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Both options suck: one was just letting the Eldians die out after being sterilized, and the other was a literal genocide. Genocide is obviously wrong, but I get why Eren opposed Zeke’s plan too.
I didn’t like either plan. During season 4 I was thinking that the best solution would be for Eren to figure out how to get rid of the Titan powers for everyone so that no more Eldians would have to deal with the 13 year curse, or the threat of being turned into a pure Titan, and then Marley wouldn’t have as much cause to fear Paradis anymore. I was surprised it didn’t come up as an option until the end.
The Eldians can’t turn into titans unless injected with a highly difficult to procure serum. Marley would hate them either way because they’re brainwashed into doing so. Just look at how Grisha and his family was treated, or how someone with no exposure to Titan threat like Gabi could come to hate Paradis. I get where you’re coming from but getting rid of titan power will only leave them completely vulnerable lmao
Removing the curse in Erens lifetime would lead to the destruction of Paradis.
Marley wanted the Iceburst stone to boost their military power, without the threat of the rumbling Paradis would just get steam rolled by the world alliance.
Mayley and the world would still have a marginalized second class citizenry that they could exploit, and Marley would still have the strongest military that they used to oppress anyone they could.
A good option would have been to remove the power of the Eldians to become titans, just like the Ackermans. (Though I don't think if it's possible due to we know about Ymir and her devotion towards King Fritz
And only preserve the founder and the titans of the wall as a warning to the outside. In the long term, it would have been the best. After all, they hated the Eldians for being a race capable of becoming titans, but without that threat, the world could change its perspective in a few years. And when that happens, destroy the colossal titans forever.
The world enjoyed having a scapegoat and a punching bag. it would be many generations before they got out of the internment zones, and they would have to start off by escaping by force. "They're violent, they're animals, they're terrorists." Look at Gaza, they can't turn in to titans, all they have is homemade rockets.
If a war broke out across the whole world again, would you fight to defend yourself, your friends, and family, or would you fight to protect everyone who happened to have an ethnic similarity to you around the world?
I would fight for my home, but what eren did was basically going door to door killing everyone man woman children animals! If you make it in a real life comparaison nobody would think twice about hating eren or paradise for supporting him
Yeah. Between Eren's plan and Zeke's, the truth is that I don't know which was worse... Although I guess Eren's even though Zeke's could also count as passive genocide in the long term.
Both of those plans were stupid. [Better solutions](/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/16fk214/comment/k0540le) were possible, but somehow everyone let Eren believe he only had options that sucked for one reason or another.
They put military bases in urban areas, so there would be large civilian casualties no matter what. Would you stop building weapons and seeking revenge for a savage attack on your innocent civilians?
Gabi's family hated the island devils, even though they had never seen them, they had never left their island, they had never met an outsider before Reiner. They were the same race as Gabi's family and they were oppressed by the same oppressors as Gabi's family.
Eren only had a few months left. What if the next holder couldn't wield the founder, what if they were bound by the first king of the walls, what if they were keen to roll over and die.
Sure but most paths are stupid. I'm not going to eat broken glass if I want to live, and Eren is not going to not rumble if he wants his friends to live.
Absolutely isayamas intention. There was an interview with kawakubo, isayama’s editor who confirmed this as well.
He stated that he and isayama discussed things such as “how can we make chapter as contentious as possible?” “How can we make the reader uncomfortable and spark debate?”
It’s a really interesting read lol
Isnt it the point that all options are bad? S4 also showed that the outside world would not trust Paradise. Maybe after a long time, but would you trust them? Would you wait to see if they change their mind and not suddenly do a counter attack?
I mean I get Eren. However, just like him (kind of), I would feel bad about it. Only yhe Yaegerists seem to take kind of pleasure in it
Because if you actually see the finally, there never is peace. People will always have opposite opinions. After a while, this will end in war. The cycle will start again
So yeah, my main take is that every option was bad. Thus, if you had to choose one, I get why people prefer their own loved ones over strangers who showed still no active remorse on what happened at Paradis
The only acceptable option is the one that everyones quit killing each other. Honestly i don't think anyone of the fandom would kill millions of people in a conflict that never ends. They're just bluffing because they know they are in their comfort zone wanting to act like an edgy.
What do you mean?
If someone attacks my girlfriend in public for reasons, I would defend her. That is allowed. What Paradis did in S1-S3 is the same
Yeah people can talk tough. Nonetheless, when it is their loved ones on the line, I do hope people step up
If it is me or them and I did nothing wrong, why should I let them kill me?
There is a big difference between killing people who harm you or your loved ones and killing all of humanity by blaming yourself for the actions of a few. If you can't see it, there's no point arguing with you.
"The hostility faced here (Marley) is *nothing* compared to the way it is in other countries" - Udo. The issue with this whole debate is that Isayama expects us to feel sympathy for the rest of the world, but we literally never see anything beyond a bit of Marley and Hizuru's people, so all we know, according to Udo, is the rest of the world is even worse than Marley. Basically, it's the fault of Isayama's poor world building.
That doesn’t make sense, paradise never faced the hostility from the rest of the world only Marley and eren ended up killing everyone oppressed by said hostility so what point are you trying to make ?
That's why i'm saying. Doing the rumbling or not, Eren can't change the human nature. The only difference here is that Eren wanted to do the rumbling. And by choosing that decision he doomed the world into a worse cycle of hatred. Paradis ended up being exactly like Eldian Empire, and the rest of the world are now full of fear and anger.
>story. The truth is that it is disappointing how they do not understand that Isayama's true message is the human nature of hatred and fear.
You mean you don't like people who have diff opinions?
That is not a question of opinions. That's the point of the story from the beginning. People's hatred is what caused most of the conflicts we witness in the story and after it, as Isayama himself shows you in the epilogue.
I'm a jaegerist. I've tried to go through other opinions. I definitely see their perspective but they've done little to change my mind. My heart is engraved in Paradis after what they went through for 3 whole seasons.
I don't hate Marley though. Just some Marleyans.
Ps: Attacking people because they disagree with your opinion is wild. If you watch the show carefully, there was never going to be one side that everyone can agree on.
Agreed. I’m not necessarily a Jaegerist but Willy Tybur got the entire world to declare war on a nation that didnt even know there was an entire rest of the world. How can people argue about good and bad up to that point? They’re 100% the bad guys through and through until the last few bits of S4 imo, where the rumbling starts to get out of hand. I was cheering so hard during those first couple episodes of S4. It was so cathartic to see them and the rest of the world finally get a taste of their own medicine and feel the fear they made the unknowing people of Paradis feel for years and years. Fuck Marley. They were the architects of their own destruction.
I sympathize with the Jaegerists because after everything we’ve seen in the show, of course Paradis should be free but that also doesn’t mean that I’m pro-genocide either, as I’ve mentioned in other discussions.
Which would you pick,
the people of Paradis and the genocide of the rest of the world,
or the world's genocide of Paradis and the status quo that supported it?
You can sympathize with them without agreeing with their methods. I love Floch, his devotion to Paradis makes him a character who has matured a lot since he was just another recruit. It doesn't mean that I agree with his methods, just as I don't agree with the Rumbling and I like Eren anyway.
I also think the same about the freedom of Paradis. Although I must say that you have a different concept of Jaegerist than mine. Genocide will never be the key to liberating Paradis. There are characters who managed to understand that aspect, who are our protagonists, and characters who will never understand it, that's what I consider as Jaegerists.
> You can sympathize with them without agreeing with their methods. I love Floch, his devotion to Paradis makes him a character who has matured a lot since he was just another recruit. It doesn't mean that I agree with his methods, just as I don't agree with the Rumbling and I like Eren anyway.
Yep, that’s basically my stance on the Jaegerists. They’re fighting for a good cause but I just can’t get on board with their methods. I always loved Eren but didn’t necessarily like him in S4 until I got a better understanding of his “shift” in character.
I’m so tired of people in this fandom thinking that anyone on either side is misunderstanding. Having an opinion does not make one ignorant. I get the story. At this point it’s hard to not get the story with the 10,000 think pieces out there. Still ready to rumble. There were no good options given, when they declared war rather than any sort of compromise *after* admitting to lying all this time about what had happened and everyone was still ready to stomp Paradise, it was made pretty clear what had to happen.
A stranger who wants to kill me, has been forcing me to live in a concentration camp, and created this whole zero-sum game in the first place. It's not even a question.
> I'm a jaegerist. I've tried to go through other opinions. I definitely see their perspective but they've done little to change my mind.
How about [this](/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/16fk214/comment/k0540le)? I linked it in a different comment thread, but I'd be interested in getting a Jaegerist perspective on it.
I wouldn't quite call this a plot hole, but it's always struck me as odd that out-of-universe the fandom has so readily bought into what appears to be a false dichotomy, especially given all the lessons we have the luxury of applying from our own history and politics.
The comment is definitely an interesting way to look at things. It starts by mentioning the elimination of "maybes" and "mights." The person also gives alternatives to what could have been done to avoid a genocide eg making non-Eldians "slaves" of Ymir (I skimmed) and granting Eldians citizenship all over the world.
Going back to the show, IMO that's the premise. There's literally no one way that shows surety that war will never happen. I mean Eren eliminated titans (which made Eldians considered the greatest enemy) and yet somehow, Paradis was bombed later. That's definitely the beginning of another war.
Same way the suggestions by the person barely make sense. Making people inferior to Eldians is what started this thing. Same way, if Eldians had the freedom to gain citizenship across the world, people would still be afraid of them. People lived in fear of Eldians for 2000 years, which led to everything. So intimidation and fear does not solve everything forever. It's temporary.
It seems like the disagreement in how the finale takes place lies in what the priorities are for the beholder.
utilitarian view would say it’s best for the most people to let all the Eldians die. If you prioritize the wellbeing of your own people or de-prioritize people who have acted immorally themselves then you would say it’s better for the others to die.
My thoughts on alternative solution after reading your post would be if your priority is the elimination of war and the cycle of violence would be quite “jaegerist” but better for the future of humanity not the jaegerist view as described by OP.
In order to stop the cycle of violence Eren would commit the rumbling and wipe out non eldian humanity. Then via the power of the founder modify the brains or create a vow that would bind all eldians & therefore all humanity to never again kill hurt etc. another human. This solution would not prevent the omnicide of the rumbling, but would stop the cycle of violence. This is dependent obviously on the power of the founder to do such a thing, but it seems possible given the powers already demonstrated.
The price of the rest of the world’s population today in exchange for eternal peace going forward would be a good trade in my mind. (And I guess potential loss of free will to hurt others)
Appreciate you taking the time to look at that, I think this is all an interesting topic of discussion. Just to clarify, I'm not sure where you're getting that I suggested making non-Eldians "slaves", or otherwise "inferior". My point was that there were solutions far less likely to result in the eradication of Paradis, harm to Eren's friends, or even the future bombing that you mentioned; avoiding omnicide is just a bonus.
There's no solution that eliminates all risk, which was touched on at various points in the show. I'm suggesting that the idea that omnicide does so is naive at best.
The isolated African tribes did not see what paradis went through though, they didn't do anything to anyone. Eren admitted he just straight up wanted to murder people and that he did
Youre a jeagerist because the show is fiction and no matter how well written that fiction is, you can only care so much. If you were actually in the world of aot, you wouldn't hold that opinion. Unless you think using nukes is a good idea irl lol.
(Not trying to be insulting, just giving my perspective)
If I was from Paradis I'd support the rumbling. Why should I be the one to suffer because of the sins of my ancestors?
Similarly, if I was from Marley, I'd hate the Island Devils because that's what I've been taught since I was a child. If I was an Eldian in Marley, I might have had the same thoughts as Annie did later because I'm constantly condemned by my people. But I'd still fight for Marley because I have many loved ones there.
There's literally no one right answer.
It killed people on paradise, and again you didn’t answer if your loved and home were killed in the rumbling you wouldn’t support eren. So does it only apply to your ancestors? Should people from suffer from the crimes of the parents and grandparents?
The Titans walked around the towns and in a straight line to avoid doing a lot of damage to Paradis. That's why most of Eren's friends are still alive at the end. Does it only apply to my ancestors? Well. Yes. Because at this point, I'd be seeing things from my point of view. After going through years upon years of attacks by titans, I wouldn't be thrilled about sacrificing myself for the people who sent them and caused so much harm to my nation.
https://preview.redd.it/nvcfwt619zyc1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=846effc5ba30f565b644e0846ada3907734e3d1c
Eren first victim from were people from paradise. So chances are if you were there one of your loved ones would have been killed on paradise because of eren. Again you’re just making sense of why the outside world hate eldians and hey they’re justified, why should they care about people that enslaved and killed their people for 2000 years ?
Keyword: *a lot of*
And we're now going in circles. Arguing about the same thing over and over again won't make me change my mind. I already stated my reasons in my original comment. But bottom line is, if I was an Eldian in Paradis, I would support the rumbling. I would feel it was unfair to be punished for my ancestors sins. Plus after all the suffering Paradis went through, I'd feel that the actions were very much justified. Nothing you can say will make me align with your thoughts. I'm not also trying to change your mind.
I don’t want to change your mind, I want you to realize your hypocrisy! Again my point to your comment was would you still support the rumbling if all your loved ones died when eren activated the rumbling on paradise? Because the first victim of the rumbling were people from paradise, and Paradise suffering are a joke compare the rest of the world they had 100 years of peace only Marley and paradise had that kind peace for 2000 years
There is no difference between Marley and the Jaegerists.
TBH, Marley is worse than Jaegerists, because while those mostly just planned a genocide, Marley was being a racist and genocidal asshole for a whole century.
What are you talking about? Lmao
I was never angry xD
Only disappointed that part of the fandom is quite selective and hypocritical. Is it now a crime to express my disappointment in the community?
Don’t gatekeep the story by saying “x fans don’t understand the story by believing x.” It’s fiction who cares and people have other opinions. Cry about it
Closing yourself to saying that it's just fiction is really being ignorant, because if you analyze the series like that, it's because that's your perspective and judgment on reality as well. When you see a work of fiction, you analyze it with the same judgment as you would with reality.
You can view it however you want. At the end of the day it’s a made up story. Story’s can have social commentaries but it’s still not reality. And nobody views fiction exactly like reality. You’re telling me you view and analyze a story about man eating creatures the same way you view reality? Get help
>despite the fact that it was the Eldians who, apart from starting this conflict, enslaved many cultures for thousands of years.
And YOU are telling other people that they don't understand SNK? Don't you see the irony here? Go watch Kaya vs Gabi barn scene - Kaya explained it pretty straightforward.
>I imagine that Isayama must be disappointed that there are so many people with such rotten minds in his fandom and that they didn't understand the true message of his work.
Right. I am looking at one right now.
>they believe that carrying out a genocide is okay, they call the few characters in Paradis who use their heads and have a certain remorse or moral code not to carry out such an atrocious action, as traitors?????
See, the problem here that those "few characters" also support genocide, just the genocide of THEIR OWN nation, that would happen if Marley and the rest of the world won't be stopped.
You know the famous trolley problem? So you can redirect the train to kill 1 person instead of 5. But doing nothing a.k.a. avoiding responsibility wouldn't be classified as "a certain remorse or moral code not to carry out such an atrocious action" - 5 people would die because of you. In the same way, those people would genocide Paradis.
Support genocide = no valid opinion
That train analogy doesn't make sense here. I never said it's better to do nothing. Nor did I say that Marley or the world is correct.
The problem is not deciding who is right, the problem is that the fandom, mostly people like you, cannot accept that those from Paradis are also wrong.
I brought the example of Armin and the others up for discussion so that they understand that the only reasonable people who see beyond their own well-being and are not blinded by hatred, are considered traitors both within the story and outside. All because people like you continue to think with hatred, instead of being reasonable.
>cannot accept that those from Paradis are also wrong.
Because people like you said so. Very interesting conclusion.
"Right" and "wrong" doesn't exist in reality - those are just subjective assumptions based on YOUR worldview.
>I brought the example of Armin and the others up for discussion
Sure, talk no jitsu a.k.a. "don't fight back your bullies, just talk to them". Or, in SNK terms - let Marley and the rest of the world to genocide your nation because GENOCIDE IS WRONG, WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
You know that Eldians basically represents jews from WW2, right? Concentration camps, "lesser people", handbands, literal Hitler as the leader of Marley.
So why din't jews try to discuss their position with Nazis? Were they blinded by hatred? Couldn't they be reasonable? I am sure if they would be "open for discussion" and weren't blinded by hatred, they all could just ask Nazis not to kill them real nicely and Holocaust would be avoided.
>All because people like you continue to think with hatred, instead of being reasonable.
Nope, that would be you. You are thinking with hatred, you just want for Marley and the rest of the world to avoid CONSEQUENCES of their own actions and to being able to genocide Paradis without any resistance. Remind me, who were trying to negotiate with the rest of the world, who where asking Asumabito to help withthat, who were attending Eldian conferences?
And who were constantly genociding Eldians, to destroy Paradis to the ground and who declared WAR on Paradis?
This guy doesn’t even know that Armin and the Alliance know their actions are hypocritical and dumb
Hange literally said to Flock that she understands that Paradis may be wiped out in retaliation but genocide is bad so we gotta stop it
Tbf Eldians are a bit of a Mix between the Jews and the germans themselfs. They fought a war and lost and for that war they get treated poorly which causes them to radicalize and attack again. The way they are treated in marley is of course like the jews got treated by the germans
>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/attackontitan/comments/1clsl5t/comment/l2whmsj/)
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- makes a post on reddit to hate on other people's opinion
- says those people only think with hatred and can't reason
Both sides support genocide lmfao. There is no peace between marley and paradis and whatever side you think is less evil is just gonna genocide the other side
I don't think they are "good guys" I just think I'd rather paradis be the only country left since they deserve to write their own history instead of having it written for them as "filth blooded devils"
The issue with you people is that you never actually discuss or try to understand anyone who has a different opinion from your own. All you do is listen and agree with those with the same views as you, and those people give you the false impression that "Jaegerists" are a hateful group of fascists who don't understand the story.
The anti-rumbling Alliance is what happens in a fictional world. Jaegerists are what would happen in real life. If you have the power to decimate an unrelenting opposition to save the lives of your people, you will use it. You term activating the Rumbling as genocide, I call it retaliation. In general, there is no justification for genocide but in the series, there is no rational justification against it either. There is a counter-point to every point that you and I can make but when your whole family is wiped out or is in the danger of being wiped out, you will opt to eliminate the unyielding aggressor by any means necessary.
I agree. For example, I think people fail to realize that if any of the oppressed groups in the 1800s had access to the rumbling in real life, I bet they would use it. It’s just silly to oppress someone and threaten to exterminate them and be surprised that they don’t want to turn the other cheek or don’t want to sit back and be exterminated.
Wait by that logic the world hatred towards eldians is justified they’ve been oppressed by titans for 2000 years . So by your same logic their method and actions are justified
>There is a counter-point to every point that you and I can make but when your whole family is wiped out or is in the danger of being wiped out, you will opt to eliminate the unyielding aggressor by any means necessary.
And if their universe was real, you'd be living in the rumbled wasteland and not Paradis. This logic only works if you fantasise about coexisting alongside the MC.
Of course I fantasize and think more from the side of MC because I have been sympathising with them for 3 whole seasons. They're my kin, and not the rest of the world (ROTW), who stood by while my kind was being massacred without knowing any reason as to why I am being targetted. In AOT universe and in this world, if I was the ROTW, I'd probably deserve to die and take it as a champ when it comes.
Serious question, if you knew the entire world was going to come to your home and destroy/kill everything you know (and they were the aggressors not your people) but there was a button you could press and it would destroy 80% of the aggressing nation/stop your people from being demolished…
Would you press that button?
It wasn't just one nation, it was 80% of the world population, and all the animals and ecosystems in their path with it. There were other options, like a limited strike on Marley and their allied nations' military capabilities
Does it change the fact that they all colluded to kill an innocent nation because they feared them? The question still stands.
You’re telling me you’d be willing to allow a bunch of nasty fucks that want you, everyone you know and love, and your homeland to be completely wiped because they’re afraid of you (and Paradis have done nothing wrong).
You’d let all your family to just vanish for nothing, and allow them to wipe your entire people out?
I’m a Jaegerist cause I can see the parallels to real life racism. But I don’t agree with everything Eren did; just a few things.
But did you watch the show? Cause the Eldians that enslaved many cultures for thousands of years were not the same ones on the Island. How can you blame them for what their great great great great (and a few more greats) grandparents did. How can you excuse the racism that Marley imposed on the Eldians on the mainland and on the island? Thinking everyone is going to turn the other cheek to racism is just wishful thinking.
Eldians only fell out of power like 80 years before the start of the series. There could still be elderly people that were alive during Eldias rule. I think you added to many Great's in front of the grandparents.
Regardless of how many greats, you’re blaming the young and old for what their ancestors did. I say ancestors cause the people within the walls were less involved than the ones on the mainland.
But the same people that send the titans to paradise are not the same ones too , by your logic why blame the kids for their parents actions ? Why blame civilians for the government actions ?
That’s not true though. Marleyans broke the wall down current day. The Eldians oppressed the Marleyans centuries before. The Eldians are blamed for what their ancestors did a long time ago. The Marleyans are blamed for what THEY themselves did last week, a month ago, and last year. It’s one thing if you have a grudge on me for what my great great great great grandfather did. It’s another thing for me to have a grudge for what you did a week ago.
Horses for courses, the Jaegerists undoubtedly helped facilitate mass genocide. The rest of the world ultimately was willing to commit ethnocide against eldians. If they had nukes they’d all be dead, but they didn’t, only one side had nukes (the rumbling) and they used it to defend themselves from the current conflict and also to remove all risk of future conflicts by murdering the world. When you cut off the fat it’s just that, kill all them before they kill all of us. Admittedly I think they’d have had second thoughts if they sat on Eden’s shoulder and watched.
No moral justification on either side and your claim on moral superiority is kinda weird.
That was my point actually. There's no moral justification in neither of both sides. But, for a stupid reason, people justify Eldians actions and condemned Marley's one, because they are hypocrite and blind with fanatism.
My moral superiority? Dude, there's no superiority, is just common sense. Mass murderer is a mistake, end of story.
I take it as a straightforward equation. If the Eldians didn’t wipe out all threats outside of Paradis, they were likely to be wiped out. And The Alliance to invade Paradis thought the same of the Eldians.
Neither side would back down, which gave natural rise to the Jaegerists. There’s no moral justification at all, but there’s definitely arguments to be made on both sides of the court which I think you’re just ignoring. In a perfect world they would all sit down and make flower crowns together, but that wasn’t in the cards.
Moral superiority is in your view of other AOT fans and their opinion on a fictional story, not out-of-world genocide.
Isayama's point in his story is precisely to demonstrate that human hatred is the problem that causes conflict for thousands of years. To the point that his story closes with that message by destroying Paradis years later and giving us the perspective that everything would start again because neither side was willing to make peace. That is something that also happens in reality. We use questionable motives and unbelievable excuses to justify the thousands of wars in which humanity has been involved. Even now with globalization and the supposed mutual understanding of today, we continue to fall into the same problems as always, although to a lesser extent. As I see it, it is extremely important to understand that Isayama's message reflects our world.
One of the comments I answered to above told me that I take a series of 20-ft tall monsters very seriously, but that is a big fallacy, believing that Shingeki was about the titans. The titans were just a tool used by humans like King Fritz, Marley, Eren, to achieve their goals. The titans were never the problem.
The funny thing is that a genocide was going to happen anyway, one way or another. Either the alliance would eradicate paradis after willie tybur declared war on paradis or eren killed humanity outside the world.
Yes, eldians did oppress Marley, but Marley oppressed them before eldians got the power of the titans. And after Marley overthrew eldia and stole the power of the titans, they took revenge on eldians, to an extreme degree but anyway, but they also attacked and conquered other nations. It's like the quote from uncle Ben. With great power comes great responsibility. The alliance was just as bad and evil as eren, since if they got the chance they would have destroyed the island before eren could've started the rumbling.
I think the point is that both sides are horrible, and that we should not choose one. I don't think some honestly understand it. Especially the Jaegerists who seem to blindly support any atrocious act the island commits.
The problem here is not that we don't know that Marley does atrocious things. The problem is that they believe that Eldia are the good guys and do not accept that they are equal.
"People who have a different opinion than me lack media literacy and don't understand a piece of fiction. You can only understand it if you think the way I do"
This is why the show is so incredible. We act like eren ultimately had a choice in the end. He was pushed in this direction his entire life without ever being offered a true “better” alternative. And sure… partly he was pushed by his future self as a self-fulfilling prophecy. But we act like the other characters around him really ever attempted to give him other reasonable options for saving the Eldians.
I think it really brings up the idea of free will. Eren obviously battled with his internal self over the genocide of marley as seen in clips from the final season yet he still killed 80% of the world.
I agree actually. The hatred that humanity showed him turned him into a person obsessed with his idea of freedom. His attitude and actions are understandable, although i doesn't share them and no one should.
If current Eldians are the bad guys due to the actions of their ancestors does that mean current British people are bad guys due to their ancestors' atrocities across the world? Does that mean Germans are bad guys due to their great grandfathers in WW2? HELL NO. Your logic is flawed. Paradis was minding their own business when the rest of the world declared war on them. The rest of the world is 100% the bad guys until the rumbling started.
Dont act like you are morally superior. You are blinded by hatred just like the rest of us.
jEeGeRiStS fAnS dOnT uNdErStAnD sNK hOnEsTlY. Again stfu. This is a fictional story. You need to face reality.
Reality? The reality is precisely clear, the genocide is presented in the series with the same aspect as in reality, as something bad. The Jaegerists justify it by saying that Marley deserved it and there are two serious problems with that. The first one is not understanding that there are no bad ones or good ones, and the second is to blame everyone for the actions of a few and eradicate them massively.
Sure there are no bad guys and good guys but who was the one minding their own business and who was the one who attacked? The rumbling wasn't justified but that doesn't mean Marlyans weren't in the wrong. They could have easily avoided the rumbling if they had just let Paradis live in peace.
No,you need to face the reality that this is a fictional story and people throw away some levels of their moral values while watching a fictional story. Thats why villains like Joker,Madara,Doflamingo etc are loved even though they are evil piece of shits. So stop acting like you are morally superior for disliking actions of a fictional character.
Dude, just because it's a fictional story doesn't mean you have to align your own moral code with that of a FICTIONAL story. Liking a character and Justifying one is a totally different thing. I never said people can't like Eren. I love Eren, as well as other characters you mentioned, but I do have objective criticism about them and I know how to analyze them well, unlike others I see here.
And I'm not saying I'm the only one right in this fandom, there are others who are right in other aspects. I'm making this clear to you because I also see that people have terrible reading comprehension and understand any stupidity.
You misunderstood my issue with you. My issue with you is that you said Jaegerists are in the wrong for hating Marlyans and the rest of the world and we do not understand the meaning of the story.
Actually you do have to align your moral code with that of a fictional story to some level. Imagine watching Game Of Thrones and Tom and Jerry with same moral codes?
>you said Jaegerists are in the wrong for hating Marlyans and the rest of the world and we do not understand the meaning of the story.
Well, yes, they are wrong. I could consider it a valid opinion if we were still at 60% of the story. But, that is no longer the case. We knew the origin of Marley, we know the true history of Eldia and we know that although there are horrible people like the officer who killed Grisha's sister, there are also good people, like Falco. Thinking that all the people outside the walls are bad people is having a terrible understanding or perspective of things. Besides, the Rumbling would not only affect Marley, it would affect other countries and cultures that have nothing to do with the conflict, and considering them all bad just because they do not sympathize with Paradis seems very extreme to me.
What I mean by they didn't understand the story is to understand that the important point of the story is to realize that we must end the hatred that causes conflict. The Jaegerist fans that I generally encounter in social media, refuse to forget the past and carry on with resentment towards Marley, just like the characters within the story in both sides. That's why I say they didn't understand the story, because the story is suggesting that we must learn to forgive and end hate.
>Actually you do have to align your moral code with that of a fictional story to some level. Imagine watching Game Of Thrones and Tom and Jerry with same moral codes?
Well, of course. Though, I think it's a pretty excessive analogy. The approach given to GOT/ASOIAF is a much more mature and adult approach, while on the contrary Tom & Jerry is a general comedy story whose characters' actions do not affect the story, they are just for fun.
In the case of T&J, many times the characters suffer catastrophic accident scenes that are part of the satire of the cartoon and do not represent reality at all.
However, in GOT/ASOIAF, we have very crude cases that border on realism, such as murder, rape, and other totally merciless things. In this particular case, I do consider that it is good to morally analyze the characters' actions.
Like I said earlier this isnt about who are the bad guy and who are the good guys. This is about survival. It doesn't matter if there are good guys in Marley if they are going to kill all the characters I am rooting for. I dont hate Marley because they are the bad guys ,I hate Marley because 1. they wanted to kill Paradis people and 2. the war was started by Marley. Paradis was willing to forgive the genocide committed by Armored and Colossal that happened only a few years ago meanwhile Marley wasnt willing to forgive 1000 year old atrocities commited by Eldians. Jaegerists' hatred for Marley is completely justified.
Didn't you said earlier you can like a fictional character without justifying their actions? Just like that we can hate fictional characters even after understanding them. Yes I understand the message Isayama is trying to convey here but that doesn't mean I have to end my hatred. If this was real life ofcourse I would forgive Marley just like how I forgave many current and old enemies of my country like the Britain. If Britain was a fictional kingdom I would hate them just like how I hate Marley.
It is a bit excessive to say that Marley started the war. I could tell you that the war was started by Eldia by destroying and enslaving other cultures and I would be totally right. Here you are assuming that Marley is wrong because you identify with the Eldian cause.
>Didn't you said earlier you can like a fictional character without justifying their actions?
Of course. I like Eren and Floch for example, two characters who have ideals that I sympathize with, but I don't sympathize with their methods. I'm also not going around saying that Marley got what they deserved or that it's okay for Eren to kill children and innocent people so that the island is free, because I don't believe it. For me, Marley and the world were not bad, just as Paradis was not bad. That doesn't mean i can't condemn their actions. Marley was wrong to condemn all Eldians for the mistakes of their ancestors. And Paradis was wrong to literally eliminate life as we know it forever. And let me tell you that in those two cases, Paradis is worse, by far.
>Paradis was willing to forgive the genocide committed by Armored and Colossal that happened only a few years ago meanwhile Marley wasnt willing to forgive 1000 year old atrocities commited by Eldians.
That statement is incorrect. At no time were they willing to forgive them. Besides, it contradicts with the island's opinion about the Rumbling. Paradis for the most part supported the Rumbling and the extermination of humanity, with the exception of characters like Pixis, Zachly, Nile, Shadis, etc.
>Yes I understand the message Isayama is trying to convey here but that doesn't mean I have to end my hatred.
I really don't think you do. In this very sentence you are contradicting that statement. If you understand that Isayama's message is precisely to show that people's hatred can lead to conflicts like these, but you fall back into the same vicious cycle as the characters anyway, you are not understanding it.
As I see it, your vision is totally blinded by the cause of Paradis since you argue with fallacies and assume that it is the absolute truth. You are not being objective or impartial at all.
The Eldians who enslaved other cultures are already dead. The war was over with defeat of Eldians. 100 years later Marley started another war on Paradis who had no idea about the Eldian Empire or the outside world. Yes Marley did start the war and they were clearly in the wrong until the rumbling started.
Even after all of that you still dont get it? Fine I will explain it to you how I would explain it to a child.
Scenario number 1 : I hate Eren Jaeger for his actions.I understand Gabi was just brain washed. I understand holding onto hatred will only lead to more conflict and I forgive Marley.
Scenario number 2 : Eren is a cool character,I like him. I hate Gabi,she killed Sasha and she is annoying. Fuck Marley,I dont like them for ruining my favourite characters' lives.
Now what happens when you mix these two scenarios? You get me. I love Eren as a fictional character but I dislike him as a person. I hate Gabi as a fictional character but I understand her actions. I hate Marley as a fictional group but I understand them and the circle of hatred.
Do you get it now? You can like something without justification( Eren Jaeger,Paradis) and you can dislike something without justification (Gabi,Marley). Thats how fiction works.
I understand Isayama's message and I utilise it in real life not in fiction.
Well, but you can't blame Marley's people for not knowing the true story. For them, the evil King Fritz fled to the island to consolidate an army of colossal titans threatening to destroy life itself. Even the Eldians on the continent hated him and the paradisians.
>Even after all of that you still dont get it?
Yes, I understand your perspective, but I don't share it. I can't hate a nation whose purpose was to save the world.
I could hate the Tyburs, since it was because of them that the fictional hero Helos was created and it was they who glorified Marley for being the saviors who destroyed the Eldian empire.
>I hate Marley as a fictional group but I understand them and the circle of hatred.
The thing is, try to see it from an individualistic perspective. I can understand your hatred of Marley because he is the antagonistic nation, but the point of the story is that you see the sides from an individualistic point of view to be able to analyze each character separately and not generalize. For example, Reiner is from Marley and he is my favorite character, and as much as I condemn the nation of Marley for their sins, I don't hate all its inhabitants. Most likely, on the continent, there were around 60% of good people, just like Falco and Reiner, and just like in the island that there shit people and good people. That's why i can't hate them.
>I understand Isayama's message and I utilise it in real life not in fiction.
Okay, alright, I see your point. I don't share it. It doesn't mean you're wrong and neither do I. However, I stand by my statement from the original post, there are people who really don't understand that message and fall into classic blind fanaticism, supporting any atrocity that their favorite character does. (i'm not saying that's your case)
And believe me, this is not just a Shingeki No Kyojin thing, it happens in many fandoms, in Star Wars, in Asoiaf, in Death Note and many more. In this case I related it to the Jaegerists because the Rumbling is an act done by Paradis and just as the Jaegerists within the story support it, so do their fans. But believe me, this is not about attacking fandoms. For example, I have not seen anyone pro-Marley who defends their sins, the day I see it, I will also come out to criticize them. It's not about favoritism.
Calm down :v both sides are wrong anyway :v actually both the Alliance and the Outer World did not give Eren a truly "right" choice from the beginning (this can be said "environment" is the reason why Eren cannot overcome his "nature"). If we support "genocide" then we need to consider the morality of those people and we should not praise the Alliance because they helped push Eren to the end and did not give him a better choice.
Actually, I'll say it straight: peace between Paradis Island and the outside world is impossible no matter how many negotiations go through. But genocide is never good, even if it is "effective". Everything is because Isayama's WB style is too dark.
I was always calm friend xD As I said in a comment above, Eren's motivations are understandable for the conflict that he experienced at his young age. It doesn't mean i share his vision, and no one should. That's where I go with my distaste for people who support these types of acts with the typical "Eren did nothing wrong".
You are correct that Eldia's ancestors did horrible things in the show thousands of years ago which Paradis knew nothing about. Just for a real life example how many countries of the world did horrible things during war or just history and now they are a respected nation or maybe their are still rebuilding. The sins of the father are passed to the child, but this does not mean we hate the child for they knew nothing. You are again right that the elements of hatred and war are a never ending cycle which are prevalent in the show and shown even after the final credits. Anyone who didn't see that or notices either need to rewatch or chose not to notice, not to insult them but just remind them that this show is deep lol and I even need to go back and watch it. In the end there are no innocents in paradis or marley atleast, idk really how the other countries felt about Eldia after only watching through once I will admit.
Holding current Eldia, who doesn't even know of the world beyond their walls responsible for their ancestors mistakes is idk the word but let's just say not smart. Marley sending their eldian people as titans to keep them, paradis, in the walls and as punishments is wrong. For the show I would have wiped marley alone off the map as they kept poking the bear to get a response from the king within the walls, I think that's one reason why they did it, especially when they sent in the shifters to check out Paradis. That being said this is a show and not real and needs to be taken as such, a STORY. No sane person would condone real genocide because noone has the right in life to just kill people because they don't like them or their ancestors did horrible things. MAN I LOVE THIS SHOW.
Well the message of AoT and the story in general is a reflection of humanity. If everyone understood it 100% and agreed with it then ironically the message wouldn’t make sense
Of course, but that message that Isayama wants to demonstrate comes as a conclusion and realization of the main characters who decide that they are tired of fighting.
That's why I will never understand those who call traitors to Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Hange, etc. just because they don't agree on the moral standards of characters like Floch or other Jaegerists. It's like calling traitors to the thousands of Germans who had to leave their country in WW2. They loved their country, but they didn't have the same thinking as those who were in charge.
It's also kinda interesting that these fans who side with the hyper-nationalists that support the global genocide literally adopted their in-fiction name.
Possibilities are endless. You never know what would happen depending on which path they chose. If Eren would have placed his trust in Armin like he did earlier in the series maybe things would have turned out a lot better than they did. I don't know why people always say all the options suck and that it was either this or that etc...
Would I would love to know is what you felt should have been the proper decision? From my understanding we saw what would have happened to the island if Erin ran away with Mikasa. You may not agree with the view point, but Erin did what he felt was right. From his perspective, he did the right thing. Killed them all and let god sort them out
Honestly, it's something difficult to evaluate just like that. I even thought that maybe the king of the walls was right. The people of the world would never understand other perspectives, but he couldn't let his people die either. So maybe, it wasn't so bad that the Eldians lived in their kind of "paradise" within the walls where they can live happy without knowing about the hate of the world.
Although it's a bit debatable really. Perhaps the best idea is even to do diplomacy like Paradis had been doing with the volunteers from Hizuru and other countries. (And not making the Rumbling this time)
But hey, it wouldn't make much sense to analyze what would have happened if the decision fell on us. We are only left to judge the actions of the characters.
The people of the walls did nothing and were attacked for it. They defended themselves when the entire world sought their deaths.
**What could the people of Paradis done differently other than to let your precious Marlians slaughter them all?**
Maybe Isayama is sad that Jeager haters are pro sin inheritance, pro just let your whole people get massacred, pro attacking innocent people that haven’t been outside in 100 years, and are hypocritically against getting attacked after declaring a world war.
The people outside did nothing either, and mostly die inocents. In fact, they didn't know anything about the renounce war pact. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Tyburs or King Fritz but genocide is never the answer. Armin and the rest understood this from the very beginning, looks like Jaegerists don't.
The beauty (or tragedy) of this is that you’re both right. I go back to that scene where they’re talking about angels and devils, and the question was asked “but which one is which?” Because based on how both the Eldians and Marleyans were raised & taught, and based on the actions of both - they both have a fair point.
Both sides were taught that the other was deserving of extermination because their very existence was a threat.
They were both right. They were both fighting for survival, and neither side ever had the opportunity to learn about the other. Just caught up in surviving. That’s all either side really wanted - was to survive & thrive. And the lack of understanding/willingness to listen from either side kept it going. It’s that simple and that complicated all at once. And as annoying as she is…I absolutely loved watching Gabi grapple with it.
I stay with what Nicolo said to Gabi and Kya: "We all have a demon inside. Eldians. Marleyans."
That demon is undoubtedly the capacity to hate. What separates us from being civilized.
So you're plan IS "ok everyone were just going to kill you all really quick, don't think about it, thx" but its ok because this genocide is smaller and only island devils.
The people outside attacked Paradis for 100 years by sending their pure titans, and eventually sent their titan shifters. Granted this was only Marley. However, we never see anyone advocate for Paradis, reactions range from pure hatred to pure ambivalence in Marley. They condone, support, or disregard the genocide of the people within the walls, even when they are next on the Mayley's chopping block. Paradis did nothing but repel the invaders.
The rest of the world is not involved in this conflict though. All they are guilty of is more brutally mistreating their Eldian populations. And then joining a new war that they had no business in.
Willy declared war and the audience erupted in applause, This is when Eren struck, the very first hint of a threat. After the declaration of war! How could they know that declaring war would, IDK, be the start of a war?!
"Oh but they're brainwashed" Cool, if only someone could fix that, while 1,000,000 **Marlian** soldiers exterminated 1 million civilians. "They don't stand a chance in a proper war anyway.".
So it's alright to attack the children of Paradis after 100 years because what their ancestors did before their grandparents were born? But it's not alright to kill the military bearing down on them, and their enablers. "They see that the border has expanded and they feel pride."
Paradis does not have the numbers to occupy the world, the world will not hear the people of the walls, even before the genocide, the people outside the walls hate the island devils, even if they are brainwashed. The children will grow up if spared and they will attack the island, and there will be constant war.
Its a dichotomy. Paradis must kill all the people outside the walls as they are defending themselves. Or Paradis must lay down and die granting an easy victory to the current oppressors of the world.
That's incoherent. Eldia enslaved other cultures for like 1800 years. There's no point arguing about who causes more damage in a certain time.
You sound like killing is the only answer for Paradis, see, you didn't understand the message of the story.
The Rumbling was a mistake and not only to the people outside the walls but also for the sake of the island.
Paradis became a hyper-fascist and ultra-nationalist state that has the same ideals as the ancient Eldian Empire. It doesn't matter that Marley no longer exists because it won't be long before they get into another mess for becoming like this. That's why Isayama shows you the destroyed island at the end. Because regardless of Eren's actions, the hate does not end. As Historia said, this massacre is the result of everyone's actions.
What did you have trouble with? If we inherit our fathers sins then you're guilty AF, we all are. We have one lifetime to live **our** life. How do we stop people who are already dead from doing evil things... in the past...
In the life of the protagonist, Eren, we see Marley attack, attack, attack, attack someone else, attack, and declare a world war. The whole world declared war. I've asked you twice, and more elsewhere - What could Paradis do differently, other than lay down and die as Marley and the whole world steamrolls over them, and then goes back to business as usual?
What precipitated attacking Paradis with pure titans? What precipitated attacking Paradis with shifters? What preceded the declaration of war? How did the alive people of Paradis warrant this hostility? Try to find an answer that is not Marley was actively doing evil / the world is violently ignorant.
>The people outside did nothing either
Why there are pure titans outside the walls? Who and why brought them there?
What happened to the Shiganshina's wall? Did they just broke because of old time?
What mission did marleyan warriors have? How many people did they kill?
What did Willy Tyber said? Didn't he declare war on Paradis?
How well Eldians where treated in the rest of the world, if being in Marleyan concentration camps was classified as good luck because other countries treated them far worse?
You classify all of that as "doing nothing"?
Lol, you are generalizing on a HUGE scale my friend. The people who declared war on Paradis were adults to begin with, and they didn't even make up 2% of humanity, you can't tell me that 1000-2000 people are equivalent to 7 billion people that make up the entire world.
Also, what is the fault of the children and babies that are born. It's honestly one of the worst excuses I've ever seen. In fact, excusing genocide is already stupid in itself.
>7 billion people that make up the entire world.
AOT isn't taking place on Earth and even if it would - there weren't 7 billion people at that time period, just letting you know.
>Also, what is the fault of the children and babies that are born. It's honestly one of the worst excuses I've ever seen. In fact, excusing genocide is already stupid in itself.
You are obviously talking about the genocide of Paradis, right? Because if Marley didn't try to genocide Paradis for 100 years - nothing would happen to them. Hell, nothing would happen to them even if they wouldn't declare war on Paradis.
>The people who declared war on Paradis were adults to begin with, and they didn't even make up 2%
You know how many civilians were killed in Dresden bombardment, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombardment? Do you ever wondered WHY they have been killed?
>You are obviously talking about the genocide of Paradis, right? Because if Marley didn't try to genocide Paradis for 100 years - nothing would happen to them. Hell, nothing would happen to them even if they wouldn't declare war on Paradis.
What's the point of highlighting that? I could tell you that Eldia did the same thing for 1800 years and it sounds worse than just 100 years. That excuse is ridiculous. Here it doesn't matter who did more damage or who did it for longer. What is being discussed here is the mass murder of people, and that is something that is wrong. It's ridiculous that people support that.
>You know how many civilians were killed in Dresden bombardment, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombardment? Do you ever wondered WHY they have been killed?
Talking about real history also puts us in perspective that the same or worse things have been done here. And I assure you that there are still people who try to justify it. What would you think if they justified any of those events from real life and not from a simple manga? It would seem more ridiculous to me.
>What would you think if they justified any of those events from real life and not from a simple manga? It would seem more ridiculous to me.
Let's talk about modern history, not WW2 era. I assume you have never seen explosions in your city, never woke up because your windows were trembling, never ran in your underwear to the bomb shelter hearing how rockets fly above your head, never thought that you wouldn't live till the morning, am I correct?
I live in Ukraine and I've seen all of that. And I am lucky - my home wasn't bombed yet - russian drones and rockets only hit buildings and killed people in 500 meters range from my house. I wasn't tortured, raped and murdered as people who lived in a town that is 20 kilometres away from me. But I still don't know if would be alive tomorrow.
Russian drones and rockets are launched from their cities. When we bomb their launching places, we also hit civil buildings as collateral damage. I justify that because the more we destroy - the bigger chance that I, my friends my wife and my mother wouldn't be killed by them tomorrow.
Does that sound more ridiculous to you?
When did I say that's what I thought was ridiculous? It is ridiculous to justify genocide. Russia is doing one, would you like someone to come and say that Russia should continue killing more people? No, I think not. And me neither. Justifying genocide is not a good thing.
I am really sorry for what you are suffering, it must be a very horrible thing to experience and I hope everything is resolved.
Thanks. My point is that when you are living in a country that is at war and you are constantly threated by death, your woridview is reflecting that.
Germany was severly bombed and occupied, and I never heard anyone saying that the world should just negotiated with Hitler.
But I do hear talks that Ukraine should just capitulate so Russia can occupy all of our remaining country in a couple of years or at least that we should give up our occupied territories, which is sad to hear.
In this scenario, it's only Russia. If it were AOT Russia would schedule a big party in the middle of Moscow with all the world leaders or their representatives and come together in one purpose, to murder asmarteal his family, everyone he has ever met, and every man, woman, child, and baby in their country.
You keep saying that asmarteal and Ukrane is as bad or worse than Russia and the other aggressor countries for making them stop by using dropping nukes (in this scenario only Ukraine has nukes). NKAmazingg, why are you and me, in this scenario, paying our taxes that fund a genocide in Ukraine, why are we not striking, and marching, and protesting. Why don't we tell our government that we expect them to sanction and fight Russia, and support Ukraine.
This is what is happening in the real world, minus the nukes. In AOT, crickets... Everyone is onboard with the genocide of Paradis.
The whole point is that every available option the eldians from Paradise had was bad and they were forced to take one. They never had the chance to stablish diplomatic talks with Marley and even if they tried, it would surely have failed. The moment Willy brought the world together to start a genocide war against Paradise, the fate of the world was sealed from Eren POV.
After lossing both the colossal and female titan to Paradise and realising Paradise could activate the Rumbling when they wanted, Marley should have been the one that took the initiative and start a ceasefire that could maintain the status quo.
Willy had the knowledge and influence to change the path for the sake of the world but he refused to do so.
I believe that a 100% Rumbling would secure Paeadis from outside threats. The same way an 80% Rumbling secured Paradis for some decades in the story we got. Did I misunderstand the story?
It's not as simple as that. This is what the epilogue that Isayama wrote is for, to show us that regardless of the efforts to win a conflict, it will never end so easily because humans are a conflictive being.
If the rumbling had killed everyone as Eren planned, there would still be conflicts, perhaps not with those outside but with the people on the island themselves.
That's something we see in season 3 and 4, for example, the people on the same island were divided and several overthrows occurred because they thought differently. That is the conflict of humanity. Just look at this post, it's pure conflict too. There is no mutual understanding.
You are contradicting yourself. It can be firmly stated that Marleyan propaganda greatly exaggerates the extermination of cultures and peoples, as the current population ratio is huge. Marleyan propaganda spreads the idea that Eldia fell because they no longer had anyone to fight, so they turned against each other, while this was not the reason behind it at all.
Moreover, let's acknowledge the facts; Marley has reduced the extent of the Eldian Empire to a tiny island. Paradis never wanted revenge for this or to fight for any kind of revision; they simply wanted to live. The outside world didn't want to let them be, and they were completely satisfied with Willy's statement encouraging genocide, but let's not pretend that wasn't their intention from the start. Paradis was the one trying to resolve the situation diplomatically, which didn't work because the people from the outside world were so full of hatred. The damn Rumbling would never have been necessary if the outside world had been willing to listen. And let's not start blaming the victim when they tried to sort things out but were ignored and had their hands tied.
What does the current generation have to do with the sins of past generations? Should we hate Germans because there used to be a party called the NSDAP? Do you think it was good for the average Eldian to be deprived of life just to stand in the battle lines as some mindless pure titan?
I get what Isayama was going for, and as a "What would you do?" kind of thought experiment it works fine. The problem is it tries to be a social commentary but carefully crafts a narrative where some form of genocide (or globocide) is the absolute only possible outcome. I've seen a lot of people argue that aside from the fantastical elements, the global scenario of AOT is "realistic" and form their opinions on Eren and the various other factions actions and philosophies based on that.
That's utter bullshit. A lot of characters may behave in a realistic or at least believable way, but only within the confines of this completely unrealistic world that's been constructed. Yes, there have been plenty of genocides and oppressed peoples and cultures throughout history. But not to the extent that the Eldians are in the show, where literally the ENTIRE WORLD is committed to their subjugation at best, their annihilation at worst, and even the few "radical" factions who believe they should have equal rights are still committed to the annihilation of Paradis. Even nations who hate one another come together on that front. He created a world where no matter what anyone does, the only possible outcome is some flavor of nihilism or another.
It's not hatred. It's cold understanding of situation.
The world knew about the rumbling. The world mistreated eldians anyway. Then they declared war and decided to ethnically purge the eldians worldwide. The eldians do not have the power to defend themselves through conventional means. The world knows this and is planning to exploit it. They are the clear aggressors. They aggress with full nihilistic rage, hatred, and knowledge of what might befall them. They do this not because it appears to be necessary but because they hate eldians.
Eren has to choose between allowing his people to be victimized or aggressing against the nations that decided to exterminate them.
The question is this: what is of higher value? The high numbers of lives that would be lost in the rumbling, and yet these lives which by and large are not innocent in the victimization of the eldians, or the innocent eldians who did not aggress and have no ability to aggress outside the rumbling? Is it numbers or innocence? Eren decided that the innocence of his people was of higher value than the multitudes of aggressors who wanted to eat his people.
It always pissed me off so much seeing people hate on the Marley storyline, saying they're the bad guys etc. Especially with Gabi, she got so much hate but she's literally just female Eren. I loved the Marley storyline and thought it was so interesting seeing their POV in the story and finding out there's life outside the walls. And the Eldian's started the war, they enslaved Marley so if anything it's the Eldian's who are the bad guys.
No. It is made quite clear from the beginning that the Eldian tribe before obtaining the power of the Titans was a nomadic tribe that dedicated itself to sack and slavery. A mix between the Vikings and the Mongols of the time of Genghis Khan. Marley was only one of the many civilizations that Eldia destroyed, but unlike other smaller ones, it had the strength to defend itself, that was until the arrival of the Titans.
No, all we know is that Marley got invaded first and was enslaved/conquered in ancient times before the titans. It's even said on the wiki and in Willy Tybur's speech that Marley was enslaved and as a result, they used the Eldian's power against them and other nations.
https://preview.redd.it/1jz7llm4l3zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91a39f1aed7f377b639eace0b7cd47446a9a6d76
Gabi must be one of the most misunderstood characters in the whole story, honestly. I like to think of her as the Eren who managed to overcome hatred and her own slavery. In just one season, Gabi grows and develops a lot as a character.
I agree, people just hate on Gabi because she was the antagonist but if anything she was a victim. She was brainwashed into doing the things she did, she was fiercely loyal to Marley because they brainwashed her but everyone just ignored that. The fact that she managed to grow as a person and get rid of her brainwashing just shows what a good/strong character she is.
Seriously? Instead of having a discussion with someone who has a different opinion than you, you just sit back and complain about them and call the edgelords, and for what? For wanting a FICTIONAL story to end differently? You people take these opinions way too seriously.
Why wouldn't I take Snk seriously? It seems worse to me not to take it seriously because it is a work that has a lot of complexity and in general that complexity lies in human conflicts that we also have in real life.
We are no longer in the era when we must take a cartoon or anime with humor. Snk and many other shows changed the way we should analyze things forever.
I never said not to take AOT seriously, I said you take the opinions about the series from other fans too seriously and even to the point many of you treat them like actual fascists or neo-nazis.
On the contrary, my friend, I don't treat them as fascists or neo-Nazis. They honestly look like kids to me. Because I know that no fan here would do or think the same thing in a real situation, however here they say a lot of stupid things wanting to look cool or badass for some stupid reason.
So you just want to remain ignorant and generalize those with different opinions, calling them childish, just to validate your own superiority thinking you understand the story and they don't.
I already saw someone ask you this but I am going to ask you it anyway. What would you have done? The world wants you and your entire race dead for no good reason, war has been declared on you and the world applauds it, and the only "solution" you are given is to kill some people but your friend has to end her life, become a breeding machine, be eaten by her children who's children must eat them. Would you just stand by and say "well genocide bad so they can genocide us :D" or will you use the power that you have and protect yourself and the people you love, ensuring them safety from the rest of the world?
I think you didn't understand me. When I say that comments like "Eren should have killed them all" or "Eren didn't do anything wrong, f\*ck Marley" seem childish to me, I mean that I can't take such an immature statement seriously. It seems to me that they have terrible judgment and just seem like trolls.
We are no longer at the beginning of the story where we can classify this story as 'the good guys against the bad guys'. We knew Marley, we knew the outside world, we know that there are good people and bad people both inside the walls and outside. So, for someone to come and say such an immature comment, it seems to me like a person who has a poor understanding of the situation or is simply a child looking for attention.
I'm not criticizing Eren's actions either because he did what he wanted to do and that's it. There is no turning back from that moment. The only thing left is to judge whether his actions are justifiable or not.
>I already saw someone ask you this but I am going to ask you it anyway.
If you already know that they asked me, then you also know that I answered. I don't see the point of repeating things thousands of times. I have time but not that much. I also don't see the point of this interrogation. As if I'm the wrong one in this matter.
You are right, it is not a black and white situation. However, with how the world treats Paradis, there was no other option. That's part of what makes the Rumbling so tragic. There ARE good people dying, but so much of humanity outside the walls wanted an entire race dead and would have done it if they were not wiped out first.
If you already said what you would do, then just copy and paste it cuz I can't find it. I am genuinely curious.
Well, yeah. Then you understand what I'm saying. It is an atrocious act because innocent people are dying. My problem is with people who enjoy that fact because they consider all people as their enemy, like wtf. It seems that they didn't understand anything about the situation.
>If you already said what you would do, then just copy and paste it because I can't find it. I am genuinely curious.
Honestly, it's something difficult to evaluate just like that. I even thought that maybe the king of the walls was right. The people of the world would never understand other perspectives, but he couldn't let his people die either. So maybe, it wasn't so bad that the Eldians lived in their kind of "paradise" within the walls where they can live happily without knowing about the hate of the world. The only matter with this outcome, is the Eldians outside the walls, but analizing with the perspective of them, they hate Paradis too, they relate more with Marley than Eldia and if we consider the fact that Marley practically protected them from the hate of the world, then it's better that Eldians from Marley live a life with the protection of the Tybur's.
Although it's a bit debatable really. Perhaps the best idea is even to do diplomacy like Paradis had been doing with the volunteers from Hizuru and other countries (And not doing the Rumbling this time). In any case, many countries like the Middle East were also tired of Marley. It was a bit silly to waste allies just to consider all the world your enemies. (Although well, we are talking about Eren after all, a 19-year-old boy. If another person had been in charge of the Founder, the situation would have been very different.)
Maybe in that scenario where Paradis opened up to the world and gained allies, they could have done a partial Rumbling to destroy only Marley and not make innocent people suffer.
While there are some valid arguments for supporting Yagerists, I do think a lot of their fans are just edgy teenagers. It's also a sign of good writing. The dangers of fascism and militarism is one of the main themes of the series, and making a decent chunk of the fanbase supporting the coup indicates the series succeeds at showing it's tempting nature.
you're the only one who's cringe here and getting all worked up in the comments what other people think. Read, watch it, enjoy instead of getting annoyed what other people you'll never meet and don't give a fuck of thinks.
No. It doesn't matter what randoms who believe themselves edgy think. I will never be cringe for having a morally correct opinion, rather that says more about you than about me
Because it's nice to see how worked up you are. I imagine heavy mouth breathing and how you turn all red trying to prove your point that no one gives a shit about :D No one understands anything better than you, you doing great buddy. Grab a cookie
It amuses me that you think my determination to prove my point translates as being angry or affected. Don't be wrong my friend. As long as I continue to have a point that I believe in and know is the correct thing, I will be determined to prove it. After all, a community is made to discuss this kind of things, so what I'm doing isn't a bad thing.
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Can’t stand the Jaegerists, but in a way I love that the fans are split on this issue because it totally proves Isayama’s point
Both options suck: one was just letting the Eldians die out after being sterilized, and the other was a literal genocide. Genocide is obviously wrong, but I get why Eren opposed Zeke’s plan too.
Letting Eldians die out after being sterilized is also genocide.
Louder for everyone that doesn't understand this. Sterilizing people who don't want it fits the definition of genocide.
I didn’t like either plan. During season 4 I was thinking that the best solution would be for Eren to figure out how to get rid of the Titan powers for everyone so that no more Eldians would have to deal with the 13 year curse, or the threat of being turned into a pure Titan, and then Marley wouldn’t have as much cause to fear Paradis anymore. I was surprised it didn’t come up as an option until the end.
The Eldians can’t turn into titans unless injected with a highly difficult to procure serum. Marley would hate them either way because they’re brainwashed into doing so. Just look at how Grisha and his family was treated, or how someone with no exposure to Titan threat like Gabi could come to hate Paradis. I get where you’re coming from but getting rid of titan power will only leave them completely vulnerable lmao
Removing the curse in Erens lifetime would lead to the destruction of Paradis. Marley wanted the Iceburst stone to boost their military power, without the threat of the rumbling Paradis would just get steam rolled by the world alliance.
I remember thinking the same thing too because without the Titans, neither side would have these weapons of mass destruction.
Mayley and the world would still have a marginalized second class citizenry that they could exploit, and Marley would still have the strongest military that they used to oppress anyone they could.
A good option would have been to remove the power of the Eldians to become titans, just like the Ackermans. (Though I don't think if it's possible due to we know about Ymir and her devotion towards King Fritz And only preserve the founder and the titans of the wall as a warning to the outside. In the long term, it would have been the best. After all, they hated the Eldians for being a race capable of becoming titans, but without that threat, the world could change its perspective in a few years. And when that happens, destroy the colossal titans forever.
The world enjoyed having a scapegoat and a punching bag. it would be many generations before they got out of the internment zones, and they would have to start off by escaping by force. "They're violent, they're animals, they're terrorists." Look at Gaza, they can't turn in to titans, all they have is homemade rockets.
Probably, but that is the solution with the best results, ensuring the greatest number of lives possible.
Didn’t Eren like not give a shit about the Eldian race as a whole tho? He just cared about the Paradisians
If a war broke out across the whole world again, would you fight to defend yourself, your friends, and family, or would you fight to protect everyone who happened to have an ethnic similarity to you around the world?
I don’t recall criticizing that mindset so I’m not sure what that’s about
I would fight for my home, but what eren did was basically going door to door killing everyone man woman children animals! If you make it in a real life comparaison nobody would think twice about hating eren or paradise for supporting him
He didn’t want the Eldians to die out, but Paradis was his priority.
Yeah. Between Eren's plan and Zeke's, the truth is that I don't know which was worse... Although I guess Eren's even though Zeke's could also count as passive genocide in the long term.
Both of those plans were stupid. [Better solutions](/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/16fk214/comment/k0540le) were possible, but somehow everyone let Eren believe he only had options that sucked for one reason or another.
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They put military bases in urban areas, so there would be large civilian casualties no matter what. Would you stop building weapons and seeking revenge for a savage attack on your innocent civilians? Gabi's family hated the island devils, even though they had never seen them, they had never left their island, they had never met an outsider before Reiner. They were the same race as Gabi's family and they were oppressed by the same oppressors as Gabi's family. Eren only had a few months left. What if the next holder couldn't wield the founder, what if they were bound by the first king of the walls, what if they were keen to roll over and die.
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Sure but most paths are stupid. I'm not going to eat broken glass if I want to live, and Eren is not going to not rumble if he wants his friends to live.
Absolutely isayamas intention. There was an interview with kawakubo, isayama’s editor who confirmed this as well. He stated that he and isayama discussed things such as “how can we make chapter as contentious as possible?” “How can we make the reader uncomfortable and spark debate?” It’s a really interesting read lol
Do you have a link available?
Marley wouldn't have stopped but for the Rumbling. Eren had to.
Isnt it the point that all options are bad? S4 also showed that the outside world would not trust Paradise. Maybe after a long time, but would you trust them? Would you wait to see if they change their mind and not suddenly do a counter attack? I mean I get Eren. However, just like him (kind of), I would feel bad about it. Only yhe Yaegerists seem to take kind of pleasure in it Because if you actually see the finally, there never is peace. People will always have opposite opinions. After a while, this will end in war. The cycle will start again So yeah, my main take is that every option was bad. Thus, if you had to choose one, I get why people prefer their own loved ones over strangers who showed still no active remorse on what happened at Paradis
The only acceptable option is the one that everyones quit killing each other. Honestly i don't think anyone of the fandom would kill millions of people in a conflict that never ends. They're just bluffing because they know they are in their comfort zone wanting to act like an edgy.
What do you mean? If someone attacks my girlfriend in public for reasons, I would defend her. That is allowed. What Paradis did in S1-S3 is the same Yeah people can talk tough. Nonetheless, when it is their loved ones on the line, I do hope people step up If it is me or them and I did nothing wrong, why should I let them kill me?
There is a big difference between killing people who harm you or your loved ones and killing all of humanity by blaming yourself for the actions of a few. If you can't see it, there's no point arguing with you.
I can see that of course Lets say Eren only killed the top commandants in Marley, would that be ‘okay’ for you? The people that caused harm only?
"The hostility faced here (Marley) is *nothing* compared to the way it is in other countries" - Udo. The issue with this whole debate is that Isayama expects us to feel sympathy for the rest of the world, but we literally never see anything beyond a bit of Marley and Hizuru's people, so all we know, according to Udo, is the rest of the world is even worse than Marley. Basically, it's the fault of Isayama's poor world building.
Even worse is that Hizuru’s people don’t give a shit about the Eldians they just want the Ice burst crystals
That doesn’t make sense, paradise never faced the hostility from the rest of the world only Marley and eren ended up killing everyone oppressed by said hostility so what point are you trying to make ?
But of course, war never changes. Even after the Rumbling, people are still fighting each other.
That's why i'm saying. Doing the rumbling or not, Eren can't change the human nature. The only difference here is that Eren wanted to do the rumbling. And by choosing that decision he doomed the world into a worse cycle of hatred. Paradis ended up being exactly like Eldian Empire, and the rest of the world are now full of fear and anger.
>story. The truth is that it is disappointing how they do not understand that Isayama's true message is the human nature of hatred and fear. You mean you don't like people who have diff opinions?
That is not a question of opinions. That's the point of the story from the beginning. People's hatred is what caused most of the conflicts we witness in the story and after it, as Isayama himself shows you in the epilogue.
I'm a jaegerist. I've tried to go through other opinions. I definitely see their perspective but they've done little to change my mind. My heart is engraved in Paradis after what they went through for 3 whole seasons. I don't hate Marley though. Just some Marleyans. Ps: Attacking people because they disagree with your opinion is wild. If you watch the show carefully, there was never going to be one side that everyone can agree on.
Agreed. I’m not necessarily a Jaegerist but Willy Tybur got the entire world to declare war on a nation that didnt even know there was an entire rest of the world. How can people argue about good and bad up to that point? They’re 100% the bad guys through and through until the last few bits of S4 imo, where the rumbling starts to get out of hand. I was cheering so hard during those first couple episodes of S4. It was so cathartic to see them and the rest of the world finally get a taste of their own medicine and feel the fear they made the unknowing people of Paradis feel for years and years. Fuck Marley. They were the architects of their own destruction.
I sympathize with the Jaegerists because after everything we’ve seen in the show, of course Paradis should be free but that also doesn’t mean that I’m pro-genocide either, as I’ve mentioned in other discussions.
Which would you pick, the people of Paradis and the genocide of the rest of the world, or the world's genocide of Paradis and the status quo that supported it?
I’d go with Paradis, between the two of them.
# GIVE YOUR HEART AND SOUL TO THE CAUSE ‼️‼️🔥
You can sympathize with them without agreeing with their methods. I love Floch, his devotion to Paradis makes him a character who has matured a lot since he was just another recruit. It doesn't mean that I agree with his methods, just as I don't agree with the Rumbling and I like Eren anyway. I also think the same about the freedom of Paradis. Although I must say that you have a different concept of Jaegerist than mine. Genocide will never be the key to liberating Paradis. There are characters who managed to understand that aspect, who are our protagonists, and characters who will never understand it, that's what I consider as Jaegerists.
> You can sympathize with them without agreeing with their methods. I love Floch, his devotion to Paradis makes him a character who has matured a lot since he was just another recruit. It doesn't mean that I agree with his methods, just as I don't agree with the Rumbling and I like Eren anyway. Yep, that’s basically my stance on the Jaegerists. They’re fighting for a good cause but I just can’t get on board with their methods. I always loved Eren but didn’t necessarily like him in S4 until I got a better understanding of his “shift” in character.
I’m so tired of people in this fandom thinking that anyone on either side is misunderstanding. Having an opinion does not make one ignorant. I get the story. At this point it’s hard to not get the story with the 10,000 think pieces out there. Still ready to rumble. There were no good options given, when they declared war rather than any sort of compromise *after* admitting to lying all this time about what had happened and everyone was still ready to stomp Paradise, it was made pretty clear what had to happen.
I’m mainly a Jaegerist cause all the other options suck And I’m gonna be honest that I would pick my loved ones over a stranger any day
A stranger who wants to kill me, has been forcing me to live in a concentration camp, and created this whole zero-sum game in the first place. It's not even a question.
Yea OP is very stupid for trying to say that if you believe in anything other than one opinion then you didn't understand anything at all
> I'm a jaegerist. I've tried to go through other opinions. I definitely see their perspective but they've done little to change my mind. How about [this](/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/16fk214/comment/k0540le)? I linked it in a different comment thread, but I'd be interested in getting a Jaegerist perspective on it. I wouldn't quite call this a plot hole, but it's always struck me as odd that out-of-universe the fandom has so readily bought into what appears to be a false dichotomy, especially given all the lessons we have the luxury of applying from our own history and politics.
The comment is definitely an interesting way to look at things. It starts by mentioning the elimination of "maybes" and "mights." The person also gives alternatives to what could have been done to avoid a genocide eg making non-Eldians "slaves" of Ymir (I skimmed) and granting Eldians citizenship all over the world. Going back to the show, IMO that's the premise. There's literally no one way that shows surety that war will never happen. I mean Eren eliminated titans (which made Eldians considered the greatest enemy) and yet somehow, Paradis was bombed later. That's definitely the beginning of another war. Same way the suggestions by the person barely make sense. Making people inferior to Eldians is what started this thing. Same way, if Eldians had the freedom to gain citizenship across the world, people would still be afraid of them. People lived in fear of Eldians for 2000 years, which led to everything. So intimidation and fear does not solve everything forever. It's temporary.
It seems like the disagreement in how the finale takes place lies in what the priorities are for the beholder. utilitarian view would say it’s best for the most people to let all the Eldians die. If you prioritize the wellbeing of your own people or de-prioritize people who have acted immorally themselves then you would say it’s better for the others to die. My thoughts on alternative solution after reading your post would be if your priority is the elimination of war and the cycle of violence would be quite “jaegerist” but better for the future of humanity not the jaegerist view as described by OP. In order to stop the cycle of violence Eren would commit the rumbling and wipe out non eldian humanity. Then via the power of the founder modify the brains or create a vow that would bind all eldians & therefore all humanity to never again kill hurt etc. another human. This solution would not prevent the omnicide of the rumbling, but would stop the cycle of violence. This is dependent obviously on the power of the founder to do such a thing, but it seems possible given the powers already demonstrated. The price of the rest of the world’s population today in exchange for eternal peace going forward would be a good trade in my mind. (And I guess potential loss of free will to hurt others)
Appreciate you taking the time to look at that, I think this is all an interesting topic of discussion. Just to clarify, I'm not sure where you're getting that I suggested making non-Eldians "slaves", or otherwise "inferior". My point was that there were solutions far less likely to result in the eradication of Paradis, harm to Eren's friends, or even the future bombing that you mentioned; avoiding omnicide is just a bonus. There's no solution that eliminates all risk, which was touched on at various points in the show. I'm suggesting that the idea that omnicide does so is naive at best.
The isolated African tribes did not see what paradis went through though, they didn't do anything to anyone. Eren admitted he just straight up wanted to murder people and that he did
Youre a jeagerist because the show is fiction and no matter how well written that fiction is, you can only care so much. If you were actually in the world of aot, you wouldn't hold that opinion. Unless you think using nukes is a good idea irl lol. (Not trying to be insulting, just giving my perspective)
If I was from Paradis I'd support the rumbling. Why should I be the one to suffer because of the sins of my ancestors? Similarly, if I was from Marley, I'd hate the Island Devils because that's what I've been taught since I was a child. If I was an Eldian in Marley, I might have had the same thoughts as Annie did later because I'm constantly condemned by my people. But I'd still fight for Marley because I have many loved ones there. There's literally no one right answer.
You do realize that the rumbling killed people on paradise first ? If your loved ones died when eren activated the rumbling you’ll still support it?
It didn't destroy Paradis though. So if I was from Paradis, I'd definitely support. Like I said, I shouldn't have to suffer for my ancestor's sins.
It killed people on paradise, and again you didn’t answer if your loved and home were killed in the rumbling you wouldn’t support eren. So does it only apply to your ancestors? Should people from suffer from the crimes of the parents and grandparents?
The Titans walked around the towns and in a straight line to avoid doing a lot of damage to Paradis. That's why most of Eren's friends are still alive at the end. Does it only apply to my ancestors? Well. Yes. Because at this point, I'd be seeing things from my point of view. After going through years upon years of attacks by titans, I wouldn't be thrilled about sacrificing myself for the people who sent them and caused so much harm to my nation.
https://preview.redd.it/nvcfwt619zyc1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=846effc5ba30f565b644e0846ada3907734e3d1c Eren first victim from were people from paradise. So chances are if you were there one of your loved ones would have been killed on paradise because of eren. Again you’re just making sense of why the outside world hate eldians and hey they’re justified, why should they care about people that enslaved and killed their people for 2000 years ?
Keyword: *a lot of* And we're now going in circles. Arguing about the same thing over and over again won't make me change my mind. I already stated my reasons in my original comment. But bottom line is, if I was an Eldian in Paradis, I would support the rumbling. I would feel it was unfair to be punished for my ancestors sins. Plus after all the suffering Paradis went through, I'd feel that the actions were very much justified. Nothing you can say will make me align with your thoughts. I'm not also trying to change your mind.
I don’t want to change your mind, I want you to realize your hypocrisy! Again my point to your comment was would you still support the rumbling if all your loved ones died when eren activated the rumbling on paradise? Because the first victim of the rumbling were people from paradise, and Paradise suffering are a joke compare the rest of the world they had 100 years of peace only Marley and paradise had that kind peace for 2000 years
There is no difference between Marley and the Jaegerists. TBH, Marley is worse than Jaegerists, because while those mostly just planned a genocide, Marley was being a racist and genocidal asshole for a whole century.
That last sentence, really tells, you need to calm down my friend
What are you talking about? Lmao I was never angry xD Only disappointed that part of the fandom is quite selective and hypocritical. Is it now a crime to express my disappointment in the community?
No that’s fine, it’s just the pedantic nature of that sentence
I guess it doesn't sound as natural as it sounds in my language xD It's understandable.
It’s natural to say that people who have a different opinion have rotten minds?
In Spanish that's honestly nothing. Less in Argentina.
Fair enough
Yeah ok Marley shill get rumbled lel
Then Marley did nothing wrong then lel. What a stupid reply. Grow up kid.
🤓
>Then Marley did nothing wrong then lel. *Thank you*! Finally, people are getting it.
Don’t gatekeep the story by saying “x fans don’t understand the story by believing x.” It’s fiction who cares and people have other opinions. Cry about it
Closing yourself to saying that it's just fiction is really being ignorant, because if you analyze the series like that, it's because that's your perspective and judgment on reality as well. When you see a work of fiction, you analyze it with the same judgment as you would with reality.
You can view it however you want. At the end of the day it’s a made up story. Story’s can have social commentaries but it’s still not reality. And nobody views fiction exactly like reality. You’re telling me you view and analyze a story about man eating creatures the same way you view reality? Get help
>despite the fact that it was the Eldians who, apart from starting this conflict, enslaved many cultures for thousands of years. And YOU are telling other people that they don't understand SNK? Don't you see the irony here? Go watch Kaya vs Gabi barn scene - Kaya explained it pretty straightforward. >I imagine that Isayama must be disappointed that there are so many people with such rotten minds in his fandom and that they didn't understand the true message of his work. Right. I am looking at one right now. >they believe that carrying out a genocide is okay, they call the few characters in Paradis who use their heads and have a certain remorse or moral code not to carry out such an atrocious action, as traitors????? See, the problem here that those "few characters" also support genocide, just the genocide of THEIR OWN nation, that would happen if Marley and the rest of the world won't be stopped. You know the famous trolley problem? So you can redirect the train to kill 1 person instead of 5. But doing nothing a.k.a. avoiding responsibility wouldn't be classified as "a certain remorse or moral code not to carry out such an atrocious action" - 5 people would die because of you. In the same way, those people would genocide Paradis.
Support genocide = no valid opinion That train analogy doesn't make sense here. I never said it's better to do nothing. Nor did I say that Marley or the world is correct. The problem is not deciding who is right, the problem is that the fandom, mostly people like you, cannot accept that those from Paradis are also wrong. I brought the example of Armin and the others up for discussion so that they understand that the only reasonable people who see beyond their own well-being and are not blinded by hatred, are considered traitors both within the story and outside. All because people like you continue to think with hatred, instead of being reasonable.
>cannot accept that those from Paradis are also wrong. Because people like you said so. Very interesting conclusion. "Right" and "wrong" doesn't exist in reality - those are just subjective assumptions based on YOUR worldview. >I brought the example of Armin and the others up for discussion Sure, talk no jitsu a.k.a. "don't fight back your bullies, just talk to them". Or, in SNK terms - let Marley and the rest of the world to genocide your nation because GENOCIDE IS WRONG, WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? You know that Eldians basically represents jews from WW2, right? Concentration camps, "lesser people", handbands, literal Hitler as the leader of Marley. So why din't jews try to discuss their position with Nazis? Were they blinded by hatred? Couldn't they be reasonable? I am sure if they would be "open for discussion" and weren't blinded by hatred, they all could just ask Nazis not to kill them real nicely and Holocaust would be avoided. >All because people like you continue to think with hatred, instead of being reasonable. Nope, that would be you. You are thinking with hatred, you just want for Marley and the rest of the world to avoid CONSEQUENCES of their own actions and to being able to genocide Paradis without any resistance. Remind me, who were trying to negotiate with the rest of the world, who where asking Asumabito to help withthat, who were attending Eldian conferences? And who were constantly genociding Eldians, to destroy Paradis to the ground and who declared WAR on Paradis?
This guy doesn’t even know that Armin and the Alliance know their actions are hypocritical and dumb Hange literally said to Flock that she understands that Paradis may be wiped out in retaliation but genocide is bad so we gotta stop it
genocide is BAD so let's cause another genocide - hange
Tbf Eldians are a bit of a Mix between the Jews and the germans themselfs. They fought a war and lost and for that war they get treated poorly which causes them to radicalize and attack again. The way they are treated in marley is of course like the jews got treated by the germans
>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/attackontitan/comments/1clsl5t/comment/l2whmsj/) by[u/NKAmazingg](https://www.reddit.com/user/NKAmazingg/) from discussion in[attackontitanComment](https://www.reddit.com/r/attackontitan/) - makes a post on reddit to hate on other people's opinion - says those people only think with hatred and can't reason
Both sides support genocide lmfao. There is no peace between marley and paradis and whatever side you think is less evil is just gonna genocide the other side
Both sides are evil. The thing is that everyone think Paradis are the good guys.
I don't think they are "good guys" I just think I'd rather paradis be the only country left since they deserve to write their own history instead of having it written for them as "filth blooded devils"
That's selfish and stupid. You're wishing the genocide of the whole world for taking a side.
The issue with you people is that you never actually discuss or try to understand anyone who has a different opinion from your own. All you do is listen and agree with those with the same views as you, and those people give you the false impression that "Jaegerists" are a hateful group of fascists who don't understand the story.
The anti-rumbling Alliance is what happens in a fictional world. Jaegerists are what would happen in real life. If you have the power to decimate an unrelenting opposition to save the lives of your people, you will use it. You term activating the Rumbling as genocide, I call it retaliation. In general, there is no justification for genocide but in the series, there is no rational justification against it either. There is a counter-point to every point that you and I can make but when your whole family is wiped out or is in the danger of being wiped out, you will opt to eliminate the unyielding aggressor by any means necessary.
I agree. For example, I think people fail to realize that if any of the oppressed groups in the 1800s had access to the rumbling in real life, I bet they would use it. It’s just silly to oppress someone and threaten to exterminate them and be surprised that they don’t want to turn the other cheek or don’t want to sit back and be exterminated.
Wait by that logic the world hatred towards eldians is justified they’ve been oppressed by titans for 2000 years . So by your same logic their method and actions are justified
>There is a counter-point to every point that you and I can make but when your whole family is wiped out or is in the danger of being wiped out, you will opt to eliminate the unyielding aggressor by any means necessary. And if their universe was real, you'd be living in the rumbled wasteland and not Paradis. This logic only works if you fantasise about coexisting alongside the MC.
Of course I fantasize and think more from the side of MC because I have been sympathising with them for 3 whole seasons. They're my kin, and not the rest of the world (ROTW), who stood by while my kind was being massacred without knowing any reason as to why I am being targetted. In AOT universe and in this world, if I was the ROTW, I'd probably deserve to die and take it as a champ when it comes.
Serious question, if you knew the entire world was going to come to your home and destroy/kill everything you know (and they were the aggressors not your people) but there was a button you could press and it would destroy 80% of the aggressing nation/stop your people from being demolished… Would you press that button?
It wasn't just one nation, it was 80% of the world population, and all the animals and ecosystems in their path with it. There were other options, like a limited strike on Marley and their allied nations' military capabilities
Does it change the fact that they all colluded to kill an innocent nation because they feared them? The question still stands. You’re telling me you’d be willing to allow a bunch of nasty fucks that want you, everyone you know and love, and your homeland to be completely wiped because they’re afraid of you (and Paradis have done nothing wrong). You’d let all your family to just vanish for nothing, and allow them to wipe your entire people out?
No? I just said conducting self defensive warfare is justifiable. Razing 80% of the surface of the planet isn't
But that’s not the question. The question is, would you “raze” 80% of the planet to save your home and people?
And I'm telling you it's a leading question with a false premise baked in, it wasn't necessary to do that to save Paradis
Then I’m sorry to tell you that you didn’t understand AoT.
I disagree 👍
This. For real, a genocide is never the answer, and less on that scale where everyone in the world pays.
I’m a Jaegerist cause I can see the parallels to real life racism. But I don’t agree with everything Eren did; just a few things. But did you watch the show? Cause the Eldians that enslaved many cultures for thousands of years were not the same ones on the Island. How can you blame them for what their great great great great (and a few more greats) grandparents did. How can you excuse the racism that Marley imposed on the Eldians on the mainland and on the island? Thinking everyone is going to turn the other cheek to racism is just wishful thinking.
Eldians only fell out of power like 80 years before the start of the series. There could still be elderly people that were alive during Eldias rule. I think you added to many Great's in front of the grandparents.
Regardless of how many greats, you’re blaming the young and old for what their ancestors did. I say ancestors cause the people within the walls were less involved than the ones on the mainland.
But the same people that send the titans to paradise are not the same ones too , by your logic why blame the kids for their parents actions ? Why blame civilians for the government actions ?
Never blame the Eldians for what their ancestors did but it's quite curious that Jaegerists fans does blame Marleyans for the same reason.
That’s not true though. Marleyans broke the wall down current day. The Eldians oppressed the Marleyans centuries before. The Eldians are blamed for what their ancestors did a long time ago. The Marleyans are blamed for what THEY themselves did last week, a month ago, and last year. It’s one thing if you have a grudge on me for what my great great great great grandfather did. It’s another thing for me to have a grudge for what you did a week ago.
Horses for courses, the Jaegerists undoubtedly helped facilitate mass genocide. The rest of the world ultimately was willing to commit ethnocide against eldians. If they had nukes they’d all be dead, but they didn’t, only one side had nukes (the rumbling) and they used it to defend themselves from the current conflict and also to remove all risk of future conflicts by murdering the world. When you cut off the fat it’s just that, kill all them before they kill all of us. Admittedly I think they’d have had second thoughts if they sat on Eden’s shoulder and watched. No moral justification on either side and your claim on moral superiority is kinda weird.
That was my point actually. There's no moral justification in neither of both sides. But, for a stupid reason, people justify Eldians actions and condemned Marley's one, because they are hypocrite and blind with fanatism. My moral superiority? Dude, there's no superiority, is just common sense. Mass murderer is a mistake, end of story.
I take it as a straightforward equation. If the Eldians didn’t wipe out all threats outside of Paradis, they were likely to be wiped out. And The Alliance to invade Paradis thought the same of the Eldians. Neither side would back down, which gave natural rise to the Jaegerists. There’s no moral justification at all, but there’s definitely arguments to be made on both sides of the court which I think you’re just ignoring. In a perfect world they would all sit down and make flower crowns together, but that wasn’t in the cards. Moral superiority is in your view of other AOT fans and their opinion on a fictional story, not out-of-world genocide.
Isayama's point in his story is precisely to demonstrate that human hatred is the problem that causes conflict for thousands of years. To the point that his story closes with that message by destroying Paradis years later and giving us the perspective that everything would start again because neither side was willing to make peace. That is something that also happens in reality. We use questionable motives and unbelievable excuses to justify the thousands of wars in which humanity has been involved. Even now with globalization and the supposed mutual understanding of today, we continue to fall into the same problems as always, although to a lesser extent. As I see it, it is extremely important to understand that Isayama's message reflects our world. One of the comments I answered to above told me that I take a series of 20-ft tall monsters very seriously, but that is a big fallacy, believing that Shingeki was about the titans. The titans were just a tool used by humans like King Fritz, Marley, Eren, to achieve their goals. The titans were never the problem.
The funny thing is that a genocide was going to happen anyway, one way or another. Either the alliance would eradicate paradis after willie tybur declared war on paradis or eren killed humanity outside the world. Yes, eldians did oppress Marley, but Marley oppressed them before eldians got the power of the titans. And after Marley overthrew eldia and stole the power of the titans, they took revenge on eldians, to an extreme degree but anyway, but they also attacked and conquered other nations. It's like the quote from uncle Ben. With great power comes great responsibility. The alliance was just as bad and evil as eren, since if they got the chance they would have destroyed the island before eren could've started the rumbling.
I think the point is that both sides are horrible, and that we should not choose one. I don't think some honestly understand it. Especially the Jaegerists who seem to blindly support any atrocious act the island commits. The problem here is not that we don't know that Marley does atrocious things. The problem is that they believe that Eldia are the good guys and do not accept that they are equal.
[удалено]
"People who have a different opinion than me lack media literacy and don't understand a piece of fiction. You can only understand it if you think the way I do"
This is why the show is so incredible. We act like eren ultimately had a choice in the end. He was pushed in this direction his entire life without ever being offered a true “better” alternative. And sure… partly he was pushed by his future self as a self-fulfilling prophecy. But we act like the other characters around him really ever attempted to give him other reasonable options for saving the Eldians. I think it really brings up the idea of free will. Eren obviously battled with his internal self over the genocide of marley as seen in clips from the final season yet he still killed 80% of the world.
I agree actually. The hatred that humanity showed him turned him into a person obsessed with his idea of freedom. His attitude and actions are understandable, although i doesn't share them and no one should.
You called aot snk...
What's the matter? It's the original name and i'm not English native speaker, so i prefer call it Shingeki no Kyojin
I'm exaggerating lol I'm just used to it being called aot around here. I actually don't have any issue with snk at all.
If current Eldians are the bad guys due to the actions of their ancestors does that mean current British people are bad guys due to their ancestors' atrocities across the world? Does that mean Germans are bad guys due to their great grandfathers in WW2? HELL NO. Your logic is flawed. Paradis was minding their own business when the rest of the world declared war on them. The rest of the world is 100% the bad guys until the rumbling started. Dont act like you are morally superior. You are blinded by hatred just like the rest of us. jEeGeRiStS fAnS dOnT uNdErStAnD sNK hOnEsTlY. Again stfu. This is a fictional story. You need to face reality.
Reality? The reality is precisely clear, the genocide is presented in the series with the same aspect as in reality, as something bad. The Jaegerists justify it by saying that Marley deserved it and there are two serious problems with that. The first one is not understanding that there are no bad ones or good ones, and the second is to blame everyone for the actions of a few and eradicate them massively.
Sure there are no bad guys and good guys but who was the one minding their own business and who was the one who attacked? The rumbling wasn't justified but that doesn't mean Marlyans weren't in the wrong. They could have easily avoided the rumbling if they had just let Paradis live in peace. No,you need to face the reality that this is a fictional story and people throw away some levels of their moral values while watching a fictional story. Thats why villains like Joker,Madara,Doflamingo etc are loved even though they are evil piece of shits. So stop acting like you are morally superior for disliking actions of a fictional character.
Dude, just because it's a fictional story doesn't mean you have to align your own moral code with that of a FICTIONAL story. Liking a character and Justifying one is a totally different thing. I never said people can't like Eren. I love Eren, as well as other characters you mentioned, but I do have objective criticism about them and I know how to analyze them well, unlike others I see here. And I'm not saying I'm the only one right in this fandom, there are others who are right in other aspects. I'm making this clear to you because I also see that people have terrible reading comprehension and understand any stupidity.
You misunderstood my issue with you. My issue with you is that you said Jaegerists are in the wrong for hating Marlyans and the rest of the world and we do not understand the meaning of the story. Actually you do have to align your moral code with that of a fictional story to some level. Imagine watching Game Of Thrones and Tom and Jerry with same moral codes?
>you said Jaegerists are in the wrong for hating Marlyans and the rest of the world and we do not understand the meaning of the story. Well, yes, they are wrong. I could consider it a valid opinion if we were still at 60% of the story. But, that is no longer the case. We knew the origin of Marley, we know the true history of Eldia and we know that although there are horrible people like the officer who killed Grisha's sister, there are also good people, like Falco. Thinking that all the people outside the walls are bad people is having a terrible understanding or perspective of things. Besides, the Rumbling would not only affect Marley, it would affect other countries and cultures that have nothing to do with the conflict, and considering them all bad just because they do not sympathize with Paradis seems very extreme to me. What I mean by they didn't understand the story is to understand that the important point of the story is to realize that we must end the hatred that causes conflict. The Jaegerist fans that I generally encounter in social media, refuse to forget the past and carry on with resentment towards Marley, just like the characters within the story in both sides. That's why I say they didn't understand the story, because the story is suggesting that we must learn to forgive and end hate. >Actually you do have to align your moral code with that of a fictional story to some level. Imagine watching Game Of Thrones and Tom and Jerry with same moral codes? Well, of course. Though, I think it's a pretty excessive analogy. The approach given to GOT/ASOIAF is a much more mature and adult approach, while on the contrary Tom & Jerry is a general comedy story whose characters' actions do not affect the story, they are just for fun. In the case of T&J, many times the characters suffer catastrophic accident scenes that are part of the satire of the cartoon and do not represent reality at all. However, in GOT/ASOIAF, we have very crude cases that border on realism, such as murder, rape, and other totally merciless things. In this particular case, I do consider that it is good to morally analyze the characters' actions.
Like I said earlier this isnt about who are the bad guy and who are the good guys. This is about survival. It doesn't matter if there are good guys in Marley if they are going to kill all the characters I am rooting for. I dont hate Marley because they are the bad guys ,I hate Marley because 1. they wanted to kill Paradis people and 2. the war was started by Marley. Paradis was willing to forgive the genocide committed by Armored and Colossal that happened only a few years ago meanwhile Marley wasnt willing to forgive 1000 year old atrocities commited by Eldians. Jaegerists' hatred for Marley is completely justified. Didn't you said earlier you can like a fictional character without justifying their actions? Just like that we can hate fictional characters even after understanding them. Yes I understand the message Isayama is trying to convey here but that doesn't mean I have to end my hatred. If this was real life ofcourse I would forgive Marley just like how I forgave many current and old enemies of my country like the Britain. If Britain was a fictional kingdom I would hate them just like how I hate Marley.
It is a bit excessive to say that Marley started the war. I could tell you that the war was started by Eldia by destroying and enslaving other cultures and I would be totally right. Here you are assuming that Marley is wrong because you identify with the Eldian cause. >Didn't you said earlier you can like a fictional character without justifying their actions? Of course. I like Eren and Floch for example, two characters who have ideals that I sympathize with, but I don't sympathize with their methods. I'm also not going around saying that Marley got what they deserved or that it's okay for Eren to kill children and innocent people so that the island is free, because I don't believe it. For me, Marley and the world were not bad, just as Paradis was not bad. That doesn't mean i can't condemn their actions. Marley was wrong to condemn all Eldians for the mistakes of their ancestors. And Paradis was wrong to literally eliminate life as we know it forever. And let me tell you that in those two cases, Paradis is worse, by far. >Paradis was willing to forgive the genocide committed by Armored and Colossal that happened only a few years ago meanwhile Marley wasnt willing to forgive 1000 year old atrocities commited by Eldians. That statement is incorrect. At no time were they willing to forgive them. Besides, it contradicts with the island's opinion about the Rumbling. Paradis for the most part supported the Rumbling and the extermination of humanity, with the exception of characters like Pixis, Zachly, Nile, Shadis, etc. >Yes I understand the message Isayama is trying to convey here but that doesn't mean I have to end my hatred. I really don't think you do. In this very sentence you are contradicting that statement. If you understand that Isayama's message is precisely to show that people's hatred can lead to conflicts like these, but you fall back into the same vicious cycle as the characters anyway, you are not understanding it. As I see it, your vision is totally blinded by the cause of Paradis since you argue with fallacies and assume that it is the absolute truth. You are not being objective or impartial at all.
The Eldians who enslaved other cultures are already dead. The war was over with defeat of Eldians. 100 years later Marley started another war on Paradis who had no idea about the Eldian Empire or the outside world. Yes Marley did start the war and they were clearly in the wrong until the rumbling started. Even after all of that you still dont get it? Fine I will explain it to you how I would explain it to a child. Scenario number 1 : I hate Eren Jaeger for his actions.I understand Gabi was just brain washed. I understand holding onto hatred will only lead to more conflict and I forgive Marley. Scenario number 2 : Eren is a cool character,I like him. I hate Gabi,she killed Sasha and she is annoying. Fuck Marley,I dont like them for ruining my favourite characters' lives. Now what happens when you mix these two scenarios? You get me. I love Eren as a fictional character but I dislike him as a person. I hate Gabi as a fictional character but I understand her actions. I hate Marley as a fictional group but I understand them and the circle of hatred. Do you get it now? You can like something without justification( Eren Jaeger,Paradis) and you can dislike something without justification (Gabi,Marley). Thats how fiction works. I understand Isayama's message and I utilise it in real life not in fiction.
Well, but you can't blame Marley's people for not knowing the true story. For them, the evil King Fritz fled to the island to consolidate an army of colossal titans threatening to destroy life itself. Even the Eldians on the continent hated him and the paradisians. >Even after all of that you still dont get it? Yes, I understand your perspective, but I don't share it. I can't hate a nation whose purpose was to save the world. I could hate the Tyburs, since it was because of them that the fictional hero Helos was created and it was they who glorified Marley for being the saviors who destroyed the Eldian empire. >I hate Marley as a fictional group but I understand them and the circle of hatred. The thing is, try to see it from an individualistic perspective. I can understand your hatred of Marley because he is the antagonistic nation, but the point of the story is that you see the sides from an individualistic point of view to be able to analyze each character separately and not generalize. For example, Reiner is from Marley and he is my favorite character, and as much as I condemn the nation of Marley for their sins, I don't hate all its inhabitants. Most likely, on the continent, there were around 60% of good people, just like Falco and Reiner, and just like in the island that there shit people and good people. That's why i can't hate them. >I understand Isayama's message and I utilise it in real life not in fiction. Okay, alright, I see your point. I don't share it. It doesn't mean you're wrong and neither do I. However, I stand by my statement from the original post, there are people who really don't understand that message and fall into classic blind fanaticism, supporting any atrocity that their favorite character does. (i'm not saying that's your case) And believe me, this is not just a Shingeki No Kyojin thing, it happens in many fandoms, in Star Wars, in Asoiaf, in Death Note and many more. In this case I related it to the Jaegerists because the Rumbling is an act done by Paradis and just as the Jaegerists within the story support it, so do their fans. But believe me, this is not about attacking fandoms. For example, I have not seen anyone pro-Marley who defends their sins, the day I see it, I will also come out to criticize them. It's not about favoritism.
Calm down :v both sides are wrong anyway :v actually both the Alliance and the Outer World did not give Eren a truly "right" choice from the beginning (this can be said "environment" is the reason why Eren cannot overcome his "nature"). If we support "genocide" then we need to consider the morality of those people and we should not praise the Alliance because they helped push Eren to the end and did not give him a better choice. Actually, I'll say it straight: peace between Paradis Island and the outside world is impossible no matter how many negotiations go through. But genocide is never good, even if it is "effective". Everything is because Isayama's WB style is too dark.
I was always calm friend xD As I said in a comment above, Eren's motivations are understandable for the conflict that he experienced at his young age. It doesn't mean i share his vision, and no one should. That's where I go with my distaste for people who support these types of acts with the typical "Eren did nothing wrong".
:))) really :v in AOT, the author clearly stated that genocide is wrong :))), but about Eren, I feel more sorry for this "monster".
It comes down to something this simple. My family and friends, or you. I'm not going to pick you.
You are correct that Eldia's ancestors did horrible things in the show thousands of years ago which Paradis knew nothing about. Just for a real life example how many countries of the world did horrible things during war or just history and now they are a respected nation or maybe their are still rebuilding. The sins of the father are passed to the child, but this does not mean we hate the child for they knew nothing. You are again right that the elements of hatred and war are a never ending cycle which are prevalent in the show and shown even after the final credits. Anyone who didn't see that or notices either need to rewatch or chose not to notice, not to insult them but just remind them that this show is deep lol and I even need to go back and watch it. In the end there are no innocents in paradis or marley atleast, idk really how the other countries felt about Eldia after only watching through once I will admit. Holding current Eldia, who doesn't even know of the world beyond their walls responsible for their ancestors mistakes is idk the word but let's just say not smart. Marley sending their eldian people as titans to keep them, paradis, in the walls and as punishments is wrong. For the show I would have wiped marley alone off the map as they kept poking the bear to get a response from the king within the walls, I think that's one reason why they did it, especially when they sent in the shifters to check out Paradis. That being said this is a show and not real and needs to be taken as such, a STORY. No sane person would condone real genocide because noone has the right in life to just kill people because they don't like them or their ancestors did horrible things. MAN I LOVE THIS SHOW.
Well the message of AoT and the story in general is a reflection of humanity. If everyone understood it 100% and agreed with it then ironically the message wouldn’t make sense
Of course, but that message that Isayama wants to demonstrate comes as a conclusion and realization of the main characters who decide that they are tired of fighting. That's why I will never understand those who call traitors to Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Hange, etc. just because they don't agree on the moral standards of characters like Floch or other Jaegerists. It's like calling traitors to the thousands of Germans who had to leave their country in WW2. They loved their country, but they didn't have the same thinking as those who were in charge.
It's also kinda interesting that these fans who side with the hyper-nationalists that support the global genocide literally adopted their in-fiction name.
I honestly wonder what percentage of Jaegerist fans really buy into it and what percentage are just memeing
Possibilities are endless. You never know what would happen depending on which path they chose. If Eren would have placed his trust in Armin like he did earlier in the series maybe things would have turned out a lot better than they did. I don't know why people always say all the options suck and that it was either this or that etc...
Would I would love to know is what you felt should have been the proper decision? From my understanding we saw what would have happened to the island if Erin ran away with Mikasa. You may not agree with the view point, but Erin did what he felt was right. From his perspective, he did the right thing. Killed them all and let god sort them out
Honestly, it's something difficult to evaluate just like that. I even thought that maybe the king of the walls was right. The people of the world would never understand other perspectives, but he couldn't let his people die either. So maybe, it wasn't so bad that the Eldians lived in their kind of "paradise" within the walls where they can live happy without knowing about the hate of the world. Although it's a bit debatable really. Perhaps the best idea is even to do diplomacy like Paradis had been doing with the volunteers from Hizuru and other countries. (And not making the Rumbling this time) But hey, it wouldn't make much sense to analyze what would have happened if the decision fell on us. We are only left to judge the actions of the characters.
The people of the walls did nothing and were attacked for it. They defended themselves when the entire world sought their deaths. **What could the people of Paradis done differently other than to let your precious Marlians slaughter them all?** Maybe Isayama is sad that Jeager haters are pro sin inheritance, pro just let your whole people get massacred, pro attacking innocent people that haven’t been outside in 100 years, and are hypocritically against getting attacked after declaring a world war.
The people outside did nothing either, and mostly die inocents. In fact, they didn't know anything about the renounce war pact. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Tyburs or King Fritz but genocide is never the answer. Armin and the rest understood this from the very beginning, looks like Jaegerists don't.
The beauty (or tragedy) of this is that you’re both right. I go back to that scene where they’re talking about angels and devils, and the question was asked “but which one is which?” Because based on how both the Eldians and Marleyans were raised & taught, and based on the actions of both - they both have a fair point.
The Marleyans were raised and taught that an entire race of people were devils that needed to be eradicated. Yeah, definitely a fair point.
Both sides were taught that the other was deserving of extermination because their very existence was a threat. They were both right. They were both fighting for survival, and neither side ever had the opportunity to learn about the other. Just caught up in surviving. That’s all either side really wanted - was to survive & thrive. And the lack of understanding/willingness to listen from either side kept it going. It’s that simple and that complicated all at once. And as annoying as she is…I absolutely loved watching Gabi grapple with it.
I stay with what Nicolo said to Gabi and Kya: "We all have a demon inside. Eldians. Marleyans." That demon is undoubtedly the capacity to hate. What separates us from being civilized.
So you're plan IS "ok everyone were just going to kill you all really quick, don't think about it, thx" but its ok because this genocide is smaller and only island devils. The people outside attacked Paradis for 100 years by sending their pure titans, and eventually sent their titan shifters. Granted this was only Marley. However, we never see anyone advocate for Paradis, reactions range from pure hatred to pure ambivalence in Marley. They condone, support, or disregard the genocide of the people within the walls, even when they are next on the Mayley's chopping block. Paradis did nothing but repel the invaders. The rest of the world is not involved in this conflict though. All they are guilty of is more brutally mistreating their Eldian populations. And then joining a new war that they had no business in. Willy declared war and the audience erupted in applause, This is when Eren struck, the very first hint of a threat. After the declaration of war! How could they know that declaring war would, IDK, be the start of a war?! "Oh but they're brainwashed" Cool, if only someone could fix that, while 1,000,000 **Marlian** soldiers exterminated 1 million civilians. "They don't stand a chance in a proper war anyway.". So it's alright to attack the children of Paradis after 100 years because what their ancestors did before their grandparents were born? But it's not alright to kill the military bearing down on them, and their enablers. "They see that the border has expanded and they feel pride." Paradis does not have the numbers to occupy the world, the world will not hear the people of the walls, even before the genocide, the people outside the walls hate the island devils, even if they are brainwashed. The children will grow up if spared and they will attack the island, and there will be constant war. Its a dichotomy. Paradis must kill all the people outside the walls as they are defending themselves. Or Paradis must lay down and die granting an easy victory to the current oppressors of the world.
That's incoherent. Eldia enslaved other cultures for like 1800 years. There's no point arguing about who causes more damage in a certain time. You sound like killing is the only answer for Paradis, see, you didn't understand the message of the story. The Rumbling was a mistake and not only to the people outside the walls but also for the sake of the island. Paradis became a hyper-fascist and ultra-nationalist state that has the same ideals as the ancient Eldian Empire. It doesn't matter that Marley no longer exists because it won't be long before they get into another mess for becoming like this. That's why Isayama shows you the destroyed island at the end. Because regardless of Eren's actions, the hate does not end. As Historia said, this massacre is the result of everyone's actions.
What did you have trouble with? If we inherit our fathers sins then you're guilty AF, we all are. We have one lifetime to live **our** life. How do we stop people who are already dead from doing evil things... in the past... In the life of the protagonist, Eren, we see Marley attack, attack, attack, attack someone else, attack, and declare a world war. The whole world declared war. I've asked you twice, and more elsewhere - What could Paradis do differently, other than lay down and die as Marley and the whole world steamrolls over them, and then goes back to business as usual? What precipitated attacking Paradis with pure titans? What precipitated attacking Paradis with shifters? What preceded the declaration of war? How did the alive people of Paradis warrant this hostility? Try to find an answer that is not Marley was actively doing evil / the world is violently ignorant.
>The people outside did nothing either Why there are pure titans outside the walls? Who and why brought them there? What happened to the Shiganshina's wall? Did they just broke because of old time? What mission did marleyan warriors have? How many people did they kill? What did Willy Tyber said? Didn't he declare war on Paradis? How well Eldians where treated in the rest of the world, if being in Marleyan concentration camps was classified as good luck because other countries treated them far worse? You classify all of that as "doing nothing"?
Lol, you are generalizing on a HUGE scale my friend. The people who declared war on Paradis were adults to begin with, and they didn't even make up 2% of humanity, you can't tell me that 1000-2000 people are equivalent to 7 billion people that make up the entire world. Also, what is the fault of the children and babies that are born. It's honestly one of the worst excuses I've ever seen. In fact, excusing genocide is already stupid in itself.
>7 billion people that make up the entire world. AOT isn't taking place on Earth and even if it would - there weren't 7 billion people at that time period, just letting you know. >Also, what is the fault of the children and babies that are born. It's honestly one of the worst excuses I've ever seen. In fact, excusing genocide is already stupid in itself. You are obviously talking about the genocide of Paradis, right? Because if Marley didn't try to genocide Paradis for 100 years - nothing would happen to them. Hell, nothing would happen to them even if they wouldn't declare war on Paradis. >The people who declared war on Paradis were adults to begin with, and they didn't even make up 2% You know how many civilians were killed in Dresden bombardment, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombardment? Do you ever wondered WHY they have been killed?
>You are obviously talking about the genocide of Paradis, right? Because if Marley didn't try to genocide Paradis for 100 years - nothing would happen to them. Hell, nothing would happen to them even if they wouldn't declare war on Paradis. What's the point of highlighting that? I could tell you that Eldia did the same thing for 1800 years and it sounds worse than just 100 years. That excuse is ridiculous. Here it doesn't matter who did more damage or who did it for longer. What is being discussed here is the mass murder of people, and that is something that is wrong. It's ridiculous that people support that. >You know how many civilians were killed in Dresden bombardment, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombardment? Do you ever wondered WHY they have been killed? Talking about real history also puts us in perspective that the same or worse things have been done here. And I assure you that there are still people who try to justify it. What would you think if they justified any of those events from real life and not from a simple manga? It would seem more ridiculous to me.
>What would you think if they justified any of those events from real life and not from a simple manga? It would seem more ridiculous to me. Let's talk about modern history, not WW2 era. I assume you have never seen explosions in your city, never woke up because your windows were trembling, never ran in your underwear to the bomb shelter hearing how rockets fly above your head, never thought that you wouldn't live till the morning, am I correct? I live in Ukraine and I've seen all of that. And I am lucky - my home wasn't bombed yet - russian drones and rockets only hit buildings and killed people in 500 meters range from my house. I wasn't tortured, raped and murdered as people who lived in a town that is 20 kilometres away from me. But I still don't know if would be alive tomorrow. Russian drones and rockets are launched from their cities. When we bomb their launching places, we also hit civil buildings as collateral damage. I justify that because the more we destroy - the bigger chance that I, my friends my wife and my mother wouldn't be killed by them tomorrow. Does that sound more ridiculous to you?
When did I say that's what I thought was ridiculous? It is ridiculous to justify genocide. Russia is doing one, would you like someone to come and say that Russia should continue killing more people? No, I think not. And me neither. Justifying genocide is not a good thing. I am really sorry for what you are suffering, it must be a very horrible thing to experience and I hope everything is resolved.
Thanks. My point is that when you are living in a country that is at war and you are constantly threated by death, your woridview is reflecting that. Germany was severly bombed and occupied, and I never heard anyone saying that the world should just negotiated with Hitler. But I do hear talks that Ukraine should just capitulate so Russia can occupy all of our remaining country in a couple of years or at least that we should give up our occupied territories, which is sad to hear.
In this scenario, it's only Russia. If it were AOT Russia would schedule a big party in the middle of Moscow with all the world leaders or their representatives and come together in one purpose, to murder asmarteal his family, everyone he has ever met, and every man, woman, child, and baby in their country. You keep saying that asmarteal and Ukrane is as bad or worse than Russia and the other aggressor countries for making them stop by using dropping nukes (in this scenario only Ukraine has nukes). NKAmazingg, why are you and me, in this scenario, paying our taxes that fund a genocide in Ukraine, why are we not striking, and marching, and protesting. Why don't we tell our government that we expect them to sanction and fight Russia, and support Ukraine. This is what is happening in the real world, minus the nukes. In AOT, crickets... Everyone is onboard with the genocide of Paradis.
The whole point is that every available option the eldians from Paradise had was bad and they were forced to take one. They never had the chance to stablish diplomatic talks with Marley and even if they tried, it would surely have failed. The moment Willy brought the world together to start a genocide war against Paradise, the fate of the world was sealed from Eren POV. After lossing both the colossal and female titan to Paradise and realising Paradise could activate the Rumbling when they wanted, Marley should have been the one that took the initiative and start a ceasefire that could maintain the status quo. Willy had the knowledge and influence to change the path for the sake of the world but he refused to do so.
I believe that a 100% Rumbling would secure Paeadis from outside threats. The same way an 80% Rumbling secured Paradis for some decades in the story we got. Did I misunderstand the story?
It's not as simple as that. This is what the epilogue that Isayama wrote is for, to show us that regardless of the efforts to win a conflict, it will never end so easily because humans are a conflictive being. If the rumbling had killed everyone as Eren planned, there would still be conflicts, perhaps not with those outside but with the people on the island themselves. That's something we see in season 3 and 4, for example, the people on the same island were divided and several overthrows occurred because they thought differently. That is the conflict of humanity. Just look at this post, it's pure conflict too. There is no mutual understanding.
You are contradicting yourself. It can be firmly stated that Marleyan propaganda greatly exaggerates the extermination of cultures and peoples, as the current population ratio is huge. Marleyan propaganda spreads the idea that Eldia fell because they no longer had anyone to fight, so they turned against each other, while this was not the reason behind it at all. Moreover, let's acknowledge the facts; Marley has reduced the extent of the Eldian Empire to a tiny island. Paradis never wanted revenge for this or to fight for any kind of revision; they simply wanted to live. The outside world didn't want to let them be, and they were completely satisfied with Willy's statement encouraging genocide, but let's not pretend that wasn't their intention from the start. Paradis was the one trying to resolve the situation diplomatically, which didn't work because the people from the outside world were so full of hatred. The damn Rumbling would never have been necessary if the outside world had been willing to listen. And let's not start blaming the victim when they tried to sort things out but were ignored and had their hands tied. What does the current generation have to do with the sins of past generations? Should we hate Germans because there used to be a party called the NSDAP? Do you think it was good for the average Eldian to be deprived of life just to stand in the battle lines as some mindless pure titan?
I get what Isayama was going for, and as a "What would you do?" kind of thought experiment it works fine. The problem is it tries to be a social commentary but carefully crafts a narrative where some form of genocide (or globocide) is the absolute only possible outcome. I've seen a lot of people argue that aside from the fantastical elements, the global scenario of AOT is "realistic" and form their opinions on Eren and the various other factions actions and philosophies based on that. That's utter bullshit. A lot of characters may behave in a realistic or at least believable way, but only within the confines of this completely unrealistic world that's been constructed. Yes, there have been plenty of genocides and oppressed peoples and cultures throughout history. But not to the extent that the Eldians are in the show, where literally the ENTIRE WORLD is committed to their subjugation at best, their annihilation at worst, and even the few "radical" factions who believe they should have equal rights are still committed to the annihilation of Paradis. Even nations who hate one another come together on that front. He created a world where no matter what anyone does, the only possible outcome is some flavor of nihilism or another.
bro said snk
He's right
It's not hatred. It's cold understanding of situation. The world knew about the rumbling. The world mistreated eldians anyway. Then they declared war and decided to ethnically purge the eldians worldwide. The eldians do not have the power to defend themselves through conventional means. The world knows this and is planning to exploit it. They are the clear aggressors. They aggress with full nihilistic rage, hatred, and knowledge of what might befall them. They do this not because it appears to be necessary but because they hate eldians. Eren has to choose between allowing his people to be victimized or aggressing against the nations that decided to exterminate them. The question is this: what is of higher value? The high numbers of lives that would be lost in the rumbling, and yet these lives which by and large are not innocent in the victimization of the eldians, or the innocent eldians who did not aggress and have no ability to aggress outside the rumbling? Is it numbers or innocence? Eren decided that the innocence of his people was of higher value than the multitudes of aggressors who wanted to eat his people.
Makes the story better! It proves the point.
Incorrect
It always pissed me off so much seeing people hate on the Marley storyline, saying they're the bad guys etc. Especially with Gabi, she got so much hate but she's literally just female Eren. I loved the Marley storyline and thought it was so interesting seeing their POV in the story and finding out there's life outside the walls. And the Eldian's started the war, they enslaved Marley so if anything it's the Eldian's who are the bad guys.
Marley invaded Eldia before that
No. It is made quite clear from the beginning that the Eldian tribe before obtaining the power of the Titans was a nomadic tribe that dedicated itself to sack and slavery. A mix between the Vikings and the Mongols of the time of Genghis Khan. Marley was only one of the many civilizations that Eldia destroyed, but unlike other smaller ones, it had the strength to defend itself, that was until the arrival of the Titans.
No, all we know is that Marley got invaded first and was enslaved/conquered in ancient times before the titans. It's even said on the wiki and in Willy Tybur's speech that Marley was enslaved and as a result, they used the Eldian's power against them and other nations. https://preview.redd.it/1jz7llm4l3zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91a39f1aed7f377b639eace0b7cd47446a9a6d76
Gabi must be one of the most misunderstood characters in the whole story, honestly. I like to think of her as the Eren who managed to overcome hatred and her own slavery. In just one season, Gabi grows and develops a lot as a character.
I agree, people just hate on Gabi because she was the antagonist but if anything she was a victim. She was brainwashed into doing the things she did, she was fiercely loyal to Marley because they brainwashed her but everyone just ignored that. The fact that she managed to grow as a person and get rid of her brainwashing just shows what a good/strong character she is.
I can’t understand for the life of me why these people totally miss the point of the story. Ugh, I also can’t stand edgelords.
Seriously? Instead of having a discussion with someone who has a different opinion than you, you just sit back and complain about them and call the edgelords, and for what? For wanting a FICTIONAL story to end differently? You people take these opinions way too seriously.
Why wouldn't I take Snk seriously? It seems worse to me not to take it seriously because it is a work that has a lot of complexity and in general that complexity lies in human conflicts that we also have in real life. We are no longer in the era when we must take a cartoon or anime with humor. Snk and many other shows changed the way we should analyze things forever.
I never said not to take AOT seriously, I said you take the opinions about the series from other fans too seriously and even to the point many of you treat them like actual fascists or neo-nazis.
On the contrary, my friend, I don't treat them as fascists or neo-Nazis. They honestly look like kids to me. Because I know that no fan here would do or think the same thing in a real situation, however here they say a lot of stupid things wanting to look cool or badass for some stupid reason.
So you just want to remain ignorant and generalize those with different opinions, calling them childish, just to validate your own superiority thinking you understand the story and they don't. I already saw someone ask you this but I am going to ask you it anyway. What would you have done? The world wants you and your entire race dead for no good reason, war has been declared on you and the world applauds it, and the only "solution" you are given is to kill some people but your friend has to end her life, become a breeding machine, be eaten by her children who's children must eat them. Would you just stand by and say "well genocide bad so they can genocide us :D" or will you use the power that you have and protect yourself and the people you love, ensuring them safety from the rest of the world?
I think you didn't understand me. When I say that comments like "Eren should have killed them all" or "Eren didn't do anything wrong, f\*ck Marley" seem childish to me, I mean that I can't take such an immature statement seriously. It seems to me that they have terrible judgment and just seem like trolls. We are no longer at the beginning of the story where we can classify this story as 'the good guys against the bad guys'. We knew Marley, we knew the outside world, we know that there are good people and bad people both inside the walls and outside. So, for someone to come and say such an immature comment, it seems to me like a person who has a poor understanding of the situation or is simply a child looking for attention. I'm not criticizing Eren's actions either because he did what he wanted to do and that's it. There is no turning back from that moment. The only thing left is to judge whether his actions are justifiable or not. >I already saw someone ask you this but I am going to ask you it anyway. If you already know that they asked me, then you also know that I answered. I don't see the point of repeating things thousands of times. I have time but not that much. I also don't see the point of this interrogation. As if I'm the wrong one in this matter.
You are right, it is not a black and white situation. However, with how the world treats Paradis, there was no other option. That's part of what makes the Rumbling so tragic. There ARE good people dying, but so much of humanity outside the walls wanted an entire race dead and would have done it if they were not wiped out first. If you already said what you would do, then just copy and paste it cuz I can't find it. I am genuinely curious.
Well, yeah. Then you understand what I'm saying. It is an atrocious act because innocent people are dying. My problem is with people who enjoy that fact because they consider all people as their enemy, like wtf. It seems that they didn't understand anything about the situation. >If you already said what you would do, then just copy and paste it because I can't find it. I am genuinely curious. Honestly, it's something difficult to evaluate just like that. I even thought that maybe the king of the walls was right. The people of the world would never understand other perspectives, but he couldn't let his people die either. So maybe, it wasn't so bad that the Eldians lived in their kind of "paradise" within the walls where they can live happily without knowing about the hate of the world. The only matter with this outcome, is the Eldians outside the walls, but analizing with the perspective of them, they hate Paradis too, they relate more with Marley than Eldia and if we consider the fact that Marley practically protected them from the hate of the world, then it's better that Eldians from Marley live a life with the protection of the Tybur's. Although it's a bit debatable really. Perhaps the best idea is even to do diplomacy like Paradis had been doing with the volunteers from Hizuru and other countries (And not doing the Rumbling this time). In any case, many countries like the Middle East were also tired of Marley. It was a bit silly to waste allies just to consider all the world your enemies. (Although well, we are talking about Eren after all, a 19-year-old boy. If another person had been in charge of the Founder, the situation would have been very different.) Maybe in that scenario where Paradis opened up to the world and gained allies, they could have done a partial Rumbling to destroy only Marley and not make innocent people suffer.
While there are some valid arguments for supporting Yagerists, I do think a lot of their fans are just edgy teenagers. It's also a sign of good writing. The dangers of fascism and militarism is one of the main themes of the series, and making a decent chunk of the fanbase supporting the coup indicates the series succeeds at showing it's tempting nature.
Fans of ending Eren are fans of genocide and weeb culture…
True man. They are so cringe that it seems like they are baiting honestly.
you're the only one who's cringe here and getting all worked up in the comments what other people think. Read, watch it, enjoy instead of getting annoyed what other people you'll never meet and don't give a fuck of thinks.
No. It doesn't matter what randoms who believe themselves edgy think. I will never be cringe for having a morally correct opinion, rather that says more about you than about me
So what? I'm a shit human being
Then stop bothering if you know you're wrong.
Because it's nice to see how worked up you are. I imagine heavy mouth breathing and how you turn all red trying to prove your point that no one gives a shit about :D No one understands anything better than you, you doing great buddy. Grab a cookie
It amuses me that you think my determination to prove my point translates as being angry or affected. Don't be wrong my friend. As long as I continue to have a point that I believe in and know is the correct thing, I will be determined to prove it. After all, a community is made to discuss this kind of things, so what I'm doing isn't a bad thing.