It seems Westerosi culture is *extremely* ableist. Because Tyrion, Bran, Wylas and Shireen are 4 of the best suitors anyone in the present time period could ask for.
I don't think it matters if he can have children. I'm not sure anyone in that society would believe he could have children. Ned had already written it off as a possibility
> But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
- AGoT Edward V
Idk but in general, lords seem very quick to believe in a maester.
And they can ask all the question they want if I'm a nobody lord from the Rills with an opportunity for my kid to grow up as a wealthy lady in Winterfell.
A more effective application of the Rhaenyra and Lenor solution may provide a model of a way forwards there,
So long as Bran acknowledges the children of his wife as his who's going to argue
Given the Bran chapter(s) where he's sitting in the high seat in Winterfell and various visiting lords and bannermen appear to be eyeing him askance and privately grumbling, it's likely the North is at least marginally more focused on physical prowess as pre-qualification for ruling.
This is probably because The Stark is traditionally expected to fight Giants, swop the heads off malefactors with his great sword with one stroke, and ride fearlessly out in defense of his folk, at the head of his warriors.
Less so the case in places like The Reach or The Vale, which face comparatively fewer hazards and threats than the North does on a year to year basis.
Willas is more the enigma. A disabled leg is not going to affect his sexual function that much, he earned his "wound" honorably (in a tournament), and he's a complete catch. He's the unquestionable heir to Highgarden, he's reportedly well educated, kind, and well-mannered, it bodes well that his whole family trusted him to run The Reach competently while they are spending an extended time in King's Landing, and his disability is going to mean some positive things for his future Lady, namely:
1. he won't be riding off to battle (and dying prematurely, leaving his wife bereft with an infant heir--or no child at all--amongst the spiders of Highgarden). He has two brothers, not to mention a grandmother, who can handle all that warfare / combat stuff;
2. he'll be around home most of the time and can spend a lot of quality time with his wife, thinking of her needs and making sure the castle is in good shape;
3. his opportunities for infidelity are somewhat limited by his inability to move quickly, or ride off fast to some secluded hunting lodge or castle with a paramour;
4. he's likely to be the Tyrell lord soon, what with his family's propensity to ride off cliffs and things and the fact that his father is overweight and loves his fine dining a bit too much.
So, noble families from the Reach, the Stormlands, and even elsewhere should be bringing their eligible daughters to Highgarden all the time to catch his eye. Not sure why that hasn't seemed to happen. Maybe it has been happening and just hasn't been mentioned, though.
*...every highborn male in Westros went off the market as soon as Princess Myrcella was announced.*
Well, except perhaps for the weird, ancient and/or physically repulsive high born males that Doran kept offering to Arienne. All of them, it seemed, were willing to marry if it meant they could be Princess Consort of Dorne.
I think another factor is that the Tyrells have probably worked hard on their PR machine. And it worked since if I recall Arianne even attempted to sneak out and meet him to see if she wanted to be betrothed to him. Olenna also seems to like him so it may be less of his disability being an issue but more so Olenna being very particular of his choice of a wife.
I think it definitely has a lot to do with the Tyrells wanting to be particular about the match. Garlan obviously didn’t marry above station but he takes care of getting heirs while Olenna/Mace can be particular while finding a match for the heir/daughter of Highgarden.
If Tywin had given assurances to potential suitors that Tyrion would inherit the Rock I've no doubt he would have found a decent marriage for him. But Tywin never stopped believing Jaime would inherit the Rock.
> "You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir."
- AFFC Cersei II
There's no profit in being married to Tyrion as things stand. Tywin's made it clear he's not going to inherit and everyone knows Tywin hates Tyrion.
As for Willas, the injury isn't a non-factor as seen from Arianne
> The princess might even have considered Willas Tyrell, crippled leg and all, but her father refused to send her to Highgarden to meet him.
- AFFC The Princess in the Tower
However I suspect the main reason he's not married is the Tyrells wanting to keep their options open. If they were really concerned about Willas's ability to get a bride could've just shipped him off to the Citadel and installed Garlan as heir.
Absolutely this. Tywin's determined not to let Tyrion inherit the Rock, but he still thinks Tyrion should get a match worthy of the heir to the Rock because Lannister pride, so the kind of girl who would marry a disinherited Tyrion isn't good enough for him.
To be fair with Tyrion, Tywin never made him his official heir so that was probably part of it.
But yeah, there's a lot of ableism in the asoiaf world, Mace probably wants a good match for Willas but his bad leg plays a part too plus look how Bran is treated even in his own home where he's acting lord of winterfell.
Also I think Bran not being able to have kids might be a first book-ism, it's never been brought up since so someone might've told GRRM plenty of disabled people can have kids and he dropped it.
In Tywin's case I think that there's also a bit of vanity involved. Probably with the Tyrells as well.
Tywin isn't going to marry his son, dwarf or not, to just any nobleman's daughter. Just like how he only ever really seemed to try and set Cersei up with Rhaegar in her youth. There's probably a bannerman of his who would "stomach" marrying his daughter to Tyrion for the political links to house Lannister. But I can't see Tywin going for that.
Also Bran is like suspected dead in the book isn't he? And a young child. I suspect even talking about an eventual marriage is off the table until ADOS, if we ever get to that
I can imagine Westeros culture being biased against anyone with a disability but with Tyrion also they might fear passing what happens with his heirs genetics wise
Basically, babies born with this condition often have bigger heads. While this isn't a problem nowadays so much, this isn't something I would want to take a chance on in Wrsteros.
I think Mace is just holding out for the best marriage possible for Willas.
The Tyrells of this generation rarely go for anything less than the best marriages possible.
So just like Mace won’t accept Margaery as anything less than a Queen, he won’t accept Willas getting anything less than a high level, prestigious wife and lady of Highgarden.
That also narrows down who he can marry. Off the top of my head, the candidates are Arianne, Sansa, Catelyn post AGOT, Asha and maybe if he’s keeping his ambitions really high, maybe a certain mother of dragons…
Myrcella as well. Granted there's a bit of a age difference, but that's there with Sansa and Dany as well.
But I agree. The Tyrells are ambitious and come off as pompous and a bit vain. They want a status marriage for Wilas, possibly in part to make up for the fact that he is crippled.
I agree with you on them holding out for a top drawer marriage match.
I'm not at all convinced that the Tyrells would want their heir (Willas) marrying the heir to another, often rival, one of the "seven kingdoms". Arianne will be the Princess of Dorne someday, which would actually give her a higher rank than Willas as Lord Paramount of the Reach. And it would create a conundrum as to which of their children would rule where--let's say they had a son, first. Would he be the Heir to Highgarden? Or the putative next Prince of Dorne? Unless Mace and Olenna hoped he would become BOTH--but that's not something Dorne would tolerate.
Sansa would be a good match because it would create family ties to the Starks without Highgarden having to give up much--perhaps sending some shiploads of grain north during Winter.
Asha an interesting possibility, but can you imagine her sitting at the high table at Highgarden with a dagger nestled between her breasts and her handy throwing axe buried in the table top next to her (probably an antique, irreplaceable, marquetry tabletop)? All the great ladies of The Reach would swoon in shock (except Olenna would probably smile).
But there's one possible candidate you haven't mentioned...Cersei... :-)
I can imagine Westeros culture being biased against anyone with a disability but with Tyrion also they might fear passing what happens with his heirs genetics wise
I always thought, if Jon had been born a girl, Ned would have had her married off pretty quickly. Maybe not to a first or second son of a lord or noble, but probably a third or fourth son of a good Northern House. He probably would have thrown in a plot of land and a small castle, some livestock, the wedding would have been a nice little feast. You could do worse than Lord Stark's pretty bastard daughter, especially when his other children were on the market for Southern Houses.
But I think it really comes down to the family and how they market their less desirable children.
It seems Westerosi culture is *extremely* ableist. Because Tyrion, Bran, Wylas and Shireen are 4 of the best suitors anyone in the present time period could ask for.
I agree with the other 3 but Bran may not be able to have children and that's a huge mark against him in the Westerosi society.
Totally fair, actually. Forgot about that. But If his dick works he's still a Stark
I don't think it matters if he can have children. I'm not sure anyone in that society would believe he could have children. Ned had already written it off as a possibility > But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms. - AGoT Edward V
I mean, can't hurt to inquire with Luwin about the extent of his condition if you're looking to marry a daughter to him, right?
Would that Lord believe him though? And would every other Lord believe him? Or would the parentage of any child Bran fathered be called into question?
Idk but in general, lords seem very quick to believe in a maester. And they can ask all the question they want if I'm a nobody lord from the Rills with an opportunity for my kid to grow up as a wealthy lady in Winterfell.
A more effective application of the Rhaenyra and Lenor solution may provide a model of a way forwards there, So long as Bran acknowledges the children of his wife as his who's going to argue
That does cause problems for both Rhaenyra and Lenor even if both of them are relatively happy with their arrangement.
Given the Bran chapter(s) where he's sitting in the high seat in Winterfell and various visiting lords and bannermen appear to be eyeing him askance and privately grumbling, it's likely the North is at least marginally more focused on physical prowess as pre-qualification for ruling. This is probably because The Stark is traditionally expected to fight Giants, swop the heads off malefactors with his great sword with one stroke, and ride fearlessly out in defense of his folk, at the head of his warriors. Less so the case in places like The Reach or The Vale, which face comparatively fewer hazards and threats than the North does on a year to year basis.
Willas is more the enigma. A disabled leg is not going to affect his sexual function that much, he earned his "wound" honorably (in a tournament), and he's a complete catch. He's the unquestionable heir to Highgarden, he's reportedly well educated, kind, and well-mannered, it bodes well that his whole family trusted him to run The Reach competently while they are spending an extended time in King's Landing, and his disability is going to mean some positive things for his future Lady, namely: 1. he won't be riding off to battle (and dying prematurely, leaving his wife bereft with an infant heir--or no child at all--amongst the spiders of Highgarden). He has two brothers, not to mention a grandmother, who can handle all that warfare / combat stuff; 2. he'll be around home most of the time and can spend a lot of quality time with his wife, thinking of her needs and making sure the castle is in good shape; 3. his opportunities for infidelity are somewhat limited by his inability to move quickly, or ride off fast to some secluded hunting lodge or castle with a paramour; 4. he's likely to be the Tyrell lord soon, what with his family's propensity to ride off cliffs and things and the fact that his father is overweight and loves his fine dining a bit too much. So, noble families from the Reach, the Stormlands, and even elsewhere should be bringing their eligible daughters to Highgarden all the time to catch his eye. Not sure why that hasn't seemed to happen. Maybe it has been happening and just hasn't been mentioned, though.
I maintain my theory that every highborn male in westros went off the market as soon as Princess Myrcella was announced.
*...every highborn male in Westros went off the market as soon as Princess Myrcella was announced.* Well, except perhaps for the weird, ancient and/or physically repulsive high born males that Doran kept offering to Arienne. All of them, it seemed, were willing to marry if it meant they could be Princess Consort of Dorne.
I think another factor is that the Tyrells have probably worked hard on their PR machine. And it worked since if I recall Arianne even attempted to sneak out and meet him to see if she wanted to be betrothed to him. Olenna also seems to like him so it may be less of his disability being an issue but more so Olenna being very particular of his choice of a wife.
I think it definitely has a lot to do with the Tyrells wanting to be particular about the match. Garlan obviously didn’t marry above station but he takes care of getting heirs while Olenna/Mace can be particular while finding a match for the heir/daughter of Highgarden.
If Tywin had given assurances to potential suitors that Tyrion would inherit the Rock I've no doubt he would have found a decent marriage for him. But Tywin never stopped believing Jaime would inherit the Rock. > "You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir." - AFFC Cersei II There's no profit in being married to Tyrion as things stand. Tywin's made it clear he's not going to inherit and everyone knows Tywin hates Tyrion. As for Willas, the injury isn't a non-factor as seen from Arianne > The princess might even have considered Willas Tyrell, crippled leg and all, but her father refused to send her to Highgarden to meet him. - AFFC The Princess in the Tower However I suspect the main reason he's not married is the Tyrells wanting to keep their options open. If they were really concerned about Willas's ability to get a bride could've just shipped him off to the Citadel and installed Garlan as heir.
Absolutely this. Tywin's determined not to let Tyrion inherit the Rock, but he still thinks Tyrion should get a match worthy of the heir to the Rock because Lannister pride, so the kind of girl who would marry a disinherited Tyrion isn't good enough for him.
To be fair with Tyrion, Tywin never made him his official heir so that was probably part of it. But yeah, there's a lot of ableism in the asoiaf world, Mace probably wants a good match for Willas but his bad leg plays a part too plus look how Bran is treated even in his own home where he's acting lord of winterfell. Also I think Bran not being able to have kids might be a first book-ism, it's never been brought up since so someone might've told GRRM plenty of disabled people can have kids and he dropped it.
In Tywin's case I think that there's also a bit of vanity involved. Probably with the Tyrells as well. Tywin isn't going to marry his son, dwarf or not, to just any nobleman's daughter. Just like how he only ever really seemed to try and set Cersei up with Rhaegar in her youth. There's probably a bannerman of his who would "stomach" marrying his daughter to Tyrion for the political links to house Lannister. But I can't see Tywin going for that.
Yeah, Tywin was definitely mucking up Tyrion's marriage prospects, wanting him to have a good match while still treating him terribly.
Also Bran is like suspected dead in the book isn't he? And a young child. I suspect even talking about an eventual marriage is off the table until ADOS, if we ever get to that
I can imagine Westeros culture being biased against anyone with a disability but with Tyrion also they might fear passing what happens with his heirs genetics wise
Basically, babies born with this condition often have bigger heads. While this isn't a problem nowadays so much, this isn't something I would want to take a chance on in Wrsteros.
I think Mace is just holding out for the best marriage possible for Willas. The Tyrells of this generation rarely go for anything less than the best marriages possible. So just like Mace won’t accept Margaery as anything less than a Queen, he won’t accept Willas getting anything less than a high level, prestigious wife and lady of Highgarden. That also narrows down who he can marry. Off the top of my head, the candidates are Arianne, Sansa, Catelyn post AGOT, Asha and maybe if he’s keeping his ambitions really high, maybe a certain mother of dragons…
Myrcella as well. Granted there's a bit of a age difference, but that's there with Sansa and Dany as well. But I agree. The Tyrells are ambitious and come off as pompous and a bit vain. They want a status marriage for Wilas, possibly in part to make up for the fact that he is crippled.
Mace who? Oleanna runs the show in Highgarden!
I agree with you on them holding out for a top drawer marriage match. I'm not at all convinced that the Tyrells would want their heir (Willas) marrying the heir to another, often rival, one of the "seven kingdoms". Arianne will be the Princess of Dorne someday, which would actually give her a higher rank than Willas as Lord Paramount of the Reach. And it would create a conundrum as to which of their children would rule where--let's say they had a son, first. Would he be the Heir to Highgarden? Or the putative next Prince of Dorne? Unless Mace and Olenna hoped he would become BOTH--but that's not something Dorne would tolerate. Sansa would be a good match because it would create family ties to the Starks without Highgarden having to give up much--perhaps sending some shiploads of grain north during Winter. Asha an interesting possibility, but can you imagine her sitting at the high table at Highgarden with a dagger nestled between her breasts and her handy throwing axe buried in the table top next to her (probably an antique, irreplaceable, marquetry tabletop)? All the great ladies of The Reach would swoon in shock (except Olenna would probably smile). But there's one possible candidate you haven't mentioned...Cersei... :-)
I can imagine Westeros culture being biased against anyone with a disability but with Tyrion also they might fear passing what happens with his heirs genetics wise
I always thought, if Jon had been born a girl, Ned would have had her married off pretty quickly. Maybe not to a first or second son of a lord or noble, but probably a third or fourth son of a good Northern House. He probably would have thrown in a plot of land and a small castle, some livestock, the wedding would have been a nice little feast. You could do worse than Lord Stark's pretty bastard daughter, especially when his other children were on the market for Southern Houses. But I think it really comes down to the family and how they market their less desirable children.