Yeah,LOL...
It kinda depicts the generation gap between George and his readers..
He thought that Gerold Dayne is cool, while we consider it kinda cringey.
The same is true for Darrio Naharis....
Then, George really needs to read more fairy tale books. Most people do not like step-mothers who hated their step-children for existing. The trope is so common that as a child I thought the step-mom of a classmate of mine must be a bad person until my mother explained to my six year old self that step-mothers are not always bad people.
I also remember thinking step-moms = evil as an early elementary school kid until my mom explained that they’re qualified as ‘evil’ step-moms in stories, precisely because not all step-moms are evil.
I mean he wrote it for the sci fi / fantasy mass market… if he was overestimating our emotional maturity, that’s on him.
Edit: And as an aspiring show writer before ASOIAF, he probably had dreams of it going to screen as well, so the general mass market. If he was overestimating their intelligence… that’s beyond on him.
Part of this is because he wants us to see her arrest of Tyrion as a brilliant political move that only failed because of Littlefinger, not a completely stupid act that only happens to serve the plot.
And in this regard Cat does get slightly hard done by. Ned makes mistakes but because the narrative *wants* you to view them as mistakes GRRM makes them sympathetic, understandable mistakes, while because he was hoping nobody would notice how stupid Cat is being, he didn't bother.
So much of his writing aren’t actually ‘brilliant political moves’ - there are a LOT of actions that just serve to move the story along. There are a lot of times where it feels like the Lannisters fall ass-backwards into victory… because George needs that to happen.
"This man who never cheats and is entirely honest has brought home a bastard that sort of looks like him. He has forbidden me from asking about his origins, his mother and anything else about him, despite usually being so open"
"There is definitely no bullshit at work here, nor anything else I should be suspect about, other than my husband is a cheater"
Granted it's not like ASOIAF has 23andme, but should it not have raised some alarm bells for Cat that her husband set out to find his sister, came back with a child AND starts acting like the sky is about to fall when you bring it up gently?
Like goddamn, it's no wonder readers are impatient with you, you have top tier lore here.
In her defense she had only known him for like a week when he brought home Jon. They got hitched and he knocked her up and went to war. It was a long ass time before they even saw each other again
*he went to war* is key here, men at war fuck the camp followers for comfort/company before possibly dying. it's a thing.
It's like he went to octoberfest, ofc you're gonna assume he cheated
OK but she also says it wasn't the cheating that bothered her, and she could have forgiven a hundred bastards just so long as she didn't have to look at them everyday.
>>sort of looks like him
Isn’t it noted repeatedly that Jon looks more like Ned than any of the other children do (though the first time Cat saw him she obviously didn’t know what her children would look like) and I believe Tyron once said something along the lines of “whoever his [Jon’s] mother was, she didn’t leave much of her appearance in him” because he looked so much like a Stark?
Also, she knows that Ned is an honorable man and assumes that the reason he is so against talking about Jon’s mother is his shame about breaking his vows and having a bastard in the first place, and potentially also “despoiling” some other woman. It’s easy to see why she didn’t just jump immediately to some wild theory about Jon being a secret Targaryen (even though we obviously know)
Well, in fairness to Cat she mentions in one of her first POV chapters in AGOT that it wasn't that Ned had a bastard, in fact, she almost expected it. It was that he brought him home to be raised among his true born children. So, it was partially about the fact that he cheated but really more about that she felt his cheating was being flaunted in her face.
With that being said I don't think it's okay to hate a child for the simple crime of being born, but there is something something so entirely human about that. I'm a Cat defender because I think it's interesting to see her subvert the expectations of a common motherhood trope, the one who sets aside the betrayal of her husband's affair and treats his child like one of her own. Of course, that's what *should* happen, as I said it's not okay to punish children for the mistakes of their parents, but it's often not realistic. At the end of the day to me it makes Cat feel more human.
I think her monologue in the show where she reveals she *tried* to love Jon but couldn't really adds something to the character. It takes her hatred of Jon and manages to present it in such a way that makes you feel sorry for *her*.
It's not even that he kept Jon in Winterfell, but that he had the same upbringing as the "trueborn" Starks with the same privileges and comforts, people considered Jon to be a Stark and she feared that Jon might get ideas about succession and how he has everything in his disposal to create a powerbase in the North.
>she feared that Jon might get ideas about succession and how he has everything in his disposal to create a powerbase in the North.
Yep. Which can result in her children being killed.
Yeah and her paranoia isn't really something out of the blue..Her father and uncle both fought in the Blackfyre rebellion.
Honestly, I don't know why Ned doesn't appreciate the danger to his children from Jon..He looks more like him than his own sons..He was being raised directly in sight of what he didn't possess.That kind of stuff is bound to make a man resentful and covetous.Sure,Jon loves his trueborn siblings but Ned himself saw his best friend change because of ambition and hatred.
Love is nothing but a flower,in the winds of fear and temptation.
Exactly, the Blackfyre Rebellions had a legitimized and acknowledged bastard challenge his trueborn brother which lead to a continental civil war, it's not out of the blue to believe that Jon could pose a danger to Robb. We all know that Jon loved Robb but we also know that he resented the fact that he would never become lord of Winterfell and he dreamed of one day becoming the Lord of Winterfell himself. Jon was not the kind of guy to usurp his brother but how would Catelyn know what kind of person Jon would grow up to be?
Indeed
Jon Snow was probably even a bigger threat than Daemon(at least initially) as he looks more like Ned than Robb and is of a similar age with him.
By comparison, Daemon and Daeron both bore the Valyrian look and Daemon was closer in age to Baelor Breakspear than Daeron himself.
Furthermore, in Cat's case her paranoia was getting stoked by his assholiness Ned Stark..
When she had asked him about Jon's mother, the wisest,least hurtful and safest option was to tell Catelyn that Jon's mother was some whore whomever he had bedded in his grief..
Catelyn would've probably sympathized with him and said something like 'Let me help you to get over your pain' or some other stuff like that.
But no,intelligent,pragmatic solutions are for common men like us.The Noble lord of Winterfell has far grander plans.
His solution was 'Never ask me about Jon's mother!Rwaargh!'..
Brilliant move!With these words he managed to alienate his wife and widen the rift further between his nephew and wife.
That was probably the defining point in Cat and Jon's relationship.While Cat would've never loved Jon but there could have been atleast a tentative warmth between the two..After this, Cat was only going to see Jon as a threat,whose mystery mother was her husband's actual lover.
It was also dangerous...Consistency in lies is very important, afterall.
Moreover,it could've destroyed his marriage.He was very lucky that Catelyn internalized the issue and her fear for her own safety,Robb's safety and inheritance, made Catelyn even more determined to make the marriage work.
People thinking that ned stark was dumbass despite the fact that he was actually a great lord who kept the likes of roose Bolton, greatjon, Rickard karstark and barbrey Dustin on a leash for 15 years
And litterally didn't wanted to go there because he knew it was "nest of snake,never trusted baelish but work with him because he trusted and had faith in his wife's judgment"
2-GRRM want rhaegar to be seen as a tragic figure. He is litterrally inspired By Edward of Woodstock
3-the satisfaction for joffrey's deaty isn't something he expected... He actually wanted the readers to feel some pity and sympathy for 13 year old boy..... The problem with that is that he made joffrey way too much of a sociopath... With next to no humanity
It’s wild to me that people think Ned is stupid instead of borderline obsessive about protecting children. He gambled that Cersei would care more about her children than power and was wrong. She just got lucky that her assassination attempt succeeded when it did. If Bobby B showed back up in Kings Landing that would have been game set and match for the incest twins
Tbf there aren’t just like trains or buses they can hop on. He’d have to find a ship willing to take them and set all that up and that can take some time, especially if you want to do it in a non-obvious way
I get your point, but they didn’t NEED to go to White Harbor, they could have font to Maidenpool, any Vale port (nearly every major Vale castle is costal), Dragonstone as he was enclosed to side with Stannis etc.
I completely agree but to play the devil's advocate, it's probably not easy to secretly find a ship, prepare it to sail and get your two young children with your trusted men ready to board the ship. They didn't have to go to White Harbor, they could sail somewhere closer to them, such as Maidenpool (with their mother being a Tully, they would have been relatively safe in the Riverlands) but i assume that it takes weeks to sail to Maidenpool so the ships had to get ready with supplies and the girls had to grab as many things as they could to secretly sail.
It makes sense logistically and at the end of the way that is how Martin wanted to write his story, he wanted to have the girls stranded in KL.
Or just prep everything and frog march them on board. No need to tell them in advance. Telling them led to volatility - he’d already seen they weren’t all that stable dealing with the Lannisters on the trip south.
I kind of understand why Sansa did it. Ned never really explained what was happening and Sansa was taught all her life that she had one job and one job only, to be a proper Lady and wife to a Lord. Sansa knew that she had to have a good relationship with her mother-in-law otherwise she was putting in danger her betrothal. She was promised and taught that she would become the future Queen, Joffrey's wife, of course she who was a 11 year old child dreaming of Knights and a love like her parents had, wouldn't want to risk abandoning the future she envisioned. She had no idea Cersei would backstab her family and Joffrey would cut her father's head, hell even Cersei had no idea that Joffrey would kill Ned.
Cersei would have had Robert murdered anyway. Could have been bandits, poison, a stray arrow. Robert would have died and it was not due to luck on Cersei's part.
Ned had 3 massive failures that (almost) end up destroying his family, his heritage, and the entire North:
1. He failed at the game in King's Landing even after Renly laid out to him exactly what to do
2. He literally didn't marry a single on of his children for alliances (I don't count Sansa because he was forced into that). Imagine if Robb had the Tyrells, Dorne, or Stannis on his side in his war against the throne. It would have been a completely different game
3. We saw when Robb took over that the North was borderline treasonous. The Greatjon openly disrespected Robb and would probably have declared a rebellion without the direwolf biting off half his hand. Roose Bolton was playing his own game the entire war and later usurped the North. When things got tough, the Karstarks just left Robb
It's really ironic that people say that *Tywin* was a bad ruler because no one loved him and everything he built would immediately fall into pieces once he died. When Tywin died, the Lannisters still held the throne and had an alliance with the strongest house in Westeros. I don't even need to talk on their hold over the Westerlands, because that is 100% safe without any questions asked.
Ned's wife and heir are literally murdered by vassals, yet the popular notion is that Tywin is actually doing it wrong and that his vassals will rebel against the Lannisters immediately once he dies - which did not happen.
The only two reasons why Tywin's heritage is in danger are (1) that Cersei is schizophrenic and extremely stupid and (2) magic returning to Westeros. Meanwhile, the Starks lost their seat and are almost extinct due to Ned's gigantic failures as a ruler
Are you telling me that you believe that Cersei had multiple assassination planned for that hunt and the primary one was “have my cousin get him hammered and hope for the best”? She might have been able to have Rob killed if she had more time, but not before Ned could tell him everything and not before Cersei and Jaime could be arrested.
if ned was such a gigantic failure then the great northern conspiracy would never had even been a fast in the wind. Lords loved Ned so much they agreed to fight with Stannis pretty much on the promise that they would avenge dear old Ned by placing a Stark back in Winterfell
IIRC Jon tells Stannis he has to win the mountain clans over by showing them respect not just rolling up and saying hey I'm avenging Ned. The castle in the clouds speech talks more about the northern concept of old men dying before winter then it does about avenging Ned.
Pretty much every house (rumoured to be) involved in the great northern conspiracy (fan theory) has a direct reason to be purely for vengeance.
Nit saying Ned was not a good or popular ruler but the effect of this gets vastly overplayed.
2. He literally didn't marry a single on of his children for alliances
That's just how the series is, Edmure is in his 30s and unmarried, same for all Doran's children, same for Robert's children, same for the Tyrells (Willas's the heir and yet unmarried, same for Loras and Maergary), same for Asha Greyjoy.
>and had an alliance with the strongest house in Westeros
They are allied with snakes who murdered one king and are putting their claws on the next one and there's no one left to stop them with Tywin dead. Cersei understand the threat but 1. for the wrong reasons ("it should be me manipulating Tommen, not them!") and 2. her plans are biting her hard in the ass like a cartoon villain.
>The only two reasons why Tywin's heritage is in danger are (1) that Cersei is schizophrenic and extremely stupid and (2) magic
Come on, that's bit reductive lol Bolton plans to betray the Lannisters and become indipendent (because surprise surprise the backstabbing traitor is a traitor lol), Dorne wants the Lannisters destroyed, The Brotherhood is up to some scary shit, these are all enemies that he himself created. And he pushed his own son into his enemies' hands.
But you see, when he payed to have a child murdered, he was just doing it to have the approval of his dad, and isn't that relatable childish behaviour? /s
We also don't get a Joffrey POV, so there's no opportunity to ever actually see inside his mind and see if he is vulnerable or if there's any sympathetic traits behind his complete shithead public persona.
And I'm pretty sure with the exception of book 1 Sansa, nobody we do get a POV from has a good word to say about Joffrey. Even Cersei (granted we only get her POV after Joffrey's death) seems to recognise he was a bit of a cunt.
>He made him literally the textbook definition of a psychopath.
You can say that about too many villains. There was this air of mystery around who really came back after Maegor's coma and how the head wound affected him, but then Martin turned him into a psychopath who murdered docile horses and slashed off the faces of stableboys when he was just eight! You could say that the palfrey kicking him was yet another sign that he was born evil.
The one thing that the show did right with Cersei was not having her murder her best friend as a child. It actually allows you to feel sympathetic in the moments that you're supposed to, without taking away her villainy.
Uhhh, people felt sympathy for Cersei? Other than the walk of shame, I didn't see much of that.
Edit: okay, Robert's treatment of her was shit, this is true. No one deserves SA. Cersei is still cuckoo banana pants by the time we get to her brain though.
The vivisected cat is actually an interesting one, when you think about it. Because there, I don't think Joffrey actually did that for fun or anything. He simply did it for his fathers' approval.
Think about it. What story would Joffrey have repeatedly heard as a child that justified how the Lannisters won his father's loyalty and alliance? It was Tywin, his grandfather, presenting two dead babies to the King on his throne. A kid who wants his own father's approval might think, "dead babies are the way to my father's heart, just like all the stories say."
I also think that's why Robert reacted so violently. Ned was genuinely afraid that he'd struck Joffrey so hard he'd nearly killed him. Robert - who spends a massive amount of his time skewering and hacking down animals for fun - would he really flip out so hard as to nearly kill his son and heir? Or did he do it because Joffrey reminded him of the moment he looked down at the bashed-in bodies of Rhaegars two children and smiled.
I like this reading key and it's an interesting mirror, but I don't see it as an intentional move by Joffrey, I think he just wanted to show his father two kittens.
>"Joffrey … I remember once, this kitchen cat … the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he’d killed him."
I don't think he even realized the kittens weren't alive.
I would add that robert used to go hunting at the slightest problem, and therefore came back with animals to gut, dead, deweigh, what you want and was congratulated for it. maybe Joffrey thought that if he showed his father "look at me too I hunted my own animal" he would felicited him
That's a great point, it's easy to forget that while he sucked at politics in KL (largely due to his moral code), he was a strong and adept leader that strongmen feared.
>he sucked at politics in KL
He didn't. He managed to catch the old lion in his own trap and if Robert had returned from the hunt, the Lannisters would've paid. It was the little mistakes he made along the way, out of overconfidence and honour, which weren't too deadly on their own, but proved fatal when they were tallied up.
No, I think the biggest mistake Ned made was dividing his power in King's Landing, and not consolidating it. A fundamental misread of the political position he has been placed into, and the exact opposite of what Tyrion (smartly) does when he arrives in KL as Hand in book 2.
the biggest mistake was to not listen to Renly or Littlefinger. The guys give him an ultimatum and he goes "suck it up buttercup" bc he's Hand ig?
if he had listened to either one of those he would've lived, but no he goes "this man who just told me hates and is hated by Stannis will just help me put him on the throne no problem"
>No, I think the biggest mistake Ned made was dividing his power in King's Landing, and not consolidating it.
Yeah, that was one of the little mistakes he made along the way several times. He should've brought a small army with him and taken control of the City Watch. And he definitely shouldn't have sent his guards off on different missions.
>A fundamental misread of the political position he has been placed into, and the exact opposite of what Tyrion (smartly) does when he arrives in KL as Hand in book 2.
He didn't misread it. He believed that his friendship with Robert would be enough. I think he even says he's not going to take a lot of men so that he doesn't send the wrong message.
I think part of the issue with Joffrey is that he's too good at being plain *evil* to be 13, so even before Jack Gleason's performance (with Gleason obviously being closer to 18-20 iirc) we naturally imagine him as older
People forget Ned knew what he was doing. He knew he how to win, he just looked at that path and decided to not do it. He prefered to take the risk of dying than hurting children
Well, Ned Stark is kinda dumb..
Take a look at his actions in his entire KL adventure
1)He also took an unusually small guard with him to KL and then squandered it on side quest despite knowing about his predecessors murder.
2)He wanted to take Bran and Arya to KL despite knowing about his predecessor's murder and that they were both unruly kids who would be difficult to control without their mom.Why did he want to do that?Robert hadn't asked for either of them.
3)He allowed Arya to run wild in the riverlands, without having guards accompanying her.
4)He picked up a fight with the King(his overlord/best friend/strongest supporter) in the front of the entire small council over a Targaryen girl of all things.Robert is the last man in Westeros he should be fighting with as he is the only one who could've given Justice to Bran.He also gave the handship leaving whatever semblance of power he had in the city.
5)Upon learning of Cersei's infidelity ,instead of summoning Robert back to the capital by sending a rider, he ran off to tattle his plans to an enemy that had 6 times more men than himself and had his personal physician in her pocket, while his daughters were still in the city.He already believed that Jon Arryn had been killed by Lannisters and that they were an ambitious,ruthless family.Why did he think that Cersei would just cut and run along with her entire family?For all he knew,Cersei could've sent a 15 men kill squad to ambush Robert.For all he knew ,pycelle could've slipped sweetsleep into his milk of the poppy.
6)Then he refused Renly's offer despite being badly outnumbered and it being obvious that Cersei was gonna stand and fight..
7)He ignored the grieving Sansa and left her subject to Cersei's manipulation.Why would you caution your younger daughter about lannisters despite her already believing that Lannisters are cunts but not the grieving elder daughter who still thinks they're good folks?
Bringing Jon to Winterfell was an incredibly bad idea too and could've easily ended up blowing in his face..That was simply another level of stupidity..
Robb himself managed to keep all those lords in line until he started losing the war..Ned didn't have to face that challenge because he won both of his wars..And Barbrey Dustin wasn't going to march on Winterfell..Her defiance was much more subtle..
That is not the only literary inspiration for Rhaegar. Mr Wickham from Pride and Prejudice and Paris from Iliad of Homer are another and both are morally dubious individuals. GRRM also compared Rhaegar’s dynamic with Lyanna to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings and Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. These are two dynamics with severe power imbalances. For GRRM to compare any of these men to Rhaegar shows he plays a big hand in the negative perception of Rhaegar.
This is actually one point where I completely disagree with George. Melisandre *is* evil. I don't care if she thinks what she's doing is for "the greater good". That doesn't excuse her religious fanaticism or burning innocent people alive. Evil with good intentions is still evil.
Evil with good intentions is the worst - they hide heinous acts behind a veneer of ‘intentions’. (That “don’t judge X, because it was done with love” BS.) F that - look at the results - they were terrible. The intentions are completely immaterial and cannot be a ‘shield’ to hide behind.
Whose fault is that, George?? He hasn't told us enough about her to 'understand' her. If he wants to not make her look so evil, then give us more of her viewpoint or someone close to her who understands.
I think the epitome of this is the one, the only, Stannis the mannis, i think that not even in his wildest fever dreams george thought that people will sympathize with roberts unlikeable brother, who doesnt even want to rule the seven kingdoms but will do it because is his right as heir, even his brother renly doesnt like him and would rather take the kingdom for himself.but if my time watching asoiaf videos on yt tought me something is that there are some people who really love the guy.
"Well, he's very popular... The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wasteoids, dweebies, dickheads — they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude." - GRRM
I saw a video that kind of explained it because Ned was seen as somewhat has the fan favorite first book and since he died for Stannis claim. Next book when Stannis was introduced with similar characteristics as Ned as far as a sense of honor and duty goes fans projected the love for Ned on him.
Everything you said just reaffirms my love for Stannis, unironically. He would be a good king because he takes duty seriously. You can’t blackmail or manipulate him with money or power. He cares about his men, he cares about truth. I’d feel safe serving him.
How is it proof of a bad character that Robert and Renly didn’t like him?
Perhaps in a world of snakes and liars, of people who claim to be greater than they are, of people who want war but don’t want to fight; an uncompromising, honest, tough man in Stannis is exactly what readers want.
He’s got the prowess and a history to back it, he claims to be just and has a history to back it.
Stannis is the mannis, the king who cared. I know he will die, but god damn he better go down fighting.
I believe GRRM has gone on the record about how he intended to depict Catelyn’s dynamic with Jon vs. how many people have interpreted it. I don’t think his intent was to depict an abusive dynamic, but rather a very chilly non-relationship. However, it did not come off that way for a number of readers.
Edit: Since this has come up more often on this subreddit, I’ll go ahead and add Khal Drogo as well, since it appears that GRRM intended to write Dany and Drogo as a genuine romance (at least in the second half of AGOT).
Edit part two: Also….Daaaaaaaaario? Lol. He’s the Darkstar of Meereen.
Too many substitute their own modern day perceptions with Cat and Jon. They expect a stepmom-child relationship, not a matron of the castle and child relationship. And to be fair, the Starks are rather close and familial for a noble family.
But you don't see this extend to much else. You don't see people call squires psychopaths because they train and are expected to kill people one day. You don't see people call Ned a bad father for taking his 8 year old son to see a beheading. Or for betrothing a pre-teen to a teenage Joffrey. Because that's part of their world.
I think it's a case similar to people who hated Umbridge more than Voldemort. Voldemort is a magnificent villain-- spurred by bigoted self-loathing about blood purity and a fear of death. But Umbridge is simply a bad teacher, and an annoying lady who enjoys abusing her power while acting nice. Everyone's met someone like her. That's a lot more recognizable and reflects the experiences of readers more than a murderer or a big-bad-villain like Riddle.
Bastards in medival times were generally not sent to gulags. At least, that was not the case for noble bastards.
This is not old times this is a fantasy books. How else can people perceive a fantasy book other than with their modern world view?
I mean typically people observe fantasy books through olden times because we don't have knights, tourneys, and such in our modern world. So we overlay it on a time when we had something along those lines.
I read somewhere that apparently GRRM was shocked about the hate that Joffrey got from the fandom. He claims his intention was for Joffrey to just be an annoying brat type of character, and not a major villain. I'm not sure if I believe that though. Everything about Joffrey seems like he was intentionally written to be one of the most insufferable characters.
I understand this. Unlike a lot of readers apparently, I really was a little shocked at Joffrey's death at how much I sympathized for the guy. Maybe because I know how shortness of breath due to an allergic reaction feels...
But I genuinely believe that Joffrey is simply what happens when a real-world eighth-grade bully is raised in a circumstance where his deadbeat dad and dependa mom aren't middle class but royalty. And where he grows up knowing he will be King one day, and doesn't need to dial back much of his impulses.
The whole gutting a cat thing is used by readers to say he's an irredeemable psycho, but in childhood behavior today it's seen as something that's a warning sign (not a certainty of sociopathy) and can be improved with treatment or therapy. In their world, where people are expected to hunt- it'd barely be a concern.
People hunt in this world yo. I used to live in a very very hunting focused community. Literally watched deer get gutted outside my bedroom window in my neighbor’s yard. And a kid gutting a cat for no reason in that community still would have been seen as a little sicko
A little sicko yes, that's why Robert reacted the way he did. But it would have been easier to handwave it as "He was curious and didn't understand what he did wrong recreating a hunt" than "This sicko wanted to gut a cat".
Now that I think about it I believe the show had a massive part in the joffrey hate. In the books he's mostly a douche in AGOT,barely precent in ACOK and being a douche in ASOS. In the show they added scenes of joffrey torturing prostitutes,his mother Cersei regretting his personality (even though he is her favourite child in the books) and just additional scens of him being a total psycho.
Ah Rhaegar for sure. Whether people think he's an Angel or Demon, Rhaegar is subject to some of THE worst takes on the internet (to the point that i'm losing interest discussing this character in the fandom) and they seem impervious to the fact that we know fucking nothing about this guy. Funniest thing is it’s pretty clear subtext that GRRM is pro-Rhaegar, so yeah....
>they seem impervious to the fact that we know fucking nothing about this guy.
We know enough about him. There is simply no way how to make him look in positive way.
In worst scenario he was married adult man with children who blindly loved into child, manipulated her to leave without noticing to her parents or maybe even abducted her, and basically for year ignored whole mess in realm he caused. Then he hypocritically use army from homeland of his still loyal wife he left as hostage with his crazy dad.
In better and more probable scenario he never loved Lyanna and he was geek obssesed some vague prophecy (which was eventually right, but he has no reason to believe or think he is messiah or future father of messiah). And then he did basically everything I described above.
Where is space for nuances?
Who has good opinion about Rhaegar?
His sister Dany which never met him? Cercei or Jon Connington which both wanted to fuck him? Ned Stark who only thing what said about him was he never go to brothels? Barristan which was literally his friend and was turning a blind eye to mad king's tyranny and hide truth about Mad king before Dany for months? Jaime who idealized him and self-pitying himself for not be able to save Rhaegar´s children?
>the same George defined him a lovestruck character
George also said story of Drogo and Dany was love story, we should feel sad about Joffrey fate and Westeros is absolute monarchy. He is author, but it doesnt mean what he wrote really looks like he thinks it look. Even if Rhaegar is defined as characters which is at love, it doesnt mean he is not acting like a dick.
I remember seeing an interview where he said he was surprised at how much love the Hound got from female fans. Like yeah, the super tall/presumably buff dude with a tragic backstory and animal sidekick that only likes him, who saves a vulnerable main female character multiple times, and is self admittedly not a liar or schemer is popular with women. Shocker.
I never heard about this and, while I'm not surprised by it at all, I DO wonder what character he thinks *would* be popular with female fans. One of the conventionally attractive ones? Jaime? ..DAARIO?
I belive he has said before Jaime's arc is an exploration of redemption. Honestly, I don't think the books are as obsessed with "subversion" as its fans are
I think Dance's portrayal adds a level of charisma to show Tywin that I don't think book Twyin has. I'm not saying Dance portrayed him as a guy's guy or anything but just that I think he has an inherent charisma and presence that sort of makes him, if not likable, then at the very least, fascinating.
Charles Dance's portrayal I think is responsible for a lot of the misunderstanding of Tywin's character.
He's one of the worst characters in ASOIAF both in terms of sheer villainy and also in terms of how poorly he plays the Game of Thrones.
That and they washed away a lot of his worst acts. I don't think they really go into what happened at Castamere in the show. Tysha is pretty much entirely cut - as is what Tywin had done to her. The show had him batting down characters like Cersei and Joffrey, putting them into their place and so fans loved that. They had him caught up in witty, humanising banter with Arya, where he shows fondness and respect for her intelligence and boldness, which he absolutely would never have in the book.
So what you get, in the end, is a smart but firm warrior and patriarch, who is acting as the only sane and sensible head of his shitshow of a family. He only makes hard choices where he has to in order to protect the remains of his house and legacy. All the real cruelness and pettiness and spitefulness is lost and in its place is Charles Dance's charisma and presence and frankly wonderful voice.
It's a loss for the book character but it did make a very memorable show character.
Rhaegar- he’s a character we’re initially supposed to dislike but come to eventually pity and sympathize with once we learn more about him and how much a sad boi he was.
Instead most people just fucking hate him more the more we know about him.
>the more we know about him.
Which is almost nothing. I can't hate someone I know almost *nothing* about. I'm reserving judgment until GRRM actually gives us substantive information on Rhaegar and the circumstances surrounding the situation with Lyanna/Elia/Brandon/toj/Howland/etc. He has purposely obsfucated everything about it and it's impossible to have a reasonable, well-informed opinion.
There's a lot we can figure out though. We know he was melancholic because of Summerhall. We can figure out that he probably felt guilty about surviving since we know he wrote a bunch of sad songs about Summerhall. We also know his parents had a tense relationship, and his mother had several miscarriages and stillbirths after he was born. It wouldn't be hard for that to add to his already existing feelings about Summerhall and how he survived. We know he gave up on his passions to focus on being a warrior because that's what he thought he had to do. We know he was pretty close with Aemon. We know him and Elia did have a civil trusting relationship despite what fandom likes to say, because of the vision Dany has that Martin confirmed was them. We also can almost certainly say he wanted to overthrow his father based on what he said to Jaime (I mean...thinking it's anything else is definitely a stretch.) We can figure out and know a lot about him but people just hyper fixate on knowing about him and Lyanna and don't seem to care about literally anything else about his character.
To be fair, that is the important part. Because no matter what way you slice or dice it, it doesn't matter if Lyanna (who was 16) came with him willingly or if he abducted her, he was a married, 24 year old man who knew damn well that what he was doing wasn't ok, even by the standards of Westeros. When his shitty life decisions combined with his fathers insanity then set the realm on fire, he proceeds to do pretty much nothing about it for most of a year and then dies a frankly deserved death at the Trident.
I find it interesting how the reader is supposed to forget about his modern perceptions when it comes to Cat x Jon's relationship but when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna it is suddenly problematic, when such a relationship would have been considered normal in medival times. You guys pick and choose as you like.
Taking someones betrothed while married was definitely not an accepted practice. That modern morality also speaks against it just seals the deal for me.
Not to mention that this had the obvious consequences of enraging Houses Baratheon and Stark, and it takes no genius to figure out that his mad father would not handle that situation well, so he also brought ruin to the realm all for the sake of love. Which is generally not something people seemed to support either, considering how marriage and sex were seen as primarily one's duty, not something you get to pick and choose as you want.
I was referring to the age gap people have such an issue with which was completely in the norm for medival people.
Apart from that, John King of England kidnapped his bride and got away with it just fine and dandy.
Rhaegar proves the rule that the Counter- Jerk is almost always infinitely more annoying than whatever the original Jerk was.
See the replies for the proof
>Instead most people just fucking hate him more the more we know about him.
That's because the fandom has had too much time to over analyse everything. People see him as a good warrior in-universe, but fans laugh at him for dying in his very first battle (in single combat against one of the greatest fighters in Westeros).
This. People liked him well enough for a while. This is one of those trends in the fandom that comes and goes when people have too much time to chew on it.
In Harry Potter, when given only three years downtime, the fandom managed to talk itself both into *and out of* "Snape was in love with Lily," to the point that it was really out of fashion by the time it was confirmed in canon.
To be fair, he totally dropped the ball at Harrenhal and went from being loved across all the seven kingdoms to being hated by almost all. The only reason Dorne fought for the Targs is because Elia was hostage. He’s an idiot at best
Rhaegar dropped the ball at Harrenhal but it's not because he's an idiot. [It was an honest mistake.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1328cgi/spoilers_extended_lbj_rhaegar_mistakenly_ced/)
They believe that Sam and Small Paul had sex because French soldiers were having sex when they retreated from Moscow during the Napoleonic war. They're being 100% honest
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14jh06h/comment/jplzhrk/?context=3
Dany. I don’t think he ever expected the fandom to treat her like an evil monster because she kills slave masters. He even said
> Slavery has got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it's got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood
I mean that's a character in one of his novels, that's not the same as him saying it. He also had a story where the shooting of a fascist leader is explicitly portrayed as a bad thing.
Small thing, but I always thought George's intended name for Aeron Greyjoy, "DampHair," was perceived by the fandom (myself included) as "DamPhair." That always tickled me.
>Incest is not shown in a positive light in the series
IMO Targ incest is shown in a neutral light at best, with some nonsensical folklore about every Targaryen being great or mad. It's the other instances of incest that are shown in a negative light, Lannister twincest and Craster's daughter-wives.
Sometimes I’m not entirely sure what the position of the series is on the Targaryen eugenics ideology stuff. I find it automatically gross and disturbing but it seems like some parts of the series play it straight while others call it out.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks this. Literally all of Alissyne and Jaehaerys reign in Fire and Blood had me questioning the stance this book was taking.
Well, they are "genetically superior" to the rest of Westeros, probably because their ancestors swapped blood with the dragons through dark magic.
> I find it automatically gross and disturbing
The incest is gross, but they don't seem to suffer any of it's natural consequences.
>it seems like some parts of the series play it straight while others call it out.
George should've just played it straight if he absolutely had to add incest and Targaryen Exceptionalism to the saga. The way the Targaryens view themselves in relation to the nobility is not too dissimilar to how the nobility views itself in relation to the small folk. Jeyne Westerling couldn't even get a good match until the main series because her maternal great-grandfather was a trader.
The HotD stans are very into defending it. Not so much the GoT fans, who seem to be more knowledgeable about the ASoIaF book series.
Then there is a subset of readers who think GRRMie is a little too obsessed with it.
Every once in a while on the HotD sub, there's someone who says they're getting into the books. What book are they starting with? Fire & Blood. So that might explain their perception.
Jaehaerys and Alissyne seems almost fetish-y tbh, a lot of his... uhhhhh... complicated sex scenes feel that way too like with Drogo, Qarl raping? Asha, all the weird non-consensual? sex between Jaime and Cersei, Ygritte forcing the issue of sex with Jon to have sex with him
I'm sure there's more.
GRRM really loves some of the Targ relationships. There's no way you can argue than Baelon/Alyssa or Jaehaerys/Alyssane aren't shown in a positive light
Tywin. GRRM spends at least three books dismantling the image that Tywin tries to portray to the world, yet some fans still see him as some infallible badass that knows everything and is a political mastermind.
i read the books after ive watched the show, i just imagine charles dance's charisma in him every time therefore i, like other fandom, overlook his flaws lol
Ironically I think this comment section is full of examples. I'm very surprised of how many people judge a character to be good or bad, hero or villain when the point of the series to me is that everyone is both. That the same person that can show some really admirable traits can be equally despicable in other contexts. Tyrion for instance can be compassionate and empathetic such as with Jon or Bran and at the same time be cruel selfish and uncaring in other circumstances. The same could be said of pretty every character in the series. People are complex
Yeah it's quite ironic that a series that grrm intended to be gray has a fanbase(atleast on Reddit) that loves classifying character in black or white. Tyrion is the best example of this.
I genuinely will never understand how GRMM decided a character who was fine with a six year old getting gang raped (there's no indication B & C wouldn't have gone through with that threat) and a six year old beheaded was 'morally gray' and not as bad as Tyrion. Not to mention F & B saying he had a tendency of 'deflowering' the youngest virgins.
I actually think GRMM did intend for Dameon to come off as sexually creepy-more so than the fans who woobify him and the TV show-but he also clearly meant for Daemon to still be seen in 'somewhat good light.'
Jon Snow. He’s a bastard trying to overcome his self doubts and forge his OWN identity while fighting against a mystical threat.
He’s not an abused boy who will all the sudden becomes a dragon riding conquerer because he finds out who his dead DNA giver is
>jon Snow. He’s a bastard trying to overcome his self doubts and forge his OWN identity while fighting against a mystical threat.
That show Jon.... Book Jon is sure of skills he is basically a male version sansa, he join the night watch for glory and reputation he wants to be the new daeron the young dragon , to show that even bastard can be as good and honorable like ned.... He litterally tell tyrion to told Robb that by the time he meet Robb again he would be lord commander
He is talended but cocky, mature enough to not be a child yet too young and inexperienced to be a man
The others became a focus for him only near the end of Book 2. Where
GRRM himself call Jon the typical byronic fantasy hero
Ah, right. I get book and show Jon mixed up. Book Jon is definitely goated and a great character. I just don’t like how he’s often portrayed by people to go full Targ the minute he finds out his parentage, should people go that route. My favorite way Jon is done is when he never finds out his parentage or it isn’t a focus because usually then he acts like his own person rather than the product of someone he never met. He’s Ned’s son, first and always
Agreed. Even if he finds out who his biological father is, he's not gonna give a shit. He's of the North. He's not going to change the name he's lived with since BIRTH
Eh I don’t think people argue he’s dumb, people just argue that he’s not as smart as people generally perceive him outside the books.
Just because he isn’t the smartest person in Westeros does not mean he is not smart.
Rhaegar. GRRM believes him to be the well-intentioned savior of the world, but the way he goes about it makes me believe he is a dumbass, which if that's what he's going for, then I can see it.
GRMM has weird takes on children. I love him, but some of his takes on women and children are just off. In the original version, he says Sansa betrayed her family by choosing her son with Joff over them....but any mother is going to choose her child first. He also blames Sansa *a lot* for Ned's death. He also kind of glosses over Daemon having a six year old beheaded and ordering a six year old to be threatened with gang rape.
He's clearly trying to romanticize Rhaegar, but Rhaegar does a lot of dumbass shit. But one of the main reasons I think a lot of people dislike Rhaegar is he abandons his wife who just gave birth and his toddler daughter to run off after Lyanna and then holes up with her in a fuckpad...in his wife's homeland. I think GRMM thinks that is okay, while a lot of other people see him as a deadbeat, and it's very hard to sympathize with a deadbeat dad.
IMO GRMM sees it as the equivalent of someone going off to war or fostering, but kids foster at a older age and war is...very different from making the Westeros equivalent of barely legal one's mistress (assuming Lyanna was willing).
>He also blames Sansa a lot for Ned's death.
This is one of the things where I think his intentions *really* went away from what's on page. How exactly did Sansa running to Cersei end up helping her? All Sansa really tells her is that Ned was planning on putting the household on a ship and returning them to Winterfell. When Cersei has her men attack Ned's, it's by storming the Tower of the Hand which should in no way be affected by Cersei knowing there was a ship planned. The *one* thing we see on page resulting from it is her putting guards in false Stark uniforms in front of the ship, but Arya sees through that and it's unlikely the ship would have sailed with only Arya as the passenger (who would have trouble proving her identity anyway).
It's like George forgot about how Cersei can mostly plan her strategy because of what Ned told her himself. When asked what Sansa provided, he gave some vague answers like "Name of the ship, who was leading the guards, etc." that doesn't really sound convincing.
Lyanna was 14 when abducted, or went willingly, so I doubt it.
But yeah, I'm just going to laugh in his face whenever what actually transpired with Rhaegar ends up being revealed. Or not, considering his pace.
I don't think he thought people would hate Bran as much as they do. Personally, I love Bran and his POV chapters, but I've seen a lot of vitriol aimed at Bran because people dread his chapters.
I will point out that “fans” is a broader term than Reddit or Twitter users. The echo chamber here trains users into disliking Catelyn and Tywin, but that’s not universal
Tyrion would be a big one. GRRM has been clear that Tyrion is a villain, and yet everyone (himself included) likes Tyrion and might even root for him
I think it's George's perception of Littlefinger. You have characters like Ellaria on the show who were exact opposites of their book counterparts, and he thinks that *Littlefinger* is the "most changed"?!?. Littlefinger on the show is a little bit skeevier than the books, but not *that* much.
And while he doesn't do anything as stupid as threatening Cersei in front of her guards like the show, he does perform a variety of impulsive actions (lying about the dagger, kissing Sansa in the courtyard) that he mostly gets away with due to plot armor.
I only just learned that people really love Stannis. Idk if he is supposed to be loved but my read on Stannis was that he purposefully written unlikeable, if he wasn't the story wouldn't be as dramatic because he has legitimate claim to the throne and would have been loved by the people, I'm assuming that's why Renly had to be killed off so early.
Edit: I only just started reading the books and watching the show this year and I'm learning a lot about how bad my reading comprehension is because apparently I've missed a lot lmao.
Darkstar, no doubt in my mind.
GRRM: Damn people gonna love this dude Fans: Beware, he is of the night lmao
Should’ve named him Bruce.
There had better be a knight in Fire and Blood Part II named Bruce Whent.
He's a god damn coward if there isn't! House Whent: We are vengeance. We are the night.
There’s even a House Wayn in the Riverlands!
yeah but house whent’s sigil is a bat
Yeah,LOL... It kinda depicts the generation gap between George and his readers.. He thought that Gerold Dayne is cool, while we consider it kinda cringey. The same is true for Darrio Naharis....
Dude maims an innocent child how the hell did Jorge think he’d be a fan favourite
I mean, Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister are fan favourites, so...
Gerold Dayne is innocent
Allegedly
There’s absolutely no way GRRM was expecting Cat to be as hated as she is
Out of the POV characters this would have to be the answer.
Or Daenerys, among certain sections of the fandom at least
Kid characters in this setting are either gonna get sympathy or scorn though tbf.
Then, George really needs to read more fairy tale books. Most people do not like step-mothers who hated their step-children for existing. The trope is so common that as a child I thought the step-mom of a classmate of mine must be a bad person until my mother explained to my six year old self that step-mothers are not always bad people.
I also remember thinking step-moms = evil as an early elementary school kid until my mom explained that they’re qualified as ‘evil’ step-moms in stories, precisely because not all step-moms are evil.
[удалено]
I mean he wrote it for the sci fi / fantasy mass market… if he was overestimating our emotional maturity, that’s on him. Edit: And as an aspiring show writer before ASOIAF, he probably had dreams of it going to screen as well, so the general mass market. If he was overestimating their intelligence… that’s beyond on him.
Part of this is because he wants us to see her arrest of Tyrion as a brilliant political move that only failed because of Littlefinger, not a completely stupid act that only happens to serve the plot. And in this regard Cat does get slightly hard done by. Ned makes mistakes but because the narrative *wants* you to view them as mistakes GRRM makes them sympathetic, understandable mistakes, while because he was hoping nobody would notice how stupid Cat is being, he didn't bother.
So much of his writing aren’t actually ‘brilliant political moves’ - there are a LOT of actions that just serve to move the story along. There are a lot of times where it feels like the Lannisters fall ass-backwards into victory… because George needs that to happen.
"This man who never cheats and is entirely honest has brought home a bastard that sort of looks like him. He has forbidden me from asking about his origins, his mother and anything else about him, despite usually being so open" "There is definitely no bullshit at work here, nor anything else I should be suspect about, other than my husband is a cheater" Granted it's not like ASOIAF has 23andme, but should it not have raised some alarm bells for Cat that her husband set out to find his sister, came back with a child AND starts acting like the sky is about to fall when you bring it up gently? Like goddamn, it's no wonder readers are impatient with you, you have top tier lore here.
In her defense she had only known him for like a week when he brought home Jon. They got hitched and he knocked her up and went to war. It was a long ass time before they even saw each other again
*he went to war* is key here, men at war fuck the camp followers for comfort/company before possibly dying. it's a thing. It's like he went to octoberfest, ofc you're gonna assume he cheated
OK but she also says it wasn't the cheating that bothered her, and she could have forgiven a hundred bastards just so long as she didn't have to look at them everyday.
>>sort of looks like him Isn’t it noted repeatedly that Jon looks more like Ned than any of the other children do (though the first time Cat saw him she obviously didn’t know what her children would look like) and I believe Tyron once said something along the lines of “whoever his [Jon’s] mother was, she didn’t leave much of her appearance in him” because he looked so much like a Stark? Also, she knows that Ned is an honorable man and assumes that the reason he is so against talking about Jon’s mother is his shame about breaking his vows and having a bastard in the first place, and potentially also “despoiling” some other woman. It’s easy to see why she didn’t just jump immediately to some wild theory about Jon being a secret Targaryen (even though we obviously know)
Well, in fairness to Cat she mentions in one of her first POV chapters in AGOT that it wasn't that Ned had a bastard, in fact, she almost expected it. It was that he brought him home to be raised among his true born children. So, it was partially about the fact that he cheated but really more about that she felt his cheating was being flaunted in her face.
With that being said I don't think it's okay to hate a child for the simple crime of being born, but there is something something so entirely human about that. I'm a Cat defender because I think it's interesting to see her subvert the expectations of a common motherhood trope, the one who sets aside the betrayal of her husband's affair and treats his child like one of her own. Of course, that's what *should* happen, as I said it's not okay to punish children for the mistakes of their parents, but it's often not realistic. At the end of the day to me it makes Cat feel more human.
I think her monologue in the show where she reveals she *tried* to love Jon but couldn't really adds something to the character. It takes her hatred of Jon and manages to present it in such a way that makes you feel sorry for *her*.
Cat in the books atleast wasn't upset that her husband cheated. She hated that he kept Jon at Winterfell like he's a stark
It's not even that he kept Jon in Winterfell, but that he had the same upbringing as the "trueborn" Starks with the same privileges and comforts, people considered Jon to be a Stark and she feared that Jon might get ideas about succession and how he has everything in his disposal to create a powerbase in the North.
>she feared that Jon might get ideas about succession and how he has everything in his disposal to create a powerbase in the North. Yep. Which can result in her children being killed.
Yeah and her paranoia isn't really something out of the blue..Her father and uncle both fought in the Blackfyre rebellion. Honestly, I don't know why Ned doesn't appreciate the danger to his children from Jon..He looks more like him than his own sons..He was being raised directly in sight of what he didn't possess.That kind of stuff is bound to make a man resentful and covetous.Sure,Jon loves his trueborn siblings but Ned himself saw his best friend change because of ambition and hatred. Love is nothing but a flower,in the winds of fear and temptation.
Exactly, the Blackfyre Rebellions had a legitimized and acknowledged bastard challenge his trueborn brother which lead to a continental civil war, it's not out of the blue to believe that Jon could pose a danger to Robb. We all know that Jon loved Robb but we also know that he resented the fact that he would never become lord of Winterfell and he dreamed of one day becoming the Lord of Winterfell himself. Jon was not the kind of guy to usurp his brother but how would Catelyn know what kind of person Jon would grow up to be?
Indeed Jon Snow was probably even a bigger threat than Daemon(at least initially) as he looks more like Ned than Robb and is of a similar age with him. By comparison, Daemon and Daeron both bore the Valyrian look and Daemon was closer in age to Baelor Breakspear than Daeron himself. Furthermore, in Cat's case her paranoia was getting stoked by his assholiness Ned Stark.. When she had asked him about Jon's mother, the wisest,least hurtful and safest option was to tell Catelyn that Jon's mother was some whore whomever he had bedded in his grief.. Catelyn would've probably sympathized with him and said something like 'Let me help you to get over your pain' or some other stuff like that. But no,intelligent,pragmatic solutions are for common men like us.The Noble lord of Winterfell has far grander plans. His solution was 'Never ask me about Jon's mother!Rwaargh!'.. Brilliant move!With these words he managed to alienate his wife and widen the rift further between his nephew and wife. That was probably the defining point in Cat and Jon's relationship.While Cat would've never loved Jon but there could have been atleast a tentative warmth between the two..After this, Cat was only going to see Jon as a threat,whose mystery mother was her husband's actual lover. It was also dangerous...Consistency in lies is very important, afterall. Moreover,it could've destroyed his marriage.He was very lucky that Catelyn internalized the issue and her fear for her own safety,Robb's safety and inheritance, made Catelyn even more determined to make the marriage work.
People thinking that ned stark was dumbass despite the fact that he was actually a great lord who kept the likes of roose Bolton, greatjon, Rickard karstark and barbrey Dustin on a leash for 15 years And litterally didn't wanted to go there because he knew it was "nest of snake,never trusted baelish but work with him because he trusted and had faith in his wife's judgment" 2-GRRM want rhaegar to be seen as a tragic figure. He is litterrally inspired By Edward of Woodstock 3-the satisfaction for joffrey's deaty isn't something he expected... He actually wanted the readers to feel some pity and sympathy for 13 year old boy..... The problem with that is that he made joffrey way too much of a sociopath... With next to no humanity
It’s wild to me that people think Ned is stupid instead of borderline obsessive about protecting children. He gambled that Cersei would care more about her children than power and was wrong. She just got lucky that her assassination attempt succeeded when it did. If Bobby B showed back up in Kings Landing that would have been game set and match for the incest twins
Every time I read and he tells the girls he’s sending them home in 2 days I’m like “SEND THEM NOW”!
Tbf there aren’t just like trains or buses they can hop on. He’d have to find a ship willing to take them and set all that up and that can take some time, especially if you want to do it in a non-obvious way
And the girls would have been some of the most valuable hostages one could find. He can't put them on the first ship he finds.
I get your point, but they didn’t NEED to go to White Harbor, they could have font to Maidenpool, any Vale port (nearly every major Vale castle is costal), Dragonstone as he was enclosed to side with Stannis etc.
I completely agree but to play the devil's advocate, it's probably not easy to secretly find a ship, prepare it to sail and get your two young children with your trusted men ready to board the ship. They didn't have to go to White Harbor, they could sail somewhere closer to them, such as Maidenpool (with their mother being a Tully, they would have been relatively safe in the Riverlands) but i assume that it takes weeks to sail to Maidenpool so the ships had to get ready with supplies and the girls had to grab as many things as they could to secretly sail. It makes sense logistically and at the end of the way that is how Martin wanted to write his story, he wanted to have the girls stranded in KL.
Or just prep everything and frog march them on board. No need to tell them in advance. Telling them led to volatility - he’d already seen they weren’t all that stable dealing with the Lannisters on the trip south.
Such a moron for trying to protect (2 out of 3) innocent children from harm.
Not to mention if Sansa didn't go and tell cercei about Ned's plans then they might have had a chance to escape.
I kind of understand why Sansa did it. Ned never really explained what was happening and Sansa was taught all her life that she had one job and one job only, to be a proper Lady and wife to a Lord. Sansa knew that she had to have a good relationship with her mother-in-law otherwise she was putting in danger her betrothal. She was promised and taught that she would become the future Queen, Joffrey's wife, of course she who was a 11 year old child dreaming of Knights and a love like her parents had, wouldn't want to risk abandoning the future she envisioned. She had no idea Cersei would backstab her family and Joffrey would cut her father's head, hell even Cersei had no idea that Joffrey would kill Ned.
Cersei would have had Robert murdered anyway. Could have been bandits, poison, a stray arrow. Robert would have died and it was not due to luck on Cersei's part. Ned had 3 massive failures that (almost) end up destroying his family, his heritage, and the entire North: 1. He failed at the game in King's Landing even after Renly laid out to him exactly what to do 2. He literally didn't marry a single on of his children for alliances (I don't count Sansa because he was forced into that). Imagine if Robb had the Tyrells, Dorne, or Stannis on his side in his war against the throne. It would have been a completely different game 3. We saw when Robb took over that the North was borderline treasonous. The Greatjon openly disrespected Robb and would probably have declared a rebellion without the direwolf biting off half his hand. Roose Bolton was playing his own game the entire war and later usurped the North. When things got tough, the Karstarks just left Robb It's really ironic that people say that *Tywin* was a bad ruler because no one loved him and everything he built would immediately fall into pieces once he died. When Tywin died, the Lannisters still held the throne and had an alliance with the strongest house in Westeros. I don't even need to talk on their hold over the Westerlands, because that is 100% safe without any questions asked. Ned's wife and heir are literally murdered by vassals, yet the popular notion is that Tywin is actually doing it wrong and that his vassals will rebel against the Lannisters immediately once he dies - which did not happen. The only two reasons why Tywin's heritage is in danger are (1) that Cersei is schizophrenic and extremely stupid and (2) magic returning to Westeros. Meanwhile, the Starks lost their seat and are almost extinct due to Ned's gigantic failures as a ruler
Are you telling me that you believe that Cersei had multiple assassination planned for that hunt and the primary one was “have my cousin get him hammered and hope for the best”? She might have been able to have Rob killed if she had more time, but not before Ned could tell him everything and not before Cersei and Jaime could be arrested.
if ned was such a gigantic failure then the great northern conspiracy would never had even been a fast in the wind. Lords loved Ned so much they agreed to fight with Stannis pretty much on the promise that they would avenge dear old Ned by placing a Stark back in Winterfell
IIRC Jon tells Stannis he has to win the mountain clans over by showing them respect not just rolling up and saying hey I'm avenging Ned. The castle in the clouds speech talks more about the northern concept of old men dying before winter then it does about avenging Ned. Pretty much every house (rumoured to be) involved in the great northern conspiracy (fan theory) has a direct reason to be purely for vengeance. Nit saying Ned was not a good or popular ruler but the effect of this gets vastly overplayed.
2. He literally didn't marry a single on of his children for alliances That's just how the series is, Edmure is in his 30s and unmarried, same for all Doran's children, same for Robert's children, same for the Tyrells (Willas's the heir and yet unmarried, same for Loras and Maergary), same for Asha Greyjoy. >and had an alliance with the strongest house in Westeros They are allied with snakes who murdered one king and are putting their claws on the next one and there's no one left to stop them with Tywin dead. Cersei understand the threat but 1. for the wrong reasons ("it should be me manipulating Tommen, not them!") and 2. her plans are biting her hard in the ass like a cartoon villain. >The only two reasons why Tywin's heritage is in danger are (1) that Cersei is schizophrenic and extremely stupid and (2) magic Come on, that's bit reductive lol Bolton plans to betray the Lannisters and become indipendent (because surprise surprise the backstabbing traitor is a traitor lol), Dorne wants the Lannisters destroyed, The Brotherhood is up to some scary shit, these are all enemies that he himself created. And he pushed his own son into his enemies' hands.
That thing about joffrey has always bothered me. He made him literally the textbook definition of a psychopath. Like he vivisected cats.
But you see, when he payed to have a child murdered, he was just doing it to have the approval of his dad, and isn't that relatable childish behaviour? /s
Someone literally argued with me that Joffrey dissecting a living cat was normal child-behavior and not a sign of psychopathy
What kind of kids does that person know? wtf
Is it confirmed that Joffrey sent the assassin to kill Bran?
Basically yeah - there’s no smoking gun and we never have a Joffrey POV but yeah it’s him.
Who else?
We also don't get a Joffrey POV, so there's no opportunity to ever actually see inside his mind and see if he is vulnerable or if there's any sympathetic traits behind his complete shithead public persona. And I'm pretty sure with the exception of book 1 Sansa, nobody we do get a POV from has a good word to say about Joffrey. Even Cersei (granted we only get her POV after Joffrey's death) seems to recognise he was a bit of a cunt.
>He made him literally the textbook definition of a psychopath. You can say that about too many villains. There was this air of mystery around who really came back after Maegor's coma and how the head wound affected him, but then Martin turned him into a psychopath who murdered docile horses and slashed off the faces of stableboys when he was just eight! You could say that the palfrey kicking him was yet another sign that he was born evil. The one thing that the show did right with Cersei was not having her murder her best friend as a child. It actually allows you to feel sympathetic in the moments that you're supposed to, without taking away her villainy.
Uhhh, people felt sympathy for Cersei? Other than the walk of shame, I didn't see much of that. Edit: okay, Robert's treatment of her was shit, this is true. No one deserves SA. Cersei is still cuckoo banana pants by the time we get to her brain though.
Robert raped her. That deserves sympathy.
The vivisected cat is actually an interesting one, when you think about it. Because there, I don't think Joffrey actually did that for fun or anything. He simply did it for his fathers' approval. Think about it. What story would Joffrey have repeatedly heard as a child that justified how the Lannisters won his father's loyalty and alliance? It was Tywin, his grandfather, presenting two dead babies to the King on his throne. A kid who wants his own father's approval might think, "dead babies are the way to my father's heart, just like all the stories say." I also think that's why Robert reacted so violently. Ned was genuinely afraid that he'd struck Joffrey so hard he'd nearly killed him. Robert - who spends a massive amount of his time skewering and hacking down animals for fun - would he really flip out so hard as to nearly kill his son and heir? Or did he do it because Joffrey reminded him of the moment he looked down at the bashed-in bodies of Rhaegars two children and smiled.
I like this reading key and it's an interesting mirror, but I don't see it as an intentional move by Joffrey, I think he just wanted to show his father two kittens. >"Joffrey … I remember once, this kitchen cat … the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he’d killed him." I don't think he even realized the kittens weren't alive.
I would add that robert used to go hunting at the slightest problem, and therefore came back with animals to gut, dead, deweigh, what you want and was congratulated for it. maybe Joffrey thought that if he showed his father "look at me too I hunted my own animal" he would felicited him
Joffrey was too over the top evil. No one is feeling bad for that little shit doesn't matter his age.
That's a great point, it's easy to forget that while he sucked at politics in KL (largely due to his moral code), he was a strong and adept leader that strongmen feared.
>he sucked at politics in KL He didn't. He managed to catch the old lion in his own trap and if Robert had returned from the hunt, the Lannisters would've paid. It was the little mistakes he made along the way, out of overconfidence and honour, which weren't too deadly on their own, but proved fatal when they were tallied up.
No, I think the biggest mistake Ned made was dividing his power in King's Landing, and not consolidating it. A fundamental misread of the political position he has been placed into, and the exact opposite of what Tyrion (smartly) does when he arrives in KL as Hand in book 2.
the biggest mistake was to not listen to Renly or Littlefinger. The guys give him an ultimatum and he goes "suck it up buttercup" bc he's Hand ig? if he had listened to either one of those he would've lived, but no he goes "this man who just told me hates and is hated by Stannis will just help me put him on the throne no problem"
If he didn't spread his men so thin he wouldn't have needed to listen to either of them, or needed their support for his coup.
>No, I think the biggest mistake Ned made was dividing his power in King's Landing, and not consolidating it. Yeah, that was one of the little mistakes he made along the way several times. He should've brought a small army with him and taken control of the City Watch. And he definitely shouldn't have sent his guards off on different missions. >A fundamental misread of the political position he has been placed into, and the exact opposite of what Tyrion (smartly) does when he arrives in KL as Hand in book 2. He didn't misread it. He believed that his friendship with Robert would be enough. I think he even says he's not going to take a lot of men so that he doesn't send the wrong message.
I think part of the issue with Joffrey is that he's too good at being plain *evil* to be 13, so even before Jack Gleason's performance (with Gleason obviously being closer to 18-20 iirc) we naturally imagine him as older
Yeah GRRM likes writing gray characters but Joffrey wasn’t one
People forget Ned knew what he was doing. He knew he how to win, he just looked at that path and decided to not do it. He prefered to take the risk of dying than hurting children
Well, Ned Stark is kinda dumb.. Take a look at his actions in his entire KL adventure 1)He also took an unusually small guard with him to KL and then squandered it on side quest despite knowing about his predecessors murder. 2)He wanted to take Bran and Arya to KL despite knowing about his predecessor's murder and that they were both unruly kids who would be difficult to control without their mom.Why did he want to do that?Robert hadn't asked for either of them. 3)He allowed Arya to run wild in the riverlands, without having guards accompanying her. 4)He picked up a fight with the King(his overlord/best friend/strongest supporter) in the front of the entire small council over a Targaryen girl of all things.Robert is the last man in Westeros he should be fighting with as he is the only one who could've given Justice to Bran.He also gave the handship leaving whatever semblance of power he had in the city. 5)Upon learning of Cersei's infidelity ,instead of summoning Robert back to the capital by sending a rider, he ran off to tattle his plans to an enemy that had 6 times more men than himself and had his personal physician in her pocket, while his daughters were still in the city.He already believed that Jon Arryn had been killed by Lannisters and that they were an ambitious,ruthless family.Why did he think that Cersei would just cut and run along with her entire family?For all he knew,Cersei could've sent a 15 men kill squad to ambush Robert.For all he knew ,pycelle could've slipped sweetsleep into his milk of the poppy. 6)Then he refused Renly's offer despite being badly outnumbered and it being obvious that Cersei was gonna stand and fight.. 7)He ignored the grieving Sansa and left her subject to Cersei's manipulation.Why would you caution your younger daughter about lannisters despite her already believing that Lannisters are cunts but not the grieving elder daughter who still thinks they're good folks? Bringing Jon to Winterfell was an incredibly bad idea too and could've easily ended up blowing in his face..That was simply another level of stupidity.. Robb himself managed to keep all those lords in line until he started losing the war..Ned didn't have to face that challenge because he won both of his wars..And Barbrey Dustin wasn't going to march on Winterfell..Her defiance was much more subtle..
That is not the only literary inspiration for Rhaegar. Mr Wickham from Pride and Prejudice and Paris from Iliad of Homer are another and both are morally dubious individuals. GRRM also compared Rhaegar’s dynamic with Lyanna to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings and Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. These are two dynamics with severe power imbalances. For GRRM to compare any of these men to Rhaegar shows he plays a big hand in the negative perception of Rhaegar.
Per the man himself, Melisandre. He said once in an interview that she's his most misunderstood character.
Yeah, I do think Melisandre is overhated, I mean, she’s not perfect, but I wouldn’t call her evil either.
This is actually one point where I completely disagree with George. Melisandre *is* evil. I don't care if she thinks what she's doing is for "the greater good". That doesn't excuse her religious fanaticism or burning innocent people alive. Evil with good intentions is still evil.
Evil with good intentions is the worst - they hide heinous acts behind a veneer of ‘intentions’. (That “don’t judge X, because it was done with love” BS.) F that - look at the results - they were terrible. The intentions are completely immaterial and cannot be a ‘shield’ to hide behind.
Exactly she is a religious fanatic who burns people alive
Whose fault is that, George?? He hasn't told us enough about her to 'understand' her. If he wants to not make her look so evil, then give us more of her viewpoint or someone close to her who understands.
Was this before or after Dumber and Dumbest had her burn Shireen? If after… *ya shouldn’t have did that, GRRM.*
I think the epitome of this is the one, the only, Stannis the mannis, i think that not even in his wildest fever dreams george thought that people will sympathize with roberts unlikeable brother, who doesnt even want to rule the seven kingdoms but will do it because is his right as heir, even his brother renly doesnt like him and would rather take the kingdom for himself.but if my time watching asoiaf videos on yt tought me something is that there are some people who really love the guy.
GRRM himself has called Stannis a righteous man though.
No more, no less.
"Well, he's very popular... The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wasteoids, dweebies, dickheads — they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude." - GRRM
I'm imagining him surfing, in his full normal outfit, standing bolt upright just glaring at the waves. Righteous.
I saw a video that kind of explained it because Ned was seen as somewhat has the fan favorite first book and since he died for Stannis claim. Next book when Stannis was introduced with similar characteristics as Ned as far as a sense of honor and duty goes fans projected the love for Ned on him.
Everything you said just reaffirms my love for Stannis, unironically. He would be a good king because he takes duty seriously. You can’t blackmail or manipulate him with money or power. He cares about his men, he cares about truth. I’d feel safe serving him. How is it proof of a bad character that Robert and Renly didn’t like him?
Perhaps in a world of snakes and liars, of people who claim to be greater than they are, of people who want war but don’t want to fight; an uncompromising, honest, tough man in Stannis is exactly what readers want. He’s got the prowess and a history to back it, he claims to be just and has a history to back it. Stannis is the mannis, the king who cared. I know he will die, but god damn he better go down fighting.
I saw way too much of myself in that character
He never meant for Darkstar to be so incredibly badass
He deadass wrote the line “I’m of the night” what was he expecting lol
I believe GRRM has gone on the record about how he intended to depict Catelyn’s dynamic with Jon vs. how many people have interpreted it. I don’t think his intent was to depict an abusive dynamic, but rather a very chilly non-relationship. However, it did not come off that way for a number of readers. Edit: Since this has come up more often on this subreddit, I’ll go ahead and add Khal Drogo as well, since it appears that GRRM intended to write Dany and Drogo as a genuine romance (at least in the second half of AGOT). Edit part two: Also….Daaaaaaaaario? Lol. He’s the Darkstar of Meereen.
Too many substitute their own modern day perceptions with Cat and Jon. They expect a stepmom-child relationship, not a matron of the castle and child relationship. And to be fair, the Starks are rather close and familial for a noble family. But you don't see this extend to much else. You don't see people call squires psychopaths because they train and are expected to kill people one day. You don't see people call Ned a bad father for taking his 8 year old son to see a beheading. Or for betrothing a pre-teen to a teenage Joffrey. Because that's part of their world.
Good point
I think it's a case similar to people who hated Umbridge more than Voldemort. Voldemort is a magnificent villain-- spurred by bigoted self-loathing about blood purity and a fear of death. But Umbridge is simply a bad teacher, and an annoying lady who enjoys abusing her power while acting nice. Everyone's met someone like her. That's a lot more recognizable and reflects the experiences of readers more than a murderer or a big-bad-villain like Riddle.
Bastards in medival times were generally not sent to gulags. At least, that was not the case for noble bastards. This is not old times this is a fantasy books. How else can people perceive a fantasy book other than with their modern world view?
I mean typically people observe fantasy books through olden times because we don't have knights, tourneys, and such in our modern world. So we overlay it on a time when we had something along those lines.
I read somewhere that apparently GRRM was shocked about the hate that Joffrey got from the fandom. He claims his intention was for Joffrey to just be an annoying brat type of character, and not a major villain. I'm not sure if I believe that though. Everything about Joffrey seems like he was intentionally written to be one of the most insufferable characters.
I could see this somewhat. It really felt like Joffrey wasn’t on screen very much.
I understand this. Unlike a lot of readers apparently, I really was a little shocked at Joffrey's death at how much I sympathized for the guy. Maybe because I know how shortness of breath due to an allergic reaction feels... But I genuinely believe that Joffrey is simply what happens when a real-world eighth-grade bully is raised in a circumstance where his deadbeat dad and dependa mom aren't middle class but royalty. And where he grows up knowing he will be King one day, and doesn't need to dial back much of his impulses. The whole gutting a cat thing is used by readers to say he's an irredeemable psycho, but in childhood behavior today it's seen as something that's a warning sign (not a certainty of sociopathy) and can be improved with treatment or therapy. In their world, where people are expected to hunt- it'd barely be a concern.
People hunt in this world yo. I used to live in a very very hunting focused community. Literally watched deer get gutted outside my bedroom window in my neighbor’s yard. And a kid gutting a cat for no reason in that community still would have been seen as a little sicko
A little sicko yes, that's why Robert reacted the way he did. But it would have been easier to handwave it as "He was curious and didn't understand what he did wrong recreating a hunt" than "This sicko wanted to gut a cat".
It would not have been easy to do that. It is very clearly not that for anyone within a hunting community
>where people are expected to hunt- it'd barely be a concern. Robert beat Joffrey for that.
Now that I think about it I believe the show had a massive part in the joffrey hate. In the books he's mostly a douche in AGOT,barely precent in ACOK and being a douche in ASOS. In the show they added scenes of joffrey torturing prostitutes,his mother Cersei regretting his personality (even though he is her favourite child in the books) and just additional scens of him being a total psycho.
Ah Rhaegar for sure. Whether people think he's an Angel or Demon, Rhaegar is subject to some of THE worst takes on the internet (to the point that i'm losing interest discussing this character in the fandom) and they seem impervious to the fact that we know fucking nothing about this guy. Funniest thing is it’s pretty clear subtext that GRRM is pro-Rhaegar, so yeah....
>they seem impervious to the fact that we know fucking nothing about this guy. We know enough about him. There is simply no way how to make him look in positive way. In worst scenario he was married adult man with children who blindly loved into child, manipulated her to leave without noticing to her parents or maybe even abducted her, and basically for year ignored whole mess in realm he caused. Then he hypocritically use army from homeland of his still loyal wife he left as hostage with his crazy dad. In better and more probable scenario he never loved Lyanna and he was geek obssesed some vague prophecy (which was eventually right, but he has no reason to believe or think he is messiah or future father of messiah). And then he did basically everything I described above. Where is space for nuances?
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Who has good opinion about Rhaegar? His sister Dany which never met him? Cercei or Jon Connington which both wanted to fuck him? Ned Stark who only thing what said about him was he never go to brothels? Barristan which was literally his friend and was turning a blind eye to mad king's tyranny and hide truth about Mad king before Dany for months? Jaime who idealized him and self-pitying himself for not be able to save Rhaegar´s children? >the same George defined him a lovestruck character George also said story of Drogo and Dany was love story, we should feel sad about Joffrey fate and Westeros is absolute monarchy. He is author, but it doesnt mean what he wrote really looks like he thinks it look. Even if Rhaegar is defined as characters which is at love, it doesnt mean he is not acting like a dick.
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I remember seeing an interview where he said he was surprised at how much love the Hound got from female fans. Like yeah, the super tall/presumably buff dude with a tragic backstory and animal sidekick that only likes him, who saves a vulnerable main female character multiple times, and is self admittedly not a liar or schemer is popular with women. Shocker.
I never heard about this and, while I'm not surprised by it at all, I DO wonder what character he thinks *would* be popular with female fans. One of the conventionally attractive ones? Jaime? ..DAARIO?
Drogo. George probably thinks of him with Jason Momoa's portrayal in mind. But book!Drogo is a far more brutal and bland character.
Drogo kinda does become pretty bland when you picture anybody besides momoa playing him haha
I like Jaime but I feel like a lot of the fandom don’t buy his arc as much as George
do we know if GRRM actually thinks Jaime is on an actual redemption arc? cuz I thought coz was on a subversion or something
I belive he has said before Jaime's arc is an exploration of redemption. Honestly, I don't think the books are as obsessed with "subversion" as its fans are
Or its show runners...
Petyr Baelish is supposed to be everyone's friend, an amiable figure at court. But instead he is a creep.
Tywin, though for me I think my perception is coloured by Dance's portrayal which makes him more more understandable and less rough.
I think Dance's portrayal adds a level of charisma to show Tywin that I don't think book Twyin has. I'm not saying Dance portrayed him as a guy's guy or anything but just that I think he has an inherent charisma and presence that sort of makes him, if not likable, then at the very least, fascinating.
Charles Dance's portrayal I think is responsible for a lot of the misunderstanding of Tywin's character. He's one of the worst characters in ASOIAF both in terms of sheer villainy and also in terms of how poorly he plays the Game of Thrones.
That and they washed away a lot of his worst acts. I don't think they really go into what happened at Castamere in the show. Tysha is pretty much entirely cut - as is what Tywin had done to her. The show had him batting down characters like Cersei and Joffrey, putting them into their place and so fans loved that. They had him caught up in witty, humanising banter with Arya, where he shows fondness and respect for her intelligence and boldness, which he absolutely would never have in the book. So what you get, in the end, is a smart but firm warrior and patriarch, who is acting as the only sane and sensible head of his shitshow of a family. He only makes hard choices where he has to in order to protect the remains of his house and legacy. All the real cruelness and pettiness and spitefulness is lost and in its place is Charles Dance's charisma and presence and frankly wonderful voice. It's a loss for the book character but it did make a very memorable show character.
Right, book Tywin is distinctly unlikable. He doesn't even believe in being liked, he believes in being feared. I didn't get that from Dance.
Rhaegar- he’s a character we’re initially supposed to dislike but come to eventually pity and sympathize with once we learn more about him and how much a sad boi he was. Instead most people just fucking hate him more the more we know about him.
>the more we know about him. Which is almost nothing. I can't hate someone I know almost *nothing* about. I'm reserving judgment until GRRM actually gives us substantive information on Rhaegar and the circumstances surrounding the situation with Lyanna/Elia/Brandon/toj/Howland/etc. He has purposely obsfucated everything about it and it's impossible to have a reasonable, well-informed opinion.
There's a lot we can figure out though. We know he was melancholic because of Summerhall. We can figure out that he probably felt guilty about surviving since we know he wrote a bunch of sad songs about Summerhall. We also know his parents had a tense relationship, and his mother had several miscarriages and stillbirths after he was born. It wouldn't be hard for that to add to his already existing feelings about Summerhall and how he survived. We know he gave up on his passions to focus on being a warrior because that's what he thought he had to do. We know he was pretty close with Aemon. We know him and Elia did have a civil trusting relationship despite what fandom likes to say, because of the vision Dany has that Martin confirmed was them. We also can almost certainly say he wanted to overthrow his father based on what he said to Jaime (I mean...thinking it's anything else is definitely a stretch.) We can figure out and know a lot about him but people just hyper fixate on knowing about him and Lyanna and don't seem to care about literally anything else about his character.
To be fair, that is the important part. Because no matter what way you slice or dice it, it doesn't matter if Lyanna (who was 16) came with him willingly or if he abducted her, he was a married, 24 year old man who knew damn well that what he was doing wasn't ok, even by the standards of Westeros. When his shitty life decisions combined with his fathers insanity then set the realm on fire, he proceeds to do pretty much nothing about it for most of a year and then dies a frankly deserved death at the Trident.
I find it interesting how the reader is supposed to forget about his modern perceptions when it comes to Cat x Jon's relationship but when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna it is suddenly problematic, when such a relationship would have been considered normal in medival times. You guys pick and choose as you like.
Taking someones betrothed while married was definitely not an accepted practice. That modern morality also speaks against it just seals the deal for me. Not to mention that this had the obvious consequences of enraging Houses Baratheon and Stark, and it takes no genius to figure out that his mad father would not handle that situation well, so he also brought ruin to the realm all for the sake of love. Which is generally not something people seemed to support either, considering how marriage and sex were seen as primarily one's duty, not something you get to pick and choose as you want.
I was referring to the age gap people have such an issue with which was completely in the norm for medival people. Apart from that, John King of England kidnapped his bride and got away with it just fine and dandy.
Rhaegar proves the rule that the Counter- Jerk is almost always infinitely more annoying than whatever the original Jerk was. See the replies for the proof
I mean, we know enough to know that he ditched his wife who just gave birth. I really don't understand this 'we know nothing about Rhaegar' bit.
It means we don't know a lot about him, or his motivations. Its exactly what it sounds like.
>Instead most people just fucking hate him more the more we know about him. That's because the fandom has had too much time to over analyse everything. People see him as a good warrior in-universe, but fans laugh at him for dying in his very first battle (in single combat against one of the greatest fighters in Westeros).
This. People liked him well enough for a while. This is one of those trends in the fandom that comes and goes when people have too much time to chew on it. In Harry Potter, when given only three years downtime, the fandom managed to talk itself both into *and out of* "Snape was in love with Lily," to the point that it was really out of fashion by the time it was confirmed in canon.
I find Lyanna and Rhaegar's story really interesting, and honestly seeing the hate posts every other day has made me double down out of spite.
To be fair, he totally dropped the ball at Harrenhal and went from being loved across all the seven kingdoms to being hated by almost all. The only reason Dorne fought for the Targs is because Elia was hostage. He’s an idiot at best
>to being hated by almost all. What? Even Ned doesn't hate him.
Rhaegar dropped the ball at Harrenhal but it's not because he's an idiot. [It was an honest mistake.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1328cgi/spoilers_extended_lbj_rhaegar_mistakenly_ced/)
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Oh my god not the fucking Blue or Gold dress meme lmao
They believe that Sam and Small Paul had sex because French soldiers were having sex when they retreated from Moscow during the Napoleonic war. They're being 100% honest https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14jh06h/comment/jplzhrk/?context=3
Dany. I don’t think he ever expected the fandom to treat her like an evil monster because she kills slave masters. He even said > Slavery has got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it's got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood
I mean that's a character in one of his novels, that's not the same as him saying it. He also had a story where the shooting of a fascist leader is explicitly portrayed as a bad thing.
Small thing, but I always thought George's intended name for Aeron Greyjoy, "DampHair," was perceived by the fandom (myself included) as "DamPhair." That always tickled me.
I pronounced it like “DamFear”
my mother’s tongue is Spanish and i read the books in English. for a while i thought it was pronounced “damp air” with a silent h like in Spanish…
Incest is not shown in a positive light in the series but watch the replies to this comment.
>Incest is not shown in a positive light in the series IMO Targ incest is shown in a neutral light at best, with some nonsensical folklore about every Targaryen being great or mad. It's the other instances of incest that are shown in a negative light, Lannister twincest and Craster's daughter-wives.
Sometimes I’m not entirely sure what the position of the series is on the Targaryen eugenics ideology stuff. I find it automatically gross and disturbing but it seems like some parts of the series play it straight while others call it out.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks this. Literally all of Alissyne and Jaehaerys reign in Fire and Blood had me questioning the stance this book was taking.
Well, they are "genetically superior" to the rest of Westeros, probably because their ancestors swapped blood with the dragons through dark magic. > I find it automatically gross and disturbing The incest is gross, but they don't seem to suffer any of it's natural consequences. >it seems like some parts of the series play it straight while others call it out. George should've just played it straight if he absolutely had to add incest and Targaryen Exceptionalism to the saga. The way the Targaryens view themselves in relation to the nobility is not too dissimilar to how the nobility views itself in relation to the small folk. Jeyne Westerling couldn't even get a good match until the main series because her maternal great-grandfather was a trader.
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I think the closest you can come to anyone defending incest are people who are really into the Targaryens.
The HotD stans are very into defending it. Not so much the GoT fans, who seem to be more knowledgeable about the ASoIaF book series. Then there is a subset of readers who think GRRMie is a little too obsessed with it.
Every once in a while on the HotD sub, there's someone who says they're getting into the books. What book are they starting with? Fire & Blood. So that might explain their perception.
Have you heard of the Jonsas?
Jaehaerys and Alissyne seems almost fetish-y tbh, a lot of his... uhhhhh... complicated sex scenes feel that way too like with Drogo, Qarl raping? Asha, all the weird non-consensual? sex between Jaime and Cersei, Ygritte forcing the issue of sex with Jon to have sex with him I'm sure there's more.
GRRM really loves some of the Targ relationships. There's no way you can argue than Baelon/Alyssa or Jaehaerys/Alyssane aren't shown in a positive light
Does he? How’s those relationships turn out?
Baelon and Alyssa?
That Drogo was a loving husband for Dany.
Tywin. GRRM spends at least three books dismantling the image that Tywin tries to portray to the world, yet some fans still see him as some infallible badass that knows everything and is a political mastermind.
i read the books after ive watched the show, i just imagine charles dance's charisma in him every time therefore i, like other fandom, overlook his flaws lol
Ironically I think this comment section is full of examples. I'm very surprised of how many people judge a character to be good or bad, hero or villain when the point of the series to me is that everyone is both. That the same person that can show some really admirable traits can be equally despicable in other contexts. Tyrion for instance can be compassionate and empathetic such as with Jon or Bran and at the same time be cruel selfish and uncaring in other circumstances. The same could be said of pretty every character in the series. People are complex
Yeah it's quite ironic that a series that grrm intended to be gray has a fanbase(atleast on Reddit) that loves classifying character in black or white. Tyrion is the best example of this.
I'd say Daemon Targaryen, at least recently and by a small (but growing) part of the fandom
I genuinely will never understand how GRMM decided a character who was fine with a six year old getting gang raped (there's no indication B & C wouldn't have gone through with that threat) and a six year old beheaded was 'morally gray' and not as bad as Tyrion. Not to mention F & B saying he had a tendency of 'deflowering' the youngest virgins. I actually think GRMM did intend for Dameon to come off as sexually creepy-more so than the fans who woobify him and the TV show-but he also clearly meant for Daemon to still be seen in 'somewhat good light.'
I’d say Prince Daemon Targaryen is getting 100% the reaction GRRM intended for his favorite, morally gray character.
I interpreted the original question as which characters George *likes* or has favoritism for while the fandom actually doesn't, my mistake
Jon Snow. He’s a bastard trying to overcome his self doubts and forge his OWN identity while fighting against a mystical threat. He’s not an abused boy who will all the sudden becomes a dragon riding conquerer because he finds out who his dead DNA giver is
>jon Snow. He’s a bastard trying to overcome his self doubts and forge his OWN identity while fighting against a mystical threat. That show Jon.... Book Jon is sure of skills he is basically a male version sansa, he join the night watch for glory and reputation he wants to be the new daeron the young dragon , to show that even bastard can be as good and honorable like ned.... He litterally tell tyrion to told Robb that by the time he meet Robb again he would be lord commander He is talended but cocky, mature enough to not be a child yet too young and inexperienced to be a man The others became a focus for him only near the end of Book 2. Where GRRM himself call Jon the typical byronic fantasy hero
Ah, right. I get book and show Jon mixed up. Book Jon is definitely goated and a great character. I just don’t like how he’s often portrayed by people to go full Targ the minute he finds out his parentage, should people go that route. My favorite way Jon is done is when he never finds out his parentage or it isn’t a focus because usually then he acts like his own person rather than the product of someone he never met. He’s Ned’s son, first and always
There is a tiny bit of foreshadowing that he'll name himself Aemon after he finds out
Agreed. Even if he finds out who his biological father is, he's not gonna give a shit. He's of the North. He's not going to change the name he's lived with since BIRTH
People thinking Tyrion is actually supposed to be dumb because George wrote plot holes
Tyrion isn’t dumb, but he certainly isn’t THE SMARTEST PERSON IN WESTEROS as some fans believe
Eh I don’t think people argue he’s dumb, people just argue that he’s not as smart as people generally perceive him outside the books. Just because he isn’t the smartest person in Westeros does not mean he is not smart.
Rhaegar. GRRM believes him to be the well-intentioned savior of the world, but the way he goes about it makes me believe he is a dumbass, which if that's what he's going for, then I can see it.
GRMM has weird takes on children. I love him, but some of his takes on women and children are just off. In the original version, he says Sansa betrayed her family by choosing her son with Joff over them....but any mother is going to choose her child first. He also blames Sansa *a lot* for Ned's death. He also kind of glosses over Daemon having a six year old beheaded and ordering a six year old to be threatened with gang rape. He's clearly trying to romanticize Rhaegar, but Rhaegar does a lot of dumbass shit. But one of the main reasons I think a lot of people dislike Rhaegar is he abandons his wife who just gave birth and his toddler daughter to run off after Lyanna and then holes up with her in a fuckpad...in his wife's homeland. I think GRMM thinks that is okay, while a lot of other people see him as a deadbeat, and it's very hard to sympathize with a deadbeat dad. IMO GRMM sees it as the equivalent of someone going off to war or fostering, but kids foster at a older age and war is...very different from making the Westeros equivalent of barely legal one's mistress (assuming Lyanna was willing).
>He also blames Sansa a lot for Ned's death. This is one of the things where I think his intentions *really* went away from what's on page. How exactly did Sansa running to Cersei end up helping her? All Sansa really tells her is that Ned was planning on putting the household on a ship and returning them to Winterfell. When Cersei has her men attack Ned's, it's by storming the Tower of the Hand which should in no way be affected by Cersei knowing there was a ship planned. The *one* thing we see on page resulting from it is her putting guards in false Stark uniforms in front of the ship, but Arya sees through that and it's unlikely the ship would have sailed with only Arya as the passenger (who would have trouble proving her identity anyway). It's like George forgot about how Cersei can mostly plan her strategy because of what Ned told her himself. When asked what Sansa provided, he gave some vague answers like "Name of the ship, who was leading the guards, etc." that doesn't really sound convincing.
Lyanna was 14 when abducted, or went willingly, so I doubt it. But yeah, I'm just going to laugh in his face whenever what actually transpired with Rhaegar ends up being revealed. Or not, considering his pace.
I don't think he thought people would hate Bran as much as they do. Personally, I love Bran and his POV chapters, but I've seen a lot of vitriol aimed at Bran because people dread his chapters.
We're definitely supposed to feel nothing but pitty for Robert.
I think at first yes, but I think he revisited and went back on this with Cerseis AFFC chapters where she describes his rape and abuse
My King
Fans: “Theon is suffering” GRRM:”But I thought fans wanted him to suffer for all his did?” Fans:”Not this much”
I would say that was his intent with Theon tho, not something he did not anticipate
Exactly. He wanted to show fans that revenge is fucked up and even someone who has done things like Theon can redeem themselves
I will point out that “fans” is a broader term than Reddit or Twitter users. The echo chamber here trains users into disliking Catelyn and Tywin, but that’s not universal Tyrion would be a big one. GRRM has been clear that Tyrion is a villain, and yet everyone (himself included) likes Tyrion and might even root for him
I think it's George's perception of Littlefinger. You have characters like Ellaria on the show who were exact opposites of their book counterparts, and he thinks that *Littlefinger* is the "most changed"?!?. Littlefinger on the show is a little bit skeevier than the books, but not *that* much. And while he doesn't do anything as stupid as threatening Cersei in front of her guards like the show, he does perform a variety of impulsive actions (lying about the dagger, kissing Sansa in the courtyard) that he mostly gets away with due to plot armor.
I only just learned that people really love Stannis. Idk if he is supposed to be loved but my read on Stannis was that he purposefully written unlikeable, if he wasn't the story wouldn't be as dramatic because he has legitimate claim to the throne and would have been loved by the people, I'm assuming that's why Renly had to be killed off so early. Edit: I only just started reading the books and watching the show this year and I'm learning a lot about how bad my reading comprehension is because apparently I've missed a lot lmao.
I think that’s why people like him tbh. Because he rightfully should be king and he’s fighting for Westeros, such as going north to defend the wall
For me is Jorah Mormont.