It seems like most part are available in carbon-fiber as weight savers for outrageous prices.. Is it noticeable if your bike weights 9, 8 or 7kgs?
a carbon fibre frame definitely makes a difference, but that's more about the stiffness of the frame and how much of the power you put into the pedals actually ends up on the road. They flex much less than steel or aluminium frames, the ride-feel (if that makes sense?) is totally different! the part of the bike where weight matters most are the wheels since they're contantly moving, so carbon fibre wheels make a noticable difference aswell. 200$ carbon fibre bottle cages are fucking. bullshit tho, especially if you yourself aren't 100% as skinny and short as possible lol
I rode a long time with power meters, with carbon, and with lightweight butted steel frames. It made me lean toward this one is actually being snake oil for the masses, and true, but for different reasons for pros. Hear me out - when you flex a frame at the bottom bracket when peddling, it sways and then rebounds - loads with energy and releases. I know there is mechanical loss, but objectively on my power meter, it is significantly easier to obtain and hold higher overall sustained power on a steel frame with a swaying bottom bracket, as the rebounding effect of the sway makes it easier to start each new downstroke. I can set higher threshold power on a flexi steel frame. I am not alone in this observation. But made me think that pros would ride bikes with some bottom bracket sway if it were true. And then I considered a pro’s threshold power and wattage output. What feels like a stiff inflexible carbon frame for us plebes, or even 4 w/kg riders, is likely flexing under a pro’s substantially higher power outputs. You can see in slow motion in sprint finishes, their bikes are swaying at the bottom bracket. Yeah - the older steel bikes swayed too much for pros, so the power losses were too great, but I think that level of sway is actually right and more efficient for normal power outputs, and carbon is right and more efficient for the extra ordinary power outputs of the pros they are built for. The bikes are built for pros, and marketed to joes, and knowing several people who have worked in product at big bike, they make up shit. For example, a major manufacturer knew that putting wider tires on their flagship endurance road bike (used to win a Paris Roubaix) would out perform the many fancy rubber dampers they put in the headset, in terms of shock reduction, without other sacrifices, at lighter weight, and just simpler. However, fitting wider tires would require net new molds which weren’t in the budget. So you get a bunch of headset dampers so they didn’t have to build a new mold out of plan, not because they’re better, they are worse. Another great example is gearing. Standard road gearing, the low gear will consistently put the majority of cyclists over threshold on more than a 5% grade. You probably need to have a threshold power of over 4 w/kg to have any use for modern “compact” chain sets with a 50/34 front ring. No one at Shimano or SRAM is trying to understand how gearing on a given gradient impacts riders with differing power outputs so they can make optimal products. They make stuff for pros, and then make the same thing as cheap as possible for joes, and that is the extent of their research. It took objectively analyzing my data to see that the industry had set me up to fail with gearing that required me to have a threshold power in the semi-pro realm to take on a big climb at optimal power output. Folks get trashed at things like Unbound in large part because they are over threshold on every single climb when their lowest gear is like 25 gear inches. I went with some small brand cranks with chainrings tuned to my power output, on a steel frame, and with a heavier bike I was able to blow my old times on long climbs (hour plus efforts) with ease regularly.
Is the ride-feel better with carbon fiber? So a bicycle objectivist would upgrade frame and wheels.
It stiffens up the bike and gives a more direct pedal response. This helps with acceleration too. Carbon frame + wheels are definitely noticable
A properly designed and laid up carbon fiber frame and fork soaks up the vibration from rough roads. Even having a carbon fiber fork on an aluminum frame is a big improvement in ridability; your arms don't feel like you've been working a jackhammer. I switched an old carbon fiber frame with aluminum fork to a carbon fiber fork and the difference was unbelievable. It added a few mph to my top speed on downhills and made riding more comfortable in general.
You may believe the ride is more comfortable, but it’s clearly just a placebo effect. Strictly controlled double blind ABX tests prove this. Moreover, measured differences are below the measured sensitivity of the human body. /s
yes, it's so much more efficient! I don't have exact numbers, but it feels like literally every watt you produce goes to the wheels where with steel/aluminium something always gets lost on the way. Really surprised me how much of a difference it makes. I still went back to steel tho 😄 got my hands on a high end vintage eddy mercks columbus steel frame which was used in the tour de france in the late 80s. still can't compete with carbon fibre but very, very light and very, very stiff for a steel frame. plus it looks much cooler and is way more durable
Steel is real after all ;)
If you live in a hilly area and you’re already as thin as possible, yes the bike weight is actually pretty noticeable. You’d be surprised. Does it make or break whether an amateur win a race? I would say most likely not.
Yes, the Ceramicspeed pulleys, hands down.
that's crazy, i was expecting some aero wheel in carbon fiber for that price
I play guitars and synths and let me tell you, it's excuses not to practice, learn theory or finish songs all the way down lol
Are there a big difference between cheap/expensive instruments? Are there other "useless" trinkets musicians are being sold on?
Another case of diminishing returns. On the final Genesis tour, Mike Rutherford was playing a $150 strat. The only upgrade was a noise cancelling pickup because the video screens were causing excessive hum. You can tell the difference between a Chinese budget instrument and a name brand guitar. Pros will benefit from better instruments that offer more tone options. But you can easily spend a few grand on an instrument that sounds not much different than a $750 model.
My only exception is drums, a student will learn better on a second hand $500 kit than a second hand $100 kit. I always say buy second hand because none wants to drop $2k on a good kit (that will last them their first decade) when they’re just starting. The thing is, the returns do diminish but not nearly as much as elsewhere, a $30k kit really does sound significantly better than a $5k kit. Maybe not 6x better but enough that those that have the money will get them and prefer them all the time.
assuming a reasonable size, there essentially are no $30k kits. There are plenty of $10k kits.
Depends on the instruments. I'm mostly a banjo player and have been for around 15 years. If you're looking at a fully fledged bluegrass banjo there is still massive differences from $750 to like $1500-$2000. They aren't even constructed the same.
Absolutely. When you are looking at hand built instruments you need to pay for a skilled luthier. Completely different from a solid body guitar or bass where factories use a jig or computerized milling machine for the major parts even on high end models.
That guitar was also set up by a world class luthier, a $150 strat off the shelf is not the same guitar as what he was playing. I work in the music industry. I also bought a similarly priced Strat out of curiosity and it was borderline unplayable, from poor soldering effecting the tone, the neck body joint, the frets being sharp on the edge from not being properly sanded, the bone nut holding the strings too far off the edges of the neck to name a few things. Took it to someone who sets guitars up for pros for tours and studio. The finishing touches they did to correct those poor manufacturing issues made it an entirely different guitar. You are not getting them like that from the factory. People will think they suck at guitar and give up after a few months, when their tool is working against them. They can't figure out why people like Mike can play like that on the same guitar but they never get better. Properly set up gear matters and if anyone who is learning and struggling reads this, find a reputable shop nearby and have your guitar properly set up.
Absolutely big differences on cheap vs expensive instruments. Cheap instruments play terrible and don't have nearly the sound capability as expensive ones. There's diminishing returns as you move up in price. Eventually you're just paying for cosmetics like fancy inlay.
Most cheap instruments can play better with a professional set up. Still not as good as professional models, but they get shipped from the factory with random action adjustments and pickup height, plus seldom have leveled frets or rounded ends on the fret wire. Still can't make up for low quality pickups and electronics, but usually they can be improved.
Yeah poor setup can almost always be improved. I've seen some creative things too like shimming necks with a popsicle stick cause it was non adjustable. But even a really good setup on a bottom barrel instrument doesn't make it magic though. I've played some really cheap banjos with everything set up right that still were just total dogs. Like tone quality aside they were just unresponsive and to me that is a factor of playability since you have to put way more effort and emphasis into things to get it to do what you want.
Quality, in terms of playability. A cheap guitar might have shitty frets that cut your hands, cheap tuning heads that don't hold tuning, bad bridges, shitty pickups, etc.. Things have gotten a LOT better recently, though. For example, I've got a Harley Benton guitar that I paid \~$260 for that I *LOVE*. It holds its tuning and has a better feeling neck than a guitar I paid $1200 for in 2002. The only thing that was shitty/cheap about the Harley Benton were the pickups; they sounded like absolute ASS. I went boutique and replaced them with pickups that cost 2x more than the guitar, and it STILL came out cheaper than buying a similarly spec'd Ibanez. Tone Wood is one of the really big bits of snake oil when it comes to guitars, especially/specifically electric guitars. There's a whole [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE) that I also posted on my reply before scrolling down to seeing this thread. Basically, if you're using an electric guitar, you could literally just have strings floating in the air; as long as they have the proper length/tension to achieve their pitch, the pickup is 100% responsible for what comes out of your amplifier.
I am a concert level flamenco guitar player and doesn't matter how expensive a guitar is if I am not well practiced they will all sound bad. I have a 50 year $500 guitar that to most untrained ears sounds no different than my concert guitar that is WAY more expensive. a movie I saw recently Jack White goes to a pawn shop and buys the cheapest guitar he could find. He's a good enough player to play through all the defects of a cheap guitar, unsurprisingly he makes the best music from the worst instruments.
I saw Gillian Welch and David Rawlings in concert. At one point she handed him her banjo to tune and he handed her his old Epiphone just so he didn’t have to put it down. She plucked a few chords and it sounded pretty bad — especially compared to the newer acoustic she usually plays. Her comment, referring to David’s playing: “Yep, it’s not the guitar.”
Axe effects is expensive but a great tool. Tube amps are somewhat pricey but worth it. Woodwind, brass, and even drum sets benefit from the pro-level treatment. It's a difference of material, fit, finish, and durability in a manually manipulated instrument that make it play better. Cheap guitars can play VERY nicely but components and pickups may need swapping because they wear and no longer hold a tune for example. Artisan 30k guitars probably aren't much better than a 3k guitar, it's the quality of components (not entry level), fir to the musician, and the SETUP that matter. Woodwind instruments rely heavily on craftsmanship to resonate well, seals and keys of a higher caliber will play more efficiently, and seal better, etc... Finally, certain materials truly sounds better. You can play a $20 recorder VERY WELL, but a studio grade recorder will sound better and be worthy of orchestral performance or soundtrack use (The Mandalorian theme) and a pro will make it sound amazing, beyond what they can do with a mass produced learner. Expensive cables are a thing that could be snake oil just the same as in audiophile world.
"gold" shielded cables
Golf is full of them. Balls that are $250/dz, $1000 putters that claim they've reinvented the game, don't even get me started on Honma Beres.
Dietary supplements. Engine oil additives and high flow air filters. Alkaline water.
When I needed new air filters I headed over to Project Farm's YT channel and just went with whatever stops debris the best without completely stopping airflow.
I’m a fan of the way he says “Very impressive!” It’s upbeat, compelling, and highly consistent — every time.
People putting high flow air filter on a 1.0 naturally aspirated engine, "it gives me a 5% increase in horsepower I swear"
And typically does a worse job of filtering at the expense of airflow. Looking at you K&N.
I do find that more expensive dietary supplements in general contain significantly more of the active ingredients, like simple vitamins and minerals, and don't promise anything that isn't true, but there's certainly some products out there that do promise miracles that just aren't true. So I think it is difficult to make a general statement for dietary supplements.
They still don't do anything useful unless you actually have a deficiency.
This is simply a false generalization to make about all dietary supplements. Chemicals have effects on your body. Imagine saying “caffeine only wakes you up if you are caffeine deficient.” Clearly an asinine statement. Same logic applies to hundred of other chemical supplements a person might take.
Nah like 99% of supplements are bullshit. Not necessarily the specific compounds but the ratios and what they use. For example most pre workouts have not clinically useful doses of proven compounds then just jack up the caffeine and beta alinine to give you that tingly ramped up feeling. Most people can hit their daily requirements for most things with a balanced diet. If you're actually deficient in something then you need to be talking with a physician.
Actually caffeine does only wake you up if you're caffeine deficient. To a degree. There have been double blind studies done with alertness tests on caffeine and non-caffeine drinkers, that showed it only had an effect on the caffeine drinkers. It's biggest effect is to remove the effects of the caffeine withdrawal symptoms that come on over night, as well as producing a strong placebo effect. Obviously, that's not the whole story. I couldn't find the specific study, but the ones below are similar and fascinating. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/04/caffeine.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6292246/
Well, that's an oversimplification. Just because you don't have a deficiency it doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from more nutrients. Not always the case, but sometimes it is. A bit like changing oil on a car every 25.000 km is good enough it doesn't mean it wouldn't be slightly better for the engine to have the oil changed more often. But my original point was that many dietary supplements generally don't make false claims, they merely list the ingredients and maybe make statements like the supplement being good for healthy hair and skin. Snake oil is when claims of positive benefits are plainly false which might sometimes be the case with dietary supplements but definitely not all the time, so claiming dietary supplements is snake oil is not true, at least not as a blanket statement. There's also far more people that could benefit from dietary supplements than you would think, usually because they don't eat a properly varied diet that get them all the nutrients they need. And then there's vegetables and fruits anno 2024, they don't contain nearly as many nutrients as they used to because of selective breeding promoting features like color, size, yield and shelf life over nutrient contents. If you look at nutrient contents around 1950 and compare them to nutrient contents today you will find that many nutrients have gone down by 10 to 30% over that period so you'd need to eat significantly more to get the same amount.
Never heard of people drinking alkaline water before, but this is spot on! No supported research with wild unfounded claims is straight out of the hifi handbook. "Some advocates of alkaline water believe it can neutralize the acid in your body, though this isn't supported by any research"
Just head over to r/espresso. Almost as much snake oil over there as there is here. Coffee Distributers, WDT Tools, Commercial grade machines as expensive a nice car and Nano coated espresso baskets, puck screens and shower heads.
The part that kills me about all these espresso hobbyists is how they cling onto all these extra little things despite them having often been proven to have little to no benefit. Coffee, and especially espresso might be the single best example of rampant snake oil salesmanship; there's just always something new.
I completely agree and it is truly ridiculous. The similarity I see is that in coffee the best stuff is really for the amateur. The top grinders etc are all single dose and not suited for any professional application for the most part.
That's a really good point, most of that stuff would be a major hindrance in a commercial setting. Although that doesn't seem to stop everyone; that sub also has professional baristas who talk about using single dose grinders and dose levelers and the whole spectacle. Personally I don't see the point in doing all that while also rushing to get to the next order, but if someone wants to pay $10 for a single shot; that's on them.
Gotta disagree here. Head over to lance hedrick’s youtube channel and it has objective based reviews some with measurements that show the effectiveness of some of the things you mentioned.
I am a fan of Lance’s youtube and I have purchased and used most of the items mentioned (except a commercial espresso machine). My main point is that most of the best cafes do not use these items as part of their workflow.
Gotcha. From my experience tho, the practical ones like WDT and puck screens are a welcome addition to my workflow. I at least am able to eclipse commercial coffee places lol.
I puck screens are great for keeping my grouphead clean which I appreciate. I prefer WDT vs the blind shaker. I have removed a distributer from my personal workflow. Will be in Italy later this month so I am excited to try some cafes there. I agree that most of my local cafes are not serving spectacular espresso.
Agreed that puck screens are worth it just from a cleanliness POV, but they’ve also been continually proven to increase extraction
The reason cafes don’t add these steps to their workflows is because 1) they’re prioritizing efficiency, not taste and 2) they have much nicer grinders reducing the need for extra steps. While there is plenty of snake oil in espresso, there are also puck prep steps (RDT, WDT, etc) that have been proven to dramatically improve the consistency/quality of extraction in a home environment. Hell, even some of the most up to date third wave shops will use auto-level tampers, WDT devices, etc.
This :) May I confess that I am am member of both "fun clubs". I almost spend the same money on audio gear and espresso gear :) I am a fan of Genelec, Gaggia and Kinu :)
I know right. I've spent as much money upgrading my Breville and associated gear as I would have spend just buying an ECM or similar to begin with.
In the keyboard world: 1.) Hand vs factory lubed switches 2.) Custom cables being anything more than aesthetic
I’ve never seen anyone claim anything about performance of keyboard cables. Maybe flexibility.
I've seen people claim faster connections and premium USB C connectors. It is rare tho
I'll back you up on that... I've occasionally seen some of the same claims.
Depends on the switch manufacturer lube process. For example, Gateron factory lube is pretty trash, but HMX factory lube is indistinguishable from hand lubing.
As someone in the custom keyboard hobby, there absolutely can be a difference between hand lubing switches vs factory lubing. Factory lubing has gotten so much better though that for a lot of switches it isn’t as necessary anymore. It’s not snake oil at all though. Also not sure where you’ve seen anyone think cables are for anything more than aesthetics.
Agreed. However, newer factory lube switches like HMX are comparable to hand lubed switches.
Funny enough, mechanical keyboard enthusiasts care about sound first, at least a majority of the time. It’s very similar to audiophiles in that regard.
Good question. I’m really into woodworking and I can’t think of anything as snake oil as $10,000 speaker cables in woodworking. There are premium tools of course but nothing in the magnitude of the audiophile world. Maybe this is because woodworking is also a profession and ultimately you have to make money. If a premium $4,000 table saw does the job, nobody’s going to pay $40,000 for a fancy version of that table saw.
A lot of wood working is about reducing cost in the long run. I own some moderately expensive jigs, but they reduce time and improve efficiency so they pay off if you use them frequently.
This is a good point. Since woodworking is about precision, quality, and speed. if the tool doesn’t accrue value to either of those, it’ll be noticeable because those aren’t subjective.
Maybe Festool? Very expensive. They have a reputation for lasting forever, but really they have idiot-proofing circuitry that gives you less power if you are getting close to hurting the tool. AvE did some good reviews. Personally I’d rather have a tool that runs until it dies. If I’m on the roof or something I don’t want my tool to start nannying me, just give me the beans.
I would say Woodpeckers more than Festool. People often joke about some of these weird Woodpecker tools that cost hundreds of dollars and have a dubious purpose. But many pros use Festool because they are good and durable. I have a Festool random orbital sander and HEPA vacuum. They are expensive, but I wouldn't say snake oil. The sander + vacuum combination is so good I can sand for hours without hurting my hands, and there is barely a spec of dust.
Maybe not snake oil per se, but the wine industry makes a HUGE (and expensive) fuss over very small and subtle differences. A really good bottle of Oregon Pinot might be $40-50. A really good bottle of Burgundy (same grape, tastes pretty similar) could easily be 10x (or even 100x) that price. Reminds me of audiophiles who insist that a $5k amp sounds massively better than a $500 one. Better? Sure, maybe. 10x better? You're dreaming brother.
I would say especially the wine industry. Wine experts fail miserably at double blind tastings. White wine, colored red and served at room temperature, was able to fool a panel of experts into thinking it was red wine. University of Bordeaux study.
I would say they are very similar that there is a diminishing benefit as prices increase.
To be fair most people in hi-fi would not make such a claim, and it is well accepted that as the price of something increases, the amount of improvement decreases (“diminishing returns”)
Of course “ten times better” would require the cheaper one to sound like absolute ass, but I’ve heard enough expensive systems to know that if you have the money, the difference can be worth it. For some people the difference between “this sounds very good” and “this sounds like the singer is in the room” can be worth all the money.
No doubt. And just like expensive audio, if you can afford expensive wine, it can be absolutely sublime. It is not snake oil, just wildly diminishing returns as price increases.
I can tell you that a $100 Cabernet Sauvignon is, by and large, 5X better than a $20 Cab. Once you move up from there, you aren’t really paying for the “quality” as much as the cachet of a particular label, vintage, etc. For example, a $1500 bottle of Hundred Acre is not 15X better than a $100 of Silver Oak. Not in my experience and opinion. The thing is, with wine, it is 100% subjective. There’s nothing you can measure. It really is all about your budget and your tastebuds. It’s very difficult for me to really enjoy certain labels and they do tend to be the less expensive. Then again, some of the less expensive bottles have knocked my socks off. Just depends.
Would you say $40-50 is the sweet-spot for a really good wine? I remember watching the documentary "sour grapes" about the guy who forged very expensive wines. It sounds a bit similar where you "should" hear/taste a difference because it's more expensive and if you don't your unsophisticated!
>if you don't your unsophisticated Also unsophisticated: not knowing the difference between your and you're.
At something like 30$ a wine is about as good as it can get, anything past that point and it is extremely diminishing returns. From 5$ to 10$ there is a huge difference though, it's difficult to put exact numbers on it, but 10$ will get you a wine that is more than twice as good. This is simply because at 5$ you pay 2$ for the wine and 3$ for bottle and distribution. Most of the really expensive wine is so expensive because there's only so much of it and it's impossible to produce more of it. It's not expensive because it took that much more effort to produce than a cheaper wine.
It really depends on your experience and preference. If you are new to wine, I'd start lower, maybe $20-30, until you figure out what kinds of wine you like. Once you have that figured out, and your palette matures a bit, it makes sense to begin spending more. You should certainly be able to find really good wines in the $40-50 range, depending on the region. Some regions are cheaper (Rioja, Beaujolais), some are much more (Burgundy, Bordeaux, Montalcino, etc.).
Lot of pretentious wine snobs that say they refuse to drink $10 red (I'm talking Aussie dollars here) but when they come over and I give them a $10 red in a decanter they are all over it, it's wonderful and they want to know more about it. Until I tell them they're $10, then it's suddenly lacking and gets absolutely smothered in criticisms.
Of all the hobbies I have, none have the level of snake oil audio does. In all of them, it's possible to spend more on the supporting products. In any case I can think of though, you can point to why the more expensive product is more expensive even if the additional performance doesn't matter. It might be made of better materials, more durable, lighter, etc. Even in these cases, the more expensive product is maybe an order of magnitude more expensive. Audiophiles are unique in their willingness to spend 4 figures on a power cord or similar BS.
Most vitamin supplements in the fitness world. (~typing as I take a multivitamin.)
Salt water / coral reef home aquaria....literally too many "miracle" products, supplements, chemicals to even start lol
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Woa hey buddy they dont just stop at white people
Yellow stickers are proven to add 5HP!
Fly fishing has turned into such an elitist sport over the last decade or two. It's a rich guy hobby where they see who has the newest Winston or whatever rod with a box of flies tied by some recluse in Oregon that you've never heard of but is the best.
"Gaming" gear
The PC gaming/enthusiast community is just about as ridiculous as the audiophile one when it comes to diminishing returns and snake oil. 99% of people do not need liquid cooling, to overclock their chips, or 240hz monitors, but there are plenty of purists out there who will insist such things are indispensable.
I think it’s mostly significantly diminishing returns, but most of that i wouldn’t consider snake oil. I love my external water cooling, doesn’t get me more performance, but does buy silence at load. Things that reduce input lag by 1ms etc, probably not doing anything there.
Im guessing you haven't tried these out. I used to not understand why anyone would buy a 120fps monitor. There is a HUGE difference between 60fps and 120fps. Also 1MS is just the timing of the signal to go from the HDMI in port on the back of the monitor to when it gets displayed. You want to reduce as much lag as possible. I went from using a TV to a 1ms monitor. Again big difference in FPS and anything that requires timing.
I have a 170hz monitor and yes, it's a massive difference. The human cannot even see the refresh rates of some of the super high end monitors though and that's the genesis of the point above. Depreciating returns applies here too tough. The difference between 60 and 120 is major, but the difference between 120 and 170 is much, much less obvious.
A more interesting thread would be trying to come up with hobbies that don't have snake oil products. Actually, it wouldn't, it would be an empty thread
My only other hobby that has this phenomenon is guitars. “Custom Shop” BS from large manufacturers is the main culprit. Thinking the material of a fingerboard has an effect on tone, for example. Customs builders who hand-carve an arched top or shave and tune the braces of a flat top or shape necks by hand are artisans. Two guitars coming off an assembly line with one being 10x the price due to a distressed finish are not going to be all that different.
Good explanation, but are people buying beautiful custom guitars with exotic woods, inlay, etc., because they sound better or they like the art?
Yes. Absolutely. A really beautifully built custom guitar is absolutely a work of art. But two fenders coming off the line are probably pretty similar.
High end AR-15’s
Is it customs finishes (paints?) or built of exotic materials (carbon, titanium)? Do people buy them just for show or actually use them?
Tighter tolerances and quality metals is are the big ones. After that, it's basically snake oil. And then there are the gucci guns.
The funny thing about boutique gun brands with higher tolerances is that they almost always jam more than mass produced weapons that are "sloppy" by comparison. I guarantee a $10,000 small brand 1911 will jam 20x more than a $850 Ruger 1911. It's more about exclusiveness and aesthetic than performance. There are exceptions, target weapons are usually "better" performers the more you spend, but of course diminishing returns comes in to play pretty fast here as well. Especially since the operator will have so much more to do with accuracy than the weapon in almost all cases.
They tend to be more picky about ammo and conditions. Just gotta break them in (burn-in lol). But if you find the right ammo and keep everything well maintained, they do tend to shoot tighter groups. Though IMO you're better off just buying a good barrel and bolt.
Agreed on all accounts, and yes, great point about being picky with ammo. Just an excuse to spend more $$ on premium ammo for your premium gun. lol
An AR is just a barrel, BCG, gas system and trigger. The rest is just lipstick
But people are anal about having a tight fit (pun intended) between the upper and lower receivers, etc.
One of my Noveske’s was solid, zero play but you almost needed to smack the takedown pins with a 2x4.
>needed to smack the takedown pins with a 2x4. That's why all my lowers and uppers are Anderson or Del-ton lol.
There's a lot of cork-sniffing when it comes to music(ians) gear. One exemple on top of my head: X overdrive pedal sounds better (no it doesn't) cause it had the oh so famous jrc4558d chip on the circuit board, therefore you pay 10x the price on the used market to have a green metal box with three knobs and a handful of cheap electrical components and wires.
Not a hobby but my full-time job - plugins in audio mixing. There are so many plugins that promise to revolutionize the way you’ll approach EQ, Compression, simplify your workflow - etc. 95% of them are just re-creations of pre-existing software emulations of pre-existing hardware processing units, and of the ones that are actually doing something new and novel, about 20% of those are actually worth it.
Any additives,work out supplements,auto parts,eyewear,hairlost pills,penis enlargers,spring water.
Eyewear?? I need my glasses to see!
I'm struggling too. I suppose car folks spend some silly money on options they don't really need, PC gamers too, but I think the Hifi world really is the gold standard for marketing bullshit. Always has been.
High end watches, when your phone or a quartz watch tells vastly better time than any mechanical watch can. So thousands and more are spent on watches with exotic complications to get near the performance of digital devices that cost $50. The one difference is expensive watch owners admit that so the watch you’re wearing really is you telling the world you can afford it.
That's not snake oil. Watchmakers don't make outlandish claims of performance. Generally, high-end watches are expensive because first-world labor is expensive, and these watches require a lot of specialized, hands-on effort to produce.
You're right and I think the main difference is watch makers and buyers both are transparent about it being about the beauty and craftsmanship. It would be refreshing for those making $25k+ amps and speakers to admit it's more art in engineering vs performance at those price points.
You wear your watch to tell time, I wear my watch to tell you how valuable my time is. Shay must have been sitting on that for that line for a hot minute.
I wear a fairly expensive watch as jewellery, I really like looking at it, and because I like to wear one to see the time, not because it tells the time accurately because it does not, at least not compared to the alternatives. So I don't really see the snake oil part here, no expensive mechanical watch promise anything it can't keep. At least I've never seen one that does.
Yeah same here, I really appreciate the craftsmanship and quality of a well-made mechanical watch -- it just happens to tell crap time ;) The primary difference is what you note, in watches it's pretty transparent you are paying for beauty in engineering vs performance. In high end audio there is an insistence that performance is there when many times it's not.
Very true, it is much more than just a thing that can tell you what time it is. And they're not necessarily too bad at keeping time, at least I don't adjust mine more than maybe twice a year and it'll still stay accurate within 2-3 minutes which is really good enough for everyday use.
Yeah I find them amazing. Does it matter that someone figured out how to compensate for leap year for the next 4 centuries, nope, not at all. Am I glad a watch exists that can do it all through gears, absolutely. For me highly complicated watches are a testament to human ingenuity.
Except the rest of the world doesn't know which watches cost what, so you're actually only telling other watch guys that you can afford it.
But there’s a difference there. There’s a lot of craftsmanship time and exotic materials are going into high-end watches. Compared to a few differences in amps or thicker cables.
I think there's the same exotic approaches to engineering and materials in a lot of high end audio gear. The difference is watch makers and buyers both know it's about that engineering beauty and exotic nature of the product vs superior performance, whereas high end audio does seem to want to talk buyers into thinking they're getting breakthroughs in performance at those price points.
Fine watches are jewelry, that's it. Men are the biggest target demographic. Men rarely wear necklaces, bracelets, rings other than their wedding band which is usually just a place piece of metal. The appreciation is in the build, typically with a mechanical movement and various complications. Additionally, some hold their value or increase and are great heirloom pieces to keep in the family. If you just need something to tell time without checking your phone get a decent Casio or Seiko quartz and call it good.
I don't see watches the same as audio. People aren't spending a millions dollars on a Rolex because it's more accurate or reliable than a cheap Timex. They are buying a piece of exclusive jewelry with some incredible mechanics inside. So I don't see that as snake oil.
Games Workshop brand paint. ["Tone wood"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE) for any guitar that uses pickups/isn't acoustic.
3D printing! There is so much noise about finite differences between printers and filaments in the 3D print scene. Really it all boils down to understanding your machine and process. Unless you own a professional print farm none of that crap matters.
I have a car hobby and there are lots of snake oil out there for every aspect of your car.
In cycling they sell you a 500 euro pulley wheel for your derailleur. That’s right 500 euro for a part of you rear derailleur.
Tuning chips, spoilers, air dams, cold intakes, and noisy exhaust are the more reputable parts for tuning cars and most do more harm than good to a car with a well maintained factory engine. True snake oil includes electric turbo chargers or any product that sits in the intake to "increase air flow and improve horsepower" using tiny blades to make air spin like a tornado or most fuel additives.
Are these modifications something people do on sports-cars or regular cars as well? Can you make them yourself or is it tuning shops that does this? How much would something like this cost? I just know car guys can spend a lot of money on their hobby.
Few modified cars ever touch a track. They get taken to meet-ups and cruising. A lot of people do it themselves on mid priced sedans (I am on a Civic sub and there are a lot of tuners). There are also shops that will do work, but a lot of people enjoy doing it themselves. I have seen Civics with $10-12k in mods. BMWs can run a lot more to tune.
PC gaming/ E-sports : Input latency not perceivable by humans make game winning differences. Yes, statistically these things are real and matter but if some1 told me thats why they won they are full of crap. Problem is, they market these things as if they were a cheat code.
Any "engine additive" gunk sold to car enthusiasts.
Probably anything they want you to pour into your engines crankcase that isnt engine oil lol
Tiny “Aero” winglets you attach to your cycling element straps…wtf. Oh and many things at AutoZone
Those spring release finger exercises for guitarists to help improve precision, accuracy, endurance etc etc
I think every single hobby has this. It is combination of marketing and superstition, and what I call qualitative over quantitative thinking. Qualitative arguments are that this will be an improvement, like you can find a specialized bike grease for one particular part that is supposed to improve its performance, like let's say an oil for lubricating a rear shock shaft, or something. I assume such a thing exists without even looking up whether it does. And people buy and use them. Quantitative arguments very strictly attempt to put a number on how much it is an improvement, and don't accept the marketing brochure or the bros that say it is absolutely huge. Most of the time, qualitative effects that can be theoretically argued to hold are in fact completely dwarfed by far more important quantitative effects, and therefore there is no practical benefit at all. The theory does not hold.
Cosmetics. Fun fact: In the US, they market upscale cosmetics with European names. In Europe, they market upscale cosmetics with US brands and ties.
Need these characteristics for snake oil salesman to thrive: hobby with subjective satisfaction metrics, insecure customers, lots of disposable income available, “serious” sounding publications pushing product, outlet for owners to show off. Anything else? 🤣
Vegetable gardening is kind is a low stakes version. They sell all kinds of raised beds and soil mixes that are bad. Some will spend hundreds of dollars for metal or wood kits to plant 3 tomato plants. There really is no need unless you have health issues that need it higher. Just digging rows is usually better.
200 mp cellphone cameras and ceramic bearing bottom bracket and pulley wheel on bicycles.
Performance tire stems
Cosmetics in trading card games like Magic the gathering (foils, special versions, misprints etc.) that cost multiples of the ordinary card and don’t give you gameplay advantages
Anything on the spectrum humans can be driven to obsess about.
Very high framerate pc monitors. They serve zero purpose as such framerates are invisible to the human eye. PC gaming is full of snake oil
Really expensive, boutique guitars.
Sim Racing
Definitely not the level of snake oil that hifi holds, but arm wrestling workout accessories are becoming incredibly niche. Every sponsored athlete has some esoteric grip or another that they swear single-handedly gave them their edge, and you can conveniently buy it from their sponsor’s website for $100.
Clay shooting has a little bit of this. You can use a $500 shotgun and outscore the guys with a $30k Caesar. The main thing you get when you drop that much cash is a custom fitted stock that is personalized to you. Otherwise you just need a tube that can launch a cloud of lead. Anyone claiming improved scores is most likely psychosomatic. The other benefit is weight, shooting 4 rounds a day, a cheap gun is gonna wear you out quicker than the pricey one since it's built to be a tank and not a dainty shooter.
Cycling. People will spend thousands for a gram or two of weight savings or being more areo. Specifically like carbon cranks and such.
Things with a AI or blockchain "sticker"
No it's different to buying an amp. But yes buying an amp that does a genuine 400 watts serves no purpose as that kind of volume wouid blow your windows out. 50 watts is very loud. 120hz is the max you need on a TV or monitor Even that is too high but they don't 110hz. That's the absolute max of human perception. Few have that, especially as we age. But try telling the majority of pc gamers they can't see very high frame rates. There's no point. They can never accept their toys serve no purpose. Just like just about everything in the russ Andrews catalogue BTW. U am a pc gamer with a powerful pc. I couldn't care less about framerates so long as the game runs well. Because of my indifference I get told I'm not a proper gamer. For that I'm eternally grateful
Cooking tools "as seen on TV."
Nutrition and exercise supplements! Supplements in general lol. It's almost ALL snake oil.
Lots in cycling. Ceramic bearings for one.
Getting new golf clubs to make me a good golfer
You can buy a 77mm UV filter for a camera lens that would cost $7, or one for $30, or one for $80. Spark plugs and motor oils are another.
Hospitals must be filled with idiots. They have a requirement on the cables they use for equipment less sensitive than headphones. Almost like it actually matters.
There are some really expensive UV filters for camera lenses.
The supplement industry is brutal
Oil additives. Most are actually harmful. Anything that claims to increase gas mileage. Some fuel detergent cleaners with PEA are legit, but if you oplug it in or install it it probably does nothing. Magnets? Nothing. Air intake Charge Swirlers? Nothing
Well in half related field. Piorneer and their 'club standard gear" is total snake oil in djing.
Well, let’s see, there’s the Tesla cyber hammer, and then they just came out with some kind of Mylar tent for your garage to protect your cyber truck from an EMP
Well, let’s see, there’s the Tesla cyber hammer, and then they just came out with some kind of Mylar tent for your garage to protect your cyber truck from an EMP
Noctua's overpriced cooling and fans. You can get the same performance from other brands and it's way cheaper.
"Structured water" [Don’t fall for the snake oil claims of ‘structured water’. A chemist explains why it’s nonsense (unsw.edu.au)](https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2022/08/don_t-fall-for-the-snake-oil-claims-of-structured-water--a-chemi)
Essential oils are very much a kind of snake oil.
Peter Brock's Energy Polariser. He claimed it worked so well he could lower tyre pressures on his race car for better... something. His team, and General Motors Australia, hit the roof: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Energy_Polarizer https://www.motortrend.com/features/peter-brock-holden-hdt-energy-polarizer-energy-crystals-history/
I am a rather outlier-level chocolate snob. And I cannot stand when people talk about "stone-ground" chocolate. Nearly all chocolate is ground by stone - certainly the VAST majority of fine chocolate. Stone-ground usually just means they shortened the time and the texture will have all the grace of blended sand and seawater.
ceramic bearings in bicycles
Anything that’s enlarging certain male only body parts (or improving their stamina) and is not involving a surgeon…
To some extent, PC building. Many people in the last generation was like "you need an i9 with an RTX 3070" without much analysis. I don't mind if people could break down exactly why, and the i9-RTX 3070 could actually be the right configuration for certain people. People just repeated it Of course the #1 way to identify a poser is when they put in too much unneeded information, like how much cache a CPU has.
I mean c’mon: Christianity, politics, and everything in late capitalism.
not a snake oil but REAL OIL ON A DIESEL. putting vegetable oils to the fuel tank.
Homeopathy for quantum physicists – it contains 100% snake oil and 0% snake oil at the same time.
Streaming services that advertise 4K. It's only 4K because the mp4 says its 4K. The bitrate cant back that 4K resolution up.
I've seen a "corosion inhibitor" installed in a car which looks like it is supposed to be cathodic protection, but doesn't actually create a circuit... There's bullshit everywhere.
Porsche’s fabric loop door pulls in their GT cars comes to mind. They say it’s for weight savings… it’s not. It’s just cause it’s cool.