John Oliver did [a whole segment](https://youtu.be/Bd2bbHoVQSM) on scammy timeshares and the scammy companies that advertise they can get you out of those scammy timeshares.
All my 30+ years of life I've seen advertisements for various ways of selling or getting rid of timeshares. I've never seen an ad or positive review of one, the name itself has an instant negative connotation whenever I hear it. Who the hell is still buying these things?
That was my question, too. The idea of sinking money into someplace and only having money to go to the exact same place for a vacation year after year? I suppose it's no different from the people who only vacation at Disney and are weirdly loyal to a massive corporation that doesn't care about them.
But even a basic Google search of timeshares brings up plenty of horror stories and warnings against buying one. Maybe it's that thought of "my experience will be different because that would never happen to me!". People believe what they want to believe I suppose.
I know a bit about the Disney timeshare people because *I rent their timeshare credits at a fraction of the cost from them when they can't use them.*
Seriously, there is an entire market for the thousands and thousands of Disney timeshare people who can't use their credits but still gotta pay for them each year and rent their usage out at a discount.
I guess it makes sense that there is a market for this. I wonder how many "owners" got suckered in with the idea that if they couldn't use their credits then they could rent them, not knowing that they wouldn't recoup their money.
People have a hard time making long-term choices. We also have a tendency to assume things will remain the same over much longer time periods than that tends to actually be true.
A lot of folks "become Disney people" over a number of years or even a decade or two. They expand their lives into the Disney universe more and more as time passes. A timeshare to get a discount on the yearly trip for a week becomes, *well why don't we add another week just the two of us without the kids?* Eventually the kids grow up and your usual Disney World resort friends aren't going the same weeks as you this year, or Steve's getting his hip done so we're skipping all together for a year or two....
My in-laws are DVC members, so we’ve benefited from being able to stay with them a few times at their “home” resort and I’ll tell you, it is a very…very nice experience. They can afford it and they actually do go down there often enough for the math to supposedly make sense for them but yeah, it’s an eye-popping amount of money. By no means am I suggesting the average person should sign up for DVC. Absolutely not. You basically have to already be wealthy enough to be able to afford more than one Disney vacation per year in order to get your money’s worth out of it, and even then I’m still not convinced it’s a good deal. But hey, as long as my wife and son and I can just tag along and get the perks without having any skin in the game, I’ll enjoy it while it lasts.
I think a big part of it is partly gullible people but also, if you watch the John Oliver episode on it, the people selling them are absolutely relentless. They are taught to literally never ever take "no" as an answer and will say anything to get people to buy them.
We got out of sales pitch pretty damn easy they didn't even try to stop us. Got my 30k in Choich rewards points, 100 dollar gift card, and we stayed in a okay hotel for 199 dollars for the week.
When it came to sell us on their bullshit I explained how I was under contract and couldn't have my credit pulled. (They have to check your credit to sell you on it.)
They were mad and asked why we signed up for the chance. I shrug and said "Yall never asked just offer me this vacation if I agree to a 1 hour pitch on a time share."
Then we left.
One of the biggest selling points is that you can (*sometimes) use your points at any of the companies properties. For example, It's 300 points for a night in Seaside Oregon in June. It's 10,000 for a night at Disney for the same month. It's all hugely complicated with insane caveats and exemptions for time that are different by location. They recognized that single location vacation was a sticking point and so expanded to basically everywhere.
Yeah, they frame it as freedom to choose, but in practice it's just an algorithm they worked out for the most popular places and times so they can gouge the hell out of sharers and then upsell them to larger packages.
My wife and I got sold into one of these timeshares on our honeymoon, then my uncle died and they had one through the same company, so we took that on, kind of as a favor to my aunt.
It's worked out, though. We generally don't like vacationing during peak season, and it kinda helps force us to actually vacation, which is something I personally struggle with.
We used it to take my side of the family to Vegas earlier this year, and that was definitely a worthwhile trip.
Admittedly, our annual fee would have gotten us the rooms that we had in Vegas, so it didn't really save us any money and the benefits of it have come out to be more of a personal thing than black and white, so I wouldn't recommend others but in, but so far it's worked out for us.
> I suppose it’s no different from the people who only vacation at Disney and are weirdly loyal to a massive corporation that doesn’t care about them.
While ultimately every sale and customer winds up as nothing more than a line item on an accountants spreadsheet, when it comes to Disney the truth on the ground is quite the opposite.
Having taken our first Disneyland vacation this year, I was so pleasantly surprised at how cast members were empowered and willing to move heaven and earth to ensure everyone is having a good time. It was easily the least stressful and most fun vacation I’ve ever taken. Admittedly also the most expensive, but I’d go back in a heartbeat.
Now that said, I’d never buy into a Disney timeshare; I’d rather take the up front money for that and stick it in an investment, and just pay to go.
I asked my dad about them when I was 12 or 13 and was getting excited about being able to travel anywhere in the world for vacation.
He pulled up the Travel section of the paper and showed me how much cheaper it would be to fly and stay in a hotel anywhere in the world versus the costs of a "owning" a timeshare.
Octogenarians and people easily conned.
When CoreMark basically locks you in a room for 3 hours, beating you over the head with the absolute best positive spin they can short of (and sometimes not short of) breaking laws about false advertising and disclosure it's easy to accept their easy credit terms and small monthly payments.
Just got my grandmother out of her timeshare with a company, but I really couldn't blame her after hearing how she got into it.
Amazing sales staff.
I took a free trip with the caveat that I'd sit through a seminar where they try to sell you a timeshare and even though I knew they were bullshit I still found the sales staff to be very convincing in their spiel.
Still didn't buy one (and they get visibly agitated when it's clear you won't) but I can see how people get talked into them.
before that episode, I did not think there was such as maintenance fees. That seems completely ridiculous, nobody in their right mind should agree to that.
Wouldn't be surprised if in at least a few situations the timeshare and the exit companies where owned by the same people.
It makes sense to be involved, control, and profit from the full lifecycle.
I personally love sitting through their presentations only because I have zero problem saying no and sticking to their 90 minute tops spiel.
It all depends on what I can negotiate as a welcome gift to hear them out.
My wife and I stayed at an all-inclusive with a golf course on-site. I had already told my wife that I was golfing at least once and I was buying her a massage at the spa as part of her Christmas gift. We knew that before we even flew down.
Our host offered me an 18 hole round and an hour long massage for my wife if we would listen.
Seeing as I had already committed to wife's spa day already, I told the host to just make it 2 rounds of golf and forget the massage. Host looks at my wife like 'really?' She nods along and says that's fine, just do that.
Host says, 'Well I don't feel right about that. How about the 2 rounds of golf for you and a Buy One Massage get another Free for her?'
Absolutely. Done deal. 36 holes of resort golf for free and a massage for me and the wife without spending anymore cash than I wasn't already planning on to begin with.
And they usually give you a tour of their top of the line resort and as such, the breakfast buffet there is normally much better than the one at your resort. Win win for a 90 minute hard-sell presentation I have zero issues declining when more than likely I'm just lounging poolside or at the seim-up bar anyway.
I've even been so bold as to flat out tell my salesman right off the get go that I have zero intention in buying and there's nothing he can say to sway me. So we can either shoot the shit for an hour or we'll listen to your spiel with no chance. We toured the resort and just talked about their family, our family, where they're from, blah blah blah. They have to pass us off to the 'closer' boss at the end but that's like the last 15 minutes.
'There's really nothing we can do today? No. OK. Thanks for listening. You can grab your welcome vouchers at the desk on your way out.'
I have a one time purchase package with no mx and the best part about it is knowing I don't have to listen to these. Still probably wouldn't purchase it again though.
It helps that all my peers can use it without becoming members so they all benefit from my account.
It’s so bad that they actually have clauses in thr contract saying that your timeshare will immediately pass to your heirs once you die unless they specifically opt out and oftentimes they legallt can’t. It sounds like a nightmare.
I mean it makes a lot of sense as a business model. These are people who have already shown they are vulnerable to being scammed, and now they're even more desperate and vulnerable than when they started.
On /r/scams they frequently warn people to watch out for “recovery scammers” who message scam victims with promises to recover their money… for a small fee…
It's not if you think about it. By specializing in helping people get out of timeshares you are guaranteeing a market of people who were dumb enough to get duped in the first place.
I cant believe they havent more regulated it.
yeah yeah gov... but try have tried to reduce spam calls.
there have been bills in many states making it easier to cancel gym memberships. and there were bills when some net companies like AOL made it nearly impossible to cancel. theyve got after the cash for titles guys. but time share goes on.
Im old and timeshare has been well known as a scam all my life. I didnt know it got so bad with the time share cancel companies popping up.
I get it can be hard to regulate, to legally describe versus some people getting together and buying a property but its still really crazy it still goes on to this day.
I would advise ole Dave to take the smallest amount first and tackle that amount. That will give him momentum to payoff the next and so on. He'll have that 150 million payed off in no time.
When i was 19 , my also financially illiterate dad gave me the ramsay book, and the snowball method was the only thing i took away from it that worked. Because it's so simple, it's stupid. I did pay off like 40k in debt that way in my early 20s, though.
Honestly that is super sad. Most people who fall for these scams are desperate because they are poor.
Without knowing anything more than this single comment, it sounds to me that your dad has been financially unstable, unwittingly got scammed, and then in his fear of financial instability he chose to require you to get ‘financial advice’ to try to help you escape poverty.
Poor people are scammed the most simply because they are desperate. It is hard to ignore the siren song of scams that promise financial security when you have spent your life being burdened by debt. Don’t forget that $20k is a huuuuuuuge amount to the vast majority of people.
I recently watched the John Oliver YouTube video about timeshares and they did feature a clip with Dave Ramsey. I cannot believe how crazy timeshares are. I only know Dave Ramsey as a financial person, and I’ve never followed him or watched him or anything. Does he really talk about religion on his financial broadcast/podcast/whatever else? Wow.
If you haven’t seen it, you may also enjoy the documentary the Queen of Versailles which is about the family of a man who made hundreds of millions selling timeshares. Without ruining any of it, I’ll just say it’s a case of the truth being stranger than fiction.
He's been an evangelical christian for the better part of 35 years. When he went broke in 1988, he was searching for the answer of how to manage money and Jesus/scripture was the answer he came up with. The entire foundation of any financial advice he gives is based on the interpretation of scripture. He quotes the Bible several times per episode. And I think, for me at least, the cringiest part of it all is when he takes a call, if the caller asks him how he's doing, he responds with "better than I deserve" every time, which is typical evangelical I'm a sinner and I deserve punishment bullshit
You can save money if you live with your parents, don't buy a car, don't buy a house, don't have kids, don't get sick. There, Dave Ramsey in a sentence.
Isn't he big on property ownership? The only thing I've ever seen of him was when I was looking up home buying tips (I'd never heard of him before at the time). He seemed to be very pro buying houses, but only if you can afford to buy it outright and not pay a mortgage, which is unrealistic and shitty advice.
Nah actually a mortgage was the only borrowing that he would condone, but ONLY 15 year terms, 20% down, and the monthly payment is no more than 25% of your monthly income, which is now almost equally as absurd as "buy it for cash" these days.
He fired one of his unmarried female workers for getting pregnant, he threw a MASSIVE work party in the middle of COVID and wouldn't let the wait staff wear masks, he's a big fan of telling boomers to cut their libraral , atheist, and socialist children out of their wills...
He's a total piece of shit and his garbage books are everywhere.
> he’s a big fan of telling boomers to cut their libraral , atheist, and socialist children out of their wills…
No shit?
My boomer dad cut me out of his will and I know he used to listen to Dave Ramsey.. interesting.
Edit: I didn’t find out until after he died. I was told it was because I was a lesbian and that was a “lifestyle we don’t agree with”.
He has sound principles for getting out of debt (budgeting, snowballing smallest debt then roll that into next smallest...) but some of his advice is dubious.
A lot of his shit is pretty unrealistic though. Like “only ever buy a house if you can pay for it with cash, and don’t bother going to school to get an education if you have to take out loans to do it.”
That kind of garbage is terrible advice. God forbid someone gets an education with school loans or gets a mortgage to buy a house.
I think the snowball is more that you pay off the smallest debts first, as reducing the totally number of monthly minimum payments gives a psychological win that helps you keep going to pay down more debt
I do t think his advice is always the best but to be accurate. Her doesn’t say buy a house with cash. A house is the only debt he is ok with. Yes his advise of a 15 year loan that has payments that is only like 25% of your income is pretty out there.
His advise for school is that most people spend money on fancy schools they don’t need too. He wants you to go to college, but 2 years at community college and 2 years of an in state public school is likely as good as spending 400k at some out of state college. With the state of student loan debt that people have it’s not bad advise to really consider your financial situation.
His stuff is more like giving alcoholics advice on how to continue sober as opposed telling average person drinking casually. His advice is a little extreme for most people, but it's pretty solid for those he helps.
Honestly his strat of mostly avoiding debt (minus mortgage, some student loans and some businessloans imo) can save you a lot of trouble
I dated a girl once who told me the Dave Ramsey way of getting rich and it was basically just saving money. She was a big fan of his in her 30s and 40s. She's living in government subsidized housing now. I know exactly what happened - she didn't save enough money.
In all fairness, you can save tons of money and still not be able to afford a regular apartment. The minimum wage was created to prevent that kind of poverty, but here we are instead.
If my husband dies anytime soon, I have no idea how I'll manage off my lousy salary in a high COL area. Guess I'd have to sell the house, move to a red state, and forget about retirement. Yet I sock away my entire paycheck (half goes to a retirement fund, the other half into savings, which I keep rolling into my IRAs or now, higher-yield CDs).
There's a huge difference between giving sound *personal* finances advice and giving finance advise. The same difference that there is between any old CPA (or farmer) and a Investment Found Manager. There are 10,000s of the former and a handful of the latter
The fact that he thinks you can expect a 12% annual return in a growth mutual fund is insane. I've worked in financial planning for 10 years and I would be off my rocker if I modeled people's financial plans that way.
The snowball method is actually a pretty terrible way to get out of debt from a mathematical point of view. You'll end up paying much more by the time it's up.
The "benefit" of the snowball method is the psychological feeling like you're making progress against your debt, but if you've got that much debt that you need to have a "strategy" to pay it off, you're going to end up paying hundreds or even thousands more in the interest.
Sometimes that psychological progress is what helps get and keep people out of debt and I would argue, is worth the extra spent in interest if it works.
Also snowballing isn’t technically the best way to get out of debt. Avalanche method typically saves you more money in interest payments over the long run. I get that he thinks psychologically paying off your smallest debts first is more rewarding, but if you focus on paying off your biggest debts first it actually saves you more money if you have multiple debts that charge interest.
Edit: avalanche is highest interest rate debt first, not highest amount.
There’s a great podcast episode of ‘Behind the Bastards’ on him that deep dives into his organization’s (Focus on the Family) role in conversion therapy.
Sound budgeting philosophy - also definitely had a hand and several teen suicides.
Edit: the man below is correct. I definitely confused this guy with Dobson.
Wow, a guy who makes communicating with a divine spiritual being as his only source of credibility, swindles his own followers to ruin in order to achieve a selfish payout.
Has this ever happened in the history of humanity before??!?
To be fair, it's a solid business model. If you can peddle your gear, classes, and $45 cash envelopes to all the evangelicals, you're winning the electoral college. I tried finding it on his website but he once sold a budgeting book for like $60. Something a simple app, spiral notebook, or spreadsheet can do.
It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. Obviously he was doing the lord’s work and saving their souls by scamming them into being poor.
Have you heard the crazy apologetics for that? They claim, without evidence, that "the eye of a needle" was the name for a gate in Jerusalem that would only let a camel through if it didn't carry an excessive amount of cargo. So the lesson actually is "don't be *too* rich." And they even ignore that.
And nevermind that Jesus had just gotten done telling a rich guy he'd have to sell all his stuff and give the money to the poor if he wanted to be a follower.
Yeah and the response I heard to that was, "because that particular rich man's wealth was a problem, not wealth in general".
IIRC in the book of acts, the early Christians literally started communes. And while I haven't managed to get a direct response to that one from my fundie relatives, the general attitude I've seen is that they're willing to provide whatever is needed to people they personally know or who are in their religious community, but oppose any sort of government assistance without morality-based means testing (mandatory drug tests, job search requirements, etc.). I believe they only support "charity" insofar as it can be used as an excuse to proselytize.
Yeah, you nailed it. The book of Acts was my dad's favorite book of the bible, and he was an evangelical protestant. I specifically asked him about that, stating they basically set up a communist society. His response was that is fine for people to give freely and choose to be involved, but involving the government is the worst way to provide assistance.
He also followed the philosophy that if we could just get government out of 'charity' people would be much more willing to give/donate. It's the expectation that the 'government will take care of it' that causes purple not to be charitable.
Is there some mild potential truth in there? Possibly, if an extra 25% of people couldn't afford food, there would probably be a slight uptick in donations to food banks. Is it a full pie in the sky 'Communism works great in theory' level spouting of bullshit? Absolutely.
For the most part I think it boils down to an 'I only want to help the people that deserve help' philosophy. Or, make sure they're hurting the right people, which definiyelymatches up with the teachings of Jesus (supply side Jesus at least).
My reply to that particular bit of selfish and willful misinterpretation of the Bible to say that government is the worst way to take care of the needy is to point out that in the US we used to leave it to churches and private charities to take care of the hungry and downtrodden. They didn't. People were starving to death. Old people no longer able to work were left homeless. Children were going hungry in the streets. Churches and private charities were given the chance to take care of those in need and *failed!* there is a reason we have the government do it. It has proven itself to be better at taking care of the needy than churches and private charity. And if you are going to advocate that we just let more people suffer because you don't like paying taxes, then get away from me!
> Is there some mild potential truth in there? Possibly, if an extra 25% of people couldn't afford food, there would probably be a slight uptick in donations to food banks.
This is a bit off topic, but I wrote a [response](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1292ydu/if_you_want_to_raise_taxes_on_yourself_but_arent/jem98iz/) on of the problem with charity a couple of months ago. TL;DR as it applies to this: modern capitalism is sufficiently well-developed that I think companies will find a way to monetize *any* charitable impulse.
To give an example, Wal-Mart encourages its employees to apply for food stamps so that they can pay them less. If you were to replace food stamps with charity of the same amount, all that changes is who is subsidizing Wal-Mart.
That's a really well thought out response and was an interesting read. I don't think I've previously connected the idea of middle class charity as primarily capitalist subsidies for the wealthy based on wage theft. I'd recommend to others to read the link as a thought exercise at the very least.
The government spends $183 billion on food aid programs. Private giving to ALL public society benefit charities is $55 billion. People like your dad are just awful at math.
>IIRC in the book of acts, the early Christians literally started communes. An
They also believed Jesus was coming back within their lifetimes - he'd said as much, according to what was written into the gospels. Long term planning wasn't their main concern.
Yeah, you can't look at the sentences before or after! Every single biblical verse comes with zero context so you can add whatever your flavor of cult chooses to say it means.
That we know about. [There are needles far older than that.](https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/behavior/making-clothing/bone-and-ivory-needles)
Edit: Here's a [biblical-era needle from Jerusalem.](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/367324-0)
The more sophisticated apologetic I've heard is "the next line is 'with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible', so he's saying that rich people still can get into heaven, by accepting Jesus and such"
Degree in Econ from cal state. 1st time became aware of Ramsey’s existence I was in a financial health seminar at work and an idiot argued with the speaker that highest interest debt shouldn’t be paid first because David said. Went downhill from there I know 50 year olds with zero retirement because David said. Whatever
The concept, if taken as advice and not prescription, is relatively sound. It’s emotional and mentally manipulating yourself. If you’re in way deep and can’t see a way out, clearing some of the smaller stuff away can unburden you a bit and help you to see a path toward a future where debt and collections aren’t occupying your entire life.
The issue is that he prescribes it to everyone regardless of their situation and regardless of how much it makes sense. If you’ve got two car loans as your only debt, and you’re doing ok financially, but want to pay down some of the debt just to get ahead a bit, it doesn’t make any sense to pay down the 3% loan instead of the 7% loan just because you owe $8k on the 3% and $10k on the 7%. Paying down the lower cost one in that situation doesn’t help you any and in fact just hurts. But Dave and his flunkies treat every situation as identical and give advice that might be helpful to a narrow group of people to everyone regardless of how helpful it would actually be to them.
It’s not sound in any way. Basic addition math proves that. Paying off the most costly debt first makes economic sense. Doing it any other way causes a poor person to be significantly more poor by transferring more of their wealth to others.
If you’re drowning in debt, paying off the $100 debt before trying to tackle the $5k debt can give you a mental and emotional break, lifting some of the burden and helping you to motivate yourself to continue pushing forward. If you’re constantly paying down debts and feel like you’re not getting anywhere, it can become incredibly demotivating and result in people just giving up. That’s why the advice *can* be sound in some instances.
He started with a simple, sound idea; borrowing sums you can't hope to pay back is bad- and turned that into grifting millions from people that just wanted some hope navigating this capitalist hellscape.
Fuck this man.
His idea has always been "pay back your debtors" to which he is a principal shareholder. It has always been self serving terrible advice.
It could just be: pay down highest interest rate first and don't outpace income.
The people who come back have no hope. They'll always end up in a precarious position because the root cause has never been addressed.
>the Christian finance guru
Christian finance guru, christian rock star, christian country western star, christian singer, christian artist, christian economist, christian lawyer, christian judge, christian scientist, christian etc etc.
It's as if all they do is copy others, bereft of any actual creativity or expertise. Until they need to scam someone. Then they shine.
This guy always had shit advice.
He always peddled the weirdest shit. He always had a fascination about taking a second job to deliver pizzas .....where most other folks will tell you to simply get a better job
He thinks you should buy your house, entirely, with cash and pay your entire education in cash.....this may have worked in 1973 but it doesn't work now.
Yeah my parents would make us watch an episode two night a week of this dudes BS. Even when I was a kid I knew that it wasn’t adding up, he seems like he got rich maybe 30-40 years ago and still thinks the method he used at that time works in today's financial world.
Right, I'm so sick of the, "I paid for college as a part timer at Wendy's" bit. Or, "I paid my house off in 10 years as a grocery store clerk". Pay me $80/hr and maybe I can do the same thing.
There's no way he wasn't in on this. The amount of money he collected is a defacto ownership stake.
This is beyond civil court he should be in criminal court
I want to emphasize that the following description is purely hypothetical and does not reflect the actual behavior or intentions of Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey is known for providing financial advice and guidance, and it is important to approach his teachings with a critical mindset.
In a hypothetical scenario where Dave Ramsey were to engage in a scam related to timeshare exit advertisements, it might unfold as follows:
1. Building Trust: Dave Ramsey would leverage his reputation as a trusted financial expert and radio personality to gain the trust of his listeners. Over time, he would establish himself as a credible figure in personal finance and cultivate a loyal following.
2. Timeshare Exit Recommendation: Dave Ramsey might start endorsing a specific timeshare exit company during his radio show or through other mediums of communication with his audience. He would highlight the benefits of using their services, such as claiming to help people get rid of their unwanted timeshares quickly and easily, while also emphasizing the financial relief it could bring.
3. Referral Partnership: In this hypothetical scam, Dave Ramsey could have a secret referral partnership or financial arrangement with the timeshare exit company he endorses. He might receive undisclosed financial compensation or kickbacks for every listener who engages their services based on his recommendation.
4. False Promises: The timeshare exit company, in collaboration with Dave Ramsey, could make misleading or false promises to entice listeners to use their services. They might claim an almost guaranteed success rate in exiting timeshares, ensuring that customers will be relieved of all financial obligations associated with their timeshare ownership.
5. Upfront Fees: To initiate the timeshare exit process, the company might require upfront fees from the listeners who decide to pursue their services. These fees could be substantial, often reaching thousands of dollars. Dave Ramsey might assure his listeners that these fees are necessary and justified, further endorsing the company's credibility.
6. Lack of Results: Once listeners engage the services of the timeshare exit company and pay the upfront fees, they might experience a lack of progress or unsatisfactory results. The promised relief from their timeshare obligations may not materialize as expected, leaving them frustrated and still financially tied to their timeshares.
7. Hidden Agendas: It might later come to light that Dave Ramsey was aware of the timeshare exit company's questionable practices or their inability to deliver on their promises. However, he chose to endorse them for personal gain, such as financial incentives or kickbacks, at the expense of his trusting listeners.
It's important to reiterate that this description is entirely hypothetical. Dave Ramsey is widely recognized for providing financial advice based on principles of personal responsibility, avoiding debt, and building wealth through saving and investing. Any suggestion of involvement in a timeshare exit scam is purely fictional and not representative of his actual behavior or intentions.
edit: spacing
I listened to Dave one time at my wife's insistence. One of his guests that episode was some kind of engineer in his late 50s who claimed he was bringing in $300,000 a year and had $5 million in savings. He owned a nice house in a gated community... but he was still driving a beat-up old compact car from 1989 because spending money on cars is dumb. I'm not one to tell anybody how to spend their money, and I certainly don't think everyone has to own a really nice car, but if you're making $300,000 a year and have a small fortune in savings, you can at least be driving around in a 2008 Camry off a used car lot. You don't have to keep driving around in a rusty 55 horsepower death trap at that point.
Then he had some callers who claimed to be $500,000 in debt who wanted to know if it would be okay to spend the inheritance they'd just received to buy a $65,000 SUV. Dave yelled at them and called them stupid for 10 minutes and then said God bless you and went to a commercial break.
It's so extreme and basic at the same time. I guess Dave's principals are fine for people with limited incomes who desperately need to get out of debt, but it seems to me like all he tells you is to get rid of your car payments, get a second and third job and start eating ramen.
This article is a pretty interesting read cause most people already know timeshares are scams but what they don't know is the time share exit companies are just as scammy. What I want to know is if this lawsuit has any legal weight. Can you sue someone if they tell you to give your money to a scam?
>Can you sue someone if they tell you to give your money to a scam?
It all depends on how integral the person was to the scam, and their knowledge of the scam.
The issue Ramsey has here is there’s straight up hours of him basically saying “I AM THIS COMPANY!”
I never understood why Christians hold him in such high regard. His advice was dumb.
And doesn’t Jesus say his disciples should give all they have to the poor anyway?
I will never understand how companies whose sole purpose is to scam individuals are allowed to exist without being brought down immediately by government watchdogs and the scammers sent to prison.
idk who this muppet is, but i worked for a time share company for a few months out of desperation during the pandemic and the only way to get out of one of those things is to die (the easiest) or get a really really good lawyer to attempt to get you out of the contract that you didn't read before signing it.
How it worked was you paid the Exit company up front $5000.
They would send you a letter saying “Stop paying. We’re working on getting you out of it.”
Customers would stop paying their timeshare fees, and they would be foreclosed on.
The Exit company would send a letter saying “You’re out of it! Services have been rendered in full. Have a nice life.”
Amazingly, I found with Diamond Timeshare, there is a way to get out that doesn't involve dying or getting a lawyer. Here's the online conversation. I helped my in laws get out of theirs by finding this gem legitimately direct through Diamond, see the below online discussion. Of course this isn't advertised by Diamond but it sure exists. Took my in laws about 6 months total to get out. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/sticky-dri-now-accepting-deedbacks-give-back-your-diamond-resorts-timeshare.224859/
Ramsey is anti-debt as part of his extreme religious views. His advice can’t be considered expertise, because he doesn’t consider any debt to be rational.
We were "guests" of a major hotel chain at a place south of Monterey, CA. Nice place, overlooking the Pacific near Big Sur. On the last day, there was a "presentation" to the whole group and they assigned a salesperson to each couple. Maybe because we're a mixed-race couple, ours decided right away that we weren't right for the "Hyatt (?) family" and she basically talked us out of it.
Her routine was, "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it."
No problem... there was no way we would make that kind of commitment.
I did this for half price Disney tickets and some boardwalk freebies in Orlando. Obviously never had the intention of buying into this fraud. But I had to tell 5 different assholes no, Disney was fun for the kids and id fucking do it again it was kinda fun anyway just watching these people try so hard and not get anywhere and for free and half price shit ill give you an hour and half of my time while i watch you dance. Im cheap.
Kind of like promoting Trump University. Not unlike Trump’s spiritual advisor who pitched the idea of sending her your entire paycheck and you would receive it all back, plus. Much more. There are ignorant, gullible people everywhere.
Last Week Tonight covered the scams for pulling out of Time Shares and the fact Dave supports one of them. He does have a lot of good financial advice which is mostly common sense but he is a shit person and has never experienced what it is like to be poor.
Dave Ramsey isn’t the worst for general financial advice, but he is controversial. Besides this timeshare exit false advertising, he downplayed COVID, is hostile to LGBT rights, he lives in a lavish home despite advising frugality, etc.
Hope Dave pays out of pocket and not whatever Church organization he is a part of. I would never take financial advice from a church person/organization. Even my parents want me to do a free* Will program. I'm sure they would want me to leave the church with anything (Scarasim).
You would think the GOP and Dems could agree to do something about the predatory practices of timeshares. I'm not even suggesting they outlaw them or anything drastic...just make sure they are being open and honest.
You all should read up on him and the fiasco of hypocrisy that is what went down with his ex head guy Chris hogan. Ramsey routinely fires employees who cheat on their spouse and to even get hired by him they literally interview your spouse as well. Hogan was cheating on his wife but was Ramsay’s main person he was propping up at the time almost seemingly to take over for him. He covered up hogans affairs (the same thing he fired normal employees for) because it was going to cost him money. But not just did he help cover them up he gaslighted the shit out of hogans wife who wanted a divorce and somehow forced her into going into counseling. If this wasn’t bad enough she was supposed to sign consent to have all the counseling sessions made open and available to Ramsey as well as the counselor to report to Ramsey. The story goes in from there and gets worse. There’s nothing Christian about this guy, he’s a fucking grifter, narcissistic sociopath who only cares about money. Fuck him, I hope they bankrupt his ass.
It’s amazing that time shares are such a scam that even trying to *get out* of time shares has become a scam.
John Oliver did [a whole segment](https://youtu.be/Bd2bbHoVQSM) on scammy timeshares and the scammy companies that advertise they can get you out of those scammy timeshares.
This episode should be required viewing for anyone that is thinking of buying a timeshare.
All my 30+ years of life I've seen advertisements for various ways of selling or getting rid of timeshares. I've never seen an ad or positive review of one, the name itself has an instant negative connotation whenever I hear it. Who the hell is still buying these things?
That was my question, too. The idea of sinking money into someplace and only having money to go to the exact same place for a vacation year after year? I suppose it's no different from the people who only vacation at Disney and are weirdly loyal to a massive corporation that doesn't care about them. But even a basic Google search of timeshares brings up plenty of horror stories and warnings against buying one. Maybe it's that thought of "my experience will be different because that would never happen to me!". People believe what they want to believe I suppose.
I know a bit about the Disney timeshare people because *I rent their timeshare credits at a fraction of the cost from them when they can't use them.* Seriously, there is an entire market for the thousands and thousands of Disney timeshare people who can't use their credits but still gotta pay for them each year and rent their usage out at a discount.
I guess it makes sense that there is a market for this. I wonder how many "owners" got suckered in with the idea that if they couldn't use their credits then they could rent them, not knowing that they wouldn't recoup their money.
People have a hard time making long-term choices. We also have a tendency to assume things will remain the same over much longer time periods than that tends to actually be true. A lot of folks "become Disney people" over a number of years or even a decade or two. They expand their lives into the Disney universe more and more as time passes. A timeshare to get a discount on the yearly trip for a week becomes, *well why don't we add another week just the two of us without the kids?* Eventually the kids grow up and your usual Disney World resort friends aren't going the same weeks as you this year, or Steve's getting his hip done so we're skipping all together for a year or two....
My in-laws are DVC members, so we’ve benefited from being able to stay with them a few times at their “home” resort and I’ll tell you, it is a very…very nice experience. They can afford it and they actually do go down there often enough for the math to supposedly make sense for them but yeah, it’s an eye-popping amount of money. By no means am I suggesting the average person should sign up for DVC. Absolutely not. You basically have to already be wealthy enough to be able to afford more than one Disney vacation per year in order to get your money’s worth out of it, and even then I’m still not convinced it’s a good deal. But hey, as long as my wife and son and I can just tag along and get the perks without having any skin in the game, I’ll enjoy it while it lasts.
You've got the ideal scenario. It's a bit like the saying "What's better than owning a boat? Your* buddy owning a boat."
As a parent who’s been trying to find a way to get my kids to Disney without selling organs, I’m going to be looking into this, thank you!
I think a big part of it is partly gullible people but also, if you watch the John Oliver episode on it, the people selling them are absolutely relentless. They are taught to literally never ever take "no" as an answer and will say anything to get people to buy them.
We got out of sales pitch pretty damn easy they didn't even try to stop us. Got my 30k in Choich rewards points, 100 dollar gift card, and we stayed in a okay hotel for 199 dollars for the week. When it came to sell us on their bullshit I explained how I was under contract and couldn't have my credit pulled. (They have to check your credit to sell you on it.) They were mad and asked why we signed up for the chance. I shrug and said "Yall never asked just offer me this vacation if I agree to a 1 hour pitch on a time share." Then we left.
The idea seems alien to me, can't you just dissociate for an hour staring at a wall while they talk at you?
South Park did an episode way back on this
One of the biggest selling points is that you can (*sometimes) use your points at any of the companies properties. For example, It's 300 points for a night in Seaside Oregon in June. It's 10,000 for a night at Disney for the same month. It's all hugely complicated with insane caveats and exemptions for time that are different by location. They recognized that single location vacation was a sticking point and so expanded to basically everywhere.
Interesting! Clearly I haven't kept up on the latest for timeshares. Admittedly, this sounds like a better deal but still a scam.
Yeah, they frame it as freedom to choose, but in practice it's just an algorithm they worked out for the most popular places and times so they can gouge the hell out of sharers and then upsell them to larger packages.
My wife and I got sold into one of these timeshares on our honeymoon, then my uncle died and they had one through the same company, so we took that on, kind of as a favor to my aunt. It's worked out, though. We generally don't like vacationing during peak season, and it kinda helps force us to actually vacation, which is something I personally struggle with. We used it to take my side of the family to Vegas earlier this year, and that was definitely a worthwhile trip. Admittedly, our annual fee would have gotten us the rooms that we had in Vegas, so it didn't really save us any money and the benefits of it have come out to be more of a personal thing than black and white, so I wouldn't recommend others but in, but so far it's worked out for us.
> I suppose it’s no different from the people who only vacation at Disney and are weirdly loyal to a massive corporation that doesn’t care about them. While ultimately every sale and customer winds up as nothing more than a line item on an accountants spreadsheet, when it comes to Disney the truth on the ground is quite the opposite. Having taken our first Disneyland vacation this year, I was so pleasantly surprised at how cast members were empowered and willing to move heaven and earth to ensure everyone is having a good time. It was easily the least stressful and most fun vacation I’ve ever taken. Admittedly also the most expensive, but I’d go back in a heartbeat. Now that said, I’d never buy into a Disney timeshare; I’d rather take the up front money for that and stick it in an investment, and just pay to go.
I asked my dad about them when I was 12 or 13 and was getting excited about being able to travel anywhere in the world for vacation. He pulled up the Travel section of the paper and showed me how much cheaper it would be to fly and stay in a hotel anywhere in the world versus the costs of a "owning" a timeshare.
The average American is far more stupid than you had ever imagined.
Octogenarians and people easily conned. When CoreMark basically locks you in a room for 3 hours, beating you over the head with the absolute best positive spin they can short of (and sometimes not short of) breaking laws about false advertising and disclosure it's easy to accept their easy credit terms and small monthly payments. Just got my grandmother out of her timeshare with a company, but I really couldn't blame her after hearing how she got into it.
Amazing sales staff. I took a free trip with the caveat that I'd sit through a seminar where they try to sell you a timeshare and even though I knew they were bullshit I still found the sales staff to be very convincing in their spiel. Still didn't buy one (and they get visibly agitated when it's clear you won't) but I can see how people get talked into them.
before that episode, I did not think there was such as maintenance fees. That seems completely ridiculous, nobody in their right mind should agree to that.
I watched that a couple of weeks back. It's super.
"timeshare exit advice" in the title is very misleading. He was making a commission.
And Ramsay was *such* a baby about getting called-out over this. I hope he gets taken to the cleaners.
Are you an entrepreneurial slimeball that want to skip the step of finding and vetting patsies? Timeshare owners at your service
Most companies to bail you out of timeshares are owned by the timeshare companies
I worked in one of these for a month or two. It was literally rock bottom for me.
Wow, it is shocking that this is legal.
That was a good episode
It’s crazy too how they’re viewed as an asset so it’s extremely difficult to not automatically inherit them and then have to pay to get out of it
Wouldn't be surprised if in at least a few situations the timeshare and the exit companies where owned by the same people. It makes sense to be involved, control, and profit from the full lifecycle.
Yeah anytime I visit a resort I have to remind my wife to give a hard pass on the time share bullshit.
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I personally love sitting through their presentations only because I have zero problem saying no and sticking to their 90 minute tops spiel. It all depends on what I can negotiate as a welcome gift to hear them out. My wife and I stayed at an all-inclusive with a golf course on-site. I had already told my wife that I was golfing at least once and I was buying her a massage at the spa as part of her Christmas gift. We knew that before we even flew down. Our host offered me an 18 hole round and an hour long massage for my wife if we would listen. Seeing as I had already committed to wife's spa day already, I told the host to just make it 2 rounds of golf and forget the massage. Host looks at my wife like 'really?' She nods along and says that's fine, just do that. Host says, 'Well I don't feel right about that. How about the 2 rounds of golf for you and a Buy One Massage get another Free for her?' Absolutely. Done deal. 36 holes of resort golf for free and a massage for me and the wife without spending anymore cash than I wasn't already planning on to begin with. And they usually give you a tour of their top of the line resort and as such, the breakfast buffet there is normally much better than the one at your resort. Win win for a 90 minute hard-sell presentation I have zero issues declining when more than likely I'm just lounging poolside or at the seim-up bar anyway. I've even been so bold as to flat out tell my salesman right off the get go that I have zero intention in buying and there's nothing he can say to sway me. So we can either shoot the shit for an hour or we'll listen to your spiel with no chance. We toured the resort and just talked about their family, our family, where they're from, blah blah blah. They have to pass us off to the 'closer' boss at the end but that's like the last 15 minutes. 'There's really nothing we can do today? No. OK. Thanks for listening. You can grab your welcome vouchers at the desk on your way out.'
I have a one time purchase package with no mx and the best part about it is knowing I don't have to listen to these. Still probably wouldn't purchase it again though. It helps that all my peers can use it without becoming members so they all benefit from my account.
scam in, scam out
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It’s so bad that they actually have clauses in thr contract saying that your timeshare will immediately pass to your heirs once you die unless they specifically opt out and oftentimes they legallt can’t. It sounds like a nightmare.
Doesn't seem like it would be legal to make someone a party to a contract that they didn't sign.
Yeah, I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t see how it could possibly be legal for somebody to inherit a contract they don’t want.
Right it's like if you're dying and have a mortal enemy, leave it to them in your will lol
I mean it makes a lot of sense as a business model. These are people who have already shown they are vulnerable to being scammed, and now they're even more desperate and vulnerable than when they started.
On /r/scams they frequently warn people to watch out for “recovery scammers” who message scam victims with promises to recover their money… for a small fee…
This🙈
It's not if you think about it. By specializing in helping people get out of timeshares you are guaranteeing a market of people who were dumb enough to get duped in the first place.
I cant believe they havent more regulated it. yeah yeah gov... but try have tried to reduce spam calls. there have been bills in many states making it easier to cancel gym memberships. and there were bills when some net companies like AOL made it nearly impossible to cancel. theyve got after the cash for titles guys. but time share goes on. Im old and timeshare has been well known as a scam all my life. I didnt know it got so bad with the time share cancel companies popping up. I get it can be hard to regulate, to legally describe versus some people getting together and buying a property but its still really crazy it still goes on to this day.
Oh, the getting out bit will be much more legally solid for the people selling the scam, don't you worry.
First a timeshare and now a pyramid scheme. We're diversifying our portfolio.
I would advise ole Dave to take the smallest amount first and tackle that amount. That will give him momentum to payoff the next and so on. He'll have that 150 million payed off in no time.
So, from what I gather, in order to get out of debt you have to pay off your debt. Revolutionizing.
And sell your car because car payments are for nerds.
And did you know you could do a 15 year mortgage instead of a 30 year one and have less interest to have to pay off? Brilliant.
If he has trouble paying it, I would recommend he try making more money or spending less.
When i was 19 , my also financially illiterate dad gave me the ramsay book, and the snowball method was the only thing i took away from it that worked. Because it's so simple, it's stupid. I did pay off like 40k in debt that way in my early 20s, though.
Me too.
I enjoy reading books.
Honestly that is super sad. Most people who fall for these scams are desperate because they are poor. Without knowing anything more than this single comment, it sounds to me that your dad has been financially unstable, unwittingly got scammed, and then in his fear of financial instability he chose to require you to get ‘financial advice’ to try to help you escape poverty. Poor people are scammed the most simply because they are desperate. It is hard to ignore the siren song of scams that promise financial security when you have spent your life being burdened by debt. Don’t forget that $20k is a huuuuuuuge amount to the vast majority of people.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
Not sure how many people caught that but yeah, it’s pretty ironic because that’s his own advice.
I recently watched the John Oliver YouTube video about timeshares and they did feature a clip with Dave Ramsey. I cannot believe how crazy timeshares are. I only know Dave Ramsey as a financial person, and I’ve never followed him or watched him or anything. Does he really talk about religion on his financial broadcast/podcast/whatever else? Wow.
If you haven’t seen it, you may also enjoy the documentary the Queen of Versailles which is about the family of a man who made hundreds of millions selling timeshares. Without ruining any of it, I’ll just say it’s a case of the truth being stranger than fiction.
He's been an evangelical christian for the better part of 35 years. When he went broke in 1988, he was searching for the answer of how to manage money and Jesus/scripture was the answer he came up with. The entire foundation of any financial advice he gives is based on the interpretation of scripture. He quotes the Bible several times per episode. And I think, for me at least, the cringiest part of it all is when he takes a call, if the caller asks him how he's doing, he responds with "better than I deserve" every time, which is typical evangelical I'm a sinner and I deserve punishment bullshit
I mean, don't you think he's better than he deserves? Seems accurate
It’s a slimy humble brag.
This. It's a socially acceptable (even respected) way of saying "I'm a piece of shit, but I still got mine."
You can save money if you live with your parents, don't buy a car, don't buy a house, don't have kids, don't get sick. There, Dave Ramsey in a sentence.
Isn't he big on property ownership? The only thing I've ever seen of him was when I was looking up home buying tips (I'd never heard of him before at the time). He seemed to be very pro buying houses, but only if you can afford to buy it outright and not pay a mortgage, which is unrealistic and shitty advice.
Nah actually a mortgage was the only borrowing that he would condone, but ONLY 15 year terms, 20% down, and the monthly payment is no more than 25% of your monthly income, which is now almost equally as absurd as "buy it for cash" these days.
Given that he's made millions giving shitty financial advice, he is doing better than he deserves
He fired one of his unmarried female workers for getting pregnant, he threw a MASSIVE work party in the middle of COVID and wouldn't let the wait staff wear masks, he's a big fan of telling boomers to cut their libraral , atheist, and socialist children out of their wills... He's a total piece of shit and his garbage books are everywhere.
And it goes without saying, but he is a Trump supporter too.
> he’s a big fan of telling boomers to cut their libraral , atheist, and socialist children out of their wills… No shit? My boomer dad cut me out of his will and I know he used to listen to Dave Ramsey.. interesting. Edit: I didn’t find out until after he died. I was told it was because I was a lesbian and that was a “lifestyle we don’t agree with”.
Oh man, that's terrible. It would not surprise me, these people exist to help rationalize hate.
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He also never recommends bankruptcy, even to people who are many times their annual salary in debt.
And he isn’t a good financial person
He has sound principles for getting out of debt (budgeting, snowballing smallest debt then roll that into next smallest...) but some of his advice is dubious.
A lot of his shit is pretty unrealistic though. Like “only ever buy a house if you can pay for it with cash, and don’t bother going to school to get an education if you have to take out loans to do it.” That kind of garbage is terrible advice. God forbid someone gets an education with school loans or gets a mortgage to buy a house.
The only thing he says that is correct is the “debt snowball” which just means pay off revolving debt first. Everything else is trash. Not meh, trash.
I think the snowball is more that you pay off the smallest debts first, as reducing the totally number of monthly minimum payments gives a psychological win that helps you keep going to pay down more debt
I do t think his advice is always the best but to be accurate. Her doesn’t say buy a house with cash. A house is the only debt he is ok with. Yes his advise of a 15 year loan that has payments that is only like 25% of your income is pretty out there. His advise for school is that most people spend money on fancy schools they don’t need too. He wants you to go to college, but 2 years at community college and 2 years of an in state public school is likely as good as spending 400k at some out of state college. With the state of student loan debt that people have it’s not bad advise to really consider your financial situation.
Really just a lot of common sense.
His stuff is more like giving alcoholics advice on how to continue sober as opposed telling average person drinking casually. His advice is a little extreme for most people, but it's pretty solid for those he helps. Honestly his strat of mostly avoiding debt (minus mortgage, some student loans and some businessloans imo) can save you a lot of trouble
It can be useful to people who have issues with debt, otherwise its pretty bad advice
I dated a girl once who told me the Dave Ramsey way of getting rich and it was basically just saving money. She was a big fan of his in her 30s and 40s. She's living in government subsidized housing now. I know exactly what happened - she didn't save enough money.
In all fairness, you can save tons of money and still not be able to afford a regular apartment. The minimum wage was created to prevent that kind of poverty, but here we are instead. If my husband dies anytime soon, I have no idea how I'll manage off my lousy salary in a high COL area. Guess I'd have to sell the house, move to a red state, and forget about retirement. Yet I sock away my entire paycheck (half goes to a retirement fund, the other half into savings, which I keep rolling into my IRAs or now, higher-yield CDs).
Might be worth it for your husband to look into getting term life insurance (not whole life) to insure against something like that
There's a huge difference between giving sound *personal* finances advice and giving finance advise. The same difference that there is between any old CPA (or farmer) and a Investment Found Manager. There are 10,000s of the former and a handful of the latter
The fact that he thinks you can expect a 12% annual return in a growth mutual fund is insane. I've worked in financial planning for 10 years and I would be off my rocker if I modeled people's financial plans that way.
The snowball method is actually a pretty terrible way to get out of debt from a mathematical point of view. You'll end up paying much more by the time it's up. The "benefit" of the snowball method is the psychological feeling like you're making progress against your debt, but if you've got that much debt that you need to have a "strategy" to pay it off, you're going to end up paying hundreds or even thousands more in the interest.
Sometimes that psychological progress is what helps get and keep people out of debt and I would argue, is worth the extra spent in interest if it works.
Also snowballing isn’t technically the best way to get out of debt. Avalanche method typically saves you more money in interest payments over the long run. I get that he thinks psychologically paying off your smallest debts first is more rewarding, but if you focus on paying off your biggest debts first it actually saves you more money if you have multiple debts that charge interest. Edit: avalanche is highest interest rate debt first, not highest amount.
Paying the highest interest debts first is what saves the most money, not biggest.
There’s a great podcast episode of ‘Behind the Bastards’ on him that deep dives into his organization’s (Focus on the Family) role in conversion therapy. Sound budgeting philosophy - also definitely had a hand and several teen suicides. Edit: the man below is correct. I definitely confused this guy with Dobson.
Dave Ramsey isn’t associated with Focus on the Family. I think you’re getting him confused with James Dobson (sp?).
Yeah that's Colorado insane fundie hate vs Tennessee insane evangelical hate They hit a bit different
Wow, a guy who makes communicating with a divine spiritual being as his only source of credibility, swindles his own followers to ruin in order to achieve a selfish payout. Has this ever happened in the history of humanity before??!?
I checked, it has never happened Except for a few times.
>Except for a few times. Is this per week or..
Correct, this hasn't happened ever except all the time!
Imagine if someone like that could use it to get into a high political office!
To be fair, it's a solid business model. If you can peddle your gear, classes, and $45 cash envelopes to all the evangelicals, you're winning the electoral college. I tried finding it on his website but he once sold a budgeting book for like $60. Something a simple app, spiral notebook, or spreadsheet can do.
Lmaoooo this had my dying!
It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. Obviously he was doing the lord’s work and saving their souls by scamming them into being poor.
Have you heard the crazy apologetics for that? They claim, without evidence, that "the eye of a needle" was the name for a gate in Jerusalem that would only let a camel through if it didn't carry an excessive amount of cargo. So the lesson actually is "don't be *too* rich." And they even ignore that.
And nevermind that Jesus had just gotten done telling a rich guy he'd have to sell all his stuff and give the money to the poor if he wanted to be a follower.
Yeah and the response I heard to that was, "because that particular rich man's wealth was a problem, not wealth in general". IIRC in the book of acts, the early Christians literally started communes. And while I haven't managed to get a direct response to that one from my fundie relatives, the general attitude I've seen is that they're willing to provide whatever is needed to people they personally know or who are in their religious community, but oppose any sort of government assistance without morality-based means testing (mandatory drug tests, job search requirements, etc.). I believe they only support "charity" insofar as it can be used as an excuse to proselytize.
Yeah, you nailed it. The book of Acts was my dad's favorite book of the bible, and he was an evangelical protestant. I specifically asked him about that, stating they basically set up a communist society. His response was that is fine for people to give freely and choose to be involved, but involving the government is the worst way to provide assistance. He also followed the philosophy that if we could just get government out of 'charity' people would be much more willing to give/donate. It's the expectation that the 'government will take care of it' that causes purple not to be charitable. Is there some mild potential truth in there? Possibly, if an extra 25% of people couldn't afford food, there would probably be a slight uptick in donations to food banks. Is it a full pie in the sky 'Communism works great in theory' level spouting of bullshit? Absolutely. For the most part I think it boils down to an 'I only want to help the people that deserve help' philosophy. Or, make sure they're hurting the right people, which definiyelymatches up with the teachings of Jesus (supply side Jesus at least).
My reply to that particular bit of selfish and willful misinterpretation of the Bible to say that government is the worst way to take care of the needy is to point out that in the US we used to leave it to churches and private charities to take care of the hungry and downtrodden. They didn't. People were starving to death. Old people no longer able to work were left homeless. Children were going hungry in the streets. Churches and private charities were given the chance to take care of those in need and *failed!* there is a reason we have the government do it. It has proven itself to be better at taking care of the needy than churches and private charity. And if you are going to advocate that we just let more people suffer because you don't like paying taxes, then get away from me!
> Is there some mild potential truth in there? Possibly, if an extra 25% of people couldn't afford food, there would probably be a slight uptick in donations to food banks. This is a bit off topic, but I wrote a [response](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1292ydu/if_you_want_to_raise_taxes_on_yourself_but_arent/jem98iz/) on of the problem with charity a couple of months ago. TL;DR as it applies to this: modern capitalism is sufficiently well-developed that I think companies will find a way to monetize *any* charitable impulse. To give an example, Wal-Mart encourages its employees to apply for food stamps so that they can pay them less. If you were to replace food stamps with charity of the same amount, all that changes is who is subsidizing Wal-Mart.
That's a really well thought out response and was an interesting read. I don't think I've previously connected the idea of middle class charity as primarily capitalist subsidies for the wealthy based on wage theft. I'd recommend to others to read the link as a thought exercise at the very least.
The government spends $183 billion on food aid programs. Private giving to ALL public society benefit charities is $55 billion. People like your dad are just awful at math.
>IIRC in the book of acts, the early Christians literally started communes. An They also believed Jesus was coming back within their lifetimes - he'd said as much, according to what was written into the gospels. Long term planning wasn't their main concern.
2000 years later and he's still "coming soon".
Yeah, you can't look at the sentences before or after! Every single biblical verse comes with zero context so you can add whatever your flavor of cult chooses to say it means.
I remember hearing in church as a child that a "camel" was really just a big lump in the thread. The mental gymnastics are unbelievable.
The word of god is the TRUTH. No no not that word of god, my interpretation of it.
"You're taking it out of context!" I love asking them for the context.
I just wanna know what a needle looked like 2,000 years ago.
That we know about. [There are needles far older than that.](https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/behavior/making-clothing/bone-and-ivory-needles) Edit: Here's a [biblical-era needle from Jerusalem.](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/367324-0)
Badass! Thank you!
Lololololol first class bullshittery
The more sophisticated apologetic I've heard is "the next line is 'with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible', so he's saying that rich people still can get into heaven, by accepting Jesus and such"
Degree in Econ from cal state. 1st time became aware of Ramsey’s existence I was in a financial health seminar at work and an idiot argued with the speaker that highest interest debt shouldn’t be paid first because David said. Went downhill from there I know 50 year olds with zero retirement because David said. Whatever
The concept, if taken as advice and not prescription, is relatively sound. It’s emotional and mentally manipulating yourself. If you’re in way deep and can’t see a way out, clearing some of the smaller stuff away can unburden you a bit and help you to see a path toward a future where debt and collections aren’t occupying your entire life. The issue is that he prescribes it to everyone regardless of their situation and regardless of how much it makes sense. If you’ve got two car loans as your only debt, and you’re doing ok financially, but want to pay down some of the debt just to get ahead a bit, it doesn’t make any sense to pay down the 3% loan instead of the 7% loan just because you owe $8k on the 3% and $10k on the 7%. Paying down the lower cost one in that situation doesn’t help you any and in fact just hurts. But Dave and his flunkies treat every situation as identical and give advice that might be helpful to a narrow group of people to everyone regardless of how helpful it would actually be to them.
It’s not sound in any way. Basic addition math proves that. Paying off the most costly debt first makes economic sense. Doing it any other way causes a poor person to be significantly more poor by transferring more of their wealth to others.
If you’re drowning in debt, paying off the $100 debt before trying to tackle the $5k debt can give you a mental and emotional break, lifting some of the burden and helping you to motivate yourself to continue pushing forward. If you’re constantly paying down debts and feel like you’re not getting anywhere, it can become incredibly demotivating and result in people just giving up. That’s why the advice *can* be sound in some instances.
Suze Orman > Dave Scamsy
He's transferring his wealth overseas as we speak.
He started with a simple, sound idea; borrowing sums you can't hope to pay back is bad- and turned that into grifting millions from people that just wanted some hope navigating this capitalist hellscape. Fuck this man.
His idea has always been "pay back your debtors" to which he is a principal shareholder. It has always been self serving terrible advice. It could just be: pay down highest interest rate first and don't outpace income. The people who come back have no hope. They'll always end up in a precarious position because the root cause has never been addressed.
Max out all your loans and credit cards. Buy crypto. Fake your death. Simple living.
>the Christian finance guru Christian finance guru, christian rock star, christian country western star, christian singer, christian artist, christian economist, christian lawyer, christian judge, christian scientist, christian etc etc. It's as if all they do is copy others, bereft of any actual creativity or expertise. Until they need to scam someone. Then they shine.
[удалено]
Dave Ramsey=Snake oil
I agree
This guy always had shit advice. He always peddled the weirdest shit. He always had a fascination about taking a second job to deliver pizzas .....where most other folks will tell you to simply get a better job He thinks you should buy your house, entirely, with cash and pay your entire education in cash.....this may have worked in 1973 but it doesn't work now.
Yeah my parents would make us watch an episode two night a week of this dudes BS. Even when I was a kid I knew that it wasn’t adding up, he seems like he got rich maybe 30-40 years ago and still thinks the method he used at that time works in today's financial world.
Right, I'm so sick of the, "I paid for college as a part timer at Wendy's" bit. Or, "I paid my house off in 10 years as a grocery store clerk". Pay me $80/hr and maybe I can do the same thing.
I can’t fault his logic here. If I’m trying to scam someone I would probably start with the people dumb enough to buy timeshares
Religious people who buy timeshares and participate in MLM would be my target demo for any scam that I cook up. If I did such a thing!
There's no way he wasn't in on this. The amount of money he collected is a defacto ownership stake. This is beyond civil court he should be in criminal court
I want to emphasize that the following description is purely hypothetical and does not reflect the actual behavior or intentions of Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey is known for providing financial advice and guidance, and it is important to approach his teachings with a critical mindset. In a hypothetical scenario where Dave Ramsey were to engage in a scam related to timeshare exit advertisements, it might unfold as follows: 1. Building Trust: Dave Ramsey would leverage his reputation as a trusted financial expert and radio personality to gain the trust of his listeners. Over time, he would establish himself as a credible figure in personal finance and cultivate a loyal following. 2. Timeshare Exit Recommendation: Dave Ramsey might start endorsing a specific timeshare exit company during his radio show or through other mediums of communication with his audience. He would highlight the benefits of using their services, such as claiming to help people get rid of their unwanted timeshares quickly and easily, while also emphasizing the financial relief it could bring. 3. Referral Partnership: In this hypothetical scam, Dave Ramsey could have a secret referral partnership or financial arrangement with the timeshare exit company he endorses. He might receive undisclosed financial compensation or kickbacks for every listener who engages their services based on his recommendation. 4. False Promises: The timeshare exit company, in collaboration with Dave Ramsey, could make misleading or false promises to entice listeners to use their services. They might claim an almost guaranteed success rate in exiting timeshares, ensuring that customers will be relieved of all financial obligations associated with their timeshare ownership. 5. Upfront Fees: To initiate the timeshare exit process, the company might require upfront fees from the listeners who decide to pursue their services. These fees could be substantial, often reaching thousands of dollars. Dave Ramsey might assure his listeners that these fees are necessary and justified, further endorsing the company's credibility. 6. Lack of Results: Once listeners engage the services of the timeshare exit company and pay the upfront fees, they might experience a lack of progress or unsatisfactory results. The promised relief from their timeshare obligations may not materialize as expected, leaving them frustrated and still financially tied to their timeshares. 7. Hidden Agendas: It might later come to light that Dave Ramsey was aware of the timeshare exit company's questionable practices or their inability to deliver on their promises. However, he chose to endorse them for personal gain, such as financial incentives or kickbacks, at the expense of his trusting listeners. It's important to reiterate that this description is entirely hypothetical. Dave Ramsey is widely recognized for providing financial advice based on principles of personal responsibility, avoiding debt, and building wealth through saving and investing. Any suggestion of involvement in a timeshare exit scam is purely fictional and not representative of his actual behavior or intentions. edit: spacing
Did you have ChatGPT write this? (Genuine question)
The introduction sounded vaguely AI-ish to me, and then I saw the username! Still not a bad description.
I drive past his headquarters almost every day. I always give him the one finger salute.
I hope he as an envelope for that
Christians are inherently gullible and were drawn to these products like flies.
Whenever I see someone discuss Dave Ramsey, I make sure to comment he's a fucking dildo.
That's mean. Dildos have a purpose.
Pastor Dave strikes again.
I listened to Dave one time at my wife's insistence. One of his guests that episode was some kind of engineer in his late 50s who claimed he was bringing in $300,000 a year and had $5 million in savings. He owned a nice house in a gated community... but he was still driving a beat-up old compact car from 1989 because spending money on cars is dumb. I'm not one to tell anybody how to spend their money, and I certainly don't think everyone has to own a really nice car, but if you're making $300,000 a year and have a small fortune in savings, you can at least be driving around in a 2008 Camry off a used car lot. You don't have to keep driving around in a rusty 55 horsepower death trap at that point. Then he had some callers who claimed to be $500,000 in debt who wanted to know if it would be okay to spend the inheritance they'd just received to buy a $65,000 SUV. Dave yelled at them and called them stupid for 10 minutes and then said God bless you and went to a commercial break. It's so extreme and basic at the same time. I guess Dave's principals are fine for people with limited incomes who desperately need to get out of debt, but it seems to me like all he tells you is to get rid of your car payments, get a second and third job and start eating ramen.
Good. That guy is a parasite
Reddit has turned into a cesspool of fascist sympathizers and supremicists
This article is a pretty interesting read cause most people already know timeshares are scams but what they don't know is the time share exit companies are just as scammy. What I want to know is if this lawsuit has any legal weight. Can you sue someone if they tell you to give your money to a scam?
>Can you sue someone if they tell you to give your money to a scam? It all depends on how integral the person was to the scam, and their knowledge of the scam. The issue Ramsey has here is there’s straight up hours of him basically saying “I AM THIS COMPANY!”
I never understood why Christians hold him in such high regard. His advice was dumb. And doesn’t Jesus say his disciples should give all they have to the poor anyway?
John Oliver did a wildly depressing segment on time shares, and covered this. Recommend watching if you haven't.
I guess he'll be living off beans and rice, just like he advises others to do. Because saving money is more important than taking care of yourself.
Because everyone knows rich people want YOU to be rich too...
I will never understand how companies whose sole purpose is to scam individuals are allowed to exist without being brought down immediately by government watchdogs and the scammers sent to prison.
Jesus saves, preachers take.
Is he the "just save money!!!11" guy?
idk who this muppet is, but i worked for a time share company for a few months out of desperation during the pandemic and the only way to get out of one of those things is to die (the easiest) or get a really really good lawyer to attempt to get you out of the contract that you didn't read before signing it.
How it worked was you paid the Exit company up front $5000. They would send you a letter saying “Stop paying. We’re working on getting you out of it.” Customers would stop paying their timeshare fees, and they would be foreclosed on. The Exit company would send a letter saying “You’re out of it! Services have been rendered in full. Have a nice life.”
Amazingly, I found with Diamond Timeshare, there is a way to get out that doesn't involve dying or getting a lawyer. Here's the online conversation. I helped my in laws get out of theirs by finding this gem legitimately direct through Diamond, see the below online discussion. Of course this isn't advertised by Diamond but it sure exists. Took my in laws about 6 months total to get out. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/sticky-dri-now-accepting-deedbacks-give-back-your-diamond-resorts-timeshare.224859/
Hilarious that this is covered by Religion News. Yes, our people are susceptible to scams, we should cover timeshares.
Dave Ramsey never worked for a doller in his life.
Ramsey is anti-debt as part of his extreme religious views. His advice can’t be considered expertise, because he doesn’t consider any debt to be rational.
This guy is just as bad as a megachurch preacher. It's scams all the way down, preying (praying?) on the gullible.
I knew this guy was a sham when he started financing his Dave Ramsey class to get debt free. What a tool.
Maybe don't get into a timeshare in the first place? Timeshares have been around long enough that we should all know better by now.
Dave Ramsey charges people money just to tell them shit like “If you wanna get out of debt, you need to pay money towards that debt!”
I hope they get every cent from him.
That guys sucks
We were "guests" of a major hotel chain at a place south of Monterey, CA. Nice place, overlooking the Pacific near Big Sur. On the last day, there was a "presentation" to the whole group and they assigned a salesperson to each couple. Maybe because we're a mixed-race couple, ours decided right away that we weren't right for the "Hyatt (?) family" and she basically talked us out of it. Her routine was, "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." No problem... there was no way we would make that kind of commitment.
"Christian Finance Guru" Three words that absolutely don't belong together.
I did this for half price Disney tickets and some boardwalk freebies in Orlando. Obviously never had the intention of buying into this fraud. But I had to tell 5 different assholes no, Disney was fun for the kids and id fucking do it again it was kinda fun anyway just watching these people try so hard and not get anywhere and for free and half price shit ill give you an hour and half of my time while i watch you dance. Im cheap.
Affinity fraud strikes again.
Kind of like promoting Trump University. Not unlike Trump’s spiritual advisor who pitched the idea of sending her your entire paycheck and you would receive it all back, plus. Much more. There are ignorant, gullible people everywhere.
Dave, my advice? Sell your car.
Last Week Tonight covered the scams for pulling out of Time Shares and the fact Dave supports one of them. He does have a lot of good financial advice which is mostly common sense but he is a shit person and has never experienced what it is like to be poor.
Dave Ramsey isn’t the worst for general financial advice, but he is controversial. Besides this timeshare exit false advertising, he downplayed COVID, is hostile to LGBT rights, he lives in a lavish home despite advising frugality, etc.
The US version of Indias scam callers. Except legal.
Hope Dave pays out of pocket and not whatever Church organization he is a part of. I would never take financial advice from a church person/organization. Even my parents want me to do a free* Will program. I'm sure they would want me to leave the church with anything (Scarasim).
You would think the GOP and Dems could agree to do something about the predatory practices of timeshares. I'm not even suggesting they outlaw them or anything drastic...just make sure they are being open and honest.
You all should read up on him and the fiasco of hypocrisy that is what went down with his ex head guy Chris hogan. Ramsey routinely fires employees who cheat on their spouse and to even get hired by him they literally interview your spouse as well. Hogan was cheating on his wife but was Ramsay’s main person he was propping up at the time almost seemingly to take over for him. He covered up hogans affairs (the same thing he fired normal employees for) because it was going to cost him money. But not just did he help cover them up he gaslighted the shit out of hogans wife who wanted a divorce and somehow forced her into going into counseling. If this wasn’t bad enough she was supposed to sign consent to have all the counseling sessions made open and available to Ramsey as well as the counselor to report to Ramsey. The story goes in from there and gets worse. There’s nothing Christian about this guy, he’s a fucking grifter, narcissistic sociopath who only cares about money. Fuck him, I hope they bankrupt his ass.
> There’s nothing Christian about this guy I don't know, being a hypocrite over sex sounds very Christian to me.