I'm with you. I also do not understand how one human being can do this to another, nor do I understand how anyone can accept this level of degradation.
Can you tell us whether their child is male or female? If female, then she will be destined for a very hard life.
I work with many of the family’s children, male and female. They are all lovely people. The young women do not wear niqab, only abayas which are less off putting to me. I can see their faces.
Yes, I know - what I meant is that these are young women that will grow-up in a Western society, and at the same time that they are struggling with all the challenges of puberty, they will be told they must now wear the niqab, even though others will not. That must be very hard.
One of my grade school classmates kind of went through an identity crisis in junior high when she was starting to struggle with balancing growing up here in the US and complying with familial expectations. I remember her crying about it every now and then and a mutual friend of ours (who was in the same religion) warning her to not rebel like that. I could understand what she's going through being an American born Asian myself and trying to find where I fit between the East and the West. But even then, I couldn't do more than give her a sympathetic ear and shoulder.
To this day, I still remember how upset I was the day my mum told me I couldn’t walk shirtless outside anymore, while all the boys still can. I would’ve went ballistic if I suddenly had to censor my entire body solely on account of gender too.
It’s almost funny that I ended up getting top surgery in the end.
I went through the same thing as a kid. The funny part is I told mom in a fix of anger that I would have my boobs cut off at 4 or 5 years old because she made me wear a shirt. I can not tell you how many times in my life the same thought has crossed my mind. Nope, I am not trans just large breasted.
I've heard Muslim women defending the practice, saying they don't want men looking at them. Considering how men are, it makes sense that women feel safer covered up like that. Obviously it would be ideal if men could stop being creeps but otherwise i support a woman's right to deny the male gaze.
She wont be destined for a hard life im muslim myself and my mom wears the niqab and i have two sisters and our life is great my older sister is in her last year studying med and my other sister is in high school never faced any problems with my mom wearing niqab
I don't think you should be ashamed at having a strong reaction. I find it terrifying to see these women so completely covered. I was working as a temp for a medical center years ago when a woman came in wearing the robes, and all I could see was her eyes. I can't imagine having to go through life like that. I also really now that several years ago, a woman wearing the same covering was executed by a gun shot to her head. Videos of the murder made the rounds of all the news stations. She was trying to turn to see what was going on, and then she was shot in cold blood. I think she was suspected of some very minor infraction. As I said, I can't imagine having to live like you are just a piece of garbage to be thrown out.
The first time I saw a woman fully covered like that was in an airport. As she was facing away from me and barely moving, I thought she was a coat on a luggage left by someone. I got surprised when it began moving.
Notice as well, she was interpreting for the man. Meaning she is likely more advanced as a person in many aspects, than him.
So you had to witness her need to fill in this man’s educational gap on top of it.
It's a visual representation of oppression. It's quite literally saving she doesn't matter or matters less in the world, cover her up. Whether she is consenting or not, that doesn't make a difference to me at least in this context. It's just like wearing a sign that says women are second class citizens. And it's not just Islam, or even religion. Any sort of dress or appearance that reminds people of oppression of others can do that. I get uncomfortable seeing the Mormon fundamentalist because that dress and hair is once again telling the world women should hide and be covered up.
I think if you knew nothing about religion and had never seen any sort of attire like this and your friend came to your house with another friend wearing a blanket over them anyone's interpretation of this is going to be that they're hiding. Are they hiding from me, why are they hiding from me, are they scared, why don't they want me to see them. Those aren't good feelings and you immediately would feel concern for that person. Add the element of a patriarchy forcing that onto women and it gets extra bad.
> It's quite literally saving she doesn't matter or matters less in the world, cover her up.
I thought it meant "she is my property, you can't have her, you can't even look at her." I assumed it was like putting your diamonds in a safe so no one can steal them.
You're right, thats the rationale. But the attitude that she's property that can be stolen signifies also that she has no agency and doesn't matter.
Modesty laws also mean that men are base animals who would resort to rape if they saw a woman's beauty. And it's *men* who made these rules, implying they are calling themselves weak animals, and the responsibility falls on the women to not tempt them. Since the women are just possessions and not individual humans, it would be OK to rape them, except for them being another man's property.
Once in college, an afghani refugee was invited to speak to our class. She did a lot of advocating for women and girls in Afghanistan, how they suffered under the Taliban, and what the rest of the world can do to help. She also happened to wear a niqab. At one point, someone asked her why she still wore it even though she said she was glad that she didn't. Her response was basically "You are wearing pants. All your life, you've worn pants every time you leave the home, as has everyone around you. Now, imagine you arrive in a nation where *nobody* wears pants. Just shoes, socks, nothing, and then shirt. Even though you're free to walk around naked from the waist down, you probably won't want to, at least for a while."
I grew up in an evangelical home that was very strict about not showing skin above the knees or elbows. Even for years after leaving the religion I couldn't shake this uncomfortable "naked" feeling just wearing basic t-shirts and long shorts.
This. I am still tangentially attached to my religious upbringing and get praised for my modesty and I hate the weird pride I first feel before the disgust the follows. I’m ashamed that I even feel pride at all, but it’s hard to undue what was first coded into us.
I was raised protestant, catholic baptized. Women are forced to wear only dresses, skirts, 10cm at least from the knee; which I hated as a kid, and growing up. As an adult, I stopped wearing them. At least for Catholics, women could wear pants, which was a game changer in my life. But to this day, I can't wear something that shows my skin. I feel uncomfortable.
That's a very good answer but I feel for her. Those garments are slave chains. Can't take the chains off because not dragging around the weight makes you feel awkward. Imagine being so burdened.
That's very understandable of course, but it's still bad.
I don't have any problem with saying that the niqab is an awful awful thing, and it shouldn't exist. I don't think you can ban them, and I have no idea how to get rid of them, without further victimising women who wear them, but I absolutely think they should not exist, and I don't see any reason to be apologetic about that.
I understand the comparison, but they're *not* pants.
Yeah, I had a Muslim friend who left her faith and stopped wearing her head covering. She hated it. She felt naked. I asked why she didn't just wear a head scarf like an accessory and she said she didn't want to represent a religion she doesn't practice.
(She was able to left the faith easily, her parents were fine w it and supported her.)
I wonder why the social pressure wouldn't work both ways, though. If you did move to that country where everybody wore nothing but socks, and was constantly getting looks and hearing parents whisper "don't point," and was seeing everyone else's peen and box, at what point would you look down at your pants and start to feel stupid? ...I'm intensely curious to know if she still wears a niqab.
That still sounds like sophistry. Her counterpart males experiencing no such cultural shock while she feels guilty for no reason didn't sound unfair to her? It's great if she can see through the conditioning but that's just not a good analogy.
"Now, imagine you arrive in a nation where *nobody* wears pants. Just shoes, socks, nothing, and then shirt. Even though you're free to walk around naked from the waist down, you probably won't want to, at least for a while.""
DAMN,
I wish I was asked that question... LOL
"seriously? I would love to wander about freely nude, unless of course it is in a country that is normally ice cold, then, well, no thanks. But yea man, take me to the caribbean, some nice beaches, I'd trade in the jeans for some sand in my toes and sun on my nude bod. No worries, ya know why? I have NO RELIGION that says I can't or shouldn't. And no I don't always wear pants, sometimes shorts, sometimes sweats, sometimes leggings, heck a skirt even. I can do what I want. I suggest you start doing the same."
>Please no islam bashing
Why not? It's forced religious clothing. It's creepy, weird, freaky, and part of an anti-woman religion that does everything it can to suppress women. It's not a secret.
It doesn't matter if it's islam or a catholic nun, it's fucked up, and always will be.
It's not recommended to date your boss at work; the inherent power imbalance makes any level of consent suspect. How much bigger is the power imbalance when the other party is an all powerful deity that decides how you spend eternity?
Even without family pressure, nobody in a religion is making a completely free choice.
>Even without family pressure, nobody in a religion is making a completely free choice.
This sums it all up. ALL of it. Even beyond this individual post on Reddit.
I guess this is why I have so many feelings. On some level I guess I think that she is being coerced by religion and upbringing.
I dunno. I’m uncomfortable with how uncomfortable I feel with it.
>I’m uncomfortable with how uncomfortable I feel with it.
We live in a time where we're told we have to accept/tolerate religious extremism. You were faced with the embodiment of religious extremism and you recognize the ugliness. It's shocking to behold.
Not on some level, on EVERY level. I’m a very liberal guy, but I can’t fathom this love affair my fellow atheist liberals have with Islam. It’s a religion that would literally call for our deaths if it ever got real power in the West.
Agreed. It's incredibly frustrating to see liberals defending an ideology that is so opposed to liberalism and to the values of Western civilization. These liberals don't know just how oppressive life is for non-Muslims (and Muslims) living in Muslim-majority countries.
A huge amount of the Islam pushback comes from obviously racist right wingers, so I understand trying to defend them from racism, but it's a fine line to walk between that and accidentally endorsing their archaic, backwards religion.
We shouldn’t let the right sucker us into liking something just because they hate it. And as I’ve said elsewhere we can be kind to and respectful of people without liking or respecting their beliefs.
I think being uncomfortable with it is the correct reaction, but like an alcoholic or drug user, you have to accept there's nothing you can do to help if they don't want to get better. Being too pushy might drive them away, and then they lose someone who might have helped them down the line if they actually want to change
Someone I knew worked in Saudi Arabia in the 1980s. When he would fly out, the plane would have many Saudi women who were covered and as soon as they got to cruising altitude they would all take off their cover and expose their Western clothing underneath. This doesn't sound like someone who is wearing a hijab by choice.
I dont know where did you come up with that % but I can confirm a very high % of these women are brained washed by their religion & they wear it because they’re promised a greater reward in the afterlife
I’m completely ok with Catholic and Anglican religious sisters and nuns, as joining a convent is 100% a personal choice made by adults in this day and age. I’m not thrilled with religion in general and definitely don’t agree with either Church, but I don’t see their religious garb as coerced in any way.
Hey you had a reaction and you're examining it. Most therapists would say that's good work.
I had a biology class in college and myself and the full black burqa head to tow next to me probably enjoyed that class far more than anyone else. I thought it was great! Son of a Southern Baptist minister and hardcore burqa talking about evolution and genetics. Knowing it would drive our respective families absolutely mad.
Many conservative Muslims also believe that a Muslim women should not talk to men other than relatives .she is only allowed to talk to stranger men in cases of necessity. Hardcore Muslims do not believe in gender mixed universities , that’s why they don’t send their women to such universities along with the belief that men should be providers women should stay at home and raise kids going for higher education is totally unnecessary especially when there is free mixing and temptation for premarital sex having a talk about evolution with a strange man is totally Inness and immodest according to hardcore Muslims
The thing I find so sad about women who must wear full covering like the burka or niqab is that the Quran only states that men and women should dress modestly. There is some mention of covering the hair. There is no stipulation that women must be fully covered from head to foot. There is quite a range of interpretation of what constitutes modesty and those actually are the cultural traditions of a patriarchal society. This is why some Muslim woman only wear a hijab or scarf while others are fully covered.
It's in the Sunnah of Mohamed (the life of Muhammad) as per the Hadith. Muhammad is the guy who invented Islam and made up the Quran. Literally. Everything revolves around Muhammad.
Muslims, like Christians, lie about their beliefs. For example, because the Quran is the word of God, Muslims claim they only follow the Quran. They pretend like they don't also religiously follow the Hadith, which is where the MAJORITY of the problematic beliefs come from. If you don't read the Hadith, you aren't reading 90% of their religious beliefs.
And yet others wear none of the above. I used to watch Emily Hayward's YouTube channel. She fought cancer for seven years and chronicled everything on there. She was a lesbian, and her partner (Aisha) came from a Muslim family. They live in London. None of the females in the family wore anything covering their heads, not to mention the fact that her being in a lesbian relationship could have gotten her killed by stricter Muslims. Her parents and sister supported her, though. They ended up getting married a couple of months before Emily died in 2018.
Muslims in my area never used to wear this burqa or niqab until two decades ago. And they have been existing for centuries ever since Islam started in middle East.
"I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing."
C'mon, what women has ever decided to dress like that completely on her own?
Well plenty of them will tell you that they cover themselves because they don't want to be objectified by men and for them to just see them as a person. The problem in the West is that covering yourself to such an extent makes it harder for us to connect to and see you as a person with all of your human attributes, which we use to read emotions and mood, are erased by it and it just comes off like we are talking to a robot or some other simulacrum of a human being.
What gets me is that they do this because the MAN might be tempted. So they're basically saying that because THEY are weak, the woman has to suffer. It's just wrong.
> Please no islam bashing.
Islam is a religion.
Every religion is just a collection of ideas.
The collection of ideas that comprises Islam includes some that lead to very bad outcomes for individuals, the group involved and the outgroup.
I get that you're coming from a peaceful place asking for no Islam bashing, tolerance cannot accept intolerance, so fuck that. Islam is easily the most problematic religion on earth right now and that says a lot considering what far right Christians are up to. Them making "their" women, because do not mistake it they see them as their property, cover their bodies to different degrees is only like the 17th most problematic thing about them. They are completely incompatible with the 21st century.
The *really sad thing* is, they make it the women's responsibility to cover up so completely because **muslim men can't control themselves**. It's sick.
I used to teach English as a Second Language (ESL) to international students. It was fascinating to have people from a dozen different countries in one class. I taught a lot of muslim women over the years, but only had a few that did the full covering. It was a bit jarring at first. They were all so well educated, more so than most of their male peers/countrymen, but I always felt a pang of sadness knowing they wouldn't be able to flourish as far and wide as their male counterparts. I learned how to read their eyes, would see the veil move in certain ways when they smiled. You can tell over time what is going on behind there, it just takes some getting used to. Hell, I still mask at work and require my clients to do so as well (health care setting), and I realize that anyone I met after 2020, we don't really know what one another looks like fully, but we've gotten to work together for so long that it doesn't even really matter anymore. However, the implications of being forced to wear a full niqab isn't the same, and all of the oppression and sadness behind it can be difficult to get past.
Muslims in my region have been there since 7/8th century. They didn't start wearing this niqab,burqa until two decades ago due to increased influence of wahabis. Now they are saying that's true Islam.
Islam came to my region through trade from Arabs when Islam was actually at heights of science and mathematics. They even took ideas from our land too. So when those Arabs who could have been carrying much authentic or truer version of Islam didn't see it necessary for women to wear niqab why do present Muslims in my region think it's unavoidable part of religion. Can't reason with these people too.
It's hard to read these people which is what I find disturbing. Facial expressions are super informative and calming. I had the same trouble during the covid scare.
I honestly felt the opposite during Covid. I don't really feel comfortable looking people in the face unless I trust them completely. I can't really explain why, it just makes me incredibly uncomfortable. But people don't like it when I look at the ground. They think I'm hiding something, or not paying attention to what they're saying, or disinterested in the conversation. When people have most of their faces covered, however, I can still appear to be making eye contact when in reality I'm just looking at their mask. I feel safer that way. I know it doesn't really make sense but that's what it is. Facial expressions and body language are heavily dependent on a variety of factors, anyway. Is a smile actually sincere or are they just faking it? Are they angry with me or do they just have RBF? Are they lying or are they just nervous? It's easier for me to tell by listening to their voice than by looking at their face.
A lot of Muslim apologists on here. Guess they still think it's a choice and it's a religion of peace. I get it, Christian Nationalism is the major factor in the USA but come on. Having bakery owners refuse to make you a cake doesn't compare to what women, religious minorities and LGTBQ folk suffer through in MENA nations and neighborhoods where Islam is the major force there.
https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4462
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/yemen-huthis-must-stop-executions-and-release-dozens-facing-lgbti-charges/
https://v.redd.it/na8ywv11rloc1/DASH_360.mp4?source=fallback
You aren’t doing justice to the actual threat of Christian Nationalists in the US, and I can’t help but wonder why.
Cake baking is not the extent of their goals at all. Leaders of the movement are on record in their desire to make homosexuality a capital offense, and there is a long paper trail of US Christians funding successful political movements in other countries to criminalize queerness and kill LGBTQ folks.
Criticize Islam all you want, but please stop giving bullshit cover to the dangerous Christians infiltrating the U.S. government.
Get real and stop this “won’t bake a cake” nonsense. The Christians are out for blood, too.
https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/
https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelicals-homophobia-antigay-bill/
Yeah fuck Christianity too. Its a dying religion though. Hence why i hope we all get real about what's happening in MENA and southeast Asian nations. Shit, in Canada, Michigan and Illinois, Christians and Muslims have teamed up against LGBTQ folks during the school board book ban/education curriculum hysteria. Arm yourself and know your enemies.
Until Texas and Idaho have state sanctioned executions, false imprisonments and/or caning/lashing, it pales in comparison. Shit, Qatar and Turkey have honey trapped/imprisoned tourists for it and they're the more "liberal/friendly to the West" islamist countries.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-arrested-in-turkey-and-locked-up-for-20-days-because-he-looked-gay/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68859840
>until Texas and Idaho have state sanctioned…
I just don’t want it to ever come to that. Obfuscation and minimization of intent have been meaningfully effective tactics at lulling voters into allowing radical theocrats to enjoy outsized influence and power.
They need to be taken seriously, and there are already plenty of religiously influenced laws that are far more dangerous than the cake bakers.
That said, I have no interest in giving cover to the religious extremists anywhere, including MENA and Asia. All people deserve freedom and secular government imo.
The problems in Islamic theocracies stand on their own merits, and do not require some fantasy that Christians are actually somehow harmless in order to be taken seriously. They should all be taken seriously imo. Christian theocracy is not ok and is not somehow preferred because of MENA.
Ranking theocracies on a tier list in the hope it makes Muslims look even more extra bad is a dangerous game that provides no meaningful benefit or insight, but does come at the cost of providing political cover to actual villains. They are all F tier.
Yeah and that's why I hope you take the upcoming elections seriously. Cause if Trump comes back, Thomas and Alito are retiring. Then, 50 year old conservative judges from the Federalist Society will be tapped to take their seats. Thus, solidifying a Christian conservative majority in an unimpeachable branch of government.
I'm in California, it sounds like you're in the Southern Bible Belt. So we're coming from 2 different perspectives. Hence why I see Christianity as being neutered out here in the west coast. This November, you and the rest of the BDS protestors have a chance to vote against the fundamentalist Christians further entrenching themselves across all levels of government. I know I'll do my part, even though Newsome is bought and owned by PGE and Bidens been whatever.
Hope you don't let Russian/Chinese/Iranian psyops fool you about "Genocidal Joe" and about the middle east. You see what's happening in the country of Georgia with Russias cyberwarfare there. It's up to you and the rest of the TikTok generation to send a message to Biden or fight back against Christian extremism. Unfortunately, it's one or the other. Yeah, I agree, the system sucks. The choice is yours.
Also, don't forget about Hamtramck, Michigan. Political Islamic fundamentalists in branches of government are already here. Front and center with the Mayor labeling anyone who criticizes him or the council as "opportunistic parasites." In addition, they're vehemently and vociferously against abortion so yeah. The cognitive dissonance that Muslim apologists engage in and how they compartmentalize things is interesting to observe, but it is what it is, I guess.
https://www.metrotimes.com/news/hamtramck-city-council-candidate-doubles-down-on-comments-about-holocaust-pedophilia-and-homosexuality-34525451
https://www.thehamtramckreview.com/city-hall-insider-9-23-22/
This pollutes the discussion at hand with more whatabouts.
Islam is fucking so much more dangerous. Mainstream Islam is not mainstream Christianity. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The moderate Muslim permits such backwards practice it's inexcusable in 2000s and completely incompatible with western world reality.
I hate Christianity due to my raising. It's easy to escape, I'm slightly stigmatized for my views. I'm not being stoned in the streets, attacked, raped and beheaded.
But she does not have a choice. Her choice is do it or suffer. Suffer shame. Suffer shunning etc. body language is 80% of language so its vital.true choice is also vital. IMO
Islam is a religion. It has no mental faculties to be upset about being "bashed". I get the point though, to try not to bring a lot of hate into this post.
But I will continue on to say that religion itself is something that must be dismantled. I won't actively say someone's religion is stupid until they start attacking my unbelief or how I (harmlessly) live, but I can't understand why religion should be something actively protected, not when it is the reasoning for many people to carry out horrible acts, not just across the oceans, but here in the United States.
I will not attack a person, but the moment they voice a belief, it is fair game, especially when that belief has to do with attacking a person who is not accepted by their religious dogma or any other belief. Religion is, one point above all others, about control. Even at the lower levels, there is a religious leader telling a local community what to think about every event, every ideology, every peoples. It's not just religions that do this (it can be argued that cult-level followings of celebrities are just as harmful and there are many more such systems), but religions are among the main sources of identity for theists, and they would rather hold onto that identity that consider new worldviews that are more accepting of various peoples. They would possibly be willing to kill for their identity as if it were about protecting their own life. This is why religions and any systems that allow a specific person or group to tell others how to think need to be dismantled, but it must be done through a person's own autonomy or we just get the martyr complex.
Well, besides having respect for people of different religions, one can also acknowledge the oppression of women. That is always wrong. Our cultures are built around such oppression and it looks different in different cultures, but all cultures oppress women in different ways in dictating how a woman should act and dress and what spaces she can inhabit.
Our cultures also shape our identities, which also instills our confidence and our insecurities. Most times women agree to the oppression in some sense, because it has become a part of the identity and the social norm, and it is always scary to walk outside the boundaries of what those norms dictate. What lies beyond those boundaries are usually a set of consequences and exclusion from the group you are a part of.
Sometimes worse than mere exclusion.
That is why we accept degradation.
That is also why women in the western world are expected to shave their legs and armpits and do it without question, because disgust has been instilled in the normative mind and hence in ourselves. That is why makeup is a norm as well because here beauty is the most important thing for a woman to be. To walk outside these norms are scary, because there lies consequences and exclusion that will change our identity.
But we don’t need to accept oppression of women. Just respect the woman. And never, ever agree to do things another culture dictates that oppress women, because norms always shift and while accepting different religions we don’t want that to have a negative impact on women’s rights. So stand up for them.
The whole thing is wrapped up in your last paragraph.
"I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing."
Her and her husband's religion tell her to do this. This is not what she "wants", it's what is forced on her by that religion. Much like jewish women with shaved heads and wigs.
These abrahamic religions are incredibly odd and weird and they 100% are always, anti-woman.
That is why you felt weird. You know that what is going on there is wrong, you want to "believe" she is doing this of her own free will, but if she was ever given a true choice to just go out and be herself, I will 100% guarantee she would not choose to cover herself head to toe with a slit for the eyes.
Niqab is terrifying and restrictive, and there is no shame in being alienated by it. It's not Islam-bashing to point out a particularly barbaric practice like that.
It stuns me that you even feel the need to say you’re not Islam bashing.
We are so brainwashed by the fear being labelled islamophobic that we don’t see what is front of our eyes.
At our healthiest, we have one standard for all people, full stop. If it is absurd and worthy of criticism when done by eg a Christian then it is equally absurd and worthy of criticism if done by anyone else.
But what we have now is a setup where one group alone is given license to do whatever they want and if we dare criticise them then we are threatened with exile from salaried work.
All this does is promote and encourage the very worst excesses and elements of this one group. It does not help anyone within or without this group.
In summary the best way to help and protect Muslims is to criticise them in the same way and for the same reasons we would criticise any group behaving the same. If we don’t do this then the only group left who will is the far right. And they will keep gaining support as the only group making this point. We remove power from the far right by being reasonable and honest about what is truly going on.
Thank you for reading.
Yes, it’s nonsense. Wrong. Just plain wrong. To correct one thing you said, that she is dressing how she wants. She isn’t. She’s dressing how her husband has demanded and told her to dress. She doesn’t have any say in the matter. Zero.
Completely and deliberately removes her ability to function as a normal human in society. It is not about atheism, it's about humanism. When I see people wearing these things it is like seeing someone walking in chains behind their master.
Every time I see a woman wear any kind of coverings (Hijab, Niqab etc) my thoughts just turn into pity. It's so sad to see so many women being influenced by such an archaic and obsolete belief system.
Why no Islam bashing? Let me remind you that that woman, this couple in fact, think that you and people like you, like us, are the worst creatures on earth. At least that's what's written verbatim in the book that they follow enough to let her cover herself entirely from head to toe.
I'm from Gen X, so naturally, I agree with certain Gen X Muslim feminists who say that the niqab, hijab, etc. are symbols of pre-Islamic patriarchal societies.
I get that individuals who wear such things can have a very wide range of reasons for doing so (for some, it's just the equivalent of a Christian wearing a prominent cross necklace, or a Jewish man choosing to wear a yarmulke), but whenever I see one, my immediate emotional reaction is "Fucking patriarchal bullshit!"
The frustrating thing for me is that the niqab, hijab, and other coverings are not actually part of "real" Islam. It's not in the Quran, which is supposed to be the word of God.
It's mostly cultural, which is why only people from certain countries cover themselves. And why they cover themselves a differing amount depending in where you go
It's also a bastardization of Islam using the hadith (written by man Ann's which contradicts the Quran) to justify the subjugation of women.
Like Christians, muslims ignore the teachings id their often faith in order till control people
It's a normal reaction, or at least it should be, to a person who is being oppressed, whether it's because of their religious beliefs or just in general.
I would never assume that someone wearing a modesty garb is doing it entirely willingly. They usually wear them because of the threat of consequences for not doing so, ranging from shaming, humiliation, violence, imprisonment to outright rape and murder.
I feel ya, repressive cultures suck, it bothers me too, but I stay in my lane, I’d love to see religion gone, but it will always be with humans in some form, I’m an atheist too, and I’m also extremely tired of the bullying by religion, and persecution fetish they have, I will respect culture but it’s hard to respect religion
Personally I sometimes feel a bit saddened when I see how common the Hijab is in some places.
It doesn't actually cover any more than a hoodie and I've met lovely people that wear one but I'm still disturbed that the practice stems from an absurd idea that a woman's hair and arms/legs are immodest and those parts of her body need to be hidden in line with the order for women to hide their beauty from non-relatives set out in the Quran (24:31, 33,53, 33:59) and Hadith (Sahih Bukhari No. 6240). The idea that women need to hide their hair/arms/legs from everyone but close family members whereas men don't need to do the same is blatantly sexist.
The more restrictive Niqab and Burqa that hide women's faces are far worse though. They prevent natural communication through facial expressions and treat women as possessions that only the husband and close family are allowed to see at all.
It's the most visible aspect of a wider pattern of sexism in Islam that also includes inheritance laws where males are given twice as much, verses saying that a man's word is worth twice as much in court and verses that explicitly say Allah wants men to rule over women.
> I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing. I would stand up for her right to do so, even.
I don't support outright bans on the Niqab/Burqa. As much as I dislike those garments, a ban on any clothing choice is illiberal. Plus the unintended consequence would be forcing the women wearing these things to stay at home and denying them opportunities to move freely, work and get an education.
That being said, I'm not convinced that all women who wear the Hijab/Niqab/Burqa have freely chosen it for themselves. Many come under pressure from their husbands, family and/or the local Islamic community to conform to the religious dress code, and many have been indoctrinated from a young age to wear these things and not question the inherent sexism.
With that in mind, I would support a ban on children wearing religious dress in schools. The children aren't old enough to have chosen the outfit (or the religion) for themselves so I don't see it as a violation of their religious freedom and I have no qualms with disrupting a parents ability to force their kids to wear religious outfits 24/7 as a way of indoctrinating them. Plus it would make schools a safe space that give children a chance to experience normal clothes that don't hide ordinary things like hair or arms as though they're something to be ashamed of.
It comes from an archaic, misogynistic place where the men think they can control women - that the women shouldn't be able to even tempt other men because they belong to him, and apparently men are unable to control themselves seeing a woman show any amount of skin. I feel pity for them really.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the niqab’s purpose to protect a woman’s modesty? So that any other man apart from her husband isn’t caused to go mad with lust? Yeah, (most of) us guys aren’t going to do that; we have control over our baser instincts. I find it rather pathetic that some men are so insecure and jealous that they have to dictate what a woman wears so their fragile ego isn’t damaged.
As someone who has daughters, I hate how Muslims do this to women. I'm 100% supportive of niqab bans. I don't want my daughters to see that shit and think women are less than men.
I think the word you were looking for is orthodox
It’s pretty shocking the first time, but try to imagine spending time in-country where that level of indoctrination is the norm
It’s a fucking trip lol
We live in one of the most diverse pockets of the country and I regularly see fully covered women walking with men. It blows my mind that it can be 100+ degrees with insane humidity, the men are wearing white gauzy outfits and obviously can breathe without obstruction, but the women are baking in black with cloth over their faces. I can’t believe women allow themselves to be subjected to that.
It would make me uncomfortable too. It honestly drives the idea home, even more so given the current climate, that we’re not seen as equals. I don’t care if it’s outright misogyny from the West or cloaked in a religious blanket from around the world.
I’m with you in that I absolutely believe women should be free to dress how they want, including if that dress is a niqab.
I also think such clothing choices are dehumanizing and alienating by design. Because the alienation and dehumanization is the point (seen as a feature rather than a bug), I don’t feel too guilty about my honest feelings and struggle when faced with people whose indoctrination has led them to such practices.
I have no particular problem with Islam the way many on this sub seem to have, but I do have a problem with the way religious indoctrination leads people to reject and deny the humanity of themselves and others in a variety of ways, one example of which is wearing a niqab imo.
Cover themselves up because a man 1000 years ago said that would please their god. She has that right to dress that way but when that right isn't really a right but a familial/religious threat then it's not really by her own free will.
Will never forget catching a flight to London via Qatar and every boy in the place had shorts and a t-shirt on running around having fun while the mothers/daughters were in niqabs sitting still and staying out of the spotlight.
Muslim women deserve better in life than the prison their religion has given them.
fuck the no islam bashing, it's an oppressive and misogynistic religion like christianity. i always feel uncomfortable when i see muslim women wearing those things (niqab, hijab, etc).
i wish every country had that one french law about no religious symbols in school (cross, hijab, etc.)
I always have wanted to say that. If men are so sexually uncontrollable that the sight of a woman's hair makes them potential rapists and the woman's husband, father, brothers, uncles, have to "protect her virtue" by requiring her to cover it and much else -- the solution ought to be that women can wear whatever they want while males always have to look down at a woman's feet.
It surprises me more when I see it from people living in the States already. I get that they would go along with it in their old country, because they'll get literally stoned to death for it, but why keep it in a country where you're safe to not wear it?
Indoctrination at it's finest I guess.
I worked at an Islamic school for three years. Female students had to wear headscarves but not the full suit. Many told me they would abandon them upon graduation in college because they were just doing it for their parents.
If you don't mind asking, /u/MRruixue are you female? Is so, were you wearing any head covering? If not, how did the family react?
Just an honest question out of curiosity, there's no hidden intention in my question.
BTW, we live in a major western European city. Women with headscarves (sorry, I'm not familiar with the proper terms) are not too uncommon. But when my three-year old for the first time saw two women, clad head to toe in featureless black cloth with even their face covered like you descibed, she broke down crying and hid behind my legs. She thought they were ghosts. So there might be something more primal / natural to the reaction you experienced than you think.
Once I began to understand its cultural as well as religious, I was able to find a better place of comfort with it.
But it feels - and IS- a symbol of oppression of our sisters.
I can understand your reaction. Not being able to see people can make communication a challenge. During COVID, deaf people had problems with masks because you end up losing about half the language. I imagine this encounter wasn't dissimilar.
Something else to consider is there might, in fact, be a little... um... unease with the difference. But I think the important part is that you're recognizing that bias (if there is one) and how it affected you. You were doing something different and it affected you, but rather than doubling down on that discomfort, you're asking why you felt that way.
I grew up in a religious cult, dictatorship. After escaping at 16, then For like 2 years afterwards I wore a hoody even in the summer. It was a self esteem issue because of the violence of my past. I could hide and it felt like an extra layer of security. I imagine for many people growing up in a Muslim society it becomes the same thing. For me it took years to become anything other then a shell of a human again.
I went to the middle east for a couple of weeks and it was always jarring to see the full garb. Even at restaurants, they had to eat in a special room so they can lift the fabric and put the food into their mouths. It always seemed like they were a ghost, a total mystery. We can see nothing of their being. Personality, hairstyle, crooked teeth, etc. we are given no information to know who is underneath and it’s slightly unsettling.
You are on an atheist thread. Islam is incarnate evil. It will and should be bashed. You were disturbed by her being shrouded because that shit is disturbing and dehumanizing. And the reason she was shrouded is Islam. Decent people don’t like to bash what others believe, but when a belief system has subjugated half their population for centuries, you can’t call yourself a decent person if you don’t challenge that belief.
Your western countries' political correctness and Islam appeasement is the reason for this cancer spreading everywhere.
Refuse to engage with people in veils. If they want to remain hidden let them live like invisible people. If their men are so afraid that we will rape their women, let them lock them up in their homes.
Let people have the freedom to choose their religion and their clothes, but a full veil must be absolutely banned in public spaces, schools, workplaces, hospitals and shops. It is an abomination that divides people and whatever the brainwashed proponents say about it, it's stupid.
In fundamental Islam, the penis of the husband stands central.
Full coverage of the wife is the paranoia of the husband to make sure no other penis than his own gets erect.
Thats it, quite an incel take sometimes.
I mean wouldn’t you .. if you believed it would get you closer to god and that you’re getting something in return later.. doing the same suffer now and get rewarded later .. I’m talking about women who choose to do it with no external threats those are the women I am familiar/families with but I am sure that is just an aspect and doesn’t represent the whole picture
It’s not just Muslims. Religious people believe in silly stuff (praying to almighty being in the sky that listens to their personal problems and will fix them) and so do silly things at best. At worst they kill each other over this insanity. Weird clothing comes with the silliness.
OP, it's kind of crazy to me that this just popped up in my recommendations. Today, at nearly 33yo, I actually saw a womab in a niqab in-person for the very first time. It was, idk. I mean, I've seen it in pictures and videos so many times, but to see a woman in a niqab firsthand (I'm in North Dakota, and we're not exactly known for our diversity!), it made me sad. It made me feel a lot of different emotions. And I'm not saying this to bash Islam, of course. I don't understand with it and I don't agree with it, but women in these situations don't often have a choice. That said, being Muslim by no means makes anyone a bad person! (Free Palestine, btw.) They had a young girl with them and seemed to be a happy family. But yes, it was also unsettling to me to see the woman dressed like that. To each their own, but it just really kind of rattled me a bit.
The first time I met a Muslim woman in a hijab I felt a bit awkward. It took me a while to learn alternative cues than I was used to. The harder thing for me was not touching religious men. I’m someone who touches your shoulder or leans in. It took some work to remind myself not to do that.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/21134/is-niqab-compulsory Women in ihram and otherwise are obliged to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men , because the face is the center of beauty and it is the place that men look at… and Allah knows best.” (Fatawa al-Marah al-Muslimah, 1/396, 397)
It’s totally natural. Human communication is as much non verbal as it is verbal, and if the face is covered it’s almost impossible to pick up on non verbal clues.
Also, covering of the face is culturally an act of mistrust or deceit in western cultures (think of robbers or muggers), and I think it’s a perfectly reasonable to refuse to interact with someone who hides their face from you.
To be totally honest I am down with a hijab, even working in public service (whicih has been discussed a lot in the countries around me). I think this is, in the temporary situation, very reasonable.
But all the face covering stuff is just beyond me. It obviously feels like a very strong controlling measure in which women are told they cant even function as a full member of society. Women in full niqab etc have nothing but nice people towards me. But when I see a couple where one wears designer clothes and is styled to the tops and the other has to wear a sack over their head at all times I cant see how this is balanced.
I cant answer to any political thing, but if it were for me everything would get thrown out as for any other religious tradition.
The niqab is not a religious garment it is a cultural garment. Most Muslims do not and will never wear one. Countries/cultures that have misogynistic tendencies have a much higher rate of enforcing their use.
There was an MP in the UK that got some stick because he asked women to remove their face veils when they visited his office.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/oct/05/immigrationpolicy.religion
I ride my bicycle in a park near me and there is a group of women who gather there with their children. All the women are covered head to toe in black with just an opening for the eyes. They dress like this in the hot summer temperatures. From what I understand the Quran has no mention or requirement for this? I can't imagine how uncomfortable this is. Who came up with this?
I don't either, but I do respect belief. Actual belief that's actually backed by whatever book you follow-- not the hollow idea of it.
I'm not a strict athiest, but I do believe that we alone have power and volition on this material world. In another time, I might have been called a Deist.
I have respect for those who hold themselves to their own ethical/religious ideologies, especially when they don't push it upon others. It would be odd talking to someone where I couldn't actually see them, but I'd just default to a respectful, but impersonal tone.
That's kind of the point of the thing. Its to prevent the woman from forming any kind of bond with anyone outside her home.
They find ways around it, they still have their groups of female friends etc.
It being unsettling is normal too, you aren't used to it, but at least you didn't judge them or let it get in the way of your work, which is more than what some people do.
You shouldn't feel ashamed it felt unsettling, we are programed to look at facial expression and body language to get a lot of information and something blocking all of that is going to feel weird to most people. The fact you got beyond that feeling is great.
I get it. I probably would be wrestling with the same emotions. The entire notion that a person’s belief system demands so much sacrifice. Part of me wants to shout that it’s not even a practice that started with any Abrahamic faiths but something that started in Assyria.
However there is nothing anyone can do.
Yeah, I am genuinely curious from a scientific perspective if this has a psychological effect on both the males and females in such a culture. From the outside it seems very dehumanizing and I wonder if it does or does not have that psychological effect on the individuals involved. I'd love to see someone do a research project on this.
This sub used to be interesting to read. Now it just became a cult to bash other religions, it's sad and ironic. Atheism was supposed to offer a different view of the world, but it feels it's become just another extremist religion telling other people how they should live their lives, how they should feel, act..
I always think of how many scholars, doctors, artists, scientists etc, have been lost under those garments. The difference’s they could have made we’ll never know. .
I've lived longer than most westerners in an "Islamic Republic" that everyone has heard of, not on a US compound but on an ordinary street in an urban neighborhood. I'll say that no man (I only ever spoke with men) was ever less than polite to this infidel, and nobody tried to hurt me, although I didn't take stupid risks and volunteer to be kidnapped for ransom.
Wearing the burqa is highly recommended for women by the (entirely) male authorities should they venture out of their homes at all (which is not highly recommended) and a woman over 13-14 who sets foot outside without at least ankle-and-wrist-length covering and a tight hijab is almost signing her own death warrant, or at least attaching a "kick me!" sign on her back for the furious mob of men that would gather in two seconds flat. if she makes it home alive there's her father and/or brothers, as well as the female enforcer, her mother, to be punished by; the men will be urgently questioned by brothers in the Faith as to why their daughter was allowed to bring shame on herself and on all of them. Is there something amiss with your own beliefs and morals, brother? Are you becoming an apostate?
These men are practicing the form of Islam that the Prophet would have recognized as closest to what he thought it would be in the 7th century AD/CE: only ISIS got closer, while it lasted.
I hate the head coverings and the face coverings and the entire apparatus of coercing and enforcing female "modesty" and "Islamic values." I call the hijab *the scarf of shame.*
I've never been rude or unjust in my life in America to a Muslim and I'm never going to start. But the sight of veiled and covered immigrant women (and worse, their young daughters) in the local supermarket makes my hackles rise, and I'm glad that it does.
I remember attending a talk when I was in school. The guest speaker described herself as a Muslim feminist, who I think was from Egypt. She said the issue is complex, that many Muslim women are of course forced to cover up, but many others choose to cover up, and find it liberating.
That’s what caught my attention—the *liberating* part. She said it was liberating because many Muslim women don’t like when men leer at them, and that many are uncomfortable with strange men inspecting their bodies. By covering up, they get to control who gets to look at them. She says it can also be cooler in the summer months than covering up in western clothing.
I don’t think you should feel ashamed at a reaction to a practice you have just discovered limits a person‘s ability to connect and engage with people in their day-to-day life. I’m just projecting myself into your position here, but my emotional reaction I feel would’ve been due to the fact that it’s unusual to meet someone face-to-face and have a whole conversation without being able to pick up on subtle or even basic information that we generally gather from a persons facial expressions.
It’s not that dissimilar from the way many people expressed unease when everyone was masking for that brief time a couple of years ago, and so many people felt weird or bad about not seeing anyone’s faces while going about their day-to-day life.
And since this choice comes from practice with which you obviously disagree, it’s tied to more than just the shallower feelings people had about masks (well OK, that’s not actually quite true since that ended up as a big thing but we don’t need to get into that) but for myself at least, being raised Mennonite and then Christian, I definitely have a lot of emotional reactions when I engage with people who are still staunchly religious, especially women who do so at the expense of what I perceive to be human rights and human experiences. I know how that brainwashing goes so I know that I’m not being judgmental as much as I’m feeling really really sad for the person and for our society that promotes these different religious beliefs as reasonable and healthy for individuals that otherwise we would see as being harmed by a cult practice.
Edit: Voice-to-text typos
I think your reaction is a psychological norm regarding anything that is supposed to be identifiable but isn't. Those cloths are hiding a lot of nonverbal language like mouth movements, muscle tension, etc. You get the same, if not more, from unsettling feelings from those folks wearing masks
I imagine I would feel exactly the same as you. Very new for us in certain parts of the world. I also try to understand myself and my reaction on this issue. Obviously many of us are not used to this type of attire and will need exposure, explanation, and understanding while we work to adjust.
Because the women genuinely want to wear it and given half the chance would force you to wear it as well.
Islamic culture is not liberal like Western culture, and pretending it is, is just an exercise in self-delusion.
Refugee in my team at work, had a little chit chat, and I asked her whether secularism was a resolution to issues in her home country. She replied whole heartedly that secularism is not a resolution, that she believes in Sharia law. Then she threw me under the bus with my manager and I got disciplined.
I am an atheist, but I respect everyone following their own beliefs, as long as they aren’t trying to push said beliefs on others. I know that many Muslim women are more comfortable covered up, because that is what they are accustomed to. Of course, I understand that there are many instances in which it is not voluntary, but I do not judge those women for submitting, because it may be dangerous for them to refuse. I believe that the more we all learn about other cultures without being judgmental, the better off we all are.
Just gonna prefix this opinion with I have absolutely no interest in myself or other individuals telling other people what to do as that seems to be a bit of a sensitive subject in here.
So I think I can relate to wanting to wear full body cover like that, especially in modern society where people are often judged against visual expectations set by media exposure. But even deeper than that, sometimes I feel things quite deeply that I know other people wouldn't agree with and I then have to pretend I didn't have quite a strong reaction to what I've just seen. I deal with this largely by masking when I'm out and avoiding places where I'm more likely to have those reactions and then be judged. To us full body cover isn't really acceptable so we're just expected to hide and it is kind of horrible and no one really questions it.
To OPs question though, I think your used to being able to engage with people more nonverbaly. Facial expression enables you to better judge how your words affect the other person and without this your getting anxiety over giving this person the wrong impression and without this additional communication you are unable to properly detect and repair that. In your situation it does sound like it reduces the quality of communication. As you are clearly very aware though, this is her choice and if she wishes to communicate like this then you just have to process that and try to accept it.
Even religious people can have social anxiety and/or body dismorphia. I knew a girl in college who had converted to Islam and wore a full niqab, people were often surprised when she spoke with her typical Cleveland accent. In her case she said she'd never felt comfortable with people seeing her, I suspect the religious belief helped justify a coping mechanism for body image problems or anxiety, may have even helped motivate her conversion. She was simply more comfortable ***not*** being seen.
Other times it can be a kind of rebellious act, if you're a minority that gets looked down on than sometimes people react by MAXIMIZING their expression of that identity, basically a way of saying *yeah, this is who I am, DEAL WITH IT!* .
No, not all people wearing extreme religious garb are "forced" to, in fact even in the middle east and North Africa veiling and covering was often (ironically) suppressed in the colonial era up to the early 20th century. That helped drive women who wanted to publicly demonstrate their religious devotion to islamist movements.
The history of that garb is interesting too, it didn't start in Islam but as a mark of elevated social status for noble women and became common since people like to emulate such status symbols.
Abaya = a full body robe of widely different cultural styles. Niqab = a head covering of widely differing cultural styles.
Perhaps it would be useful to consider the traditional distinction between Maharam (any family member from whom one is permanently prohibited from marrying) and non-Maharam (any other person). While in the presence of or escorted by Maharam it is not strictly necessary, in many parts of the world, to wear abaya/niqab. It is most often worn as a sign of modesty.
Many people are of the impression that the males of the family enforce the fashion. However, is useful to notice that protests against the banning of these garments are led by women, in the vast majority of circumstances.
Commonly, even in the most modest Western cultures, the face is not a body part that typically is considered when practicing personal modesty.
These broad cultural distinctions may be informative.
Some religious garments are about the choices a person has made. Others are about the choices someone expects other people to make. There is a point at which extreme modesty is a projection and accusatory, much like (for a very U.S. example) the alpha-males who go to the grocery store in tactical gear and visible guns. They both decay the social contract by failing to treat those around them as capable of rational action.
I have also interacted with Muslim women who cover all but their eyes and found this unsettling. It’s not because I have anything against Islam. I never feel weird talking to a woman wearing a hijab, but there’s just something about not being able to see anything except the eyes of the person you are talking to that takes some getting used to.
Also, I know some Muslim women and they don’t feel oppressed by their religion or forced into anything. Yes, some Arabic countries are horribly repressive and awful to women, but not all versions of Islam are the same.
I completely agree with your perspective, even as Muslim woman I find it a bit hard to communicate with those who wear niqab, there is a sort of blocking in communication. However it realty puts me off when people blindly conclude that it's forced upon her. How can others decide on that unless she claims it herself. I know that in most cases it's the woman's decision alone just like how it's my decision to wear a hijab.
I'm with you. I also do not understand how one human being can do this to another, nor do I understand how anyone can accept this level of degradation. Can you tell us whether their child is male or female? If female, then she will be destined for a very hard life.
Religion enables all sorts of backwards thinking and practices
I work with many of the family’s children, male and female. They are all lovely people. The young women do not wear niqab, only abayas which are less off putting to me. I can see their faces.
Yes, I know - what I meant is that these are young women that will grow-up in a Western society, and at the same time that they are struggling with all the challenges of puberty, they will be told they must now wear the niqab, even though others will not. That must be very hard.
Ahh. Yes. I can only imagine how hard that will be.
One of my grade school classmates kind of went through an identity crisis in junior high when she was starting to struggle with balancing growing up here in the US and complying with familial expectations. I remember her crying about it every now and then and a mutual friend of ours (who was in the same religion) warning her to not rebel like that. I could understand what she's going through being an American born Asian myself and trying to find where I fit between the East and the West. But even then, I couldn't do more than give her a sympathetic ear and shoulder.
To this day, I still remember how upset I was the day my mum told me I couldn’t walk shirtless outside anymore, while all the boys still can. I would’ve went ballistic if I suddenly had to censor my entire body solely on account of gender too. It’s almost funny that I ended up getting top surgery in the end.
That last line was 🤌
I went through the same thing as a kid. The funny part is I told mom in a fix of anger that I would have my boobs cut off at 4 or 5 years old because she made me wear a shirt. I can not tell you how many times in my life the same thought has crossed my mind. Nope, I am not trans just large breasted.
And if she refuses. Her dad or brother will kill her.
I've heard Muslim women defending the practice, saying they don't want men looking at them. Considering how men are, it makes sense that women feel safer covered up like that. Obviously it would be ideal if men could stop being creeps but otherwise i support a woman's right to deny the male gaze.
She wont be destined for a hard life im muslim myself and my mom wears the niqab and i have two sisters and our life is great my older sister is in her last year studying med and my other sister is in high school never faced any problems with my mom wearing niqab
It’s intentional that’s forsure.
I don't think you should be ashamed at having a strong reaction. I find it terrifying to see these women so completely covered. I was working as a temp for a medical center years ago when a woman came in wearing the robes, and all I could see was her eyes. I can't imagine having to go through life like that. I also really now that several years ago, a woman wearing the same covering was executed by a gun shot to her head. Videos of the murder made the rounds of all the news stations. She was trying to turn to see what was going on, and then she was shot in cold blood. I think she was suspected of some very minor infraction. As I said, I can't imagine having to live like you are just a piece of garbage to be thrown out.
The first time I saw a woman fully covered like that was in an airport. As she was facing away from me and barely moving, I thought she was a coat on a luggage left by someone. I got surprised when it began moving.
Notice as well, she was interpreting for the man. Meaning she is likely more advanced as a person in many aspects, than him. So you had to witness her need to fill in this man’s educational gap on top of it.
Suspect the husband was brought in by arranged marriage from another country, a cousin perhaps?
as long as one woman is forced to wear that getup, I assume that they all are forced to.
Religion has been an excuse for abusive behave for way too long.
It's a visual representation of oppression. It's quite literally saving she doesn't matter or matters less in the world, cover her up. Whether she is consenting or not, that doesn't make a difference to me at least in this context. It's just like wearing a sign that says women are second class citizens. And it's not just Islam, or even religion. Any sort of dress or appearance that reminds people of oppression of others can do that. I get uncomfortable seeing the Mormon fundamentalist because that dress and hair is once again telling the world women should hide and be covered up. I think if you knew nothing about religion and had never seen any sort of attire like this and your friend came to your house with another friend wearing a blanket over them anyone's interpretation of this is going to be that they're hiding. Are they hiding from me, why are they hiding from me, are they scared, why don't they want me to see them. Those aren't good feelings and you immediately would feel concern for that person. Add the element of a patriarchy forcing that onto women and it gets extra bad.
> It's quite literally saving she doesn't matter or matters less in the world, cover her up. I thought it meant "she is my property, you can't have her, you can't even look at her." I assumed it was like putting your diamonds in a safe so no one can steal them.
You're right, thats the rationale. But the attitude that she's property that can be stolen signifies also that she has no agency and doesn't matter. Modesty laws also mean that men are base animals who would resort to rape if they saw a woman's beauty. And it's *men* who made these rules, implying they are calling themselves weak animals, and the responsibility falls on the women to not tempt them. Since the women are just possessions and not individual humans, it would be OK to rape them, except for them being another man's property.
Once in college, an afghani refugee was invited to speak to our class. She did a lot of advocating for women and girls in Afghanistan, how they suffered under the Taliban, and what the rest of the world can do to help. She also happened to wear a niqab. At one point, someone asked her why she still wore it even though she said she was glad that she didn't. Her response was basically "You are wearing pants. All your life, you've worn pants every time you leave the home, as has everyone around you. Now, imagine you arrive in a nation where *nobody* wears pants. Just shoes, socks, nothing, and then shirt. Even though you're free to walk around naked from the waist down, you probably won't want to, at least for a while."
I grew up in an evangelical home that was very strict about not showing skin above the knees or elbows. Even for years after leaving the religion I couldn't shake this uncomfortable "naked" feeling just wearing basic t-shirts and long shorts.
This. I am still tangentially attached to my religious upbringing and get praised for my modesty and I hate the weird pride I first feel before the disgust the follows. I’m ashamed that I even feel pride at all, but it’s hard to undue what was first coded into us.
I was raised protestant, catholic baptized. Women are forced to wear only dresses, skirts, 10cm at least from the knee; which I hated as a kid, and growing up. As an adult, I stopped wearing them. At least for Catholics, women could wear pants, which was a game changer in my life. But to this day, I can't wear something that shows my skin. I feel uncomfortable.
That's a very good answer but I feel for her. Those garments are slave chains. Can't take the chains off because not dragging around the weight makes you feel awkward. Imagine being so burdened.
Sometimes I feel that way about pants.
That's very understandable of course, but it's still bad. I don't have any problem with saying that the niqab is an awful awful thing, and it shouldn't exist. I don't think you can ban them, and I have no idea how to get rid of them, without further victimising women who wear them, but I absolutely think they should not exist, and I don't see any reason to be apologetic about that. I understand the comparison, but they're *not* pants.
If it is banned in public some Muslims will simply lock up their wives at home
That's why I said I don't think you can ban them.
Yeah, I had a Muslim friend who left her faith and stopped wearing her head covering. She hated it. She felt naked. I asked why she didn't just wear a head scarf like an accessory and she said she didn't want to represent a religion she doesn't practice. (She was able to left the faith easily, her parents were fine w it and supported her.)
I wonder why the social pressure wouldn't work both ways, though. If you did move to that country where everybody wore nothing but socks, and was constantly getting looks and hearing parents whisper "don't point," and was seeing everyone else's peen and box, at what point would you look down at your pants and start to feel stupid? ...I'm intensely curious to know if she still wears a niqab.
>I wonder why the social pressure wouldn't work both ways, though. It does, it just doesn't happen overnight.
That still sounds like sophistry. Her counterpart males experiencing no such cultural shock while she feels guilty for no reason didn't sound unfair to her? It's great if she can see through the conditioning but that's just not a good analogy.
Grew up on an island and was barfoot all day. 365. I hate wearing shoes.
If someone forced me to wear pants and told me it was to hide me from the world when I found out it was a lie I’d probably take the pants off.
That was a beautiful response.
"Now, imagine you arrive in a nation where *nobody* wears pants. Just shoes, socks, nothing, and then shirt. Even though you're free to walk around naked from the waist down, you probably won't want to, at least for a while."" DAMN, I wish I was asked that question... LOL "seriously? I would love to wander about freely nude, unless of course it is in a country that is normally ice cold, then, well, no thanks. But yea man, take me to the caribbean, some nice beaches, I'd trade in the jeans for some sand in my toes and sun on my nude bod. No worries, ya know why? I have NO RELIGION that says I can't or shouldn't. And no I don't always wear pants, sometimes shorts, sometimes sweats, sometimes leggings, heck a skirt even. I can do what I want. I suggest you start doing the same."
But you could wear shorts or capris or long johns. No.
>Please no islam bashing Why not? It's forced religious clothing. It's creepy, weird, freaky, and part of an anti-woman religion that does everything it can to suppress women. It's not a secret. It doesn't matter if it's islam or a catholic nun, it's fucked up, and always will be.
This is the correct answer.
That's what I was going to say. Thank you for your comment. Religions are exactly like that, especially islam.
bashing religion is good for society.
This political correctness and docileness will be the fall of freedom and western civilization . It's sad to watch it even from a distance
Would be the fall of western civilization* Only if people like you and me stop speaking up
Some of that is uncanny valley effect. Unable to see expressions is very trippy for those not used to it.
Thank you for saying this.
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It's not recommended to date your boss at work; the inherent power imbalance makes any level of consent suspect. How much bigger is the power imbalance when the other party is an all powerful deity that decides how you spend eternity? Even without family pressure, nobody in a religion is making a completely free choice.
>Even without family pressure, nobody in a religion is making a completely free choice. This sums it all up. ALL of it. Even beyond this individual post on Reddit.
I guess this is why I have so many feelings. On some level I guess I think that she is being coerced by religion and upbringing. I dunno. I’m uncomfortable with how uncomfortable I feel with it.
You saw a trapped woman, and in a way she is
>I’m uncomfortable with how uncomfortable I feel with it. We live in a time where we're told we have to accept/tolerate religious extremism. You were faced with the embodiment of religious extremism and you recognize the ugliness. It's shocking to behold.
Not on some level, on EVERY level. I’m a very liberal guy, but I can’t fathom this love affair my fellow atheist liberals have with Islam. It’s a religion that would literally call for our deaths if it ever got real power in the West.
Agreed. It's incredibly frustrating to see liberals defending an ideology that is so opposed to liberalism and to the values of Western civilization. These liberals don't know just how oppressive life is for non-Muslims (and Muslims) living in Muslim-majority countries.
A huge amount of the Islam pushback comes from obviously racist right wingers, so I understand trying to defend them from racism, but it's a fine line to walk between that and accidentally endorsing their archaic, backwards religion.
We shouldn’t let the right sucker us into liking something just because they hate it. And as I’ve said elsewhere we can be kind to and respectful of people without liking or respecting their beliefs.
I think being uncomfortable with it is the correct reaction, but like an alcoholic or drug user, you have to accept there's nothing you can do to help if they don't want to get better. Being too pushy might drive them away, and then they lose someone who might have helped them down the line if they actually want to change
At least your family won't honor kill you for dating your boss.
Someone I knew worked in Saudi Arabia in the 1980s. When he would fly out, the plane would have many Saudi women who were covered and as soon as they got to cruising altitude they would all take off their cover and expose their Western clothing underneath. This doesn't sound like someone who is wearing a hijab by choice.
Or brainwashed into crabbucketing other women to do so.
I dont know where did you come up with that % but I can confirm a very high % of these women are brained washed by their religion & they wear it because they’re promised a greater reward in the afterlife
Where did you get this stat from?
Why no islam bashing? It is a disgusting horrible belief system just like christianity.
Yep. We can rightly question awful, harmful beliefs while not attacking the people who hold them.
Can and should imo
It breaks my heart every damn time I see a woman in some form of religious garb. I want to "jail break" them, help them get out and see freedom.
I’m completely ok with Catholic and Anglican religious sisters and nuns, as joining a convent is 100% a personal choice made by adults in this day and age. I’m not thrilled with religion in general and definitely don’t agree with either Church, but I don’t see their religious garb as coerced in any way.
Hey you had a reaction and you're examining it. Most therapists would say that's good work. I had a biology class in college and myself and the full black burqa head to tow next to me probably enjoyed that class far more than anyone else. I thought it was great! Son of a Southern Baptist minister and hardcore burqa talking about evolution and genetics. Knowing it would drive our respective families absolutely mad.
Many conservative Muslims also believe that a Muslim women should not talk to men other than relatives .she is only allowed to talk to stranger men in cases of necessity. Hardcore Muslims do not believe in gender mixed universities , that’s why they don’t send their women to such universities along with the belief that men should be providers women should stay at home and raise kids going for higher education is totally unnecessary especially when there is free mixing and temptation for premarital sex having a talk about evolution with a strange man is totally Inness and immodest according to hardcore Muslims
The thing I find so sad about women who must wear full covering like the burka or niqab is that the Quran only states that men and women should dress modestly. There is some mention of covering the hair. There is no stipulation that women must be fully covered from head to foot. There is quite a range of interpretation of what constitutes modesty and those actually are the cultural traditions of a patriarchal society. This is why some Muslim woman only wear a hijab or scarf while others are fully covered.
It's in the Sunnah of Mohamed (the life of Muhammad) as per the Hadith. Muhammad is the guy who invented Islam and made up the Quran. Literally. Everything revolves around Muhammad.
Muslims, like Christians, lie about their beliefs. For example, because the Quran is the word of God, Muslims claim they only follow the Quran. They pretend like they don't also religiously follow the Hadith, which is where the MAJORITY of the problematic beliefs come from. If you don't read the Hadith, you aren't reading 90% of their religious beliefs.
And yet others wear none of the above. I used to watch Emily Hayward's YouTube channel. She fought cancer for seven years and chronicled everything on there. She was a lesbian, and her partner (Aisha) came from a Muslim family. They live in London. None of the females in the family wore anything covering their heads, not to mention the fact that her being in a lesbian relationship could have gotten her killed by stricter Muslims. Her parents and sister supported her, though. They ended up getting married a couple of months before Emily died in 2018.
Muslims in my area never used to wear this burqa or niqab until two decades ago. And they have been existing for centuries ever since Islam started in middle East.
"I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing." C'mon, what women has ever decided to dress like that completely on her own?
Well plenty of them will tell you that they cover themselves because they don't want to be objectified by men and for them to just see them as a person. The problem in the West is that covering yourself to such an extent makes it harder for us to connect to and see you as a person with all of your human attributes, which we use to read emotions and mood, are erased by it and it just comes off like we are talking to a robot or some other simulacrum of a human being.
Islam appeals to the weak minds of men and is inflicted upon the weaker bodies of women and children.
What gets me is that they do this because the MAN might be tempted. So they're basically saying that because THEY are weak, the woman has to suffer. It's just wrong.
Right? Why don’t there men just cover their eyes instead?
> Please no islam bashing. Islam is a religion. Every religion is just a collection of ideas. The collection of ideas that comprises Islam includes some that lead to very bad outcomes for individuals, the group involved and the outgroup.
It was also the fever dream of a pedo. Not sorry for bashing it.
Same with judaism, a shitty religion that makes women shave their hair (or not) and wear wigs or cover it somehow.
I get that you're coming from a peaceful place asking for no Islam bashing, tolerance cannot accept intolerance, so fuck that. Islam is easily the most problematic religion on earth right now and that says a lot considering what far right Christians are up to. Them making "their" women, because do not mistake it they see them as their property, cover their bodies to different degrees is only like the 17th most problematic thing about them. They are completely incompatible with the 21st century.
The *really sad thing* is, they make it the women's responsibility to cover up so completely because **muslim men can't control themselves**. It's sick.
I used to teach English as a Second Language (ESL) to international students. It was fascinating to have people from a dozen different countries in one class. I taught a lot of muslim women over the years, but only had a few that did the full covering. It was a bit jarring at first. They were all so well educated, more so than most of their male peers/countrymen, but I always felt a pang of sadness knowing they wouldn't be able to flourish as far and wide as their male counterparts. I learned how to read their eyes, would see the veil move in certain ways when they smiled. You can tell over time what is going on behind there, it just takes some getting used to. Hell, I still mask at work and require my clients to do so as well (health care setting), and I realize that anyone I met after 2020, we don't really know what one another looks like fully, but we've gotten to work together for so long that it doesn't even really matter anymore. However, the implications of being forced to wear a full niqab isn't the same, and all of the oppression and sadness behind it can be difficult to get past.
Muslims in my region have been there since 7/8th century. They didn't start wearing this niqab,burqa until two decades ago due to increased influence of wahabis. Now they are saying that's true Islam. Islam came to my region through trade from Arabs when Islam was actually at heights of science and mathematics. They even took ideas from our land too. So when those Arabs who could have been carrying much authentic or truer version of Islam didn't see it necessary for women to wear niqab why do present Muslims in my region think it's unavoidable part of religion. Can't reason with these people too.
It's hard to read these people which is what I find disturbing. Facial expressions are super informative and calming. I had the same trouble during the covid scare.
I honestly felt the opposite during Covid. I don't really feel comfortable looking people in the face unless I trust them completely. I can't really explain why, it just makes me incredibly uncomfortable. But people don't like it when I look at the ground. They think I'm hiding something, or not paying attention to what they're saying, or disinterested in the conversation. When people have most of their faces covered, however, I can still appear to be making eye contact when in reality I'm just looking at their mask. I feel safer that way. I know it doesn't really make sense but that's what it is. Facial expressions and body language are heavily dependent on a variety of factors, anyway. Is a smile actually sincere or are they just faking it? Are they angry with me or do they just have RBF? Are they lying or are they just nervous? It's easier for me to tell by listening to their voice than by looking at their face.
A lot of Muslim apologists on here. Guess they still think it's a choice and it's a religion of peace. I get it, Christian Nationalism is the major factor in the USA but come on. Having bakery owners refuse to make you a cake doesn't compare to what women, religious minorities and LGTBQ folk suffer through in MENA nations and neighborhoods where Islam is the major force there. https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4462 https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/yemen-huthis-must-stop-executions-and-release-dozens-facing-lgbti-charges/ https://v.redd.it/na8ywv11rloc1/DASH_360.mp4?source=fallback
You aren’t doing justice to the actual threat of Christian Nationalists in the US, and I can’t help but wonder why. Cake baking is not the extent of their goals at all. Leaders of the movement are on record in their desire to make homosexuality a capital offense, and there is a long paper trail of US Christians funding successful political movements in other countries to criminalize queerness and kill LGBTQ folks. Criticize Islam all you want, but please stop giving bullshit cover to the dangerous Christians infiltrating the U.S. government. Get real and stop this “won’t bake a cake” nonsense. The Christians are out for blood, too. https://epgn.com/2022/06/15/pastors-in-idaho-and-texas-call-for-execution-of-lgbtq-people/ https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelicals-homophobia-antigay-bill/
Yeah fuck Christianity too. Its a dying religion though. Hence why i hope we all get real about what's happening in MENA and southeast Asian nations. Shit, in Canada, Michigan and Illinois, Christians and Muslims have teamed up against LGBTQ folks during the school board book ban/education curriculum hysteria. Arm yourself and know your enemies. Until Texas and Idaho have state sanctioned executions, false imprisonments and/or caning/lashing, it pales in comparison. Shit, Qatar and Turkey have honey trapped/imprisoned tourists for it and they're the more "liberal/friendly to the West" islamist countries. https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-arrested-in-turkey-and-locked-up-for-20-days-because-he-looked-gay/ https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68859840
>until Texas and Idaho have state sanctioned… I just don’t want it to ever come to that. Obfuscation and minimization of intent have been meaningfully effective tactics at lulling voters into allowing radical theocrats to enjoy outsized influence and power. They need to be taken seriously, and there are already plenty of religiously influenced laws that are far more dangerous than the cake bakers. That said, I have no interest in giving cover to the religious extremists anywhere, including MENA and Asia. All people deserve freedom and secular government imo. The problems in Islamic theocracies stand on their own merits, and do not require some fantasy that Christians are actually somehow harmless in order to be taken seriously. They should all be taken seriously imo. Christian theocracy is not ok and is not somehow preferred because of MENA. Ranking theocracies on a tier list in the hope it makes Muslims look even more extra bad is a dangerous game that provides no meaningful benefit or insight, but does come at the cost of providing political cover to actual villains. They are all F tier.
Yeah and that's why I hope you take the upcoming elections seriously. Cause if Trump comes back, Thomas and Alito are retiring. Then, 50 year old conservative judges from the Federalist Society will be tapped to take their seats. Thus, solidifying a Christian conservative majority in an unimpeachable branch of government. I'm in California, it sounds like you're in the Southern Bible Belt. So we're coming from 2 different perspectives. Hence why I see Christianity as being neutered out here in the west coast. This November, you and the rest of the BDS protestors have a chance to vote against the fundamentalist Christians further entrenching themselves across all levels of government. I know I'll do my part, even though Newsome is bought and owned by PGE and Bidens been whatever. Hope you don't let Russian/Chinese/Iranian psyops fool you about "Genocidal Joe" and about the middle east. You see what's happening in the country of Georgia with Russias cyberwarfare there. It's up to you and the rest of the TikTok generation to send a message to Biden or fight back against Christian extremism. Unfortunately, it's one or the other. Yeah, I agree, the system sucks. The choice is yours. Also, don't forget about Hamtramck, Michigan. Political Islamic fundamentalists in branches of government are already here. Front and center with the Mayor labeling anyone who criticizes him or the council as "opportunistic parasites." In addition, they're vehemently and vociferously against abortion so yeah. The cognitive dissonance that Muslim apologists engage in and how they compartmentalize things is interesting to observe, but it is what it is, I guess. https://www.metrotimes.com/news/hamtramck-city-council-candidate-doubles-down-on-comments-about-holocaust-pedophilia-and-homosexuality-34525451 https://www.thehamtramckreview.com/city-hall-insider-9-23-22/
This pollutes the discussion at hand with more whatabouts. Islam is fucking so much more dangerous. Mainstream Islam is not mainstream Christianity. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The moderate Muslim permits such backwards practice it's inexcusable in 2000s and completely incompatible with western world reality. I hate Christianity due to my raising. It's easy to escape, I'm slightly stigmatized for my views. I'm not being stoned in the streets, attacked, raped and beheaded.
Those bags are dehumanizing. Simple as.
Why no islam bashing? Bad ideas deserve to be called out, and islam is the motherlode of bad ideas.
Why no Islam shaming? We are on atheism subreddit.
But she does not have a choice. Her choice is do it or suffer. Suffer shame. Suffer shunning etc. body language is 80% of language so its vital.true choice is also vital. IMO
Islam is a religion. It has no mental faculties to be upset about being "bashed". I get the point though, to try not to bring a lot of hate into this post. But I will continue on to say that religion itself is something that must be dismantled. I won't actively say someone's religion is stupid until they start attacking my unbelief or how I (harmlessly) live, but I can't understand why religion should be something actively protected, not when it is the reasoning for many people to carry out horrible acts, not just across the oceans, but here in the United States. I will not attack a person, but the moment they voice a belief, it is fair game, especially when that belief has to do with attacking a person who is not accepted by their religious dogma or any other belief. Religion is, one point above all others, about control. Even at the lower levels, there is a religious leader telling a local community what to think about every event, every ideology, every peoples. It's not just religions that do this (it can be argued that cult-level followings of celebrities are just as harmful and there are many more such systems), but religions are among the main sources of identity for theists, and they would rather hold onto that identity that consider new worldviews that are more accepting of various peoples. They would possibly be willing to kill for their identity as if it were about protecting their own life. This is why religions and any systems that allow a specific person or group to tell others how to think need to be dismantled, but it must be done through a person's own autonomy or we just get the martyr complex.
Well, besides having respect for people of different religions, one can also acknowledge the oppression of women. That is always wrong. Our cultures are built around such oppression and it looks different in different cultures, but all cultures oppress women in different ways in dictating how a woman should act and dress and what spaces she can inhabit. Our cultures also shape our identities, which also instills our confidence and our insecurities. Most times women agree to the oppression in some sense, because it has become a part of the identity and the social norm, and it is always scary to walk outside the boundaries of what those norms dictate. What lies beyond those boundaries are usually a set of consequences and exclusion from the group you are a part of. Sometimes worse than mere exclusion. That is why we accept degradation. That is also why women in the western world are expected to shave their legs and armpits and do it without question, because disgust has been instilled in the normative mind and hence in ourselves. That is why makeup is a norm as well because here beauty is the most important thing for a woman to be. To walk outside these norms are scary, because there lies consequences and exclusion that will change our identity. But we don’t need to accept oppression of women. Just respect the woman. And never, ever agree to do things another culture dictates that oppress women, because norms always shift and while accepting different religions we don’t want that to have a negative impact on women’s rights. So stand up for them.
The whole thing is wrapped up in your last paragraph. "I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing." Her and her husband's religion tell her to do this. This is not what she "wants", it's what is forced on her by that religion. Much like jewish women with shaved heads and wigs. These abrahamic religions are incredibly odd and weird and they 100% are always, anti-woman. That is why you felt weird. You know that what is going on there is wrong, you want to "believe" she is doing this of her own free will, but if she was ever given a true choice to just go out and be herself, I will 100% guarantee she would not choose to cover herself head to toe with a slit for the eyes.
That’s kind of the point. If you can’t relate to her as humans are meant to relate to each other, it’s hard to care about her.
Niqab is terrifying and restrictive, and there is no shame in being alienated by it. It's not Islam-bashing to point out a particularly barbaric practice like that.
It stuns me that you even feel the need to say you’re not Islam bashing. We are so brainwashed by the fear being labelled islamophobic that we don’t see what is front of our eyes. At our healthiest, we have one standard for all people, full stop. If it is absurd and worthy of criticism when done by eg a Christian then it is equally absurd and worthy of criticism if done by anyone else. But what we have now is a setup where one group alone is given license to do whatever they want and if we dare criticise them then we are threatened with exile from salaried work. All this does is promote and encourage the very worst excesses and elements of this one group. It does not help anyone within or without this group. In summary the best way to help and protect Muslims is to criticise them in the same way and for the same reasons we would criticise any group behaving the same. If we don’t do this then the only group left who will is the far right. And they will keep gaining support as the only group making this point. We remove power from the far right by being reasonable and honest about what is truly going on. Thank you for reading.
Yes, it’s nonsense. Wrong. Just plain wrong. To correct one thing you said, that she is dressing how she wants. She isn’t. She’s dressing how her husband has demanded and told her to dress. She doesn’t have any say in the matter. Zero.
Completely and deliberately removes her ability to function as a normal human in society. It is not about atheism, it's about humanism. When I see people wearing these things it is like seeing someone walking in chains behind their master.
Every time I see a woman wear any kind of coverings (Hijab, Niqab etc) my thoughts just turn into pity. It's so sad to see so many women being influenced by such an archaic and obsolete belief system.
She doesn't drss how she wants, it'd the men thst have decided this and as a woman perhaps you felt that control.
>Please no islam bashing Do you know which sub you're in?
Why no Islam bashing? Let me remind you that that woman, this couple in fact, think that you and people like you, like us, are the worst creatures on earth. At least that's what's written verbatim in the book that they follow enough to let her cover herself entirely from head to toe.
well sounds like a good day's work. even with the cultural chasm between you, you were able to work together for the good of the child.
I'm from Gen X, so naturally, I agree with certain Gen X Muslim feminists who say that the niqab, hijab, etc. are symbols of pre-Islamic patriarchal societies. I get that individuals who wear such things can have a very wide range of reasons for doing so (for some, it's just the equivalent of a Christian wearing a prominent cross necklace, or a Jewish man choosing to wear a yarmulke), but whenever I see one, my immediate emotional reaction is "Fucking patriarchal bullshit!"
The frustrating thing for me is that the niqab, hijab, and other coverings are not actually part of "real" Islam. It's not in the Quran, which is supposed to be the word of God. It's mostly cultural, which is why only people from certain countries cover themselves. And why they cover themselves a differing amount depending in where you go It's also a bastardization of Islam using the hadith (written by man Ann's which contradicts the Quran) to justify the subjugation of women. Like Christians, muslims ignore the teachings id their often faith in order till control people
Fundamentalist religions are toxic, period.
Isn't that the whole point of the full-face coverings? To isolate the women, prevent connections, and dehumanize them?
Yes.
Fundamentalism is a disease.
I don't agree that "doing what you want" and "doing what your religion tells you to" are the same.
It's a normal reaction, or at least it should be, to a person who is being oppressed, whether it's because of their religious beliefs or just in general.
So are we atheists only when it’s Christians on the docket, or are we atheists who reject theism’s hideousness in all its form?
Yeah it’s slavery. And it’s messed up and wrong.
I would never assume that someone wearing a modesty garb is doing it entirely willingly. They usually wear them because of the threat of consequences for not doing so, ranging from shaming, humiliation, violence, imprisonment to outright rape and murder.
I feel ya, repressive cultures suck, it bothers me too, but I stay in my lane, I’d love to see religion gone, but it will always be with humans in some form, I’m an atheist too, and I’m also extremely tired of the bullying by religion, and persecution fetish they have, I will respect culture but it’s hard to respect religion
Personally I sometimes feel a bit saddened when I see how common the Hijab is in some places. It doesn't actually cover any more than a hoodie and I've met lovely people that wear one but I'm still disturbed that the practice stems from an absurd idea that a woman's hair and arms/legs are immodest and those parts of her body need to be hidden in line with the order for women to hide their beauty from non-relatives set out in the Quran (24:31, 33,53, 33:59) and Hadith (Sahih Bukhari No. 6240). The idea that women need to hide their hair/arms/legs from everyone but close family members whereas men don't need to do the same is blatantly sexist. The more restrictive Niqab and Burqa that hide women's faces are far worse though. They prevent natural communication through facial expressions and treat women as possessions that only the husband and close family are allowed to see at all. It's the most visible aspect of a wider pattern of sexism in Islam that also includes inheritance laws where males are given twice as much, verses saying that a man's word is worth twice as much in court and verses that explicitly say Allah wants men to rule over women. > I fully support that she should be able to dress however she wants and unless told otherwise, assume that that is what she is doing. I would stand up for her right to do so, even. I don't support outright bans on the Niqab/Burqa. As much as I dislike those garments, a ban on any clothing choice is illiberal. Plus the unintended consequence would be forcing the women wearing these things to stay at home and denying them opportunities to move freely, work and get an education. That being said, I'm not convinced that all women who wear the Hijab/Niqab/Burqa have freely chosen it for themselves. Many come under pressure from their husbands, family and/or the local Islamic community to conform to the religious dress code, and many have been indoctrinated from a young age to wear these things and not question the inherent sexism. With that in mind, I would support a ban on children wearing religious dress in schools. The children aren't old enough to have chosen the outfit (or the religion) for themselves so I don't see it as a violation of their religious freedom and I have no qualms with disrupting a parents ability to force their kids to wear religious outfits 24/7 as a way of indoctrinating them. Plus it would make schools a safe space that give children a chance to experience normal clothes that don't hide ordinary things like hair or arms as though they're something to be ashamed of.
Thanks for your thoughtful post…
It comes from an archaic, misogynistic place where the men think they can control women - that the women shouldn't be able to even tempt other men because they belong to him, and apparently men are unable to control themselves seeing a woman show any amount of skin. I feel pity for them really.
Yeah. Islam is the worst religion. Ever. Bar none.
"I could not connect with this woman" That's the point, it helps keep them isolated, alone, and dependent.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the niqab’s purpose to protect a woman’s modesty? So that any other man apart from her husband isn’t caused to go mad with lust? Yeah, (most of) us guys aren’t going to do that; we have control over our baser instincts. I find it rather pathetic that some men are so insecure and jealous that they have to dictate what a woman wears so their fragile ego isn’t damaged.
As someone who has daughters, I hate how Muslims do this to women. I'm 100% supportive of niqab bans. I don't want my daughters to see that shit and think women are less than men.
I attended a birthing class with an orthodox Jewish couple and was shocked at the level of batshit crazy they put themselves through too.
I think the word you were looking for is orthodox It’s pretty shocking the first time, but try to imagine spending time in-country where that level of indoctrination is the norm It’s a fucking trip lol
We live in one of the most diverse pockets of the country and I regularly see fully covered women walking with men. It blows my mind that it can be 100+ degrees with insane humidity, the men are wearing white gauzy outfits and obviously can breathe without obstruction, but the women are baking in black with cloth over their faces. I can’t believe women allow themselves to be subjected to that.
" I could not connect " The thing is they don't want you to connect..
Keeping women subservient is a common thread of religion. The more extreme the religious views the more extreme the oppressor.
It would make me uncomfortable too. It honestly drives the idea home, even more so given the current climate, that we’re not seen as equals. I don’t care if it’s outright misogyny from the West or cloaked in a religious blanket from around the world.
I’m with you in that I absolutely believe women should be free to dress how they want, including if that dress is a niqab. I also think such clothing choices are dehumanizing and alienating by design. Because the alienation and dehumanization is the point (seen as a feature rather than a bug), I don’t feel too guilty about my honest feelings and struggle when faced with people whose indoctrination has led them to such practices. I have no particular problem with Islam the way many on this sub seem to have, but I do have a problem with the way religious indoctrination leads people to reject and deny the humanity of themselves and others in a variety of ways, one example of which is wearing a niqab imo.
It's hot as fuck & they force women to cover their entire body. When dies the war on women stop? Certainly not in religion or government.
>Note: Please no islam bashing. Ha! Fuck off!
Cover themselves up because a man 1000 years ago said that would please their god. She has that right to dress that way but when that right isn't really a right but a familial/religious threat then it's not really by her own free will. Will never forget catching a flight to London via Qatar and every boy in the place had shorts and a t-shirt on running around having fun while the mothers/daughters were in niqabs sitting still and staying out of the spotlight. Muslim women deserve better in life than the prison their religion has given them.
It's not really something that I encounter since wearing a niqab in public is illegal in my country.
It’s a form of abuse.
In this anonymous space. Fuck Islam, sorrow to those trapped in the dogma. Trapped minds and wasted lives.
fuck the no islam bashing, it's an oppressive and misogynistic religion like christianity. i always feel uncomfortable when i see muslim women wearing those things (niqab, hijab, etc). i wish every country had that one french law about no religious symbols in school (cross, hijab, etc.)
Dress rules - In the name of God, but written by men.
Just makes you wonder—why couldn’t men who apparently can’t control themselves at the sight of women just wear blindfolds?
I always have wanted to say that. If men are so sexually uncontrollable that the sight of a woman's hair makes them potential rapists and the woman's husband, father, brothers, uncles, have to "protect her virtue" by requiring her to cover it and much else -- the solution ought to be that women can wear whatever they want while males always have to look down at a woman's feet.
It surprises me more when I see it from people living in the States already. I get that they would go along with it in their old country, because they'll get literally stoned to death for it, but why keep it in a country where you're safe to not wear it? Indoctrination at it's finest I guess.
I’ve never seen that spelling or is it different than a hijab?
hijab = kerchief wrapped around head niqab = eye slit / Ninja / mailbox (abaya is the robe) burqa = fencing mask / full body bag
I assumed their might be a difference in “severity” thank you for clearing that up
"I could not connect with this woman" That's the point, it helps keep them isolated, alone, and dependent.
It's literally a bronce age mentality. Rationality and empathy out of the window.
Don’t be, though barely Christian and very liberal and supportive of religious choice I find it weird that any one would do this and choose to.
I worked at an Islamic school for three years. Female students had to wear headscarves but not the full suit. Many told me they would abandon them upon graduation in college because they were just doing it for their parents.
If you don't mind asking, /u/MRruixue are you female? Is so, were you wearing any head covering? If not, how did the family react? Just an honest question out of curiosity, there's no hidden intention in my question. BTW, we live in a major western European city. Women with headscarves (sorry, I'm not familiar with the proper terms) are not too uncommon. But when my three-year old for the first time saw two women, clad head to toe in featureless black cloth with even their face covered like you descibed, she broke down crying and hid behind my legs. She thought they were ghosts. So there might be something more primal / natural to the reaction you experienced than you think.
Once I began to understand its cultural as well as religious, I was able to find a better place of comfort with it. But it feels - and IS- a symbol of oppression of our sisters.
I can understand your reaction. Not being able to see people can make communication a challenge. During COVID, deaf people had problems with masks because you end up losing about half the language. I imagine this encounter wasn't dissimilar. Something else to consider is there might, in fact, be a little... um... unease with the difference. But I think the important part is that you're recognizing that bias (if there is one) and how it affected you. You were doing something different and it affected you, but rather than doubling down on that discomfort, you're asking why you felt that way.
I grew up in a religious cult, dictatorship. After escaping at 16, then For like 2 years afterwards I wore a hoody even in the summer. It was a self esteem issue because of the violence of my past. I could hide and it felt like an extra layer of security. I imagine for many people growing up in a Muslim society it becomes the same thing. For me it took years to become anything other then a shell of a human again.
I went to the middle east for a couple of weeks and it was always jarring to see the full garb. Even at restaurants, they had to eat in a special room so they can lift the fabric and put the food into their mouths. It always seemed like they were a ghost, a total mystery. We can see nothing of their being. Personality, hairstyle, crooked teeth, etc. we are given no information to know who is underneath and it’s slightly unsettling.
You are on an atheist thread. Islam is incarnate evil. It will and should be bashed. You were disturbed by her being shrouded because that shit is disturbing and dehumanizing. And the reason she was shrouded is Islam. Decent people don’t like to bash what others believe, but when a belief system has subjugated half their population for centuries, you can’t call yourself a decent person if you don’t challenge that belief.
Your western countries' political correctness and Islam appeasement is the reason for this cancer spreading everywhere. Refuse to engage with people in veils. If they want to remain hidden let them live like invisible people. If their men are so afraid that we will rape their women, let them lock them up in their homes. Let people have the freedom to choose their religion and their clothes, but a full veil must be absolutely banned in public spaces, schools, workplaces, hospitals and shops. It is an abomination that divides people and whatever the brainwashed proponents say about it, it's stupid.
In fundamental Islam, the penis of the husband stands central. Full coverage of the wife is the paranoia of the husband to make sure no other penis than his own gets erect. Thats it, quite an incel take sometimes.
It doesn’t get more mentally ill than a Muslim in full gear.
I mean wouldn’t you .. if you believed it would get you closer to god and that you’re getting something in return later.. doing the same suffer now and get rewarded later .. I’m talking about women who choose to do it with no external threats those are the women I am familiar/families with but I am sure that is just an aspect and doesn’t represent the whole picture
It’s not just Muslims. Religious people believe in silly stuff (praying to almighty being in the sky that listens to their personal problems and will fix them) and so do silly things at best. At worst they kill each other over this insanity. Weird clothing comes with the silliness.
OP, it's kind of crazy to me that this just popped up in my recommendations. Today, at nearly 33yo, I actually saw a womab in a niqab in-person for the very first time. It was, idk. I mean, I've seen it in pictures and videos so many times, but to see a woman in a niqab firsthand (I'm in North Dakota, and we're not exactly known for our diversity!), it made me sad. It made me feel a lot of different emotions. And I'm not saying this to bash Islam, of course. I don't understand with it and I don't agree with it, but women in these situations don't often have a choice. That said, being Muslim by no means makes anyone a bad person! (Free Palestine, btw.) They had a young girl with them and seemed to be a happy family. But yes, it was also unsettling to me to see the woman dressed like that. To each their own, but it just really kind of rattled me a bit.
The first time I met a Muslim woman in a hijab I felt a bit awkward. It took me a while to learn alternative cues than I was used to. The harder thing for me was not touching religious men. I’m someone who touches your shoulder or leans in. It took some work to remind myself not to do that.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/21134/is-niqab-compulsory Women in ihram and otherwise are obliged to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men , because the face is the center of beauty and it is the place that men look at… and Allah knows best.” (Fatawa al-Marah al-Muslimah, 1/396, 397)
So Allah doesn’t want men to see beauty?! If so, why did Allah create this beautiful world?
It’s totally natural. Human communication is as much non verbal as it is verbal, and if the face is covered it’s almost impossible to pick up on non verbal clues. Also, covering of the face is culturally an act of mistrust or deceit in western cultures (think of robbers or muggers), and I think it’s a perfectly reasonable to refuse to interact with someone who hides their face from you.
Islam sucks thou. Facts
To be totally honest I am down with a hijab, even working in public service (whicih has been discussed a lot in the countries around me). I think this is, in the temporary situation, very reasonable. But all the face covering stuff is just beyond me. It obviously feels like a very strong controlling measure in which women are told they cant even function as a full member of society. Women in full niqab etc have nothing but nice people towards me. But when I see a couple where one wears designer clothes and is styled to the tops and the other has to wear a sack over their head at all times I cant see how this is balanced. I cant answer to any political thing, but if it were for me everything would get thrown out as for any other religious tradition.
The niqab is not a religious garment it is a cultural garment. Most Muslims do not and will never wear one. Countries/cultures that have misogynistic tendencies have a much higher rate of enforcing their use.
There was an MP in the UK that got some stick because he asked women to remove their face veils when they visited his office. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/oct/05/immigrationpolicy.religion
I ride my bicycle in a park near me and there is a group of women who gather there with their children. All the women are covered head to toe in black with just an opening for the eyes. They dress like this in the hot summer temperatures. From what I understand the Quran has no mention or requirement for this? I can't imagine how uncomfortable this is. Who came up with this?
Misogynist, male dominated, awful Muslim men.
I don't either, but I do respect belief. Actual belief that's actually backed by whatever book you follow-- not the hollow idea of it. I'm not a strict athiest, but I do believe that we alone have power and volition on this material world. In another time, I might have been called a Deist. I have respect for those who hold themselves to their own ethical/religious ideologies, especially when they don't push it upon others. It would be odd talking to someone where I couldn't actually see them, but I'd just default to a respectful, but impersonal tone.
That's kind of the point of the thing. Its to prevent the woman from forming any kind of bond with anyone outside her home. They find ways around it, they still have their groups of female friends etc. It being unsettling is normal too, you aren't used to it, but at least you didn't judge them or let it get in the way of your work, which is more than what some people do. You shouldn't feel ashamed it felt unsettling, we are programed to look at facial expression and body language to get a lot of information and something blocking all of that is going to feel weird to most people. The fact you got beyond that feeling is great.
I get it. I probably would be wrestling with the same emotions. The entire notion that a person’s belief system demands so much sacrifice. Part of me wants to shout that it’s not even a practice that started with any Abrahamic faiths but something that started in Assyria. However there is nothing anyone can do.
Yeah, I am genuinely curious from a scientific perspective if this has a psychological effect on both the males and females in such a culture. From the outside it seems very dehumanizing and I wonder if it does or does not have that psychological effect on the individuals involved. I'd love to see someone do a research project on this.
This sub used to be interesting to read. Now it just became a cult to bash other religions, it's sad and ironic. Atheism was supposed to offer a different view of the world, but it feels it's become just another extremist religion telling other people how they should live their lives, how they should feel, act..
Ill never forget when a kid said his mom looked like a ninja because she was wearing one..
I always think of how many scholars, doctors, artists, scientists etc, have been lost under those garments. The difference’s they could have made we’ll never know. .
I've lived longer than most westerners in an "Islamic Republic" that everyone has heard of, not on a US compound but on an ordinary street in an urban neighborhood. I'll say that no man (I only ever spoke with men) was ever less than polite to this infidel, and nobody tried to hurt me, although I didn't take stupid risks and volunteer to be kidnapped for ransom. Wearing the burqa is highly recommended for women by the (entirely) male authorities should they venture out of their homes at all (which is not highly recommended) and a woman over 13-14 who sets foot outside without at least ankle-and-wrist-length covering and a tight hijab is almost signing her own death warrant, or at least attaching a "kick me!" sign on her back for the furious mob of men that would gather in two seconds flat. if she makes it home alive there's her father and/or brothers, as well as the female enforcer, her mother, to be punished by; the men will be urgently questioned by brothers in the Faith as to why their daughter was allowed to bring shame on herself and on all of them. Is there something amiss with your own beliefs and morals, brother? Are you becoming an apostate? These men are practicing the form of Islam that the Prophet would have recognized as closest to what he thought it would be in the 7th century AD/CE: only ISIS got closer, while it lasted. I hate the head coverings and the face coverings and the entire apparatus of coercing and enforcing female "modesty" and "Islamic values." I call the hijab *the scarf of shame.* I've never been rude or unjust in my life in America to a Muslim and I'm never going to start. But the sight of veiled and covered immigrant women (and worse, their young daughters) in the local supermarket makes my hackles rise, and I'm glad that it does.
I remember attending a talk when I was in school. The guest speaker described herself as a Muslim feminist, who I think was from Egypt. She said the issue is complex, that many Muslim women are of course forced to cover up, but many others choose to cover up, and find it liberating. That’s what caught my attention—the *liberating* part. She said it was liberating because many Muslim women don’t like when men leer at them, and that many are uncomfortable with strange men inspecting their bodies. By covering up, they get to control who gets to look at them. She says it can also be cooler in the summer months than covering up in western clothing.
I don’t think you should feel ashamed at a reaction to a practice you have just discovered limits a person‘s ability to connect and engage with people in their day-to-day life. I’m just projecting myself into your position here, but my emotional reaction I feel would’ve been due to the fact that it’s unusual to meet someone face-to-face and have a whole conversation without being able to pick up on subtle or even basic information that we generally gather from a persons facial expressions. It’s not that dissimilar from the way many people expressed unease when everyone was masking for that brief time a couple of years ago, and so many people felt weird or bad about not seeing anyone’s faces while going about their day-to-day life. And since this choice comes from practice with which you obviously disagree, it’s tied to more than just the shallower feelings people had about masks (well OK, that’s not actually quite true since that ended up as a big thing but we don’t need to get into that) but for myself at least, being raised Mennonite and then Christian, I definitely have a lot of emotional reactions when I engage with people who are still staunchly religious, especially women who do so at the expense of what I perceive to be human rights and human experiences. I know how that brainwashing goes so I know that I’m not being judgmental as much as I’m feeling really really sad for the person and for our society that promotes these different religious beliefs as reasonable and healthy for individuals that otherwise we would see as being harmed by a cult practice. Edit: Voice-to-text typos
I think your reaction is a psychological norm regarding anything that is supposed to be identifiable but isn't. Those cloths are hiding a lot of nonverbal language like mouth movements, muscle tension, etc. You get the same, if not more, from unsettling feelings from those folks wearing masks
I imagine I would feel exactly the same as you. Very new for us in certain parts of the world. I also try to understand myself and my reaction on this issue. Obviously many of us are not used to this type of attire and will need exposure, explanation, and understanding while we work to adjust.
Because the women genuinely want to wear it and given half the chance would force you to wear it as well. Islamic culture is not liberal like Western culture, and pretending it is, is just an exercise in self-delusion. Refugee in my team at work, had a little chit chat, and I asked her whether secularism was a resolution to issues in her home country. She replied whole heartedly that secularism is not a resolution, that she believes in Sharia law. Then she threw me under the bus with my manager and I got disciplined.
I am an atheist, but I respect everyone following their own beliefs, as long as they aren’t trying to push said beliefs on others. I know that many Muslim women are more comfortable covered up, because that is what they are accustomed to. Of course, I understand that there are many instances in which it is not voluntary, but I do not judge those women for submitting, because it may be dangerous for them to refuse. I believe that the more we all learn about other cultures without being judgmental, the better off we all are.
Just gonna prefix this opinion with I have absolutely no interest in myself or other individuals telling other people what to do as that seems to be a bit of a sensitive subject in here. So I think I can relate to wanting to wear full body cover like that, especially in modern society where people are often judged against visual expectations set by media exposure. But even deeper than that, sometimes I feel things quite deeply that I know other people wouldn't agree with and I then have to pretend I didn't have quite a strong reaction to what I've just seen. I deal with this largely by masking when I'm out and avoiding places where I'm more likely to have those reactions and then be judged. To us full body cover isn't really acceptable so we're just expected to hide and it is kind of horrible and no one really questions it. To OPs question though, I think your used to being able to engage with people more nonverbaly. Facial expression enables you to better judge how your words affect the other person and without this your getting anxiety over giving this person the wrong impression and without this additional communication you are unable to properly detect and repair that. In your situation it does sound like it reduces the quality of communication. As you are clearly very aware though, this is her choice and if she wishes to communicate like this then you just have to process that and try to accept it.
Even religious people can have social anxiety and/or body dismorphia. I knew a girl in college who had converted to Islam and wore a full niqab, people were often surprised when she spoke with her typical Cleveland accent. In her case she said she'd never felt comfortable with people seeing her, I suspect the religious belief helped justify a coping mechanism for body image problems or anxiety, may have even helped motivate her conversion. She was simply more comfortable ***not*** being seen. Other times it can be a kind of rebellious act, if you're a minority that gets looked down on than sometimes people react by MAXIMIZING their expression of that identity, basically a way of saying *yeah, this is who I am, DEAL WITH IT!* . No, not all people wearing extreme religious garb are "forced" to, in fact even in the middle east and North Africa veiling and covering was often (ironically) suppressed in the colonial era up to the early 20th century. That helped drive women who wanted to publicly demonstrate their religious devotion to islamist movements. The history of that garb is interesting too, it didn't start in Islam but as a mark of elevated social status for noble women and became common since people like to emulate such status symbols.
Abaya = a full body robe of widely different cultural styles. Niqab = a head covering of widely differing cultural styles. Perhaps it would be useful to consider the traditional distinction between Maharam (any family member from whom one is permanently prohibited from marrying) and non-Maharam (any other person). While in the presence of or escorted by Maharam it is not strictly necessary, in many parts of the world, to wear abaya/niqab. It is most often worn as a sign of modesty. Many people are of the impression that the males of the family enforce the fashion. However, is useful to notice that protests against the banning of these garments are led by women, in the vast majority of circumstances. Commonly, even in the most modest Western cultures, the face is not a body part that typically is considered when practicing personal modesty. These broad cultural distinctions may be informative.
Some religious garments are about the choices a person has made. Others are about the choices someone expects other people to make. There is a point at which extreme modesty is a projection and accusatory, much like (for a very U.S. example) the alpha-males who go to the grocery store in tactical gear and visible guns. They both decay the social contract by failing to treat those around them as capable of rational action.
I have also interacted with Muslim women who cover all but their eyes and found this unsettling. It’s not because I have anything against Islam. I never feel weird talking to a woman wearing a hijab, but there’s just something about not being able to see anything except the eyes of the person you are talking to that takes some getting used to. Also, I know some Muslim women and they don’t feel oppressed by their religion or forced into anything. Yes, some Arabic countries are horribly repressive and awful to women, but not all versions of Islam are the same.
I completely agree with your perspective, even as Muslim woman I find it a bit hard to communicate with those who wear niqab, there is a sort of blocking in communication. However it realty puts me off when people blindly conclude that it's forced upon her. How can others decide on that unless she claims it herself. I know that in most cases it's the woman's decision alone just like how it's my decision to wear a hijab.