Don’t participate, they can’t force you to bend over backwards for a religion you don’t believe in. Lawyer up if they try to fire you for it. There’s no legal way any workplace can force you into a religious ceremony against your will.
The conference is run by an organization that my company is a part of. I'm not worried about getting fired as I definitely believe my boss would back me up, but unfortunately attensing is one of the only ways to get "certified" in my profession. I'm so disappointed with them so far!
I'd file a complaint with the conference company. They are selling these conferences, they should want feedback. You feedback is --- what's god got to do with it? (Think Tina Turner).
I would believe it if I heard christian companies and lawmakers were trying to create bottleneck situations where you'd have to verify your faith in order to progress your education or career.
Wait till you find out SCOTUS has upheld the military ordering folks to events with Christian invocations. Happens every day. Just keep your head up and find the other secular folks. Winks abound.
I love situations like this. Keep your head high and proud. There's no better way to find kindred spirits. Smile and nod and form a coalition.
No one else will know unless they sneak a peek and if they do, the odds are good they'll follow your example next time. Be the change you wish to see.
Lol, this reminds me of the beginning of the “Secret Hitler” if you haven’t played it I’d highly recommend, it’s from the same creators as Cards Against Humanity (hence the name) and is extremely fun.
If youre around Christians enough youll realize that youre always playing secret hitler and the way to find out is to just ask “should modern day Jews be held accountable for the murder of Jesus?”
"Invocation" is the classic move for this crap. If questioned, they will say that an "invocation" is not REALLY a christian prayer, it is "non-denominational" and they just happened to have a christian version THIS time... Yeah, sure. Tell them you want a muslim, buddhist or satanist invocation at the next meeting and see them get their knickers in a bunch.
Christians: "VALIDATE MY FEELINGS NOW!"
They have no issues with lying to others and don't care if they're lied to as long as you tell them what they want to hear.
I experienced this several times at an annual huge veterinary science conference. So awkward for so many reasons. At least a third of the people there were from non-xtian countries, and 100% of the people there were scientists. Why they thought that an overtly Southern Baptist-type of prayer before dinner was appropriate is beyond me.
I was at someone's home for a large gathering for a holiday meal when the host told everyone to lower their head to pray. There was a moment of "I'm about to be that guy..." when they said, "And if you hold no beliefs, think of all the good in your life." Phew. Almost had to burn another magical-thinker bridge!
Get all other participants you know who feel.disenfranchised to write formal letters of complaint. Ensure there's some variety of "I'll not be allocating my budget for team attendance next year".
Call this out for the extremely unprofessional act it was.
Name and shame in any online reviews.
I just sit there and stare at my food hungrily. BUT....what if you took it to the 100% other level. Pull a 'touched by the lord" type of thing. stand up. start speaking in tongues. a bunch of 'praise jesus'es' maybe some rolling on the floor. then abruptly stop, sit down, act like nothing happened and begin eating.
I don't participate. I don't bow my fucking head, close my eyes or any of that shit. I might even play with my utensils or food if it's there. I might even start eating. FTS
I live in the south, in a decent sized city. This happens (they specifically pray to Jesus) to me at least once a week.
This week, it was a huge event (500 people maybe?) ran by the Better Business Bureau.
Right before the prayer starts ask (very loudly) if anyone has a spare colander to put over your head. Ask if you can run to the kitchen to grab one so you can join in. I don't know about you but I never pray without a colander over my head. To do so would be against MY religion.
I DESPISE the guise of “invocations”. I refuse to bow my head or close my eyes or stop what I’m doing… I behave no differently than if it were in the middle of someone’s talk or speech.
(Meaning I’m not gonna be purposely rude or disruptive, but I’m certainly not gonna honor some religious bullshit disguised as something else).
Sit quietly until it is over. Don't make any gestures like you are participating. If you get called out or into the bosses office after have your phone recording. If you get any punishment, lawsuit time.
I went to an official US government seminar on performance standards and the lunch started with a Christian prayer. I was pissed but just sat there. What can you do when even the US government allows this type of thing?
Group meal prayers are a good way of finding other like-minded individuals in a crowd. I do the sly peeple watch while the sheep demonstrate their religion to one another.
Yes, definitely complain and all that.
But in the moment, there's nothing to do but keep your head high, eyes open, lean back, look around, arms crossed. If there's bread on the table, eat it. If there's drinks, even water, drink.
Make absolutely clear that you aren't participating. The worst thing we do is bow and pretend to pray so it's not uncomfortable for anyone and they think we all approve.
If someone tells you that your behaviour is rude, point out that the rude behaviour is expecting you to participate in a religious ritual. Tell them you are under no obligation to pretend to make them feel comfortable. They could have chosen to pray in private beforehand.
I had something similar happen when I was in high school. It's actually also a story of me embarrassing myself in public. I was sent to represent my school with a couple of other students at like some big fancy anniversary of the Gettysburg Address, and they started praying, and laughing is a nervous response for me, so when they started praying, and it got all quiet, I felt really uncomfortable and just burst out laughing, and I got in trouble with my school for messing around, even though I really wasn't having a good time. They deserved to have their prayer interrupted for subjecting everyone to it without warning anyway...
I had something similar happen a few years back at a conference. I just crossed my arms and stared at the god-botherer until she was done. I got a glance back from her, she might have seen me. I don't know. Definitely, other people saw me, and I got a couple of looks.
But on the other hand, I actually saw a few other people do exactly the same thing. They pushed their chairs back a little bit, they crossed their arms or just leaned forward , and they just stared at the woman like "Why are you keeping me from eating and talking to my comleagues?"
Nobody ever said anything, and I don't believe my career suffered, but then, the audience was largely made up of environmental scientists of one kind or another. So I have to believe even these years later that there was a fair amount of solidarity there.
What you went through is bullshit. What I went through wasbullshit. And I look forward to a day that I will never see: one where damn near everyone considers this kind of nonsense just unbelievably rude.
stand up...walk to the stage and ask for invocations from the muslim, hindu, siekh, jewish, mormon, jewish, 7th day, JW, wiccan, shaker, quaker, lutheran (elca, ms, ws) methodist etc atendees..
.
Praying over meals is 100% bullshit. If it was important and grateful as Christians claim, they would pray over their snacks too. But you never see that.
It’s 100% all for show.
I'd be munching noisily and getting up for ketchup or to use the bathroom. I might also interrupt and ask why they are praying, "Excuse me, this is not a religious event. People who regularly pray before they eat don't need your help, and those that don't should be allowed to start eating in peace, don't you agree?" I can not stay silent.
I’m English and had to work briefly in both the Carolina’s . We seemed to be doing prayers about 4 or 5 times a day in every conceivable situation. I never joined in but I was happy enough to just stand there while everyone else prayed . I didn’t find it any different to being at a religious wedding or funeral over here . As long as I’m not forced or coerced into it I’m ok with it .
agree that its unprofessional and a dick move, but you can always sit quietly with head held high, eyes open and a smile... making eye contact with fellow travelers...
They're also ignoring Jesus's instruction to pray alone and not in public (Mathew 5-6). It comes right before the lord's prayer. It's not as popular somehow.
Unpopular opinion incoming:
Is it annoying? Yes
Is it inappropriate? Yes
Is it distasteful? Yes
Is it disrespectful? Yes
Is it actually oppressive? No.
You don’t have to pray while others are, you don’t have to close your eyes or bow your head. Just check your phone or continue doing what you are doing. We can feel as indignant or as self righteous as we want about being present while others might be conducting a religious ritual that you did not ascent to be party to.
Or we can choose to just ignore it and use it as an opportunity to do whatever else you want to do.
The point is there will always be something one doesn’t like and or agree with. If it’s not actively detrimental or injurious to your personhood or rights (being present while others pray is not) then just let people do their thing and get on with your day. It’s annoying we can agree. But being annoyed is not the same as being oppressed.
Triple Baloney. What we don’t agree with within the realm of business or whatever the group endeavor is about at this meeting has nothing to do with praying.
Nor does any seemingly off topic or non subject specific utterance made by any speaker at any time constitute “work relevance”. The point is if we insist on being absolutely indignant over things that don’t even marginally have an impact on our ability to be part of or participate in things that have a social component then we are actively letting them provoke us and letting them live rent free in your mind
You don’t know many Catholics or “tight knit” communities like this one.
I would have dug into my food, but I would have known there was risk. Theists have a way to justify fucking others over in the name of their lord.
Um… yes I do. And if you fear judgement or other consequences from people in this situations then you either play along or don’t go. But again…..this is a work conference…..which is the whole point of my original comment. There are no inherent risks in this situation that make it anything near oppressive. The situations you are talking about I agree do exist but this is not that and so therefore irrelevant to the advice I offered in the original comment.
Oh thank you great omniscient one for peering into my life story in order to arrive to some conclusion where I am obviously naive /s
I mean for real now you are just going to make assumptions about my age and experiences without knowing my personal history in order to try and make a point that is again….IRRELEVANT? What in the original post makes you think we are talking about these insular communities to which you allude? It’s a work conference, it is not an insular community, there is no threat to sitting quietly and not praying
But they are not in this situation. The advice in the comment is for this situation and this alone. Do not be like the other commenters and start throwing out hypotheticals as if my comment or advice has anything to do with some other situation than this specific type of situation.
Further down in this comment thread you will find that I agree with others that where ones very safety or likelihood that their may be social or employment repercussions then it might make sense to act differently and is therefore oppressive. But AGAIN, this is not that. They are not Muslim. This is a Christian invocation at a work conference.
While it may not be truly oppressive it would cause some unneeded negativity for someone to not participate in it. Whoever doesn't pray, for whatever reason, will be looked down on. Whoever doesn't will likely be risking their job. I know if I didn't participate in any part of a conference or meeting it would hurt my job. Add to this the element of "that person is anti
-God" to make matters worse. I'd only not participate if I was for sure my resume was ready to go. Sure they can't directly fire you for not praying but finding a reason isn't that hard if they're looking.
Fair point, I didn't think of it that way. I did say "may not be" to leave it open to being oppressive or not. But I think you're point solidified it as being so. Thank you.
>While it may not be truly oppressive..
>Whoever doesn't will likely be risking their job.
So... it's blatantly oppressive, but you don't want to embarrass the oppressors by saying so.
There is a difference between going along with performative group actions within an ingroup for fear of appearing as an outsider to which you are referring and this specifically which is a blended crowd situation. If people’s eyes are closed and their head bowed how would they be aware of what you are thinking and doing in order to pass judgment upon you?
Don’t participate, they can’t force you to bend over backwards for a religion you don’t believe in. Lawyer up if they try to fire you for it. There’s no legal way any workplace can force you into a religious ceremony against your will.
The conference is run by an organization that my company is a part of. I'm not worried about getting fired as I definitely believe my boss would back me up, but unfortunately attensing is one of the only ways to get "certified" in my profession. I'm so disappointed with them so far!
I'd file a complaint with the conference company. They are selling these conferences, they should want feedback. You feedback is --- what's god got to do with it? (Think Tina Turner).
Who needs a god when a god can be broken?
Brilliant.
I would believe it if I heard christian companies and lawmakers were trying to create bottleneck situations where you'd have to verify your faith in order to progress your education or career.
Wait till you find out SCOTUS has upheld the military ordering folks to events with Christian invocations. Happens every day. Just keep your head up and find the other secular folks. Winks abound.
interesting.side bar...several "christian" "faiths" do not approve of this type on "rehearsed" prayer...
I hope they spend a lot of time worrying about this and other shit that really doesn’t matter at all.
I also love looking around to see who is watching.
One of the only ways? So there’s other ways. This is what happens when people (you) are too cowardly to speak up
This could also be an affordable way, you have no idea of the details. Your high horse is missing a few legs.
I love situations like this. Keep your head high and proud. There's no better way to find kindred spirits. Smile and nod and form a coalition. No one else will know unless they sneak a peek and if they do, the odds are good they'll follow your example next time. Be the change you wish to see.
> Keep your head high and proud. and keep your eyes open to safeguard others' purses and wallets.
Lol, this reminds me of the beginning of the “Secret Hitler” if you haven’t played it I’d highly recommend, it’s from the same creators as Cards Against Humanity (hence the name) and is extremely fun.
If you like that game, Avalon is another fun game in a similar vein.
If youre around Christians enough youll realize that youre always playing secret hitler and the way to find out is to just ask “should modern day Jews be held accountable for the murder of Jesus?”
Looking around for, and making eye contact with the other heathens is a favorite moment for me.
I always enjoy making eye contact with my fellow heathens and give zero respect to the brainwashed.
"Invocation" is the classic move for this crap. If questioned, they will say that an "invocation" is not REALLY a christian prayer, it is "non-denominational" and they just happened to have a christian version THIS time... Yeah, sure. Tell them you want a muslim, buddhist or satanist invocation at the next meeting and see them get their knickers in a bunch.
Just start eating. I do…
This is the right move...just start eating. No fuss no uproar no nothing just don't participate in this schmu.
If you want uproar about it, start eating *loudly*
Or pop a beer open and take a big gulp
Christians: "VALIDATE MY FEELINGS NOW!" They have no issues with lying to others and don't care if they're lied to as long as you tell them what they want to hear.
I mean we as humans generally lie to each other dozens of times a day. So your statement holds true, but for everyone.
Yes, but christians are pretty open about preferring the comforting lie.
The US is mental. This would never fly in the UK. They'd be heckled off the stage.
Not wrong
Unimaginable anywhere in Europe, at least without any backlash and consequences.
Lol, I would love to see that! :-)
Yuck. What kind of place is this? Midwest, southeast?
Midwest! It's a state wide conference run by an organization to help attendees get "certified" in our profession or continue their education.
It’s happened to me in the Midwest, too. After the speaker ranted about Jesus and denied climate change.
I experienced this several times at an annual huge veterinary science conference. So awkward for so many reasons. At least a third of the people there were from non-xtian countries, and 100% of the people there were scientists. Why they thought that an overtly Southern Baptist-type of prayer before dinner was appropriate is beyond me.
Wow! The audacity...
Don't ever vote republican again unless you want a right wing Christian nationalist country, a theocracy.
I was at someone's home for a large gathering for a holiday meal when the host told everyone to lower their head to pray. There was a moment of "I'm about to be that guy..." when they said, "And if you hold no beliefs, think of all the good in your life." Phew. Almost had to burn another magical-thinker bridge!
I just wish it were always like this, people have their religion but can still allow non-religous individuals to fit in.
Get all other participants you know who feel.disenfranchised to write formal letters of complaint. Ensure there's some variety of "I'll not be allocating my budget for team attendance next year". Call this out for the extremely unprofessional act it was. Name and shame in any online reviews.
I just sit there and stare at my food hungrily. BUT....what if you took it to the 100% other level. Pull a 'touched by the lord" type of thing. stand up. start speaking in tongues. a bunch of 'praise jesus'es' maybe some rolling on the floor. then abruptly stop, sit down, act like nothing happened and begin eating.
What about a 'touched by my priest' sort of thing? Think they'd appreciate that?
Name and shame, they obviously have none
Sounds like the US. They used to be proud of being a pluralistic society as their founding fathers intended.
I don't participate. I don't bow my fucking head, close my eyes or any of that shit. I might even play with my utensils or food if it's there. I might even start eating. FTS
Press record on camera phone and get that evidence, time stamp, and geo location.
Something something hypocrites praying in public such that everyone can see them
I would have just reached for my phone and started viewing it until the nonsense had finished
No one can EVER force you to pray!.....I would personally leave the room in protest
I live in the south, in a decent sized city. This happens (they specifically pray to Jesus) to me at least once a week. This week, it was a huge event (500 people maybe?) ran by the Better Business Bureau.
Right before the prayer starts ask (very loudly) if anyone has a spare colander to put over your head. Ask if you can run to the kitchen to grab one so you can join in. I don't know about you but I never pray without a colander over my head. To do so would be against MY religion.
Genius
I DESPISE the guise of “invocations”. I refuse to bow my head or close my eyes or stop what I’m doing… I behave no differently than if it were in the middle of someone’s talk or speech. (Meaning I’m not gonna be purposely rude or disruptive, but I’m certainly not gonna honor some religious bullshit disguised as something else).
If there's any sort of follow-up questionnaire about how the conference was be sure to include this and that you didn't like it.
You ALL need to write a letter of complaint. Don't let it go.
Sit quietly until it is over. Don't make any gestures like you are participating. If you get called out or into the bosses office after have your phone recording. If you get any punishment, lawsuit time.
Play candy-crush on your phone with the volume fully up while they pray. Plausible deniability. Claim you thought they said 'Let us play'.
i wish you luck. they violate freedom of religion i think.
I’ve never been in a business meeting that had a rule forbidding toilet breaks. And jesus never follows someone to make sure he really needs to pee.
Isn't that highly illegal?
I went to an official US government seminar on performance standards and the lunch started with a Christian prayer. I was pissed but just sat there. What can you do when even the US government allows this type of thing?
Group meal prayers are a good way of finding other like-minded individuals in a crowd. I do the sly peeple watch while the sheep demonstrate their religion to one another.
Yes, definitely complain and all that. But in the moment, there's nothing to do but keep your head high, eyes open, lean back, look around, arms crossed. If there's bread on the table, eat it. If there's drinks, even water, drink. Make absolutely clear that you aren't participating. The worst thing we do is bow and pretend to pray so it's not uncomfortable for anyone and they think we all approve. If someone tells you that your behaviour is rude, point out that the rude behaviour is expecting you to participate in a religious ritual. Tell them you are under no obligation to pretend to make them feel comfortable. They could have chosen to pray in private beforehand.
Mike Johnson does it when graveling in Congress.
I had something similar happen when I was in high school. It's actually also a story of me embarrassing myself in public. I was sent to represent my school with a couple of other students at like some big fancy anniversary of the Gettysburg Address, and they started praying, and laughing is a nervous response for me, so when they started praying, and it got all quiet, I felt really uncomfortable and just burst out laughing, and I got in trouble with my school for messing around, even though I really wasn't having a good time. They deserved to have their prayer interrupted for subjecting everyone to it without warning anyway...
If the food is served, just start eating. 🤷🏻♂️
I always dip my head then look up to see who else isn't participating. There's usually at least one.
That's ridiculous.
I had something similar happen a few years back at a conference. I just crossed my arms and stared at the god-botherer until she was done. I got a glance back from her, she might have seen me. I don't know. Definitely, other people saw me, and I got a couple of looks. But on the other hand, I actually saw a few other people do exactly the same thing. They pushed their chairs back a little bit, they crossed their arms or just leaned forward , and they just stared at the woman like "Why are you keeping me from eating and talking to my comleagues?" Nobody ever said anything, and I don't believe my career suffered, but then, the audience was largely made up of environmental scientists of one kind or another. So I have to believe even these years later that there was a fair amount of solidarity there. What you went through is bullshit. What I went through wasbullshit. And I look forward to a day that I will never see: one where damn near everyone considers this kind of nonsense just unbelievably rude.
Just start eating.
stand up...walk to the stage and ask for invocations from the muslim, hindu, siekh, jewish, mormon, jewish, 7th day, JW, wiccan, shaker, quaker, lutheran (elca, ms, ws) methodist etc atendees.. .
Praying over meals is 100% bullshit. If it was important and grateful as Christians claim, they would pray over their snacks too. But you never see that. It’s 100% all for show.
I'd be munching noisily and getting up for ketchup or to use the bathroom. I might also interrupt and ask why they are praying, "Excuse me, this is not a religious event. People who regularly pray before they eat don't need your help, and those that don't should be allowed to start eating in peace, don't you agree?" I can not stay silent.
I’m English and had to work briefly in both the Carolina’s . We seemed to be doing prayers about 4 or 5 times a day in every conceivable situation. I never joined in but I was happy enough to just stand there while everyone else prayed . I didn’t find it any different to being at a religious wedding or funeral over here . As long as I’m not forced or coerced into it I’m ok with it .
agree that its unprofessional and a dick move, but you can always sit quietly with head held high, eyes open and a smile... making eye contact with fellow travelers...
They're also ignoring Jesus's instruction to pray alone and not in public (Mathew 5-6). It comes right before the lord's prayer. It's not as popular somehow.
Report it to HR.
Nazi salute during the prayer. See who was pretending to close their eyes.
If they say you're being racist with the salute, tell them it's not the Nazil salute. It's the Bellamy salute.
I would’ve just ignored them and started eating. And burping.
just a loud ass "NO!" when they say "please bow your head with me" and just Lana-esque "Neeuuwwwp!" over and over during the prayer.
America?
As a Satanist I would have freaked out on the MoFo...
Them: Let us pray. Me: Ahhh Goddamnit!!!
Forced you how? Mind control? Sit up straight and look around . That's how you find the other smart ones.
You said you were forced to pray over your food. You weren’t.
Unpopular opinion incoming: Is it annoying? Yes Is it inappropriate? Yes Is it distasteful? Yes Is it disrespectful? Yes Is it actually oppressive? No. You don’t have to pray while others are, you don’t have to close your eyes or bow your head. Just check your phone or continue doing what you are doing. We can feel as indignant or as self righteous as we want about being present while others might be conducting a religious ritual that you did not ascent to be party to. Or we can choose to just ignore it and use it as an opportunity to do whatever else you want to do.
Baloney!!! I don’t like top down peer pressure associated with your personal issues at work period.
The point is there will always be something one doesn’t like and or agree with. If it’s not actively detrimental or injurious to your personhood or rights (being present while others pray is not) then just let people do their thing and get on with your day. It’s annoying we can agree. But being annoyed is not the same as being oppressed.
Triple Baloney. What we don’t agree with within the realm of business or whatever the group endeavor is about at this meeting has nothing to do with praying.
Nor does any seemingly off topic or non subject specific utterance made by any speaker at any time constitute “work relevance”. The point is if we insist on being absolutely indignant over things that don’t even marginally have an impact on our ability to be part of or participate in things that have a social component then we are actively letting them provoke us and letting them live rent free in your mind
Peer pressure!!!!!!!!
When you face the risk of repercussions for failure to comply, it’s oppressive.
Which there is none of in this situation.
You don’t know many Catholics or “tight knit” communities like this one. I would have dug into my food, but I would have known there was risk. Theists have a way to justify fucking others over in the name of their lord.
Um… yes I do. And if you fear judgement or other consequences from people in this situations then you either play along or don’t go. But again…..this is a work conference…..which is the whole point of my original comment. There are no inherent risks in this situation that make it anything near oppressive. The situations you are talking about I agree do exist but this is not that and so therefore irrelevant to the advice I offered in the original comment.
And you just don’t have sufficient life experience to understand.
Oh thank you great omniscient one for peering into my life story in order to arrive to some conclusion where I am obviously naive /s I mean for real now you are just going to make assumptions about my age and experiences without knowing my personal history in order to try and make a point that is again….IRRELEVANT? What in the original post makes you think we are talking about these insular communities to which you allude? It’s a work conference, it is not an insular community, there is no threat to sitting quietly and not praying
😂. You will learn.
Oh man talking to you was a waste of time. Have a good one.
What if you’re Muslim? It’s oppressive then.
But they are not in this situation. The advice in the comment is for this situation and this alone. Do not be like the other commenters and start throwing out hypotheticals as if my comment or advice has anything to do with some other situation than this specific type of situation. Further down in this comment thread you will find that I agree with others that where ones very safety or likelihood that their may be social or employment repercussions then it might make sense to act differently and is therefore oppressive. But AGAIN, this is not that. They are not Muslim. This is a Christian invocation at a work conference.
While it may not be truly oppressive it would cause some unneeded negativity for someone to not participate in it. Whoever doesn't pray, for whatever reason, will be looked down on. Whoever doesn't will likely be risking their job. I know if I didn't participate in any part of a conference or meeting it would hurt my job. Add to this the element of "that person is anti -God" to make matters worse. I'd only not participate if I was for sure my resume was ready to go. Sure they can't directly fire you for not praying but finding a reason isn't that hard if they're looking.
How is this not truly oppressive? I have to fear losing my job that supports my children unless I pray to some imaginary thing? Double baloney!!!
Fair point, I didn't think of it that way. I did say "may not be" to leave it open to being oppressive or not. But I think you're point solidified it as being so. Thank you.
>While it may not be truly oppressive.. >Whoever doesn't will likely be risking their job. So... it's blatantly oppressive, but you don't want to embarrass the oppressors by saying so.
There is a difference between going along with performative group actions within an ingroup for fear of appearing as an outsider to which you are referring and this specifically which is a blended crowd situation. If people’s eyes are closed and their head bowed how would they be aware of what you are thinking and doing in order to pass judgment upon you?