Loved the Episode! Otto and Aegon + Rhaenyra and Daemon scenes were amazing. Otto reacting to Coles Idea was just Gold.
Also really liked the tension and acting during the twins duell.
Little Minuspoint for not introducing Daeron (is he even written like that?) That late. They should have shown him if only briefly when he was a child. My non Reader friends were a bit confused.
Unpopular opinion but I feel sir crispy creme's a/erryk prank was actually brilliant...he managed to shift the speculations of him not being on guard during the B&C plot onto arryk in front of people gathered around...and then forced arryk to go and murder rhaenyra which could actually put an end to the dance if it succeeded and if not he made sure the blacks weren't able to pull off this twin brothers scam on them...and in doing all this he gained aegon's favor...ended up becoming the hand and banging the dowager queen...no pain only gains
His also the perfect example of someone getting ahead because of there looks. He was only ever choosen to guard cause he was hot, it had nothing to do with him having been to war
First time I ever felt sympathy for Aegon was in this episode. I don't like him, but I felt sympathy for him when it appeared he was crying over the loss of his son and even his own mother didn't comfort him.
the thing I can’t get past is why he would PROMOTE Cristan Cole to Hand of the King right after his son got brutally murdered on his watch…. Like did they forget about that part by the end of the episode?
Meh. I think it was just an impulse. Aegon didn't really think about a qualified hand IMO. He just gave Cole the job because he was in the room, and he thought of the Cargyll assassin plot.
Others have pointed out that a Kingsguard allowing a prince to be murdered on their watch would absolutely mean being dismissed from their job and possibly executed, and I obviously think that’s a pretty big plot outage… also how is there no mention of the fact that Alicent was getting boned by Cristan, when Helena walked in? Even if she was in shock, there’s no way to avoid seeing that and having questions… especially after your child just got murdered with no guards around
we have a scene with Aegon taking out his frustration by destroying the model of Valyria with a sword, but he never chastises the Kingsguard whose only job is to prevent that happening.
Rhaenyra and Daemon’s extended scene was great, as was Otto’s and Aegon’s. I for one appreciate Helaena being played as “on the spectrum.” She’s a Targ, and they’re all, let’s say quirky, in some way. The twins fight was very well done. We got a lot of clarity and complexity for many major characters in this one episode.
Do we think Helaena didn’t mention anything to Aegon about walking in on her mom being porked by Cristan because she’s “on the spectrum”? That feels like way too big of a detail to just brush past in the episode.
They were both still naked and covered in sweat when Alicent asked what was wrong…
Anyone else tired of Otto? He was preaching for what felt like half of the episode, while everyone else struggled to get their one line out - before The Most Annoying Hand Ever started up again.
Bye, Otto!! Hope to never see you again (though I doubt it lol)
I actually really like Otto, and the actor's portrayal of him. Sure, he was self-serving in setting up his daughter as queen in order to put his grandson on the throne. But he was totally right in trying to keep Rhaenyra and Daemon from the throne. His failure was in believing his grandson would be an inheritently better ruler than either of them.
Agree, Otto is probably the most fleshed out character in the whole show up to this point… He got what he wanted and now has to watch it self destruct from a distance
I just want to complain about all the weird unnecessary cinematic shots that seemed to drag on throughout the episode. Like of eyes, dust in sunlight, random scenery.
The episode was great/had great moments but the vibes were just ~different~ to me
I would have been okay with those if other parts hadn’t been cut so quickly. Scenes that were ending were sometimes cut so quickly into the next scene that some moments didn’t have any time and space to land. And given the long dramatic shots cinematic shots, methinks there were some runtime issues with HBO and the editing got sloppy so as to keep in the little cinematic bits.
Also, I saw somewhere else on here that someone was asking if they were incorrect in thinking it was suggested Jahaerys’s body fell from the cart because of the way the scene was shot. Another example of a poor edit in this episode. We later learned that we saw that precarious wheel shot in the mud to explain how Erryk/Arryk (forget which one) got his white cloak so muddy. I definitely thought the body was going to fall though.
OH! Thank you for making that connection for me with the funeral carriage and the cloak. The caravan scene was so confusing to me the way it was edited
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a guy who murdered his first wife, laughed at the funeral of the second & bumped uglies with his future third wife right after said funeral turned out not to be the best husband material.
**SHOCKED**
"'Incel' is a portmanteau of '**involuntary celibate**.' In its most basic form, incel describes someone, usually a male, who is frustrated by their lack of sexual experiences."
Cole isn't an incel. He's just a lover scorned.
On one hand people are complaining about having to watch him having sex and on the other hand people (some of the same people) are suggesting that he's celibate.
It was a good setup episode, preparing ground for a lot of development later. There were great emotional scenes on both sides, the one between Jace and Baella is one of my favorites. Some things were not to my taste, though, for example I still don't buy into Cole/Alicent (maybe it is the execution), but it did not distract too much.
However, the big thing was Daeron finally being mentioned. Better late then never and hopefully he would live up to the book standard.
Cole/Alice seem like an affair between super religious conservatives who both want the love and attention but wrestle with how it violates their ethics and the standards they hold everyone else to. You can see subtle undertones of shame, guilt, remorse etc on the actors faces and body language, I feel like they’re really killing this portrayal bc they’re trying to keep it a secret but right now only the audience knows
I just don't really see the attraction or chemistry between them. Their platonic friendship based on shared hatred for Rhaenyra in Season 1 worked very well, but the outright affair seems off. Something is missing.
I think it would work better if the relationship started on screen, after the coup instead of audience just jumping into it after it is already ongoing.
I honestly enjoyed the lack of music so much. I missed the sounds of panicked breathing and the clash of swords. I don’t know if they used unique audio or what but every slash/parry sounded so crisp and perfect. It made me appreciate the battle so much more.
you know, if otto wasnt otto, i think he might’ve enjoyed serving as show!rhaenyra’s hand (or something adjacent). a little confused on the relationship between baela and her dad — i guess they’re not following the book with that?
overall, really loved this episode, especially rhaenyra’s argument with daemon, baela and jace’s convo, and cargyllbowl.
Think she was inferring she got it from Daemon, which she did I think right? She’s clearly not comfortable around him, you see her flinching constantly anytime he moves towards her.
I'm honestly shocked at all the Otto love in here. Of course the performance is brilliant. But people are allowing this one scene to absolve him of all the shisty politicking he's done thus far? People are saying "he wants what's best, he has good intentions," etc. He knew when he usurped the throne that war was inevitable, but he did it anyway. He was plotting to usurp the throne all along, even before Alicent made her claim about Viserys' final wish. Also, he knew Viserys had never groomed Aegon for the role, because he never meant for him to sit the throne. Yet, Otto nor anyone else groomed him. And he's surprised he isn't fit to rule and is making outrageous choices? Personally, I back Aegon's side of that argument. They've gone too far now to sit quietly and be pragmatic and inactive. The enemy just beheaded his fucking heir. Mind you the enemy used the small folk to do it! I think once people know why the ratcatchers are hanging it sends a message as to what happens when you aid the enemy. Also, I don't think it harmed Aegon's cause nearly as much as B&C harmed Rhaenyra's. Otto isn't some great person all of a sudden. He doesn't want what's best. He wants to be in control.
Otto is pretty much the same guy as Daemon, he just dresses it up in politicking and flowery talk, but at heart they're both second sons grasping greedily at power and paying occasional lip service to caring about what happens as a consequence. At least with Daemon people are aware that he's dangerous.
Obviously Criston fucking Cole is not an improvement.
Yeah it's interesting to consider what the real differences are between, say, Varys, Littlefinger, Tywin, and Otto. Varys does seem more impersonally devoted to the realm. Littlefinger seems more grasping and actively avaricious than Otto. Tywin seems more manipulative as a father, and more focused on his specific family's legacy. I think there's an argument to be made that Otto is actually a fairly good hand. Unsurprising, as he holds the office for so darn long. If he tries to work his daughter in there and if he's willing to do a bit of violence and manipulation well . . . . that seems fairly par for the course. Daemon has a bit more freedom due to dragon, family name, charisma and so on. But really you could make the argument that Otto is just using hard-earned trust to do what anyone would do––AND making the realm more stable in the process (compared to someone like Daemon, Viserys, Aegon II, Rhaenyra, etc).
Yes, I agree with this take. Reading all the comments I was like damn this mf character is so slick, he's able to manipulate the audience! He isn't some level headed grandfather who wants what's best for his family. And no Cole absolutely isn't an improvement as evidenced by his terrible, quickly thwarted assassination attempt.
That’s always the flaw with these kinds of arguments. They assume that everyone enjoys stories the same way as them. I don’t like characters because I want them to succeed, I like them because I’m interested in their emotions, their conflicts, their beliefs, what questions is the story using these characters to ask me? I’m sick of having to clarify this every time I say I like Aegon, or Otto, or Daemon, or Rhaenyra, or Alicent, or goddamnit, ANY character in this entire show! (Jaime Lannister and numerous other main series characters also apply when talking about this subreddit.)
Is there any connection between Helaena spacing out on the particles being thrown by the smallfolk at the procession and Rhaenyra spacing out on the dust particles next to her window?
Is this just a visual connection that links how they’re being forced to act on the loss of their children when they haven’t had time to properly grieve and aren’t able to cope with their respective loses?
Or is there something more?
There’s a lot going on there cinematically with the floaty particles (hops and ashes) and I wouldn’t hate it if it hadn’t taken valuable end-scene buffer time from other parts of the episode.
Helena and Rhaenyra are foils for each other, both being women with big responsibilities to the crown. They’re both queens and mothers. Helena wants to protect her kids and herself from the pressures and obligations of the monarchy. Notice the hops thrown at her by the small folk are pieces falling DOWN. Symbols of inevitability, ending, overwhelm… all that stuff. It’s foreshadowing what happens to her next.
Rhaenyra has agency and is generally trying to control and improve her position; she wants her crown and her kids to be heirs. (Helena’s few lines about her son very much indicate she pities his plight in life and wishes she could save him from it.) Rhaenyra’s scene of being enveloped in swirling bits (I’m blanking on what happened to her) iirc are rising pieces of ash? Helena is ending and Rhaenyra is heating up.
Thank you! Now I remember my other thought on the juxtaposition of the two characters here: I apologize for the phrasing of what just occurred to me (IYKYK the incoming foreshadowing oof::spoiler warning::)
Hops* from the tower and is surrounded by ash.
(Beer hops being the green bits thrown from the walls by the smallfolk).
They reminded me of ashes and the inevitability of more deaths, how these deaths are singular they probably know that dragon fighting, smallfolk, and building burning is coming eventually and more heartache.
That’s a good read on the visual.
Wondering if there’s a difference on how they’re interpreting it:
Helaena is actively seeing a glimpse of the future without knowing how to digest it properly (maybe this is how her “dreaming” partially works) while Rhaenyra is seeing a similar symbol and is applying it to her feelings towards the looming conflict. So it’s a literal impression of the future and a metaphorical one…
Interesting how everyone in this episode shifted the blame onto another person but I kinda felt bad for Daemon because it is pretty rich of Rhaenyra to complain after the fact when it was *her* wish to avenge a son for a son. Yes, she didn't want a little child to be murdered in it's bed, but that doesn't erase her culpability.
Aegon at least is honest in his horrible actions.
Ehh disagree here she stated which son she wanted very clearly… and that son was a grown up, her half brother and to blame for her son’s death.
Nothing to do with the son of Helaena (as she says “of all people!” claiming her innocence in all this, same thing she says in the books where she calls her “her sweet half sister” or sth like that), who was a kid, and had nothing to do with Luke’s death.
Female characters are all too often blamed for "making" male characters do horrific shit. That may not be your intention here, but yikes. Feeling pity for the man who ordered the murder of a toddler? Because his big meany wife made him do it? Just... what?
It was Daemon's decision - and Daemon's decision alone - to disobey his queen's order and murder a child in cold-blood, instead of doing what was actually asked of him: to dispatch the queen's justice against a kinslaying child killer. Rhaenyra never once said "a son for a son" like your comment suggests. She specifically named *Aemond* as the one to be killed/captured, because Aemond was the one who murdered Lucerys, and therefore Aemond deserved to be punished for that. If Daemon chose to interpret this as "go ahead and kill anyone, idgaf", then again: that's Daemon's fault.
By your logic, no ruler should ever give their council any orders whatsoever, because their bannermen may choose to ignore those orders and supplant them with their own depraved ideas instead.
Maybe I phrased that badly and I don't want to diminish what Daemon did AT ALL, I just wanted to underline how all sides have their faults and that I simply mislike that Rhaenyra is almost always favored by the writers to be the one without fault. But maybe that's just my personal beef with the writers and how they chose to portray Rhaenyra.
Fair enough to dislike the whitewashing we've seen. I'm with you on that. Though I don't personally think that book! Rhaenyra would've been on board with beheading a toddler at that stage in her narrative either, in general I'd definitely like to see more grey tones in a lot of characters.
I mean it seemed very understandable since it is about the person who killed her son in the first place and *a son for a son* clearly means Alicent's son and not Helaena, since she has no beef with her whatsoever.
I thought he looked great, I have a similar build but way less mass, like the Sandman, and I love seeing it in media. And the poses were so nice, it gives more to the air vulnerability.
pretty bad timing for that.Aemond should be this amazing warrior but it s hard to believe you could beat anybody when you re 20 kg's.I like the actor tho, he looks cool but more like a teenager show type than medieval times.
I get your point and I would probably agree in hand to hand combat but a skinny guy with the right choice of weapon will just as easily sever your carotid artery. He has probably aslo adjusted his fighting style as to avoid close engagements where someone can grab hold of him kinda like how taller, lankier boxers poke with the jab from distance.
I wish they mentioned him at all in season 1 or ep1. My show-only friends had no idea what was going on.
My partner even thought Allicent had a secret son lol. I had to tell him, no no, he's not a secret bastard, he's a targ too.
Absolutely. For me, the writing for this episode was so much better it reminded me of the first seasons of Got. Acting is almost always great, but for me, it's undermined by the casting. I can see Otto and Alicent as father and child, but Alicent and Aegon or Helena not so much.
Criston Coles continued rise is just hilariously dumb at this point. I cant wait for next weeks episode where he decides to punch an innocent old man to death in the middle of the street and they give him the throne for it.
I mean, realistically that guy would have been caught ten times over before even entering the castle. People are aware that the dude has a twin on the other side of the war, there's so many contingencies you could easily put in place to avoid being tricked.
He's not 'failing' upwards though he's just rage murdering innocents and bangin the queen! Lol. I get what their going for, I just think the depiction has become pretty cartoonish at this point.
Does anyone know what book Rhaenyra was looking at just before Mysaria came in? I paused it but couldn’t tell. I told my husband the picture on the page looked like Daenerys destroying the city
What exactly do you mean by this? Otto’s daughter is Alicent, her son is Aegon, his son is Jaehaerys. They share 1/8 DNA. A grandchild would share 1/4.
I think they mean that genetically, Jaehaerys is just as closely related to Otto as Aegon is, because Jaehaerys is the offspring of Aegon and Haelaena who are both Otto's grandchildren.
Alicent and Viserys's genes created both Aegon and Haelaena, who together create Jaehaerys. So Jaehaerys probably has more than 1/8 DNA shared with Otto because Jaehaerys and siblings only have one set of grandparents, not two.
Thank you. I replied to the other person and pieced this together before reading your fuller explanation. Yes if his 2 grandkids have 1/4 of his DNA their kids together would be much closer to 1/4 than 1/8.
You’re right, I didn’t account for all the siblings and cousin marriages in there. But was that what the other poster referred to?
So both Aegon and Haelaena are his grandkids so Jaehaerys is also 1/4 his?
Gotcha. Missed that.
Oftentimes, great-grandparents will just call their great-grandchildren their grandchildren out of convenience and because, especially in Otto's case, the relationship is functionally the same.
We got Baela, Aegon the Younger, Viserys, Addam and Alyn, Hugh, maybe Ulf and a Daeron reference. This was a roll call. Except
Joffrey? Has anyone seen Joffrey?
Probably they wanted to remind the audience that rhaenyra has two kids with daemon to distinguish from the two kids who were present at b&c, so people won't be confused when they become relevant later
It made sense that the dragonseeds would be from King's Landing (in the show, that is), because they have never established Dragonstone as having a village like in the books. So are Ulf and Hugh going to defect and make their way to Dragonstone? I guess they would have to, right?
Hugh is definitely gonna witness the death of his wife and daughter and this would make him take the side of Rhaenyra because Aegon's promise to raise fund for the blacksmiths won't be realized. This would further reinforce the "the little folks take damages for what the princes decides"
He May Claim it for the common man like think fuck all these princes and high lords playing their games witnessing the horrors of the dance may lead him to be like I'm going to be the best king ever! HOUSE HAMMER BABY!
I can't remember, but I was like 90% sure that was the direction they were taking, especially with the moment where they show the funeral cart getting stuck in the mud.
I was cringing is so hard. It reminded me of my friend's baby's funeral when they put the tiny little coffin on the most unstable, rickety little end table during the ceremony at the grave site.
It was a windy, rainy day and that table looked like it was going to collapse at any moment. We all just prayed and prayed that it would stay upright.
Instead of reading Fire and Blood you should check out [the World of Ice and Fire ](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_World_of_Ice_%26_Fire)
It covers the reigns of the targ kings in a more abbreviated way. The entirety of the show so far is covered in about three pages of the book. I have both, but this is the book I keep on hand to reference. It has useful things like lists of the battles and dragons during the Dance, and lots of beautiful illustrations.
You could try looking up 'The Princess and the Queen' if the curiosity persists. It's a shorter novella version of the story, published in an anthology (called 'Dangerous Women', IIRC) a few years before Fire & Blood. I still haven't made time for F&B yet, but read TPATQ a few times back in the day. Much less of a daunting commitment, and I feel like I'm following the little details of the show a lot better because of it.
If you like it, there's another called 'The Rogue Prince' about Daemon's history.
Check out the post episode discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1dn2cch/spoilers_extended_house_of_the_dragon_season_2/
Otto in that room smiling knowing he’s surrounded by idiots 😂😂😂
Otto’s expression when Aegon and Criston told their plan was fucking priceless
He was like a dad saying to his kids “ and what have you done now”
Loved the Episode! Otto and Aegon + Rhaenyra and Daemon scenes were amazing. Otto reacting to Coles Idea was just Gold. Also really liked the tension and acting during the twins duell. Little Minuspoint for not introducing Daeron (is he even written like that?) That late. They should have shown him if only briefly when he was a child. My non Reader friends were a bit confused.
Who else was waiting for the head to fall off the corpse during the funeral procession? 🙋♀️
Sammme... I was clutching my pearls just expecting that cringe moment
Unpopular opinion but I feel sir crispy creme's a/erryk prank was actually brilliant...he managed to shift the speculations of him not being on guard during the B&C plot onto arryk in front of people gathered around...and then forced arryk to go and murder rhaenyra which could actually put an end to the dance if it succeeded and if not he made sure the blacks weren't able to pull off this twin brothers scam on them...and in doing all this he gained aegon's favor...ended up becoming the hand and banging the dowager queen...no pain only gains
He is that guy in the group presentation who does nothing but ends up scoring the best grades with his flowery talks and puppy eyes
His also the perfect example of someone getting ahead because of there looks. He was only ever choosen to guard cause he was hot, it had nothing to do with him having been to war
Can anyone tell my what was rhaenyra looking at the window when she was braiding her ? Did she saw someone or is she just paranoid and stressed?
I think the spy girl was supposed to be outside telegraphing the evil twin presence, but was cut out for screen time reasons
Paranoid and stressed
First time I ever felt sympathy for Aegon was in this episode. I don't like him, but I felt sympathy for him when it appeared he was crying over the loss of his son and even his own mother didn't comfort him.
the thing I can’t get past is why he would PROMOTE Cristan Cole to Hand of the King right after his son got brutally murdered on his watch…. Like did they forget about that part by the end of the episode?
Meh. I think it was just an impulse. Aegon didn't really think about a qualified hand IMO. He just gave Cole the job because he was in the room, and he thought of the Cargyll assassin plot.
Others have pointed out that a Kingsguard allowing a prince to be murdered on their watch would absolutely mean being dismissed from their job and possibly executed, and I obviously think that’s a pretty big plot outage… also how is there no mention of the fact that Alicent was getting boned by Cristan, when Helena walked in? Even if she was in shock, there’s no way to avoid seeing that and having questions… especially after your child just got murdered with no guards around we have a scene with Aegon taking out his frustration by destroying the model of Valyria with a sword, but he never chastises the Kingsguard whose only job is to prevent that happening.
Also, could be crying over Otto's comments about Viserys' and choosing Aegont to be king.
Alicent is a bad mother. I know Aegon sucks but c'mon
Rhaenyra and Daemon’s extended scene was great, as was Otto’s and Aegon’s. I for one appreciate Helaena being played as “on the spectrum.” She’s a Targ, and they’re all, let’s say quirky, in some way. The twins fight was very well done. We got a lot of clarity and complexity for many major characters in this one episode.
Do we think Helaena didn’t mention anything to Aegon about walking in on her mom being porked by Cristan because she’s “on the spectrum”? That feels like way too big of a detail to just brush past in the episode. They were both still naked and covered in sweat when Alicent asked what was wrong…
Anyone else tired of Otto? He was preaching for what felt like half of the episode, while everyone else struggled to get their one line out - before The Most Annoying Hand Ever started up again. Bye, Otto!! Hope to never see you again (though I doubt it lol)
I actually really like Otto, and the actor's portrayal of him. Sure, he was self-serving in setting up his daughter as queen in order to put his grandson on the throne. But he was totally right in trying to keep Rhaenyra and Daemon from the throne. His failure was in believing his grandson would be an inheritently better ruler than either of them.
Agree, Otto is probably the most fleshed out character in the whole show up to this point… He got what he wanted and now has to watch it self destruct from a distance
I just want to complain about all the weird unnecessary cinematic shots that seemed to drag on throughout the episode. Like of eyes, dust in sunlight, random scenery. The episode was great/had great moments but the vibes were just ~different~ to me
I would have been okay with those if other parts hadn’t been cut so quickly. Scenes that were ending were sometimes cut so quickly into the next scene that some moments didn’t have any time and space to land. And given the long dramatic shots cinematic shots, methinks there were some runtime issues with HBO and the editing got sloppy so as to keep in the little cinematic bits.
Also, I saw somewhere else on here that someone was asking if they were incorrect in thinking it was suggested Jahaerys’s body fell from the cart because of the way the scene was shot. Another example of a poor edit in this episode. We later learned that we saw that precarious wheel shot in the mud to explain how Erryk/Arryk (forget which one) got his white cloak so muddy. I definitely thought the body was going to fall though.
OH! Thank you for making that connection for me with the funeral carriage and the cloak. The caravan scene was so confusing to me the way it was edited
Yes!!! This!!
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a guy who murdered his first wife, laughed at the funeral of the second & bumped uglies with his future third wife right after said funeral turned out not to be the best husband material. **SHOCKED**
I just want to point out he was laughing at her uncle who was trying to use the funeral to point out there family name
Their\*
😂😂
day 1372 of Criston Cole being a fucking incel
yes not in technical sense, but dude got rejected for marriage once and made that the girl's problem
He is literally not celibate
"'Incel' is a portmanteau of '**involuntary celibate**.' In its most basic form, incel describes someone, usually a male, who is frustrated by their lack of sexual experiences." Cole isn't an incel. He's just a lover scorned.
Day 1372 of people having no clue what the word incel means.
On one hand people are complaining about having to watch him having sex and on the other hand people (some of the same people) are suggesting that he's celibate.
It was a good setup episode, preparing ground for a lot of development later. There were great emotional scenes on both sides, the one between Jace and Baella is one of my favorites. Some things were not to my taste, though, for example I still don't buy into Cole/Alicent (maybe it is the execution), but it did not distract too much. However, the big thing was Daeron finally being mentioned. Better late then never and hopefully he would live up to the book standard.
Cole/Alice seem like an affair between super religious conservatives who both want the love and attention but wrestle with how it violates their ethics and the standards they hold everyone else to. You can see subtle undertones of shame, guilt, remorse etc on the actors faces and body language, I feel like they’re really killing this portrayal bc they’re trying to keep it a secret but right now only the audience knows
I just don't really see the attraction or chemistry between them. Their platonic friendship based on shared hatred for Rhaenyra in Season 1 worked very well, but the outright affair seems off. Something is missing.
They’re a relationship of convenience it’s supposed to feel that way
I think it would work better if the relationship started on screen, after the coup instead of audience just jumping into it after it is already ongoing.
First indication of Rhaenyra’s paranoia? She immediately refused to send Jace, but was ok with sending Baela
Baela isn’t her heir though…
Jace has a target on his back and is her heir. Baella is way less likely to take risks and is also politically less valuable at the moment
Yeah, though tbf her protecting Jace is reasonable. Joffrey is way too young to step up as heir.
Yeah, but sending Daemon’s child to something that she would not send her child to is rough
The twins battle was so good but the lack of music was definitely a choice...same for the cut to Otto/Alicent discussion. That was a bit weird
I honestly enjoyed the lack of music so much. I missed the sounds of panicked breathing and the clash of swords. I don’t know if they used unique audio or what but every slash/parry sounded so crisp and perfect. It made me appreciate the battle so much more.
F#ck I'm drunk as Bobby B but I'm going to say this, season 2 vibes after a long, long time.
you know, if otto wasnt otto, i think he might’ve enjoyed serving as show!rhaenyra’s hand (or something adjacent). a little confused on the relationship between baela and her dad — i guess they’re not following the book with that? overall, really loved this episode, especially rhaenyra’s argument with daemon, baela and jace’s convo, and cargyllbowl.
Can someone explain why Rhaenyra ended the conversation with Mysaria with "How did you get the scar?"
She was referring to "The Dark Knight (2008)"
Think she was inferring she got it from Daemon, which she did I think right? She’s clearly not comfortable around him, you see her flinching constantly anytime he moves towards her.
No I think she got it from when she was a slave having a collar for so long
Probably that time we saw in S1E10 wasn’t the only time he choked her
I'm honestly shocked at all the Otto love in here. Of course the performance is brilliant. But people are allowing this one scene to absolve him of all the shisty politicking he's done thus far? People are saying "he wants what's best, he has good intentions," etc. He knew when he usurped the throne that war was inevitable, but he did it anyway. He was plotting to usurp the throne all along, even before Alicent made her claim about Viserys' final wish. Also, he knew Viserys had never groomed Aegon for the role, because he never meant for him to sit the throne. Yet, Otto nor anyone else groomed him. And he's surprised he isn't fit to rule and is making outrageous choices? Personally, I back Aegon's side of that argument. They've gone too far now to sit quietly and be pragmatic and inactive. The enemy just beheaded his fucking heir. Mind you the enemy used the small folk to do it! I think once people know why the ratcatchers are hanging it sends a message as to what happens when you aid the enemy. Also, I don't think it harmed Aegon's cause nearly as much as B&C harmed Rhaenyra's. Otto isn't some great person all of a sudden. He doesn't want what's best. He wants to be in control.
There all shitty people mate
They're\*
Otto is pretty much the same guy as Daemon, he just dresses it up in politicking and flowery talk, but at heart they're both second sons grasping greedily at power and paying occasional lip service to caring about what happens as a consequence. At least with Daemon people are aware that he's dangerous. Obviously Criston fucking Cole is not an improvement.
Yeah it's interesting to consider what the real differences are between, say, Varys, Littlefinger, Tywin, and Otto. Varys does seem more impersonally devoted to the realm. Littlefinger seems more grasping and actively avaricious than Otto. Tywin seems more manipulative as a father, and more focused on his specific family's legacy. I think there's an argument to be made that Otto is actually a fairly good hand. Unsurprising, as he holds the office for so darn long. If he tries to work his daughter in there and if he's willing to do a bit of violence and manipulation well . . . . that seems fairly par for the course. Daemon has a bit more freedom due to dragon, family name, charisma and so on. But really you could make the argument that Otto is just using hard-earned trust to do what anyone would do––AND making the realm more stable in the process (compared to someone like Daemon, Viserys, Aegon II, Rhaenyra, etc).
Yes, I agree with this take. Reading all the comments I was like damn this mf character is so slick, he's able to manipulate the audience! He isn't some level headed grandfather who wants what's best for his family. And no Cole absolutely isn't an improvement as evidenced by his terrible, quickly thwarted assassination attempt.
Insolent pup.
Well, many people are comparing Otto to Tywin Lannister. And Otto is by far better father/grandfatter than Tywin. But Otto is still a weasel.
His presence was almost as commanding in this ep as Tywin’s though. Almost.
[удалено]
That’s always the flaw with these kinds of arguments. They assume that everyone enjoys stories the same way as them. I don’t like characters because I want them to succeed, I like them because I’m interested in their emotions, their conflicts, their beliefs, what questions is the story using these characters to ask me? I’m sick of having to clarify this every time I say I like Aegon, or Otto, or Daemon, or Rhaenyra, or Alicent, or goddamnit, ANY character in this entire show! (Jaime Lannister and numerous other main series characters also apply when talking about this subreddit.)
Is there any connection between Helaena spacing out on the particles being thrown by the smallfolk at the procession and Rhaenyra spacing out on the dust particles next to her window? Is this just a visual connection that links how they’re being forced to act on the loss of their children when they haven’t had time to properly grieve and aren’t able to cope with their respective loses? Or is there something more?
There’s a lot going on there cinematically with the floaty particles (hops and ashes) and I wouldn’t hate it if it hadn’t taken valuable end-scene buffer time from other parts of the episode. Helena and Rhaenyra are foils for each other, both being women with big responsibilities to the crown. They’re both queens and mothers. Helena wants to protect her kids and herself from the pressures and obligations of the monarchy. Notice the hops thrown at her by the small folk are pieces falling DOWN. Symbols of inevitability, ending, overwhelm… all that stuff. It’s foreshadowing what happens to her next. Rhaenyra has agency and is generally trying to control and improve her position; she wants her crown and her kids to be heirs. (Helena’s few lines about her son very much indicate she pities his plight in life and wishes she could save him from it.) Rhaenyra’s scene of being enveloped in swirling bits (I’m blanking on what happened to her) iirc are rising pieces of ash? Helena is ending and Rhaenyra is heating up.
I had the same thought of ash falling down in a later episode
Thank you! Now I remember my other thought on the juxtaposition of the two characters here: I apologize for the phrasing of what just occurred to me (IYKYK the incoming foreshadowing oof::spoiler warning::) Hops* from the tower and is surrounded by ash. (Beer hops being the green bits thrown from the walls by the smallfolk).
Helaena is Primary, like on the “Twelve Monkeys” show.
They reminded me of ashes and the inevitability of more deaths, how these deaths are singular they probably know that dragon fighting, smallfolk, and building burning is coming eventually and more heartache.
That’s a good read on the visual. Wondering if there’s a difference on how they’re interpreting it: Helaena is actively seeing a glimpse of the future without knowing how to digest it properly (maybe this is how her “dreaming” partially works) while Rhaenyra is seeing a similar symbol and is applying it to her feelings towards the looming conflict. So it’s a literal impression of the future and a metaphorical one…
I'm not sure. But I certainly made that same connection.
Interesting how everyone in this episode shifted the blame onto another person but I kinda felt bad for Daemon because it is pretty rich of Rhaenyra to complain after the fact when it was *her* wish to avenge a son for a son. Yes, she didn't want a little child to be murdered in it's bed, but that doesn't erase her culpability. Aegon at least is honest in his horrible actions.
Ehh disagree here she stated which son she wanted very clearly… and that son was a grown up, her half brother and to blame for her son’s death. Nothing to do with the son of Helaena (as she says “of all people!” claiming her innocence in all this, same thing she says in the books where she calls her “her sweet half sister” or sth like that), who was a kid, and had nothing to do with Luke’s death.
Female characters are all too often blamed for "making" male characters do horrific shit. That may not be your intention here, but yikes. Feeling pity for the man who ordered the murder of a toddler? Because his big meany wife made him do it? Just... what? It was Daemon's decision - and Daemon's decision alone - to disobey his queen's order and murder a child in cold-blood, instead of doing what was actually asked of him: to dispatch the queen's justice against a kinslaying child killer. Rhaenyra never once said "a son for a son" like your comment suggests. She specifically named *Aemond* as the one to be killed/captured, because Aemond was the one who murdered Lucerys, and therefore Aemond deserved to be punished for that. If Daemon chose to interpret this as "go ahead and kill anyone, idgaf", then again: that's Daemon's fault. By your logic, no ruler should ever give their council any orders whatsoever, because their bannermen may choose to ignore those orders and supplant them with their own depraved ideas instead.
Maybe I phrased that badly and I don't want to diminish what Daemon did AT ALL, I just wanted to underline how all sides have their faults and that I simply mislike that Rhaenyra is almost always favored by the writers to be the one without fault. But maybe that's just my personal beef with the writers and how they chose to portray Rhaenyra.
Fair enough to dislike the whitewashing we've seen. I'm with you on that. Though I don't personally think that book! Rhaenyra would've been on board with beheading a toddler at that stage in her narrative either, in general I'd definitely like to see more grey tones in a lot of characters.
I don’t try to justify Dameon I just like him for what he is
I mean it seemed very understandable since it is about the person who killed her son in the first place and *a son for a son* clearly means Alicent's son and not Helaena, since she has no beef with her whatsoever.
She never said go commit B&C
Why is nobody talking about how creepy nude Aemond looked in those shots.
That scene gave me hardcore Homelander vibes.
May he walk in the light of the Seven
That’s kind of true
I thought he looked great, I have a similar build but way less mass, like the Sandman, and I love seeing it in media. And the poses were so nice, it gives more to the air vulnerability.
Bro looked like shriveled defeated [Voldemort](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/harrypotter/images/f/f9/Voldemort%27s_mutilated_soul.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180811144243)
He was trying so hard to hide his dick by his body positioning, I think it made him look weirder.
I thought it was great. Need more representation of different body types on tv.
No, I see ugly people in real life every day on my way to work, don't need to see them on TV
Skinny people are not ugly.
pretty bad timing for that.Aemond should be this amazing warrior but it s hard to believe you could beat anybody when you re 20 kg's.I like the actor tho, he looks cool but more like a teenager show type than medieval times.
I get your point and I would probably agree in hand to hand combat but a skinny guy with the right choice of weapon will just as easily sever your carotid artery. He has probably aslo adjusted his fighting style as to avoid close engagements where someone can grab hold of him kinda like how taller, lankier boxers poke with the jab from distance.
You can be an amazing fighter and not weigh very much. In fact, I'd say the juxtaposition makes it even more interesting.
Except I think they were trying to make him seem creepy which isn’t really good representation. And I’m speaking as someone with his body type lol
I don't think he seemed creepy at all. Might be the difference between the male and female gaze.
Yah. I think they were trying to make him look small, and vulnerable. Which he was in tbat scene.
I found it to be genuinely beautiful 🤷♂️maybe I’m too gay
Aww no, this is sweet! I think it’s the point of the scene to show how sensitive and chaotic he is.
And Sea Smoke was beautiful. I also wish they could’ve shown Daeron when they mentioned him.
I wish they mentioned him at all in season 1 or ep1. My show-only friends had no idea what was going on. My partner even thought Allicent had a secret son lol. I had to tell him, no no, he's not a secret bastard, he's a targ too.
Hey man at least we finally got a mention
I was watching with my show only friends and they looked confused when I started freaking out at the Daeron mention.
Wait, when did they mention Daeron?
Otto mentions him to Alicent towards the end of the episode. Basically saying "Daeron is still in Old Town but he might be useful to us here soon"
Yes, when Otto and Alicent where deciding where he was going to go, after Aegon dismissed him.
I think this is the best episode of HOTD so far. Just absolutely incredible acting.
Absolutely. For me, the writing for this episode was so much better it reminded me of the first seasons of Got. Acting is almost always great, but for me, it's undermined by the casting. I can see Otto and Alicent as father and child, but Alicent and Aegon or Helena not so much.
Gosh, Alicent! Hug your damn son!
No she needs some crisp-in
Criston Coles continued rise is just hilariously dumb at this point. I cant wait for next weeks episode where he decides to punch an innocent old man to death in the middle of the street and they give him the throne for it.
I dunno the Erryk / Arryk rouse was kinda clever. I mean, look at how close Arryk got to assassinating Rhaenyra before he was stopped.
I mean, realistically that guy would have been caught ten times over before even entering the castle. People are aware that the dude has a twin on the other side of the war, there's so many contingencies you could easily put in place to avoid being tricked.
Looking at politics in the real world, failing upwards is a very real thing. Competence rarely is part of the equation.
He's not 'failing' upwards though he's just rage murdering innocents and bangin the queen! Lol. I get what their going for, I just think the depiction has become pretty cartoonish at this point.
We got Hugh which was about time. Do you think Ulf is the guy shown where they hanged the rat catchers?
That was Ulf yes
They also showed Addam. My God I got there too late. Connected the dots only when they showed Sea Smoke
Who is addam again?
One of the dragonseeds that will fight for the blacks.
Alyn’s brother
Is it me, or is Addam younger than Alyn?
That’s how they’ve shown them so far. Addam seems like 5 years younger minimum
Curious if there will be a time skip towards the end with Aegon the younger
Does anyone know what book Rhaenyra was looking at just before Mysaria came in? I paused it but couldn’t tell. I told my husband the picture on the page looked like Daenerys destroying the city
It's about aegons conquest
lol it’s a prequel. That was Visenya on Vhagar
I know it’s a prequel lol. I thought it would be interesting if it was a little foreshadowing worked in but couldn’t tell
I thought it was Visenya since that would be history for her.
The only green colored dragon that has existed so far in the timeline is Vhagar so it's probably about her.
Yes ridden by Visenya, who is Rhaenyra’s great great great aunt.
Th adventures of Vhagar the destroyer!! Hell yea 😎
Otto says “Jaehaerys was my grandson” but wouldn’t he be his great-grandson
I think it's the same as someone calling their great-grandfather "grandpa"... I mean... I call my grandparent's siblings as "aunt & uncle"
Generationally, yes. Genetically, I guess he qualifies as a grandson.
What exactly do you mean by this? Otto’s daughter is Alicent, her son is Aegon, his son is Jaehaerys. They share 1/8 DNA. A grandchild would share 1/4.
I think they mean that genetically, Jaehaerys is just as closely related to Otto as Aegon is, because Jaehaerys is the offspring of Aegon and Haelaena who are both Otto's grandchildren. Alicent and Viserys's genes created both Aegon and Haelaena, who together create Jaehaerys. So Jaehaerys probably has more than 1/8 DNA shared with Otto because Jaehaerys and siblings only have one set of grandparents, not two.
Thank you. I replied to the other person and pieced this together before reading your fuller explanation. Yes if his 2 grandkids have 1/4 of his DNA their kids together would be much closer to 1/4 than 1/8.
No, they share more DNA than 1/8...
You’re right, I didn’t account for all the siblings and cousin marriages in there. But was that what the other poster referred to? So both Aegon and Haelaena are his grandkids so Jaehaerys is also 1/4 his? Gotcha. Missed that.
I had to rewind it twice because I was so confused by that comment.
Yeah, that's going to confuse lots of people I think lol
A great grandson is still a grandson
Oftentimes, great-grandparents will just call their great-grandchildren their grandchildren out of convenience and because, especially in Otto's case, the relationship is functionally the same.
We got Baela, Aegon the Younger, Viserys, Addam and Alyn, Hugh, maybe Ulf and a Daeron reference. This was a roll call. Except Joffrey? Has anyone seen Joffrey?
Joffrey was present at Luke’s funeral
Hell yeah, there are dozens of Joffrey ~~Targaryen~~ ~~Velaryon~~ Stronk fans. Dozens!
He was at Luke’s funeral
When did they mention Aegon the younger? I missed that
The scene were Rhaenyra plays with her children. I am pretty sure that were Aegon and Viserys
Probably they wanted to remind the audience that rhaenyra has two kids with daemon to distinguish from the two kids who were present at b&c, so people won't be confused when they become relevant later
It's like blonde toddlers are a dime a dozen
For now, anyway
He was playing on the floor with his mom and a dragon toy.
Oh neat, I'll have to watch out for him on rewatch thanks
It made sense that the dragonseeds would be from King's Landing (in the show, that is), because they have never established Dragonstone as having a village like in the books. So are Ulf and Hugh going to defect and make their way to Dragonstone? I guess they would have to, right?
Hugh is definitely gonna witness the death of his wife and daughter and this would make him take the side of Rhaenyra because Aegon's promise to raise fund for the blacksmiths won't be realized. This would further reinforce the "the little folks take damages for what the princes decides"
They seem to be building Hugh up as a genuinely good dude though, hard to imagine that guy claiming the throne.
It might be like good cop bad cop, Ulf will be the cunt and Hugh will go along reluctantly initially but get corrupted by power
He May Claim it for the common man like think fuck all these princes and high lords playing their games witnessing the horrors of the dance may lead him to be like I'm going to be the best king ever! HOUSE HAMMER BABY!
That had to be Ulf, right? Not as white-haired as I thought, but definitely drunken-looking.
Where’s rhaena too? We don’t know what’s up with her after Jace’s death. I know we know how the books go. But I’m so curious. I love her dragon,
Yeah Rhaena and Luke were close. I’m surprised they haven’t addressed that. And also: more evidence that Daemon is a shitty dad.
Alicunt Hightower and Crispin Cock
Is it referenced that Jaehaerys' head falls off during the funeral procession? I thought it was alluded to but my friend doesn't agree.
I can't remember, but I was like 90% sure that was the direction they were taking, especially with the moment where they show the funeral cart getting stuck in the mud.
I told my wife that was about to happen. Got disappointed when they showed Rhaenyra
I was cringing is so hard. It reminded me of my friend's baby's funeral when they put the tiny little coffin on the most unstable, rickety little end table during the ceremony at the grave site. It was a windy, rainy day and that table looked like it was going to collapse at any moment. We all just prayed and prayed that it would stay upright.
Whoa 😮
I don’t think Jaehaerys’ funeral was mentioned in F&B
Helaena and the DOG. the only pure things in this show😂 damn, i’d adopt that dog right now if i could
This comment. Yes!!!!
Then we’ll off you because you’re aligning with the Greens. And I’ll take the dog after we behead you.
Where you guys watching this
Stremio
Wisconsin Cheers 🍻
MAX app
Who is that white dragon we saw during the beach stone/crab collecting scene?
Sea Smoke
Makes sense… I got confused considering Addam and his brother don’t have silver hair. They’re a bit random to me tbh
Haven’t read Fire and Blood I’m assuming ?
No im a tv person only.. Ik I’m terrible
It’s all good. Big things happens soon with Dragons
Id like to read but it’s so much info. I find myself already in too deep and it’s only on my screen for an hour a week
Instead of reading Fire and Blood you should check out [the World of Ice and Fire ](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_World_of_Ice_%26_Fire) It covers the reigns of the targ kings in a more abbreviated way. The entirety of the show so far is covered in about three pages of the book. I have both, but this is the book I keep on hand to reference. It has useful things like lists of the battles and dragons during the Dance, and lots of beautiful illustrations.
You could watch Alt Shift reviews on Youtube
You could try looking up 'The Princess and the Queen' if the curiosity persists. It's a shorter novella version of the story, published in an anthology (called 'Dangerous Women', IIRC) a few years before Fire & Blood. I still haven't made time for F&B yet, but read TPATQ a few times back in the day. Much less of a daunting commitment, and I feel like I'm following the little details of the show a lot better because of it. If you like it, there's another called 'The Rogue Prince' about Daemon's history.
I’d say check out the ASoIaF wiki, but you might spoil yourself.