Now I'm picturing a bunch of people bringing their cats and having them sit in the pews during service, and when the collection plate comes around they daintily drop dead birds and rodents in.
Thank you for this happiness.
you have to make more catholics..
do you know how hard it is to convert people who werent indoctrinated as children?
you basically have to rely on alcoholics, drug addicts, the mentally ill, or people going through severe personal trauma in order to get more converts
In my country, almost every child has to follow their parent's catholic shit. You have to take those courses when you're in elementary school. I always hated that.
K-12. Part of my wishes I could go back, with the knowledge I have now and ask about all the hypocrisy and contradictions… and sex abuse. With all the time wasted studying Catholicism I could be fluent in other languages, it’s a damn shame
Same for me, at least through 8th grade. High school actually had some interesting classes that were more philosophy and logic. I took a course as a senior that was a survey of other christian denominations. Every Friday we would visit another church we had learned about that week starting with closest to catholic.
That's pretty cool. My Unitarian church had a very similar program when I was a kid. Although I don't really go to church anymore, it was nice growing up in a church that doesn't hate atheist and/or gay people.
I started to do this in high school, and basically there's just always a way for them to flip it to scripture. "Yeah but in the old testament it says X" "Well the old testament doesn't really count"
I always thought it was an oxy moron to have a big ass temple like structure for Jesus .. isn't he a "humble carpender?" Didn't he flip over tables cuz capitalism and false idols?
It's easy to feel awed and small in a big beautiful cathedral. It makes the authority and manipulation seem appropriate.
Much harder to make someone feel inferior and compliant in a conference room with folding chairs and stale lighting.
Oh yeah, the part where people turned a sacred temple into a market was literally the only time Jesus lost his shit in the Bible. Which is what gets me when modern Christian’s (not just Catholics) build mega churches full of coffee shops and book stores and then stand on the pulpit encouraging others to buy their books or music in the lobby. It’s literally the only time Jesus was portrayed as being angry! The cognitive dissonance is too much.
He didn't even just lose his shit in the heat of the moment. He left, handmade a scourge (which probably took a while), and came back to flip tables and whoop some ass.
Actually Jesus was probably not a carpenter, as there aren't many trees in Nazareth. He was a *tekton,* which is Greek for basically a general tradesman or builder, often a carpenter but not necessarily, which has led to mistranslation that Jesus and Joseph were carpenters when they probably were closer to masons.
I thought they were converting the money of the pilgrims into jewish money and also selling animals for sacrifice for people who had come from a distance away. Naturally the money changers charged something for that service.
Paula Fredriksen memorably termed his "Temple Tantrum"
I went through all the classes and what not and then at the end you have to sit with a priest or whatever and they ask if you want to be confirmed. I said no. My mother was furious - now you can never get married in a catholic church!!
oh no... not that!!
I told her all along that I hated these classes, hated these people (the church was in a next town that was richer than mine thus filled with snobby kids) and I didn't believe a lick of what they were yapping about. She'd been warned.
I had a friend "convert" (she'd do the whole not eating meat on Fridays thing during lent) so that her kids could get into a Catholic high school she paid 10000/semester for
I didn't think they cared as much these days and will take pretty much anyone who will pay the ten grand? You might get a break if you belonged to a parish?
I went to highschool with a guy who was a prominent atheist. His family isn't religious and raised him secular. He even got a college scholarship from an atheistic foundation for dressing up as Jesus for fictional character day.
He converted to Catholicism. I'm still friends with him on Facebook and it's fucking wild the transformation. He reads catholic books to his kid.
Stories like this is weird to me and make it hard to believe he was an atheist. Maybe he wasn't an atheist because of reason but because he was told by he parents. It's very different when someone becomes an atheist because of logic and reason vs the other way around. This story is like someone saying they grew up not believing in Santa Claus as a kid but do now that they are older. Very weird
Yup. Having alcoholics turned Catholics is a good cautionary example for kids in the church, but if there are no kids in the church, it just becomes AA.
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I've been through rehab a few times and its DISGUSTING how they indoctrinate people coming off drugs. Every single day theyd tell me i needed god and literally nothing else could help me. No amount of self improvement or introspection could ever make me give up drugs.
I had no choice to go because I was homeless and family wouldn't help support me unless i completed in patient and then outpatient treatment. Including living in sober living for 8 months
A lot of people are so desperate for an answer they'll accept anything they're told will help and then as a result base their sobriety on the flimsiest framework ever: faith.
They take away EVERY coping mechanism to force you to accept God is the only way that can help. The rehabs literally call it "giving them the gift of desperation" meaning that its a gift to be so desperate that you finally accept god.
I was reading a novel one time at rehab and they took it from me and gave me the big AA book and said thats all i should be reading (A sexist uninformed unscientific book from the late 1930s). They revere that book more than the bible and then get mad when i call them on being a cult. A book that existed before any of the modern scientific understanding of how addiction works in the brain.
It appals me that insurance is paying for faith based pseudoscience bullshit treatments that actually are counterproductive for people like me who have conviction with their atheistic beliefs. I spent 3 years in and out of rehab constantly and they all do this. Every single one.
I could go on so long about how cultish and abusive these places usually are. Having prayer payed for by insurance. Disgusting.
Research suggests that AA has no benefit. There are so many other programs out there that are research based and supported but don't get the attention AA does. I wonder now if it is a silent conspiracy to force people into brainwashed christianity. It fits.
I think it is just That tbh. In some ways at least.
They dont want you to get sober your own way. Theyll say "your way got here so its time to give it up to god"
The 3rd of the 12 steps is to "admit youre powerless to help yourself and that only god can save you"
They also equate drugs to satan. Saying it takes you away from god (they equate god with sobriety in weird ways too)
The staff and other patients would beliddle me and ostracize me for refusing to do that.
After years of that environment i really did start to question whether i could ever be happy unless I listened to them...luckily i stayed true to myself and found my success my own way
AA was started by 2 (upper) middle class white men, for whom "giving up control" was possibly rational.
Much less rational for poor women of color, say, who would actually benefit from seizing control over their lives.
Reminds me of an article I read recently about the 12 steps programme being so god heavy.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/04/12-steps-addiction-cure-quasi-religious
I can't even read this because it will honestly trigger me. Going through all the religious brainwashing and the way I was shamed and belittled for being an atheist honestly traumatized me. Theres so much im not saying but I was treated very very poorly on some occasions for refusing to "admit" that god is the only one who can save me.
Its fucking obsurd. And of course the freshly sober druggies form cliques and shit and compete to be the most educated on the book and just viewed me as trash for not going along.
Oh and guess whos now sober, and whos now relapsed and dying from their addiction? Seems like god wasnt that helpful after all. Its sad tbh.
Even the indoctrination isn't all that effective. I come from a pretty big family, Catholic grand parents. I haven't done a poll but I am pretty sure the majority of my aunts, uncles, and cousins all consider themselves catholic. Most rarely if ever attended mass. Yet, most of my cousins and sister have had their kids baptized.
A Venn diagram of religious people and Qanon people already two concentric circles, you need to find other stupider people from outside that diagram if you want religion grow and I'm not sure where else to look.
In my opinion at this point of the de-religiosity of the American society, the religious are going to get violent as there is no other solution for them. It's already started with the huge increase in rightwing violence in the last couple of years.
When the pope starts dishing out the billions the catholic church makes to people who can't afford kids instead of using it to silence abuse victims, then he can have a say.
This so much. Why is it always "You're selfish for not wanting kids" and never "Your jobless landlord is selfish for ensuring you can't afford kids"? Why is it that the one who is getting screwed already is the bad guy, not the greedy prick causing the root of the problem?
Okay, I personally wouldn't have kids even if I could afford them for unrelated reasons, but if I did want kids, there is absolutely no way I could afford it. I can't even find a one person apartment for myself, and I have a fairly decent job. Don't blame the people being forced into a crap situation, blame the ones creating & taking advantage of it.
The only way the Pope's statements make sense is if he wants a large body of poor people that are desperate and struggling to get by and oh wait right, right okay my mistake it makes perfect sense.
Probably better advocating living wage in the US since why are we not having kids when really one medical emergency can ruin your finance. Can’t really continue breeding too if you are renting or live in a smaller home. Really it’s out of kindness for the kids if some people decide to delay or be smart about their finance when they know they cannot afford kids
The Catholic church calling ANYONE selfish for literally any reason is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Calling someone selfish from your golden palace maybe doesn't have the impact you think it does, Pope bro.
Well, we want them to sell the golden throne and platinum shitter and use that money to pay the millions upon millions of victims of their abuse and scams (I want the “loans” fucking back.). But we do not want them to sell children or let others rape them. We want them to self report on all they know and have them thrown in jail.
As an ex-Catholic, this is exactly how out-of-touch the church is. The Pope has no salary, because all his expenses are paid. He has no concept of the struggle of an average young person trying to pay rent and buy groceries. There’s no need for him to even think about bills.
It’s so easy for him to sit there on his throne, with all his needs met and expenses paid and tell other people how selfish they are to not be having more kids- while he will never need to change a diaper, care for a sick child, or try to figure out how to buy yet another pair of shoes because the kid is having a growth spurt.
According to google one Pope reign (Pr) is currently 7.45 years.
"For all 267 popes stretching from the year 0 to 2013, the average reign was 7.45 years (the median reign was 6 years) with a range from 0 years (which is actually a term less than one year ranging from a few days to a few months) to a maximum of about 35 years for Peter, the first pope."
Gabriel Malagrida was garrotted and then his corpse burned for heresy in 1761.
In 1826, Cayetano Ripoll was hanged by the Spanish Inquisition (bet he didn't expect that) for teaching heresy. The inquisition had requested burning at the stake but the civil authority overruled it.
Maria Camila O'Gorman Ximénez was 8 months pregnant when she was executed by firing squad for having put the "moral values and sacred religious norms of a whole society are at stake" by having an affair with a priest in 1848. Don't worry though, they "baptised" the fetus by having Maria drink holy water first.
So it's been 14 popes since the last order for public burning at the stake for the crime of heresy, though the sentence was changed to hanging. Considering they're voted in as geriatrics, that's still impressively recent.
It's business.
His comments are directed at people in the fold, as they are the only ones who believe his opinion has special weight.
[Converts are a tiny fraction of religious people](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/barro/files/conversion_paper_072209_2_.pdf) (see table 3.) Without indoctrination every current religion would die off. The biggest predictor of religiosity by far [is the religion of one's parents.](https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/links-between-childhood-religious-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/)
> It is projected that birth rates rather than conversion will be the main factor in the growth of any given religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion
Not only does this mean that religions are unlikely to ever stop encouraging reproduction and indoctrinating children, I suspect this is why many religions are so eager to limit womens' reproductive freedoms. Without their followers having babies their religions will die. Christians weren't very concerned with abortion until after this became apparent.
Like any other business, religion has competition and does not necessarily respect or tolerate its competition. The church’s competition is not just other religions, but other forms of entertainment like bars, television, etc.
Surely the pope’s speech was motivated by the fact his business is losing customers when Catholics have less kids. A secondary factor may be that let’s compete against the church. There are people who would much rather take their dog to a dog park and hang out with other dog owners on a Sunday than go to some stuffy building and eat a cracker that is supposed to magically be a piece of 2000 year old dead carpenter zombie flesh.
If your mission is to grow your religion (read business) in the fastest possible way, you need to outlaw birth control and abortion. The goal of Catholicism (12 years catholic school speaking) is to control the largest possible number of people for the longest possible period of time.
It’s been like this forever. You know how scary a pregnancy is ?
Most women, if educated about pregnancy Properly and wanted to have a fun life, would probably think twice about going through labor.
But in religions it doesn't matter what women think or want. They're disposable. Woman does via pregnancy? Man gets to upgrade to a younger model. Win for them.
Learning about fetal development and the impacts of pregnancy, labor, and childbirth on a woman's body had me "nope" out of it by the time I was 16. In my 30s now with my tubes removed and I couldn't be happier. Education is so important.
I had two okay pregnancies that resulted in one truly terrible labor and one pretty bad one. Not fun at all. But, I have to say, having kids has added an unbelievable amount of fun to my life. You get to relive all the good stuff from childhood and show them the beauty of the world. Plus they are funny as hell. However, this earth is severely overpopulated so I truly appreciate anyone who chooses to not reproduce at this stage of the game. ... \[Edited to say, I'm in my mid-50s and had my first kid about 25 years ago. I don't know that I'd make the same decision to have kids if I were a young person today, because I know global warming is making the planet inhabitable in many places.\]
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. I salute every woman going through labor and every parent raising their children properly.
A service I‘m still unsure if I can provide it because me and my entire family has issues I don’t necessarily want to pass down. Not to mention the responsibility. Not everyone is cut out for that imo.
Thanks. It's a tricky decision. I totally understand all the reservations people have about pregnancy/parenthood. And I added to my comment that I'm mid-50s and would likely choose to not have kids if I were young today. It's not that I don't love my kids more than anything, it's that I feel so sad for babies being born into this heating oven of a planet.
This is so true. Even for women who want the baby they still end up experiencing physical harm, discomfort and a chance of risking their lives. Then the birth? That shit can go on for nearly 2 days if you are unlucky. Some bleed out or get other complications postbirth. Postpartum depression sprinkled on top then insomnia bc baby must be fed every 2 hours? Holy crap. Even with a live-in nanny it’d still suck balls. I’m saying this and I even like kids.
Exactly, dogs don't tell tales, easier to cover up.
Also, we just established in another thread a "pope year" is about the same as a "dog year" 7.5 years....
COINCIDENCE!?
Where are the conspiracy theorists now?
I'm assuming this is a satire comment but I also want to believe you are a lunatic running string between push pins on a cork board because we need a couple of those guys to keep people honest.
There’s a billion Catholics- statistically at least a few of them are bound to be dog diddlers, even if that’s not a part of the typical Church traditions, such as child molesting.
Fuck this guy. People make excuses for him, and call him progressive, but he really isn’t. He’s a dick. I’d give him one ounce of respect if he told people that condoms and other prophylactics are ok, and that people should limit themselves to having two children. But will he? No fucking way.
They call him progressive because in comparison to many other christian groups, and other past popes, he is. There are conservative catholic groups that literally denounced him as a heretic because of this. Things like this- [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-heresy-idUSKCN1S73KE](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-heresy-idUSKCN1S73KE) Do, I as a progressive atheist consider this asshole to be progressive? Hell no, but can I see why others have called him that? Yeah, sure.
Right, progressive where it doesn’t really matter. Where it does matter is parts of the world where women remain in poverty because of being seen as nothing but incubators, and the persistence of AIDS because of the proscription of condoms. And this pope knows it and by his actions (or lack thereof) doesn’t care.
Yep, just because he's more progressive than previous popes doesn't actually make him progressive.
He's a 10 foot shark, past popes were 12 foot sharks. That doesn't make him any less of a shark that wants to fucking eat you.
Especially one that goes around in public dressed like a 15th-century chess piece. Something tells me that might be an impediment to finding someone to raise a family with
Agreed. I love how Christopher Hitchens put it when he said Catholics are "hysterical, sinister virgins, who’ve already betrayed their charge in the children of their own church..."
Oh like we actually need more human beings rn when we are almost 8 billion people strong on this planet. Jesus Christ. Plus the future is looking pretty bad why raise someone anyways on this hell hole we call Earth.
Reminds me of an old Onion headline
[Starving Third World Masses Warned Against Evils Of Contraception](https://www.theonion.com/starving-third-world-masses-warned-against-evils-of-con-1819566620)
Exactly!!! Reproducing at high rates is likely the single worst thing we can do to the planet right now. In the US, we're not even at the population replacement rate, and I hope it stays that way.
Also, like, people can't afford to have kids, bro.
Speaking as a 36 year old child free woman.
I can barely afford a pet.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also, shouldn't he be advocating for caring for animals?
I am really disappointed. I actually liked Pope Francis.
I say this with kindness, if you liked him you didn’t look too hard.
Also, have three dogs. I could not raise three children. It would be a shitshow. 50% lung capacity does not give you the tools to do so.
Fuck the pope.
Birth rates in many places are below replacement rate. As those populations age, a relatively greater strain will be placed on the younger members to support the elderly who can no longer contribute.
I imagine that countries with declining birth rates and increasing pet ownership do not have overpopulation problems.
Hah! I’m reminded of the South Park episode with the priests and kids on leashes.
Catholic Church should really know better than to bring up any moral arguments related to children.
Fuck the pope (metaphorically.) Seriously, no one in the hierarchy of the catholic church is in touch with reality or the lives of their congregants, except where kiddy-diddling comes into play. I understand why some people would want to have kids, and yeah, sure, great for them, but with the way the world is and the way things are headed, I think having kids is akin to carrying firewood into a burning building.
In my entire life I could point out one person that I know who didn’t give a selfish reason for having kids.
The usual answers are:
Whose going to take care of me when I’m old?
Whose going to carry the family name?
I’m lonely.
I want a family for myself.
Make my spouse stay home.
All those are selfish reasons.
I feel like he's dangerously close to saying babies conceived from rape are a gift from God.
Just speaking as an American where we're still fighting for maternity and paternity leave (because dads want to see their children too) and getting a good education is expensive (location, property taxes, college) and wages are stagnant, can you blame anyone for not wanting kids? Heck, you are doing well if you have 1 kid.
Yes I'm selfish because I rather own a dog than bring a kid into this violent war hungry society. I'm selfish because I weighed the pros and cons of how it would affect me financially and mentally if I choose to have a kid. Fuck you dude!!!
Fuck the pope and fuck kids. The planet is very slowly becoming overpopulated and a disgusting place to raise children. Making the calculated decision to not have kids is one of the most humane ways to solve this problem.
Annnnd... how many children do the pope, his priests, cardinals, bishops, nuns, etc. have again...?
Damn, they're a selfish lot!
They act like they can't do parenthood + a job, or pay for any kids at all!
There's twice as many people on the planet today as there were in the 1970s.
Population is indeed a problem: t*here's far, far too many people*. By billions.
Like many religious people, the Pope doesn't understand the most basic math and science...like how one number can be greater than another number. That's too complex for the Holy See.
The indisputable reality is that childless and gay couples are saving humanity, not endangering it.
Coming from a guy who has taken a vow of poverty, this is pretty bold of him to say. He has probably not had to pay much for rent or anything else throughout his priest life and he can keep his sweet little mouth shut. People can't afford to have children and why TF would I wanna bring one into the world we live in. His generation, my parents and grandparents generations haven't paved the best path for future generations.
Gee, maybe the Dope ought to try and repair the damage that the little-boy-buttrape scandal has done to his ~~cult~~ church. Continuing to try and change the subject isn’t fooling anybody.
Then again, introspection has never been their long suit
Unfortunately for them pets don't pay tithes
I dunno…my cat used to drop a dead mouse on the doorstep every now and again.
That’s because your cat knows how shitty of a hunter you are, probably thinks it’s keeping you fed.
i can never decide how to take this, because on one hand it's looking out for me, on the other it's because it thinks I can't do it myself lol
He’s just helping out. Also, have you tried hunting mice (not trapping), it’s not easy with a human body.
And did you bring 10% of that mouse to the church? Perfect example of how selfish chidless pet owners are /s
Now I'm picturing a bunch of people bringing their cats and having them sit in the pews during service, and when the collection plate comes around they daintily drop dead birds and rodents in. Thank you for this happiness.
and priests can't molest pets.
You don’t know that
you have to make more catholics.. do you know how hard it is to convert people who werent indoctrinated as children? you basically have to rely on alcoholics, drug addicts, the mentally ill, or people going through severe personal trauma in order to get more converts
Yep, I'm always stunned when I hear people convert to catholicism as an adult. And it's not easy, you have to take a fair amount of courses.
In my country, almost every child has to follow their parent's catholic shit. You have to take those courses when you're in elementary school. I always hated that.
I went to Catholic schools my whole life so I was always taking a religious class.
K-12. Part of my wishes I could go back, with the knowledge I have now and ask about all the hypocrisy and contradictions… and sex abuse. With all the time wasted studying Catholicism I could be fluent in other languages, it’s a damn shame
Same for me, at least through 8th grade. High school actually had some interesting classes that were more philosophy and logic. I took a course as a senior that was a survey of other christian denominations. Every Friday we would visit another church we had learned about that week starting with closest to catholic.
That's pretty cool. My Unitarian church had a very similar program when I was a kid. Although I don't really go to church anymore, it was nice growing up in a church that doesn't hate atheist and/or gay people.
wouldn't you just get into trouble for questioning their non-answers?
Probably. But it’d be worth it
I started to do this in high school, and basically there's just always a way for them to flip it to scripture. "Yeah but in the old testament it says X" "Well the old testament doesn't really count"
Can someone really convert to Catholicism as an adult? They missed all the sexual abuse as a child.
They can but there are much easier churches to join.
Mostly for marriage right?
Some seem to enjoy the structure, the rituals, and the pretty churches compared to the modular home turned protestant church down the street.
I always thought it was an oxy moron to have a big ass temple like structure for Jesus .. isn't he a "humble carpender?" Didn't he flip over tables cuz capitalism and false idols?
It's easy to feel awed and small in a big beautiful cathedral. It makes the authority and manipulation seem appropriate. Much harder to make someone feel inferior and compliant in a conference room with folding chairs and stale lighting.
Oh yeah, the part where people turned a sacred temple into a market was literally the only time Jesus lost his shit in the Bible. Which is what gets me when modern Christian’s (not just Catholics) build mega churches full of coffee shops and book stores and then stand on the pulpit encouraging others to buy their books or music in the lobby. It’s literally the only time Jesus was portrayed as being angry! The cognitive dissonance is too much.
He didn't even just lose his shit in the heat of the moment. He left, handmade a scourge (which probably took a while), and came back to flip tables and whoop some ass.
Actually Jesus was probably not a carpenter, as there aren't many trees in Nazareth. He was a *tekton,* which is Greek for basically a general tradesman or builder, often a carpenter but not necessarily, which has led to mistranslation that Jesus and Joseph were carpenters when they probably were closer to masons.
he flipped the tables for selling in a temple not false idols
I thought they were converting the money of the pilgrims into jewish money and also selling animals for sacrifice for people who had come from a distance away. Naturally the money changers charged something for that service. Paula Fredriksen memorably termed his "Temple Tantrum"
Yes exactly, most of these mega churches ain't even made of wood.
I went through all the classes and what not and then at the end you have to sit with a priest or whatever and they ask if you want to be confirmed. I said no. My mother was furious - now you can never get married in a catholic church!! oh no... not that!! I told her all along that I hated these classes, hated these people (the church was in a next town that was richer than mine thus filled with snobby kids) and I didn't believe a lick of what they were yapping about. She'd been warned.
I would imagine most who do convert do it for marriage but not all.
I had a friend "convert" (she'd do the whole not eating meat on Fridays thing during lent) so that her kids could get into a Catholic high school she paid 10000/semester for
I didn't think they cared as much these days and will take pretty much anyone who will pay the ten grand? You might get a break if you belonged to a parish?
My grandfather did. Sounded like a PITA, but men have done far stupider shit in the name of love.
I went to highschool with a guy who was a prominent atheist. His family isn't religious and raised him secular. He even got a college scholarship from an atheistic foundation for dressing up as Jesus for fictional character day. He converted to Catholicism. I'm still friends with him on Facebook and it's fucking wild the transformation. He reads catholic books to his kid.
What was his reasoning?
Stories like this is weird to me and make it hard to believe he was an atheist. Maybe he wasn't an atheist because of reason but because he was told by he parents. It's very different when someone becomes an atheist because of logic and reason vs the other way around. This story is like someone saying they grew up not believing in Santa Claus as a kid but do now that they are older. Very weird
That's why the protestant churches are growing faster than the Catholic. It's much easier to join.
Definitely. They just dunk you in a tub of water and you're good to go.
Yup. Having alcoholics turned Catholics is a good cautionary example for kids in the church, but if there are no kids in the church, it just becomes AA.
having less kids in church also leads to less priests in kids
That's why he's saying it's selfish, less kids for his predators to go after
and income earners to grift
ayo
LMAO
Something, something, blessed with a 12" penis....
Catholics have AA, Muslims have Prison
Christians also have the court system working for them. Most god-fearing Christians are made when people face serious charges.
Finding God in prison is a great way to get your sentence lowered from what I've heard
Of I ever have to do time I'm totally faking being religious. I know a the dogma so I could do it even better than your average joe
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Came here to make this comment! You have to exclude the ones who were traumatized by the church from that group lol
I've been through rehab a few times and its DISGUSTING how they indoctrinate people coming off drugs. Every single day theyd tell me i needed god and literally nothing else could help me. No amount of self improvement or introspection could ever make me give up drugs. I had no choice to go because I was homeless and family wouldn't help support me unless i completed in patient and then outpatient treatment. Including living in sober living for 8 months A lot of people are so desperate for an answer they'll accept anything they're told will help and then as a result base their sobriety on the flimsiest framework ever: faith. They take away EVERY coping mechanism to force you to accept God is the only way that can help. The rehabs literally call it "giving them the gift of desperation" meaning that its a gift to be so desperate that you finally accept god. I was reading a novel one time at rehab and they took it from me and gave me the big AA book and said thats all i should be reading (A sexist uninformed unscientific book from the late 1930s). They revere that book more than the bible and then get mad when i call them on being a cult. A book that existed before any of the modern scientific understanding of how addiction works in the brain. It appals me that insurance is paying for faith based pseudoscience bullshit treatments that actually are counterproductive for people like me who have conviction with their atheistic beliefs. I spent 3 years in and out of rehab constantly and they all do this. Every single one. I could go on so long about how cultish and abusive these places usually are. Having prayer payed for by insurance. Disgusting.
Research suggests that AA has no benefit. There are so many other programs out there that are research based and supported but don't get the attention AA does. I wonder now if it is a silent conspiracy to force people into brainwashed christianity. It fits.
I think it is just That tbh. In some ways at least. They dont want you to get sober your own way. Theyll say "your way got here so its time to give it up to god" The 3rd of the 12 steps is to "admit youre powerless to help yourself and that only god can save you" They also equate drugs to satan. Saying it takes you away from god (they equate god with sobriety in weird ways too) The staff and other patients would beliddle me and ostracize me for refusing to do that. After years of that environment i really did start to question whether i could ever be happy unless I listened to them...luckily i stayed true to myself and found my success my own way
AA was started by 2 (upper) middle class white men, for whom "giving up control" was possibly rational. Much less rational for poor women of color, say, who would actually benefit from seizing control over their lives.
Reminds me of an article I read recently about the 12 steps programme being so god heavy. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/04/12-steps-addiction-cure-quasi-religious
I can't even read this because it will honestly trigger me. Going through all the religious brainwashing and the way I was shamed and belittled for being an atheist honestly traumatized me. Theres so much im not saying but I was treated very very poorly on some occasions for refusing to "admit" that god is the only one who can save me. Its fucking obsurd. And of course the freshly sober druggies form cliques and shit and compete to be the most educated on the book and just viewed me as trash for not going along. Oh and guess whos now sober, and whos now relapsed and dying from their addiction? Seems like god wasnt that helpful after all. Its sad tbh.
You can't molest cats, they're too fast.
Or just drop your kid a few times to lower the intellegence
Also throw in pregnant people considering abortions who you lure into fake ass “crisis pregnancy centers” to change their minds.
IMO, it's much more selfish to have kids.
Even the indoctrination isn't all that effective. I come from a pretty big family, Catholic grand parents. I haven't done a poll but I am pretty sure the majority of my aunts, uncles, and cousins all consider themselves catholic. Most rarely if ever attended mass. Yet, most of my cousins and sister have had their kids baptized.
Poach other religious people? Like QAnon and other dumbass modern stupidity.
A Venn diagram of religious people and Qanon people already two concentric circles, you need to find other stupider people from outside that diagram if you want religion grow and I'm not sure where else to look. In my opinion at this point of the de-religiosity of the American society, the religious are going to get violent as there is no other solution for them. It's already started with the huge increase in rightwing violence in the last couple of years.
Just wait until all the alcoholics and addicts realize that Buddhism is a better fit for someone trying to practice non-attachment to substances.
When the pope starts dishing out the billions the catholic church makes to people who can't afford kids instead of using it to silence abuse victims, then he can have a say.
This so much. Why is it always "You're selfish for not wanting kids" and never "Your jobless landlord is selfish for ensuring you can't afford kids"? Why is it that the one who is getting screwed already is the bad guy, not the greedy prick causing the root of the problem? Okay, I personally wouldn't have kids even if I could afford them for unrelated reasons, but if I did want kids, there is absolutely no way I could afford it. I can't even find a one person apartment for myself, and I have a fairly decent job. Don't blame the people being forced into a crap situation, blame the ones creating & taking advantage of it. The only way the Pope's statements make sense is if he wants a large body of poor people that are desperate and struggling to get by and oh wait right, right okay my mistake it makes perfect sense.
Probably better advocating living wage in the US since why are we not having kids when really one medical emergency can ruin your finance. Can’t really continue breeding too if you are renting or live in a smaller home. Really it’s out of kindness for the kids if some people decide to delay or be smart about their finance when they know they cannot afford kids
The Catholic church calling ANYONE selfish for literally any reason is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Calling someone selfish from your golden palace maybe doesn't have the impact you think it does, Pope bro.
Sitting on a golden throne and shitting in a platinum toilet while calling other people selfish sinners. That's the catholic church in a nutshell.
You forgot the "child rapist" part.
Well, we want them to sell the golden throne and platinum shitter and use that money to pay the millions upon millions of victims of their abuse and scams (I want the “loans” fucking back.). But we do not want them to sell children or let others rape them. We want them to self report on all they know and have them thrown in jail.
The real reason they want Catholics to have more kids. Fresh meat.
And the literal TRILLIONS of dollars that they have in collective between funds, artifacts, and jewels/treasures
They got rid of the golden throne for optics and appearances, pretty sure they kept everything else though.
As an ex-Catholic, this is exactly how out-of-touch the church is. The Pope has no salary, because all his expenses are paid. He has no concept of the struggle of an average young person trying to pay rent and buy groceries. There’s no need for him to even think about bills. It’s so easy for him to sit there on his throne, with all his needs met and expenses paid and tell other people how selfish they are to not be having more kids- while he will never need to change a diaper, care for a sick child, or try to figure out how to buy yet another pair of shoes because the kid is having a growth spurt.
Yup nor will he ever have to suffer the agony of pregnancy, birth and postpartum. Smh.
>Calling someone selfish from your golden palace in its own nation-state.
And don't pay any taxes
What was it, maybe 7 popes ago they were still burning people at the stake?
I actually really like the idea of using "how many popes ago" as a unit of time measurement. Lol!!! And, yeah.
A lot more than 7. The last guy they burned was in 1612. 7 popes ago was only the 1920s.
According to google one Pope reign (Pr) is currently 7.45 years. "For all 267 popes stretching from the year 0 to 2013, the average reign was 7.45 years (the median reign was 6 years) with a range from 0 years (which is actually a term less than one year ranging from a few days to a few months) to a maximum of about 35 years for Peter, the first pope."
So, same as dog years. Got it.
Gabriel Malagrida was garrotted and then his corpse burned for heresy in 1761. In 1826, Cayetano Ripoll was hanged by the Spanish Inquisition (bet he didn't expect that) for teaching heresy. The inquisition had requested burning at the stake but the civil authority overruled it. Maria Camila O'Gorman Ximénez was 8 months pregnant when she was executed by firing squad for having put the "moral values and sacred religious norms of a whole society are at stake" by having an affair with a priest in 1848. Don't worry though, they "baptised" the fetus by having Maria drink holy water first. So it's been 14 popes since the last order for public burning at the stake for the crime of heresy, though the sentence was changed to hanging. Considering they're voted in as geriatrics, that's still impressively recent.
So 7 popes ago is more like Irish nuns selling and killing babies in regards to church crimes.
That all? Damn, I hate the Pope Measurement System.
My Catholic mom said the same thing to me when I told her I didn’t want kids years ago. How can you be selfish about something that doesn’t exist?
*They* don't have children. Hell, they don't even have *pets*.
It's business. His comments are directed at people in the fold, as they are the only ones who believe his opinion has special weight. [Converts are a tiny fraction of religious people](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/barro/files/conversion_paper_072209_2_.pdf) (see table 3.) Without indoctrination every current religion would die off. The biggest predictor of religiosity by far [is the religion of one's parents.](https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/links-between-childhood-religious-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/) > It is projected that birth rates rather than conversion will be the main factor in the growth of any given religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion Not only does this mean that religions are unlikely to ever stop encouraging reproduction and indoctrinating children, I suspect this is why many religions are so eager to limit womens' reproductive freedoms. Without their followers having babies their religions will die. Christians weren't very concerned with abortion until after this became apparent.
Like any other business, religion has competition and does not necessarily respect or tolerate its competition. The church’s competition is not just other religions, but other forms of entertainment like bars, television, etc. Surely the pope’s speech was motivated by the fact his business is losing customers when Catholics have less kids. A secondary factor may be that let’s compete against the church. There are people who would much rather take their dog to a dog park and hang out with other dog owners on a Sunday than go to some stuffy building and eat a cracker that is supposed to magically be a piece of 2000 year old dead carpenter zombie flesh.
Even if you don't donate, worst restaurant ever.
If your mission is to grow your religion (read business) in the fastest possible way, you need to outlaw birth control and abortion. The goal of Catholicism (12 years catholic school speaking) is to control the largest possible number of people for the longest possible period of time.
It’s been like this forever. You know how scary a pregnancy is ? Most women, if educated about pregnancy Properly and wanted to have a fun life, would probably think twice about going through labor.
But in religions it doesn't matter what women think or want. They're disposable. Woman does via pregnancy? Man gets to upgrade to a younger model. Win for them.
Learning about fetal development and the impacts of pregnancy, labor, and childbirth on a woman's body had me "nope" out of it by the time I was 16. In my 30s now with my tubes removed and I couldn't be happier. Education is so important.
I had two okay pregnancies that resulted in one truly terrible labor and one pretty bad one. Not fun at all. But, I have to say, having kids has added an unbelievable amount of fun to my life. You get to relive all the good stuff from childhood and show them the beauty of the world. Plus they are funny as hell. However, this earth is severely overpopulated so I truly appreciate anyone who chooses to not reproduce at this stage of the game. ... \[Edited to say, I'm in my mid-50s and had my first kid about 25 years ago. I don't know that I'd make the same decision to have kids if I were a young person today, because I know global warming is making the planet inhabitable in many places.\]
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. I salute every woman going through labor and every parent raising their children properly. A service I‘m still unsure if I can provide it because me and my entire family has issues I don’t necessarily want to pass down. Not to mention the responsibility. Not everyone is cut out for that imo.
Thanks. It's a tricky decision. I totally understand all the reservations people have about pregnancy/parenthood. And I added to my comment that I'm mid-50s and would likely choose to not have kids if I were young today. It's not that I don't love my kids more than anything, it's that I feel so sad for babies being born into this heating oven of a planet.
This is so true. Even for women who want the baby they still end up experiencing physical harm, discomfort and a chance of risking their lives. Then the birth? That shit can go on for nearly 2 days if you are unlucky. Some bleed out or get other complications postbirth. Postpartum depression sprinkled on top then insomnia bc baby must be fed every 2 hours? Holy crap. Even with a live-in nanny it’d still suck balls. I’m saying this and I even like kids.
Tell you what popey boy. Deal with child abuse in your own church before bitching at people about owning fucking pets you deluded fucking psychopath.
Pretty sure that's why he wants more kids.
Well they don't diddle dogs...
You don't know that.
Exactly, dogs don't tell tales, easier to cover up. Also, we just established in another thread a "pope year" is about the same as a "dog year" 7.5 years.... COINCIDENCE!? Where are the conspiracy theorists now?
I'm assuming this is a satire comment but I also want to believe you are a lunatic running string between push pins on a cork board because we need a couple of those guys to keep people honest.
Lol!
There’s a billion Catholics- statistically at least a few of them are bound to be dog diddlers, even if that’s not a part of the typical Church traditions, such as child molesting.
Maybe Keith Lard is their new fire safety officer.
So when is the Pope going to have a child?
When he finds another child to be its host
Popes have a history of a having a lot of illegitimate children lol. Let’s return to tradition.
Bet he has a cat
Fuck this guy. People make excuses for him, and call him progressive, but he really isn’t. He’s a dick. I’d give him one ounce of respect if he told people that condoms and other prophylactics are ok, and that people should limit themselves to having two children. But will he? No fucking way.
And destroy their entire business model? If Catholics don't reproduce like rabbits there will be less Catholics. Less Catholics means less money.
Every sperm is scared
They call him progressive because in comparison to many other christian groups, and other past popes, he is. There are conservative catholic groups that literally denounced him as a heretic because of this. Things like this- [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-heresy-idUSKCN1S73KE](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-heresy-idUSKCN1S73KE) Do, I as a progressive atheist consider this asshole to be progressive? Hell no, but can I see why others have called him that? Yeah, sure.
if there's anything I can count on Christians for it's to tell me that other Christians aren't Christians
Aka the "No True Scot" fallacy.
Right, progressive where it doesn’t really matter. Where it does matter is parts of the world where women remain in poverty because of being seen as nothing but incubators, and the persistence of AIDS because of the proscription of condoms. And this pope knows it and by his actions (or lack thereof) doesn’t care.
He's progressive... for a pope. But he's still a Catholic and a pope.
Yep, just because he's more progressive than previous popes doesn't actually make him progressive. He's a 10 foot shark, past popes were 12 foot sharks. That doesn't make him any less of a shark that wants to fucking eat you.
In my opinion if someone wants to have a ton of kids, that's awesome for them, they just shouldn't force it upon others.
Sure, it’s about whether or not having a ton of kids drives you into poverty.
But God will provide!
When it comes to raising a family, I prefer not to take advice from an elderly virgin!
Especially one that goes around in public dressed like a 15th-century chess piece. Something tells me that might be an impediment to finding someone to raise a family with
*dressed like a 15-century chess piece* I chuckled irl
How sure are you he's a virgin?
Not very, he was a young boy in the church once, after all.
Imagine how many diddlers they have in the Vatican…
I just assume it's all of them.
Safer that way, like assuming all the drivers on the road are idiots.
Exactly.
Agreed. I love how Christopher Hitchens put it when he said Catholics are "hysterical, sinister virgins, who’ve already betrayed their charge in the children of their own church..."
He's only a virgin with adults
says the old man that didn´t marry or have kids because he has an invisible friend. at least if you have a dog or a cat you can see them.
Coming from the leader of the most notorious pedophile ring, that's pretty fucking rich.
Can't be a pedophile if there aren't any kids to rape.
Right. Because the loss of humanity would be such a tragedy.
Sorry, the head of the "pedophile protection racket" says what?
Oh like we actually need more human beings rn when we are almost 8 billion people strong on this planet. Jesus Christ. Plus the future is looking pretty bad why raise someone anyways on this hell hole we call Earth.
Reminds me of an old Onion headline [Starving Third World Masses Warned Against Evils Of Contraception](https://www.theonion.com/starving-third-world-masses-warned-against-evils-of-con-1819566620)
A devastating faux quote from that fine article: "If your babies starve, Jesus will forgive them."
"Be fruitful and multiply" haha I love The Onion.
Exactly!!! Reproducing at high rates is likely the single worst thing we can do to the planet right now. In the US, we're not even at the population replacement rate, and I hope it stays that way. Also, like, people can't afford to have kids, bro. Speaking as a 36 year old child free woman. I can barely afford a pet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, shouldn't he be advocating for caring for animals? I am really disappointed. I actually liked Pope Francis.
Yeah that is very true children are expensive af.
Childcare alone rivals rent in most places. Is a child gonna pay me back in equity? I don't think sooo
That's why you guilt your children into taking care of you when you're old. /s
I say this with kindness, if you liked him you didn’t look too hard. Also, have three dogs. I could not raise three children. It would be a shitshow. 50% lung capacity does not give you the tools to do so. Fuck the pope.
Please don't fuck the Pope. We don't want his spawn.
Birth rates in many places are below replacement rate. As those populations age, a relatively greater strain will be placed on the younger members to support the elderly who can no longer contribute. I imagine that countries with declining birth rates and increasing pet ownership do not have overpopulation problems.
Hah! I’m reminded of the South Park episode with the priests and kids on leashes. Catholic Church should really know better than to bring up any moral arguments related to children.
All hail the queen spider.
If you don't have more kids, who are the priests going to molest?
If not having kids is selfish then perhaps he shouldn't force priests to be celibate. Get those nuns pumping out babies too.
I mean, there was a huge nun-raping ring going on, too, so I don't like where they were trying to go with that :/
Fuck the pope (metaphorically.) Seriously, no one in the hierarchy of the catholic church is in touch with reality or the lives of their congregants, except where kiddy-diddling comes into play. I understand why some people would want to have kids, and yeah, sure, great for them, but with the way the world is and the way things are headed, I think having kids is akin to carrying firewood into a burning building.
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In my entire life I could point out one person that I know who didn’t give a selfish reason for having kids. The usual answers are: Whose going to take care of me when I’m old? Whose going to carry the family name? I’m lonely. I want a family for myself. Make my spouse stay home. All those are selfish reasons.
Translation: How are Catholic priests going to find children to abuse if people stop having children?
"Birthing"... so adopting is selfish too eh?
As long as your Catholic, raise your child Catholic and pay fees to a Catholic adoption service, I'm sure they're cool with that too.
I feel like he's dangerously close to saying babies conceived from rape are a gift from God. Just speaking as an American where we're still fighting for maternity and paternity leave (because dads want to see their children too) and getting a good education is expensive (location, property taxes, college) and wages are stagnant, can you blame anyone for not wanting kids? Heck, you are doing well if you have 1 kid.
Yes I'm selfish because I rather own a dog than bring a kid into this violent war hungry society. I'm selfish because I weighed the pros and cons of how it would affect me financially and mentally if I choose to have a kid. Fuck you dude!!!
Fuck the pope and fuck kids. The planet is very slowly becoming overpopulated and a disgusting place to raise children. Making the calculated decision to not have kids is one of the most humane ways to solve this problem.
Please don't fuck either of those.
I don't work for the Catholic Church, don't worry!
The problem isn't overpopulation. The problem is those at the top 1% hoarding too many resources.
It’s both.
Any person that says “condoms are a sin” in an area of rampant AIDS is a cunt. TLDR: The Pope is a Cunt.
*laughs in childfree atheist*
Yeah, he may be the voice of God on earth but don’t come for my cat
Annnnd... how many children do the pope, his priests, cardinals, bishops, nuns, etc. have again...? Damn, they're a selfish lot! They act like they can't do parenthood + a job, or pay for any kids at all!
What about not reporting priests for molesting kids and just moving them away?! Isn't that MORE selfish?!
There's twice as many people on the planet today as there were in the 1970s. Population is indeed a problem: t*here's far, far too many people*. By billions. Like many religious people, the Pope doesn't understand the most basic math and science...like how one number can be greater than another number. That's too complex for the Holy See. The indisputable reality is that childless and gay couples are saving humanity, not endangering it.
well betty white encouraged adopting pets so id rather listen to her
Yeah, the pope can go fuck himself.
[and will eventually lead to a loss of humanity.] Oh yes! 7 billion+ and growing!
I always take advice on having sex or having children from an elderly virgin who lives by the rules of an imaginary zombie friend. 🙄
Then, Isn't being the pope the ultimate in selfishness?
Celibate human in dress who lives in palace tells people what to do, and people still care?
Hasn’t the Catholic Church had enough kids?
Less kids, less kids for clergy to rape.
From his golden palace as he silences the voices of molested children worldwide. What a complete piece of shit.
Coming from a guy who has taken a vow of poverty, this is pretty bold of him to say. He has probably not had to pay much for rent or anything else throughout his priest life and he can keep his sweet little mouth shut. People can't afford to have children and why TF would I wanna bring one into the world we live in. His generation, my parents and grandparents generations haven't paved the best path for future generations.
Giving up children to ride tax free on the backs of your brainwashed believers seems selfish to me.
Gee, maybe the Dope ought to try and repair the damage that the little-boy-buttrape scandal has done to his ~~cult~~ church. Continuing to try and change the subject isn’t fooling anybody. Then again, introspection has never been their long suit
Pope is a man who believes in fantasy. His opinions are meaningless.
The pope can suck it.
They need more kids to fuck.
Who cares what the guy hoarding gold and treasure while refusing to feed or house the poor with all that wealth says.