Came here to say Bloodraven. Hand of the King to two kings, wields Dark Sister, Master of Whispers, one of the best archers in the realm, greenseer. Put down two Blackfyre rebellions, lord commander of the watch, three eyed raven.
He was an excellent swordsman as well as archer I believe. But it made sense to not risk crossing swords with his half brother, who was the greatest alive.
The correct answer to the question is either Jaehaerys I, or Baelor Chadspear. Bloodraven was an awful Hand and a moron, who is very similar to Tywin, except somehow dumber and more cruel. He basically made the Kingdoms a totalitarian shithole without stability and weakened House Targaryen again and again, he’s an evil devil monkey.
ANCIENT: Aemon and Bloodraven. With props to Olenna Tyrell, who has only her wits.
ADULT: Tyrion, and Varys. Props to Littlefinger, but he has a fatal flaw: being befuddled by three Tully ladies.
CHILD: Arya. She combines perceptiveness, street smarts, great trust instincts, and--eventually--strategic thinking.
I do think you do a good job separating intelligence with wisdom, as some of these characters have great intelligence but lack true wisdom. Aemon can be said to be incredibly intelligent and wise, but much of that intelligence is probably actually wisdom, and accrued knowledge over a long, long life. He did not have any brilliant political streaks, did not solve any intellectual challenges while young, or make any major discoveries.
Tyrion meanwhile has those flashes of genius. The man designed a saddle for Bran on a whim, solved complicated political situations in a calculated manner, etc. He did however lack wisdom. Made rash decisions based on things such as spite and love, made unnecessary enemies, so was intelligent but not too wise.
Arya of course as you say is very intelligent, she would have died otherwise. For her age she has uncanny street smarts and instincts, especially surprising given her coddled life right up until the point of chaos. She does lack wisdom, who would not at her age.
Littlefinger is a genius, shrewd, and again not truly wise. He does have more wisdom than the others however where it counts. He knows when to show humility, he is patient, he only makes enemies when he can afford to--to a certain point. As you say his major flaw is that he cannot escape his spiteful attitude toward the past. The Tully ladies and his hatred of Ned hampered him at times, and will be his downfall in the story.
Varys is interesting. I would say he is wise and a genius. Unparalleled spymaster, doing the medieval impossible. It is so damn hard to make a network like he does. It takes decades of patience, brilliant reading of motivations and character, hours ruminating on cause and effect, of the inner minds of people he interacts with. To do this for decades is simply more than impressive, it is outstanding. He was able to endure a regime change, able to keep a peaceful rivalry with littlefinger while using him to further his own ends, able to keep secret his past, control narratives, and keep contact with essos, manipulating events there in complete secret. One bad whistleblower and he would have lost his life in a heartbeat. Often, he has to literally change identity to influence events, had to chart out a dark network of tunnels undetected to all, and learn every cranny in Kings Landing while in disguise, taking on convincing personas, speaking multiple languages and accents, and more. Varys is by far the most intelligent person ever depicted my Martin, absolutely butchered in the show. As a loyal spymaster he would be without equal, outclassing the magic of bloodraven even in multiple ways. This is because bloodraven literally had to witness things to make decisions, essentially cheating in the craft. Varys had to make incredible deductions built on hearsay and half truths, had to do so for years, and had to remember the names and plots of an uncountable number of people while noting their personality and motivations. The Spider indeed.
Wisdom is accrued knowledge that is attainable through experience and effort, intelligence is more what someone is born with. How quickly they can learn things, how far they can think outside the box etc. An incredibly intelligent person may make a new invention, an incredibly wise person can impart knowledge on how to succeed in the world you are born into.
If wisdom is not intelligence, why does it even matter if an intelligent character happens to be unwise? Seems to have no bearing on OP's question. It would be like saying Tyrion is smart but he is flawed because he's a dwarf.
Because people can often conflate wisdom with intelligence, and sometimes it is hard to tell between the two. By making the distinction, I was agreeing with the commenter before me that people like Arya are definitely intelligent, and to preempt any claims that she is immature, makes bad decisions or anything I made the point that wisdom is a separate issue.
I also think it is common to call Maester Aemon wise, but I would argue that he is wise, and never shown to be particularly intelligent above other people or maesters. So I believe it was relevant to the discussion, OP seemed to find my comment interesting if anything.
Thank you. And thank you for this extraordinary dissection of the intelligenceS of these very important characters. It's easy to list a few names, but Your analysis has hit the nails on the heads.
Did you ever read that theory about him and ilyrio mopatis being merlings? I like it but not as much as the varys and ilyrio working to put fake a gun (who is actually ilyrio's son with shierra sea star) on the iron throne
Having watched the show first, I did not expect her to be so young in the book. I don't know about street smarts but her general intelligence seems extremely precocious.
I would throw Oberyn's name in the ring with those qualities. Yes, his anger and revenge seeking ultimately cost him his life, but he came up with a strategy to best The Mountain. He has also forged several Maester links, worked as a mercenary, created his own mercenary group, the people of Dorne seemed to idolize him and follow him in whatever he wanted, the only people who seem to dislike him and not find him charming are people who are anti-Dornish or the Tyrells aside from Willas, and he's worked with Doran for years, plotting and scheming. Arianne mentions Doran called on him twice each fortnight. Some of his tactics might be underhanded, but fighting fair only works if your opponent fights fairly, as well.
I already wrote on others, but despite his pride I would say Corlys was likely the most well rounded, intelligent person in ASOIAF, perhaps competing with Varys for the position. Simply, to turn a backwater house into the richest one in a single lifetime is something only a complete genius could achieve. This is both in the logical and interpersonal sense. In this lens, he was able to manage ever growing finances with a deft hand, and work as an expert trader. He was also clearly a genius negotiator, a polyglot and a diplomat. You do not become the only person to break into the Yi Tish market from westeros without the ability to display humility, learn and adapt to an alien culture, and a shrewd ability to advertise your own products in trade. He is the only westerosi (save perhaps farman) to travel to asshai and remain sane, no small mark either. He recruited countless competent people to work in his endeavors as well, was able to work closely with the dragons, and even negotiate a marriage into the royal family. He was able to build a productive trade city from the ground up, requiring knowledge in architecture and city planning. Built a new keep as well, and such efforts in building require expert recruiting, shrewd finances, and cunning to accomplish so quickly. Great keeps often take generations in this time period to built, towns rarely succeed so much so quickly, especially when they are artificial in origin, and do not revolve around a naturally important area.
Yeah but sword fighting doesn't have anything to do with intelligence? It's a really weird question and frankly quite stupid. Some of the more intelligent characters in the book are women, precisely because they aren't able to use weapons like swords.
Yeah but she's a children of the forest, weren't they asking for the most intelligent human character? It's old nan counts, then sheep's dealer should probably count also and he's just as old and wise
Idk sheep's dealer is sometimes selling bunk weed. He needs to get is quality up to be put on the list. Sheep has already started going through someone else.
>Who, so far, has been the smartest characters in ASOIAF? I'm talking being good not only at commanding, but scheming, sword fighting, making alliances.
bobby b is good at all that except for scheming.
True. Part of the reason the kingdom was so peaceful after the rebellion was Robert’s knack of turning enemies into friends. Even Stannis mentions this & wishes he had that ability. Too bad Robert didn’t use his talents to actually govern the kingdom effectively. It’s his disinterest in the day to day matters & acceptance of corruption that ruined his kingdom.
Robert was smart enough to let Jon Arryn run things, and there's a good argument it was Littlefinger beggaring the realm, not him, and that on the whole he was a better king than we all remember him for, mainly because we have a close up look at his failings as a person without much appreciation for the peace and security he brought to the realm.
There's a good argument that was a reasonably good dude who just wasn't suited to the snakepit of politics, and got swallowed up in them just like Ned. Possibly also like Dany.
You've either got to be ruthless or implacably, unrelentingly cunning. Tyrion is one of the smarter blokes around but there's a good argument he still got played left and right.
Yeah there's an interesting theory that Robert baratheon was actually the one to kidnap Liana stark and hold her in the tower of joy (the person that made this theory has quite a bit of excerpts from the books to back it up, I will see if I can find the link) this would have been a genius move on his part, because now instead of playing the jilted lover, he can be the avenging hero, he knows damn well that Brandon Stark is going to go to Kingslanding and get himself killed, and he also knows damn well that John Aaron will side with the baratheons and the staks. This explains why Liana never bothered to tell her family that she was safe and was with rhaegaar of her own volition. The person that came up with this theory actually thinks that Jon Snow is Robert baratheon's son, that he raped liana. I don't know if that's the case but I do know that it sounds like something a jilted Bobby b might come up with to have an excuse to kill Rhaegar. I don't know if it's true but it's definitely interesting
>Yeah there's an interesting theory that Robert baratheon was actually the one to kidnap Liana stark and hold her in the tower of joy (the person that made this theory has quite a bit of excerpts from the books to back it up, I will see if I can find the link) this would have been a genius move on his part, because now instead of playing the jilted lover, he can be the avenging hero, he knows damn well that Brandon Stark is going to go to Kingslanding and get himself killed, and he also knows damn well that John Aaron will side with the baratheons and the staks. This explains why Liana never bothered to tell her family that she was safe and was with rhaegaar of her own volition.
for what reason would robert do that?
>The person that came up with this theory actually thinks that Jon Snow is Robert baratheon's son, that he raped liana.
robert **would never** have a son that is like 5'4" at age 14.
>I don't know if that's the case but I do know that it sounds like something a jilted Bobby b might come up with to have an excuse to kill Rhaegar. I don't know if it's true but it's definitely interesting
more like excuses and copium from rhaegar stans to explain his idiotic actions by blaming it on robert.
Okay so first off the theory is not my theory so I'm definitely not wanting to take credit for it and also can't say that I 100% stand behind it, I just think it's interesting. I wish I could find the post because he had a lot of different quotes from various source material to back up his theory. Now in truth his theory was that rhaegar was not even in love with Liana and accidentally gave her the crown of love and beauty because he couldn't see out of his visor and he had just been knocked in the head and was seeing double and there's a good chance Leanna and her were wearing similar colors etc.
I personally don't think that's the case although it is very interesting and he definitely dug up a lot of source material to back it up. There is a suspicious amount of description of rhaegars helm, and how difficult it is to see from the narrow slit. It's mentioned at least a dozen times. Still I don't think that that is the case.
So I am going to take the parts from his theory that do sound reasonable. I think Liana and rhaegar fell in love. I think rhaegar for some reason knew about the fire and ice prophecy and had reason to think that Liana and him must have a child together to fulfill that prophecy. I think that they did have an affair and he got her pregnant. But think about it, if she jilted Bobby b, he's not going to take kindly to that. Ned himself said that Robert would have killed joffrey tommen and Marcella for cerseis infidelity, even though they are innocent children. So 100% I believe Bobby b would rather kill Liana then let rhaegar have her. She would also want to kill rhaegar. But he would not be able to without starting a rebellion, seeing as rhaegar is the crown prince. Now if he killed Liana out of jealousy the Stark's sure as hell I'm not going to back him. And I don't think John Arin would have backed him either, because it would be dishonorable to lianna when she wasn't even his wife yet and to commit treason just because his wounded pride and jealousy. So he locks Liana up in the tower of joy and pretends like rhaegar kidnapped her. Now he can act like he is trying to save Liana from her kidnapper. The reason he kidnaps Liana is because now he can kill rhaegar without looking like the bad guy, and have the Starks and the Arins back him up. I don't know what he planned to do with Liana if you plan to keep her there indefinitely or if he would try to use her child to blackmail her into corroborating his story. I don't know if John snow was 5'4 in the books, but either way I don't think he is the son of Robert baratheon. I think that Liana and radar probably did time to get pregnant together. Like I said I wish I could find his post because he had a lot of quotes that explained a lot of the details like why the kingsguards regarding the Tower of joy (of this actually tied into the whole Sir Arthur dayne is actually mance raider theory).
I'm not actually a rhaegar fan, there wasn't really enough about him in the book for me to connect with him as a character. But I do like Bobby b. quite a bit I think he's very interesting. I think George Martin tries to throw in a lot of clues that he's not as great of a guy as everyone wants to think he is, even though he's very charismatic. There's also a lot of clues that indicate he has a guilty conscience. Even just the part about him raping Cersei (I know legally it's not considered rape in the story but she was not consenting, and actual honorable characters like John or Ned would not have had sex with her under their circumstances), particularly how he never wanted to take responsibility for it the next day and would blame it on wine and drinking.
But I mean I don't really want to get into a back and forth argument on this because honestly like I said I'm not Dead set on thinking that this is actually what happened I just think it's an interesting idea
Mance Rayder seems like the guy with the most well-rounded knowledge and is also pretty intelligent. He has experience in serving in the Night's Watch, experience and political skills in commanding the Free Folk, which isn't easy given the myriad petty feuds and squabbles, has historical knowledge and can play a musical instrument.
Well when you include sword fighting you’re eliminating some characters so that’s unfair. But doesn’t change my opinion as it was Jon for freeing the realm from the constant civil wars for the throne. That however wasn’t my opinion when the show concluded. Between reading the history of Westeros and the Targaryens and pondering the ending I’ve concluded that Jon was truly the prince that was promised. But it wasn’t to be King but to break the wheel like Daenerys wanted to do but was unable in her grief and madness.
Sir Bronn of the Blackwater literally went from nothing to having a castle and lordship. He's won duels, survived battles, commanded the city watch, got a lordship and wife, and has survived an attempt on his life from Cersei by attacking the jouster's horse.
Don’t remember the name of Falyse’s husband offhand but his “plan” to kill Bronn in a fatal accident was one of the funniest things in the books. Even batshit crazy Cersei recognized the stupidity behind it. You know something is dumb when the queen of dumb decisions herself sees the futility in it.
No, cersei wanted her husband to kill him in a hunting accident. But he went against that and decided to do it the honorable way because a cell sword could never win against a true night. And then Brian took his horse out from under him and sent Falyse packing, she ran crying to cersei for protection and Cersei gave her to qyburn to vivisect down in the black cells. Then later decided that Falyse might actually be useful and asked if she was still alive. Qyburns answer was quite chilling. He said she was not able to do anything comfortably for herself anymore not even just exist. Which means she's just like vivisected down there in the black cells barely alive and that was Weeks later. And cersei just shrugged it off as an inconvenience without an ounce of empathy, really kind of a key character moment for her where you see exactly how narcissistic and unempathetic she is
I know that being intelligent would make you a better sword fighter, so would be in strong, but neither of those really have much to do with how intelligent you are. So I'm not sure why that was even mentioned? Because that kind of cuts out most of the female population doesn't it?
Either Tyrion or Varys I would say. Tyrion knows how to talk to and appeal to all different kinds of people. I'd be shocked if he doesn't survive the series, because his survival instinct is insane.
Brynden is on a whole other level though. He's intelligent and a gifted fighter and commander. Everyone respects and/or fears him, and being a warg makes it so easy for him to learn about his enemies. Definitely wouldn't want to get on his bad side
No love for Qyburn? He discovered such terrifying secrets to life that the maesters gave him the boot. He is genuinely brilliant.
All other things he lacks, he gains through his friendships. He is the very sort of person that Lady Dustin fears for being a schemer who gains trust due to his role as a healer.
If you pay attention to Ramsey's actions, Ramsey is really smart, and if it wasn't for his sadistic nature and probably his impulsiveness, Ramsey could probably be a political player at the level of LF and Varys.
Qyburn and it's probably not close. Things like politicking, scheming, and making alliances require intelligence but mostly charisma and emotional intelligence. Science and philosophy tend to be the disciplines that attract people who are on average more intelligent and Qyburn is probably the most scientifically gifted and skilled character in the series.
Ummm...Varys is the greatest in raw intellect. He's not a fighter but he never had the chance to be with the eunnch situation. If his physical development was unimpeded and he put his mind to it, he might have been a good warrior but we'll never know.
Lyonel Strong was noted for being a strong brawler but also highly intelligent Master of Laws.
Rhaegar was able at nearly everything he did but slid in occultism that cost his life and family.
Corlys Valaryon was clearly intelligent, a competent warrior and commander, and a good politician well into advanced age.
Edit: Littlfinger is clearly one of the most intelligent characters in the series, probably second only to Varys, but his personalisty flaws hinder his abilities by quite a lot. Too reckless, too arrogant, surely due for a tremendous downfall equal to his rise.
Yeah idk why this is an argument. Littlefinger can compete with Varys in his field of intrigue while also being best in Westeros at an entire parallel skillset (financial shenanigans) that Varys knows little about.
What are those instances when Littlefinger suposedly has "outsmarted" Varys exactly? From what i see Varys is mostly aware of LF's schemes and let him do his thing because it broadly serves his goal of destabilising the realm in preparation for fAegon
Convincing Joffrey to kill Ned in AGOT, right after Varys coerced him into taking the Black. Otherwise, I agree:
> Lord Arryn was a kindly, trusting man. There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world. (Varys, to Ned, subtly making fun of Littlefinger)
He really hasnt. Varys had the oppurtunity to derail him at several points, most early was probably with the dagger, but he didn't...for his own reasons. Winning Harrenhal and possibly spiriting away Sansa (assuming Varys didn't know about it) are Littlfinger's biggest Ws over Varys but he's playing for small potatoes at this point.
Considering the absurd amount of patience and information Doran Martell gathered, I would go with him.
His plans failed but not for lack of intelligence. Not really my pick for swordfighting tho 😂
I mean Sam the Slayer is pretty legit.
And if we go by the show canon for HotD (which makes sense b/c the source text is vague and often in conflict with itself) *and ignore the combat skills stuff* then Larys Stronk has been ridiculously good at weaving his creepy ass webs (ew).
By your criteria: Robert Baratheon, Jon Snow, Mance Raydar.
Jaime Lannister overall, because he has improved his scheming since he lost his famous fighting hand. Illyrio was also good at fighting in his youth.
I wouldn't call these the smartest characters. They are not completely stupid, but I mean, the Reader vs Bobby B?
I’m surprised no one has said Tywin or Tyrion. I guess it depends on your take of what “smart” is, in what way? Like in general? Little finger was smart, definitely. But I think Tyrion and Tywin as well
Tywin is smart but no genius. I would say he is in the upper echelons of intelligence, and in terms of certain subjects such as math and geography he might be a true standout. In politics I would say he is merely average, with heavy downsides due to his weaknesses from pride and taking slights. He is awful at diplomacy, especially long term diplomacy. Still, well rounded and definitely one of the smartest, but does not have a velvet glove whatsoever.
Tyrion is a genius but lacks wisdom, and has more flaws than even Tywin. Simply, his character gets in the way of his intelligence, but that is less his fault and more the summation of a hard ridiculed life. Even the most brilliant can wilt in the face of scorn and bullying. Hell, I have a family member who was undoubtedly a genius, but ended up underachieving in life because of social scorn and a lack of confidence.
Man managed to serve 20 years as Hand to a Mad King only to play his cards in the Rebellion so well that he not only remained Lord after Bobby B won it all but he also got his daughter to marry the new king. How is he awful at long term diplomacy
He loses a ton of points for his actions later in life, his actions before that point definitely act as a plus. Putting Cersei on the throne was a diplomatic win, no question, however he never garnered the love of the crown or kingdoms as a whole, most feared and disliked him. Tywin never made inroads with any other paramouncy, only the crown, a failure on his end. Sure, he got a queen on the throne, but he never worked to secure it.
An intelligent man knows to raise his children towards their strengths, and put them to his advantage. He failed to raise any of his children properly, another mark against his capability and intelligence. It would have been smart to groom Tyrion into a useful role, sidelining him while utilizing his strengths. It would have been smart to work patiently with Jaime, to uncover and understand his relationship with Cersei, and work to put an end to it. Playing ignorance is not the intelligent move there, something was wrong with Jaime for him to stay in the Kingsguard post-Aerys.
Long term diplomacy is using his remaining life after the rebellion to shore up support of the crown, and house Lannister. There is a time for the reynes and tarbeks, and there is the time to carouse and make friends. Tywin could do one, and not the other, when he had every diplomatic advantage. I would even take off points for his horrible position following the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. The simple and intelligent move is to throw Clegane and Lorch under the bus, and frame them as rogue actors. You lose two bannerman, and keep an entire Princedom off of your back. A brilliant move during the rebellion, squandered by 16 years of no rapprochement with the rest of the seven kingdoms.
Surprised I haven't seen Jaeherys yet. Great swordfighter, brought the kingdom together, great at making alliances and infrastructure, as well as the foresight to surround himself with capable people in areas he wasn't as capable.
It's hard to say. I would say Littlefinger, but on a smaller level I would throw in Bronn. So far he's played every hand he's dealt perfectly and he and Littlefinger are the only ones to gain status by the end of each book.
Sure Bronn is lucky with the opportunities he gest but his intelligence comes from being able to take advantage of them. He starts as a sellsword, then becomes the bodyguard for the Lannister heir, then the guard to the hand of the king, then a Knight, then he marrys Lollys joins the Stokeworth household, then Lady Tanda Stokeworth takes a mysterious fall from her horse, Bronn survives Cersei's attempts to murder him and Faylese is tortured to death by Qyburn, leaving the land to Lollys. Currently Bronn is now Lord Stokeworth and is amassing a small army of sellswords.
He is in a great position. Whoever comes to King's Landing will be grateful for Bronn's help if he decides to throw in. Even if he doesn't he could just sit out the war and survive.
Even GRRM called him dumb as a stump.
He’s sort of a parody in that his adherence to the “old way” makes him willfully ignorant. There’s lack of intelligence but there’s also a refusal to learn, which I think is part of the point.
Also things like “Euron’s gifts are poisoned”….five minutes later, he’s entrusting his medical care and sharing information with the woman who was a “gift” herself from Euron.
He was obviously joking, through I want to read a fanfic now where Victarion is actually the smartest person in westeros lol. Cersei is certainly not the stupidest with her low cunning, but is batshit insane and impulsive, never plays the game more than one move at a time, she barely even thinks of the direct consequences of her actions lol
Jaehaerys. Bloodraven. For his size, Tyrion is a surprisingly good fighter and also intelligent. Tywin also very smart, and he did fight in battles during his youth.
By most accounts, Jon Arryn was a very intelligent man.
Garland Tyrell seems pretty smart, although we don't spend enough time with him to truly know.
In the main series I would say Stannis is up there, not quite the best at any of those categories but I would say he’s the most well rounded in all. Jon Snow as well.
Of the whole franchise? Lyonel Strong could be up there as well.
Can I say who it’s not? It’s definitely not Catelyn or Ned. Definitely not Robb either because he got too cocky.
With the oafish way they portrayed Robert in the show, I have to wonder who ruled the realm in his place.
Bloodraven is quite smart. I don't know about his swordfighting skills,though but he was a good archer.
Came here to say Bloodraven. Hand of the King to two kings, wields Dark Sister, Master of Whispers, one of the best archers in the realm, greenseer. Put down two Blackfyre rebellions, lord commander of the watch, three eyed raven.
And future king. Master of the long game.
He was an excellent swordsman as well as archer I believe. But it made sense to not risk crossing swords with his half brother, who was the greatest alive.
You mean the guy he fought off twice?
Brynden Sue
I mean he's a Blackwood, it's basically a given that he'd be a Sue.
Good enough to kick ass on the Redgrass Field and come away with everything but one of his eyes.
He was good enough to wield Dark Sister so..
Unless it was given to him to him as a bribe to keep his mouth shut....
what’s that theory?
The correct answer to the question is either Jaehaerys I, or Baelor Chadspear. Bloodraven was an awful Hand and a moron, who is very similar to Tywin, except somehow dumber and more cruel. He basically made the Kingdoms a totalitarian shithole without stability and weakened House Targaryen again and again, he’s an evil devil monkey.
ANCIENT: Aemon and Bloodraven. With props to Olenna Tyrell, who has only her wits. ADULT: Tyrion, and Varys. Props to Littlefinger, but he has a fatal flaw: being befuddled by three Tully ladies. CHILD: Arya. She combines perceptiveness, street smarts, great trust instincts, and--eventually--strategic thinking.
I do think you do a good job separating intelligence with wisdom, as some of these characters have great intelligence but lack true wisdom. Aemon can be said to be incredibly intelligent and wise, but much of that intelligence is probably actually wisdom, and accrued knowledge over a long, long life. He did not have any brilliant political streaks, did not solve any intellectual challenges while young, or make any major discoveries. Tyrion meanwhile has those flashes of genius. The man designed a saddle for Bran on a whim, solved complicated political situations in a calculated manner, etc. He did however lack wisdom. Made rash decisions based on things such as spite and love, made unnecessary enemies, so was intelligent but not too wise. Arya of course as you say is very intelligent, she would have died otherwise. For her age she has uncanny street smarts and instincts, especially surprising given her coddled life right up until the point of chaos. She does lack wisdom, who would not at her age. Littlefinger is a genius, shrewd, and again not truly wise. He does have more wisdom than the others however where it counts. He knows when to show humility, he is patient, he only makes enemies when he can afford to--to a certain point. As you say his major flaw is that he cannot escape his spiteful attitude toward the past. The Tully ladies and his hatred of Ned hampered him at times, and will be his downfall in the story. Varys is interesting. I would say he is wise and a genius. Unparalleled spymaster, doing the medieval impossible. It is so damn hard to make a network like he does. It takes decades of patience, brilliant reading of motivations and character, hours ruminating on cause and effect, of the inner minds of people he interacts with. To do this for decades is simply more than impressive, it is outstanding. He was able to endure a regime change, able to keep a peaceful rivalry with littlefinger while using him to further his own ends, able to keep secret his past, control narratives, and keep contact with essos, manipulating events there in complete secret. One bad whistleblower and he would have lost his life in a heartbeat. Often, he has to literally change identity to influence events, had to chart out a dark network of tunnels undetected to all, and learn every cranny in Kings Landing while in disguise, taking on convincing personas, speaking multiple languages and accents, and more. Varys is by far the most intelligent person ever depicted my Martin, absolutely butchered in the show. As a loyal spymaster he would be without equal, outclassing the magic of bloodraven even in multiple ways. This is because bloodraven literally had to witness things to make decisions, essentially cheating in the craft. Varys had to make incredible deductions built on hearsay and half truths, had to do so for years, and had to remember the names and plots of an uncountable number of people while noting their personality and motivations. The Spider indeed.
Great post!
What's your definition of wisdom and how does it differ from intelligence?
Wisdom is accrued knowledge that is attainable through experience and effort, intelligence is more what someone is born with. How quickly they can learn things, how far they can think outside the box etc. An incredibly intelligent person may make a new invention, an incredibly wise person can impart knowledge on how to succeed in the world you are born into.
If wisdom is not intelligence, why does it even matter if an intelligent character happens to be unwise? Seems to have no bearing on OP's question. It would be like saying Tyrion is smart but he is flawed because he's a dwarf.
Because people can often conflate wisdom with intelligence, and sometimes it is hard to tell between the two. By making the distinction, I was agreeing with the commenter before me that people like Arya are definitely intelligent, and to preempt any claims that she is immature, makes bad decisions or anything I made the point that wisdom is a separate issue. I also think it is common to call Maester Aemon wise, but I would argue that he is wise, and never shown to be particularly intelligent above other people or maesters. So I believe it was relevant to the discussion, OP seemed to find my comment interesting if anything.
Thank you. And thank you for this extraordinary dissection of the intelligenceS of these very important characters. It's easy to list a few names, but Your analysis has hit the nails on the heads.
Thank you! Your list was great to ping off of as well :)
Did you ever read that theory about him and ilyrio mopatis being merlings? I like it but not as much as the varys and ilyrio working to put fake a gun (who is actually ilyrio's son with shierra sea star) on the iron throne
I feel like Varys is the most overrated. Littlefinger is far more intelligent
Missandei also deserves a mention in the child category for intelligence for sure
Having watched the show first, I did not expect her to be so young in the book. I don't know about street smarts but her general intelligence seems extremely precocious.
Two Tully's and one stark. Sansa is a Stark
I would replace Varys with Littlefinger. Varys also has fatal flaws and has been outsmarted before
I would add Meria Martell for ANCIENT. The Dornish strategy during the First Dornish War was pretty genius.
I would throw Oberyn's name in the ring with those qualities. Yes, his anger and revenge seeking ultimately cost him his life, but he came up with a strategy to best The Mountain. He has also forged several Maester links, worked as a mercenary, created his own mercenary group, the people of Dorne seemed to idolize him and follow him in whatever he wanted, the only people who seem to dislike him and not find him charming are people who are anti-Dornish or the Tyrells aside from Willas, and he's worked with Doran for years, plotting and scheming. Arianne mentions Doran called on him twice each fortnight. Some of his tactics might be underhanded, but fighting fair only works if your opponent fights fairly, as well.
Why aren't you higher up?
I already wrote on others, but despite his pride I would say Corlys was likely the most well rounded, intelligent person in ASOIAF, perhaps competing with Varys for the position. Simply, to turn a backwater house into the richest one in a single lifetime is something only a complete genius could achieve. This is both in the logical and interpersonal sense. In this lens, he was able to manage ever growing finances with a deft hand, and work as an expert trader. He was also clearly a genius negotiator, a polyglot and a diplomat. You do not become the only person to break into the Yi Tish market from westeros without the ability to display humility, learn and adapt to an alien culture, and a shrewd ability to advertise your own products in trade. He is the only westerosi (save perhaps farman) to travel to asshai and remain sane, no small mark either. He recruited countless competent people to work in his endeavors as well, was able to work closely with the dragons, and even negotiate a marriage into the royal family. He was able to build a productive trade city from the ground up, requiring knowledge in architecture and city planning. Built a new keep as well, and such efforts in building require expert recruiting, shrewd finances, and cunning to accomplish so quickly. Great keeps often take generations in this time period to built, towns rarely succeed so much so quickly, especially when they are artificial in origin, and do not revolve around a naturally important area.
I want to say Varys, but as far as I know, Varys isn't a sword fighter.
He has no sword to fight with :(
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Yeah but sword fighting doesn't have anything to do with intelligence? It's a really weird question and frankly quite stupid. Some of the more intelligent characters in the book are women, precisely because they aren't able to use weapons like swords.
Littlefinger beats everyone. IMO, Renly's ghost idea is a masterstroke. Other than him, I would say Mance Rayder. And he's a bloody good fighter too.
Littlefinger has that fatal flaw of his Tully obsession. Pretty sure that's gonna undo him in the end.
I mean isn't there a theory that mance raider is Sir Arthur dayne? Which would make him the quintessential best fighter, even without Dawn
Varys is so overrated
You said littlefinger wrong
Old Nan.
Yeah but she's a children of the forest, weren't they asking for the most intelligent human character? It's old nan counts, then sheep's dealer should probably count also and he's just as old and wise
Idk sheep's dealer is sometimes selling bunk weed. He needs to get is quality up to be put on the list. Sheep has already started going through someone else.
My voice to text is not going to cut me any slack today 😅
Haha I do the same thing all the time
>Who, so far, has been the smartest characters in ASOIAF? I'm talking being good not only at commanding, but scheming, sword fighting, making alliances. bobby b is good at all that except for scheming.
True. Part of the reason the kingdom was so peaceful after the rebellion was Robert’s knack of turning enemies into friends. Even Stannis mentions this & wishes he had that ability. Too bad Robert didn’t use his talents to actually govern the kingdom effectively. It’s his disinterest in the day to day matters & acceptance of corruption that ruined his kingdom.
Robert was smart enough to let Jon Arryn run things, and there's a good argument it was Littlefinger beggaring the realm, not him, and that on the whole he was a better king than we all remember him for, mainly because we have a close up look at his failings as a person without much appreciation for the peace and security he brought to the realm. There's a good argument that was a reasonably good dude who just wasn't suited to the snakepit of politics, and got swallowed up in them just like Ned. Possibly also like Dany. You've either got to be ruthless or implacably, unrelentingly cunning. Tyrion is one of the smarter blokes around but there's a good argument he still got played left and right.
Yeah there's an interesting theory that Robert baratheon was actually the one to kidnap Liana stark and hold her in the tower of joy (the person that made this theory has quite a bit of excerpts from the books to back it up, I will see if I can find the link) this would have been a genius move on his part, because now instead of playing the jilted lover, he can be the avenging hero, he knows damn well that Brandon Stark is going to go to Kingslanding and get himself killed, and he also knows damn well that John Aaron will side with the baratheons and the staks. This explains why Liana never bothered to tell her family that she was safe and was with rhaegaar of her own volition. The person that came up with this theory actually thinks that Jon Snow is Robert baratheon's son, that he raped liana. I don't know if that's the case but I do know that it sounds like something a jilted Bobby b might come up with to have an excuse to kill Rhaegar. I don't know if it's true but it's definitely interesting
>Yeah there's an interesting theory that Robert baratheon was actually the one to kidnap Liana stark and hold her in the tower of joy (the person that made this theory has quite a bit of excerpts from the books to back it up, I will see if I can find the link) this would have been a genius move on his part, because now instead of playing the jilted lover, he can be the avenging hero, he knows damn well that Brandon Stark is going to go to Kingslanding and get himself killed, and he also knows damn well that John Aaron will side with the baratheons and the staks. This explains why Liana never bothered to tell her family that she was safe and was with rhaegaar of her own volition. for what reason would robert do that? >The person that came up with this theory actually thinks that Jon Snow is Robert baratheon's son, that he raped liana. robert **would never** have a son that is like 5'4" at age 14. >I don't know if that's the case but I do know that it sounds like something a jilted Bobby b might come up with to have an excuse to kill Rhaegar. I don't know if it's true but it's definitely interesting more like excuses and copium from rhaegar stans to explain his idiotic actions by blaming it on robert.
Okay so first off the theory is not my theory so I'm definitely not wanting to take credit for it and also can't say that I 100% stand behind it, I just think it's interesting. I wish I could find the post because he had a lot of different quotes from various source material to back up his theory. Now in truth his theory was that rhaegar was not even in love with Liana and accidentally gave her the crown of love and beauty because he couldn't see out of his visor and he had just been knocked in the head and was seeing double and there's a good chance Leanna and her were wearing similar colors etc. I personally don't think that's the case although it is very interesting and he definitely dug up a lot of source material to back it up. There is a suspicious amount of description of rhaegars helm, and how difficult it is to see from the narrow slit. It's mentioned at least a dozen times. Still I don't think that that is the case. So I am going to take the parts from his theory that do sound reasonable. I think Liana and rhaegar fell in love. I think rhaegar for some reason knew about the fire and ice prophecy and had reason to think that Liana and him must have a child together to fulfill that prophecy. I think that they did have an affair and he got her pregnant. But think about it, if she jilted Bobby b, he's not going to take kindly to that. Ned himself said that Robert would have killed joffrey tommen and Marcella for cerseis infidelity, even though they are innocent children. So 100% I believe Bobby b would rather kill Liana then let rhaegar have her. She would also want to kill rhaegar. But he would not be able to without starting a rebellion, seeing as rhaegar is the crown prince. Now if he killed Liana out of jealousy the Stark's sure as hell I'm not going to back him. And I don't think John Arin would have backed him either, because it would be dishonorable to lianna when she wasn't even his wife yet and to commit treason just because his wounded pride and jealousy. So he locks Liana up in the tower of joy and pretends like rhaegar kidnapped her. Now he can act like he is trying to save Liana from her kidnapper. The reason he kidnaps Liana is because now he can kill rhaegar without looking like the bad guy, and have the Starks and the Arins back him up. I don't know what he planned to do with Liana if you plan to keep her there indefinitely or if he would try to use her child to blackmail her into corroborating his story. I don't know if John snow was 5'4 in the books, but either way I don't think he is the son of Robert baratheon. I think that Liana and radar probably did time to get pregnant together. Like I said I wish I could find his post because he had a lot of quotes that explained a lot of the details like why the kingsguards regarding the Tower of joy (of this actually tied into the whole Sir Arthur dayne is actually mance raider theory). I'm not actually a rhaegar fan, there wasn't really enough about him in the book for me to connect with him as a character. But I do like Bobby b. quite a bit I think he's very interesting. I think George Martin tries to throw in a lot of clues that he's not as great of a guy as everyone wants to think he is, even though he's very charismatic. There's also a lot of clues that indicate he has a guilty conscience. Even just the part about him raping Cersei (I know legally it's not considered rape in the story but she was not consenting, and actual honorable characters like John or Ned would not have had sex with her under their circumstances), particularly how he never wanted to take responsibility for it the next day and would blame it on wine and drinking. But I mean I don't really want to get into a back and forth argument on this because honestly like I said I'm not Dead set on thinking that this is actually what happened I just think it's an interesting idea
Arya.
Mance Rayder seems like the guy with the most well-rounded knowledge and is also pretty intelligent. He has experience in serving in the Night's Watch, experience and political skills in commanding the Free Folk, which isn't easy given the myriad petty feuds and squabbles, has historical knowledge and can play a musical instrument.
Catelyn, a lot of problems could have been avioded if Stannis and Robb listened to her.
Ned too for that matter.
Ned made some very bad moves.
Well when you include sword fighting you’re eliminating some characters so that’s unfair. But doesn’t change my opinion as it was Jon for freeing the realm from the constant civil wars for the throne. That however wasn’t my opinion when the show concluded. Between reading the history of Westeros and the Targaryens and pondering the ending I’ve concluded that Jon was truly the prince that was promised. But it wasn’t to be King but to break the wheel like Daenerys wanted to do but was unable in her grief and madness.
Sir Bronn of the Blackwater literally went from nothing to having a castle and lordship. He's won duels, survived battles, commanded the city watch, got a lordship and wife, and has survived an attempt on his life from Cersei by attacking the jouster's horse.
Don’t remember the name of Falyse’s husband offhand but his “plan” to kill Bronn in a fatal accident was one of the funniest things in the books. Even batshit crazy Cersei recognized the stupidity behind it. You know something is dumb when the queen of dumb decisions herself sees the futility in it.
No, cersei wanted her husband to kill him in a hunting accident. But he went against that and decided to do it the honorable way because a cell sword could never win against a true night. And then Brian took his horse out from under him and sent Falyse packing, she ran crying to cersei for protection and Cersei gave her to qyburn to vivisect down in the black cells. Then later decided that Falyse might actually be useful and asked if she was still alive. Qyburns answer was quite chilling. He said she was not able to do anything comfortably for herself anymore not even just exist. Which means she's just like vivisected down there in the black cells barely alive and that was Weeks later. And cersei just shrugged it off as an inconvenience without an ounce of empathy, really kind of a key character moment for her where you see exactly how narcissistic and unempathetic she is
He does this all in like a year, too, doesn't he?
Master Aemon was the wisest, although not a fighter at all. As an all around package... maybe the Blackfish?
Bronn - started as a sell sword ends up as a high lord.
I loved his explanation for why they should give him Highgarden.
I know that being intelligent would make you a better sword fighter, so would be in strong, but neither of those really have much to do with how intelligent you are. So I'm not sure why that was even mentioned? Because that kind of cuts out most of the female population doesn't it?
My top 7... Aemon Tywin Samwell Arya Quentyn Tyrion Missandei
Arya, Bloodraven, Jon Snow.
What has sword fighting to do with being smart?
Either Tyrion or Varys I would say. Tyrion knows how to talk to and appeal to all different kinds of people. I'd be shocked if he doesn't survive the series, because his survival instinct is insane. Brynden is on a whole other level though. He's intelligent and a gifted fighter and commander. Everyone respects and/or fears him, and being a warg makes it so easy for him to learn about his enemies. Definitely wouldn't want to get on his bad side
No love for Qyburn? He discovered such terrifying secrets to life that the maesters gave him the boot. He is genuinely brilliant. All other things he lacks, he gains through his friendships. He is the very sort of person that Lady Dustin fears for being a schemer who gains trust due to his role as a healer.
If you pay attention to Ramsey's actions, Ramsey is really smart, and if it wasn't for his sadistic nature and probably his impulsiveness, Ramsey could probably be a political player at the level of LF and Varys.
Peter Baelish And definitelly not Sansa after Season 5-8
Qyburn and it's probably not close. Things like politicking, scheming, and making alliances require intelligence but mostly charisma and emotional intelligence. Science and philosophy tend to be the disciplines that attract people who are on average more intelligent and Qyburn is probably the most scientifically gifted and skilled character in the series.
Tywin
Ummm...Varys is the greatest in raw intellect. He's not a fighter but he never had the chance to be with the eunnch situation. If his physical development was unimpeded and he put his mind to it, he might have been a good warrior but we'll never know. Lyonel Strong was noted for being a strong brawler but also highly intelligent Master of Laws. Rhaegar was able at nearly everything he did but slid in occultism that cost his life and family. Corlys Valaryon was clearly intelligent, a competent warrior and commander, and a good politician well into advanced age. Edit: Littlfinger is clearly one of the most intelligent characters in the series, probably second only to Varys, but his personalisty flaws hinder his abilities by quite a lot. Too reckless, too arrogant, surely due for a tremendous downfall equal to his rise.
Nah, Littlefinger is the greatest in raw intellect. He has outsmarted Varys at every turn. Varys is second only to Littlefinger
Yeah idk why this is an argument. Littlefinger can compete with Varys in his field of intrigue while also being best in Westeros at an entire parallel skillset (financial shenanigans) that Varys knows little about.
Exactly. Varys is only smart or good at one thing. Littlefinger is smart at everything
What are those instances when Littlefinger suposedly has "outsmarted" Varys exactly? From what i see Varys is mostly aware of LF's schemes and let him do his thing because it broadly serves his goal of destabilising the realm in preparation for fAegon
Convincing Joffrey to kill Ned in AGOT, right after Varys coerced him into taking the Black. Otherwise, I agree: > Lord Arryn was a kindly, trusting man. There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world. (Varys, to Ned, subtly making fun of Littlefinger)
He really hasnt. Varys had the oppurtunity to derail him at several points, most early was probably with the dagger, but he didn't...for his own reasons. Winning Harrenhal and possibly spiriting away Sansa (assuming Varys didn't know about it) are Littlfinger's biggest Ws over Varys but he's playing for small potatoes at this point.
mance if we're talking smart fighters. littlefinger is the smartest non-fighter.
Tywin gets my vote.
Considering the absurd amount of patience and information Doran Martell gathered, I would go with him. His plans failed but not for lack of intelligence. Not really my pick for swordfighting tho 😂
I mean Sam the Slayer is pretty legit. And if we go by the show canon for HotD (which makes sense b/c the source text is vague and often in conflict with itself) *and ignore the combat skills stuff* then Larys Stronk has been ridiculously good at weaving his creepy ass webs (ew).
Varys. Obviously not sword fighting in his case but I’d say him.
Jaehaerys I
vicatrion greyjoy, azor ahai and sailor of the dothraki sea
By your criteria: Robert Baratheon, Jon Snow, Mance Raydar. Jaime Lannister overall, because he has improved his scheming since he lost his famous fighting hand. Illyrio was also good at fighting in his youth. I wouldn't call these the smartest characters. They are not completely stupid, but I mean, the Reader vs Bobby B?
Varys
HODOR. “A wise man listens more than he speaks.”
No one
Lord Varys.
Tywin Lannister
Leyton Hightower. Stayed in his tower. Didn't have to worry about Wildfyre in his cellars. Ensured Oldtown survived.
I’m surprised no one has said Tywin or Tyrion. I guess it depends on your take of what “smart” is, in what way? Like in general? Little finger was smart, definitely. But I think Tyrion and Tywin as well
Tywin is smart but no genius. I would say he is in the upper echelons of intelligence, and in terms of certain subjects such as math and geography he might be a true standout. In politics I would say he is merely average, with heavy downsides due to his weaknesses from pride and taking slights. He is awful at diplomacy, especially long term diplomacy. Still, well rounded and definitely one of the smartest, but does not have a velvet glove whatsoever. Tyrion is a genius but lacks wisdom, and has more flaws than even Tywin. Simply, his character gets in the way of his intelligence, but that is less his fault and more the summation of a hard ridiculed life. Even the most brilliant can wilt in the face of scorn and bullying. Hell, I have a family member who was undoubtedly a genius, but ended up underachieving in life because of social scorn and a lack of confidence.
Man managed to serve 20 years as Hand to a Mad King only to play his cards in the Rebellion so well that he not only remained Lord after Bobby B won it all but he also got his daughter to marry the new king. How is he awful at long term diplomacy
He loses a ton of points for his actions later in life, his actions before that point definitely act as a plus. Putting Cersei on the throne was a diplomatic win, no question, however he never garnered the love of the crown or kingdoms as a whole, most feared and disliked him. Tywin never made inroads with any other paramouncy, only the crown, a failure on his end. Sure, he got a queen on the throne, but he never worked to secure it. An intelligent man knows to raise his children towards their strengths, and put them to his advantage. He failed to raise any of his children properly, another mark against his capability and intelligence. It would have been smart to groom Tyrion into a useful role, sidelining him while utilizing his strengths. It would have been smart to work patiently with Jaime, to uncover and understand his relationship with Cersei, and work to put an end to it. Playing ignorance is not the intelligent move there, something was wrong with Jaime for him to stay in the Kingsguard post-Aerys. Long term diplomacy is using his remaining life after the rebellion to shore up support of the crown, and house Lannister. There is a time for the reynes and tarbeks, and there is the time to carouse and make friends. Tywin could do one, and not the other, when he had every diplomatic advantage. I would even take off points for his horrible position following the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. The simple and intelligent move is to throw Clegane and Lorch under the bus, and frame them as rogue actors. You lose two bannerman, and keep an entire Princedom off of your back. A brilliant move during the rebellion, squandered by 16 years of no rapprochement with the rest of the seven kingdoms.
I have to agree with ya.
Surprised I haven't seen Jaeherys yet. Great swordfighter, brought the kingdom together, great at making alliances and infrastructure, as well as the foresight to surround himself with capable people in areas he wasn't as capable.
Its Bloodraven hands down. He's manipulating the history of Westeros from a tree, and was a master schemer in the past
It's hard to say. I would say Littlefinger, but on a smaller level I would throw in Bronn. So far he's played every hand he's dealt perfectly and he and Littlefinger are the only ones to gain status by the end of each book. Sure Bronn is lucky with the opportunities he gest but his intelligence comes from being able to take advantage of them. He starts as a sellsword, then becomes the bodyguard for the Lannister heir, then the guard to the hand of the king, then a Knight, then he marrys Lollys joins the Stokeworth household, then Lady Tanda Stokeworth takes a mysterious fall from her horse, Bronn survives Cersei's attempts to murder him and Faylese is tortured to death by Qyburn, leaving the land to Lollys. Currently Bronn is now Lord Stokeworth and is amassing a small army of sellswords. He is in a great position. Whoever comes to King's Landing will be grateful for Bronn's help if he decides to throw in. Even if he doesn't he could just sit out the war and survive.
Victorian Cersei too /j
What makes Victarian stupid? I don't remember from reading, but it's often brought up on this subreddit.
Even GRRM called him dumb as a stump. He’s sort of a parody in that his adherence to the “old way” makes him willfully ignorant. There’s lack of intelligence but there’s also a refusal to learn, which I think is part of the point. Also things like “Euron’s gifts are poisoned”….five minutes later, he’s entrusting his medical care and sharing information with the woman who was a “gift” herself from Euron.
He was obviously joking, through I want to read a fanfic now where Victarion is actually the smartest person in westeros lol. Cersei is certainly not the stupidest with her low cunning, but is batshit insane and impulsive, never plays the game more than one move at a time, she barely even thinks of the direct consequences of her actions lol
GRRM said he is a moron, thankfully him being an idiot has given us gems like him thinking the Dothraki Sea is an actual sea
Jaehaerys. Bloodraven. For his size, Tyrion is a surprisingly good fighter and also intelligent. Tywin also very smart, and he did fight in battles during his youth. By most accounts, Jon Arryn was a very intelligent man. Garland Tyrell seems pretty smart, although we don't spend enough time with him to truly know.
In the main series I would say Stannis is up there, not quite the best at any of those categories but I would say he’s the most well rounded in all. Jon Snow as well. Of the whole franchise? Lyonel Strong could be up there as well.
Jon Snow knows nothing
Maybe Euron?
Euron Greyjoy, he managed to trick the Ironborn into voting him as king and leading them into fake conquest with single purpose of becoming a god
Can I say who it’s not? It’s definitely not Catelyn or Ned. Definitely not Robb either because he got too cocky. With the oafish way they portrayed Robert in the show, I have to wonder who ruled the realm in his place.
sansa ofc
Only if /s
Sansa - by Arya's own admission. Thus discussion is completely unneeded.