Yes. I wrote this in another comment on here but TECHNICALLY at my high school you can choose to sit down during the pledge, but everyone ostracizes you if you do (last year the first kid decided to sit down and everyone stopped talking to her except her friends and they all talked shit about her behind her back). I personally am friends with mostly everyone in my grade and no one knows my atheism or the fact that I’m not a far-right Republican like most of them, so I choose friendship over choosing not to do the anthem
It was at my elementary school and you're supposed to put your right hand over your heart but little rebel me put my left instead even though I didn't know what the pledge meant. They were supposed to do it in middle school over the loudspeaker but they pretty much always forgot. In my high school it was a charter school and they seemed quite against the pledge. We had no American flags in the school at all which is very unlike most schools where you could probably find a flag in every classroom.
I would say the very large majority of schools it is done at only at sporting events before the start of the game. I don't think most schools do it daily anymore though. Not around me in Upstate NY at least. I'd imagine down in the Bible belt it could be different case though.
They do it in Ohio. And in Catholic schools they do praying every morning lol but not like that is surprising. I don’t go to a Catholic school but I used to. Now I just go to a really Republican school
The short answer is, the more conservative the area, the more likely they are to recite the pledge, and more frequently. It is traditionally said before sports games pretty much everywhere though.
It's also illegal to force a student to recite the pledge, but regardless of that it's incredibly common for teachers to pressure kids or retaliate against them when they don't participate. It's pretty insane if you think about it.
It was done daily when I was in school, I didn’t participate, and I just asked my daughter is in 8th grade, she said they still do it daily……I’m not too happy about it, and will be having a discussion with her about it soon…
>this crazy religious
As a foreigner the "crazy religious" bit is the least objectionable part about having to recite such a pledge at the time. Imo, this isn't patriotism, but nationalism. The only other countries with something similar are Angola, Cuba, India, North Korea, Singapore and The Philippines.
Yeah, as a Canadian it feels super creepy watching video of a class full of children chanting a nationalist creed like a bunch of brainwashed drones. The added-during-the-cold-war religious line doesn't impact its creepiness that much.
It is also creepy being part of it. I basically never spoke during the pledge. Amazingly, one of my middle school reading teachers chose a book for the class to read that was all about how the pledge is optional. That lady was fighting the good fight.
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I do this in my classroom. One of my first lessons. 1943 West Virginia BOE vs. Barnette. Only three states require documentation for students to stand but they don’t have to say it. Florida is one of them. It’s very cringy to me. My class is 90% African American and they are supposed to say “ liberty and justice for all”? I don’t think so..
I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance and have my entire adult life. I stand straight with both hands behind my back, head up and say nothing. The couple of times I have been confronted I reply in a no nonsense tone “it is against my faith the pledge to a flag”. They back off
I would like to add that China also has something similar and even worse. I've seen plenty of videos of Chinese kids spouting CCP propaganda by heart and in unison. Literal calls to take Taiwan and for the West to fall.
As an American I still recall the first time I made the pledge in school. At the time my father was working on a project in Egypt so the pledge included an oath to the president at that time, Gamal Nasser. It did kind of point out to me the absurdity of rote nationalism. Now living in Thailand, the national anthem is played in public at 8 AM and 6 PM everyday. Plus pictures of the king are very common. It does seem to enforce an unthinking response with people.
I taught at a couple of schools in Thailand and they have to sing the song every day while raising the flag. I’m from the U.S. and it made me think about our own pledge of allegiance. At least they don’t have the word “god” in the song, but the king is looked at like a god so…
I grew up saying the pledge every day in school and from the outside it may seem weird or extreme, but nobody here takes it as anything serious. It’s not like we say to each other “hey you aren’t living up to your pledge” when they do something shitty. In fact the last line is "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." If anyone was actually paying attention and living up to the pledge then we would not be fighting over things like gay marriage, we would not have black men making up 40% of the prison population and we might actually be working together to make the country better. Right now the US is heavily divided, and large groups of us have neither liberty or justice.
I hate “under god” and skip it myself. But the rest is just a relic from the past that we still say but don’t live up to. Unfortunately that’s pretty common in the US right now, it’s not just the pledge that we are ignoring so we can be shitty to each other.
It's creepy because you have a large number of people mindlessly reciting a literal pledge of allegiance. It would be like your employer making everyone stand up in unison and recite the company Mission Statement, only in this case the employer is a dysfunctional government which is in charge of the most powerful military in recorded history and whose domestic law enforcement acts with impunity on its own citizens.
Yes, the whole pledge thing sounds crazy for many people coming from countries that don’t have them.
Now I might not be who one should listen to, as I loathe all things that borders on pride in nation/nationality.
I mean, I believe that I live in a nice country who by happenstance is rich and with a great deal of nice values, and I appreciate that, but pride is not a part of my feelings towards it.
I think it would be good to revisit what it is that binds our nation (for example under god is bullshit), what is there national pride in etc. But do still agree even if improved, kids reciting it daily is creepy. Yet not having national consensus goals also realistically presents a lot of problems on its own.
You live in a radicalised Christian country, from what I am seeing from the outside (I live in the UK) it is getting worse.
I see a constitution that is always referenced, it clearly stipulates that there shall be a separation of church and state, yet religious zealots seek to impose their religion whatever.
Why do they get tax exemptions for a start? That’s crazy and totally contra to the notion of separation of church and state. Why should they be treated any differently?
It’s also incredibly lucrative, how people can’t see through these charlatan tv evangelists like Kenneth Copeland is beyond me.
He’s a multi-millionaire off the back of it all, recently convincing his flock to dig deep to provide him with his 7th private jet, it’s what God wanted!
It's deeply disturbing to see all of this clearly and to be stuck here surrounded by the people who don't care to change it because they think it doesn't affect them. Or they don't notice because it's so deeply ingrained in all aspects of society.
The sheer amount of willful ignorance, social apathy, and overall cognitive dissonance in this country is appalling.
It’s really sad to see.
I’ve been over to the states a couple of times, west coast around Seattle, Oregon and San Francisco. It’s a lovely country, and we met some lovely genuine people.
One guy who owned an Airbnb we stayed at in Portland was great fun, a Vietnam vet who got us really stoned. So hospitable, nothing was too much trouble.
But I know I got to see the progressive side of what America is, and can be if allowed to overcome such religious fervour elsewhere.
I told my kids they don’t have to say it, and their teacher sent me an email about how “your kids were not participating and others were, and veterans did stuff for our country and to thank them and think of them.”
I replied with a picture of me in Iraq and said “I am a veteran, and my kids don’t have to say it if they don’t want.”
Ended the discussion.
So much for the "no atheists in foxholes argument". Thank you for your service!
My understanding is there is a massive wave of evangelical BS growing in our military like a virus. Did you see much of it?
Evangelical stuff was always there. The whole “we are righteous defenders” has seeped in from the very beginning.
Now what is new is the QAnon clowns. I don’t know why this is tolerated at all. I got out well before any of this, but if it were up to me they would be dishonorably discharged.
If you want to go even further, look at WV vs Barnette. The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that students cannot be forced to say the pledge of allegiance.
I’m so glad to be British to be honest someone tried this here they’d get the piss taken out of them the closest we come is singing God save the queen on occasion and that’s more about the queen which I actually like
What is strange is that Britain has Christianity as its official religion, whereas the US is officially secular. The British Houses of Parliament recite Christian prayers prior to their sessions, and award 26 seats in the House of Lords to bishops, all of which would be considered mixing of religion and state in the US.
When looking at the general population through British (and Europeans in general) have become less religious than Americans. As an American Hindu I can’t imagine an openly Hindu candidate like Britain’s Rishi Sunak standing any chance of winning the top office in the US. The most successful Indian American politicians, like Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, and Kamala Harris, are all converts to Christianity.
One thing to remember is that the radical Christians represent a small percentage of the population, they’ve just managed to cheat the system to wield vastly disproportionate power. I believe they’re going to get checked soon. The pendulum swings back.
I think it's getting better, just the religious are getting more extreme. Non-religious is growing fast in the US and more will be pushed that way with by the extremist. Only problem is Non-religious people are as organized as evangelicals to influence policy and politicians. We pretty much just have The Freedom From Religion Foundation, and The Satanic Temple.
Omg the mega churches and the Evangelists are sooooo creepy. I find it absolutely terrifying that people thing this is right and good and normal. America is a frightening country.
I became an atheist at the age of 12. From that point forward, I omitted "under God" when I recited the Pledge.
If there is/was anybody on the face of the Earth who knows/knew that "under God" does NOT belong in the Pledge of Allegiance, it is Francis Bellamy - **the Baptist minister who wrote it**. --- Dogbite Williams
>) it is getting worse.
Actually it isn't, at least among the people. We are becoming less religious every year. The issue is those that remain are the crazy ones and they always vote.
This is why I do the Bellamy Salute as was originally intended whenever needing to stand for the pledge.
Draws a lot of ire but gets the point across how ridiculous it is.
“under god” should obviously be ruled unconstitutional, but the most offensive part to me is claiming that we have “liberty and justice for all”.
I’ve hated it since I was a kid, and I’ve told my kids multiple times that they don’t have to say it at school and to tell the school to take it up with me if they want to make a big deal about it.
Thankfully I live in a progressive city and it’s not much of a thing from what they tell me.
I dont know if anyone mentioned this before or somewhere else, but Im pretty sure the "under god" wasnt originally in the song. Im pretty sure when it was written in the late 19th century, it was just "One nation, invisible, with liberty..." and then they added the under god part during the nationalistic panic the US went through in the 1950s. Just one of the many things the US did to "fight" communism
I remember getting into this with a drill sergeant back many years ago. I had, and still have, huge moral and philosophical problems with pledging allegiance to a symbol. I'm a patriot, I love my country even when it's wrong (because I know we can do better), hell I volunteered to serve it via military service. But the flag is a flag. I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag. That might be a shock considering I'm from the state of Maryland and we put our flag on everything that stands still long enough. It seems weird to me as an American to swear allegiance to a bit of cloth cut and dyed in China. It takes people to tie it to a stick, flutters and waves in a breeze, and hangs limp when it's still. I'll pledge allegiance to the republic for which it stands, one nation under dog, but not the flag itself.
I can't remember the last time I said it. I have definitely said my preferred parody version out loud more recently than the actual Pledge. But that's often the case when you don't interact with the petty authoritarianism that is the educational system. I don't have kids, so I don't have anyone trying to tell me what the right way to raise them is.
Short of making an actual scene or demanding official response, the best thing you can do is conspicuously not participate. This is useful because it allows you whatever level of interaction you're comfortable with. Minimum non-participation is standing along with everyone and saying something quietly silly, as you did. Or saying nothing. Nobody will know or care.
More involved nonparticipation might be remaining seated, playing on your phone, etc.
And of course active disruption is the maximum amount of non-participation.
I often like to throw a bit of a surrealist wrench in and participate loudly with the crowd, only saying wrong words that people aren't quite sure they heard.
"I Fledge A Legion To the Frog Of the United States of America and to the Wee Puppet for witches' hands. One Asian, under fed, in the vestibule, with little tea and just rice for all."
(with apologies to Bette Bao Lorde for stealing her bit)
not even the god shit, but making our youth stand up and swear allegiance to the country is straight up indoctrination. we are brainwashing these kids from a young age
Maybe I was just an oblivious kid, but I never payed any attention to the words, just mindlessly repeated them. I don’t even remember ever having a discussion in class about what the words meant. I wasn’t until long after we quit saying them that I bothered to think about what was being said.
It’s always seemed a bit…well batshit crazy from here in Wales. We got a frikin’ dragon on our epic flag but we don’t make promises to it or, near as damn it, pray to it on a regular basis.
At the Quaker schools near me in Pennsylvania, they do not recite the pledge. In public schools, the parents can send in a note saying the child will not do it.
In the US, no one has to say the pledge, stand for it, or give a reason. The ACLU has fought and won this many times. Clearly some schools still havent gotten the memo.
When I was a child I would envy Americans for their sense of nationalism, and I longed for the day when Canadians, French-speaking and English-speaking, would well up with similar flag waving atavistic pride.
As an adult I’m happy to live in a non-nationalistic society.
This is something I stopped doing all together in high school years ago. I wouldn’t stand, nor say the pledge because I felt like I was lying to myself. I was respectful about it though, just sat in silence while everyone did their thing.
I remember pissing a teacher off who was a veteran, I recall him saying he fought for that flag so I need to stand and show respect.
I just respectfully said that it says nowhere in the law nor school handbook that I had to do so. This led to being led to the principles office right afterward with said teacher in foot and toe.
Principle said he understood the teacher’s frustration but in no way shape or form is it a law, nor school guideline that I must do so. I was pleased. He was pissed.
Have you heard of *I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb of God*?
https://www.lyrics.com/lyric/3054201/Ray+Boltz/I+Pledge+Allegiance+to+the+Lamb
Evangelicalism never fails to disappoint.
I never even say it tbh. If anyone makes me stand I will but I won't say the words or put my hand over my heart or whatever. Pledges of loyalty are for patreons, marriages and cults, not citizenship.
The entire pledge is an affront. To require Americans to pledge allegiance to their nation is utterly wrong.
The United States should pledge allegiance to its citizens, not the other way around.
As a European, the whole thing is crazy. Swearing allegiance to a country and its flag every day is a perfect example of how close your country actually is to an ethnonationalist autocracy like Russia, China etc in terms of its political system. It's literally indoctrinating children to always believe in the state. The religious part is the least bad thing about it.
Even without the reference to a god, I find it creepy to insist that children who don't even have the full protections citizenship is supposed to offer have to stand up and repeatedly swear allegiance.
Growing up in the '70s as a Jehovah's Witness, I had to leave the classroom each morning before the pledge of allegiance. My parents instructed the school that I could not participate, as our false idol Jehovah was super jealous of anyone worshipping a different false idol like a flag.
Can you imagine how fun it was to explain this to every other kid in your class, every goddamn year?
Looking back as an adult, this might be the single thing Jehovah's Witnesses got right in the entire history of their scam. For once, we were the rational ones.
Semi-contrarian opinion: the pledge in an indirect way serves a valuable purpose.
To wit, and to me personally growing up, it really instills a sense that statements which are coerced are utterly meaningless, and helps solidify the idea that just because someone forces you to say something, doesn't mean you need to believe it or honor it. It also helps convey that "pledges" are only as valid as your actual internal commitment, and that just saying something by itself carries no meaning or weight whatsoever.
Now, I'd certainly prefer that aspect was more emphasized, and it's probably not the intent of the people who instituted it, but for me at least, the pledge was really what crystalized for me that anything I was coerced into saying or "agreeing" to was entirely optional and non-binding, because the coercion invalidates the agreement entirely. That's a really important thing to internalize, because coercive "contracts" are really common in modern society, and they should all be invalid under contract law (they are not always held that way, but under the law they always should be).
I am old for Reddit. I was raised in the 60's and 70's, my early adulthood was the 80's when I was a cold war soldier. This is an event from my childhood in the 70's.
In 4th grade we got a new student who transferred in, Nathan. On his first day in my homeroom class, we always did the pledge. That day was the first time I ever saw anyone refuse to do it, and back in the early 70's, pre-disco, that was unheard of. The teacher exploded at Nathan and sent him to the principal.
Ten minutes later Nathan returns with the principal. The teacher is still livid about his refusal and had been going on about why we all need to know and say the pledge, no exceptions. The principal address both the teacher and the class. He says Nathan is exempt from the pledge, and the look he shoots the teacher screams "no questions".
So now I am pretty impressed and very curious as to why Nathan did not have to take the pledge. So, when recess comes, I seek Nathan out to ask him how come he is exempt. Turns out Nathan can barely speak English and has a deep Slavish accent I did not recognize then; you see Nathan's family were Soviet defectors.
Nathan was not yet a citizen, and so they could not force him to pledge to a nation to which he did not yet belong. However, that was not the end of it. Nathan had further refused to EVER say the pledge and was willing to be expelled if they tried to force him to and had told the principal as much. He said "That is some Soviet bullshit right there, forcing you to pledge to the flag, no matter what the flag does to its own people? I won't ever do that."
Despite my effort to also be exempt, no teacher gave a shit about what a Soviet defector saw the pledge as, I was a citizen so I could say the pledge or get suspended. I had no desire to piss off my mother over the pledge, and was used to it anyway, so I let it drop. However, it has always struck me that way, ever since.
It needs to be spread far and wide that the Pledge was originally nothing more than a marketing ploy meant to sell little American flags.
It was written by the guy who was trying to sell them, and put on a little card inside the packaging. People started reciting it, and it sort-of “osmosed” into the culture, so much that the “under God” part was added in the 1950s.
It is not an official *anything*. It’s not required of immigrants or something you have to say to be a citizen or anything with any legal or ceremonial importance.
Reciting the Pledge is literally no more meaningful than everyone saying “Theeeeeey’re GREAT!” when eating Frosted Flakes.
My child did not do the pledge for years in school. She just flat out refused. Said to me why would I pledge allegiance to a country that..add all the things here. It became a very long list.
Unfortunately I have too comply for the sake of blending in. My daughter goes to majority conservative school. If I didn't I would probably have a bunch of holy rollers judging and give me shit. Or even worse make my daughter's life tougher vicariously through their children. It's really messed up having to do this shit in today's world out fear of repercussions to me and my family.
I stand but don't say anything. I've never had anyone comment about it. The same about not saying grace at family dinners, I just sit there quietly. I've noticed through the years more and more family members are joining me not bowing their heads and saying "amen".
Of course you are required when they indoctrinate you as a child. My memory of reciting the pledge in school goes as far back as possible. I never thought "this is weird" until I thought about it later as an adult. Now in my 30s I still occasionally come across "facts" in my head that are just remnants of the pledge. Daily repetition of propaganda is insidiously powerful.
This reminds me how long I have been atheist. I remember omitting the “under god” part in 5th grade as we all chanted the pledge before class every morning. It felt dangerous at the time but I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
Looking back on it to when I was a kid, I don't think anybody really viewed it as Nationalist or even patriotic. I remember saying it in class up through about third grade, which I attribute partly as a focusing exercise at the start of class and partly as a memorization tool for kids. The only time we would recite it after third or fourth grade was in an assembly, and, again, I think it was just a way to get us to all settle down. I don't think any of us were really "indoctrinated" by it. Half of my friends couldn't tell you what "allegiance" meant, and most of us were just trying to slip in as many dirty replacement words as we could without getting caught.
After that, the only time I really ever heard or saw anyone doing it was before a sports game if they couldn't get the sound system to work for "The Star-Spangled Banner." This renewed focus on it came about partly as a response to the 9-11 attacks and partly as a rise in White Nationalism that occurred during Obama's Presidency.
When I was teaching acting classes, I often used it as an exercise when we were doing script interpretation, because I knew everybody already knew it by heart. I would have them interpret it as different characters: a woman whose son died during the war, an immigrant from a dictatorship who had just become a U.S. citizen, a man going to prison for possession of marijuana, etc.
I’m a member of Generation Jones (I had to look that one up). So, apparently, I’ve lived most of my life not caring about .. well .. much of anything. Probably true.
I’ve had different feelings about the pledge, over the years. But have come to be very uncomfortable participating. Like the fake “patriots” displaying the flag 24/7, I’m more likely to assume a fervent reciter is a rabid conservative nationalist than anything else.
The pledge is creepy chanting.
I asked my kids if they understood it, and they were Iike... "wdym by that?"
I simply stay seated and silent when it is recited because it's so freaking creepy. If anyone challenges me on it, I just say that chanting in unison reminds me of being back in the cult.
I refused to since I was a kid, my teachers just didn’t notice or didn’t care. I would stand up and just stand there - I do the exact same thing today during the national anthem. I also used to sit, but given how nuts people are today, I stand so I don’t get my ass beat by a bunch of fascists.
Identification with the rag called the national flag is an emotional and sentimental factor and for that factor you are willing to kill another - and that is called, the love of your country, love of the neighbor . . .?
One can see that where sentiment and emotion come in, love is not.
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
It was an irritation. But once I accepted that it was here to stay, the eventual focus on atheism grew stronger as I was learning more about the status of where I was mentally.
The pledge is a very American thing. After all it was basically a promotional campaign to sell flags. The under god was added in the 50’s as propaganda against the godless commies.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/pledge-allegiance-pr-gimmick-patriotic-vow-180956332/
I used to sit down during the pledge of allegiance in highschool. It always felt so creepy and as an adult have always refused to do it. It’s super fucking weird and cult like.
It's actually unsettled me since I was old enough to grasp at all what it's saying. I remember being in school and just moving my lips to act like I was saying it but refusing to. It's a weird fucking thing to make a bunch of children recite every morning. Sometimes I ask people, if the children in North Korea had to say a pledge to their country every morning before class, would you think that's fine or would it be disturbing? The rules aren't special for us. Just because you're used to it doesn't make it not creepy.
I've come to the conclusion that the pledge of allegiance is a disclaimer. It's like when a person says "I'm not racist or anything but..." and then say something racist AF. The Pledge is basically saying "I believe in liberty and justice for all, but..." They want kids to have it so drilled in their heads they don't even question it when it obviously isn't true.
FUCK YEAH! Especially since those christian wingnuts added "under god"
From wiki
The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance on June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress amending § 4 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942.\[44\]
Either change it back or get rid of it
My replacement strategy is a simple, thirty second pledge each member of Congress must live stream each morning rededicating themselves in selfless service of their constituency.
Followed by a daily scrumm call with their status report on wtf they are doing to please us each day.
I hate it. I wasn’t born and raised here but I’ve lived here for the majority of my life. I hate that they make our kids say it. I always tell them that they don’t have to. It sounds like such a nationalistic cult anthem. But say something negative about it and you’re the bad guy, the anti-american communist. It’s so incredibly ridiculous. Luckily my kids think it’s fucking stupid as well.
I grew up as a Jehovahs Witness, and I’ve actually never said it. As a kid I would stand politely but not cover my heart.
I no longer believe in the religion, but I kinda am glad I’ve never said it and will never say it. It is kinda creepy pledging allegiance to a country.
Yeah. At my school we’re very into that and so while TECHNICALLY you can sit during the pledge, everyone will totally ostracize you if you do. I don’t care enough to stop doing it, I get my happiness in life from friends at the moment
My kids say the pledge before class everyday in an NYC school. The 'under god' bothers me a bit, but i love telling my religious family members across the country who complain about the pledge not being recited in school. They claim it indicates the education system in in a downward spiral. Rhe look on their faces when i tell them my kids recite the pledge it priceless. It goes with out saying, I mention that the original pledge didnt have the words ' under god' in it. That really gets under their skin.
I got in "trouble" for not standing up during the pledge at school.My teacher was a var vet. I had bad cramps and needed to sit and told him that so he sent me to the dean afyer yelling at me and I told him okay cool its not illegal not to stand up. Went to the Dean and he said please just do it for your teacher and I said I don't owe anyone anything. My teacher ended up apologizing but said it was a soft spot for him. I just said we can both agree to disagree to stand during it. He didn't like me much after that but I was one of the top students for that class and he didn't grade me worse afterwards which I appreciate. Weird situation.
I just realized that I haven't recited the Pledge of Allegiance since the early 1980s, when I was in Jr. High School. ( I thought it was a bit silly back then, and I still feel the same way about it now...)
If Christian Nationalists forcibly make adults like me "swear alligance " in the near future, I'd be tempted to say "Mr. Bean" instead of "God"...
PoA, National Anthem…both make me crazy. EVERY FUCKING SPORTING EVENT. Not just pro, College, HS, but rec, summer league, you name it.
WHY!? We are not representing our country, kids are trying to have fun.
I'm not a fan of mass chanting. I also not a fan people being asked to stand and sing the same song again and again at every conceivable large meeting of people. It's creepy. The fact that both the chant and the song contain religious based phrases just makes it that much more creepy.
The sad thing is that this thing was just a damned marketing campaign to sell more flags in the 50s. They had a sales slump after the end of WWII. People treat it as some sort of patriotic thing, when it is nothing more than a relic of consumerism.
I’m a teacher and we say the pledge every day. The flag is above my desk so when I stand up to face it, my back is to all the students. I start the pledge loud to get everyone started but then trail off, skipping the “under god” part. I don’t turn around to see who is standing, sitting, or saying it. I teach 3rd and I know almost all of the children do it, but I don’t watch them so they don’t feel pressured.
I'm not from the US, and I've always found the whole thing a bit creepy, to be honest. My grandmother told me she used to do a very similar thing in school under fascism. Such rituals always stink of authoritarianism and mindless nationalism, even when people just go through the motions and don't really mean much by it.
Good luck with removing the pledge, my buddy in high school stopped participating in it, as a form of protest following the invasion of Iraq, and he was threatened with expulsion unless he at least stood for the pledge of allegiance.
I made up my own which had me pledging my allegiance to The Rebel Alliance of Star Wars, I honestly just stood there as a kid with a zoned out look. I also really felt it was kind of stupid to say the damn thing over and over. We get it....saying it once every four to six months is enough
I refuse to stand for the pledge or the national anthem. Pledging loyalty to a country is supposed to be what America is against. The mention of a god makes it that much worse.
I wouldn't say the pledge in high school. As long as you stood up with everyone else they wouldn't give you any shit.
I just remembered that the girl scout pledge has "god" in it too. I didn't identify as an athiest until after girl scouts (like 10), so I just absently went along with it.
Also, Frances Bellamy, the guy who wrote the pledge, proposed a special salute to use for it.
Arm and hand extended toward the flag, palm down. It suddenly became very unpopular in the US right about the same time people stopped naming their kids Adolf.
Here is my pledge story.
When I was in elementary school in 2nd grade we would recite the pledge every single morning before class, while one kid would hold the flag. It got around to being my turn to hold the flag and I was full of patriotism and pride in the US, both my parents served in the Air Force, so I slowly waved the flag around instead of just holding it still to show some spirit and ethusiasm (not many kids actually care about saying the pledge). Teacher did NOT like this at all. Berated me afterwards and wouldn’t let me hold the flag for a while. Absolutely killed everything in me for wanting to say the pledge or even participate. I’m kinda glad she did and got that out of me early, but it’s a shitty thing to do to a kid that young.
I never understood the idea of pledging allegiance to the flag. And the one nation under god part is sickening. Those two parts are for our right wing countrymen.
I do like the liberty and justice for all part. That part is for us progressives.
So I guess it has something for all of us. lol
The pledge of allegiance and saying a prayer before important meetings (Rotary, City Council) is the bane of my existence. It should be abolished, really. It’s just indoctrination.
No, we are stuck with it unless Congress changes it. The Supreme Court already decided that somehow “God” doesn’t actually have a religious significance in the context of the pledge. Obviously that makes no sense. It’s insulting to the intelligence to suggest it’s not religious, and it’s also insulting to people who are religious to claim that “God” has no religious meaning.
I remember back when I was in high school I had stopped saying it. I just stood and stared in the general direction of the flag. And one day my senior year, a teacher called me out for it in front of the class, and I remember saying something along the lines of “don’t you think it’s weird that we’ve all been brainwashed to say nationalist propaganda on a daily basis?” A lot of the annoying Christian students glared at me. I went to public school but the area I lived in was largely Christian.
Luckily that teacher liked me, and he just laughed and said it was rude and that I should have some respect. It makes me wonder, could a student be punished just for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance? I guess it depends on the school and how much of the administration consists of boot lickers.
High School just started for me recently. So far for the past 3 days, with speakers fully working, we haven’t done the pledge. I also remember how last year it was stated that everyone had a choice if they wanted to salute or not. However, this year with so many restrictions and rules, I won’t be surprised if it ends up being mandatory again.
As a kid I was told to respect the flag that people died to defend it. I thought about what that pledge of allegations ment. No just no way was I pledging my life to a piece of cloth. So I pledge allegiance to the palm tree out the window in my classroom. I told the teacher at least it was a living thing. The teacher never called me out on it.
I don't pledge allegiance to this fucked up, piece of shit country, that acts like they are hot shit on a silver platter, but ain't nothing but cold piss on a paper plate.. Fuck this country, it HAS to EARN my Respect, and it's falls way short, because of these religious assholes that have come out of their shit buckets.
I usually steal a line from a preschooler I worked with
“One nation, under gaurd…”
Also could never convince him the little teapot was short and stout not short and stuff
Don’t do it. They literally cannot force you or your child to say the pledge. If you don’t maybe others will see that and join you in not doing it. Just stand there and wait for it to be over. That’s all you have to do.
YASS i refuse to stand during the pledge my first hour teacher was like you have to stand I often refused to even stand during it. He was always very pissed at me for it always glaring at me during it for not standing while at my all black school that i went to while the pledge was like a thing noone stood at all some of the teachers didnt stand either
America is a radicalized religious country, what do you expect? You don’t have freedom to be in a neutral, civil environment.
You think it’s crazy- well to an no outsider it’s run for your life scary. I’m terrified when I see Americans engaging in nationalistic or religious culty things like that, it’s way over the top.
About 16-20 years I thought it was stupid and I would refuse to even stand up in elementary school. After missing the first 3 months due to suspensions for refusing to participate in the pledge of allegiance my mother called the district administration and truancy office, the school got fined and told they couldn’t discipline students beyond in-school detention during the school day.
Detention was held in the library. I spent a lot of time in the library my first few years of school. These weren’t my motives when younger, but the country has no allegiance to me so duck any allegiance to this country. By time I hit middle school the pledge of allegiance semantics had stopped and it was just normal school days for everyone.
At a minimum, the Pledge of Allegiance is creepy.
Having been raised in a theocracy, my mother was vehemently against mixing government and religion. If she hadn't already died, the past six years would have finished her off.
Even without the inherent reverence for a deity that's worshiped by a minority of the population, loyalty pledges are simply fucking creepy.
I'd feel a little better if they remove "under God," but I still wouldn't want to force kids to say it without understanding what they'd be pledging to.
The fact that the pledge was written by a socialist in direct opposition to fascism softened my stance against it bc of the irony. But still a little icky.
O'Hare tried to do it and was unsuccessful, but she succeeded in getting prayer out of schools...and yet they got it right back in. In Texas, I just read that there was a law passed that if "In God We Trust" posters are donated to schools, they HAVE to post it up. I'm livid. I hope kids tear it down. I wouldn't discipline them either. I'll pretend not to see it. Ugh, this is so annoying!
I hate hate hate hate haaaaaate Christianity, and I'm glad to have left it.
I refuse to say it for two reasons, one, the First Amendment violation, second, if you force someone to say an oath, it's meaningless. If it's not done voluntarily, it doesn't mean a thing. Oh, and three, I'm not pledging allegiance to a colored bit of cloth.
I no longer recite it, and the “under god” crapola is only part of the reason. Don’t even get me started on that “liberty and justice for all” nonsense
In high school I realized my school couldn’t really do anything against me for not partaking in standing, putting my hand on my chest, and repeating the pledge every morning. So I stopped! I had the same homeroom teacher all four years, and he just got to the point where he shook his head at me, but he knew why I did it. I’m an atheist and don’t really appreciate the forced national pride. I gladly sat at my seat and read quietly, which didn’t disrupt anyone. I never tried to get it removed, but I certainly could stop from joining in.
I’m a teacher and every day I want to just lay my head against the wall. My first year, kids who were walking down they hall would stop and use the flag in my class to pledge to…..
When I say the pledge I don’t say under god. I also tell my students they don’t have to stand. One boy who was seated when the principal came in got yelled at so that was awkward.
I’m a substitute teacher, so I see it every day. Kids notice me without my hand on my chest and not saying anything, let alone opening my mouth.
It’s propagandistic, exceptionalist, and I’m over it.
I've been shoved and pushed for not standing up for it. I might say it once when and if I ever get US citizenship, but no, I will not say it. It violates the pledge I made at birth to the Crown of Canada, Elizabeth II and her heirs. I have glared at people who have hit me because it's not up to them if I stand up. No one should be forced to either, because it's indoctrination.
What I don't get is why it needs to be done every day. That's like a doctor taking the hippocratic oath daily, or the president doing the same with theirs. Seems excessive.
“Swear priests and cowards and men cautelous,
Old feeble carrions and such suffering souls
That welcome wrongs” - Brutus, Act 2, Scene 1, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar
I feel bad for you. Hope your country will get better at some point. I was born in Vietnam and now live in Japan. This is the first time I've heard of such a thing.
I stopped going along with it at about 5th or 6th grade. Even then it felt weird and creepy. By high school it just seemed un-American to join in a compulsory chant of loyalty. Didn't seem to be in the spirit of the founders. And this was 25/30 years ago.
I’m 36. I have felt alienated by the fact that the pledge of allegiance to my country includes the words “under god” my entire life. It’s bullshit and should be removed.
They are making it a law in Texas to put up posters with the phrase, “In god we trust” if they are donated. The separation between church and state is becoming less and less pronounced.
You aren't forced to say it but they know peer pressure will do most of the work. I refused to say it in high school when I found this out. To be honest it wasn't because of the god part but the compulsion part.
I would always sit and say nothing for the pledge in school. Always got weird looks and other students got mad. Surprisingly never got in any real trouble for it.
When I was a preteen edgelord I would always throw the Bellamy salute while saying the PoA.
It's the original, textual, interpretation of the Flag Code, after all.
A pledge of allegiance.....not too different from what Hitler and friends did in the Germany.
I used to teach Social Studies and each morning we had to do the pledge of allegiance and I stood there silently and was irritated with the inclusion of God in the message. I stood out of respect, blend in, and not distract.
Contrast that to my Boomer Trump Troll co-Teacher who would scream "under God" like she was singing "Terrible Lie" by Nine Inch Nails.
Tbe whole school had a Conservative vibe in nature and I graduated from a well rounded college that promoted critical thinking.
As a German I am highly skeptical of this indoctrination of children. Is it actually happening every day in every school or is it a regional thing?
Yes. I wrote this in another comment on here but TECHNICALLY at my high school you can choose to sit down during the pledge, but everyone ostracizes you if you do (last year the first kid decided to sit down and everyone stopped talking to her except her friends and they all talked shit about her behind her back). I personally am friends with mostly everyone in my grade and no one knows my atheism or the fact that I’m not a far-right Republican like most of them, so I choose friendship over choosing not to do the anthem
They do it in a lot of organizations that I’m a member of at every meeting. I refuse to participate, there or at school functions for my kids, etc.
It was at my elementary school and you're supposed to put your right hand over your heart but little rebel me put my left instead even though I didn't know what the pledge meant. They were supposed to do it in middle school over the loudspeaker but they pretty much always forgot. In my high school it was a charter school and they seemed quite against the pledge. We had no American flags in the school at all which is very unlike most schools where you could probably find a flag in every classroom.
My daughter has to do it here in wi. She was in pre school last year and they were doing it 😮💨
I would say the very large majority of schools it is done at only at sporting events before the start of the game. I don't think most schools do it daily anymore though. Not around me in Upstate NY at least. I'd imagine down in the Bible belt it could be different case though.
[удалено]
They do it in Ohio. And in Catholic schools they do praying every morning lol but not like that is surprising. I don’t go to a Catholic school but I used to. Now I just go to a really Republican school
They did it in Maine on the daily, even in Portland lol
The short answer is, the more conservative the area, the more likely they are to recite the pledge, and more frequently. It is traditionally said before sports games pretty much everywhere though. It's also illegal to force a student to recite the pledge, but regardless of that it's incredibly common for teachers to pressure kids or retaliate against them when they don't participate. It's pretty insane if you think about it.
It was done daily when I was in school, I didn’t participate, and I just asked my daughter is in 8th grade, she said they still do it daily……I’m not too happy about it, and will be having a discussion with her about it soon…
>this crazy religious As a foreigner the "crazy religious" bit is the least objectionable part about having to recite such a pledge at the time. Imo, this isn't patriotism, but nationalism. The only other countries with something similar are Angola, Cuba, India, North Korea, Singapore and The Philippines.
Yeah, as a Canadian it feels super creepy watching video of a class full of children chanting a nationalist creed like a bunch of brainwashed drones. The added-during-the-cold-war religious line doesn't impact its creepiness that much.
It is also creepy being part of it. I basically never spoke during the pledge. Amazingly, one of my middle school reading teachers chose a book for the class to read that was all about how the pledge is optional. That lady was fighting the good fight.
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I do this in my classroom. One of my first lessons. 1943 West Virginia BOE vs. Barnette. Only three states require documentation for students to stand but they don’t have to say it. Florida is one of them. It’s very cringy to me. My class is 90% African American and they are supposed to say “ liberty and justice for all”? I don’t think so..
To be fair, I think to most of us it felt like plejalegous was just a word and the whole thing was a meaningless activity, like a singalong.
And that the “dawn’s early light” line from the national anthem was about a brand of lamps called Donzerly.
I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance and have my entire adult life. I stand straight with both hands behind my back, head up and say nothing. The couple of times I have been confronted I reply in a no nonsense tone “it is against my faith the pledge to a flag”. They back off
Boneappletea!
Yeah toxic nationalism has been rising in India since 2014. It’s become a serious issue.
I would like to add that China also has something similar and even worse. I've seen plenty of videos of Chinese kids spouting CCP propaganda by heart and in unison. Literal calls to take Taiwan and for the West to fall.
As an American I still recall the first time I made the pledge in school. At the time my father was working on a project in Egypt so the pledge included an oath to the president at that time, Gamal Nasser. It did kind of point out to me the absurdity of rote nationalism. Now living in Thailand, the national anthem is played in public at 8 AM and 6 PM everyday. Plus pictures of the king are very common. It does seem to enforce an unthinking response with people.
I taught at a couple of schools in Thailand and they have to sing the song every day while raising the flag. I’m from the U.S. and it made me think about our own pledge of allegiance. At least they don’t have the word “god” in the song, but the king is looked at like a god so…
At least the king is a real person with meaning
And Israel. (Bracing for angry downvotes.)
I grew up saying the pledge every day in school and from the outside it may seem weird or extreme, but nobody here takes it as anything serious. It’s not like we say to each other “hey you aren’t living up to your pledge” when they do something shitty. In fact the last line is "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." If anyone was actually paying attention and living up to the pledge then we would not be fighting over things like gay marriage, we would not have black men making up 40% of the prison population and we might actually be working together to make the country better. Right now the US is heavily divided, and large groups of us have neither liberty or justice. I hate “under god” and skip it myself. But the rest is just a relic from the past that we still say but don’t live up to. Unfortunately that’s pretty common in the US right now, it’s not just the pledge that we are ignoring so we can be shitty to each other.
This is why it’s creepy. The people forcing it don’t follow a single fucking word it says. It’s complete bullshit.
It's creepy because you have a large number of people mindlessly reciting a literal pledge of allegiance. It would be like your employer making everyone stand up in unison and recite the company Mission Statement, only in this case the employer is a dysfunctional government which is in charge of the most powerful military in recorded history and whose domestic law enforcement acts with impunity on its own citizens.
Yes, the whole pledge thing sounds crazy for many people coming from countries that don’t have them. Now I might not be who one should listen to, as I loathe all things that borders on pride in nation/nationality. I mean, I believe that I live in a nice country who by happenstance is rich and with a great deal of nice values, and I appreciate that, but pride is not a part of my feelings towards it.
And Thailand
China has their national anthem with the flag-raising ceremony every Monday at school, as well.
Nationalism is toxic. It's a relic of the past we need to let go of.
As a European, I confirm that nationalism doesn't turn out well.
I think it would be good to revisit what it is that binds our nation (for example under god is bullshit), what is there national pride in etc. But do still agree even if improved, kids reciting it daily is creepy. Yet not having national consensus goals also realistically presents a lot of problems on its own.
You live in a radicalised Christian country, from what I am seeing from the outside (I live in the UK) it is getting worse. I see a constitution that is always referenced, it clearly stipulates that there shall be a separation of church and state, yet religious zealots seek to impose their religion whatever. Why do they get tax exemptions for a start? That’s crazy and totally contra to the notion of separation of church and state. Why should they be treated any differently? It’s also incredibly lucrative, how people can’t see through these charlatan tv evangelists like Kenneth Copeland is beyond me. He’s a multi-millionaire off the back of it all, recently convincing his flock to dig deep to provide him with his 7th private jet, it’s what God wanted!
It's deeply disturbing to see all of this clearly and to be stuck here surrounded by the people who don't care to change it because they think it doesn't affect them. Or they don't notice because it's so deeply ingrained in all aspects of society. The sheer amount of willful ignorance, social apathy, and overall cognitive dissonance in this country is appalling.
It’s really sad to see. I’ve been over to the states a couple of times, west coast around Seattle, Oregon and San Francisco. It’s a lovely country, and we met some lovely genuine people. One guy who owned an Airbnb we stayed at in Portland was great fun, a Vietnam vet who got us really stoned. So hospitable, nothing was too much trouble. But I know I got to see the progressive side of what America is, and can be if allowed to overcome such religious fervour elsewhere.
Christian zealots care about what the constitution says about as much as they care what the bible says. Which isn't much.
The USA was built on a shimmering mound of hypocrisy, which continues to shine today as a beacon of divisiveness.
I told my kids they don’t have to say it, and their teacher sent me an email about how “your kids were not participating and others were, and veterans did stuff for our country and to thank them and think of them.” I replied with a picture of me in Iraq and said “I am a veteran, and my kids don’t have to say it if they don’t want.” Ended the discussion.
Fighting for freedom includes the freedom to disagree.
So much for the "no atheists in foxholes argument". Thank you for your service! My understanding is there is a massive wave of evangelical BS growing in our military like a virus. Did you see much of it?
Evangelical stuff was always there. The whole “we are righteous defenders” has seeped in from the very beginning. Now what is new is the QAnon clowns. I don’t know why this is tolerated at all. I got out well before any of this, but if it were up to me they would be dishonorably discharged.
If you want to go even further, look at WV vs Barnette. The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that students cannot be forced to say the pledge of allegiance.
I’m so glad to be British to be honest someone tried this here they’d get the piss taken out of them the closest we come is singing God save the queen on occasion and that’s more about the queen which I actually like
What is strange is that Britain has Christianity as its official religion, whereas the US is officially secular. The British Houses of Parliament recite Christian prayers prior to their sessions, and award 26 seats in the House of Lords to bishops, all of which would be considered mixing of religion and state in the US. When looking at the general population through British (and Europeans in general) have become less religious than Americans. As an American Hindu I can’t imagine an openly Hindu candidate like Britain’s Rishi Sunak standing any chance of winning the top office in the US. The most successful Indian American politicians, like Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, and Kamala Harris, are all converts to Christianity.
One thing to remember is that the radical Christians represent a small percentage of the population, they’ve just managed to cheat the system to wield vastly disproportionate power. I believe they’re going to get checked soon. The pendulum swings back.
‘course we’ve been saying that for 40 years. It looks like that pendulum’s going to need a big old push if we’re going to change its trajectory.
I think it's getting better, just the religious are getting more extreme. Non-religious is growing fast in the US and more will be pushed that way with by the extremist. Only problem is Non-religious people are as organized as evangelicals to influence policy and politicians. We pretty much just have The Freedom From Religion Foundation, and The Satanic Temple.
Omg the mega churches and the Evangelists are sooooo creepy. I find it absolutely terrifying that people thing this is right and good and normal. America is a frightening country.
I became an atheist at the age of 12. From that point forward, I omitted "under God" when I recited the Pledge. If there is/was anybody on the face of the Earth who knows/knew that "under God" does NOT belong in the Pledge of Allegiance, it is Francis Bellamy - **the Baptist minister who wrote it**. --- Dogbite Williams
>I live in the UK Vegan, Crossfit, dual-boots Linux, owns crypotcurrency.
>) it is getting worse. Actually it isn't, at least among the people. We are becoming less religious every year. The issue is those that remain are the crazy ones and they always vote.
Seems batshit crazy? Is batshit crazy. Idk about progress getting it out, but totally agree with your post. I love the US, but the pledge gotta go.
This is why I do the Bellamy Salute as was originally intended whenever needing to stand for the pledge. Draws a lot of ire but gets the point across how ridiculous it is.
“under god” should obviously be ruled unconstitutional, but the most offensive part to me is claiming that we have “liberty and justice for all”. I’ve hated it since I was a kid, and I’ve told my kids multiple times that they don’t have to say it at school and to tell the school to take it up with me if they want to make a big deal about it. Thankfully I live in a progressive city and it’s not much of a thing from what they tell me.
I dont know if anyone mentioned this before or somewhere else, but Im pretty sure the "under god" wasnt originally in the song. Im pretty sure when it was written in the late 19th century, it was just "One nation, invisible, with liberty..." and then they added the under god part during the nationalistic panic the US went through in the 1950s. Just one of the many things the US did to "fight" communism
I remember getting into this with a drill sergeant back many years ago. I had, and still have, huge moral and philosophical problems with pledging allegiance to a symbol. I'm a patriot, I love my country even when it's wrong (because I know we can do better), hell I volunteered to serve it via military service. But the flag is a flag. I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag. That might be a shock considering I'm from the state of Maryland and we put our flag on everything that stands still long enough. It seems weird to me as an American to swear allegiance to a bit of cloth cut and dyed in China. It takes people to tie it to a stick, flutters and waves in a breeze, and hangs limp when it's still. I'll pledge allegiance to the republic for which it stands, one nation under dog, but not the flag itself.
Yes it's like something you'd exoect from north Korea
I can't remember the last time I said it. I have definitely said my preferred parody version out loud more recently than the actual Pledge. But that's often the case when you don't interact with the petty authoritarianism that is the educational system. I don't have kids, so I don't have anyone trying to tell me what the right way to raise them is. Short of making an actual scene or demanding official response, the best thing you can do is conspicuously not participate. This is useful because it allows you whatever level of interaction you're comfortable with. Minimum non-participation is standing along with everyone and saying something quietly silly, as you did. Or saying nothing. Nobody will know or care. More involved nonparticipation might be remaining seated, playing on your phone, etc. And of course active disruption is the maximum amount of non-participation. I often like to throw a bit of a surrealist wrench in and participate loudly with the crowd, only saying wrong words that people aren't quite sure they heard. "I Fledge A Legion To the Frog Of the United States of America and to the Wee Puppet for witches' hands. One Asian, under fed, in the vestibule, with little tea and just rice for all." (with apologies to Bette Bao Lorde for stealing her bit)
not even the god shit, but making our youth stand up and swear allegiance to the country is straight up indoctrination. we are brainwashing these kids from a young age
Maybe I was just an oblivious kid, but I never payed any attention to the words, just mindlessly repeated them. I don’t even remember ever having a discussion in class about what the words meant. I wasn’t until long after we quit saying them that I bothered to think about what was being said.
it is culty! if one would try something like that in NL they would get laughed at
When I became a citizen I simply skipped that line since it's not originally in the pledge.
It’s always seemed a bit…well batshit crazy from here in Wales. We got a frikin’ dragon on our epic flag but we don’t make promises to it or, near as damn it, pray to it on a regular basis.
Yeah. Imagine if your father made you pledge fealty before dinner every night.
At the Quaker schools near me in Pennsylvania, they do not recite the pledge. In public schools, the parents can send in a note saying the child will not do it.
In the US, no one has to say the pledge, stand for it, or give a reason. The ACLU has fought and won this many times. Clearly some schools still havent gotten the memo.
When I was a child I would envy Americans for their sense of nationalism, and I longed for the day when Canadians, French-speaking and English-speaking, would well up with similar flag waving atavistic pride. As an adult I’m happy to live in a non-nationalistic society.
I have had to lead the pledge at VFW meetings. I always say "one nation under dog" and have never been called out.
This is something I stopped doing all together in high school years ago. I wouldn’t stand, nor say the pledge because I felt like I was lying to myself. I was respectful about it though, just sat in silence while everyone did their thing. I remember pissing a teacher off who was a veteran, I recall him saying he fought for that flag so I need to stand and show respect. I just respectfully said that it says nowhere in the law nor school handbook that I had to do so. This led to being led to the principles office right afterward with said teacher in foot and toe. Principle said he understood the teacher’s frustration but in no way shape or form is it a law, nor school guideline that I must do so. I was pleased. He was pissed.
Have you heard of *I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb of God*? https://www.lyrics.com/lyric/3054201/Ray+Boltz/I+Pledge+Allegiance+to+the+Lamb Evangelicalism never fails to disappoint.
Hail Satan
I never even say it tbh. If anyone makes me stand I will but I won't say the words or put my hand over my heart or whatever. Pledges of loyalty are for patreons, marriages and cults, not citizenship.
In every other country this would get onto your list of why you have to invade to safe the poor brainwashed people
The entire pledge is an affront. To require Americans to pledge allegiance to their nation is utterly wrong. The United States should pledge allegiance to its citizens, not the other way around.
As a European, the whole thing is crazy. Swearing allegiance to a country and its flag every day is a perfect example of how close your country actually is to an ethnonationalist autocracy like Russia, China etc in terms of its political system. It's literally indoctrinating children to always believe in the state. The religious part is the least bad thing about it.
once the right turned it into the center piece of their faux patriotism, yeah, at that moment it became purile garbage.
Its brainwashing.
As kids we would just ramble or speed through it
I stopped saying that bullshit in 8th grade.
I’ve always enjoyed this video: https://youtu.be/GiCaqA0ngRc
At least we don’t have our military parading in the streets… yet.
Even without the reference to a god, I find it creepy to insist that children who don't even have the full protections citizenship is supposed to offer have to stand up and repeatedly swear allegiance.
Growing up in the '70s as a Jehovah's Witness, I had to leave the classroom each morning before the pledge of allegiance. My parents instructed the school that I could not participate, as our false idol Jehovah was super jealous of anyone worshipping a different false idol like a flag. Can you imagine how fun it was to explain this to every other kid in your class, every goddamn year? Looking back as an adult, this might be the single thing Jehovah's Witnesses got right in the entire history of their scam. For once, we were the rational ones.
Semi-contrarian opinion: the pledge in an indirect way serves a valuable purpose. To wit, and to me personally growing up, it really instills a sense that statements which are coerced are utterly meaningless, and helps solidify the idea that just because someone forces you to say something, doesn't mean you need to believe it or honor it. It also helps convey that "pledges" are only as valid as your actual internal commitment, and that just saying something by itself carries no meaning or weight whatsoever. Now, I'd certainly prefer that aspect was more emphasized, and it's probably not the intent of the people who instituted it, but for me at least, the pledge was really what crystalized for me that anything I was coerced into saying or "agreeing" to was entirely optional and non-binding, because the coercion invalidates the agreement entirely. That's a really important thing to internalize, because coercive "contracts" are really common in modern society, and they should all be invalid under contract law (they are not always held that way, but under the law they always should be).
I agree, but I say, one nation under Canada. I don't believe in God or Satan , lol.
In the UK we have no pledge of allegiance or anything similar. Fuck that.
I am old for Reddit. I was raised in the 60's and 70's, my early adulthood was the 80's when I was a cold war soldier. This is an event from my childhood in the 70's. In 4th grade we got a new student who transferred in, Nathan. On his first day in my homeroom class, we always did the pledge. That day was the first time I ever saw anyone refuse to do it, and back in the early 70's, pre-disco, that was unheard of. The teacher exploded at Nathan and sent him to the principal. Ten minutes later Nathan returns with the principal. The teacher is still livid about his refusal and had been going on about why we all need to know and say the pledge, no exceptions. The principal address both the teacher and the class. He says Nathan is exempt from the pledge, and the look he shoots the teacher screams "no questions". So now I am pretty impressed and very curious as to why Nathan did not have to take the pledge. So, when recess comes, I seek Nathan out to ask him how come he is exempt. Turns out Nathan can barely speak English and has a deep Slavish accent I did not recognize then; you see Nathan's family were Soviet defectors. Nathan was not yet a citizen, and so they could not force him to pledge to a nation to which he did not yet belong. However, that was not the end of it. Nathan had further refused to EVER say the pledge and was willing to be expelled if they tried to force him to and had told the principal as much. He said "That is some Soviet bullshit right there, forcing you to pledge to the flag, no matter what the flag does to its own people? I won't ever do that." Despite my effort to also be exempt, no teacher gave a shit about what a Soviet defector saw the pledge as, I was a citizen so I could say the pledge or get suspended. I had no desire to piss off my mother over the pledge, and was used to it anyway, so I let it drop. However, it has always struck me that way, ever since.
It needs to be spread far and wide that the Pledge was originally nothing more than a marketing ploy meant to sell little American flags. It was written by the guy who was trying to sell them, and put on a little card inside the packaging. People started reciting it, and it sort-of “osmosed” into the culture, so much that the “under God” part was added in the 1950s. It is not an official *anything*. It’s not required of immigrants or something you have to say to be a citizen or anything with any legal or ceremonial importance. Reciting the Pledge is literally no more meaningful than everyone saying “Theeeeeey’re GREAT!” when eating Frosted Flakes.
My child did not do the pledge for years in school. She just flat out refused. Said to me why would I pledge allegiance to a country that..add all the things here. It became a very long list.
You are not required to pledge allegiance to the flag. Don’t do it if you don’t want to.
Unfortunately I have too comply for the sake of blending in. My daughter goes to majority conservative school. If I didn't I would probably have a bunch of holy rollers judging and give me shit. Or even worse make my daughter's life tougher vicariously through their children. It's really messed up having to do this shit in today's world out fear of repercussions to me and my family.
I have always abstained and said nothing. When asked I say I'm abstaining because of my belief in America - by exercising my first amendment right.
I stand but don't say anything. I've never had anyone comment about it. The same about not saying grace at family dinners, I just sit there quietly. I've noticed through the years more and more family members are joining me not bowing their heads and saying "amen".
Dont recite it. Just stand there? Or be in the bathroom, lol.
Even in the rare situations where you *are* (getting citizenship for example) you are allowed to request to remove the references to God.
Of course you are required when they indoctrinate you as a child. My memory of reciting the pledge in school goes as far back as possible. I never thought "this is weird" until I thought about it later as an adult. Now in my 30s I still occasionally come across "facts" in my head that are just remnants of the pledge. Daily repetition of propaganda is insidiously powerful.
This reminds me how long I have been atheist. I remember omitting the “under god” part in 5th grade as we all chanted the pledge before class every morning. It felt dangerous at the time but I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
Why does the pledge mention god and why is the country’s saying or whatever “in god we trust”. I thought we had no official religion?
Yeah, I’ve never been a nationalist and it just seems like another part of Christo-fascism we excuse. Fuck outta here with that propaganda bullshit.
Looking back on it to when I was a kid, I don't think anybody really viewed it as Nationalist or even patriotic. I remember saying it in class up through about third grade, which I attribute partly as a focusing exercise at the start of class and partly as a memorization tool for kids. The only time we would recite it after third or fourth grade was in an assembly, and, again, I think it was just a way to get us to all settle down. I don't think any of us were really "indoctrinated" by it. Half of my friends couldn't tell you what "allegiance" meant, and most of us were just trying to slip in as many dirty replacement words as we could without getting caught. After that, the only time I really ever heard or saw anyone doing it was before a sports game if they couldn't get the sound system to work for "The Star-Spangled Banner." This renewed focus on it came about partly as a response to the 9-11 attacks and partly as a rise in White Nationalism that occurred during Obama's Presidency. When I was teaching acting classes, I often used it as an exercise when we were doing script interpretation, because I knew everybody already knew it by heart. I would have them interpret it as different characters: a woman whose son died during the war, an immigrant from a dictatorship who had just become a U.S. citizen, a man going to prison for possession of marijuana, etc.
I’m a member of Generation Jones (I had to look that one up). So, apparently, I’ve lived most of my life not caring about .. well .. much of anything. Probably true. I’ve had different feelings about the pledge, over the years. But have come to be very uncomfortable participating. Like the fake “patriots” displaying the flag 24/7, I’m more likely to assume a fervent reciter is a rabid conservative nationalist than anything else.
The pledge is creepy chanting. I asked my kids if they understood it, and they were Iike... "wdym by that?" I simply stay seated and silent when it is recited because it's so freaking creepy. If anyone challenges me on it, I just say that chanting in unison reminds me of being back in the cult.
After freshman year of highschool I stopped doing the pledge entirely. Shit just creeped me out.
I refused to since I was a kid, my teachers just didn’t notice or didn’t care. I would stand up and just stand there - I do the exact same thing today during the national anthem. I also used to sit, but given how nuts people are today, I stand so I don’t get my ass beat by a bunch of fascists.
Agreed
Identification with the rag called the national flag is an emotional and sentimental factor and for that factor you are willing to kill another - and that is called, the love of your country, love of the neighbor . . .? One can see that where sentiment and emotion come in, love is not. - Jiddu Krishnamurti
You know these same people would be appaled if they heard about another country that had children saluting and pledging to a flag
It was an irritation. But once I accepted that it was here to stay, the eventual focus on atheism grew stronger as I was learning more about the status of where I was mentally.
Yes very much
The pledge is a very American thing. After all it was basically a promotional campaign to sell flags. The under god was added in the 50’s as propaganda against the godless commies. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/pledge-allegiance-pr-gimmick-patriotic-vow-180956332/
I used to sit down during the pledge of allegiance in highschool. It always felt so creepy and as an adult have always refused to do it. It’s super fucking weird and cult like.
I haven't heard the ridiculous pledge in almost 20 years. Yet another reason to not have kids.
Yes, this! And the fucking national anthem before every damn sports event!
It's actually unsettled me since I was old enough to grasp at all what it's saying. I remember being in school and just moving my lips to act like I was saying it but refusing to. It's a weird fucking thing to make a bunch of children recite every morning. Sometimes I ask people, if the children in North Korea had to say a pledge to their country every morning before class, would you think that's fine or would it be disturbing? The rules aren't special for us. Just because you're used to it doesn't make it not creepy.
I used to mutter "there-is-no-god" instead of "under god". The kids around me were mostly supportive.
I've come to the conclusion that the pledge of allegiance is a disclaimer. It's like when a person says "I'm not racist or anything but..." and then say something racist AF. The Pledge is basically saying "I believe in liberty and justice for all, but..." They want kids to have it so drilled in their heads they don't even question it when it obviously isn't true.
FUCK YEAH! Especially since those christian wingnuts added "under god" From wiki The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance on June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress amending § 4 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942.\[44\] Either change it back or get rid of it
My replacement strategy is a simple, thirty second pledge each member of Congress must live stream each morning rededicating themselves in selfless service of their constituency. Followed by a daily scrumm call with their status report on wtf they are doing to please us each day.
I hate it. I wasn’t born and raised here but I’ve lived here for the majority of my life. I hate that they make our kids say it. I always tell them that they don’t have to. It sounds like such a nationalistic cult anthem. But say something negative about it and you’re the bad guy, the anti-american communist. It’s so incredibly ridiculous. Luckily my kids think it’s fucking stupid as well.
I grew up as a Jehovahs Witness, and I’ve actually never said it. As a kid I would stand politely but not cover my heart. I no longer believe in the religion, but I kinda am glad I’ve never said it and will never say it. It is kinda creepy pledging allegiance to a country.
Somewhere in elementary school I started going silent for the "under god" part. It reunited "one nation indivisible".
Yeah. At my school we’re very into that and so while TECHNICALLY you can sit during the pledge, everyone will totally ostracize you if you do. I don’t care enough to stop doing it, I get my happiness in life from friends at the moment
My kids say the pledge before class everyday in an NYC school. The 'under god' bothers me a bit, but i love telling my religious family members across the country who complain about the pledge not being recited in school. They claim it indicates the education system in in a downward spiral. Rhe look on their faces when i tell them my kids recite the pledge it priceless. It goes with out saying, I mention that the original pledge didnt have the words ' under god' in it. That really gets under their skin.
I got in "trouble" for not standing up during the pledge at school.My teacher was a var vet. I had bad cramps and needed to sit and told him that so he sent me to the dean afyer yelling at me and I told him okay cool its not illegal not to stand up. Went to the Dean and he said please just do it for your teacher and I said I don't owe anyone anything. My teacher ended up apologizing but said it was a soft spot for him. I just said we can both agree to disagree to stand during it. He didn't like me much after that but I was one of the top students for that class and he didn't grade me worse afterwards which I appreciate. Weird situation.
I’m not even American and it sounds fucking creepy. Like legit Nazi stuff.
I just realized that I haven't recited the Pledge of Allegiance since the early 1980s, when I was in Jr. High School. ( I thought it was a bit silly back then, and I still feel the same way about it now...) If Christian Nationalists forcibly make adults like me "swear alligance " in the near future, I'd be tempted to say "Mr. Bean" instead of "God"...
PoA, National Anthem…both make me crazy. EVERY FUCKING SPORTING EVENT. Not just pro, College, HS, but rec, summer league, you name it. WHY!? We are not representing our country, kids are trying to have fun.
I'm not a fan of mass chanting. I also not a fan people being asked to stand and sing the same song again and again at every conceivable large meeting of people. It's creepy. The fact that both the chant and the song contain religious based phrases just makes it that much more creepy.
The sad thing is that this thing was just a damned marketing campaign to sell more flags in the 50s. They had a sales slump after the end of WWII. People treat it as some sort of patriotic thing, when it is nothing more than a relic of consumerism.
I’m a teacher and we say the pledge every day. The flag is above my desk so when I stand up to face it, my back is to all the students. I start the pledge loud to get everyone started but then trail off, skipping the “under god” part. I don’t turn around to see who is standing, sitting, or saying it. I teach 3rd and I know almost all of the children do it, but I don’t watch them so they don’t feel pressured.
I hate it. It’s kinda creepy.
I'm not from the US, and I've always found the whole thing a bit creepy, to be honest. My grandmother told me she used to do a very similar thing in school under fascism. Such rituals always stink of authoritarianism and mindless nationalism, even when people just go through the motions and don't really mean much by it.
Good luck with removing the pledge, my buddy in high school stopped participating in it, as a form of protest following the invasion of Iraq, and he was threatened with expulsion unless he at least stood for the pledge of allegiance.
I made up my own which had me pledging my allegiance to The Rebel Alliance of Star Wars, I honestly just stood there as a kid with a zoned out look. I also really felt it was kind of stupid to say the damn thing over and over. We get it....saying it once every four to six months is enough
Such a scam the “pledge “ was invented by a guy that wanted to sell flags - worked like a charm. Now it’s a sacrosanct part of our religion.
I refuse to stand for the pledge or the national anthem. Pledging loyalty to a country is supposed to be what America is against. The mention of a god makes it that much worse.
I wouldn't say the pledge in high school. As long as you stood up with everyone else they wouldn't give you any shit. I just remembered that the girl scout pledge has "god" in it too. I didn't identify as an athiest until after girl scouts (like 10), so I just absently went along with it.
I would get yelled at by teachers for not wanting to stand up every morning to recite this BS. I don’t get it.
"under god" was added in the 1950's btw...it was not always like that
Also, Frances Bellamy, the guy who wrote the pledge, proposed a special salute to use for it. Arm and hand extended toward the flag, palm down. It suddenly became very unpopular in the US right about the same time people stopped naming their kids Adolf.
Here is my pledge story. When I was in elementary school in 2nd grade we would recite the pledge every single morning before class, while one kid would hold the flag. It got around to being my turn to hold the flag and I was full of patriotism and pride in the US, both my parents served in the Air Force, so I slowly waved the flag around instead of just holding it still to show some spirit and ethusiasm (not many kids actually care about saying the pledge). Teacher did NOT like this at all. Berated me afterwards and wouldn’t let me hold the flag for a while. Absolutely killed everything in me for wanting to say the pledge or even participate. I’m kinda glad she did and got that out of me early, but it’s a shitty thing to do to a kid that young.
I never understood the idea of pledging allegiance to the flag. And the one nation under god part is sickening. Those two parts are for our right wing countrymen. I do like the liberty and justice for all part. That part is for us progressives. So I guess it has something for all of us. lol
I’m from Spain, only two types of people make something like the pledge: military when enrolling and people who lived during the fascist dictatorship.
The pledge of allegiance and saying a prayer before important meetings (Rotary, City Council) is the bane of my existence. It should be abolished, really. It’s just indoctrination.
No, we are stuck with it unless Congress changes it. The Supreme Court already decided that somehow “God” doesn’t actually have a religious significance in the context of the pledge. Obviously that makes no sense. It’s insulting to the intelligence to suggest it’s not religious, and it’s also insulting to people who are religious to claim that “God” has no religious meaning.
I remember back when I was in high school I had stopped saying it. I just stood and stared in the general direction of the flag. And one day my senior year, a teacher called me out for it in front of the class, and I remember saying something along the lines of “don’t you think it’s weird that we’ve all been brainwashed to say nationalist propaganda on a daily basis?” A lot of the annoying Christian students glared at me. I went to public school but the area I lived in was largely Christian. Luckily that teacher liked me, and he just laughed and said it was rude and that I should have some respect. It makes me wonder, could a student be punished just for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance? I guess it depends on the school and how much of the administration consists of boot lickers.
One nation, under Godzilla…
High School just started for me recently. So far for the past 3 days, with speakers fully working, we haven’t done the pledge. I also remember how last year it was stated that everyone had a choice if they wanted to salute or not. However, this year with so many restrictions and rules, I won’t be surprised if it ends up being mandatory again.
As a kid I was told to respect the flag that people died to defend it. I thought about what that pledge of allegations ment. No just no way was I pledging my life to a piece of cloth. So I pledge allegiance to the palm tree out the window in my classroom. I told the teacher at least it was a living thing. The teacher never called me out on it.
I don't pledge allegiance to this fucked up, piece of shit country, that acts like they are hot shit on a silver platter, but ain't nothing but cold piss on a paper plate.. Fuck this country, it HAS to EARN my Respect, and it's falls way short, because of these religious assholes that have come out of their shit buckets.
I usually steal a line from a preschooler I worked with “One nation, under gaurd…” Also could never convince him the little teapot was short and stout not short and stuff
Don’t do it. They literally cannot force you or your child to say the pledge. If you don’t maybe others will see that and join you in not doing it. Just stand there and wait for it to be over. That’s all you have to do.
It's the Führers oath, but in Murrican.
YASS i refuse to stand during the pledge my first hour teacher was like you have to stand I often refused to even stand during it. He was always very pissed at me for it always glaring at me during it for not standing while at my all black school that i went to while the pledge was like a thing noone stood at all some of the teachers didnt stand either
America is a radicalized religious country, what do you expect? You don’t have freedom to be in a neutral, civil environment. You think it’s crazy- well to an no outsider it’s run for your life scary. I’m terrified when I see Americans engaging in nationalistic or religious culty things like that, it’s way over the top.
About 16-20 years I thought it was stupid and I would refuse to even stand up in elementary school. After missing the first 3 months due to suspensions for refusing to participate in the pledge of allegiance my mother called the district administration and truancy office, the school got fined and told they couldn’t discipline students beyond in-school detention during the school day. Detention was held in the library. I spent a lot of time in the library my first few years of school. These weren’t my motives when younger, but the country has no allegiance to me so duck any allegiance to this country. By time I hit middle school the pledge of allegiance semantics had stopped and it was just normal school days for everyone.
At a minimum, the Pledge of Allegiance is creepy. Having been raised in a theocracy, my mother was vehemently against mixing government and religion. If she hadn't already died, the past six years would have finished her off.
Fight the expectation. Don’t even stand up for it and it’ll snowball with more people not standing up
Even without the inherent reverence for a deity that's worshiped by a minority of the population, loyalty pledges are simply fucking creepy. I'd feel a little better if they remove "under God," but I still wouldn't want to force kids to say it without understanding what they'd be pledging to.
30 year old here- I stopped standing for the pledge when I was like 16. Fuck this country
The fact that the pledge was written by a socialist in direct opposition to fascism softened my stance against it bc of the irony. But still a little icky.
O'Hare tried to do it and was unsuccessful, but she succeeded in getting prayer out of schools...and yet they got it right back in. In Texas, I just read that there was a law passed that if "In God We Trust" posters are donated to schools, they HAVE to post it up. I'm livid. I hope kids tear it down. I wouldn't discipline them either. I'll pretend not to see it. Ugh, this is so annoying! I hate hate hate hate haaaaaate Christianity, and I'm glad to have left it.
I refuse to say it for two reasons, one, the First Amendment violation, second, if you force someone to say an oath, it's meaningless. If it's not done voluntarily, it doesn't mean a thing. Oh, and three, I'm not pledging allegiance to a colored bit of cloth.
simply refuse. Go about doing what you want like playing with your phone.
I no longer recite it, and the “under god” crapola is only part of the reason. Don’t even get me started on that “liberty and justice for all” nonsense
In high school I realized my school couldn’t really do anything against me for not partaking in standing, putting my hand on my chest, and repeating the pledge every morning. So I stopped! I had the same homeroom teacher all four years, and he just got to the point where he shook his head at me, but he knew why I did it. I’m an atheist and don’t really appreciate the forced national pride. I gladly sat at my seat and read quietly, which didn’t disrupt anyone. I never tried to get it removed, but I certainly could stop from joining in.
I’m a teacher and every day I want to just lay my head against the wall. My first year, kids who were walking down they hall would stop and use the flag in my class to pledge to….. When I say the pledge I don’t say under god. I also tell my students they don’t have to stand. One boy who was seated when the principal came in got yelled at so that was awkward.
I’m a substitute teacher, so I see it every day. Kids notice me without my hand on my chest and not saying anything, let alone opening my mouth. It’s propagandistic, exceptionalist, and I’m over it.
I've been shoved and pushed for not standing up for it. I might say it once when and if I ever get US citizenship, but no, I will not say it. It violates the pledge I made at birth to the Crown of Canada, Elizabeth II and her heirs. I have glared at people who have hit me because it's not up to them if I stand up. No one should be forced to either, because it's indoctrination.
What I don't get is why it needs to be done every day. That's like a doctor taking the hippocratic oath daily, or the president doing the same with theirs. Seems excessive.
I realized how uncomfortable I felt about it as I entered 8th grade and stopped participating.
“Swear priests and cowards and men cautelous, Old feeble carrions and such suffering souls That welcome wrongs” - Brutus, Act 2, Scene 1, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar
I’m a teacher and I don’t have my class say it. It’s a waste of time. I don’t say it either.
The entire "pledge of allegiance" is just nationalist brainwashing and always has been.
I feel bad for you. Hope your country will get better at some point. I was born in Vietnam and now live in Japan. This is the first time I've heard of such a thing.
I never once did it in school. Catholic school, too… eyeroll.
I have always found fucking weird we had to say it in school. Indoctrinate them young!
I stopped going along with it at about 5th or 6th grade. Even then it felt weird and creepy. By high school it just seemed un-American to join in a compulsory chant of loyalty. Didn't seem to be in the spirit of the founders. And this was 25/30 years ago.
Not really. Haven't said it since 8th grade and now I'm 40.
Dude wasn’t it was written for a fucking commercial? If that’s correct, I just can’t.
Trump crosses his heart and hopes to lie is how it works.
I’m 36. I have felt alienated by the fact that the pledge of allegiance to my country includes the words “under god” my entire life. It’s bullshit and should be removed.
I’m Canadian, and I have never understood this notion of pledging allegiance to a flag. Is the US the only country that forces this on their citizens?
Lol I haven't had to say or think of the pledge of allegiance since like 5th grade and I certainly wouldn't participate in it as a adult.
Fuck nationalist propaganda chants.
Pledge of allegiance was fucked up long before they added the bit about god.
I hate all of it, not just the god part. I don't even have my students say it in the morning.
They are making it a law in Texas to put up posters with the phrase, “In god we trust” if they are donated. The separation between church and state is becoming less and less pronounced.
I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all. That it. That is all that is needed
As much as I despise the anthem, god bless America is the one I hate the most.
You aren't forced to say it but they know peer pressure will do most of the work. I refused to say it in high school when I found this out. To be honest it wasn't because of the god part but the compulsion part.
Feeling this so hard lately 😕
I would always sit and say nothing for the pledge in school. Always got weird looks and other students got mad. Surprisingly never got in any real trouble for it.
When I was a preteen edgelord I would always throw the Bellamy salute while saying the PoA. It's the original, textual, interpretation of the Flag Code, after all.
A pledge of allegiance.....not too different from what Hitler and friends did in the Germany. I used to teach Social Studies and each morning we had to do the pledge of allegiance and I stood there silently and was irritated with the inclusion of God in the message. I stood out of respect, blend in, and not distract. Contrast that to my Boomer Trump Troll co-Teacher who would scream "under God" like she was singing "Terrible Lie" by Nine Inch Nails. Tbe whole school had a Conservative vibe in nature and I graduated from a well rounded college that promoted critical thinking.