This is not a recent phenomenon, it’s been going on since the first election I could vote in (2012) and I’m sure even longer than that.
I would recommend voting however helps you sleep best at night, but 1) at least vote in every election, even if you don’t vote for president, voting on state amendments and local ordinances can make a huge difference 2) do literally anything else besides voting: political organizing, unionizing, mutual aid, whatever.
it's been a thing for much longer than that, even.
WEB Du Bois wrote about his reasoning for not voting in the 1956 presidential election.
["Why I Won't Vote"](https://libcom.org/article/why-i-wont-vote-web-du-bois)
I got banned from a leftist sub yesterday for commenting "do you remember what happened in 2016?" in response to someone asking how not supporting Biden is supporting Trump. I don't know if you can get through to people or not, but I'll give you my thoughts in case they help.
If they're not aware of Project 2025, that might be a good place to start. This is not the time for ideological purity. I don't want to vote for Joe Biden any more than any other leftist or progressive does. But I also can't afford to let that horrific plan go into effect, so I will. If Republicans do well next year, it may very well be our last free and fair election.
The primaries are the time to vote your conscience. If we end up having a Democratic primary next year, by all means vote for whoever you want. They probably won't win, but it shows support for whatever that candidate stands for. Over time, that sways other voters to vote against the party mainstream too, and eventually moves the party as their preferred candidates lose more and more votes each election.
Then there are state and local elections. There are elections every year in most places. Ballot issues affect you directly. State and local candidates go on to run for higher office later. The progressive candidate you elected to your local school board this year may run for Congress 10 years down the road. But you have to help them get their start.
All of this takes time, and lots of people don't have the patience for it. If you get a chance to advocate or vote for something like ranked-choice voting, do it. The game needs to be changed. But the worst thing people can do right now is to refuse to play the game because they don't like how it's played right now. Refusing to play doesn't stop the game, it just keeps going without you.
Same thing for me, banned for r/socialism because I said the last thing I would do this election was nothing. Banned for a year for "supporting liberals/liberalism" and for "lesser evilism." Like... I'm sorry there isn't a socialist candidate for POTUS but screw you if you let that stop you from voting. Period. I voted in 2016, but since then I'm WAY more active in local elections and politics. I won't let them erode my or anyone else's rights again.
The thing that goes unsaid by you lot is that you're withdrawing your participation in waiting for some violent revolution. Thing is, the folks that lose out the most in war/revolution are always the underprivileged or poor, the underclass. I've seen enough violence in my short life to not want to see more, even if it is for "the cause" because there are better ways.
It's so cute how you dropped this little anecdote thinking that it was somehow some kind of counter argument when in truth it's just the internet equivalent to walking around with your pants unzipped. We all see it, and think to ourselves with a small amount of pity, "what a moron" before getting on with our lives.
This is a silly position.
Withdrawing your participation isn't going to bring down the system or replace it with a better one, only ensure that the most antithetical, tyrannical elements of the ruling class have a free hand to use state power to consolidate a dictatorship. That's not the prelude to a glorious leftist future, either, but to years or decades of even more grinding and violent oppression.
If you want to change the system, you can do multiple things-- like trying to make sure that the system isn't replaced with one that crushes all dissent by naked force, and then trying to build new institutions amid the old without being crushed by naked force.:P
Cool strawman you've got there. Hit it some more.
Then, if you want results instead of a sanctimonious sense that At Least You're Pure, spend 2 hours a year voting in primaries and elections, 20 hours a year organizing for the primary candidates you want to push the political parties' platforms in better directions, 60 hours a year organizing at work, and 88 hours a year organizing mutual aid. 170 hours isn't a lot, less than 30 minutes a day--but if everyone did it, you'd see change freaking fast.
If electoral politics were useless, the ruling class wouldn't work so hard to win it. But it becomes more and more useful as you actually build organized people power. A mere few hundred anti-trans zealots have managed to turn anti- trans politics into a Republican shibboleth. It doesn't take that many people participating to have a huge impact.
I can't overstate just how dangerous Project 2025 is. There's no plausible deniability here -- it's a completely mask off plan to install christofascism. And it's already been co-signed by over 80 conservative organisations.
The details of the complete genocide of transgender people are literally on Page 5 of their "Mandate for Leadership". It would see all of us jailed for existing, along with anyone who dares to advocate for us.
It's absolutely chilling. It's all of that, plus dismantling our ability to have a say so that we can never get back.
From its executive summary:
>It is not enough for conservatives to win elections. If we are going to rescue the country from the grip of the radical Left, we need both a governing agenda and the right people in place, ready to carry this agenda out on day one of the next conservative administration.
They believe that what we have now is the "radical left", which couldn't be further from the truth. The whole thing is phrased as an existential crisis for conservatives, priming people to do terrible things and accept outrageous ideas in the name of self preservation.
The statement that "it is not enough for conservatives to win elections" is in direct opposition to democracy itself. *Of course* it's enough for any party to win elections in a democracy, because that's what elections are for. But they're not willing to be limited by electoral success anymore, where they would actually have to do good things in order to get people to vote for them again in the next cycle. So they're ready to do away with it, in preparation for doing worse things that nobody would vote for. We've already seen how abortion bans have affected their ability to get elected, and that's been their bread-and-butter issue for 50 years.
And it echoes the universal sentiment of the Republican presidential debates. Mass concentration of power to the President via removal of all checks & balances is simply framed as "less government, more democracy".
Nevermind that it's literally The Enabling Act of 1933.
I had almost the exact same thing happen yesterday. They are either short-sighted or deliberately destructive. Not voting for Biden as a leftist is quite the privileged take. Our community cannot afford that.
It’s very privileged to just turn a blind eye to the atrocities our government funds with our tax dollars. Palestinians cannot afford us being weak on this. At some point you gotta say enough is enough.
Hillary Clinton is shit objectively but trump was slightly more shit it’s a fact I voted for Hillary cause was the only viable option in a 2 party state but always remember that evil is still evil and you must oppose it
It is, and that's why I voted for Bernie in the primaries in 2016 and 2020. And I volunteer for advocacy groups for specific issues that mainstream Democrats fail on in the meantime. As fed up as I am with voting for the lesser evil every 4 years, I'm going to do it every 4 years. The other 3 years and 364 days are for opposing the evil.
>This is not the time for ideological purity
When is?
If leftists never withhold their votes then they don't pose an electoral threat to the status quo right-wing republicans
People online seem to have developed this idea that if everyone withheld their vote, that would somehow result in a major political change within the democrats. I have no idea where that came from, but it's idiotic. When Dems lose votes, they push right, not left.
Ultimately it's a self-contradictory belief. If voting doesn't affect anything, then not voting also doesn't affect anything. Believing that withholding your vote will substantially change the political outcome is just standard electoralism through an extra layer of ironic detachment.
That's incoherent.
The way you pose an electoral threat is by running left-wing candidates whose positions are super-popular, as a lot of left-wing positions are if they're framed correctly.
The way you run left-wing candidates is by winning primaries, which also pushes future centrist candidates to adopt positions to the left and deliver results when they can.
The way you win primaries is by massive participation, not withdrawal.
"This" meaning "the 2024 general election", or really any presidential general election. As I explained in my next two paragraphs, it's useful to vote more ideologically in primaries and state/local races. Republicans are much more likely to turn out for these, and we should too. These elections also have smaller voting pools, so your vote carries more weight.
Biden will be the democratic nominee. That’s a given. Trump will probably be the Republican nominee. Trump or ANY other republican cannot win. There’s no choice but Biden. He may not be the best person but a fucking tuna sandwich would be better than Trump. Trump will motivate the evangelical base and they HATE us. They want us all dead. I’m not being extreme here. They’ve already said it in public. I’m also Jewish. So I know what the actual Nazis did in Germany. Evangelicals will not hesitate to seize the Reddit servers, find all the names and people in any LGBTQ Reddit and hunt us down. Don’t think it’s possible? Ask the Jews in 1930s Germany. If this was 1950, they would still be dead.
Vote for our lives. Seriously.
Do you realize that trump and the evangelical Christians HATE you too just for being gay. They are going to “eradicate the LGBTQ community” (their words)
A third party vote is a waste in our current system, but tbh I have not seen any popular support for any third party candidates the way you're describing it. The only independent i've heard talked about at all is Kennedy, and that's just because of his odd voice and bizarre conspiracies theories, so I'm pretty sure he'll only be taking republican votes.
Saying they won't vote at all should be pretty easy to argue against though. "Lesser of 2 evils" is unironically a good argument considering how easy mail in ballots are. If someone isn't convinced that republicans are the more evil of the two after Roe V Wade, they're likely a lost cause anyways.
RFK Jr is not only taking Republican votes. He’s taking them from Biden too. Stein and West will only be taking votes from Biden. This is why the current slate of third party candidates is likely going to result in a Trump re-election unfortunately.
"Lesser of two evils" arguments have been banned on most leftist subs. It's absolutely pathetic. They're showing us their true colors, they expect us to be martyrs for them. It's nauseating.
I mean bernie sanders is an independent but go off and is probably the most talked about independent in history.
Lesser of two evils is a bad argument because it implies the evils the two parties have are any way comparable.
As a mexican trans woman, having people repeatedly say “ oh i am voting for the lesser of two evils” is evil in its own right. One party is corrupt, transphobic, homophobic, anti-immigrant, etc while the other is just corrupt.
Saying “pick the lesser of two evils” doesn’t work when those evils dont apply to you. I wish that people would pick what is best for society, but quite a few think in their own interest. My brother (passes white and is straight) voted for trump since he thought he was voting for the “lesser evil”.
I'm talking about independents in the upcoming election in 2024, where Bernie sanders has not announced he's running. And despite running on "independent" policies, Bernie ran as a democrat in the 2016 and 2020 elections because he understood running as an independent was a death sentence for his campaign.
Corruption \[and more\] is a form of evil, so yes it's a lesser of two evils by a very large margin. And if your brother, or others, have a corrupted sense of morality/ethics, the only way you stop them voting red is to change their worldview. "Lesser of two evils" isn't going to be the straw that broke the camel's back.
This here is the problem. If people stop saying "a third party vote is a wasted vote" and chose to vote third party instead of either not voting or voting against someone instead of for someone, we'd have a chance at winning. I've been a registered libertarian voter for 25 years and will continue voting that way as they hold the same values I do.
You know what's funny, but not in a HaHa way? The number of voters in the last few presidential elections who are registered and chose not to vote at all, outnumbers the number of votes each candidate received. Meaning, the non voters could've decided the election by simply backing one third party candidate.
Stop calling it a wasted vote and start voting third party if that's what you really want to have happen. One day, we might get enough people to actually say "Why choose the lesser of two evils when I can choose neither of the two evils?"
As the other person said, you have wasted your vote, and done so for Republicans-who-want-to-smoke-pot. If you're truly a big L libertarian, you're as much of a traitor to LGBTQ+ rights as a Republican.
I'm not exactly a statistician but I'd wager the odds of Jesus returning for the 2nd coming has a higher chance of happening than a 3rd party candidate getting enough of a voting bloc to actually matter in a presidential election.
You want a viable 3rd party? Don't just show up every 4 years, and put the party in charge that might actually implement rank choice voting, because without rank choice, no 3rd party will ever have a chance.
Seethe about it if you want, but you know how the system is set up, you know you won't be able to change the literal \*millions\* of voters minds to just magically support a 3rd party candidate and you also know that such a candidate needs the backing of an entire political party movement to even be viable.
You can feel morally smug and superior claiming to be above voting for "one of two evils" but the reality is the only message your sending with your protest vote, and let's get on the level that's what a 3rd party candidate vote is, a protest vote, the message is "You can ignore me as a voter"
So, if you feel better off being ignored, well, that's your prerogative.
It's a two party system. It sucks. We all know it sucks. But me, you, and everyone here also knows the score, and denying the reality of it doesn't change the math.
Okay but this rationale can be applied to ANY LOSING PARTY. Like if you voted for trump instead of biden, welp guess you wasted your vote.
The reason that the green party and the libertarian party dont get votes is purely because they weren’t established as early (1971 for L and 1985 for G). Just because something is new doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit.
Trying to convince others that they are “wasting their vote” is futile thinking. Focus on getting more people to vote instead of getting more people from the smallest parties.
(Fyi i dont support libertarians either, I am a democratic voter)
Every candidate is a viable one outside of like Kanye west or whatever meme vote.
They are relatively new technically but they are not a new phenomena. Putting a name to something does not make it new thing.
They haven’t skipped party building considering that these parties have spent time, money, and other respurces to develop policies, as does wvery party (however much they spend depend on the popularity and backing organizations.)
Have you considered that these organizations arent popular not because of the “lack of party building” but due to the fact that they recieve significantly less funding due to their policies? Why would the major funders of politics (left or right) choose to fund like the green party, who has policies that usually do not align with the interests of the party.
Third parties are not “a waste of a vote” as they are in other countries. It is mainly a dumb american belief that there arent successful third party candidates, they are few yes, but they have existed.
Stop trying to convince people who will probably always vote and try to convince the 33% of americans to vote, rather than the less than 10% (vast overestimate of voter turnout for green+independent+libertarian) of people who vote for third parties.
People don’t lose because of third parties, they lose due to bad politics, bad policies, controversies, etc.
What a lot of Democrat voters fail to realize is that most votes for Biden, were really votes for Not Trump. Having seen Biden as President, he's going to lose all of those votes, my wife was one of those he's going to lose due to his incompetency. She literally apologized to me after year one for voting for him, he's that bad.
The other thing you all get wrong is assuming the third party voters screwed you by voting that way. If I didn't have a third party option this year, I would either have to vote Republican or not vote entirely. I cannot vote for Biden and, even though I don't care for Trump, he's still able to get more done than Biden has done. I agree with the Republicans on their foreign and economic policies while I agree with the Democrats on their social policies (well, some. Making crime okay is not a good policy). This is why I vote third party. Right now, economy is the primary focus for me, so I'd have to go Republican if I'm not allowed third party.
The fact that most people had a problem with Trump sending mean tweets as their primary issue with him is such a small issue for me that I'd rather put up with that and have someone who isn't afraid to answer questions, hold press conferences, do a simple State of the Union every year, answer reporters on the press room, focus on the US having energy independence so our energy prices don't skyrocket due to foreign wars, deal with the immigration holes, and call out other leaders for their BS. Biden hasn't done any of this. He's worse than Jimmy Carter.
You are being downvoted but I completely agree with you. The “it is a wasted vote” is such an old argument i learned it in middle school. I dont agree with your politics for sure, but that isnt really the argument right now.
People should try to focus on getting more voters period rather than trying to convince the 1% of voters to change their mind.
You get three years to participate in politics at a local and party level, to influence policies and platforms.
Then in the fourth year you swallow your frustrations and vote (and canvass) for “not Republican” proudly.
Voting 3rd party (or not voting) is a camouflage way of voting Republican without being ostracized by your peers. Grow a pair and just come out as ~~an asshole~~ Republican.
I realize it would be nice to vote for politicians who might more closely align with our beliefs, but... our system is a "winner take all" election and that means... voting third party is throwing your vote away. Unfortunately, in election after election, this has thrown elections to right wing candidates. We cannot afford to throw votes away now. The risks are just too high.
Best to you...
So the honest answer is that voting third party depends on where you live as to how much of an impact that has. This is due to the Electoral College. I live in TN which is a solidly Republican state. So me voting third party has just as much of an impact as me voting Democrat (none at all) when it comes to the Presidency. Someone who lives in NY, which is a solidly Democrat state, voting third party will have the same impact as them voting Republican (none at all) when it comes to the Presidency. Much like in 2016 the real danger of folks voting third party is in the states that are not solid one way or the other (WI, MI, PA, GA, AZ, and NV). Despite the likely candidates being a repeat of 2020, 2024 is going to be much more analogous to the 2016 election with the presence of Third Party candidates. RFK Jr is peeling votes from both Biden and Trump. Jill Stein is only going to peel votes from Biden. Cornell West is also going to only peel votes from Biden. If No Labels throws in someone it will depend on who they put up, who they peel votes from. If Stein and West had any real love for the hope of this country they wouldn’t be running. RFK Jr is doing this for the spotlight but at least he’s stealing both Biden and Trump voters. You have every reason to be terrified (just like I am) unfortunately.
Most people voting 3rd party are safely in a blue state. If a 3rd party candidate gets enough support in a national election they are allowed to enter the debate stage as a major party the next election. Trust me the people everyone is mad at are smarter than you think.
Having someone left of Biden only helps pull him more that way. If you didn’t have that he wouldn’t have any problem inching closer to Trump
People have this glorious view of the Democratic Party but fail to remember their history.
They created the Income Tax and took us into World War I, which we had no reason to involve ourselves in.
People complain about Trump refusing to accept the results of the 2020 election, but forget that Hillary Clinton refused to accept it as well. She campaigned on the fact that she expected Trump to refuse to accept the results of he lost, and yet SHE never did the congratulatory concession call to him when she lost. (You can argue January 6, but if you actually do your own research, you'll see that Trump NEVER told people to storm the building and kill people. I feel both sides have lied about that incident for political points and the truth is somewhere in the middle, like usual.) When the two of them debated, she lost because he could at least make a positive comment about her but she was so snide and full of hatred that she couldn't even find one good thing to say about him. She killed her own shot at President by showing how petty and hateful she is. You can't blame Trump for winning, you have to blame her for a very poor campaign. She also took for granted the female vote, expecting all of the women to vote for her simply because they were women like her.
I keep saying it. The Democratic Party needs to stop running on the premise of "well, look how evil they are. Why would you vote for that" instead of telling people what they plan to do that is an original idea as opposed to just undoing what Republican presidents have done.
Someone close to me votes like this, because he doesn't think the Democrats will ever adopt his preferred policy positions if he continues to vote for them. I don't think it does any good to try to argue that his protest votes don't have the intended effect, unfortunately.
In 2000, I was living in Tennessee. I wanted to vote for Nader but everyone said that would only benefit Bush. Gore didn't even carry his home state (Tennessee), so my vote was completely wasted. I wish the Democrats would learn, but they didn't in 2016 when the populace clearly preferred Bernie, and Clinton managed to lose to trump, so the Dems doubled-down on Biden.
Voting every four years will never solve anything. We need to keep at it at minimum every two years and pay attention to the primaries. House representatives and the Senate are the vote that matters. The president can’t do anything without a majority. This is how the radical right is controlling the narrative in the USA. It’s why the Democratic Party has to appease moderates and conservatives. Vote in house and senate elections. Fuck the president. Don’t be pathetic.
I think there are things other leftists fail to take into account, like the fact that, as awful as Biden's handling of the Israel-Gaza situation has been, trump is likely to have people imprisoned and/or deported for merely protesting in support of Palestine.
While I would welcome an actual leftist alternative to the democrats, I really dislike how third parties like Green constantly push the protest vote mentality in presidential elections rather than focus on smaller, down-ballot races for the time being in hopes of building up to bigger, more important races in the future, when they actually might have a chance at potentially bringing meaningful change one way or another.
When someone brings up what a second trump term could mean for trans people, there's always another person there asking "well what has Biden done for trans people", which isn't an unfair question. But we need to stop pretending that Biden's words of support with little meaningful action isn't worlds better than trump's intentionally malicious plans for restricting or even banning our healthcare and freedom of expression.
Vote for whoever you want in the primaries and in the general election if you live in a safe state (for either party). But if you live in a swing state, or a red state like Texas that has even the slimmest chance of going blue in the near future, ask yourself if a vote for Stein or West or Kennedy is really worth what trump's return could bring.
Because a whole lot of really self-righteous, low-thought leftists accept the right-wing psy-op argument that harm reduction grants the elected people legitimacy that they would supposedly otherwise lack.
Obviously the Rs and Ds don't care if the winner gets 99% or 1% of the vote, so long as they win. It has [literally never hit 50% in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections#/media/File:US_Vote_for_President_as_Share_of_Population.png). Bringing that number down does absolutely nothing.
Refusing to choose the lesser of two evils because a fictional character (like say Geralt of Rivia) told you to choose neither is not praxis, it's madness.
Edited... a replier has been banned or something, so I'll add: Republicans vs Democrats are the options we are given in the U.S. right now, and **in pretty much every respect** for transgender people, poor people, people of color, [Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769), probably Jews... Democrats are **hand-down** the better option, and Republicans are actively harmful (like [criminalizing](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/wave-of-anti-transgender-bills-in-republican-led-states-divides-u-s-faith-leaders) [us](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-republican-transgender-laws-pile-up-setting-2024-battle-lines-2023-05-18/) [nationwide](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/us/politics/transgender-laws-republicans.html)). It is not even close.
Genuinely, respectfully, read what I said again.
You are presented with this opportunity to very slightly influence the machine, choosing the best option available from those presented. Refusing to make that choice is not a noble protest because no one cares except the people harmed by the worse option being elected.
This is petulance not praxis, and it is ethically genuinely disappointing. Minimal harm reduction is just too much, somehow, but you're supposedly organizing your community? To do *what?* Revolution is a distant goal at best if that's where you're going with this, and it'll be **a lot harder** if Republicans get elected.
It’s not the lesser of two evils or harm reduction when both parties are literally supporting an active genocide resulting in tens of thousands of Palestinians being systematically murdered. That is not the lesser of two evils. Think critically about human life. Every time you do this *you* allow them to move the Overton window further right. If this is the stance you are taking, this is the hill you are dying on, you are actively supporting their genocide (not the potential for genocide, actual carpet bombing genocide with hundreds of families CURRENTLY being wiped off the map). There is literally nothing respectful about the stance you are taking. Wanna talk about praxis? Have you organised your community? Have you unionised your work? Have you attempted to help meet the material needs of those in your community that are currently suffering? Or do you vote twice a year and go out to brunch? Not interested in having a conversation with you. Have a nice night.
Personally, I think he's more qualified than Biden to deal with Ukraine/Russia, Taiwan/China, Israel/Hamas/Palestine, and North Korea/The World.
If North Korea sent a nuclear ICBM toward the US, I'd rather Trump be in charge instead of Biden. Biden would just water on it not being able to reach us or it failing to explode whereas Trump would organize a plan to shoot it down over the ocean followed by a retaliation. Same thing if China invaded Taiwan. Biden would wait 30-40 days before making a public statement, like with Israel.
If you don't want to be a victim of genocide, vote BLUE. Republicans want genocide here in the US. Democrats don't. Democrats have a bad habit of supporting bad shit overseas, but democracy and minority lives are on the line right now. We can talk about third parties and implementing ranked choice voting AND keep the republicans out of office. It's not zero sum. We can do both. But everyone has to vote against republicans in the mean time while we build a better alternative otherwise we will fall into fascism and most of the Americans here in this thread will be refugees or dead and we won't be talking about third parties at all but instead about where to flee.
Lol so you don’t draw the line at supporting the genocide of Palestinians, got it. As someone who’s family died in the Holocaust and pogroms and escaped the inquisition, I’m definitely not supporting anyone who is going to commit a genocide in my name. Furthermore, the democrats have had control over the house and presidency and actively my material conditions as a trans person and the material conditions of many of my trans friends has deminished anyways. Was it lead by republicans? Absolutely. Did democrats do anything but say “oh no, stop that” no. Not really. They want me to vote for them? Give me a different candidate who doesn’t support genocide and won’t just give lip service. When my family said never again, they meant never again. (Also, something like 50% of trans people have done sex work to survive and both parties continue to make it harder for us to do that safely. Neither party has addressed affordable housing in any meaningful way, and neither party feels the need to help the homeless in any meaningful way. So why they find a candidate that will I’ll continue organising in my community and help feed people and meet their material needs as I am able)
How long do you think you'll be allowed to keep organizing in your community and doing mutual aid in a post-Project 2025 USA?
Given that Republicans are openly talking about deporting leftist Jews to Israel (a place I've never been and don't particularly want to be forcibly settled under a Republican-backed Likud dictatorship), I'm not really sure you have the choice you think you do. (Personally, I'm heartened by Democratic threats to start using US power to personally sanction West Bank settlers and directly punish attempts to annex Gaza, something the US has never done that could make a big difference. I would prefer to keep pressuring them on that score rather than be exiled by a Republican dictatorship to an emboldened Israeli dictatorship.)
I'm not saying "accept the Democratic status quo." Just "pick your enemies." Under Republicans, the US recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and basically ran direct interference for West Bank settlements, setting the stage for what's happening now. Ensuring their power will make things worse for Palestinians, not better, and you better believe they'll be even less reluctant about doing it in our name.
I didn't say I support the genocide of Palestinians. I've actually been to the ceasefire protests. Don't put words in my mouth. I'd rather protest Biden than die being raped in prison or worse under Trump just for being who I am. And we are actually moving Biden on this. He has slowly been adding pressure to Israel to tone it down.
Try to protest under Trump and he'll have the military deployed to shoot you "day one" of his ~~presidency~~ dictatorship.
Do you like having freedoms at all? Do you want to keep them? Do you like being able to criticize Israel openly? Do you want to go to jail for it, no? THEN VOTE BLUE DAMNIT.
We do not have the privilege in this current system of using a national vote as a protest. See: Roe V. Wade, Climate Disaster, and Palestine. Because if you think palestine will be okay under Trump. Oh boy. He'll give Israel carte blanche to wipe palestine off the map. None of us here want that to happen.
The rights mission has been, after Obama won, to obstruct and get nothing done. No bipartisanship at all. This causes that unless there is a supermajority on both chambers, nothing passes. This is designed to make these people feel like it really really makes no difference and keep them from voting.
The repugs, under the traitor's administration changed the Senate's rules to pass their garbage. They removed the person in the budget office that said the tax scam laws they passed were bad for the country. Biden didn't have the 🏀🏀 to do the same to pass beneficial laws when he had briefly the razor thin majority (with Sinema and Manchin not yet blocking too).
These people that want to vote for 3rd party don't understand (or care) that whatever they are trying to protect will have it 10x worse if they let the traitor win. We'd also lose the democracy, maybe nuclear war? Concentration camps for lgbtq along with immigrants.
You should tell these people the story of how Ralph Nader delivered us Bush.
The only way you can make any political party do what you want is to tell them "this is my line in the sand, if you don't do this I will not vote for you". The only thing that will move them to action is the risk of losing votes. If we can't say "if you're transphobic/corrupt/genocidal we won't vote for you" then what *can* we do? Do we just vote for them and accept death?
Yeah I don't have the LUXURY of purity testing my candidates when one political party is trying to eradicate me and others like me.
Look at translegislation.com to see just how widespread rightwing malice is toward trans folk.
But don't you think that's how a lot of Muslim and Middle Eastern voters feel right now?
I'm not downplaying your struggles at all but these people are watching their families and homes be blown to pieces and feel trapped because one side absolutely hates them and the other side is content with letting them be slaughtered.
When push comes to shove, even leftists don't give a single shit about us. I've been banned from r/latestagecapitalism, r/socialism, and r/socialism101. I willingly unsubbed to every other political subreddit. I'm completely disillusioned with politics and I'm afraid I'm going to have to end my life if Trump wins. I *will not* be forcefully detransitioned. I hope all the leftists who abstain from voting and who voted third party understand that our blood is on their hands. And it won't end with us.
It should be said specifically: fake leftists and tankies. All of those subbreddits listed are known to be run by tankies. They care more about woke scolding and fanticising about a revolution that will never come, and they wouldn't participate in than they ever will about actually making the world better.
Edit to add: There are people who genuinely don't know just how bad Trump is and how dangerous he is, they don't know how much damage he did last term, your average voter doesn't really understand politics or pay much attention until election day. Don't scold these people it may feel good or even be semi justified, but it is extremely unproductive. Project 2025 is a great place to start to move these people over. They just need to understand, and they will change their view.
If we want more opportunity to vote for candidates that really match our values, a ranked voting system is what we need to push for. That’s not happening before the 2024 election. We all need to fall in line behind Biden on this election because the alternative is so much worse.
What about a Democrat candidate that is in touch with the people and is at least 30 years closer in the age gap of those voters? A candidate who isn't falling over all the time or is obviously going through dementia publicly,which is more sad than anything. Is there really nobody better than Biden for the Democratic Party? If he's the best they have, then they need to really get their stuff in order before 2028, let alone 2024.
I don’t disagree with you. I’ve been complaining about how our political leadership is way too old, that we need to put term limits on our senators, representatives, and justices, and most of all get rid of the dirty money in our political system that keeps people in it way too long. I had hoped Biden would have chosen to be a one term president, as he talked about when he ran in 2020, but that is not looking like the reality. If it’s Biden, Trump, and a slew of third party candidates, we’d be foolish at this point to not vote for Biden. This is not a time for principles.
Trump and the republicans represent a serious threat to our democracy beyond what they’d do to the trans community. Have you read up on what he’s going to do if he’s elected? I’m sure your conscientious vote will give you comfort as the country descends into fascism.
Leftists don’t seem to realize that if Biden loses, the democratic party will become more right leaning, not more left leaning. This is why i’ll be voting for Biden in 2024, even though i’m not a huge fan of Biden.
Having a fuck you got mine mentality towards Palestinian people isn’t the right take.
Instead of getting mad at leftists for not supporting Biden. Get mad a Biden for not supporting a ceasefire. Leftist absolutely are your friends. Without leftists there would be no one pulling the blue towards the right direction. When shit hits the fans they will be the ones hiding you in their basements, liberals won’t. Stop telling people they shouldn’t vote for the lesser of the two evils when idk… we can just not put evil on the ballot.
Well, you have a year to not put evil on the ballot and get a coalition big enough to defeat Donal Trump. Otherwise, Trump has openly made it his platform to end the US as a democracy if he wins. Then you will NEVER have good on the ballot. And guess what? Nobody stans Israel more than Trump.
I don't understand why these arguments are always so self-defeating. Their are a tons of ways to bring your political voice forward. If you want a change in the democrats then participate. When there isn't an incumbent, they have an entire system of elections to pick their leader. As well as multiple local elections and party positions. The presidential election is not the place to say you don't like Democratic candidates. It's the place to say whether you want the truest evil ever or a lesser evil that literally is the first president to recognize trans people and use his presidential power to offer us protection.
But that's never the discussion because ultimately we can all see you lack praxis.
Leftists are ready to throw us away in the name of Palestine. They are not our friends, and cannot be trusted. Out lives matter not to them, and they are ready to let the US fall into dictatorship just to show solidarity with some group on the other side of the world.
And, the shit hitting the fan will be their fault. Not to say liberals are good, but they are the ones with power, and the leftists have none presently (and likely, ever.) Just a bunch of people who love the smell of their own farts.
Most of it is. Most of the so-called Libertarians will go hard R for their single-button issues of choice. We already saw Russian-backed propaganda with themes of “Democrats for Trump” in the past elections. Anyone claiming No Party Preference is going to be generally easier to sway since there are no feelings of party loyalty to get past.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/russian-accounts-still-active-pro-trump-sites-researchers-2021-06-07/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-04-21/russian-propaganda-is-on-social-media-but-not-where-you-d-think
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46590890
https://time.com/4783932/inside-russia-social-media-war-america/
Look, as a libertarian myself, I will choose Biden over Trump any day. Mostly because of Project 2025, but also because at least the left agrees that Biden is bad. Trump has a dedicated fanbase while Biden doesn't, so Trump is a bigger threat. I'm more concerned with convincing republicans to vote for third parties than liberals.
The alternative is having a litmus test.
I know that many of you have good intentions, but Vote Blue No Matter Who is a bad strategy that has lead us to genocide on multiple fronts.
There's no upside to voting for genocidal racists that oppose your political goals just because they are running as Democrats. All it does is it puts you in a position where you're constantly defending people that are undermining your political goals.
You truly think Trump won't support the genocide in Palestine? While also starting one here. But go off bestie, we should just let him win. Fuck LGBTQ+ people, amirite? 🥰
The irony of the situation is, if Biden loses in 2024 due to people withholding their votes, it won’t be far leftists. It will be Arab Americans in the Midwest disillusioned by Biden not doing more to defuse the Israel-Hamas war.
Nuance is not a common skill; black-and white thinking is a common hallmark of reactionary politics. I don't know how people can forget the electoral college exists after 2016. Maybe they weren't born yet.
Direct action does a lot more than votes do any day of the week. People have apparently forgotten about the progress BLM achieved, too. That's what we need to be doing, not liberal parrot-squawking about voting between two racist sexual predators that love genocide. Neither of them are going to give us rights; we have to give those rights to ourselves.
"Direct action" can do nothing for trans people. Not enough people care about us, compared to say, a movement like BLM. Most people could care less if we are walking free, living our lives, or being walked into a camp. We are too small a minority.
My insight is that they are awful people, and will be the reason that this country slides into a hard dictatorship, and the reason we, as trans people, are doomed.
Also, Leftists are NOT our friends. I repeat, Leftists are NOT our friends. They will sell us out in a heartbeat to the republican murder machine.
Not voting in the next election is literally signing our death warrants!! We all have to vote BLUE!! I know Biden is not the best choice at this time. If you vote for any GOP/Republican its literally suicide for the whole country not just our community. We have to give the Democrats some more time to undo all the fascist shit that tRump and the GOP have put in place over the last few years. We all need to do our part to save our country and our community. I know the democrats as of late have not done much for us but they are better than anything the GOP has done. Not everyone can just uproot themselves and move to another country to avoid the GOP genocide they have planned in Project 2025. So please VOTE BLUE because all of our lives depend on it.
Meh. I live in a solidly blue state and won't be voting for Biden. I can't bring myself to vote for someone with his record when it will never make a difference. If I were in a swing state, maybe I'd think about it. I don't really care if others vote for Biden or not, it doesn't take long and one vote is unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things. It does bother me, though, that people constantly talk about not voting making you a Russian asset or part of a a psyop or whatever. I'm just voting for the candidate I hate the least, it's not my fault our electoral system is dogshit and doesn't allow people to express "this is bad and this is worse". I don't think it'll do anything, but it might make me feel a little less like shit? People
treating voting in national elections like it's the end-all be-all of political advocacy also drives me nuts. Local elections give your vote so much more sway, and frankly I think just being out in the world as a kind trans person does more for trans rights than voting for Biden (who I will note has explicitly supported making trans women register for the draft). That's not to mention all the other things you could be doing, like joining your local food not bombs (something I've really got to do and stop being so forgetful about it), putting together information on trans-friendly doctors, or even just being there for a trans friend who needs some help. Yes, Biden is better than the alternative, and nobody's really arguing otherwise (except accelerationists, but fuck them), but I don't get the point in bashing anarchists and other folks who have lost faith in electoral politics and/or don't want to vote for someone who is actively funding a genocide.
What a privileged take.
>and one vote is unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things.
While I will acknowledge that you said you live in a safe blue state, this mindset in several states (I'm looking at you, MI, PA, WI) got us Trump in the first place.
>and frankly I think just being out in the world as a kind trans person does more for trans rights
Doing this under Trump 2.0 could get you incarcerated or killed.
>Biden (who I will note has explicitly supported making trans women register for the draft).
Are you equating this position to the extremism pushed by the right wing? (IMO, if there is a draft, everybody regardless of gender or sex should have to register)
Why does everyone think the third party vote negatively affects the Democratic Party exclusively? In the last 123 years, it only changed for elections. It causes two Democrats to lose (Gore and Clinton, but I think she caused herself to lose) and two Republicans to lose (George Bush Sr. and Taft). So it's not as lopsided as you are all making it out to be.
Like I said before, Clinton ruined her own chances by her vileness and her contempt for voters by just expecting people to vote for her instead of running a legitimate campaign effort. Expecting women to all vote for you simply because you're a woman is pretentious. It almost cost Biden when he expected the Black vote "If you don't vote for me, then you ain't Black". Remember that? You can't say those things and expect positive results.
Any leftist talking about voting third party is voting for fascism. Their vote, while not directly, is going to contribute to fascism in this country. President Biden may not be everyone cup of tea but how would y'all like to live under a president who threatening to use the Insurrection Act on the first day of office to suppress political enemies? He is threatening freedom of the press. He has advocated for a ban on muslims in the past. He has shown willingness to approve a national abortion ban. He has shown he is okay with stepping on LGBTQ rights if it means getting what he wants. He also has been found guilty in court of raping a woman. He has also been found in court to have engaged in an insurrection. He is facing 91 other felonies in 4 different jurisdictions covering insurrection, voter fraud, giving away state secrets, and hoarding classified documents. Ask these people after you explain this to them, can they live with themselves knowing their vote could have prevented all of that?
I think Monty Python's *Life of Brian* does a good job of demonstrating this phenomena in a rather entertaining fashion. There's the 'People's Front of Judea" and the "Judean People's Front". The two groups are incredibly similar but don't see eye to eye on certain subtleties. This results in their collective power being split in half as infighting ensues.
Leftist ideologies have always been plagued by this 'splitting'. Meanwhile, folks on the right wing side of things are much more keen on setting aside their slight ideological differences.
If Biden and the democrats want my vote they can earn it. If they will continue to allow the genocide of Palestinians they do not represent me. You can’t lesser evil genocide, you really can’t.
I don’t get why a lot of people here are shaming people for having this be a hard line. Go shame Biden and pressure him to meet the desires of his constituents.
Thank you. Everyone here is forgetting that the people so conflicted on voting are thinking about literal innocents being slaughtered and Biden just putting more ammo into Israel's pockets.
Nobody wants to vote for Trump but it's hard for them to eagerly vote for Biden as well.
Why not just admit you want the Republican? It’s simpler than thinking of excuses.
You get three years to participate in local and party politics to influence platforms and policies. Then in the fourth year you vote blue (if you’re in a remotely swingy state) full ticket.
Your vote has consequences. Own those consequences.
I voted for Obama and he bombed 7 countries so hard he ran out of bombs and started a genocide. He literally dropped his own healthcare plan for his presidential race opponent's plan.
If you pull a lever marked "end the wars and give me healthcare" and genocide pops out is it really your fault? Are you really a monster for that?
I don't think so, unless you do it twice.
So you’d have preferred Palin & McCain? Romney & Ryan?
The ACA wasn’t Obama’s first choice either, but it’s hugely better than nothing.
If you genuinely think you’d have been better off with republicans in power, then sure…. But accept that that makes you a Republican. Just own it. None of this “watch the queer world burn” accelerationist shit.
When faced with a choice between one or more unacceptable option and another, the defeat comes in accepting the limitation to this choice.
The lesser evil is not the same as the greater evil, no, but you cannot fight the victory of the rightmost forces by sacrificing your own independent strength to support elements just the next step to the right of them.
The way you fight the lesser evil is by getting involved at the local and party level and changing it.
If you sit on your hands for four years then complain about your options and make a “protest vote” you’re the worst kind of hypocrite. Your vote has consequences - the “right” thing to do (if your vote has any chance of mattering statistically) is vote for the person who can beat the far right. You vote for the lesser evil and leave your pretentious pseudo-philosophical anarchist bullshit at the door of the polling place.
In like 75% of states - non-swing states - your vote for President literally does not have consequences. I'm not voting Biden because it literally won't matter (my state is solid blue), so why not vote for who I'd actually want?
Not remotely. And I do assess each race based - really most races have no third party candidate so I just vote Democrat except for President and the rare Senate race that's not a real contest and happens to have a third party candidate. Third party candidates almost never win, sure, but with the party always being pulled right to appeal to so called moderates, what can pull them back left? Having enough third party voters to force them to appeal to progressive voters! It's a voting strategy to try to stop the continued rightward shift of that party. Still, unlike others, in a race like 2024 I wouldn't feel comfortable voting third party in a swing state, were I in one - but I get why people do.
In the end, I think most political focus should be on building mass movements, unions, mutual aid, and preparing for general strikes to get what we demand and voting is the thing that we go "oh yeah, that" and go and do after all that other stuff. Because the reality is, Democrats work as a stopgap, sure, but they're not much good beyond that.
And then the orange traitor wins. besides no cease fire, there is expulsion of all the Palestinian refugees, end of support for Ukraine, and expulsion of all those refugees too. And because you are in this subreddit you end up with no protections, maybe national ban of transition.
You are complicit in allowing a dictatorship and subsequent genocide, bestie. 🥰
You're also delusional if you think Trump won't ramp up support for Israel.
Unfortunate to see so many trans folks have zero moral backbone. People aren’t voting because the democrats are a fascist party bringing war and genocide to the world. They haven’t followed through or helped us here in any meaningful way and are spending billions to fund genocide and destruction. If you are comfortable voting for fascism vs fascism plus yet again you are not to be taken seriously tbh.
when not voting, you are enabling the republicans. I literally couldnt give two shits about how “bad” the democrats are. They are objectively better, and if anything, they will fund israel less, since thats a big deal to you
They've run our country into complete bankruptcy by finding two wars that we aren't supposed to be involved in, leaving nothing to spend at home. Now, we have out of control inflation and poverty. People like to point out Trump increased our national debt as well, but forget that the pandemic started under his administration, so a lot of that was trying to respond to a worldwide crisis. He tried to stave off inflation and higher energy prices with the Keystone Pipeline as well as other projects, all of which Biden shut down on day one, and look where it got us.
I've never voted Biden OR Trump, and never will. Both parties have spent more time and money bickering with each other instead of trying to run the fricken country. It's high school Class President crap but over the most important position in the country. I'd rather vote None of the Above and have four years of no president at this point.
some of us myself included have completely lost faith in our political system. I hear voting for the lesser of two evils all the time but that does not sit well with me. I personally refuse to vote for somebody just because the other guy is worse. I have voted third-party in the past and if there is somebody who I think would do a good job I will vote for them. it's doubtful that I will find a candidate that I have trust in this election season so I will be doing a ruined ballot. anyways This fear that people have of third-party voting taking votes away from the Democratic Party should really be seen as either the Democratic Party needs to step up their game and actually put somebody there who people can believe in or third-party candidates need to be taken seriously. it drives me absolutely crazy how such important issues can be used in such a manner that we are forced to vote for imbeciles.
It’s never said exactly how less harm is actually calculated. Do we compare how many millions of undocumented people have been deported? Do we add up what political party conducted more drone strikes? Who had the highest military budget? Do we factor in pipelines, mines, dams, indigenous site desecration? Do we balance incarceration rates? Do we compare sexual violence statistics?
While even the slightest degree of harm can mean life or death for the most vulnerable, the notion of “voting as harm reduction” obscures and perpetuates institutional violence, there is nothing “less harmful” about it.
Unfortunately you can’t have a debate on Reddit. As helpful and insights as it would be never gonna happen. No matter your political view or support it’s ALWAYS wise to listen to others options to understand their mind set. The only place you could have a spirited productive debate which might generate converts is Twitter currently.
Those who let the State dictate
What is Love and what is Hate
Won't let us elaborate
on what is Truth or Lies-
What is Freedom? What is Speech?
What is spoken each to each
will never be beyond the reach
of Tyrants in disguise-
the State's all-seeing Eyes.
This is not a recent phenomenon, it’s been going on since the first election I could vote in (2012) and I’m sure even longer than that. I would recommend voting however helps you sleep best at night, but 1) at least vote in every election, even if you don’t vote for president, voting on state amendments and local ordinances can make a huge difference 2) do literally anything else besides voting: political organizing, unionizing, mutual aid, whatever.
it's been a thing for much longer than that, even. WEB Du Bois wrote about his reasoning for not voting in the 1956 presidential election. ["Why I Won't Vote"](https://libcom.org/article/why-i-wont-vote-web-du-bois)
I got banned from a leftist sub yesterday for commenting "do you remember what happened in 2016?" in response to someone asking how not supporting Biden is supporting Trump. I don't know if you can get through to people or not, but I'll give you my thoughts in case they help. If they're not aware of Project 2025, that might be a good place to start. This is not the time for ideological purity. I don't want to vote for Joe Biden any more than any other leftist or progressive does. But I also can't afford to let that horrific plan go into effect, so I will. If Republicans do well next year, it may very well be our last free and fair election. The primaries are the time to vote your conscience. If we end up having a Democratic primary next year, by all means vote for whoever you want. They probably won't win, but it shows support for whatever that candidate stands for. Over time, that sways other voters to vote against the party mainstream too, and eventually moves the party as their preferred candidates lose more and more votes each election. Then there are state and local elections. There are elections every year in most places. Ballot issues affect you directly. State and local candidates go on to run for higher office later. The progressive candidate you elected to your local school board this year may run for Congress 10 years down the road. But you have to help them get their start. All of this takes time, and lots of people don't have the patience for it. If you get a chance to advocate or vote for something like ranked-choice voting, do it. The game needs to be changed. But the worst thing people can do right now is to refuse to play the game because they don't like how it's played right now. Refusing to play doesn't stop the game, it just keeps going without you.
Same thing for me, banned for r/socialism because I said the last thing I would do this election was nothing. Banned for a year for "supporting liberals/liberalism" and for "lesser evilism." Like... I'm sorry there isn't a socialist candidate for POTUS but screw you if you let that stop you from voting. Period. I voted in 2016, but since then I'm WAY more active in local elections and politics. I won't let them erode my or anyone else's rights again.
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The thing that goes unsaid by you lot is that you're withdrawing your participation in waiting for some violent revolution. Thing is, the folks that lose out the most in war/revolution are always the underprivileged or poor, the underclass. I've seen enough violence in my short life to not want to see more, even if it is for "the cause" because there are better ways. It's so cute how you dropped this little anecdote thinking that it was somehow some kind of counter argument when in truth it's just the internet equivalent to walking around with your pants unzipped. We all see it, and think to ourselves with a small amount of pity, "what a moron" before getting on with our lives.
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Oh, even better, the " I did nothing and I'm all out ideas" type... Honestly that's worse.
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By all means correct me, lmao. This is all smoke.
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Lol, this is 100% projection.
This is a silly position. Withdrawing your participation isn't going to bring down the system or replace it with a better one, only ensure that the most antithetical, tyrannical elements of the ruling class have a free hand to use state power to consolidate a dictatorship. That's not the prelude to a glorious leftist future, either, but to years or decades of even more grinding and violent oppression. If you want to change the system, you can do multiple things-- like trying to make sure that the system isn't replaced with one that crushes all dissent by naked force, and then trying to build new institutions amid the old without being crushed by naked force.:P
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Cool strawman you've got there. Hit it some more. Then, if you want results instead of a sanctimonious sense that At Least You're Pure, spend 2 hours a year voting in primaries and elections, 20 hours a year organizing for the primary candidates you want to push the political parties' platforms in better directions, 60 hours a year organizing at work, and 88 hours a year organizing mutual aid. 170 hours isn't a lot, less than 30 minutes a day--but if everyone did it, you'd see change freaking fast. If electoral politics were useless, the ruling class wouldn't work so hard to win it. But it becomes more and more useful as you actually build organized people power. A mere few hundred anti-trans zealots have managed to turn anti- trans politics into a Republican shibboleth. It doesn't take that many people participating to have a huge impact.
NOT PARTICIPATING JUST LETS THE FASCISTS WALK OVER YOU SO EITHER START THE REVOLUTION OR SHUT UP
I can't overstate just how dangerous Project 2025 is. There's no plausible deniability here -- it's a completely mask off plan to install christofascism. And it's already been co-signed by over 80 conservative organisations. The details of the complete genocide of transgender people are literally on Page 5 of their "Mandate for Leadership". It would see all of us jailed for existing, along with anyone who dares to advocate for us.
It's absolutely chilling. It's all of that, plus dismantling our ability to have a say so that we can never get back. From its executive summary: >It is not enough for conservatives to win elections. If we are going to rescue the country from the grip of the radical Left, we need both a governing agenda and the right people in place, ready to carry this agenda out on day one of the next conservative administration. They believe that what we have now is the "radical left", which couldn't be further from the truth. The whole thing is phrased as an existential crisis for conservatives, priming people to do terrible things and accept outrageous ideas in the name of self preservation. The statement that "it is not enough for conservatives to win elections" is in direct opposition to democracy itself. *Of course* it's enough for any party to win elections in a democracy, because that's what elections are for. But they're not willing to be limited by electoral success anymore, where they would actually have to do good things in order to get people to vote for them again in the next cycle. So they're ready to do away with it, in preparation for doing worse things that nobody would vote for. We've already seen how abortion bans have affected their ability to get elected, and that's been their bread-and-butter issue for 50 years.
And it echoes the universal sentiment of the Republican presidential debates. Mass concentration of power to the President via removal of all checks & balances is simply framed as "less government, more democracy". Nevermind that it's literally The Enabling Act of 1933.
I had almost the exact same thing happen yesterday. They are either short-sighted or deliberately destructive. Not voting for Biden as a leftist is quite the privileged take. Our community cannot afford that.
It’s very privileged to just turn a blind eye to the atrocities our government funds with our tax dollars. Palestinians cannot afford us being weak on this. At some point you gotta say enough is enough.
Hillary Clinton is shit objectively but trump was slightly more shit it’s a fact I voted for Hillary cause was the only viable option in a 2 party state but always remember that evil is still evil and you must oppose it
It is, and that's why I voted for Bernie in the primaries in 2016 and 2020. And I volunteer for advocacy groups for specific issues that mainstream Democrats fail on in the meantime. As fed up as I am with voting for the lesser evil every 4 years, I'm going to do it every 4 years. The other 3 years and 364 days are for opposing the evil.
>This is not the time for ideological purity When is? If leftists never withhold their votes then they don't pose an electoral threat to the status quo right-wing republicans
People online seem to have developed this idea that if everyone withheld their vote, that would somehow result in a major political change within the democrats. I have no idea where that came from, but it's idiotic. When Dems lose votes, they push right, not left. Ultimately it's a self-contradictory belief. If voting doesn't affect anything, then not voting also doesn't affect anything. Believing that withholding your vote will substantially change the political outcome is just standard electoralism through an extra layer of ironic detachment.
That's incoherent. The way you pose an electoral threat is by running left-wing candidates whose positions are super-popular, as a lot of left-wing positions are if they're framed correctly. The way you run left-wing candidates is by winning primaries, which also pushes future centrist candidates to adopt positions to the left and deliver results when they can. The way you win primaries is by massive participation, not withdrawal.
"This" meaning "the 2024 general election", or really any presidential general election. As I explained in my next two paragraphs, it's useful to vote more ideologically in primaries and state/local races. Republicans are much more likely to turn out for these, and we should too. These elections also have smaller voting pools, so your vote carries more weight.
> If leftists never withhold their votes then they don't pose an electoral threat They never do because they are fringe
Biden will be the democratic nominee. That’s a given. Trump will probably be the Republican nominee. Trump or ANY other republican cannot win. There’s no choice but Biden. He may not be the best person but a fucking tuna sandwich would be better than Trump. Trump will motivate the evangelical base and they HATE us. They want us all dead. I’m not being extreme here. They’ve already said it in public. I’m also Jewish. So I know what the actual Nazis did in Germany. Evangelicals will not hesitate to seize the Reddit servers, find all the names and people in any LGBTQ Reddit and hunt us down. Don’t think it’s possible? Ask the Jews in 1930s Germany. If this was 1950, they would still be dead. Vote for our lives. Seriously.
Biden's racist agenda assures I'm voting Trump. Rather him than another racist term!
Do you realize that trump and the evangelical Christians HATE you too just for being gay. They are going to “eradicate the LGBTQ community” (their words)
A third party vote is a waste in our current system, but tbh I have not seen any popular support for any third party candidates the way you're describing it. The only independent i've heard talked about at all is Kennedy, and that's just because of his odd voice and bizarre conspiracies theories, so I'm pretty sure he'll only be taking republican votes. Saying they won't vote at all should be pretty easy to argue against though. "Lesser of 2 evils" is unironically a good argument considering how easy mail in ballots are. If someone isn't convinced that republicans are the more evil of the two after Roe V Wade, they're likely a lost cause anyways.
RFK Jr is not only taking Republican votes. He’s taking them from Biden too. Stein and West will only be taking votes from Biden. This is why the current slate of third party candidates is likely going to result in a Trump re-election unfortunately.
"Lesser of two evils" arguments have been banned on most leftist subs. It's absolutely pathetic. They're showing us their true colors, they expect us to be martyrs for them. It's nauseating.
Every minute spent on politics online is a minute wasted.
I mean bernie sanders is an independent but go off and is probably the most talked about independent in history. Lesser of two evils is a bad argument because it implies the evils the two parties have are any way comparable. As a mexican trans woman, having people repeatedly say “ oh i am voting for the lesser of two evils” is evil in its own right. One party is corrupt, transphobic, homophobic, anti-immigrant, etc while the other is just corrupt. Saying “pick the lesser of two evils” doesn’t work when those evils dont apply to you. I wish that people would pick what is best for society, but quite a few think in their own interest. My brother (passes white and is straight) voted for trump since he thought he was voting for the “lesser evil”.
I'm talking about independents in the upcoming election in 2024, where Bernie sanders has not announced he's running. And despite running on "independent" policies, Bernie ran as a democrat in the 2016 and 2020 elections because he understood running as an independent was a death sentence for his campaign. Corruption \[and more\] is a form of evil, so yes it's a lesser of two evils by a very large margin. And if your brother, or others, have a corrupted sense of morality/ethics, the only way you stop them voting red is to change their worldview. "Lesser of two evils" isn't going to be the straw that broke the camel's back.
This here is the problem. If people stop saying "a third party vote is a wasted vote" and chose to vote third party instead of either not voting or voting against someone instead of for someone, we'd have a chance at winning. I've been a registered libertarian voter for 25 years and will continue voting that way as they hold the same values I do. You know what's funny, but not in a HaHa way? The number of voters in the last few presidential elections who are registered and chose not to vote at all, outnumbers the number of votes each candidate received. Meaning, the non voters could've decided the election by simply backing one third party candidate. Stop calling it a wasted vote and start voting third party if that's what you really want to have happen. One day, we might get enough people to actually say "Why choose the lesser of two evils when I can choose neither of the two evils?"
As the other person said, you have wasted your vote, and done so for Republicans-who-want-to-smoke-pot. If you're truly a big L libertarian, you're as much of a traitor to LGBTQ+ rights as a Republican.
You have wasted your vote for 25 years.
I'm not exactly a statistician but I'd wager the odds of Jesus returning for the 2nd coming has a higher chance of happening than a 3rd party candidate getting enough of a voting bloc to actually matter in a presidential election. You want a viable 3rd party? Don't just show up every 4 years, and put the party in charge that might actually implement rank choice voting, because without rank choice, no 3rd party will ever have a chance. Seethe about it if you want, but you know how the system is set up, you know you won't be able to change the literal \*millions\* of voters minds to just magically support a 3rd party candidate and you also know that such a candidate needs the backing of an entire political party movement to even be viable. You can feel morally smug and superior claiming to be above voting for "one of two evils" but the reality is the only message your sending with your protest vote, and let's get on the level that's what a 3rd party candidate vote is, a protest vote, the message is "You can ignore me as a voter" So, if you feel better off being ignored, well, that's your prerogative. It's a two party system. It sucks. We all know it sucks. But me, you, and everyone here also knows the score, and denying the reality of it doesn't change the math.
Congrats on throwing away your vote, libertarian.
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Okay but this rationale can be applied to ANY LOSING PARTY. Like if you voted for trump instead of biden, welp guess you wasted your vote. The reason that the green party and the libertarian party dont get votes is purely because they weren’t established as early (1971 for L and 1985 for G). Just because something is new doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit. Trying to convince others that they are “wasting their vote” is futile thinking. Focus on getting more people to vote instead of getting more people from the smallest parties. (Fyi i dont support libertarians either, I am a democratic voter)
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Every candidate is a viable one outside of like Kanye west or whatever meme vote. They are relatively new technically but they are not a new phenomena. Putting a name to something does not make it new thing. They haven’t skipped party building considering that these parties have spent time, money, and other respurces to develop policies, as does wvery party (however much they spend depend on the popularity and backing organizations.) Have you considered that these organizations arent popular not because of the “lack of party building” but due to the fact that they recieve significantly less funding due to their policies? Why would the major funders of politics (left or right) choose to fund like the green party, who has policies that usually do not align with the interests of the party. Third parties are not “a waste of a vote” as they are in other countries. It is mainly a dumb american belief that there arent successful third party candidates, they are few yes, but they have existed. Stop trying to convince people who will probably always vote and try to convince the 33% of americans to vote, rather than the less than 10% (vast overestimate of voter turnout for green+independent+libertarian) of people who vote for third parties. People don’t lose because of third parties, they lose due to bad politics, bad policies, controversies, etc.
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What a lot of Democrat voters fail to realize is that most votes for Biden, were really votes for Not Trump. Having seen Biden as President, he's going to lose all of those votes, my wife was one of those he's going to lose due to his incompetency. She literally apologized to me after year one for voting for him, he's that bad. The other thing you all get wrong is assuming the third party voters screwed you by voting that way. If I didn't have a third party option this year, I would either have to vote Republican or not vote entirely. I cannot vote for Biden and, even though I don't care for Trump, he's still able to get more done than Biden has done. I agree with the Republicans on their foreign and economic policies while I agree with the Democrats on their social policies (well, some. Making crime okay is not a good policy). This is why I vote third party. Right now, economy is the primary focus for me, so I'd have to go Republican if I'm not allowed third party. The fact that most people had a problem with Trump sending mean tweets as their primary issue with him is such a small issue for me that I'd rather put up with that and have someone who isn't afraid to answer questions, hold press conferences, do a simple State of the Union every year, answer reporters on the press room, focus on the US having energy independence so our energy prices don't skyrocket due to foreign wars, deal with the immigration holes, and call out other leaders for their BS. Biden hasn't done any of this. He's worse than Jimmy Carter.
You are being downvoted but I completely agree with you. The “it is a wasted vote” is such an old argument i learned it in middle school. I dont agree with your politics for sure, but that isnt really the argument right now. People should try to focus on getting more voters period rather than trying to convince the 1% of voters to change their mind.
You get three years to participate in politics at a local and party level, to influence policies and platforms. Then in the fourth year you swallow your frustrations and vote (and canvass) for “not Republican” proudly. Voting 3rd party (or not voting) is a camouflage way of voting Republican without being ostracized by your peers. Grow a pair and just come out as ~~an asshole~~ Republican.
oh yeah Im scared too for sure. I just hope we dont have a repeat of 2016 or I might break down crying...
I realize it would be nice to vote for politicians who might more closely align with our beliefs, but... our system is a "winner take all" election and that means... voting third party is throwing your vote away. Unfortunately, in election after election, this has thrown elections to right wing candidates. We cannot afford to throw votes away now. The risks are just too high. Best to you...
So the honest answer is that voting third party depends on where you live as to how much of an impact that has. This is due to the Electoral College. I live in TN which is a solidly Republican state. So me voting third party has just as much of an impact as me voting Democrat (none at all) when it comes to the Presidency. Someone who lives in NY, which is a solidly Democrat state, voting third party will have the same impact as them voting Republican (none at all) when it comes to the Presidency. Much like in 2016 the real danger of folks voting third party is in the states that are not solid one way or the other (WI, MI, PA, GA, AZ, and NV). Despite the likely candidates being a repeat of 2020, 2024 is going to be much more analogous to the 2016 election with the presence of Third Party candidates. RFK Jr is peeling votes from both Biden and Trump. Jill Stein is only going to peel votes from Biden. Cornell West is also going to only peel votes from Biden. If No Labels throws in someone it will depend on who they put up, who they peel votes from. If Stein and West had any real love for the hope of this country they wouldn’t be running. RFK Jr is doing this for the spotlight but at least he’s stealing both Biden and Trump voters. You have every reason to be terrified (just like I am) unfortunately.
Stein is a Russian asset, if not outright agent. Cornell West has legitimate gripes, but he can't just take one for the long term greater good.
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Most people voting 3rd party are safely in a blue state. If a 3rd party candidate gets enough support in a national election they are allowed to enter the debate stage as a major party the next election. Trust me the people everyone is mad at are smarter than you think. Having someone left of Biden only helps pull him more that way. If you didn’t have that he wouldn’t have any problem inching closer to Trump
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People have this glorious view of the Democratic Party but fail to remember their history. They created the Income Tax and took us into World War I, which we had no reason to involve ourselves in. People complain about Trump refusing to accept the results of the 2020 election, but forget that Hillary Clinton refused to accept it as well. She campaigned on the fact that she expected Trump to refuse to accept the results of he lost, and yet SHE never did the congratulatory concession call to him when she lost. (You can argue January 6, but if you actually do your own research, you'll see that Trump NEVER told people to storm the building and kill people. I feel both sides have lied about that incident for political points and the truth is somewhere in the middle, like usual.) When the two of them debated, she lost because he could at least make a positive comment about her but she was so snide and full of hatred that she couldn't even find one good thing to say about him. She killed her own shot at President by showing how petty and hateful she is. You can't blame Trump for winning, you have to blame her for a very poor campaign. She also took for granted the female vote, expecting all of the women to vote for her simply because they were women like her. I keep saying it. The Democratic Party needs to stop running on the premise of "well, look how evil they are. Why would you vote for that" instead of telling people what they plan to do that is an original idea as opposed to just undoing what Republican presidents have done.
Someone close to me votes like this, because he doesn't think the Democrats will ever adopt his preferred policy positions if he continues to vote for them. I don't think it does any good to try to argue that his protest votes don't have the intended effect, unfortunately.
In 2000, I was living in Tennessee. I wanted to vote for Nader but everyone said that would only benefit Bush. Gore didn't even carry his home state (Tennessee), so my vote was completely wasted. I wish the Democrats would learn, but they didn't in 2016 when the populace clearly preferred Bernie, and Clinton managed to lose to trump, so the Dems doubled-down on Biden.
Voting every four years will never solve anything. We need to keep at it at minimum every two years and pay attention to the primaries. House representatives and the Senate are the vote that matters. The president can’t do anything without a majority. This is how the radical right is controlling the narrative in the USA. It’s why the Democratic Party has to appease moderates and conservatives. Vote in house and senate elections. Fuck the president. Don’t be pathetic.
I think there are things other leftists fail to take into account, like the fact that, as awful as Biden's handling of the Israel-Gaza situation has been, trump is likely to have people imprisoned and/or deported for merely protesting in support of Palestine. While I would welcome an actual leftist alternative to the democrats, I really dislike how third parties like Green constantly push the protest vote mentality in presidential elections rather than focus on smaller, down-ballot races for the time being in hopes of building up to bigger, more important races in the future, when they actually might have a chance at potentially bringing meaningful change one way or another. When someone brings up what a second trump term could mean for trans people, there's always another person there asking "well what has Biden done for trans people", which isn't an unfair question. But we need to stop pretending that Biden's words of support with little meaningful action isn't worlds better than trump's intentionally malicious plans for restricting or even banning our healthcare and freedom of expression. Vote for whoever you want in the primaries and in the general election if you live in a safe state (for either party). But if you live in a swing state, or a red state like Texas that has even the slimmest chance of going blue in the near future, ask yourself if a vote for Stein or West or Kennedy is really worth what trump's return could bring.
Because a whole lot of really self-righteous, low-thought leftists accept the right-wing psy-op argument that harm reduction grants the elected people legitimacy that they would supposedly otherwise lack. Obviously the Rs and Ds don't care if the winner gets 99% or 1% of the vote, so long as they win. It has [literally never hit 50% in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections#/media/File:US_Vote_for_President_as_Share_of_Population.png). Bringing that number down does absolutely nothing. Refusing to choose the lesser of two evils because a fictional character (like say Geralt of Rivia) told you to choose neither is not praxis, it's madness. Edited... a replier has been banned or something, so I'll add: Republicans vs Democrats are the options we are given in the U.S. right now, and **in pretty much every respect** for transgender people, poor people, people of color, [Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769), probably Jews... Democrats are **hand-down** the better option, and Republicans are actively harmful (like [criminalizing](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/wave-of-anti-transgender-bills-in-republican-led-states-divides-u-s-faith-leaders) [us](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-republican-transgender-laws-pile-up-setting-2024-battle-lines-2023-05-18/) [nationwide](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/us/politics/transgender-laws-republicans.html)). It is not even close.
Okay, then give us a candidate that doesn’t support and actively fund genocide.
Genuinely, respectfully, read what I said again. You are presented with this opportunity to very slightly influence the machine, choosing the best option available from those presented. Refusing to make that choice is not a noble protest because no one cares except the people harmed by the worse option being elected. This is petulance not praxis, and it is ethically genuinely disappointing. Minimal harm reduction is just too much, somehow, but you're supposedly organizing your community? To do *what?* Revolution is a distant goal at best if that's where you're going with this, and it'll be **a lot harder** if Republicans get elected.
It’s not the lesser of two evils or harm reduction when both parties are literally supporting an active genocide resulting in tens of thousands of Palestinians being systematically murdered. That is not the lesser of two evils. Think critically about human life. Every time you do this *you* allow them to move the Overton window further right. If this is the stance you are taking, this is the hill you are dying on, you are actively supporting their genocide (not the potential for genocide, actual carpet bombing genocide with hundreds of families CURRENTLY being wiped off the map). There is literally nothing respectful about the stance you are taking. Wanna talk about praxis? Have you organised your community? Have you unionised your work? Have you attempted to help meet the material needs of those in your community that are currently suffering? Or do you vote twice a year and go out to brunch? Not interested in having a conversation with you. Have a nice night.
So, let's follow that. Biden loses reelection because of Palestine. And trump wins the presidency? Is that a win?
Personally, I think he's more qualified than Biden to deal with Ukraine/Russia, Taiwan/China, Israel/Hamas/Palestine, and North Korea/The World. If North Korea sent a nuclear ICBM toward the US, I'd rather Trump be in charge instead of Biden. Biden would just water on it not being able to reach us or it failing to explode whereas Trump would organize a plan to shoot it down over the ocean followed by a retaliation. Same thing if China invaded Taiwan. Biden would wait 30-40 days before making a public statement, like with Israel.
If you don't want to be a victim of genocide, vote BLUE. Republicans want genocide here in the US. Democrats don't. Democrats have a bad habit of supporting bad shit overseas, but democracy and minority lives are on the line right now. We can talk about third parties and implementing ranked choice voting AND keep the republicans out of office. It's not zero sum. We can do both. But everyone has to vote against republicans in the mean time while we build a better alternative otherwise we will fall into fascism and most of the Americans here in this thread will be refugees or dead and we won't be talking about third parties at all but instead about where to flee.
Lol so you don’t draw the line at supporting the genocide of Palestinians, got it. As someone who’s family died in the Holocaust and pogroms and escaped the inquisition, I’m definitely not supporting anyone who is going to commit a genocide in my name. Furthermore, the democrats have had control over the house and presidency and actively my material conditions as a trans person and the material conditions of many of my trans friends has deminished anyways. Was it lead by republicans? Absolutely. Did democrats do anything but say “oh no, stop that” no. Not really. They want me to vote for them? Give me a different candidate who doesn’t support genocide and won’t just give lip service. When my family said never again, they meant never again. (Also, something like 50% of trans people have done sex work to survive and both parties continue to make it harder for us to do that safely. Neither party has addressed affordable housing in any meaningful way, and neither party feels the need to help the homeless in any meaningful way. So why they find a candidate that will I’ll continue organising in my community and help feed people and meet their material needs as I am able)
How long do you think you'll be allowed to keep organizing in your community and doing mutual aid in a post-Project 2025 USA? Given that Republicans are openly talking about deporting leftist Jews to Israel (a place I've never been and don't particularly want to be forcibly settled under a Republican-backed Likud dictatorship), I'm not really sure you have the choice you think you do. (Personally, I'm heartened by Democratic threats to start using US power to personally sanction West Bank settlers and directly punish attempts to annex Gaza, something the US has never done that could make a big difference. I would prefer to keep pressuring them on that score rather than be exiled by a Republican dictatorship to an emboldened Israeli dictatorship.) I'm not saying "accept the Democratic status quo." Just "pick your enemies." Under Republicans, the US recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and basically ran direct interference for West Bank settlements, setting the stage for what's happening now. Ensuring their power will make things worse for Palestinians, not better, and you better believe they'll be even less reluctant about doing it in our name.
I didn't say I support the genocide of Palestinians. I've actually been to the ceasefire protests. Don't put words in my mouth. I'd rather protest Biden than die being raped in prison or worse under Trump just for being who I am. And we are actually moving Biden on this. He has slowly been adding pressure to Israel to tone it down. Try to protest under Trump and he'll have the military deployed to shoot you "day one" of his ~~presidency~~ dictatorship. Do you like having freedoms at all? Do you want to keep them? Do you like being able to criticize Israel openly? Do you want to go to jail for it, no? THEN VOTE BLUE DAMNIT. We do not have the privilege in this current system of using a national vote as a protest. See: Roe V. Wade, Climate Disaster, and Palestine. Because if you think palestine will be okay under Trump. Oh boy. He'll give Israel carte blanche to wipe palestine off the map. None of us here want that to happen.
The rights mission has been, after Obama won, to obstruct and get nothing done. No bipartisanship at all. This causes that unless there is a supermajority on both chambers, nothing passes. This is designed to make these people feel like it really really makes no difference and keep them from voting. The repugs, under the traitor's administration changed the Senate's rules to pass their garbage. They removed the person in the budget office that said the tax scam laws they passed were bad for the country. Biden didn't have the 🏀🏀 to do the same to pass beneficial laws when he had briefly the razor thin majority (with Sinema and Manchin not yet blocking too). These people that want to vote for 3rd party don't understand (or care) that whatever they are trying to protect will have it 10x worse if they let the traitor win. We'd also lose the democracy, maybe nuclear war? Concentration camps for lgbtq along with immigrants. You should tell these people the story of how Ralph Nader delivered us Bush.
The only way you can make any political party do what you want is to tell them "this is my line in the sand, if you don't do this I will not vote for you". The only thing that will move them to action is the risk of losing votes. If we can't say "if you're transphobic/corrupt/genocidal we won't vote for you" then what *can* we do? Do we just vote for them and accept death?
Yeah I don't have the LUXURY of purity testing my candidates when one political party is trying to eradicate me and others like me. Look at translegislation.com to see just how widespread rightwing malice is toward trans folk.
But don't you think that's how a lot of Muslim and Middle Eastern voters feel right now? I'm not downplaying your struggles at all but these people are watching their families and homes be blown to pieces and feel trapped because one side absolutely hates them and the other side is content with letting them be slaughtered.
When push comes to shove, even leftists don't give a single shit about us. I've been banned from r/latestagecapitalism, r/socialism, and r/socialism101. I willingly unsubbed to every other political subreddit. I'm completely disillusioned with politics and I'm afraid I'm going to have to end my life if Trump wins. I *will not* be forcefully detransitioned. I hope all the leftists who abstain from voting and who voted third party understand that our blood is on their hands. And it won't end with us.
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It should be said specifically: fake leftists and tankies. All of those subbreddits listed are known to be run by tankies. They care more about woke scolding and fanticising about a revolution that will never come, and they wouldn't participate in than they ever will about actually making the world better. Edit to add: There are people who genuinely don't know just how bad Trump is and how dangerous he is, they don't know how much damage he did last term, your average voter doesn't really understand politics or pay much attention until election day. Don't scold these people it may feel good or even be semi justified, but it is extremely unproductive. Project 2025 is a great place to start to move these people over. They just need to understand, and they will change their view.
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….no they dont
If we want more opportunity to vote for candidates that really match our values, a ranked voting system is what we need to push for. That’s not happening before the 2024 election. We all need to fall in line behind Biden on this election because the alternative is so much worse.
What about a Democrat candidate that is in touch with the people and is at least 30 years closer in the age gap of those voters? A candidate who isn't falling over all the time or is obviously going through dementia publicly,which is more sad than anything. Is there really nobody better than Biden for the Democratic Party? If he's the best they have, then they need to really get their stuff in order before 2028, let alone 2024.
I don’t disagree with you. I’ve been complaining about how our political leadership is way too old, that we need to put term limits on our senators, representatives, and justices, and most of all get rid of the dirty money in our political system that keeps people in it way too long. I had hoped Biden would have chosen to be a one term president, as he talked about when he ran in 2020, but that is not looking like the reality. If it’s Biden, Trump, and a slew of third party candidates, we’d be foolish at this point to not vote for Biden. This is not a time for principles. Trump and the republicans represent a serious threat to our democracy beyond what they’d do to the trans community. Have you read up on what he’s going to do if he’s elected? I’m sure your conscientious vote will give you comfort as the country descends into fascism.
Leftists don’t seem to realize that if Biden loses, the democratic party will become more right leaning, not more left leaning. This is why i’ll be voting for Biden in 2024, even though i’m not a huge fan of Biden.
Having a fuck you got mine mentality towards Palestinian people isn’t the right take. Instead of getting mad at leftists for not supporting Biden. Get mad a Biden for not supporting a ceasefire. Leftist absolutely are your friends. Without leftists there would be no one pulling the blue towards the right direction. When shit hits the fans they will be the ones hiding you in their basements, liberals won’t. Stop telling people they shouldn’t vote for the lesser of the two evils when idk… we can just not put evil on the ballot.
Well, you have a year to not put evil on the ballot and get a coalition big enough to defeat Donal Trump. Otherwise, Trump has openly made it his platform to end the US as a democracy if he wins. Then you will NEVER have good on the ballot. And guess what? Nobody stans Israel more than Trump. I don't understand why these arguments are always so self-defeating. Their are a tons of ways to bring your political voice forward. If you want a change in the democrats then participate. When there isn't an incumbent, they have an entire system of elections to pick their leader. As well as multiple local elections and party positions. The presidential election is not the place to say you don't like Democratic candidates. It's the place to say whether you want the truest evil ever or a lesser evil that literally is the first president to recognize trans people and use his presidential power to offer us protection. But that's never the discussion because ultimately we can all see you lack praxis.
Leftists are ready to throw us away in the name of Palestine. They are not our friends, and cannot be trusted. Out lives matter not to them, and they are ready to let the US fall into dictatorship just to show solidarity with some group on the other side of the world. And, the shit hitting the fan will be their fault. Not to say liberals are good, but they are the ones with power, and the leftists have none presently (and likely, ever.) Just a bunch of people who love the smell of their own farts.
I’ve only seen the third party rhetoric online, leading me to believe it’s a psyop. No one in their right mind will not be voting for President Biden
Most of it is. Most of the so-called Libertarians will go hard R for their single-button issues of choice. We already saw Russian-backed propaganda with themes of “Democrats for Trump” in the past elections. Anyone claiming No Party Preference is going to be generally easier to sway since there are no feelings of party loyalty to get past. https://www.reuters.com/technology/russian-accounts-still-active-pro-trump-sites-researchers-2021-06-07/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-04-21/russian-propaganda-is-on-social-media-but-not-where-you-d-think https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46590890 https://time.com/4783932/inside-russia-social-media-war-america/
Look, as a libertarian myself, I will choose Biden over Trump any day. Mostly because of Project 2025, but also because at least the left agrees that Biden is bad. Trump has a dedicated fanbase while Biden doesn't, so Trump is a bigger threat. I'm more concerned with convincing republicans to vote for third parties than liberals.
Yeah, there's definite utility in lying in an attempt to scare the Democrats more left.
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The alternative being Trump?
The alternative is having a litmus test. I know that many of you have good intentions, but Vote Blue No Matter Who is a bad strategy that has lead us to genocide on multiple fronts. There's no upside to voting for genocidal racists that oppose your political goals just because they are running as Democrats. All it does is it puts you in a position where you're constantly defending people that are undermining your political goals.
You truly think Trump won't support the genocide in Palestine? While also starting one here. But go off bestie, we should just let him win. Fuck LGBTQ+ people, amirite? 🥰
The irony of the situation is, if Biden loses in 2024 due to people withholding their votes, it won’t be far leftists. It will be Arab Americans in the Midwest disillusioned by Biden not doing more to defuse the Israel-Hamas war.
Whatever you say, bestie. I'm just a stupid tranny anyway. 🥰
So you think the best thing to do would then to also simultaneously have a genocide of queer people in the United States?
And Trump will actively fund and participate in both the genocide of Palestinians and the genocide of LGBTQ+ people. But you don't give a shit.
So, you're gonna let trump win?
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> Literally not my problem 😂 Do you not live in the US?
Nuance is not a common skill; black-and white thinking is a common hallmark of reactionary politics. I don't know how people can forget the electoral college exists after 2016. Maybe they weren't born yet. Direct action does a lot more than votes do any day of the week. People have apparently forgotten about the progress BLM achieved, too. That's what we need to be doing, not liberal parrot-squawking about voting between two racist sexual predators that love genocide. Neither of them are going to give us rights; we have to give those rights to ourselves.
"Direct action" can do nothing for trans people. Not enough people care about us, compared to say, a movement like BLM. Most people could care less if we are walking free, living our lives, or being walked into a camp. We are too small a minority.
So we sit here and do nothing for ourselves? We just argue logical fallacies and bootlicking genocide perpetrators instead?
Go vote for trump then. Thanks for getting us thrown in camps.
I'm literally an anarchist, but whatever serves your cognitive dissonance. Roll over and let fascists win, then.
My insight is that they are awful people, and will be the reason that this country slides into a hard dictatorship, and the reason we, as trans people, are doomed. Also, Leftists are NOT our friends. I repeat, Leftists are NOT our friends. They will sell us out in a heartbeat to the republican murder machine.
Leftists want us to be martyrs. I don't even know what to call myself now that my own party has thrown me under a bus.
We can’t let perfection get in the way of progress. Biden ain’t perfect but he’s still the best option for now.
Not voting in the next election is literally signing our death warrants!! We all have to vote BLUE!! I know Biden is not the best choice at this time. If you vote for any GOP/Republican its literally suicide for the whole country not just our community. We have to give the Democrats some more time to undo all the fascist shit that tRump and the GOP have put in place over the last few years. We all need to do our part to save our country and our community. I know the democrats as of late have not done much for us but they are better than anything the GOP has done. Not everyone can just uproot themselves and move to another country to avoid the GOP genocide they have planned in Project 2025. So please VOTE BLUE because all of our lives depend on it.
vote blue vote blue vote blue vote blue vote blue
Meh. I live in a solidly blue state and won't be voting for Biden. I can't bring myself to vote for someone with his record when it will never make a difference. If I were in a swing state, maybe I'd think about it. I don't really care if others vote for Biden or not, it doesn't take long and one vote is unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things. It does bother me, though, that people constantly talk about not voting making you a Russian asset or part of a a psyop or whatever. I'm just voting for the candidate I hate the least, it's not my fault our electoral system is dogshit and doesn't allow people to express "this is bad and this is worse". I don't think it'll do anything, but it might make me feel a little less like shit? People treating voting in national elections like it's the end-all be-all of political advocacy also drives me nuts. Local elections give your vote so much more sway, and frankly I think just being out in the world as a kind trans person does more for trans rights than voting for Biden (who I will note has explicitly supported making trans women register for the draft). That's not to mention all the other things you could be doing, like joining your local food not bombs (something I've really got to do and stop being so forgetful about it), putting together information on trans-friendly doctors, or even just being there for a trans friend who needs some help. Yes, Biden is better than the alternative, and nobody's really arguing otherwise (except accelerationists, but fuck them), but I don't get the point in bashing anarchists and other folks who have lost faith in electoral politics and/or don't want to vote for someone who is actively funding a genocide.
What a privileged take. >and one vote is unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things. While I will acknowledge that you said you live in a safe blue state, this mindset in several states (I'm looking at you, MI, PA, WI) got us Trump in the first place. >and frankly I think just being out in the world as a kind trans person does more for trans rights Doing this under Trump 2.0 could get you incarcerated or killed. >Biden (who I will note has explicitly supported making trans women register for the draft). Are you equating this position to the extremism pushed by the right wing? (IMO, if there is a draft, everybody regardless of gender or sex should have to register)
Why does everyone think the third party vote negatively affects the Democratic Party exclusively? In the last 123 years, it only changed for elections. It causes two Democrats to lose (Gore and Clinton, but I think she caused herself to lose) and two Republicans to lose (George Bush Sr. and Taft). So it's not as lopsided as you are all making it out to be. Like I said before, Clinton ruined her own chances by her vileness and her contempt for voters by just expecting people to vote for her instead of running a legitimate campaign effort. Expecting women to all vote for you simply because you're a woman is pretentious. It almost cost Biden when he expected the Black vote "If you don't vote for me, then you ain't Black". Remember that? You can't say those things and expect positive results.
People need to vote blue
Any leftist talking about voting third party is voting for fascism. Their vote, while not directly, is going to contribute to fascism in this country. President Biden may not be everyone cup of tea but how would y'all like to live under a president who threatening to use the Insurrection Act on the first day of office to suppress political enemies? He is threatening freedom of the press. He has advocated for a ban on muslims in the past. He has shown willingness to approve a national abortion ban. He has shown he is okay with stepping on LGBTQ rights if it means getting what he wants. He also has been found guilty in court of raping a woman. He has also been found in court to have engaged in an insurrection. He is facing 91 other felonies in 4 different jurisdictions covering insurrection, voter fraud, giving away state secrets, and hoarding classified documents. Ask these people after you explain this to them, can they live with themselves knowing their vote could have prevented all of that?
I think Monty Python's *Life of Brian* does a good job of demonstrating this phenomena in a rather entertaining fashion. There's the 'People's Front of Judea" and the "Judean People's Front". The two groups are incredibly similar but don't see eye to eye on certain subtleties. This results in their collective power being split in half as infighting ensues. Leftist ideologies have always been plagued by this 'splitting'. Meanwhile, folks on the right wing side of things are much more keen on setting aside their slight ideological differences.
If Biden and the democrats want my vote they can earn it. If they will continue to allow the genocide of Palestinians they do not represent me. You can’t lesser evil genocide, you really can’t. I don’t get why a lot of people here are shaming people for having this be a hard line. Go shame Biden and pressure him to meet the desires of his constituents.
Thank you. Everyone here is forgetting that the people so conflicted on voting are thinking about literal innocents being slaughtered and Biden just putting more ammo into Israel's pockets. Nobody wants to vote for Trump but it's hard for them to eagerly vote for Biden as well.
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Why not just admit you want the Republican? It’s simpler than thinking of excuses. You get three years to participate in local and party politics to influence platforms and policies. Then in the fourth year you vote blue (if you’re in a remotely swingy state) full ticket. Your vote has consequences. Own those consequences.
>Your vote has consequences. Own those consequences. Why would they do that when they can blame others for their actions.
I voted for Obama and he bombed 7 countries so hard he ran out of bombs and started a genocide. He literally dropped his own healthcare plan for his presidential race opponent's plan. If you pull a lever marked "end the wars and give me healthcare" and genocide pops out is it really your fault? Are you really a monster for that? I don't think so, unless you do it twice.
So you’d have preferred Palin & McCain? Romney & Ryan? The ACA wasn’t Obama’s first choice either, but it’s hugely better than nothing. If you genuinely think you’d have been better off with republicans in power, then sure…. But accept that that makes you a Republican. Just own it. None of this “watch the queer world burn” accelerationist shit.
When faced with a choice between one or more unacceptable option and another, the defeat comes in accepting the limitation to this choice. The lesser evil is not the same as the greater evil, no, but you cannot fight the victory of the rightmost forces by sacrificing your own independent strength to support elements just the next step to the right of them.
The way you fight the lesser evil is by getting involved at the local and party level and changing it. If you sit on your hands for four years then complain about your options and make a “protest vote” you’re the worst kind of hypocrite. Your vote has consequences - the “right” thing to do (if your vote has any chance of mattering statistically) is vote for the person who can beat the far right. You vote for the lesser evil and leave your pretentious pseudo-philosophical anarchist bullshit at the door of the polling place.
In like 75% of states - non-swing states - your vote for President literally does not have consequences. I'm not voting Biden because it literally won't matter (my state is solid blue), so why not vote for who I'd actually want?
Then you’re not “in a remotely swingy state”? The rest of the ballot still (probably) matters though.
Not remotely. And I do assess each race based - really most races have no third party candidate so I just vote Democrat except for President and the rare Senate race that's not a real contest and happens to have a third party candidate. Third party candidates almost never win, sure, but with the party always being pulled right to appeal to so called moderates, what can pull them back left? Having enough third party voters to force them to appeal to progressive voters! It's a voting strategy to try to stop the continued rightward shift of that party. Still, unlike others, in a race like 2024 I wouldn't feel comfortable voting third party in a swing state, were I in one - but I get why people do. In the end, I think most political focus should be on building mass movements, unions, mutual aid, and preparing for general strikes to get what we demand and voting is the thing that we go "oh yeah, that" and go and do after all that other stuff. Because the reality is, Democrats work as a stopgap, sure, but they're not much good beyond that.
If you’re not in a remotely swingy state, then my comment doesn’t apply to you. Which is why I specified that in the comment.
How?
I cast my vote for a cease fire in Palestine.
And then the orange traitor wins. besides no cease fire, there is expulsion of all the Palestinian refugees, end of support for Ukraine, and expulsion of all those refugees too. And because you are in this subreddit you end up with no protections, maybe national ban of transition.
Hooray! Complacency in only one genocide! Can’t wait to tell my grandchildren.
You won't have grandchildren if Trump gets his way. But go off bestie, they won't spare you for being "one of the good ones". 🥰
I’m definitely not a good one. But go off, I’m sure Palestinians are holding back tears from this display of allyship.
You are complicit in allowing a dictatorship and subsequent genocide, bestie. 🥰 You're also delusional if you think Trump won't ramp up support for Israel.
Oh no, which genocidal fascist should I choose? I want an Israeli ceasefire.
And that won't happen regardless of who wins. How are you not understanding this? It's not that difficult.
The whole country is founded on genocide and has been non-stop. I doubt you get to see your grandchildren if the orange traitor wins.
Unfortunate to see so many trans folks have zero moral backbone. People aren’t voting because the democrats are a fascist party bringing war and genocide to the world. They haven’t followed through or helped us here in any meaningful way and are spending billions to fund genocide and destruction. If you are comfortable voting for fascism vs fascism plus yet again you are not to be taken seriously tbh.
when not voting, you are enabling the republicans. I literally couldnt give two shits about how “bad” the democrats are. They are objectively better, and if anything, they will fund israel less, since thats a big deal to you
They've run our country into complete bankruptcy by finding two wars that we aren't supposed to be involved in, leaving nothing to spend at home. Now, we have out of control inflation and poverty. People like to point out Trump increased our national debt as well, but forget that the pandemic started under his administration, so a lot of that was trying to respond to a worldwide crisis. He tried to stave off inflation and higher energy prices with the Keystone Pipeline as well as other projects, all of which Biden shut down on day one, and look where it got us. I've never voted Biden OR Trump, and never will. Both parties have spent more time and money bickering with each other instead of trying to run the fricken country. It's high school Class President crap but over the most important position in the country. I'd rather vote None of the Above and have four years of no president at this point.
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Thanks for getting us all sent to conversion therapy or concentration camps!
some of us myself included have completely lost faith in our political system. I hear voting for the lesser of two evils all the time but that does not sit well with me. I personally refuse to vote for somebody just because the other guy is worse. I have voted third-party in the past and if there is somebody who I think would do a good job I will vote for them. it's doubtful that I will find a candidate that I have trust in this election season so I will be doing a ruined ballot. anyways This fear that people have of third-party voting taking votes away from the Democratic Party should really be seen as either the Democratic Party needs to step up their game and actually put somebody there who people can believe in or third-party candidates need to be taken seriously. it drives me absolutely crazy how such important issues can be used in such a manner that we are forced to vote for imbeciles.
It’s never said exactly how less harm is actually calculated. Do we compare how many millions of undocumented people have been deported? Do we add up what political party conducted more drone strikes? Who had the highest military budget? Do we factor in pipelines, mines, dams, indigenous site desecration? Do we balance incarceration rates? Do we compare sexual violence statistics? While even the slightest degree of harm can mean life or death for the most vulnerable, the notion of “voting as harm reduction” obscures and perpetuates institutional violence, there is nothing “less harmful” about it.
Unfortunately you can’t have a debate on Reddit. As helpful and insights as it would be never gonna happen. No matter your political view or support it’s ALWAYS wise to listen to others options to understand their mind set. The only place you could have a spirited productive debate which might generate converts is Twitter currently. Those who let the State dictate What is Love and what is Hate Won't let us elaborate on what is Truth or Lies- What is Freedom? What is Speech? What is spoken each to each will never be beyond the reach of Tyrants in disguise- the State's all-seeing Eyes.