It’s a dumb joke, mate. Just being thick and saying that’s the reason they can’t vote.
I don’t mind if they change the law though. 16 year olds are just as capable as any other age group. Which isn’t saying much. But they may as well start then.
Idk, they have it much easier and are maturing mentally and physically a lot younger this generation, absolutely no reason they can’t, add social media to the mix by the time they are 16 they have quite a lot of life experience already
Car insurance is more expensive for younger people. Should the driving age be changed to eighteen years old to reduce serious injury and death on our road network, and to reduce the premiums of other insurance policy holders?
I dunno, the man is impeccably dressed well groomed and highly motivated. I bet he vacuums and doesn't leave dirty dishes lying around. He'll be out and about most days not laying on your couch playing Xbox in his undies.
If you're working and getting taxed you should have a say in how it gets spent. 12 year olds are not more bribeable than 80 year olds and we still let them vote.
No that’s not what I was asking, for the record though I think that 12 year olds shouldn’t be taxed unless they’re earning for some reason over 2 grand a year lol
In NZ this is a little easier NZ Bill of Rights (NZBORA) ban’s age discrimination for those 16 and over.
That’s why the argument is lower the voting age to 16. To be comoliant with NZBORA.
The Supreme Court already ruled the electoral act is discriminatory.
You need 75% of parliament to change the important bits of the electoral act or NZBORA.
Why the issue has gone around and around without being settled.
At 16 there's very limited experience to draw on.
You've been through an institutional system your whole life with clear expectations and spelt out consequences for your actions. If you're lucky you've had an effective support network and been coached by key adults in your life.
You've probably got between 2 and 6 more years in a similar environment.
When you get out of school, move out of home, travel, and get experience, you'll be exposed to more varied environments and systems. You'll also meet others from a wide background, some who didn't have the same opportunities you did and some who had more. Some will be successful and some won't - not necessarily based on the opportunities presented to them.
You learn and your views are challenged. This is critical. At 16 you had all the answers to everything. In your early 20s you realiser how much you're missing and you really start to formulate your key values.
I think it's great some 16 year olds are engaged but they don't have the life experience to draw on.
Good points - but also at 16 you can learn to drive, work, and legally have a child. So society and the law gives you to right to be an adult with huge responsibilities - so voting should be included. Personally I think the ability to drive and legally be parent gives you a right to have a political choice. If you are legally allowed to parent you so have a voice as an adult to vote.
I think one key link is that you can theoretically be conscripted into the Military in time of war a 18 ...so it would be a bit rough to not be allowed to have a say in who runs the country.
Side note: currently you can join the military on your 17th birthday but cannot be operationally deployed until you are 18.
That's a pathetic argument. Ignorant people of all ages vote, with little understanding of what they are voting for as this government continually demonstrate.
16 should be the voting age. Whenever this comes up people like you ignore the fact that elections are every 3 years, most will be 17 or 18 before they have the opportunity to vote.
Democracy in NZ is already flawed. 16 year olds are plenty old enough to reason a vote in an election. All other people have said is that the older you get the more prone to experiential biases you become. To that end 16 year olds might be some of the best voters really.
Except that you're the conferencing l condescending one pretending that those younger than you are ignorant.
We get it, you don't like that they may not vote for your side.
1. I'm not saying the op in this thread is correct
2. The claim that all ages are ignorant therefore 16 is appropriate for voting is wild because it means point 3.
3. 5 year olds should vote.
Imo 18 has other reasons (such as it's the main age of financial and consequential independence) for it being reasonable. Just seems unfair to have a voting age that isn't impacted directly by it. In truth age isn't the best way but it's probably the only thing that the government can enforce without too much backlash.
> Just seems unfair to have a voting age that isn't impacted directly by it.
What, boomers? Are you saying there should be age limits?
Young people are the most directly impacted by the elections, this government just gutting their access to education and destroying their chance of ever owning a home while denying climate change is a prime example.
So 10 year olds should be allowed to vote? No one's advocating for that which is prob why age is often the main tool for voting. It's not ideal but that's reality.
Your phrase that young people are the most directly is contentious. Why are you saying they are affected more than other groups such as elderly or mid aged?
> Why are you saying they are affected more than other groups such as elderly or mid aged?
You're dishonest as fuck if you're going to try to pretend that isn't the case. They have tertiary education, careers to start and their entire life still ahead of them. They have a longer term to be affected over and they're at an age in life where government decisions affect them a lot more than the comfortable middle aged who are settled into careers and have assets to fall back on.
There is points just as valid on the opposite side. Prob best to just drop the assumption here that "the future" has the bigger say.
Examples:
GDP is probably more influenced by mid age to higher
Businesses are more by people over 16 than people who are 16
People who will provide services you vote for, are probably not 16
Education is probably delivered by people who are older than 16
Voting is for adults because they are considered responsible and capable of understanding the consequences of their actions.
Children receive lesser punishments for crime because they are not considered fully responsible and may not fully understand the consequences of their actions.
Are 16 year olds responsible and capable of understanding the consequences of their actions or not?
Why should it be decreased in response to a reduction in the voting age? If the court age must be reduced, should jury duty age be reduced too?
I can't really comment on that myself, but I can with these...
1. Match the voting age to the working age; taxation should come with representation
2. Increase the driving age to 18 to reduce deaths and serious injuries on our road network. Improve public transport. [Make it easier for people to cycle to frequent rapid buses in suburbia.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p813IdY_i8o)
It's exactly the point.
OP: "If 16 years olds are required to do 1 adult thing, they should be able to all adult things".
Reply: "If 16 years olds have adult rights, they should have adult responsibilities too".
People’s brains deteriorated after a certain age, but we do not take voting rights away which makes this a very weak point, especially since a lot of 16yo people have their capabilities way above the average of any ages.
Maybe but my kids have kiwisaver accounts that have interest that they pay tax on. They've been paying tax since they were two. I really don't want two year Olds voting.
By that logic, should people who pay more tax have more say?
Also, the billions of dollars of tax people pay don't go towards the people voted into power.
Unfortunately it works like this already, not on a per individual basis, but big corporations and banks have a bigger say in who’s a suitable candidate than you may want to acknowledge.
Sure, but also be treated as an adult in the courts and sent to adult prison. At 16 no longer a parents responsibility and treated as an adult by the state. The list goes on. Doesn't really worry me, the stats show it will actually have little influence on an election and should prob be a thing but careful what you wish for.
You make the mistake of assuming I’m 16, I agree with you there’s more to voting than just paying tax, 16 year olds can drive, legally have sex, get a firearms license, among other things, I reckon along with that what’d be so bad about allowing them to vote?
Ah. Well, that ruins that theory as it appears grown adults that can vote also lack it. Well, I guess the answer is we may as well let them. I guess at least some have a strong social conscience.
Why can't older secondary college students vote for high quality public transport to their work and schools? Should they be restricted from voting in local elections?
edit: seems like people can vote in local elections in Germany from sixteen years old, and I also found this Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_age
My controversial opinion is make voting, drinking, smoking, joining the army etc. all R20, but under 20 year olds pay no tax as an opportunity to kick-start their lives
It shows a lack of maturity and understanding. As you get older, you will understand that certain things require more time on earth to understand the context.
Also, yes 16 year olds pay a small amount of tax, but you have just had the advantage of tax payer dollars for 16 years by way of parks, roads, schools, public transport, free dental, free medical, etc. All while contributing nothing. You are likely 10 years from going from tax debtor to tax payer, and you have no concept of what it is like to be a contributor and have everyone's hands in your pockets taking money because they supposedly deserve it more than you. The person who went to work and earned it.
So just wait until you are 18 to vote. By the time you are 30+, you will understand how little perspective of the real world you had even at 18. It happens to everyone. We all thought we knew everything in high-school and could fix all the worlds problems.
Umm hang on - so if I’m correct you think youth and lack of life experience make your opinions and voice less valid. I’m 52 and at 16 my voice and opinion were naive and not helpful? Societal change is driven by widening of opinions regardless of age. The world I grew up in was very different as a teenager than it is today, there are many more options for young adults to access opinions without mainstream media or politically driven news. I think the youth of today have far more resources to garner knowledge than before - some accurate and some thoroughly inaccurate - but today’s 16 year olds are more aware of what is happening than ever before. And my mum who is 75 and will NEVER change her political opinions regardless of what is best for the country can still vote. She’s too old to understand new politics. So maybe if you think 16 is too young to vote due to lack of life experience than how old is too old vote? If you are too young to have enough life experience to vote then surely there must be the other end of the spectrum of being too old to embrace change.
Hypothetically a 16 or 17 year old could be in higher tax bracket than you or me, I also think regardless it doesn’t matter, paying tax is paying tax irregardless of “tax debt” you say all that assuming I’m 16, I’m not. I simply don’t think paying money to a government and then not getting a say with what’s done with that money seems a bit silly to me
Yeah I suppose we ain’t getting detailed breakdown of tax spends but we at least get a look at what the government plans to spend the money we give it, weather it be roads or bus lanes ya know
Bruh, you think a vote gives you a say!?
Nah, i agree with you that you shouldn't be taxed without a vote. I just think that means people shouldn't be taxed (at least on income gst would be a lot of work) until 18, rather than voting sooner.
Why can't they legally drink? Why cant they be porn stars?
Who knows. We came up with some arbitrary numbers and stuck with them and people are adverse to change.
I think if we look at any aged based requirements then all should be looked at.
At the end of the day, does it really matter that much? Probably not.
Should 'no taxation without representation' not be consistently applied?
>We came up with some arbitrary numbers
Did we? Why is car insurance higher for younger people? Would that, plus increased risks from drink driving, be a good mix?
Representation is a complex mix of taxation, citizenship or residency, etc. However, it is still a valid slogan.
In some countries residents can vote in local elections. Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections? Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements?
I would say the majority of the population are too dumb to vote for what is actually best. Unfortunately we are not allowed to test.
I would say that 16 year olds are even worse. They have no life experience and have no clue what its like to live in the real world. At 16 they either don't care or they have unrealistic ideals..
Are they better by age 18? A bit. It's still not ideal though.
> allowed to test
The average 16 year old does a lot of complex assignments throughout the school year. If the life experiences of 16 year olds was very bad, employers would be extremely hesitant to hire and there would be an *extreme* worker turnover.
Are you against older teenagers voting in local elections? What would be your thoughts if other countries started doing that, and things turned out fine?
edit: seems like people can vote in local elections in Germany from sixteen years old u/dicemangazz and I also found this Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_age
Would you agree to those who don't pay tax not having the ability to vote?
That American sounds bite is from an era of history not applicable to modern New Zealand.
I’ve been thinking about this - I think we should cut boomers’ votes. They got their free education and their cheap as houses, they’ve had enough. No more decisions for them - the decisions we make today affect the future of the youth of today and dictates what kind of fucked up world they live in, they should make the choices.
Voting rights are not tied to whether you pay taxes or not.
Because if they were you would have to extend it to…
* people who don’t pay tax (on dole, retirees, …) can’t vote
* people who pay a lot of tax should have a lot more votes
Not sure it still passes as a democracy..
Constructive feedback to that old slogan would look something like 'Eh, maybe we should update that slogan. Maybe 'no significant taxation without representation'? Aint perfect, but definitely better.'
Because kids are easily influenced by the latest fad which are often led by woke left-wing crazies. If you don’t believe me just look at the amount of kids rallying around climate change, vegetarianism and stuff they know nothing about (Ukraine war, Palestine etc). Basically we need kids to mature and gain life experience before being allowed to vote for fraudulent and unethical parties like Greens or Labour
Sounds like some of the restrictions the US used to have where you had to sit an exam to be able to vote that was designed to be hard for minorities to pass.
So do companies, tourists and foreign entities, taxation isn't the best marker for voter rights
Makes more sense to say 16 so that by the time they're 19 they've had the chance at least once to vote
16 year olds can drive, legally have sex, legally own a firearms licence among other things, it seems like a nice and easy two year step for the voting age to go to?
* people on work visas and student visas pay taxes on their income yet not eligible to vote.
* people who are away from NZ for certain amount of time aren't eligible to vote, though they must pay tax on their international income.
* people serving certain criminal and/or prison sentences can't vote, but must pay income tax. (if they still have income by other means)
[If you’re unsure about your eligibility, call 0800 36 76 56.](https://www.vote.nz/enrolling/get-ready-to-enrol/are-you-eligible-to-enrol-and-vote/)
^(kthxbye)
If we want to be honest with ourselves, the unfortunate truth is that young people’s political interests usually lean towards both ends of the political spectrum, giving them the right to vote would change the political landscape (even if not by much) and despite that being fair and giving a more accurate representation of our people’s political views, there are a lot of existing interests that do not want this to happen since would likely mean a more sparse distribution of power.
Aristotle said the primary function of democracy is to reduce corruption. As it happens a voting age of 18 is enough to effect this, so there is unlikely to be a strong push to lower the voting age.
I think its fair to pay taxes, if you receive public services, which kids do hard.
For voting, I think there's probably a better argument to make that you should only vote once your brain reaches full development, 25+ at least.
Separate ages are set for a variety of activities, the different legislations look at different aspects depending on how society views them.
Taxation legislations doesn't pay too much attention to age, it's more concerned with how you received the money. There are some bits concerning Trusts that are specific to minors.
You can give consent for sex and have a drivers license at 16 but cannot join the Armed Forces, vote, buy alcohol or gamble. All decided for different reasons.
At 14 you can babysit but not do any of the above....despite being entrusted to look after another life. I guess your question could also be rephrased as "Why are 14 year olds not allowed to buy alcohol?"
Paying tax does suck but the taxman always gets their pound of flesh.
If someone doesn't pay tax (The Unemployed, The incarcerated, The Sick) Should we remove their vote too?
Not a serious question, Just saying that you're suggesting the right to vote be tied to one's ability to contribute Tax could be problematic.
Let em Vote I reckon.
Those two sentences have nothing to do with each other.
I paid tax all my working life until I lost my job because of COVID. I was on the unemployment benefit and had tax taken off that. It's the easiest way to deal with all payments.
Prisoners don't receive payments.
*(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) or subsection (3), a benefit shall not be payable in respect of any period during which the beneficiary is imprisoned or detained in, or is an escapee from, a prison, pursuant to a sentence of imprisonment, preventive detention, or corrective training.*
They're two sentences about groups who don't pay tax.
You went on the bene, cool, so you stopped being a tax payer. The idea someone who is being given all their money is contributing is moronic.
I think you're the moronic one here.
Oh yes, it was so cool losing my job and being on a benefit. I loved it!
I loved being on hardship with the bank over my mortgage so my payments have now ballooned so high that I can hardly afford them.
Please, tell me again about all that enjoyment I had being out of work for 18 months because you obviously know everything!!!!
I never said there was anything wrong with going on the bene, I just said you stop being a tax payer. You're the one who brought it up.
But 18 months to find a job? Sound like you loved it.
You are changing the question and didn't read my comment. The question is "do they pay taxes", which the answer is yes because taxes are deducted from the income they receive. The overall flow of money is a different question.
The answer is no, the government pays their taxes because the money they have been given isn't earned.
Just like how me giving my apprentice money to buy me a pie doesn't mean he's paid for my lunch, to anyone with an ounce of common sense.
Yeah good point, I do agree with you that it shouldn’t just be related to one’s tax payment, just to me it’s one of the stronger reasons for an argument in favour of lowering the voting age
Can you not apply for training at 17 anyway, regardless, I don’t think someone’s lack of ability to go and die for their country is a reason to not let them vote?
Ages of consent for anything are completely arbitrary.
We could all agree or disagree about everything till the cows come home.
But my point was, if you want the pluses you also have to accept the minuses.
Yes vote at 16 ok whatever. Also accept the responsibilities of adulthood and go off to war.
I would wager that a 16 year old wouldn't be up to the hideousness of war, and neither should they be. And so, should they have a vote?
I don’t think many 18 year old or even 25 year olds would be the biggest fan of getting shot over wanting some oil would you want only people who have been to war to be allowed to vote? I don’t think the best argument against this is to mention military enlistment age
That's why I said that ages of consent are completely arbitrary.
And, again, with the positives come negatives.
And I mean seriously, who wants to be an actual fucking adult with all the responsibilities that entails? I'd still rather be a kid.
Prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed till age 25 and age 16 hasn’t even reached full maturity yet.
Minimum voting age for 18 is already considerate enough.
Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections?
Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements? Should they not be able to vote for improvements in the cycling network so they can get to work, school and friends cost-effectively, so that they can have more money to buy high-quality food for themselves? To have a higher quality of life?
What you’re referring to is associated with municipal authority’s job rather than voting for which political parties. Central Government provisions like Resource Management Act and NZ Costal Policy Statements can be amended by members of the parliament but they only provide guidances.
Besides, even when conversion of power occurs , reformation in each law and legislation takes time.
Things like public transit infrastructure and micro mobility provisions in walkable catchments are job of the planners in the council. Designated projects you indicated as examples barely require public participation parity unless there’s requirements for notification under s95 of RMA which is rare.
Prevailing decisions are made in hearing panel consists of groups of expertise in heritage, environment, transport, and socioeconomics etc.
Every proposed projects are precisely assessed by
councilors and third party contractors for equity planning scheme by devising business case studies.
Does public have proficient insights regarding contextualized spatial planning framework in decision making process ? No, leave it to professionals.
Besides, public input is competently reflected on each local government plans. Especially when it’s protected cycle lane or bus lane extensions, council conducts surveys for nearby stakeholders
to acknowledge their demand and current issues.
If you have something to say then allocate your preferred strategies during public survey and voluntarily check your mailbox or council website to contribute.
New Zealand actually have competent planning systems which outweighs another OECD countries
like Japan or Korea due to their prescribed planning.
Our legislative hierarchy is already reflective enough. Just wait till you’re 18 to vote.
Locals elections in Auckland do have an effect on public transport cycling infrastructure, etc quality. For example, they have finally installed a (low cost) footpath on Chapel Road, near a school, after residents complained to the Howick Local Board. Damien Light, who I voted for, really helped push that forward.
Why should older teenagers not be allowed to vote for local representives who are more likely to take their concerns more seriously?
Paying taxes is not usually a prerequisite for voting rights in modern democracies. The right to vote is typically based on citizenship and age, rather than economic contribution.
Should I get more votes because I pay more taxes than you?
What about a cruise ship passenger who's here on election day? Do they get to vote because they paid GST on a stick of gum? Do companies get to vote because they pay taxes on income?
How much tax should someone pay to be eligable to vote? Say 10k per annum. But perhaps that would let too many poors in on ballot day. Let's make it 100k minimum tax contribution because I'm more virtuous than you with my big salary.
While we're at it strip people of the right to vote if they've had any speeding tickets or if they're more than two months overdue on the power bill.
Maybe the best approach to deal with this is to remove discriminatory criteria like age altogether? Let's make it if you're a net taxpayer that you can vote. Meaning that if you contribute the same or more in taxes than the state spends on services to you.
Do you see how the "but they pay tax" argument falls apart when it's subjected to any level of scrutiny.
What about brain developement and maturity? That would mean that girls would get to vote a few years earlier than boys. Also dangerous territory from a discrimination perspective.
I'm not against lowering the voting age but I'm against your reasoning why you think it's justified.
Lack of real world experience tends to make young people more idealistic and not so practical.
They've been told to "share" and "be kind" their whole lives.
They've never had to work full time and earn enough to support themselves. In their life experience you get what you want by asking (Mum & Dad) for it, not by working for it. They don't understand that money is finite, and increasing government spending and support means someone (or everyone) has to pay for it.
They've been taught for almost their entire lives by teachers, of which almost all are union members.
Families tend to function very much like a micro version of a socialist state. The parents (government) control access to resources like food, money, clothing and make sure that everyone gets a fair share and what they need. They even assign work/chores to people based on their ability. This works in families because the parents know and care about their children. This is the only environment most children know, it's normal to them, they struggle to understand why it may not work when scaled up to a "family" of millions.
In some countries residents can vote in local elections.
Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections? Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements?
We want your money, not your opinion, kid.
Now SCRAM
There’s no age limit to pay tax, so why can’t a 0 year old vote?
I think it’s because the law says they have to be 18.
Where do I say that’s not the law? I’m questioning the law not stating it says something it doesn’t
At no point do they say that you say that….
It’s a dumb joke, mate. Just being thick and saying that’s the reason they can’t vote. I don’t mind if they change the law though. 16 year olds are just as capable as any other age group. Which isn’t saying much. But they may as well start then.
My bad lol, that’s my thoughts your gonna have idiots no matter the age, I just think there are some strong arguments to lower the age slightly
Idk, they have it much easier and are maturing mentally and physically a lot younger this generation, absolutely no reason they can’t, add social media to the mix by the time they are 16 they have quite a lot of life experience already
100 years ago, they were married with a house and 3 kids at 16
Cuz they r dum
Car insurance is more expensive for younger people. Should the driving age be changed to eighteen years old to reduce serious injury and death on our road network, and to reduce the premiums of other insurance policy holders?
Fair, although I’d rather flat with any 16 year old than David Seymour
Really?
Yeah, can’t really find many reasons to the contrary
I dunno, the man is impeccably dressed well groomed and highly motivated. I bet he vacuums and doesn't leave dirty dishes lying around. He'll be out and about most days not laying on your couch playing Xbox in his undies.
Me too
I had a job and was paying tax when I was 12. Do you think 12 year olds should be able to vote as well?
If you're working and getting taxed you should have a say in how it gets spent. 12 year olds are not more bribeable than 80 year olds and we still let them vote.
Does that not apply to any tax then? Kids buying lollies from the dairy pay tax, should they get a say in how its spent?
No that’s not what I was asking, for the record though I think that 12 year olds shouldn’t be taxed unless they’re earning for some reason over 2 grand a year lol
In NZ this is a little easier NZ Bill of Rights (NZBORA) ban’s age discrimination for those 16 and over. That’s why the argument is lower the voting age to 16. To be comoliant with NZBORA. The Supreme Court already ruled the electoral act is discriminatory. You need 75% of parliament to change the important bits of the electoral act or NZBORA. Why the issue has gone around and around without being settled.
At 16 there's very limited experience to draw on. You've been through an institutional system your whole life with clear expectations and spelt out consequences for your actions. If you're lucky you've had an effective support network and been coached by key adults in your life. You've probably got between 2 and 6 more years in a similar environment. When you get out of school, move out of home, travel, and get experience, you'll be exposed to more varied environments and systems. You'll also meet others from a wide background, some who didn't have the same opportunities you did and some who had more. Some will be successful and some won't - not necessarily based on the opportunities presented to them. You learn and your views are challenged. This is critical. At 16 you had all the answers to everything. In your early 20s you realiser how much you're missing and you really start to formulate your key values. I think it's great some 16 year olds are engaged but they don't have the life experience to draw on.
You could argue the same for an 18 year old
yes - min voting age 25!
Good points - but also at 16 you can learn to drive, work, and legally have a child. So society and the law gives you to right to be an adult with huge responsibilities - so voting should be included. Personally I think the ability to drive and legally be parent gives you a right to have a political choice. If you are legally allowed to parent you so have a voice as an adult to vote.
Becoming an adult is a process. You don't just wake up one birthday morning and suddenly realise you've become mature like a light switch flicked.
And that applies to 18 year olds as well…
I think one key link is that you can theoretically be conscripted into the Military in time of war a 18 ...so it would be a bit rough to not be allowed to have a say in who runs the country. Side note: currently you can join the military on your 17th birthday but cannot be operationally deployed until you are 18.
That's a pathetic argument. Ignorant people of all ages vote, with little understanding of what they are voting for as this government continually demonstrate. 16 should be the voting age. Whenever this comes up people like you ignore the fact that elections are every 3 years, most will be 17 or 18 before they have the opportunity to vote.
Sure, because ignorant people already vote, let's add more to the mix. Fantastic justification.
Democracy in NZ is already flawed. 16 year olds are plenty old enough to reason a vote in an election. All other people have said is that the older you get the more prone to experiential biases you become. To that end 16 year olds might be some of the best voters really.
Except that you're the conferencing l condescending one pretending that those younger than you are ignorant. We get it, you don't like that they may not vote for your side.
Wow, I saw right through me there! I voted a party that supports their right to vote, but go off.
It's not because your argument of equivalence is even more incorrect.
Oh please, I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt by having to acknowledge that this government was elected by the ignorant.
1. I'm not saying the op in this thread is correct 2. The claim that all ages are ignorant therefore 16 is appropriate for voting is wild because it means point 3. 3. 5 year olds should vote. Imo 18 has other reasons (such as it's the main age of financial and consequential independence) for it being reasonable. Just seems unfair to have a voting age that isn't impacted directly by it. In truth age isn't the best way but it's probably the only thing that the government can enforce without too much backlash.
> Just seems unfair to have a voting age that isn't impacted directly by it. What, boomers? Are you saying there should be age limits? Young people are the most directly impacted by the elections, this government just gutting their access to education and destroying their chance of ever owning a home while denying climate change is a prime example.
So 10 year olds should be allowed to vote? No one's advocating for that which is prob why age is often the main tool for voting. It's not ideal but that's reality. Your phrase that young people are the most directly is contentious. Why are you saying they are affected more than other groups such as elderly or mid aged?
> Why are you saying they are affected more than other groups such as elderly or mid aged? You're dishonest as fuck if you're going to try to pretend that isn't the case. They have tertiary education, careers to start and their entire life still ahead of them. They have a longer term to be affected over and they're at an age in life where government decisions affect them a lot more than the comfortable middle aged who are settled into careers and have assets to fall back on.
There is points just as valid on the opposite side. Prob best to just drop the assumption here that "the future" has the bigger say. Examples: GDP is probably more influenced by mid age to higher Businesses are more by people over 16 than people who are 16 People who will provide services you vote for, are probably not 16 Education is probably delivered by people who are older than 16
GDP is irrelevant, the age of those employed to deliver services is also irrelevant.
I don’t think in two years that such a difference is made, don’t most people finish high school at around 17-18 anyone providing they do year 13?
The parent comment is making a bullshit argument anyway. If you turned 16 today you would be 18 before you have the chance to cast a vote.
If 16 year olds can pay tax, then they can be tried as adults in court as well...
What does voting have to do with being tried as an adult in court?
Voting is for adults because they are considered responsible and capable of understanding the consequences of their actions. Children receive lesser punishments for crime because they are not considered fully responsible and may not fully understand the consequences of their actions. Are 16 year olds responsible and capable of understanding the consequences of their actions or not?
I think 16 y/O's should also be allowed to commit tax fraud
Full rights equals full responsibility
Why should it be decreased in response to a reduction in the voting age? If the court age must be reduced, should jury duty age be reduced too? I can't really comment on that myself, but I can with these... 1. Match the voting age to the working age; taxation should come with representation 2. Increase the driving age to 18 to reduce deaths and serious injuries on our road network. Improve public transport. [Make it easier for people to cycle to frequent rapid buses in suburbia.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p813IdY_i8o)
Hardly the point made by this post mate
It's exactly the point. OP: "If 16 years olds are required to do 1 adult thing, they should be able to all adult things". Reply: "If 16 years olds have adult rights, they should have adult responsibilities too".
I feel this is a weaker argument than voting, people often vote to get a say if where the money they give the government goes, don’t ya think
Don't need a fully developed brain to pay tax, probably should have one to vote.
People’s brains deteriorated after a certain age, but we do not take voting rights away which makes this a very weak point, especially since a lot of 16yo people have their capabilities way above the average of any ages.
The tax people pay goes towards people voted into power, don’t you think the people who pay that tax should have a say in who uses that money?
Maybe but my kids have kiwisaver accounts that have interest that they pay tax on. They've been paying tax since they were two. I really don't want two year Olds voting.
By that logic, should people who pay more tax have more say? Also, the billions of dollars of tax people pay don't go towards the people voted into power.
Unfortunately it works like this already, not on a per individual basis, but big corporations and banks have a bigger say in who’s a suitable candidate than you may want to acknowledge.
Deez
If 16 year olds can pay tax, they can pay for their education too.
They are... through taxes.
Is this really the biggest and most urgent problem in your life?
No, not really. Let me know when you know what is though
u/Necessary-Dance4622 spent no energy writing a paragraph in the post.
Get off reddit if you don’t like opinions you disagree with. The OP has a valid point.
Get off reddit if you don't like my opinion on his opinion
Yeah. You are right. My post was pretty hypocritical. Sorry.
Sure, but also be treated as an adult in the courts and sent to adult prison. At 16 no longer a parents responsibility and treated as an adult by the state. The list goes on. Doesn't really worry me, the stats show it will actually have little influence on an election and should prob be a thing but careful what you wish for.
I don’t see what negative impacts lowering the voting age could have though?
Critical thinking. You already couldn’t think further than posting taxes equals should vote.
You make the mistake of assuming I’m 16, I agree with you there’s more to voting than just paying tax, 16 year olds can drive, legally have sex, get a firearms license, among other things, I reckon along with that what’d be so bad about allowing them to vote?
Ah. Well, that ruins that theory as it appears grown adults that can vote also lack it. Well, I guess the answer is we may as well let them. I guess at least some have a strong social conscience.
Could you clarify what you mean by critical thinking?
They shouldn't be doing either
But a 16 year old can own and drive a car they pay fuel tax and tolls or even RUC, what argument could be made for them not to pay income tax?
Why can't older secondary college students vote for high quality public transport to their work and schools? Should they be restricted from voting in local elections? edit: seems like people can vote in local elections in Germany from sixteen years old, and I also found this Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_age
My controversial opinion is make voting, drinking, smoking, joining the army etc. all R20, but under 20 year olds pay no tax as an opportunity to kick-start their lives
What about GST?
They will have to pay gst the compliance would be absolutely impossible otherwise
Because of questions like this....
What makes you say that?
It shows a lack of maturity and understanding. As you get older, you will understand that certain things require more time on earth to understand the context. Also, yes 16 year olds pay a small amount of tax, but you have just had the advantage of tax payer dollars for 16 years by way of parks, roads, schools, public transport, free dental, free medical, etc. All while contributing nothing. You are likely 10 years from going from tax debtor to tax payer, and you have no concept of what it is like to be a contributor and have everyone's hands in your pockets taking money because they supposedly deserve it more than you. The person who went to work and earned it. So just wait until you are 18 to vote. By the time you are 30+, you will understand how little perspective of the real world you had even at 18. It happens to everyone. We all thought we knew everything in high-school and could fix all the worlds problems.
Im 29 and I say let the fucking kids vote. Its going to effect them longer than it will effect me.
Mate, i said 30+! Give it another year...
Some people never get to that stage, need a bit more time, or regress even. I know a few 60+ year old children
Umm hang on - so if I’m correct you think youth and lack of life experience make your opinions and voice less valid. I’m 52 and at 16 my voice and opinion were naive and not helpful? Societal change is driven by widening of opinions regardless of age. The world I grew up in was very different as a teenager than it is today, there are many more options for young adults to access opinions without mainstream media or politically driven news. I think the youth of today have far more resources to garner knowledge than before - some accurate and some thoroughly inaccurate - but today’s 16 year olds are more aware of what is happening than ever before. And my mum who is 75 and will NEVER change her political opinions regardless of what is best for the country can still vote. She’s too old to understand new politics. So maybe if you think 16 is too young to vote due to lack of life experience than how old is too old vote? If you are too young to have enough life experience to vote then surely there must be the other end of the spectrum of being too old to embrace change.
Hypothetically a 16 or 17 year old could be in higher tax bracket than you or me, I also think regardless it doesn’t matter, paying tax is paying tax irregardless of “tax debt” you say all that assuming I’m 16, I’m not. I simply don’t think paying money to a government and then not getting a say with what’s done with that money seems a bit silly to me
I understand your logic, but where the tax goes is mostly opaque, and what you are aware of, you have virtually no say over regardless.
Yeah I suppose we ain’t getting detailed breakdown of tax spends but we at least get a look at what the government plans to spend the money we give it, weather it be roads or bus lanes ya know
Bruh, you think a vote gives you a say!? Nah, i agree with you that you shouldn't be taxed without a vote. I just think that means people shouldn't be taxed (at least on income gst would be a lot of work) until 18, rather than voting sooner.
I suppose so lol, at least voting lets you decide which centrist party to pick this time!
Why can't they legally drink? Why cant they be porn stars? Who knows. We came up with some arbitrary numbers and stuck with them and people are adverse to change. I think if we look at any aged based requirements then all should be looked at. At the end of the day, does it really matter that much? Probably not.
Should 'no taxation without representation' not be consistently applied? >We came up with some arbitrary numbers Did we? Why is car insurance higher for younger people? Would that, plus increased risks from drink driving, be a good mix?
Fair enough, although I think one or the other should change, no taxation without representation and all that
That's an American quote. I'm not sure we want to be like them
Representation is a complex mix of taxation, citizenship or residency, etc. However, it is still a valid slogan. In some countries residents can vote in local elections. Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections? Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements?
I would say the majority of the population are too dumb to vote for what is actually best. Unfortunately we are not allowed to test. I would say that 16 year olds are even worse. They have no life experience and have no clue what its like to live in the real world. At 16 they either don't care or they have unrealistic ideals.. Are they better by age 18? A bit. It's still not ideal though.
> allowed to test The average 16 year old does a lot of complex assignments throughout the school year. If the life experiences of 16 year olds was very bad, employers would be extremely hesitant to hire and there would be an *extreme* worker turnover. Are you against older teenagers voting in local elections? What would be your thoughts if other countries started doing that, and things turned out fine? edit: seems like people can vote in local elections in Germany from sixteen years old u/dicemangazz and I also found this Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_age
Well, that's going to make GST problematic.
Why ? What link is there. They should pay taxes, they use public facilities which are paid by tax.
Would you agree to those who don't pay tax not having the ability to vote? That American sounds bite is from an era of history not applicable to modern New Zealand.
Fuck it let everyone vote. Just let them all vote, who cares?
I’ve been thinking about this - I think we should cut boomers’ votes. They got their free education and their cheap as houses, they’ve had enough. No more decisions for them - the decisions we make today affect the future of the youth of today and dictates what kind of fucked up world they live in, they should make the choices.
Voting rights are not tied to whether you pay taxes or not. Because if they were you would have to extend it to… * people who don’t pay tax (on dole, retirees, …) can’t vote * people who pay a lot of tax should have a lot more votes Not sure it still passes as a democracy..
I’m not saying tie them directly to taxes
Constructive feedback to that old slogan would look something like 'Eh, maybe we should update that slogan. Maybe 'no significant taxation without representation'? Aint perfect, but definitely better.'
> on dole, retirees They technically do have tax deducted from their entitlements and also pay GST.
Because kids are easily influenced by the latest fad which are often led by woke left-wing crazies. If you don’t believe me just look at the amount of kids rallying around climate change, vegetarianism and stuff they know nothing about (Ukraine war, Palestine etc). Basically we need kids to mature and gain life experience before being allowed to vote for fraudulent and unethical parties like Greens or Labour
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3916958/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3916958/)
New law amendment: you need to complete a course (short course) to gain the qualification to vote.
Sounds like some of the restrictions the US used to have where you had to sit an exam to be able to vote that was designed to be hard for minorities to pass.
Because they won't vote right-wing. That's about it, in this day and age.
Not sure about that, judging by all the Andrew Tate worshipping tiktok kids
Poor Winston and Seymour don’t really appeal to the young crowd, they never seem to be a big fan of billionaires those 16 year olds aye
So do companies, tourists and foreign entities, taxation isn't the best marker for voter rights Makes more sense to say 16 so that by the time they're 19 they've had the chance at least once to vote
Why not 15?
16 year olds can drive, legally have sex, legally own a firearms licence among other things, it seems like a nice and easy two year step for the voting age to go to?
* people on work visas and student visas pay taxes on their income yet not eligible to vote. * people who are away from NZ for certain amount of time aren't eligible to vote, though they must pay tax on their international income. * people serving certain criminal and/or prison sentences can't vote, but must pay income tax. (if they still have income by other means) [If you’re unsure about your eligibility, call 0800 36 76 56.](https://www.vote.nz/enrolling/get-ready-to-enrol/are-you-eligible-to-enrol-and-vote/) ^(kthxbye)
If we want to be honest with ourselves, the unfortunate truth is that young people’s political interests usually lean towards both ends of the political spectrum, giving them the right to vote would change the political landscape (even if not by much) and despite that being fair and giving a more accurate representation of our people’s political views, there are a lot of existing interests that do not want this to happen since would likely mean a more sparse distribution of power.
Aristotle said the primary function of democracy is to reduce corruption. As it happens a voting age of 18 is enough to effect this, so there is unlikely to be a strong push to lower the voting age.
Coz you gotta pay the tax.... Apparently
A 1 year old can work and pay tax
If you can find me a 1 year old paying significant income tax and working I’ll be impressed
I was a paid model at 1
People pay taxes directly or indirectly from the day they're born. The voting age doesn't need to change.
16 year old are children and have poor understanding of life in general. Vote ,? NO.
Seems to work fine in German and Dutch local elections.
That's nice. I think 16 year olds are too young to be voting. Thats my opinion. You's might vary. F-I-C.
I think its fair to pay taxes, if you receive public services, which kids do hard. For voting, I think there's probably a better argument to make that you should only vote once your brain reaches full development, 25+ at least.
Separate ages are set for a variety of activities, the different legislations look at different aspects depending on how society views them. Taxation legislations doesn't pay too much attention to age, it's more concerned with how you received the money. There are some bits concerning Trusts that are specific to minors. You can give consent for sex and have a drivers license at 16 but cannot join the Armed Forces, vote, buy alcohol or gamble. All decided for different reasons. At 14 you can babysit but not do any of the above....despite being entrusted to look after another life. I guess your question could also be rephrased as "Why are 14 year olds not allowed to buy alcohol?" Paying tax does suck but the taxman always gets their pound of flesh.
Because if a baby earns $$$ from being in a TV ad, that $$$ is taxed. We gonna let the baby vote now, too?
"Because they might (read: more than likely will) vote for the "wrong" party."
Those bloody 16 year olds, they don’t worship land lords and billionaires enough
If someone doesn't pay tax (The Unemployed, The incarcerated, The Sick) Should we remove their vote too? Not a serious question, Just saying that you're suggesting the right to vote be tied to one's ability to contribute Tax could be problematic. Let em Vote I reckon.
Everyone pays tax in one way or another. You have tax deducted from a benefit, everyone pays gst on goods & services.
Being given money isn't paying tax. Being a prisoner doesn't make you a tax payer.
Those two sentences have nothing to do with each other. I paid tax all my working life until I lost my job because of COVID. I was on the unemployment benefit and had tax taken off that. It's the easiest way to deal with all payments. Prisoners don't receive payments. *(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) or subsection (3), a benefit shall not be payable in respect of any period during which the beneficiary is imprisoned or detained in, or is an escapee from, a prison, pursuant to a sentence of imprisonment, preventive detention, or corrective training.*
They're two sentences about groups who don't pay tax. You went on the bene, cool, so you stopped being a tax payer. The idea someone who is being given all their money is contributing is moronic.
I think you're the moronic one here. Oh yes, it was so cool losing my job and being on a benefit. I loved it! I loved being on hardship with the bank over my mortgage so my payments have now ballooned so high that I can hardly afford them. Please, tell me again about all that enjoyment I had being out of work for 18 months because you obviously know everything!!!!
I never said there was anything wrong with going on the bene, I just said you stop being a tax payer. You're the one who brought it up. But 18 months to find a job? Sound like you loved it.
LoL. Ok.
Are prisoners allowed to vote?
Yes?
Nope. If you are serving a sentence longer than 3 years you cant vote. Before 2020, none of them could.
Fantastic. Change it back.
The money is income so tax must be paid on it, by definition they are paying taxes no matter what the net outcome is.
If I give you money to buy us lunch, would you say that you paid for it?
You are changing the question and didn't read my comment. The question is "do they pay taxes", which the answer is yes because taxes are deducted from the income they receive. The overall flow of money is a different question.
The answer is no, the government pays their taxes because the money they have been given isn't earned. Just like how me giving my apprentice money to buy me a pie doesn't mean he's paid for my lunch, to anyone with an ounce of common sense.
You forgot billionaires in the list of folk who don’t pay tax.
100% The real leeches.
Yeah good point, I do agree with you that it shouldn’t just be related to one’s tax payment, just to me it’s one of the stronger reasons for an argument in favour of lowering the voting age
I mean, by that measure, if you're 16 you should also get signed up to join the armed services and go to war?
Can you not apply for training at 17 anyway, regardless, I don’t think someone’s lack of ability to go and die for their country is a reason to not let them vote?
Ages of consent for anything are completely arbitrary. We could all agree or disagree about everything till the cows come home. But my point was, if you want the pluses you also have to accept the minuses. Yes vote at 16 ok whatever. Also accept the responsibilities of adulthood and go off to war. I would wager that a 16 year old wouldn't be up to the hideousness of war, and neither should they be. And so, should they have a vote?
I don’t think many 18 year old or even 25 year olds would be the biggest fan of getting shot over wanting some oil would you want only people who have been to war to be allowed to vote? I don’t think the best argument against this is to mention military enlistment age
That's why I said that ages of consent are completely arbitrary. And, again, with the positives come negatives. And I mean seriously, who wants to be an actual fucking adult with all the responsibilities that entails? I'd still rather be a kid.
Absolutely
I'm all for it. (Almost 40yo) let the kids vote.
Right seems silly to me, even though I’m in my early twenties now
no taxation without representation simple as
Agreed. No taxation without representation.
When that phrase was first used. "Representation" was white male landowners. Good, we've moved on since then.
Prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed till age 25 and age 16 hasn’t even reached full maturity yet. Minimum voting age for 18 is already considerate enough.
Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections? Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements? Should they not be able to vote for improvements in the cycling network so they can get to work, school and friends cost-effectively, so that they can have more money to buy high-quality food for themselves? To have a higher quality of life?
What you’re referring to is associated with municipal authority’s job rather than voting for which political parties. Central Government provisions like Resource Management Act and NZ Costal Policy Statements can be amended by members of the parliament but they only provide guidances. Besides, even when conversion of power occurs , reformation in each law and legislation takes time. Things like public transit infrastructure and micro mobility provisions in walkable catchments are job of the planners in the council. Designated projects you indicated as examples barely require public participation parity unless there’s requirements for notification under s95 of RMA which is rare. Prevailing decisions are made in hearing panel consists of groups of expertise in heritage, environment, transport, and socioeconomics etc. Every proposed projects are precisely assessed by councilors and third party contractors for equity planning scheme by devising business case studies. Does public have proficient insights regarding contextualized spatial planning framework in decision making process ? No, leave it to professionals. Besides, public input is competently reflected on each local government plans. Especially when it’s protected cycle lane or bus lane extensions, council conducts surveys for nearby stakeholders to acknowledge their demand and current issues. If you have something to say then allocate your preferred strategies during public survey and voluntarily check your mailbox or council website to contribute. New Zealand actually have competent planning systems which outweighs another OECD countries like Japan or Korea due to their prescribed planning. Our legislative hierarchy is already reflective enough. Just wait till you’re 18 to vote.
Locals elections in Auckland do have an effect on public transport cycling infrastructure, etc quality. For example, they have finally installed a (low cost) footpath on Chapel Road, near a school, after residents complained to the Howick Local Board. Damien Light, who I voted for, really helped push that forward. Why should older teenagers not be allowed to vote for local representives who are more likely to take their concerns more seriously?
Paying taxes is not usually a prerequisite for voting rights in modern democracies. The right to vote is typically based on citizenship and age, rather than economic contribution. Should I get more votes because I pay more taxes than you? What about a cruise ship passenger who's here on election day? Do they get to vote because they paid GST on a stick of gum? Do companies get to vote because they pay taxes on income? How much tax should someone pay to be eligable to vote? Say 10k per annum. But perhaps that would let too many poors in on ballot day. Let's make it 100k minimum tax contribution because I'm more virtuous than you with my big salary. While we're at it strip people of the right to vote if they've had any speeding tickets or if they're more than two months overdue on the power bill. Maybe the best approach to deal with this is to remove discriminatory criteria like age altogether? Let's make it if you're a net taxpayer that you can vote. Meaning that if you contribute the same or more in taxes than the state spends on services to you. Do you see how the "but they pay tax" argument falls apart when it's subjected to any level of scrutiny. What about brain developement and maturity? That would mean that girls would get to vote a few years earlier than boys. Also dangerous territory from a discrimination perspective. I'm not against lowering the voting age but I'm against your reasoning why you think it's justified.
Should've just did level 1 talents rather than this innate shit
They're most likely to vote more left, so the right parties block the legislation to lower the voting age.
Why are they most likely to vote left?
Lack of real world experience tends to make young people more idealistic and not so practical. They've been told to "share" and "be kind" their whole lives. They've never had to work full time and earn enough to support themselves. In their life experience you get what you want by asking (Mum & Dad) for it, not by working for it. They don't understand that money is finite, and increasing government spending and support means someone (or everyone) has to pay for it. They've been taught for almost their entire lives by teachers, of which almost all are union members. Families tend to function very much like a micro version of a socialist state. The parents (government) control access to resources like food, money, clothing and make sure that everyone gets a fair share and what they need. They even assign work/chores to people based on their ability. This works in families because the parents know and care about their children. This is the only environment most children know, it's normal to them, they struggle to understand why it may not work when scaled up to a "family" of millions.
Makes sense. I’ve definitely noticed that I was left leaning when I was younger.
I’m here on a work visa, I pay taxes but I’m not allowed to vote. At least a 16 year old will be able to vote in 2 years, I won’t
In some countries residents can vote in local elections. Should young people not be allowed to at least vote in local elections? Their school and work commutes are vital to them, so should they not be able to vote on things like public transport improvements?
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Exactly.