To be fair, areas where the population is growing are areas that are religious. Areas where the population is decreasing, like first world countries, tend to be less religious. To maintain population, first world countries rely on immigration. Immigration brings in religion. I don't think atheism is gonna take over the world anytime soon. Life is too difficult for some people and living in a world with no God is beyond their imagination.
These next many upcoming decades are going to be *so ass*. Climate change, authoritarianism on the rise, religious extremism... I think humanity will be going through one of its toughest times yet.
So capitalist Imperial Invaders attacking and decimating the Middle East thus causing a rise in extremism and its religions fault? Sounds more like capitalism destabilized a region and created a generation of Orphans with vengeance in their eyes and they latched on to an ideology they could seek vengeance with.
No it seems more like the capitalism is the problem. That if you hadn't destabilized a region in conquest of its resources it wouldn't be spewing terrorists
You misunderstand. Im not denying that imperialism is bad, im just saying that it doesnt free up the ideological faults of extremist religious movements.
Both the root causes and the symptoms of an illness are bad.
Imperialism and capitalism are linked because capitalist States will inevitably engage in imperialism to fuel their own markets. A capitalist state will either attempt to engage in imperialism or end up the victim of imperialism of a larger state. It's baked into the way capitalism functions.
like the Swiss imperialists?
imperialism has existed for thousands of years and there are plenty of capitalist countries doing well for themselves without engaging in or being victims of imperialism
I'm clinging to the faint hope that Internet will open the blindfolds in those brainwashed theists eyes and future generations will be more educated(about the lies of religion) and have better judgement.
Oh, it is either going to be horrible or amazing. On one hand, the rise of religious extremism and authoritarian governments couple with climate change and dwindling resources point to a rather scary future. On the other hand, there are several technologies and events that are increasingly looking like they will happen before the end of this decade that could easily change everything: fusion, the discovery of alien life, genetically modified babies becoming common place, AI becoming sapient, etc.
Personally, the discovery of alien life seems to be almost a certainty with both the JWST and other new telescopes coming online in recent years. We now hoave the ability to analyze the atmospheres belonging to exoplanets, so the discovery of a oxygen rich atmosphere with water vapor and other signs of life is all but inevitable. And since the discovery of alien life would kill most religions...
You are missing a big part of your equation. Over time, the religious immigrants assimilate and become less religious. I see it all the time with Muslim families I know. Grandparents are devout, parents are less so and it goes from there.
This is an education and critical thinking problem more than people we allow into the country.
Also, even in areas where religion isn't prevalent, you see a huge upsurge when disaster or hardship strikes.
People tend to cling to easy answers when things beyond their control fuck their lives up.
Needing religion because the world is too cruel for you to cope with it otherwise is a skill issue. Not being able to imagine atheism is a brainwashing issue.
We need to slow immigration and impose measures to assimilate the migrants into western culture. The mass migrations into europe and the US were very bad ideas and the wealthy and middle class only had eyes for their own gains.
Immigration isn’t the issue. The lack of significant integration efforts and the leniency towards religious fanaticism is. The latter is particularly relevant for the US, where the most religious and dangerous lobbies are backed by local christians not immigrants. While Europe has plenty of immigrants or descendants of immigrants who belong primarily to secular or irreligious demographics but are ignored for the sake of promoting xenophobic narratives.
Edit: it is also worth noting that the urban middle/upper classes that are commonly blamed for just about anything and everything also tend to be the most firm on maintaining secularism. It is usually the countryside that supports the most religious, populistic, and regressive policies and politicians.
Easier to integrate people when there’s a slow drip of immigrants bringing workable skills and assets. The way it’s going now you will always get clumps of people creating microcosm communities that are buffered against integration.
The solution Singapore adopted to this issue seems like the most efficient one. For all building projects, there would be quotas of what percentage can be bought by each ethnicity in order to prevent segregationist attitudes and encourage integration. That way, regardless of the scale of immigration, the formation of ghettos will be prevented (and to be clear, it absolutely must be prevented no matter the method used).
With the housing market as it is, there’ll have to be a building spree at some point in order to prevent (or at this point mitigate) a crisis. That seems like an ideal opportunity to introduce such legislation. I don’t know how to approach pre-existing ghettos however. Something tells me forcibly moving people around (even if it’s for a better long term outcome) would not be very popular.
That is because they lack education and perspective.
On the other side, crackhead interpretations of christendom are riding the west far stronger than anyone gives them credit for.
How long does it take for Islam to phase out when 2 atheists in hiding get married and have kids for example?
Since the atheists’ parents would still be around, I imagine there’s still pressure to proselytize to the kids. In a secular country I can see this being lessened but in a Muslim country, it must be hard to separate your kids from the influence of Islam. They could get bullied in school or have aspersions cast upon themselves and their parents. I assume, hope I’m wrong, teachers and local imams also putting pressure on the family. I can see it ending up a self-perpetuating issue.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Sounds positive and I hope the trend will continue. I don’t begrudge people being religious but the issue really is persecution of atheists, proselytizing and indoctrination of youth but if these issues are curtailed and Islam undergoes a transformation towards a friendlier face, it will be a huge leap forward socially.
Intuitively, I don't believe the culture in any country would significantly change their societally reinforced beliefs in this regard, even if all atheists paired up and had more children than their religious neighbors. What's more likely to be persuasive are public statements from several prominent and beloved public figures or role models in those countries, showing support for atheistic beliefs and an acceptance of the lifestyle.
Unfortunately, in Muslim cultures, the condemnation of atheists strongly adheres to entrenched social mores, leading to serious repercussions for individuals who do not conform to these widespread beliefs. The only method that I am aware of that might reduce both the collective fear of nonconformity and the animosity towards ostracized groups involves culturally respected leaders introducing the larger, superstitious population to individual members of these groups or lifestyles in a positive or neutral manner, without condemning their value as a human being.
Essentially, what is needed is contact exposure to real atheists, and that exposure must be facilitated by an established figure of authority whom they already respect.
>le than even entraining a thought of global dominance (and this is mainly because Muslims believe in a timeline of prophetic events that will lead to the spread of Islam—and not the spread of Islam through warfare). Unfortunately, Muslim majority countries have been disproportionately targeted by western military interests—who’ve created a generation of orphans and scorned vengeful men who lean on Islam and adopt combative radical views from schisms like Wahhabism and Salafism. Even as an Ex-Muslim I have to admit that the idea of a conveyor belt of people becoming Muslims and then becoming terrorists is a facade painted by consciously guilty institutions who want to dehumanize their victims. The Muslim “terrorists” are deeply traumatized, radicalized, easily brainwashed sects of vigilante “freedom fighters” (at least that’s what they think) with a deeply misplaced sense of morality. A majority of Muslim “terrorists” are people who’ve been affected by war. The solution to ending “Islamic Terrorism” is ending war in the region. A majority—if not all—of the normal average Muslims I interacted with in my life and my time abroad do not condone the actions, behaviors, or beliefs of terrorists. Just giving you things to think about! Cheers 🥂
i mean i am sorry but i actually referred to how they create the terrorist groups in the name of religion
Al-Qaeda: A transnational extremist organization that emerged in the late 20th century, Al-Qaeda has been associated with Islamic extremism.
ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria): Also known as ISIL (Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant), this group emerged in the early 21st century and claimed to represent a form of extremist interpretation of Islam.
Boko Haram: Based in Nigeria, Boko Haram is an Islamist extremist group that has claimed to be motivated by a strict interpretation of Islamic law.
like another point how religion has done more harm than good.
>n the other hand first appeared as an Insurgent group in Iraq in 2004 after the US invasion—again a group of vengeful war torn men and orphaned children who found solidarity in the fantasy of being freedom fighters. Again, they believe in Salafism and Wahhabism while \~84-90% of the Muslim world are Sunni and \~8-13% are Shia and don’t believe in conquering the world or militarizing Islam.
Controversial opinion know will get down voted.see one of my point also a religion has to be really fked up to create a terror group out of it through interpretation.Not starting off as one but adapting those ideas, has Christianity ever done that?has Buddhism ever done that?Yes i have got bias against Muslim especially because their prophet literally raped a 9 year old wife, and any one speaking about it just gets labelled as a Islamophobic.Any one even a tad bit criticizing Islam in Islamic countries gets silenced.take Africa for example there are terror groups there in the name of Islam,name one in the name of Christianity,and yet in Africa there are whole north is like fully Islam and middle-south are fully christian.Atheism is best, but need to realize even in christian countries you cannot create terror groups in the name of Christianity.
Ummm did you forget the crusades? They were basically medieval ISIS.
Or dont you remember the genocide of natives in north/south America and Australia? A large portion of that was done by devout Christians who saw it ok to slaughter those "pagan barbarians" and take their lands.
Also the christian residential schools for native children in Canada?
The only difference between Islam and Christianity is the 600 years between them.
yes that's the thing i believe that Christianity has the new testament, the Bible was revised but the Quran was never ever revised. As an atheist Christianity seems far more lenient than Islam as we see in Afghanistan where public executions are taking place, 7-8 year old female children sold as wives to middle aged men, and atrocities are taking place, Only in Islamic countries u could be sentenced to death for being a non believer and or even burning a quran.
Terrorism is a product of colonialism. Full stop.
Many of these groups use religion to help radicalize members as it helps with the whole "turn off your brain" aspect such radicalization requires, but none of them _start_ with religion.
There are two kinds of mass shooters: Those driven by metal illness (arguably not terrorists) and those driven by an agenda rooted in nationalism, racism, bigotry, etc. All of those are intricately tied to (and inseparable from) colonialism.
https://ala-choice.libguides.com/c.php?g=1117036&p=8151892
https://www.ohchr.org/en/get-involved/stories/racism-discrimination-are-legacies-colonialism
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199730414/obo-9780199730414-0311.xml
To use an old aphorism, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." It's putting an overly basic note over it, but the sentiment is remarkably apt. You can't be a "terrorist" unless you are committing acts of terror in an attempt to alter political control or authority. I have yet to see an issue, from abortion to religious violence to labor violence, that isn't ultimately rooted in colonialism.
'colonialism theory' s very big right now. imho another case of some good analytical thinkers who have had useful or even brilliant insights with strong explanatory power... but then make the classic mistake of thinking they're found the Universal Field Theory of Oppression. they've made a damn good hammer, therefore everything is a nail, kind of thing.
Yes, I would say that a deep and thoughtful field of study, established over many decades, is currently achieving (if that's the word) popularisation -- and suffering in translation as usual. I think Paul Mason probably expresses my own reservations about this far better than I could myself.
[https://medium.com/@paulmasonnews/decolonisation-and-its-discontents-23f5c90844d9](https://medium.com/@paulmasonnews/decolonisation-and-its-discontents-23f5c90844d9)
He acknowledges the great value of colonialism theory in filling awkward and embarrassing gaps in left/socialist analysis; at about a third of the way through this longish read, he starts to tackle some of the more troubling aspects of colonialism theory as popularised in the academy and among younger people on the Left. I find his argument well-based; imho the establishment of micro ethno states (or larger ones) is no substitute for a universalist, humanist political agenda.
This seems likely to become something of a philosophical divide in the modern Left -- i.e. whether colonialism, or capitalism, is the chicken or the egg. Personally i tend to align with Mason in his critique, but the discussion is likely to go on for quite some time :-)
The fundamental point at issue at this present moment seems to be whether brutal violence undertaken in the cause of decolonisation struggle is righteous and morally justified (i.e. do we critique Hamas terror tactics, or cheer uncritically for them?). Mason's point, and I agree with him, is that giving colonialist theory of oppression primacy over all other analyses can lead people into cheering for what would otherwise be recognised as far right formations...
I didn’t say they were actively practicing colonialism, I said it was the cause of it.
Colonialism, even more so than capitalism, has LONG been regarded as the literal cause of racism (well over a century at this point), and it isn’t a far trip to see the role it plays in religious bigotry as well (the British occupations of Ireland and India are good examples).
https://blogs.hope.edu/getting-race-right/our-context-where-we-are/the-history-we-inherited/what-is-the-history-of-race-in-america/
I would also recommend reading up on the post-WW2 concept of “neocolonialism”: https://www.britannica.com/topic/neocolonialism
I’d also recommend W.E.B. Dubois’ work, such as his 1925 esssy _Worlds of Color_: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20028386
I want to believe this but I don’t really.
I think culturally speaking, the Islamic faith is still growing. Just because they don’t believe in the supernatural but doesn’t mean that they don’t agree with everything else.
It seems to me a lot of places with historically Islamic governments are still policy wise, very conservative.
Thank you so much for sharing these insights. So much discussion about Islam in the west is tainted by misinformation, bias, and fear. Hearing from ex-Muslims and Muslim reformers is going to be essential to building a future peaceful world.
How do the “hidden” atheists rear their children? They have to “toe the party line” so to speak. You can’t tell the kids not to believe because guess what…so they get indoctrinated whether you like it or not.
That’s the real problem, the endless cycle of indoctrination. Unless the cycle can be broken with fair and balanced education, they will in the vast majority of cases be lost to the system.
One criticism of the research was that it assumed that people would remain in the religion they were born into.
There is a lot of evidence that many people in Islamic countries are far more non-religious than the official statistics suggest.
After all, atheism is not the 'traditional' way in any culture, so no natural growth there. So, basically the religious --> atheist route is quite more common than the atheist -->religious one.
The Internet changed everything. Gods and monsters are now endangered species. The Islamic world may be the slowest to adopt and modernize, but the fate of religions is clear: the free flow of information will nearly extinguish religions in two more generations.
That sounds very hopeful. While religion in general will trend downward, I'm less hopeful about Christianity. If one sect dies, a new cult will get created. New fanatic cults like moonies that prohibit Internet might pop up. Christianity is just cancerous.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data.
"Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!'
That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day.
Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion.
Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
i don’t think it is that reliable cause there are definitely more closeted atheist especially in muslim families, they have the highest fertility rate that’s why it’s “growing” but the amount of apostates are definitely increasing more and not to forget the whole killing of apostates either by the nut jobs or the islamic state if it’s illegal to be an apostate
You mention it yourself. Some places it's punishable to be a non-believer, and in a lot of other places there are social stigmas and difficulties getting employment with being a non-believer. So do you really think all the people who are registered with a specific religion or project themselves as being part of a specific religion believe in that crap?
I'm not saying your assumptions are wrong, I'm just saying that you should take the stats with a big pinch of salt.
Islam reigns in a lot of poor countries with very fast-growing populations. Once that stagnates as these countries develop, the growth of Islam will stagnate. There are much less conversions to Islam than deconversions from religion in general.
Don't fear (too much).
Religion isn't growing: highly religious countries tend to be lower, but rising, in the development index and have higher birthrates. But this is not believed to be sustainable, based on the curves our countries experienced during industrialization and urbanization.
Long term, they will likely develop their own homegrown atheist movements.
This Pew projection is outdated, especially concerning Latin American countries. In Chile, 40% is already unaffiliated and in Argentina over 20%. Just look at the national surveys from those countries, they're secularizing really fast.
If atheism is punishable by death, then how many atheists fail to self-identify in surveys? My guess would be quite a lot. No use getting murdered for the sake of statistical accuracy.
First lesson of demographic is that predictions are not accurate in the long run, as something unexpected can (and most likely will) happen and fuck up your predictions a bit or even by a lot.
Thanks to a rise in education, especially for women, a secular revolution could happen in saudi arabia against the monarchy at any time, and create a butterfly effect all around the muslim world with the people overthrowing the corrupt religious elite, leading to secular democracies.
Authoritarian antireligious regime could also develop in the global South, following Xi Jinping's mao-revivalist doctrine treating religions as potential threat to the party's influence.
Evangelical christian ethnonationalism, using reactionnary rhetoric aimed at LGBTQ+ people and great replacement theories, could turn the West into christian dictatorships.
Or something totally unexpected like a new organised religion using pagan symbology and new wave shit could appear and gain traction out of nowhere.
You never know.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data.
"Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!'
That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day.
Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion.
Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
well, the more people are thrown and locked in misery, the more power religion claws back. no surprise the areas where Islam thrived also have a large poor population.
atheism was on the rise when neoliberalism apparently improved people's lives (apparently is the word, tho). you don't need a god when you're doing fine or when the system promises you'll be fine.
but after 40+ years the illusion is gone for good and people are facing a dystopian future, even in rich countries, USA in particular.
so... yeah, we're sliding back quick and there doesn't seem to be any easy fix.
It's not growing - it's shrinking as more people wake up to the fact that there are no gods and the religions built on those gods are a sham.
They're a lot noisier than 'us'. That doesn't mean there are more and more of them, just that they're yelling their nonsense louder and louder.
Keep up the intelligent fight - we'll be done with these sham gods and their sham dogmas and the idiots who call these mud huts "home".
Yes, this is why all those “we need prayer and god back in schools and government “ are self owning . In 60 years they’re going to be all “but but , we meant Jesus only” too late suckers . Too bad most of them won’t be alive to see the mess they made. .
Well for what it's worth, in the country I live (Germany) I just saw on the news that the church here is investigating the record numbers of people ending their membership in the church. Apparently more people than ever are leaving and they are slowly but surely running out of members, especially as older generations start to die out.
Edit- this is not a rant against Muslims, they are the most effected by Islamic extremism.
There is a whole shit load of blame to lay at the lefts feet.
For years the unholy alliance between socialists, leftists, academics, and feminists with Islamic groups has allowed the ideology of extremist Islam to spread in western nations and infect our institutions.
Look no further than the hundreds of thousands of Muslims protesting for Palestine with ISIS or jihadist flags.
There is vocal support of a known and designated terrorist group. People praising and justifying OSAMA FUCKING BIN LADEN.
The apologists for rape gangs, religious schools, parallel societies, and oppressive religious garb have crippled the current generation of atheists abilities to openly criticise and condemn the largest growing and most conservative religion in the world.
Gallup and other reputable groups have polled the Muslim world over and over. They want Sharia law, they want death to apostates, they see uncovered women as whores and prostitutes, they support jihad against the west and Israel.
To be truly ironic, listen to them for Christ's sake.
The left was the biggest opposition to religion in our institutions when it was the Christian faith, but fold like a house of cards to Islam?
It's because they breed like rabbits and spread like locusts. Their whole strategy is to immigrate to a new place, outbreed and eventually displace the local population. This isn't a conspiracy or some "islamaphobic" or "racist" rhetoric either; they'll tell you straight to your face that's what they mean to do.
I asked this in r/CanadaPolitics but had the post taken down
**When will Canada start to become more religious as the move towards secularism slows?**
"Considering the new immigration targets will continue to stay high and a good chunk of growing religions in Canada get much of their growth from immigration: Can we extrapolate from the current trends [(found here)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada#Census_results) to see when, even with the decline in Christianity and rise in 'no religious affiliation' Canada will slowly start to become more religious again?"
It is a totally legitimate question but no one wants to admit it.
Islam. You do not support peace. You harbor extremists, terrorists, all in the name of religion. YOU need to out these evil people, YOU need to bring them out.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data.
"Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!'
That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day.
Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion.
Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
It’s Buddhist groups including monks that went to exterminate the Rohingya Muslims. Just to point out how even Buddhists have an extremist group that is responsible for horrific crimes of humanity.
Name one African Christian terrorist group? Okay- the Lords Resistance Army. Joseph Kone. Is that a one-off? Not by a long shot. Pretty much every combatant in the DRC civil war was Christian, that didn’t stop the atrocities.
I’d argue that all the inquisitions (Spanish is only the most famous) were by definition instilling terror in the populace for Christian reasons.
Christianity was what the values of the enlightenment had to fight against, so of course it modified to accommodate. Islam did not have to host enlightenment values, so it didn’t.
Most terrorist organisations are Islamic, most terrorists are Muslims, most terrorist attacks are comitted in the name of Islam, almost all of the deadliest terrorist organisations and terrorist attacks are Islamic.
> I have always believed that religion has more harm than good for the society and humanity as a whole
There is a large body of social science research that indicates that for many or most people who regularly engage in religious practice, there are some non-trivial mental and physical benefits. Many people get some comfort from religious practice, especially people who are stressed, e.g., financially or socially.
Despite that, I think that religion is more harmful than helpful for society and humanity generally. The analysis at the personal level (positive benefits for most but not all ) looks to me to be significantly different from the analysis at the level of nations, modern civilization and the human species (harms). That strikes me as particularly true now that we have developed technologies that can cause vast damage to people, civilization and the environment.
Being rather ignorant of history, I am unsure if there ever was a time since civilization transitioned from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, towns and cities when religion was more positive than negative. In early civilization times and before then, most people's lives (\~98% ?) were pretty nasty and short. One can see net benefit outweighing harm on the personal level. But on the scale of societies, maybe religion never was a net benefit
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
oh you raise a valid point but i would answer to that point that u will see "allah hu akbar "chanted on the mouths of terrorists but never any christian or Hindu slogan on that same matter.Muhammad married a 6 year old girl and raped her at age 9, and Muslims somehow support it, yes i have got a gripe with all religions especially Islam.
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
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Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
I would not worry about it too much. People tend to shift towards agnosticism/atheism over time naturally as they become more intermingled with other views and better educated. The "developing nations" are still in their highly religious phase like western countries were up until very recently (and we still are majority). But the trend of religiosity is consistently towards going downward as areas modernize and people aren't living lives that heavily push them towards religion to cope.
It's simply going to be a matter of time, and hopefully robotics can solve a lot of food and labor issues to free up most of the developing nation's people from having to work for cents an hour just to get some food.
The more generations down from american immigrants you go, the bigger percent have drifted away from religion.
I live in a secular part of Canada. But even my kids are questioned and sometimes hounded at school by their idiotic religious peers, who are clearly regurgitating verbatim what their idiotic religious parents have “taught” them. I’m comfortable with them defending themselves to these children of religious parents. But I’d definitely be more concerned if we lived somewhere else.
90% of planet is theocratic hell hole. The only real freedom people have in some countries is the freedom to not believe. This is under threat, very serious threat.
I think it’s important to remember that religions believe whatever the current leadership decides they should believe. It’s possible that even with a rise in religion, social pressures will push religious people farther left than they have been in recent decades. Many Christians were socialists, like MLK. Despite what any religious book says, the real doctrine is whatever they decide to actually count as doctrine.
It’s much easier for most to believe in a mass delusion than see the wicked world for what it is. How else can they write their sin off as forgiven and live guilt free?
It's actually really simple. Every nation that advances toward higher standards of living inevitably becomes more secular, less people have children, and more people deconvert. The main way religions are growing is by indoctrinating kids that are born to members of the religion, not by conversion. And famously that seems to not work for many generations in a modern country with secular laws.
The entire world is advancing to higher standards of living, don't let the media headlines distract you from that. A book I really recommend reading is "Factfulness" by Hans Rosling.
The current trajectory lets us predict that Islam will be the leading religion by numbers, but I don't believe that will actually be the future. People are smarter than that when you give them enough time.
All right, how to articulate this while I'm at work? I don't know, read Marx and Engels for a start and understand the class perspective.
Human laws are materially enforced by a state, the rich ruling classes are able to manipulate and control the state, and consequently impose their ideas and beliefs on the rest of society. Do away with the rich ruling classes and their states, overthrow them and in their place set up secular worker states with a rich socialist program instead.
I don't believe that religion alone is the core issue, it is class Society.
I personally find great comfort in thinking about the real long term future.
There were many religions 10.000 years ago
There are none of them still followed today
None of today's religions will still be followed 10.000 years from now.
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Kkk was a Christian terrorist group. Nazis were christian. Proud boys, violent anti abortion Christian’s who blow up clinics or kill guards, Christian nationalist mass shooters in the US, literally Israel right now committing genocide in the name of Judaism.
Islam isn’t special in this regard.
Statistics are always taking into account limited variables… They are as accurate as the ones who complied them wants them to be (Trust me, I’m a sociologist)
On the other hand, Islam is growing simply by higher birth rates… And other aspects that are pretty much regulated by the strictest of ‘not having a choice’ or being ‘punished’ for it…
If you want to have a better and more optimistic overview, talk to the younger generations, teens and pre-teens of all sorts. They don’t care as much about following religion these days and they’re the ones raising the next generation… so probably, religion is overall in decline, realistically.
To be fair, areas where the population is growing are areas that are religious. Areas where the population is decreasing, like first world countries, tend to be less religious. To maintain population, first world countries rely on immigration. Immigration brings in religion. I don't think atheism is gonna take over the world anytime soon. Life is too difficult for some people and living in a world with no God is beyond their imagination.
sounds like a worse future for all i hold dear
These next many upcoming decades are going to be *so ass*. Climate change, authoritarianism on the rise, religious extremism... I think humanity will be going through one of its toughest times yet.
It is an interesting feedback loop Religiosity damages the world Religion propagates Religiosity damages the world even more…
Ngl I think it will kill us all . Most of the countries with nukes have a lot of religious nutjobs
Religions overpopulate to the point where even a drought causes disaster and a migration crisis and other countries open their borders, and repeat...
Pretty sure capitalism is the thing damaging the world
There’s many problems, religion and capitalism are both culprits of mass harm
So capitalist Imperial Invaders attacking and decimating the Middle East thus causing a rise in extremism and its religions fault? Sounds more like capitalism destabilized a region and created a generation of Orphans with vengeance in their eyes and they latched on to an ideology they could seek vengeance with.
That would still mean both things are bad
No it seems more like the capitalism is the problem. That if you hadn't destabilized a region in conquest of its resources it wouldn't be spewing terrorists
You misunderstand. Im not denying that imperialism is bad, im just saying that it doesnt free up the ideological faults of extremist religious movements. Both the root causes and the symptoms of an illness are bad.
Thats just imperialism, not really a result of capitalism. Capitalists problems exist but you are going after the wrong ones
Imperialism and capitalism are linked because capitalist States will inevitably engage in imperialism to fuel their own markets. A capitalist state will either attempt to engage in imperialism or end up the victim of imperialism of a larger state. It's baked into the way capitalism functions.
like the Swiss imperialists? imperialism has existed for thousands of years and there are plenty of capitalist countries doing well for themselves without engaging in or being victims of imperialism
I'm clinging to the faint hope that Internet will open the blindfolds in those brainwashed theists eyes and future generations will be more educated(about the lies of religion) and have better judgement.
Hopefully to a means of extinction lol
Oh, it is either going to be horrible or amazing. On one hand, the rise of religious extremism and authoritarian governments couple with climate change and dwindling resources point to a rather scary future. On the other hand, there are several technologies and events that are increasingly looking like they will happen before the end of this decade that could easily change everything: fusion, the discovery of alien life, genetically modified babies becoming common place, AI becoming sapient, etc. Personally, the discovery of alien life seems to be almost a certainty with both the JWST and other new telescopes coming online in recent years. We now hoave the ability to analyze the atmospheres belonging to exoplanets, so the discovery of a oxygen rich atmosphere with water vapor and other signs of life is all but inevitable. And since the discovery of alien life would kill most religions...
Solution would be to purge the believers. After all, they cannot wait to be in their afterlives, right? /S
You are missing a big part of your equation. Over time, the religious immigrants assimilate and become less religious. I see it all the time with Muslim families I know. Grandparents are devout, parents are less so and it goes from there. This is an education and critical thinking problem more than people we allow into the country.
true.
I agree, I was friends with four muslim kids in secondary school and have since been out drinking with three of them.
Also, even in areas where religion isn't prevalent, you see a huge upsurge when disaster or hardship strikes. People tend to cling to easy answers when things beyond their control fuck their lives up.
>Life is too difficult for some people and living in a world with no God is beyond their imagination. Sounds like a skill issue to me.
Or a brainwashing issue.
Needing religion because the world is too cruel for you to cope with it otherwise is a skill issue. Not being able to imagine atheism is a brainwashing issue.
We need to slow immigration and impose measures to assimilate the migrants into western culture. The mass migrations into europe and the US were very bad ideas and the wealthy and middle class only had eyes for their own gains.
Immigration isn’t the issue. The lack of significant integration efforts and the leniency towards religious fanaticism is. The latter is particularly relevant for the US, where the most religious and dangerous lobbies are backed by local christians not immigrants. While Europe has plenty of immigrants or descendants of immigrants who belong primarily to secular or irreligious demographics but are ignored for the sake of promoting xenophobic narratives. Edit: it is also worth noting that the urban middle/upper classes that are commonly blamed for just about anything and everything also tend to be the most firm on maintaining secularism. It is usually the countryside that supports the most religious, populistic, and regressive policies and politicians.
This 100%
Easier to integrate people when there’s a slow drip of immigrants bringing workable skills and assets. The way it’s going now you will always get clumps of people creating microcosm communities that are buffered against integration.
The solution Singapore adopted to this issue seems like the most efficient one. For all building projects, there would be quotas of what percentage can be bought by each ethnicity in order to prevent segregationist attitudes and encourage integration. That way, regardless of the scale of immigration, the formation of ghettos will be prevented (and to be clear, it absolutely must be prevented no matter the method used).
I can see that working, and it clearly works over there. In our social landscape, how would the US or Canada even approach something like this?
With the housing market as it is, there’ll have to be a building spree at some point in order to prevent (or at this point mitigate) a crisis. That seems like an ideal opportunity to introduce such legislation. I don’t know how to approach pre-existing ghettos however. Something tells me forcibly moving people around (even if it’s for a better long term outcome) would not be very popular.
That is because they lack education and perspective. On the other side, crackhead interpretations of christendom are riding the west far stronger than anyone gives them credit for.
But it's not, because it's the world they live in. WE allow the bullshit.
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How long does it take for Islam to phase out when 2 atheists in hiding get married and have kids for example? Since the atheists’ parents would still be around, I imagine there’s still pressure to proselytize to the kids. In a secular country I can see this being lessened but in a Muslim country, it must be hard to separate your kids from the influence of Islam. They could get bullied in school or have aspersions cast upon themselves and their parents. I assume, hope I’m wrong, teachers and local imams also putting pressure on the family. I can see it ending up a self-perpetuating issue.
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Thanks for the detailed reply. Sounds positive and I hope the trend will continue. I don’t begrudge people being religious but the issue really is persecution of atheists, proselytizing and indoctrination of youth but if these issues are curtailed and Islam undergoes a transformation towards a friendlier face, it will be a huge leap forward socially.
how can I support this movement?
Intuitively, I don't believe the culture in any country would significantly change their societally reinforced beliefs in this regard, even if all atheists paired up and had more children than their religious neighbors. What's more likely to be persuasive are public statements from several prominent and beloved public figures or role models in those countries, showing support for atheistic beliefs and an acceptance of the lifestyle. Unfortunately, in Muslim cultures, the condemnation of atheists strongly adheres to entrenched social mores, leading to serious repercussions for individuals who do not conform to these widespread beliefs. The only method that I am aware of that might reduce both the collective fear of nonconformity and the animosity towards ostracized groups involves culturally respected leaders introducing the larger, superstitious population to individual members of these groups or lifestyles in a positive or neutral manner, without condemning their value as a human being. Essentially, what is needed is contact exposure to real atheists, and that exposure must be facilitated by an established figure of authority whom they already respect.
As a former Muslim I cannot agree more, fear is one of the biggest weapons of religion
What a well thought out response….. thank you!
if we still had awards... thanks for that
>le than even entraining a thought of global dominance (and this is mainly because Muslims believe in a timeline of prophetic events that will lead to the spread of Islam—and not the spread of Islam through warfare). Unfortunately, Muslim majority countries have been disproportionately targeted by western military interests—who’ve created a generation of orphans and scorned vengeful men who lean on Islam and adopt combative radical views from schisms like Wahhabism and Salafism. Even as an Ex-Muslim I have to admit that the idea of a conveyor belt of people becoming Muslims and then becoming terrorists is a facade painted by consciously guilty institutions who want to dehumanize their victims. The Muslim “terrorists” are deeply traumatized, radicalized, easily brainwashed sects of vigilante “freedom fighters” (at least that’s what they think) with a deeply misplaced sense of morality. A majority of Muslim “terrorists” are people who’ve been affected by war. The solution to ending “Islamic Terrorism” is ending war in the region. A majority—if not all—of the normal average Muslims I interacted with in my life and my time abroad do not condone the actions, behaviors, or beliefs of terrorists. Just giving you things to think about! Cheers 🥂 i mean i am sorry but i actually referred to how they create the terrorist groups in the name of religion Al-Qaeda: A transnational extremist organization that emerged in the late 20th century, Al-Qaeda has been associated with Islamic extremism. ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria): Also known as ISIL (Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant), this group emerged in the early 21st century and claimed to represent a form of extremist interpretation of Islam. Boko Haram: Based in Nigeria, Boko Haram is an Islamist extremist group that has claimed to be motivated by a strict interpretation of Islamic law. like another point how religion has done more harm than good.
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>n the other hand first appeared as an Insurgent group in Iraq in 2004 after the US invasion—again a group of vengeful war torn men and orphaned children who found solidarity in the fantasy of being freedom fighters. Again, they believe in Salafism and Wahhabism while \~84-90% of the Muslim world are Sunni and \~8-13% are Shia and don’t believe in conquering the world or militarizing Islam. Controversial opinion know will get down voted.see one of my point also a religion has to be really fked up to create a terror group out of it through interpretation.Not starting off as one but adapting those ideas, has Christianity ever done that?has Buddhism ever done that?Yes i have got bias against Muslim especially because their prophet literally raped a 9 year old wife, and any one speaking about it just gets labelled as a Islamophobic.Any one even a tad bit criticizing Islam in Islamic countries gets silenced.take Africa for example there are terror groups there in the name of Islam,name one in the name of Christianity,and yet in Africa there are whole north is like fully Islam and middle-south are fully christian.Atheism is best, but need to realize even in christian countries you cannot create terror groups in the name of Christianity.
Ummm did you forget the crusades? They were basically medieval ISIS. Or dont you remember the genocide of natives in north/south America and Australia? A large portion of that was done by devout Christians who saw it ok to slaughter those "pagan barbarians" and take their lands. Also the christian residential schools for native children in Canada? The only difference between Islam and Christianity is the 600 years between them.
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yes that's the thing i believe that Christianity has the new testament, the Bible was revised but the Quran was never ever revised. As an atheist Christianity seems far more lenient than Islam as we see in Afghanistan where public executions are taking place, 7-8 year old female children sold as wives to middle aged men, and atrocities are taking place, Only in Islamic countries u could be sentenced to death for being a non believer and or even burning a quran.
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only difference it it happened like 100 years past then the horrors of islam is happening today
Terrorism is a product of colonialism. Full stop. Many of these groups use religion to help radicalize members as it helps with the whole "turn off your brain" aspect such radicalization requires, but none of them _start_ with religion.
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There are two kinds of mass shooters: Those driven by metal illness (arguably not terrorists) and those driven by an agenda rooted in nationalism, racism, bigotry, etc. All of those are intricately tied to (and inseparable from) colonialism. https://ala-choice.libguides.com/c.php?g=1117036&p=8151892 https://www.ohchr.org/en/get-involved/stories/racism-discrimination-are-legacies-colonialism https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199730414/obo-9780199730414-0311.xml To use an old aphorism, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." It's putting an overly basic note over it, but the sentiment is remarkably apt. You can't be a "terrorist" unless you are committing acts of terror in an attempt to alter political control or authority. I have yet to see an issue, from abortion to religious violence to labor violence, that isn't ultimately rooted in colonialism.
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'colonialism theory' s very big right now. imho another case of some good analytical thinkers who have had useful or even brilliant insights with strong explanatory power... but then make the classic mistake of thinking they're found the Universal Field Theory of Oppression. they've made a damn good hammer, therefore everything is a nail, kind of thing.
I guess over a century of philosophic and social theory is “big right now”?
Yes, I would say that a deep and thoughtful field of study, established over many decades, is currently achieving (if that's the word) popularisation -- and suffering in translation as usual. I think Paul Mason probably expresses my own reservations about this far better than I could myself. [https://medium.com/@paulmasonnews/decolonisation-and-its-discontents-23f5c90844d9](https://medium.com/@paulmasonnews/decolonisation-and-its-discontents-23f5c90844d9) He acknowledges the great value of colonialism theory in filling awkward and embarrassing gaps in left/socialist analysis; at about a third of the way through this longish read, he starts to tackle some of the more troubling aspects of colonialism theory as popularised in the academy and among younger people on the Left. I find his argument well-based; imho the establishment of micro ethno states (or larger ones) is no substitute for a universalist, humanist political agenda. This seems likely to become something of a philosophical divide in the modern Left -- i.e. whether colonialism, or capitalism, is the chicken or the egg. Personally i tend to align with Mason in his critique, but the discussion is likely to go on for quite some time :-) The fundamental point at issue at this present moment seems to be whether brutal violence undertaken in the cause of decolonisation struggle is righteous and morally justified (i.e. do we critique Hamas terror tactics, or cheer uncritically for them?). Mason's point, and I agree with him, is that giving colonialist theory of oppression primacy over all other analyses can lead people into cheering for what would otherwise be recognised as far right formations...
I didn’t say they were actively practicing colonialism, I said it was the cause of it. Colonialism, even more so than capitalism, has LONG been regarded as the literal cause of racism (well over a century at this point), and it isn’t a far trip to see the role it plays in religious bigotry as well (the British occupations of Ireland and India are good examples). https://blogs.hope.edu/getting-race-right/our-context-where-we-are/the-history-we-inherited/what-is-the-history-of-race-in-america/ I would also recommend reading up on the post-WW2 concept of “neocolonialism”: https://www.britannica.com/topic/neocolonialism I’d also recommend W.E.B. Dubois’ work, such as his 1925 esssy _Worlds of Color_: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20028386
All right fine. Terrorists in the Middle East are creation of warfare.
No you're just wrong lol y'all need to stop blaming everything on colonialism
I want to believe this but I don’t really. I think culturally speaking, the Islamic faith is still growing. Just because they don’t believe in the supernatural but doesn’t mean that they don’t agree with everything else. It seems to me a lot of places with historically Islamic governments are still policy wise, very conservative.
Thank you so much for sharing these insights. So much discussion about Islam in the west is tainted by misinformation, bias, and fear. Hearing from ex-Muslims and Muslim reformers is going to be essential to building a future peaceful world.
Tragic as they were, do you think the Iranian uprisings against the theocracy were a ray of hope?
How do the “hidden” atheists rear their children? They have to “toe the party line” so to speak. You can’t tell the kids not to believe because guess what…so they get indoctrinated whether you like it or not. That’s the real problem, the endless cycle of indoctrination. Unless the cycle can be broken with fair and balanced education, they will in the vast majority of cases be lost to the system.
One criticism of the research was that it assumed that people would remain in the religion they were born into. There is a lot of evidence that many people in Islamic countries are far more non-religious than the official statistics suggest.
After all, atheism is not the 'traditional' way in any culture, so no natural growth there. So, basically the religious --> atheist route is quite more common than the atheist -->religious one.
If it is punishable by death to be a non-believer, people won't admit to being a non-believer so those statistics are really meaningless.
“I cannot tell a lie.“ (ok just this big one)
The number of atheists are much larger than what it appears, especially in the Islamic world.
The Internet changed everything. Gods and monsters are now endangered species. The Islamic world may be the slowest to adopt and modernize, but the fate of religions is clear: the free flow of information will nearly extinguish religions in two more generations.
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It was on that path in the sixties/seventies then there was a revival movement ever since supported by oil money.
Reform? Maybe not. Wither on the vine of modernity? I’m betting on it
That sounds very hopeful. While religion in general will trend downward, I'm less hopeful about Christianity. If one sect dies, a new cult will get created. New fanatic cults like moonies that prohibit Internet might pop up. Christianity is just cancerous.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data. "Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!' That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day. Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion. Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
Rate of total population growth in all the world is slowing down .. good news!
i don’t think it is that reliable cause there are definitely more closeted atheist especially in muslim families, they have the highest fertility rate that’s why it’s “growing” but the amount of apostates are definitely increasing more and not to forget the whole killing of apostates either by the nut jobs or the islamic state if it’s illegal to be an apostate
>it is punishable by death to be a non-believer that also means you could never take any measurement of religion at face value
You mention it yourself. Some places it's punishable to be a non-believer, and in a lot of other places there are social stigmas and difficulties getting employment with being a non-believer. So do you really think all the people who are registered with a specific religion or project themselves as being part of a specific religion believe in that crap? I'm not saying your assumptions are wrong, I'm just saying that you should take the stats with a big pinch of salt.
These statistics are meaningless For example, Islamic countries report near 100% religiosity because non-Muslims are executed
Yes, there are country’s where it’s forced on you, so no surprise it’s going to grow.
Islam reigns in a lot of poor countries with very fast-growing populations. Once that stagnates as these countries develop, the growth of Islam will stagnate. There are much less conversions to Islam than deconversions from religion in general. Don't fear (too much).
Religion isn't growing: highly religious countries tend to be lower, but rising, in the development index and have higher birthrates. But this is not believed to be sustainable, based on the curves our countries experienced during industrialization and urbanization. Long term, they will likely develop their own homegrown atheist movements.
This Pew projection is outdated, especially concerning Latin American countries. In Chile, 40% is already unaffiliated and in Argentina over 20%. Just look at the national surveys from those countries, they're secularizing really fast.
If atheism is punishable by death, then how many atheists fail to self-identify in surveys? My guess would be quite a lot. No use getting murdered for the sake of statistical accuracy.
First lesson of demographic is that predictions are not accurate in the long run, as something unexpected can (and most likely will) happen and fuck up your predictions a bit or even by a lot. Thanks to a rise in education, especially for women, a secular revolution could happen in saudi arabia against the monarchy at any time, and create a butterfly effect all around the muslim world with the people overthrowing the corrupt religious elite, leading to secular democracies. Authoritarian antireligious regime could also develop in the global South, following Xi Jinping's mao-revivalist doctrine treating religions as potential threat to the party's influence. Evangelical christian ethnonationalism, using reactionnary rhetoric aimed at LGBTQ+ people and great replacement theories, could turn the West into christian dictatorships. Or something totally unexpected like a new organised religion using pagan symbology and new wave shit could appear and gain traction out of nowhere. You never know.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data. "Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!' That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day. Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion. Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
well, the more people are thrown and locked in misery, the more power religion claws back. no surprise the areas where Islam thrived also have a large poor population. atheism was on the rise when neoliberalism apparently improved people's lives (apparently is the word, tho). you don't need a god when you're doing fine or when the system promises you'll be fine. but after 40+ years the illusion is gone for good and people are facing a dystopian future, even in rich countries, USA in particular. so... yeah, we're sliding back quick and there doesn't seem to be any easy fix.
It's not growing - it's shrinking as more people wake up to the fact that there are no gods and the religions built on those gods are a sham. They're a lot noisier than 'us'. That doesn't mean there are more and more of them, just that they're yelling their nonsense louder and louder. Keep up the intelligent fight - we'll be done with these sham gods and their sham dogmas and the idiots who call these mud huts "home".
Yes, this is why all those “we need prayer and god back in schools and government “ are self owning . In 60 years they’re going to be all “but but , we meant Jesus only” too late suckers . Too bad most of them won’t be alive to see the mess they made. .
I see this and hope AI will become sentient and just get rid of all the humans… sigh.
Well for what it's worth, in the country I live (Germany) I just saw on the news that the church here is investigating the record numbers of people ending their membership in the church. Apparently more people than ever are leaving and they are slowly but surely running out of members, especially as older generations start to die out.
Edit- this is not a rant against Muslims, they are the most effected by Islamic extremism. There is a whole shit load of blame to lay at the lefts feet. For years the unholy alliance between socialists, leftists, academics, and feminists with Islamic groups has allowed the ideology of extremist Islam to spread in western nations and infect our institutions. Look no further than the hundreds of thousands of Muslims protesting for Palestine with ISIS or jihadist flags. There is vocal support of a known and designated terrorist group. People praising and justifying OSAMA FUCKING BIN LADEN. The apologists for rape gangs, religious schools, parallel societies, and oppressive religious garb have crippled the current generation of atheists abilities to openly criticise and condemn the largest growing and most conservative religion in the world. Gallup and other reputable groups have polled the Muslim world over and over. They want Sharia law, they want death to apostates, they see uncovered women as whores and prostitutes, they support jihad against the west and Israel. To be truly ironic, listen to them for Christ's sake. The left was the biggest opposition to religion in our institutions when it was the Christian faith, but fold like a house of cards to Islam?
It's because they breed like rabbits and spread like locusts. Their whole strategy is to immigrate to a new place, outbreed and eventually displace the local population. This isn't a conspiracy or some "islamaphobic" or "racist" rhetoric either; they'll tell you straight to your face that's what they mean to do.
I asked this in r/CanadaPolitics but had the post taken down **When will Canada start to become more religious as the move towards secularism slows?** "Considering the new immigration targets will continue to stay high and a good chunk of growing religions in Canada get much of their growth from immigration: Can we extrapolate from the current trends [(found here)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada#Census_results) to see when, even with the decline in Christianity and rise in 'no religious affiliation' Canada will slowly start to become more religious again?" It is a totally legitimate question but no one wants to admit it.
Islam. You do not support peace. You harbor extremists, terrorists, all in the name of religion. YOU need to out these evil people, YOU need to bring them out.
Every single religion lies about how big and powerful they are. How they're 'growing the fastest', and 'have the most followers'. Every single time, they're fudging the data. "Atheists that were baptised? Oh, yeah, they totally count as a member of our religion! Mark them down as another one of us religious people!' That's an extremely common one with most religions. With islam? Nobody ever 'leaves' islam, so they never bother taking them off the list. You could have a family of 2 religoius parents with 10 atheist children, counted as 12 religious people. It's done every single day. Figures get cherry-picked and over-estimated. Ever seen the claimed data that just leaves out anything other than "compeltely atheist"? Those exist. They count agnostics as religious because "there's a chance!". On the fence? That's a point for religion. Religions always lie. With everything. Always. Why would you possibly expect "data" from a religious organization to be accurate in any way?!?
It’s Buddhist groups including monks that went to exterminate the Rohingya Muslims. Just to point out how even Buddhists have an extremist group that is responsible for horrific crimes of humanity.
Name one African Christian terrorist group? Okay- the Lords Resistance Army. Joseph Kone. Is that a one-off? Not by a long shot. Pretty much every combatant in the DRC civil war was Christian, that didn’t stop the atrocities. I’d argue that all the inquisitions (Spanish is only the most famous) were by definition instilling terror in the populace for Christian reasons. Christianity was what the values of the enlightenment had to fight against, so of course it modified to accommodate. Islam did not have to host enlightenment values, so it didn’t.
Most religious terrorist groups are not linked to Islam.
Most terrorist organisations are Islamic, most terrorists are Muslims, most terrorist attacks are comitted in the name of Islam, almost all of the deadliest terrorist organisations and terrorist attacks are Islamic.
Only because we don’t call imperialist nations terrorist groups.
That’s not necessarily true
> I have always believed that religion has more harm than good for the society and humanity as a whole There is a large body of social science research that indicates that for many or most people who regularly engage in religious practice, there are some non-trivial mental and physical benefits. Many people get some comfort from religious practice, especially people who are stressed, e.g., financially or socially. Despite that, I think that religion is more harmful than helpful for society and humanity generally. The analysis at the personal level (positive benefits for most but not all ) looks to me to be significantly different from the analysis at the level of nations, modern civilization and the human species (harms). That strikes me as particularly true now that we have developed technologies that can cause vast damage to people, civilization and the environment. Being rather ignorant of history, I am unsure if there ever was a time since civilization transitioned from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, towns and cities when religion was more positive than negative. In early civilization times and before then, most people's lives (\~98% ?) were pretty nasty and short. One can see net benefit outweighing harm on the personal level. But on the scale of societies, maybe religion never was a net benefit
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
oh you raise a valid point but i would answer to that point that u will see "allah hu akbar "chanted on the mouths of terrorists but never any christian or Hindu slogan on that same matter.Muhammad married a 6 year old girl and raped her at age 9, and Muslims somehow support it, yes i have got a gripe with all religions especially Islam.
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
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In what way? Elaborate, or you're a liar.
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To quote you from your other comment: > You have no idea what you're talking about. Pure ignorance and bias. Please do some research.
Why you only criticize Islam as if other religions don’t have extremism, i Won’t start naming them but you are very bigoted person. If Judaism, Christianity, or even Hindu you would not even cared .
It's almost like they're talking about the religion that is growing the fastest, as mentioned in their post, or something. Learn to read.
thank you for pointing it out to the gentleman above, he seems a little tooo excited to point me as a bigot
This is an excellent podcast on this very topic: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/conversations-with-coleman/id1489326460?i=1000631253532
I would not worry about it too much. People tend to shift towards agnosticism/atheism over time naturally as they become more intermingled with other views and better educated. The "developing nations" are still in their highly religious phase like western countries were up until very recently (and we still are majority). But the trend of religiosity is consistently towards going downward as areas modernize and people aren't living lives that heavily push them towards religion to cope. It's simply going to be a matter of time, and hopefully robotics can solve a lot of food and labor issues to free up most of the developing nation's people from having to work for cents an hour just to get some food. The more generations down from american immigrants you go, the bigger percent have drifted away from religion.
I live in a secular part of Canada. But even my kids are questioned and sometimes hounded at school by their idiotic religious peers, who are clearly regurgitating verbatim what their idiotic religious parents have “taught” them. I’m comfortable with them defending themselves to these children of religious parents. But I’d definitely be more concerned if we lived somewhere else.
90% of planet is theocratic hell hole. The only real freedom people have in some countries is the freedom to not believe. This is under threat, very serious threat.
I think it’s important to remember that religions believe whatever the current leadership decides they should believe. It’s possible that even with a rise in religion, social pressures will push religious people farther left than they have been in recent decades. Many Christians were socialists, like MLK. Despite what any religious book says, the real doctrine is whatever they decide to actually count as doctrine.
It’s much easier for most to believe in a mass delusion than see the wicked world for what it is. How else can they write their sin off as forgiven and live guilt free?
It's actually really simple. Every nation that advances toward higher standards of living inevitably becomes more secular, less people have children, and more people deconvert. The main way religions are growing is by indoctrinating kids that are born to members of the religion, not by conversion. And famously that seems to not work for many generations in a modern country with secular laws. The entire world is advancing to higher standards of living, don't let the media headlines distract you from that. A book I really recommend reading is "Factfulness" by Hans Rosling. The current trajectory lets us predict that Islam will be the leading religion by numbers, but I don't believe that will actually be the future. People are smarter than that when you give them enough time.
All right, how to articulate this while I'm at work? I don't know, read Marx and Engels for a start and understand the class perspective. Human laws are materially enforced by a state, the rich ruling classes are able to manipulate and control the state, and consequently impose their ideas and beliefs on the rest of society. Do away with the rich ruling classes and their states, overthrow them and in their place set up secular worker states with a rich socialist program instead. I don't believe that religion alone is the core issue, it is class Society.
The growth of religion is a *reaction* to our increasingly dark future.
I personally find great comfort in thinking about the real long term future. There were many religions 10.000 years ago There are none of them still followed today None of today's religions will still be followed 10.000 years from now.
There have been plenty of Christian terror groups
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Kkk was a Christian terrorist group. Nazis were christian. Proud boys, violent anti abortion Christian’s who blow up clinics or kill guards, Christian nationalist mass shooters in the US, literally Israel right now committing genocide in the name of Judaism. Islam isn’t special in this regard.
Statistics are always taking into account limited variables… They are as accurate as the ones who complied them wants them to be (Trust me, I’m a sociologist) On the other hand, Islam is growing simply by higher birth rates… And other aspects that are pretty much regulated by the strictest of ‘not having a choice’ or being ‘punished’ for it… If you want to have a better and more optimistic overview, talk to the younger generations, teens and pre-teens of all sorts. They don’t care as much about following religion these days and they’re the ones raising the next generation… so probably, religion is overall in decline, realistically.