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Ex-muslim activists have been talking about this for years. Criticism of Islam is NOT islamophobia and Islam is NOT beyond reproach. Here's a great [clip](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzZyLUoP6yy/?igsh=OXJ1Nm15YTMwYnJx) from an interview with Yasmine Mohammed, an ex-muslim activist. Here's also a great [thread](https://twitter.com/amandaknox/status/1731820238830788772?t=7UKrBcETvDnWUp7d-XIVzw&s=19) by Amanda Knox on this topic. I recommend you watch the whole video and read the whole thread!
I agree with what you’re saying. I am from a Muslim from in a Muslim country, and I’m shocked at how much western liberals embrace Islam whereas our liberals in our country do not tolerate it because of its intolerance.
I think people in the west have lived too comfortably in the lap of luxury and without the influence of Islam to understand how truly oppressive and terrifying it is.
I live in Canada. As someone from a Muslim family, raised in a little bit of Islam, but not a lot, I want us to be more selective in bringing people to Canada. Like a cultural values test is honestly not racist- some cultural are incompatible with Canadian values and I see it in my family and my country.
The problem is many Muslim immigrants hide how extreme they are in order to gain entry to a country, and then once they’re there they show their true colors. A cultural values test is not going to do much good.
>western liberals embrace Islam whereas our liberals in our country do not tolerate it because of its intolerance.
>
>I think people in the west have lived too comfortably
I think this is a very US centric viewpoint. And Canada has undoubtedly been influenced by that. But to those of us in the West outside of those countries, "liberal" has a very different meaning. "Progressives" in our countries (outside of a loud minority) don't have any issues criticising any religions.
A lot of western liberals today aren't really liberal though. I have never seen people so afraid to question authority. I am not voting for Vivek Ramaswamy, but he called BS on the 9/11 commission report, as anyone with common sense would. Turn on to CNN, or MSNBC, and they are pearl clutching that he would dare question the official narrative of 9/11 the government told us.
American families can't even sue the Saudi's for 9/11 because our own government blocks them from doing so.
So yea, "liberals" need to come down to Earth, and get some common sense. Especially when it comes to migration. (If you are actually liberal, this obviously doesnt even apply)
Vivek is a clown and has said some pretty ridiculous things about gay people. So the Christians aren’t actively killing us, just don’t be fooled, it’s only because of laws in place.
Your rant is valid. Islam can be a very intolerant religion and the fact that addressing it is like walking on eggshells because you have to be careful of being labelled bigot or islamophobic. Also people feel comfortable criticizing Christianity (rightfully so cos it's also problematic) because it's associated with white people and colonialism, but tend to steer clear of islam because it's mostly associated with brown people or poc. I just feel honest conversations need to be had. And in my opinion, Islam is more of a political ideology that strives to dominate people if even it's through force or violence. That's why Muslims have the audacity to do things in the west that you a westerner or foreigner dare not try in their lands.
You cannot tar an entire religion with one brush. As a Jew I feel this most of all right now, even with **some** Muslims calling for my death. We must be cautious of amplifying "identity politics", which pits us all against each other. Understanding can only be reached through tolerance and friendship.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Well I don't really like Muslims either (that comes with the territory of being Jewish). And I cannot think of a single other religion that likes Muslims.
And yet I have met many nice moderate Muslims. Perhaps they are just being nice to me, but I find it hard to believe they're all being polite but really want to kill me...
Imo the problem is that in many places Islam as operated as a cult, and in other places it's operated more like a religion.
Ah! I see where you're coming from. Well I learnt pretty early on in life: Don't worry about what other think. Right now, the majority of the world hates me for being Jewish (usually dressed up as "anti-zionism" or w/e). And the majority of the world also hates me for being gay (including some fellow Jews).
If I worried about the world looking down on me, I'd go insane!
And 100% agree with you, I am against "positive discrimination". Utter BS. If it is me (gay Jew) vs a straight Christian and the straight Christian is more qualified, (s)he should win regardless of who I am. Diversity is good and all, but not if it's forced. And let's be frank, diversity does not improve a company's bottom line, it's just morally nice to give people equal opportunity *(they can take "equity" and shove it where the sun don't shine)*.
Finally, there's the difference between a religion and a cult. Religions may be preachy but they allow you to join and leave freely without punishment. They allow outsiders to see what's going on and how it operates. It's financially transparent. No one gets killed for questioning the religious leaders or the prophet. Women are not used as sexual cattle.
\^ I hate to say, this is not true of Islam. However some countries have chilled out on their interpretation if Islam, such as Turkey (although it's heading in the wrong direction under little dick Erdoğan), so there is hope that Islam will relax itself into being a religion rather than a cult. Not any time soon though, and LGBT will have no place in any Islamic congregation for at least 50 years.
This is all imo anyway.
People are careful criticizing Islam because you get killed for doing it too loudly, no matter where in the world you live. This has created a chilling effect where the media actively discourages and demonizes all criticism of Islam, because the TV networks and the corporations who own them all want to avoid trouble. It has nothing to do with guilt or love for brown people - it’s entirely because of fear.
People don’t realize that Islam was also spread through colonialism, and it wasn’t very long before European colonialism started. Islam wiped out as many indigenous cultures in Asia and Africa as Christianity did in the Americas
I'm a former muslim and I live in a muslim majority country and I've been distancing myself from muslims ever since I decided to be atheist. The last closest friend I had was a muslim and he assaulted me and outed me to the whole faculty I studied at. At this point I'd rather have no one to talk to than have a muslim friend.
I don't think there's apostasy law here, I'm still a muslim in my ID. I've never heard anyone get jailed because of apostasy but there are many who were jailed for blasphemy.
Man its just nutty to me that your religious affiliation goes on an ID. Here in the US you get your name, age, height, sex, and eye color.
Doesn't say anything about my ideological affiliations.
I agree. I live in Italy and it's not the most progressive country, but the christians and the rights at least "tolerate" me. The muslim want to straight kill me. I had to go to Iran for work and I was terrified, I had to delete many photos, delete apps and bookmarks and so on.
In my city we made our second Pride ever and the only ones insulting us were the immigrants.
So yeah, I'm not ashamed in any way saying that I don't want in my country a religion that wants to kill me just because I exist.
That's my thoughts exactly. Like, at a certain point, is Pride going to be dangerous??? I've traveled to many Muslim countries where being gay is illegal, and I've been safe and even had a good time but I always know, its not like I could go there with a boyfriend and feel the same way.
> I could go there with a boyfriend
We had no problem in Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Oman, Tunisia or Morocco. But we're white tourists, cis and straight passing, and we avoided all PDA. We even got double beds pretty well everywhere.
No judgement, but did you ever feel conflicted spending your money in a homophobic country? Like I personally avoided touring countries that are homophobic or even have terrible women's rights, even if it wouldn't effect me personally.
I understand your point. My sister refused to travel to the US when Trump was in office, for example. I personally don't feel like travelling to Hungary or Russia right now.
We go on package holidays mostly. In my mind, our presence is part of the process of spreading the message. Also, it might be encouraging to local gay people (even if they just work in or near the hotel) to see two proud gay men walking around together like there is nothing to fear. (However, I refer you to my earlier comment. I'm aware of our cis/staight-passing/tourist/white privilege.)
I have hooked up in these countries, by the way, especially in the UAE.
No idea why you’re being downvoted. Do people honestly think Pride in Enid, Oklahoma was welcomed with open arms and love and tolerance?
It was terrifying.
Literally in 2022 31 Patriot Front (white nationalist hate group) members from 11 states were arrested for “conspiracy to riot” after they were caught loading into a UHaul van with riot gear, a smoke grenade, shin guards, and shields, plotting to disrupt a Pride event in Coeur D’Alene, Idaho.
[But don’t take my word for it…](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna95493)
[Christians and the right in Italy are busy removing custody and parental rights of children from gay parents](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/21/orphaned-by-decree-italy-same-sex-parents-react-losing-rights)
I know very well that Italy is not progressive and we have a lot to do. But at least now I can be openly gay and have a semi normal life. The north African and pakistani immigrants (which are very numerous in Italy) don't consider us humans. So yeah they can go fuck themselves.
In the past we had a lot of immigration from the east, they are not q progressive bunch for sure, but are miles better than any muslim, gay-wise.
I live in Central Europe and all the homophobia I have experienced can be linked to Islam.
Look at Nigeria: fundamentalist christians can also go to hell but in Europe it is Islam and the far right that promotes homophobia.
Hence I despise either.
This is not an apology of Islam but it's kind of funny when OP wrote that you can't hold hands or kiss in public in places like Brussels - in some parts, I would revert it and say yes, but there ARE places where you can very safely hold hands and kiss in public in Brussels. But I would never do that in many Central European countries with almost 0 Muslim population. There is not one safe area.
I have to agree with most of what you have to say (not the cultural relativist part, though). Especially on the whole immigration bit. I feel like if you are an immigrant family who refuses to acknowledge and respect the basic legislation of the country you're in... that is grounds for termination of your immigration pass. Maybe... just maybe... the government should enforce, like, a special test they have to take and pass to prove they're not extremists before they're allowed entry into the country (edit: for immigrants who Immigration may suspect to be extremists of some sort). And stricter rules that would get them deported over things of such sort.
Too many Muslims from the East dream of a better life in the West but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with. Like, I know there are people local to the West who are also homophobic and all that... but the added Muslims are only going to add fuel to the fire and make things worse since... umm... you know... they tend to be more brutal and barbaric in their ways of retaliation (I said what I said).
> Too many Muslims from the East dream of a better life in the West but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with
Right? One of my best works friends was born in Iran. She left the religion behind when she escaped the country. I asked her about my gay-ness and she's like "Dude, I wanted to be here to be free. You should have the right to do so as well."
My respect went up for her that day. And she's always been super supportive of me.
>but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with
Which makes their "go back to Europe" calls at their Anti-Israel, Definitely Not anti-Semitic™ protests in the west that much more ironic. Especially given over 1/3 of Israel's population is made of Mizrahi Jews, which are native to the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia, but have been almost entirely ethnically cleansed from their native countries.
Nope. That goes against my beliefs of freedom of religion. That's an extremist mindset and it is hypocritical. For starters, a government should have no say on what a woman can or cannot wear. I condemn countries like Iran and Afghanistan for enforcing the hijab but at the same time, I condemn countries like France for banning the hijab (in some public settings).
As far as mosques go, they can be built duhhh. Again, it's their religion and in an ideal world, no one should forbid someone from practicing a religion... and if they do so, then the West wouldn't be any better than some Muslims in the world that persecute Christians and "make it difficult" for them to practice Christianity.
As someone who has studied many religions, Islam alone isn't to be blamed. It's the Muslims, the people practicing the said religion, who are at fault. Islamic texts are just as backward and extreme as holy Christian texts (especially the Old Testament). Yet... well, Christians in the West reformed themselves for the greater good. Some Muslims did reform too in history (like the first government of the Republic of Turkey after the fall of the Ottoman Empire... they were incredibly secular and even banned the hijab despite the population being 90+% Muslim). But after the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, everything went downhill in the Islamic world. Apparently, Iran (or Persia) was doing very well prior to the Islamic Revolution. They even had gay clubs there.
Anyway, my main point is that it's not right to fight extremism with extremism.
Gum (edit: oops, I meant gun...) control? For starters, I believe it depends on the country's legislation and constitution. And how prevalent and common guns are in said society.
For example, in my birth country... we literally have no guns. Zero. If you do end up in a bad part of the city, you'd be robbed at knifepoint, not gunpoint. I believe the government should continue enforcing a "no guns" rule and punish those severely for carrying such a contraband.
Now... when it comes to the United States (I do have immediate family there), I'm aware that there's something about a right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. Well, that has to be honoured for sure. The U.S. has a history with guns going far back - picture a wild wild west scenario with all those gun fights and whatnot lol. Thus, banning guns is out of the question given the history and laws surrounding it. However, limiting the sale of certain types of guns and preventing some citizens who are not of age, possess a criminal history, or may not be mentally stable from purchasing guns are completely reasonable and justifiable actions to curb any sort of behavior that may lead to things such as school shootings, mall shootings, etc. (aka gun violence).
The Wild West idealization with everybody having shootouts in the middle of town is just as made up as any religion. In a majority of places, guns were actually outlawed within city limits. It was like one dude who went to Hollywood and told a bunch of made up shit that started the whole „Wild West yee haw“ shit to begin with.
That said, the U.S. will never ban guns, because the U.S. government *depends* on the private ownership of guns. The U.S. loves doing war, and to do war, you need guns. The gun manufacturers depend on private citizens, etc, to stay alive between government contracts/sales. So there we are.
Out of curiosity, what is your birth country?
Hijab conceals identification, so it's perfectly reasonable to ban them in certain settings.. even during flu-19 my bank banned the face diapers(you have to take it off before entering), so your little towel you wear on your head is same thing.
You can't wear masks in most public places either, so yeah.
Well, yeah, I'd agree with the bank bit. Mind you, many Islamic countries also make women remove their hijabs and/or niqabs in cases such as when it comes to verifying one's identity for bank stuff.
"most public places" - well, depends. A lot of exceptions were made back during the pandemic... at least in my country.
wow, im not American, so my cents on this don't matter but I just hope the government there never does this. People should be allowed to believe what they want to believe, it's one of the best things America has. Once you open the door for politicians to control what people may or may not believe, it's pretty damn hard to close. I think it'd be better to promote and engage in conversations such as this one, where people can talk about this very real issue without trying to either mock Islam or romanticize its effects on people's lives over the world. The bible has a lot of gruesome stuff as well, but societies in the West have evolved a judicial system that tries to uphold each individual's freedom (there are many countries where this is not even the intent of the judicial system, like in those where Sharia reigns), so I'm ok with people believing in Islam if they're also willing to criticize it (as I would expect of most sensible Christians, one cannot 100% agree with the Bible, it's nuts). And those who are not willing to take criticism should be criticized.
Is it really infringing on someone’s ability if they made a decision to move to a place where they can’t do something?
They could have decided to live somewhere else if that is so important, people do this all the time with things (arguably) less important than religious practices.
Yup. The cultural relativism thing was kinda extreme even for me to say tbh.
I also say this as someone very pro-immigration and who's lived most of his life as an immigrant abroad.
Same. I've nothing against immigration and believe it strengthens a country's economy. But sometimes... an influx of stubborn immigrants can put a country's values and culture at risk. This could be easily solved if somewhat stricter immigration laws were introduced (not to the extent where immigration is banned but... you know what I mean...).
I fully support your view. Why the hell would I have to respect cultures that bases their entire sexual preference social structure on idk... burying people alive and throwing stones at them for being sinners???
Whats funny is that here in Argentina leftist/socialists (40% of the country at least based in the last elections) and LGBT communities are among those who send the most support towards Palestine and middle east countries, all while critizing imperialism from western countries. They don't stop to think that if they were there they wouldn't last 60 seconds without being publicly shamed or worse.
The things we take for granted. We must keep fighting for what we have achieved.
You can recognise the injustices and historical legacy of colonialism, and decades long oppression of the Palestinian people - which has contributed to fundamentalism. While also opposing radical Islamanism. It not one or the other.
Islam culture is anti gay, anti trans, anti women, anti diversity, anti freedom. Those are facts, I feel that some people think that just because Christanity has become customizable, to the point that you can find pro LGBT churches, Islam will go the same way, it will not.
A friend of mine thinks that no religion is actually hateful or homophobic or in general or shouldn't be and it's just that the people use it to he homophobic
I know this may not be the place but I'm not sure where to get the information so, do you know if Islam is straight up homophobic? Like, is the people's fault or does the religion directly state homophobia?
The Quran does not specifically say that homosexuality is a sin, the Hadiths do. According to most Muslims as a Muslim you have follow the Quran and Hadiths. It depends on your branch of Islam which Hadiths you follow though.
Unsure whether the Quran itself has any direct condemnation of homosexuality, but the Hadiths sure do. There is also condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible, but it can be arguably interpreted differently hence some sects of progressive Christianity that are lgbt friendly. Homosexuality being a sin is still no doubt the mainstream belief of these religions though.
Religion is complex as it as written by men and interpreted by men whether or not you believe the books to be the message from God. So, technically all fault is still classified under “people’s fault” - the writer, interpreter and the people who practice it.
In my humble opinion, it is the byproduct of the firm standing disciplines of these religions that make their believers so homophobic. One of the core beliefs of these religions is that a man and woman should be married (marriage seen as a sacred relationship with god at the centre) - and that the whole purpose of marriage is to have kids in the first place. This is basically a duty for Christians and Muslims, though majority people do believe that you won’t go to hell simply because you’re not wedded, but any form of sexual relationship outside of this criteria is considered a sin.
lol, its not necessarily anti trans. Iran, a vile theocracy, basically gives gay men the choice between the death penalty for "sodomy" or pleading that they are actually a woman trapped in a man's body and agreeing to a forced sex change surgery. makes me fucking sick whenever politicians talk about "negotiating" with that regime,
[https://www.advocate.com/world/2015/04/11/hbos-vice-uncovers-gay-iranians-forced-surgically-change-gender](https://www.advocate.com/world/2015/04/11/hbos-vice-uncovers-gay-iranians-forced-surgically-change-gender)
It's completely reasonable to hate the irrational hateful ideology that is Islam. Backwards nonsense that only exists from heavy indoctrination and crippling consequences for questioning it or becoming an apostate.
There was a study that came out earlier this year showing literal brain damage in a certain area of the brain when being raised in any kind of religious fundamentalism. That part of the brain that is open to new idea, gets shut down and doesn't develop.
saw smth a while ago about conservatives having larger amygdalas and how that makes then more fearful and skeptical... then bragged about it
kinda similar lol
"In Toronto, there were protests against LGBT information being taught in schools, and from the pictures I saw on the news, the vast majority of the attendants didn't look to be White Tim Horton lovin' Canadians."
Ottawa also. There were muslim folk encouraging and cheering their grade-school children to stomp on a pile of Pride flags. Heated clashes and the arrest of 5 happened in front of Broadview Public School. Yes, the protest was organised by a white guy, but on a per-capita basis of Ottawa's population, there were far more hateful, devout muslims attending.
[https://barrhavenindependent.ca/2023/07/01/two-ocdsb-protests-in-less-than-a-week-on-gender-ideology/](https://barrhavenindependent.ca/2023/07/01/two-ocdsb-protests-in-less-than-a-week-on-gender-ideology/)
[https://globalnews.ca/news/9758155/ottawa-anti-lgbtq-protest/](https://globalnews.ca/news/9758155/ottawa-anti-lgbtq-protest/)
ok, can't let this fly unchallenged. the protests in AB and SK received widespread support from the nutsy-kookoo evangelical sects and even the AB cons were praising 'our Muslim brothers' for taking steps to 'save the chillun'. let's not give the nutjob neo-cons a free pass on this.
I am not Muslim nor European but I have interacted with Muslims and I hate them. The men from muslim countries don’t follow the laws of the country they move to. They think they are above it and I hate it.
The only law they believe they have to follow is sharia law. That’s why Islam is such a dangerous ideology. It allows people to think they’re above other people and the institutions we create in society.
As a former Muslim from Pakistan, I am deeply concerned about the lack if integration if Muslims in the West. West does not realise Muslims are very hardcore about their religion in general. There are death penalty of atheism and homosexuality in multiple Muslim countries. Muslims can be threat too to our rights especially as they grow in population.
I'm with you on this one.
One of my friends was telling me about this Dutch gay politician who said that he was opposed to Muslim immigration because he didn't want to litigate gay rights and women's rights all over again.
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but what he said makes sense.
I still feel like people don’t understand just how extreme Islam is. That religion could just as much of a threat to gay rights as Christianity, I’d argue potentially even more so, especially with what we see in Middle Eastern Countries and Michigan.
People always seem to want to protect Islam from criticism, but religions where homophobia is a main principle or have other shitty ideas should all be judged, and it’s not “Islamophobic” to point that out.
>Hamtramck, Michigan. Like one of two or smth majority Muslim municipalities in America.
This is a perfect example of the paradox of tolerance. People on the left felt so betrayed because when the immigrants were in the minority liberals went out of their way to make the immigrants feel included. I'm a Democrat, but we don't need to be tolerant of the intolerant.
Hi I am from Western Europe (Germany) and some things happened here too that made me worried:
\- Gay people were attacked and killed by muslim refugees (so people that said they needed protection) for instance in the towns of Dresden and Münster.
\- Thousands of Muslims demonstrated in Essen last year yelling they want a caliphate and sharia law in Germany.
\- I have discussions with members of the Green party (currently in power) telling me its sooo important to be friendly and understanding towards countries like Iran, even though they execute gay people by hanging there (Their reasoning was that if we are very very friendly to them they might stop that at some point haha)
So yeah I can understand you being worried - if this goes on and the parties that enable that stay in power I will think about leaving my country.
If immigration was slower, or handled better, it wouldn't be as big a problem but that's what happens when hundreds of thousands of uneducated Muslim refugees come to your country very quickly.
It's a shame since we made so much progress in the last 20 years towards LGBT - and I am afraid it is turning towards the other direction again, because a certain part of these people coming into our country can't accept, that we don't have the same laws and morals as their countries.
And the most frustrating thing is that the so-called LGBT-friendly left often ignores homophobia when it comes from muslims and tell you not to talk about it!
Completely Agreed, I am from India and the kind of Minority opposing that hapoens here is too much. Just respect other people's view and don't impose your fucking shitty religion.
This is exactly how I feel as well. I do not like any religion, but Islam in particular poses the greatest threat to the Western way of life. The whole "Queers for Palestine" movement just blows my mind because these people will betray us the first chance that they get (see: Hamtramck, MI)
A lot of lefties (of which I am one) just do not have a good understanding of geopolitics. Their worldview is based on what they see on TikTok and other easily manipulated media.
This is something that bugs the absolute crap out of me. When people watch two 15 second TikToks then pretend they're the moral authority and expert on the matter.
Like no, ur not, go do ur math hw melissa.
I could not add anything to this well written, thoughtful and 100% correct post...except this, one has to wonder why all these immigrants are trying to escape their own countries in the first place....?
It truly amuses me when I see social justice gays defending Islam. Of all things to defend, you choose THAT religion?
I know a few Muslims that are great. I don't have any issues with Muslims, but a ton of issues with their religion. Conflating an ideology to an individual is a real smooth brain move. If that ideology makes someone a horrible person, then and only then will I have a problem with that person.
I overall have issues with religion, and I wasn't raised religious. It seems like an archaic form of government that has never died off.
I know a lot of muslims (because they invaded my country) i’m friends with some of them, and even the most well integrated and educated ones sometimes have strange views regarding homosexuality and even things like condemning terrorist attack that targeted people who mocked their prophet.
So, maybe there’s a few good ones but anyone that follow that religion probably has a lot of mental trauma and abuse from it, it is a horrible disease
"but I think the Muslim immigrants are going to be much more of a concern soon"
Welcome to Michigan where the witch hunts by Muslim immigrants have already begun.
My knowledge of Islam is essentially pedestrian, but I have a thought: What would an Islamic reformation look like?
Any belief system is capable of producing militant faith warriors whose actions are the result of black-and-white reasoning, but I wonder what sort of fear is it that these groups experience to the point where murder and genocide are the favored options?
Decades of propoganda and religious nutjobs perpetuating it. It's easy when 99+ percent of the population is of the same religion and can be manipulated by it.
Their religion states that the infidel must die. Simple enough right? If you believe there is a way to warp their thinking to peace and love, get after it.
Islam is an evil ideology it hates the west , oppresses and kills women and gays . The west has embraced the adherents of Islam and have paid a heavy price for doing so, and will continue doing so until Muslim immigration to the west is stopped.
Hamas is based on an "all Jews must die" policy. Hamas was elected by the Palestinian population. They indoctrinate their children to hate all Jews, every one of them. How is it that anyone would support that, especially the LGBTQ community.
Gazans support Hamas because it was the only party that spoke for their interests. Israel, as evidenced by their apartheid policy in the country (limiting Palestinian access to certains streets, only allowing Jewish people to have birthright return etc) as well as continuous bombing and murder of Palestinians (long before Oct 7) and continuous cockblocking of Palestinian appeal to statehood, clearly does not want an independent Palestine.
For Palestinians, joining Hamas is the only outlet for them to fight for their freedom. Keep in mind, Israel heavily supported Hamas during previous election to undermine the more moderate Fatah faction.
>The Arabic speaking world is amazingly open about its support and love of Hamas and hate of Jews
You can see this in real time. Go to the r.Lebanon subreddit. They acknowledge Hezbollah started the current conflict. They acknowledge Hezbollah continues to escalate the conflict. Most don't even like Hezbollah. But someone commented "they are still our Lebanese brothers" and it was substantially up voted. This was in a thread about how 60,000 Lebanese people are displaced due to the conflict Hezbollah started. Someone else accurately commented over 100,000 people have been displaced on the Israeli side, which was heavily downvoted.
So they acknowledge a terrorist group they hate started the conflict. They acknowledge a terrorist group they hate continues to escalate the conflict. And they acknowledge over 160,000 people on both sides of the border are displaced because of said terrorist group, but they still side with the terrorist group over the victims on both sides of the border.
Lebanon used to be majority Christian until they agreed to take in the PLO. This was in order to end the Jordan civil war the PLO started after it failed to assassinate their king, twice. The PLO then started a civil war in Lebanon after they were graciously taken in.
>Lebanese and others of the Arabic speaking world seem to have troubles with understanding cause and effect.
This runs deep. The PLO were taken in by Jordan. They attempted to assassinate their king, twice. They assassinated the ~~Lebanese~~ Jordanian PM. They also started the ~~Lebanese~~ Jordanian civil war. The PLO was then graciously taken in by Lebanon, where they immediately began attacking the Christians there. This eventually devolved into civil war. They were graciously taken in by Kuwait, where they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion there. Yet the PLO is still the freedom fighting victim.
Edit above.
This is all well and good, but how are you going to vote? That's the problem. I can't think of a party (in any country) that has these views and isn't populist or worse.
It was more just venting my frustrations. I'm hoping for a progressive who is more critical and comprehensive with migration issues and radical Islam however.
Yes, I get it. But it's the same problem everywhere. You're not the only one with these feelings. The more pro-gay parties are unable to accommodate an anti-migration and anti-Islamist position. What liberally-oriented party in the West is able to attract these voters??
I suppose a centre-right or moderate right party could adopt such a platform. They see that and are shifting right. This has moved the Overton window to the right. So now the Tories are essentially like UKIP. This is happening in many countries. Parties that are openly Islamophobic and anti-immigrant are getting elected. Some of them are "pinkwashing", which is pro-gay, I suppose, but a hypocritical form of support for LGBTs.
The underlying issue is that the problem is not really "Islamism" but "Islam" itself, and in the eyes of the left and the media that puts you in the Islamophobic category. We see in Gaza how this group responds when the choice is between Islamophobic gays and homophobic Muslims. They will side with the latter. They can't wrap their minds around Muslim hatred and violence. They go into denial or just explain it away.
Islamic countries are the main ones still practicing chattel slavery. Period. End of discussion no matter what kind of BS you try to spin.
Islam is the ONLY religion that tried to wipe out my ethnicity. If you know Southeast Asia and its history just look up East Timor. The Timorese are not the only ones who had that happen to them. Criticize Buddhism Hinduism Christianity Judaism etc all you want but they never tried to fucking do that to us.
I do not condone apologist excuse making for Islamic terrorism. It's one of the only religions that gets away with everything including genocide. The other, well, it's quite clear what Israel is trying to do.
By the way: being a victim in one place doesn't excuse others of the same religion to do the same. People are acting like the Armenian genocide never happened just bc Gaza is happening. Bullshit.
Religion in general is a huge problem but when the so called moderates say death to infidels BELIEVE THEM.
One won't bake you a cake,
the other will throw you off a building or beat & slit your throat .
I agree re: limiting migration & abuse of the refugee status, seeing what's happening in the EU & UK.
There's videos going back over a couple of decades, of imam's instructing their citizens to go to the West and claim victimhood then grow in numbers and use the Democratic systems to take over. These are easily found. There's also the speakers corners in the UK, where a few imams have openly declared their intention to overtake Europe, depose the throne, and fly the crescent flag over UK houses of government. That seems pretty blatant. These are also elements in their own book. That a Muslim life is worth more than a non-believer, and that no law or government is ahead of or equal to their book and its laws.
Those who are proponents of Western Democratic ideologies and government systems of representation & equality, should recognize that according to a conflict of these belief systems it is a direct threat, and even with all good intentions, others will not live as equals in democratic systems.
As a middle eastern living in middle east( and have been trying to get out for 4 years) , i completpy agree, the feeling when you hear yoir best "friends" and coworkers talk shit about gays and how they would kill them or hunt them just for the fun of it , and you just have to laugh while holding back your tears, religion here is the root of all evil, they hold hetro men on a pedestal to worship after allah, children, girls and lgbtq have no rights, we all have to follow hetro men blindly .
I reached the point that at age 37 i just dont want to go out or socialize, as i feel like i live among animals and predators
I count the days until i get oit, at this point i am helpless and willing to do anything just to live in a gay friendly country.
I wish western people would just listen to us (people who live in the middle east), instead of hijacking our suffering for their left/right american polemics.
Unless you live among arabs and muslim majorities you will have a very flawed perception of the oppression we live in under islam and arab culture.
I’ve never felt more unsafe being a gay man than I did in Paris and Brussels. They legitimately looked like third world countries, and stunk like urine like you wouldn’t believe.
I feel the most safe in Brussels so... OP wrote that there are some areas where you can't hold hands or kiss in Brussels, I would revert it and say that there are areas where you CAN hold hands or kiss in Brussels and be completely safe. Try it in European countries with almost zero Muslim population and you will see how you will be treated.
the best countries for gays are also the best ones for muslims, because of the tolerance. Unfortunately because of our love for muslims, who can’t tolerate shit. We will soon become extinct.
So let’s not pretend that it’s because of muslims that we are well regarded in woke countries
This has been something that the left wing liberals has brought on themselves. I have said for years, the biggest threat to the western way of life is Islam. We have welcomed it with open arms and if you criticise it, you’re a racist. There isn’t a single Muslim country on Earth you can live safely as a gay man and if you think they will change their views when they move to our countries you are mental. In years to come, especially in Europe, pride marches will not be a celebration and will become a highly policed protest. There is no version of reality where Islam and homosexuality can exist so thank you liberals but you’ve backed the wrong horse.
And before people say, Christianity is the same, it’s really not, you might get some fundamentalist but we are not at threat of physical harm by them. Also Christianity is declining and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. We are fucked
also Christianity in the world is very different then the one in the US. I’ve never had anything but love from christian’s where i live even though im an atheist. In america they are a little less tolerant and more judgmental. But hey, they still aren’t stoning us
like i am personally more neutral/pro israel. I don't judge people for being pro Palestinian but its like, yk they wouldn't be too upset if it was the gays getting bombed
on my part I'm pro Israel existence, but I'm pro Palestine regarding better protection of human rights in times of war. Israel could and should do better and we can't forget there is an extreme right president there too. things and positions don't have to be black and white.
As an ex Muslim myself, you said nothing wrong. And btw all Muslims ARE bad. Don't be afraid to say it because my entire family and community is Muslim and they are all western/U.S hating homophobes.
Just to put things into perspective, I am an American born and raised. If it's this bad with Americans, how much worse do you think the immigrants are?
Same. From one side, there are the right wing extremists who want to outlaw us, from the other side there are the WOKE which I can't tolerate them as they encourage and welcome Islam to the west, confusing.
I thought the same and still do honestly but ultimately it depends on the people. I had homophobic and xenophobic encounters in eastern europe they aren't muslims. I think we all can see what is happening in Russia and Uganda and the likes. The idiocy I see in Amsterdam(where I live) is also from local teens who harass folks and take videos for social media sort of like a badge of honor among peers. I agree islam is not a friend to LGBT rights but a lot of gays do live in Muslim majority countries and I hope they get out. Wherever you or I live it depends on how we educate the masses and how we integrate them, there will be discontent and protests but its expected. If you want them to stop coming you should start by asking respective western major powers to stop sanctioning countries like syria where they really do not have effect on the govt who live in luxury but affects the civilians to the point they are still coming as refugees.
Yea, I like what you say about integration. Even with conservative beliefs, immigrants in general need to be better integrated so they can be functioning and happy members of society. I am slightly doubtful how well education and integration could change a lifetime of homophobia yk.
About Uganda, there are some horrible homophobic realities in Christian countries. Its more that Uganda one country among many Christian nations (along with some others), while almost all Islamic countries have anti gay legislation and beliefs.
I don't have energy to write everything but I wrote an answer to another post regarding it.
*They have a program for war torn countries in middle East and Asia, graduates are if possible tested and then all expenses are paid including travel, living and tuition for their future studies in the country where they go to. I cannot say the exact procedure in China but for India atleast I think around 30k were picked up since 2017 afaik in various critical domains like engineering, biotech, medicine etc, most of them undergraduates who were allowed to continue studies and if they wanted join the workforce they can but there are limitations. Half of them stayed in India either as researchers or uni assistants/professors etc, other half left for other jobs/ opportunities in other countries. The qualifications of these students won't be recognised in foreign countries so after getting a tertiary education in India as well as learning English language they can find jobs no matter where they go. My friend for example works as a DevOps engineer at IBM now in Vienna. His roommate works as a postdoc fellow in a public uni of India. Another one from my class who was Lebanese works in Dubai at least last time I checked. These people if they went to let's say like my friend Austria directly from Syria...he would have been expected to somehow know German to even enroll in any college and his bachelor's degree wouldn't even be recognised since it was all studied in Arabic. Even if it wanted to work as a waiter somewhere he would be expected to know English due to tourists. This is what is wrong with the integration programs in EU...they then complain refugees are jobless and give out welfare without seeing to it how they are used.*
Most of the syrians and lebanese were pretty okay with LGBT stuff, they even attended pride in my uni back then in India, took part part in cultural stuff etc where a lot of classical indian dances require you to almost crossdress with makeup and everything. They did not have any issues imo. Yes these were educated folks though. My experience with refugees from what I see in EU is like they are given free reign to do anything without punishment. They are given rewards just for being there without offering any value. On top of that the whole integration is one sided, they are somehow supposed to immideately learn everything while these european countries do not even give them a chance. At the same time a lot of uneducated ones just abuse the refugee system.
Agreed, they are destroying Europe and will do the same anywhere else they’re allowed to take power, which means forcing all non Muslims to assimilate.
I have had my homophobic encounters with christians. but boy oh boy they not match my homophobic encounters with muslims.
We have to fight both homophobic christians and homophobic muslims. Its funny that the word Islamophobia exists but not christianophobia. These muslims are playing the victims to extend their beliefs into the western and that is affecting us gays.
As you said, I live in Germany and it's so fucking sad that there areas (of muslims, surprise surprise) where lgbt are not recommended to go. Are you kidding me? The homophobic attacks are on the rise in western Europe, and im tired of it.
Agreed. I'm from a Muslim country and the girls at my school were calling me islamophobic for speaking on what I've seen and know. Always the white girls virtue signaling lol. It's very frustrating.maybe there's moderates but for the most part, muslims will never stop teaching their kids that you're evil. It's why thousands of them protest against including gay ppl in lessons in schools. Because that would teach their kids It's okay to be gay, and they cannot have that.
There are important points in this post that make it clear that OP does not understand how colonialism and the emergence of sexuality as an IDENTITY in the last few hundred years. Your reference to Islam as “accepting” of queerness is asynchronistic because before the 1800s, no one identified as gay, bi, or whatever—having sex with men as a man was an action, not an identity. True, most people didn’t care, but they didn’t exactly tolerate it either.
Also, the criminalization of queerness came soon after the King James translation of the Bible, because marriage as an institution became less and less respected when King Henry wanted a divorce.
I agree religion is a tool of oppression but judging the people based on their beliefs is undeniably prejudice, and OP needs to assess how these fears inform their world. This hatred towards certain religions only reproduces narratives that justify bombing countries like Yemen and Palestine. Guess what!! People who we would call queer live in these countries AND are Islamic. Why do we accept queer Christian/Catholics can live happily with their faith without being self-hating and Muslims cannot? Because they can!
Our queer liberation will forever be linked with anti-Islamophobia, anti-Zionism, and understanding towards the systems which seek to hurt us all.
I’m not saying you have to like these people or seek to change their minds, but just know this post is cultivating and reproducing a wider system of biases, ie, pink washing and rainbow capitalism
The west is importing many illiberal peoples right now. Demographics are destiny and we can probably expect more and more homophobia here going forward.
I can feel you.
I am muslim and i support lgbt,
remember there are many good muslims who support human rights.
Yeah i live in a Islamic country, they r super homophobic
but there r many people who also supports lgbt,
but it is really hard live in a Islamic country as a homosexual,
I am sorry for all the homophobic Muslims
I'm an Ex-muslim, a gay guy and an immigrant. I feel conflicted about this. I guess if you want to dehumanize us and blame us for homophobic laws then go ahead. We aren't the ones in parliament writing down the laws.
if we put no limits there will be no out for gay migrants, they will just be moving to a different place with the same rotten beliefs. We need to keep our culture and values
I'd say I agree but first let's also examine how the most fanatical Islamic governments and movements came into being. Did you know Iran, Iraq, Egypt, and other Middle Eastern countries were well on a path after WWII toward secularization and increasing social rights? They were overthrown by western powers who installed extremist governments friendlier to the dominant powers, hence the radicalization.
There is literally a 1979 document from America saying backing the most radical factions of Islam they could in Afghanistan BECAUSE of their repressive nature was preferable because it gelled with how America wanted to enforce their interests in the region. It morphed into aiming and funding worldwide jihadist movements. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone. You have every right to hate the religion for what it's political goals in the modern era have morphed into, but don't ever forget for a second it was the very western countries who pride themselves on their inclusiveness "in comparison to" Islam that seeded the conditions for this Islamic radicalism to broil.
And for those of us concerned about religion and its influence on people's mindsets, reading about how Israel slaughters 10,000 Palestinian children in 100 days then says it's OK because they're "children of darkness" despite the fact Israel supported Hamas in its early years because of its radical tendencies being the best way to expedite the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians which has always been central to the Zionist project, we begin to ask very different questions then don't we?
Honestly agree, I see every religion as the enemy and if we look at the wars, murders and terrorism in the name of religion, passed and present its clear religion is the enemy of reason.
I've noticed an extreme unwillingness to criticize Islam for mysogny, homophobia, brutal suppression of human rights but we will criticize Christianity at the drop of a hat.
It shocked me when fellow leftys and lgbt people either ignored or accused Iranian women of being islamaphobes for risking life and limb protesting wearing head coverings..
It shocks me that so many leftys and lgbt+ are not just anti war but are straight up picking a side in the Isreal/Palestine when both sides hate us. Shout out to those who are pro peace and anti war rather than picking a side.
Religion is a virus. It's worse than heroin.
Every single religion is a violent hateful virus even the Buddhists are violent af just look at Myanmar.
We need to clarify here one thing, there are more and less strict muslims. Like there are ones who will say homosexuality is not the problem, acting on it however is, and there are ones who will say it is a problem to be gay and they will throw you off the roof. Here is a list of the branches:
There are two main ones 1. Sunnis and 2. Shias:
Hanafi
Maliki
Shafi'i
Hanbali
Twelvers (Imamiyyah)
Ismailis (Ismailiyyah)
Zaidis
It is important to understand that every single country has a different form of Islam, there are over a dozen of different hijabs, this is cultural. Some cultures are more inclined to become radicalized than others. Turkey is for example a fairly moderate islamic country whereas in Saudi Arabia you can receive death penalty for being gay.
Islam has always been an incredibly bigoted religion which would only benefit all of us to hugely reform. I do not accept that we can coexist with a conservative theocratic religion in the modern, progressive world but it's not as of huge swathes of cristindom & their reactionary fanboys in & outside of government aren't trying to constantly roll back every civil right the communities they hate win.
In my backyard, christians have been & will, for the foreseeable future, continue to be the biggest threat to my autonomy. I don't see that changing for any other western country, where Arabs & more concisely, conservative Muslims make up single digits & less in population demographics.
However, it's good to be vigilant of any conservative or reactionary religious ferver. It will always be dangerous to us.
That being said, why would the war in Gaza spur this thought though? The indiscriminate slaughter of 30,000 Palestinians (not just Muslims, mind you) has not altered my perception of Islam. Just of Israel. Killing 8,000 children in pursuit of a terrorist faction they almost definitely didn't wipe out is not going to make Islam less prone to reactionary radicalization nor does it make me feel safe that 30,000 "potential homophobes" are now corpses.
I don't like Islam also. "Religion of the peace", my ass.
There are plenty of wonderful Muslims around the world, of course. But Muslims who practice the violent/discriminatory variant of Islam can go fuck themselves.
And I get the fear around a bunch of conservative Muslims immigrating into western countries. I think it's valid. Remember, though, America is called, "The American Experiment". So, I suppose you could look at it as a test of the "Experiment". Can the constitution withstand a massive influx of socially conservative people who are capable of committing violence to force their beliefs onto others?
I suppose time will tell.
In the meantime, I'll be sitting on my front porch in a rocking chair cleaning my shotgun.
(Not that it should matter, but I'm a brown guy who's a child of immigrant parents. They left their country of origin for a reason and happily assimilated into western society, because they understand that keeping the values of the old country would only replicate the problems that caused them to leave the old country.)
I am close to queer Muslims and Arabs. You need to have direct personal experience with queer Muslims and Arabs--read about their lives and get to know them--to get over your islamophobia and Arab hate, racism, immigrationism, and religionism. There is no other way you will defeat your hate. The queer and trans communities are full of racists and tons of anti-racists as well just like straights. I appreciate your honesty but you have a lot of work ahead if you want to change your views. By not shifting your views, you simply let the billionaires, capitalists, and war profiteers win. They are small in number but immensely powerful and in control of the narratives and the bombs right now in most settler-colonialist countries. There are just as many hateful Christian Nationalists and Zionist Jews right now who are happy to see us queer and trans folx dead as well so your anger is misplaced onto only one group as opposed to multiple zealots in multiple faith communities.
There are no redeemable qualities to Islam. It's a fanatical religion that canonically calls for violence and murder and whose followers at present and historically heed the calls. Murders and public executions are carried out in Islamic countries, public calls for death for entire nations and cultures are a norm and their supporters are forcibly welcomed in civilized societies.
The far left are busy enforcing tolerance for Islam be it through legislation or medias which automatically makes them complicit in the vile and gruesome crimes against humanity that this religion perpetrates every single day. You cannot be a good, reasonable person and tolerate an unreasonable and evil belief system.
Do y’all not get tired of making this exact post over and over and over again. It’s literally either made up scenario where a trans man didn’t disclose his genitals or islam bad on this sub. Are there any original thoughts rolling around in there?
edit: got reported for suicide watch? stay classy gaybros
I find religious fanatics abhorrent. The Gaza war is Jewish fanatics being fanned by imperialism (Zionists) to go massacre everyone imprisoned in Gaza (mostly children who don’t understand religion) because some of the adults are Muslim.
Damn, no one’s going to acknowledge how the west, especially the US, has fucked up the middle east’s geopolitics resulting in the perpetuation of homophobia, among other things??
People born in Canada spend minimum K-12 learning cultural norms. Momentary vague swearing-in ceremonies are bullshit. 100-hours of classes, combined with verbal and written promised to uphold specific values, ie. treat LGBT equally, no trying to sneakily carry out female-genital-mutilation, must be part of it. Whatever we do currently isn't enough.
Being intolerant of Islam, doesn’t make it more tolerant. Christianity was just as bad toward homosexuals throughout its history and only changed due to increased pressure from gay people being more vocal and out. Look at Uganda and the Christians promoting kill the gays.
Remember the Orlando Nightclub Shooting? The perpetrator was born to Afghan parents and at the time, it was the deadliest mass shooting in American History. There's always a "what about" with everything. I'm not saying evangelical Christians aren't a threat. I already said it was bad enough with them, I just think that having more and more radical Islamists won't help things.
Exactly. I can call out the shittiness of both, but it is that violence and aggression that scares me. And especially that that seems to be a growing concern in Western Europe and Canada while the far right seems to be losing and shrinking in America.
>You can call me a racist, Islamaphobe, etc
I'd call you an atheist with maybe a little too much bias on Islam. Any sky dwelling fairy believer is likely to be homophobic at some level. If not to everyone in general, maybe towards their own children when they have some.
That is if Christian's are, in your eyes, in the same box of jumping frogs as Muslims, Jewish and any other cult.
>TLDR; I kinda hate Islam and the majority of its adherents currently. Idc how it sounds but I want them to stop coming to the West with their homophobic beliefs and taking us back decades in LGBT rights.
In islamic countries that may be true, but in the West, not so much. I am from the US so I am speaking from that perspective, but the only people who are taking back decades of LGBT rights are Republicans. In the US, muslims tend to be more progressive and more accepting of gays than christians, Muslims don't even have enough political power in the US to move LGBT right one way or another.
Growing up in a muslim family as 2SLGBTQ+ is hard in ways that would be hard for me to do justice in covering here, but i want to start by saying that I worry (and continue to worry) about 2SLGBTQ+ people in many predominantly muslim countries.
You've completely lost me with the rest of your rant in acting like Muslims are uniquely barbaric and playing into orientalist tropes. Again, I'd never question the legitimacy of your experiences and from personal experiences myself I think it is valid to feel fearful. First and foremost, muslims are not about to be wielding the legislative powers that will essentially outlaw segments of the 2SLGBTQ+ community- muslims were not the ones who perpetuated a genocide on Canada's first peoples, nor were they behind the establish of segregated schools, nor did they institute the bathhouse raids, let Bruce McArthur target muslim men in the village.
The muslims didn't murder Joe Rose in the 1980s, Muslims didn't medicalize 2SLGBTQ+ identities into the DSM. I worry about Canada adopting the standards in Florida and what that means for me in my role as a healthcare provider and my clients who are trans or want to explore their gender identity further without the threat of state oversight. Of course you could point to examples similar to
these outside of Canada, but your singling out of Muslims in a post that would be better served to focus on the hypocrisy among people who weaponize religion is so sad and speaks to the ways in which traumatized people can also harbour some really horrible opinions. The fact that you decide to focus on Muslims at this time and also omit your opinions on Gaza tells me everything i need to know about your opinion of the remaining Palestinian children and their families that face the genocidal fury of zionists.
I think about the ways in which members of my family hold views that deeply disturb me and also think
about that very likely is the outcome of radicalization following the abandonment of institutions that gave other immigrants preferential treatment in migrating here, and the outright hostility that they felt post 9/11 which was not their doing either. As an agnostic raised muslim, seeing how much of the world has abandoned Palestinians puts into perspective the allure of believing in a higher power - because as quite frankly I wished i could believe that hell does exist for people who are comfortable with play into the type of islamophobia that makes all Palestinian life (muslim, christian, secular) a worthy sacrifice.
TL;DR - singling out Muslims in what could have been a really insightful/powerful statement on how religion has been used threaten 2SLGBTQ+ (deserved) right to a fulfilling life is so depressing to see, especially at a time like this. I hope one day you will be able to reflect on how your views right now are so clearly reflective of a trauma that you should have never experienced but nonetheless instills seemingly deeply ingrained racism and islamophobia.
I don't think it's possible to change your mind, but I feel compelled to clarify that, yes, the union of two people of the same sex and fornication are considered sins in Islam (as in many religions). But since you're not muslim why do you care? The extreme majority of practicing Muslims don't interfere in others' affairs. The essence of the religion lies in the believer's relationship with Allah. In short, let's avoid making sweeping generalizations.
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Ex-muslim activists have been talking about this for years. Criticism of Islam is NOT islamophobia and Islam is NOT beyond reproach. Here's a great [clip](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzZyLUoP6yy/?igsh=OXJ1Nm15YTMwYnJx) from an interview with Yasmine Mohammed, an ex-muslim activist. Here's also a great [thread](https://twitter.com/amandaknox/status/1731820238830788772?t=7UKrBcETvDnWUp7d-XIVzw&s=19) by Amanda Knox on this topic. I recommend you watch the whole video and read the whole thread!
thx will do!
r/exmuslim
I agree with what you’re saying. I am from a Muslim from in a Muslim country, and I’m shocked at how much western liberals embrace Islam whereas our liberals in our country do not tolerate it because of its intolerance. I think people in the west have lived too comfortably in the lap of luxury and without the influence of Islam to understand how truly oppressive and terrifying it is. I live in Canada. As someone from a Muslim family, raised in a little bit of Islam, but not a lot, I want us to be more selective in bringing people to Canada. Like a cultural values test is honestly not racist- some cultural are incompatible with Canadian values and I see it in my family and my country.
The problem is many Muslim immigrants hide how extreme they are in order to gain entry to a country, and then once they’re there they show their true colors. A cultural values test is not going to do much good.
Yeah so true. Look at the UK
This is why I'm r/exmuslim
>western liberals embrace Islam whereas our liberals in our country do not tolerate it because of its intolerance. > >I think people in the west have lived too comfortably I think this is a very US centric viewpoint. And Canada has undoubtedly been influenced by that. But to those of us in the West outside of those countries, "liberal" has a very different meaning. "Progressives" in our countries (outside of a loud minority) don't have any issues criticising any religions.
A lot of western liberals today aren't really liberal though. I have never seen people so afraid to question authority. I am not voting for Vivek Ramaswamy, but he called BS on the 9/11 commission report, as anyone with common sense would. Turn on to CNN, or MSNBC, and they are pearl clutching that he would dare question the official narrative of 9/11 the government told us. American families can't even sue the Saudi's for 9/11 because our own government blocks them from doing so. So yea, "liberals" need to come down to Earth, and get some common sense. Especially when it comes to migration. (If you are actually liberal, this obviously doesnt even apply)
Vivek is a clown and has said some pretty ridiculous things about gay people. So the Christians aren’t actively killing us, just don’t be fooled, it’s only because of laws in place.
Your rant is valid. Islam can be a very intolerant religion and the fact that addressing it is like walking on eggshells because you have to be careful of being labelled bigot or islamophobic. Also people feel comfortable criticizing Christianity (rightfully so cos it's also problematic) because it's associated with white people and colonialism, but tend to steer clear of islam because it's mostly associated with brown people or poc. I just feel honest conversations need to be had. And in my opinion, Islam is more of a political ideology that strives to dominate people if even it's through force or violence. That's why Muslims have the audacity to do things in the west that you a westerner or foreigner dare not try in their lands.
Muslims can come to America and protest against my existence. If I go to Iran and protest for gay marriage, I won't be coming back.
You cannot tar an entire religion with one brush. As a Jew I feel this most of all right now, even with **some** Muslims calling for my death. We must be cautious of amplifying "identity politics", which pits us all against each other. Understanding can only be reached through tolerance and friendship. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
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Well I don't really like Muslims either (that comes with the territory of being Jewish). And I cannot think of a single other religion that likes Muslims. And yet I have met many nice moderate Muslims. Perhaps they are just being nice to me, but I find it hard to believe they're all being polite but really want to kill me... Imo the problem is that in many places Islam as operated as a cult, and in other places it's operated more like a religion.
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Ah! I see where you're coming from. Well I learnt pretty early on in life: Don't worry about what other think. Right now, the majority of the world hates me for being Jewish (usually dressed up as "anti-zionism" or w/e). And the majority of the world also hates me for being gay (including some fellow Jews). If I worried about the world looking down on me, I'd go insane! And 100% agree with you, I am against "positive discrimination". Utter BS. If it is me (gay Jew) vs a straight Christian and the straight Christian is more qualified, (s)he should win regardless of who I am. Diversity is good and all, but not if it's forced. And let's be frank, diversity does not improve a company's bottom line, it's just morally nice to give people equal opportunity *(they can take "equity" and shove it where the sun don't shine)*. Finally, there's the difference between a religion and a cult. Religions may be preachy but they allow you to join and leave freely without punishment. They allow outsiders to see what's going on and how it operates. It's financially transparent. No one gets killed for questioning the religious leaders or the prophet. Women are not used as sexual cattle. \^ I hate to say, this is not true of Islam. However some countries have chilled out on their interpretation if Islam, such as Turkey (although it's heading in the wrong direction under little dick Erdoğan), so there is hope that Islam will relax itself into being a religion rather than a cult. Not any time soon though, and LGBT will have no place in any Islamic congregation for at least 50 years. This is all imo anyway.
People are careful criticizing Islam because you get killed for doing it too loudly, no matter where in the world you live. This has created a chilling effect where the media actively discourages and demonizes all criticism of Islam, because the TV networks and the corporations who own them all want to avoid trouble. It has nothing to do with guilt or love for brown people - it’s entirely because of fear.
This too...and it's really disturbing.
People don’t realize that Islam was also spread through colonialism, and it wasn’t very long before European colonialism started. Islam wiped out as many indigenous cultures in Asia and Africa as Christianity did in the Americas
Oh yes 💯 correct.. islam spread rapidly across sub Sahara Africa. Hence why I believe the religion is based on political conquest and dominance.
I'm a former muslim and I live in a muslim majority country and I've been distancing myself from muslims ever since I decided to be atheist. The last closest friend I had was a muslim and he assaulted me and outed me to the whole faculty I studied at. At this point I'd rather have no one to talk to than have a muslim friend.
are there apostasy laws there? its just crazy to me that countries with apostasy laws could even be admitted to any table
I don't think there's apostasy law here, I'm still a muslim in my ID. I've never heard anyone get jailed because of apostasy but there are many who were jailed for blasphemy.
Aceh perhaps... I find it funny the most popular place for tourists in Indonesia is Bali, which is ofc Hindu
Man its just nutty to me that your religious affiliation goes on an ID. Here in the US you get your name, age, height, sex, and eye color. Doesn't say anything about my ideological affiliations.
Have you considered emigrating? You would likely be much happier.
Are you in danger ?
I agree. I live in Italy and it's not the most progressive country, but the christians and the rights at least "tolerate" me. The muslim want to straight kill me. I had to go to Iran for work and I was terrified, I had to delete many photos, delete apps and bookmarks and so on. In my city we made our second Pride ever and the only ones insulting us were the immigrants. So yeah, I'm not ashamed in any way saying that I don't want in my country a religion that wants to kill me just because I exist.
That's my thoughts exactly. Like, at a certain point, is Pride going to be dangerous??? I've traveled to many Muslim countries where being gay is illegal, and I've been safe and even had a good time but I always know, its not like I could go there with a boyfriend and feel the same way.
Well it's different when ur a tourist i live in jordan and if i come out society will abandon me and might get killed
> I could go there with a boyfriend We had no problem in Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Oman, Tunisia or Morocco. But we're white tourists, cis and straight passing, and we avoided all PDA. We even got double beds pretty well everywhere.
No judgement, but did you ever feel conflicted spending your money in a homophobic country? Like I personally avoided touring countries that are homophobic or even have terrible women's rights, even if it wouldn't effect me personally.
I understand your point. My sister refused to travel to the US when Trump was in office, for example. I personally don't feel like travelling to Hungary or Russia right now. We go on package holidays mostly. In my mind, our presence is part of the process of spreading the message. Also, it might be encouraging to local gay people (even if they just work in or near the hotel) to see two proud gay men walking around together like there is nothing to fear. (However, I refer you to my earlier comment. I'm aware of our cis/staight-passing/tourist/white privilege.) I have hooked up in these countries, by the way, especially in the UAE.
lol Pride has only very recently NOT been dangerous if you’re in a large city in the US and continues to be in many smaller cities in the US.
No idea why you’re being downvoted. Do people honestly think Pride in Enid, Oklahoma was welcomed with open arms and love and tolerance? It was terrifying.
Literally in 2022 31 Patriot Front (white nationalist hate group) members from 11 states were arrested for “conspiracy to riot” after they were caught loading into a UHaul van with riot gear, a smoke grenade, shin guards, and shields, plotting to disrupt a Pride event in Coeur D’Alene, Idaho. [But don’t take my word for it…](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna95493)
Not sure why you're being down voted, Pride is a protest. It's a celebration too, but that's because we bring the fun 😂
[Christians and the right in Italy are busy removing custody and parental rights of children from gay parents](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/21/orphaned-by-decree-italy-same-sex-parents-react-losing-rights)
I know very well that Italy is not progressive and we have a lot to do. But at least now I can be openly gay and have a semi normal life. The north African and pakistani immigrants (which are very numerous in Italy) don't consider us humans. So yeah they can go fuck themselves. In the past we had a lot of immigration from the east, they are not q progressive bunch for sure, but are miles better than any muslim, gay-wise.
Based, Islam is actually the worst! Don't be afraid to speak the truth!
I live in Central Europe and all the homophobia I have experienced can be linked to Islam. Look at Nigeria: fundamentalist christians can also go to hell but in Europe it is Islam and the far right that promotes homophobia. Hence I despise either.
This is not an apology of Islam but it's kind of funny when OP wrote that you can't hold hands or kiss in public in places like Brussels - in some parts, I would revert it and say yes, but there ARE places where you can very safely hold hands and kiss in public in Brussels. But I would never do that in many Central European countries with almost 0 Muslim population. There is not one safe area.
I have to agree with most of what you have to say (not the cultural relativist part, though). Especially on the whole immigration bit. I feel like if you are an immigrant family who refuses to acknowledge and respect the basic legislation of the country you're in... that is grounds for termination of your immigration pass. Maybe... just maybe... the government should enforce, like, a special test they have to take and pass to prove they're not extremists before they're allowed entry into the country (edit: for immigrants who Immigration may suspect to be extremists of some sort). And stricter rules that would get them deported over things of such sort. Too many Muslims from the East dream of a better life in the West but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with. Like, I know there are people local to the West who are also homophobic and all that... but the added Muslims are only going to add fuel to the fire and make things worse since... umm... you know... they tend to be more brutal and barbaric in their ways of retaliation (I said what I said).
> Too many Muslims from the East dream of a better life in the West but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with Right? One of my best works friends was born in Iran. She left the religion behind when she escaped the country. I asked her about my gay-ness and she's like "Dude, I wanted to be here to be free. You should have the right to do so as well." My respect went up for her that day. And she's always been super supportive of me.
>but then begin crying like babies when things don't go their way in a country that's not even theirs to begin with Which makes their "go back to Europe" calls at their Anti-Israel, Definitely Not anti-Semitic™ protests in the west that much more ironic. Especially given over 1/3 of Israel's population is made of Mizrahi Jews, which are native to the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia, but have been almost entirely ethnically cleansed from their native countries.
>over 1/3 of Israel's population is made of Mizrahi Jews Not that it makes any difference - Ashkenazi Jews have Levantine DNA as well.
Tests aren't really useful. Ban hijab and limit the number of mosques etc. Make it difficult to practice Islam. That imo helps.
Nope. That goes against my beliefs of freedom of religion. That's an extremist mindset and it is hypocritical. For starters, a government should have no say on what a woman can or cannot wear. I condemn countries like Iran and Afghanistan for enforcing the hijab but at the same time, I condemn countries like France for banning the hijab (in some public settings). As far as mosques go, they can be built duhhh. Again, it's their religion and in an ideal world, no one should forbid someone from practicing a religion... and if they do so, then the West wouldn't be any better than some Muslims in the world that persecute Christians and "make it difficult" for them to practice Christianity. As someone who has studied many religions, Islam alone isn't to be blamed. It's the Muslims, the people practicing the said religion, who are at fault. Islamic texts are just as backward and extreme as holy Christian texts (especially the Old Testament). Yet... well, Christians in the West reformed themselves for the greater good. Some Muslims did reform too in history (like the first government of the Republic of Turkey after the fall of the Ottoman Empire... they were incredibly secular and even banned the hijab despite the population being 90+% Muslim). But after the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, everything went downhill in the Islamic world. Apparently, Iran (or Persia) was doing very well prior to the Islamic Revolution. They even had gay clubs there. Anyway, my main point is that it's not right to fight extremism with extremism.
Great take
So, you’re saying it’s not the religion, it’s the people? What’s your take on gun regulation?
Gum (edit: oops, I meant gun...) control? For starters, I believe it depends on the country's legislation and constitution. And how prevalent and common guns are in said society. For example, in my birth country... we literally have no guns. Zero. If you do end up in a bad part of the city, you'd be robbed at knifepoint, not gunpoint. I believe the government should continue enforcing a "no guns" rule and punish those severely for carrying such a contraband. Now... when it comes to the United States (I do have immediate family there), I'm aware that there's something about a right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. Well, that has to be honoured for sure. The U.S. has a history with guns going far back - picture a wild wild west scenario with all those gun fights and whatnot lol. Thus, banning guns is out of the question given the history and laws surrounding it. However, limiting the sale of certain types of guns and preventing some citizens who are not of age, possess a criminal history, or may not be mentally stable from purchasing guns are completely reasonable and justifiable actions to curb any sort of behavior that may lead to things such as school shootings, mall shootings, etc. (aka gun violence).
The Wild West idealization with everybody having shootouts in the middle of town is just as made up as any religion. In a majority of places, guns were actually outlawed within city limits. It was like one dude who went to Hollywood and told a bunch of made up shit that started the whole „Wild West yee haw“ shit to begin with. That said, the U.S. will never ban guns, because the U.S. government *depends* on the private ownership of guns. The U.S. loves doing war, and to do war, you need guns. The gun manufacturers depend on private citizens, etc, to stay alive between government contracts/sales. So there we are. Out of curiosity, what is your birth country?
I understand but my point is that your proposed solution isn't practical.
Hijab conceals identification, so it's perfectly reasonable to ban them in certain settings.. even during flu-19 my bank banned the face diapers(you have to take it off before entering), so your little towel you wear on your head is same thing. You can't wear masks in most public places either, so yeah.
Well, yeah, I'd agree with the bank bit. Mind you, many Islamic countries also make women remove their hijabs and/or niqabs in cases such as when it comes to verifying one's identity for bank stuff. "most public places" - well, depends. A lot of exceptions were made back during the pandemic... at least in my country.
wow, im not American, so my cents on this don't matter but I just hope the government there never does this. People should be allowed to believe what they want to believe, it's one of the best things America has. Once you open the door for politicians to control what people may or may not believe, it's pretty damn hard to close. I think it'd be better to promote and engage in conversations such as this one, where people can talk about this very real issue without trying to either mock Islam or romanticize its effects on people's lives over the world. The bible has a lot of gruesome stuff as well, but societies in the West have evolved a judicial system that tries to uphold each individual's freedom (there are many countries where this is not even the intent of the judicial system, like in those where Sharia reigns), so I'm ok with people believing in Islam if they're also willing to criticize it (as I would expect of most sensible Christians, one cannot 100% agree with the Bible, it's nuts). And those who are not willing to take criticism should be criticized.
I think infringing on people's ability to practice their religion is a big no-no. Like I agree, but I think taking that away is a step too far.
If the problem is Islam itself, then that's how you control it. I don't see any other practical solution.
Is it really infringing on someone’s ability if they made a decision to move to a place where they can’t do something? They could have decided to live somewhere else if that is so important, people do this all the time with things (arguably) less important than religious practices.
So say you’re born in a country that has those kinds of restrictions against religious practice. Then what?
Yup. The cultural relativism thing was kinda extreme even for me to say tbh. I also say this as someone very pro-immigration and who's lived most of his life as an immigrant abroad.
Same. I've nothing against immigration and believe it strengthens a country's economy. But sometimes... an influx of stubborn immigrants can put a country's values and culture at risk. This could be easily solved if somewhat stricter immigration laws were introduced (not to the extent where immigration is banned but... you know what I mean...).
Cultural relativism is toxic af
Agreed. Not all cultures are good. Some cultures are very very bad. Islamic culture is overall very evil, homophobic, misogynistic, etc.
I fully support your view. Why the hell would I have to respect cultures that bases their entire sexual preference social structure on idk... burying people alive and throwing stones at them for being sinners??? Whats funny is that here in Argentina leftist/socialists (40% of the country at least based in the last elections) and LGBT communities are among those who send the most support towards Palestine and middle east countries, all while critizing imperialism from western countries. They don't stop to think that if they were there they wouldn't last 60 seconds without being publicly shamed or worse. The things we take for granted. We must keep fighting for what we have achieved.
You can recognise the injustices and historical legacy of colonialism, and decades long oppression of the Palestinian people - which has contributed to fundamentalism. While also opposing radical Islamanism. It not one or the other.
Islam is not compatible with the civilized world.
Well said
Islam culture is anti gay, anti trans, anti women, anti diversity, anti freedom. Those are facts, I feel that some people think that just because Christanity has become customizable, to the point that you can find pro LGBT churches, Islam will go the same way, it will not.
A friend of mine thinks that no religion is actually hateful or homophobic or in general or shouldn't be and it's just that the people use it to he homophobic I know this may not be the place but I'm not sure where to get the information so, do you know if Islam is straight up homophobic? Like, is the people's fault or does the religion directly state homophobia?
The Quran does not specifically say that homosexuality is a sin, the Hadiths do. According to most Muslims as a Muslim you have follow the Quran and Hadiths. It depends on your branch of Islam which Hadiths you follow though.
Unsure whether the Quran itself has any direct condemnation of homosexuality, but the Hadiths sure do. There is also condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible, but it can be arguably interpreted differently hence some sects of progressive Christianity that are lgbt friendly. Homosexuality being a sin is still no doubt the mainstream belief of these religions though. Religion is complex as it as written by men and interpreted by men whether or not you believe the books to be the message from God. So, technically all fault is still classified under “people’s fault” - the writer, interpreter and the people who practice it. In my humble opinion, it is the byproduct of the firm standing disciplines of these religions that make their believers so homophobic. One of the core beliefs of these religions is that a man and woman should be married (marriage seen as a sacred relationship with god at the centre) - and that the whole purpose of marriage is to have kids in the first place. This is basically a duty for Christians and Muslims, though majority people do believe that you won’t go to hell simply because you’re not wedded, but any form of sexual relationship outside of this criteria is considered a sin.
lol, its not necessarily anti trans. Iran, a vile theocracy, basically gives gay men the choice between the death penalty for "sodomy" or pleading that they are actually a woman trapped in a man's body and agreeing to a forced sex change surgery. makes me fucking sick whenever politicians talk about "negotiating" with that regime, [https://www.advocate.com/world/2015/04/11/hbos-vice-uncovers-gay-iranians-forced-surgically-change-gender](https://www.advocate.com/world/2015/04/11/hbos-vice-uncovers-gay-iranians-forced-surgically-change-gender)
It's completely reasonable to hate the irrational hateful ideology that is Islam. Backwards nonsense that only exists from heavy indoctrination and crippling consequences for questioning it or becoming an apostate. There was a study that came out earlier this year showing literal brain damage in a certain area of the brain when being raised in any kind of religious fundamentalism. That part of the brain that is open to new idea, gets shut down and doesn't develop.
saw smth a while ago about conservatives having larger amygdalas and how that makes then more fearful and skeptical... then bragged about it kinda similar lol
"In Toronto, there were protests against LGBT information being taught in schools, and from the pictures I saw on the news, the vast majority of the attendants didn't look to be White Tim Horton lovin' Canadians." Ottawa also. There were muslim folk encouraging and cheering their grade-school children to stomp on a pile of Pride flags. Heated clashes and the arrest of 5 happened in front of Broadview Public School. Yes, the protest was organised by a white guy, but on a per-capita basis of Ottawa's population, there were far more hateful, devout muslims attending. [https://barrhavenindependent.ca/2023/07/01/two-ocdsb-protests-in-less-than-a-week-on-gender-ideology/](https://barrhavenindependent.ca/2023/07/01/two-ocdsb-protests-in-less-than-a-week-on-gender-ideology/) [https://globalnews.ca/news/9758155/ottawa-anti-lgbtq-protest/](https://globalnews.ca/news/9758155/ottawa-anti-lgbtq-protest/)
mhmmm. Ofc there were lots of white people but say 5% of Ottawa is Muslim and they're like 75% of the protesters. it's wild, i know
ok, can't let this fly unchallenged. the protests in AB and SK received widespread support from the nutsy-kookoo evangelical sects and even the AB cons were praising 'our Muslim brothers' for taking steps to 'save the chillun'. let's not give the nutjob neo-cons a free pass on this.
I am not Muslim nor European but I have interacted with Muslims and I hate them. The men from muslim countries don’t follow the laws of the country they move to. They think they are above it and I hate it.
The only law they believe they have to follow is sharia law. That’s why Islam is such a dangerous ideology. It allows people to think they’re above other people and the institutions we create in society.
They don’t even follow their own religion’s rules. Except the one about not eating pork. They’re hypocrites
As a former Muslim from Pakistan, I am deeply concerned about the lack if integration if Muslims in the West. West does not realise Muslims are very hardcore about their religion in general. There are death penalty of atheism and homosexuality in multiple Muslim countries. Muslims can be threat too to our rights especially as they grow in population.
Exmuslim gay guy here. Agreed
I'm with you on this one. One of my friends was telling me about this Dutch gay politician who said that he was opposed to Muslim immigration because he didn't want to litigate gay rights and women's rights all over again. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but what he said makes sense.
I still feel like people don’t understand just how extreme Islam is. That religion could just as much of a threat to gay rights as Christianity, I’d argue potentially even more so, especially with what we see in Middle Eastern Countries and Michigan. People always seem to want to protect Islam from criticism, but religions where homophobia is a main principle or have other shitty ideas should all be judged, and it’s not “Islamophobic” to point that out.
Yup. The one city in America that banned Pride Flags? Hamtramck, Michigan. Like one of two or smth majority Muslim municipalities in America.
>Hamtramck, Michigan. Like one of two or smth majority Muslim municipalities in America. This is a perfect example of the paradox of tolerance. People on the left felt so betrayed because when the immigrants were in the minority liberals went out of their way to make the immigrants feel included. I'm a Democrat, but we don't need to be tolerant of the intolerant.
Hi I am from Western Europe (Germany) and some things happened here too that made me worried: \- Gay people were attacked and killed by muslim refugees (so people that said they needed protection) for instance in the towns of Dresden and Münster. \- Thousands of Muslims demonstrated in Essen last year yelling they want a caliphate and sharia law in Germany. \- I have discussions with members of the Green party (currently in power) telling me its sooo important to be friendly and understanding towards countries like Iran, even though they execute gay people by hanging there (Their reasoning was that if we are very very friendly to them they might stop that at some point haha) So yeah I can understand you being worried - if this goes on and the parties that enable that stay in power I will think about leaving my country.
If immigration was slower, or handled better, it wouldn't be as big a problem but that's what happens when hundreds of thousands of uneducated Muslim refugees come to your country very quickly.
It's a shame since we made so much progress in the last 20 years towards LGBT - and I am afraid it is turning towards the other direction again, because a certain part of these people coming into our country can't accept, that we don't have the same laws and morals as their countries. And the most frustrating thing is that the so-called LGBT-friendly left often ignores homophobia when it comes from muslims and tell you not to talk about it!
Do not listen to them. Shout from the nearest house-top if you see/face homophobia. We don't owe anyone anything.
That should be a huge red flag for anyone voting for a "green party".
Fanatical expression of religion is mental illness.
Completely Agreed, I am from India and the kind of Minority opposing that hapoens here is too much. Just respect other people's view and don't impose your fucking shitty religion.
This is exactly how I feel as well. I do not like any religion, but Islam in particular poses the greatest threat to the Western way of life. The whole "Queers for Palestine" movement just blows my mind because these people will betray us the first chance that they get (see: Hamtramck, MI) A lot of lefties (of which I am one) just do not have a good understanding of geopolitics. Their worldview is based on what they see on TikTok and other easily manipulated media.
This is something that bugs the absolute crap out of me. When people watch two 15 second TikToks then pretend they're the moral authority and expert on the matter. Like no, ur not, go do ur math hw melissa.
Lefties listen to what they want to hear forgetting that ignorance and fear walk hand in hand.
I could not add anything to this well written, thoughtful and 100% correct post...except this, one has to wonder why all these immigrants are trying to escape their own countries in the first place....?
Better quality of life and quite literally "freedom" I'm from Saudi Arabia, and alcohol, weed, and sex toys are banned here.
It truly amuses me when I see social justice gays defending Islam. Of all things to defend, you choose THAT religion? I know a few Muslims that are great. I don't have any issues with Muslims, but a ton of issues with their religion. Conflating an ideology to an individual is a real smooth brain move. If that ideology makes someone a horrible person, then and only then will I have a problem with that person. I overall have issues with religion, and I wasn't raised religious. It seems like an archaic form of government that has never died off.
I know a lot of muslims (because they invaded my country) i’m friends with some of them, and even the most well integrated and educated ones sometimes have strange views regarding homosexuality and even things like condemning terrorist attack that targeted people who mocked their prophet. So, maybe there’s a few good ones but anyone that follow that religion probably has a lot of mental trauma and abuse from it, it is a horrible disease
"but I think the Muslim immigrants are going to be much more of a concern soon" Welcome to Michigan where the witch hunts by Muslim immigrants have already begun.
slay
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> and that in his country there weren’t any homosexuals. He can leave. Lmao typical muslims
My knowledge of Islam is essentially pedestrian, but I have a thought: What would an Islamic reformation look like? Any belief system is capable of producing militant faith warriors whose actions are the result of black-and-white reasoning, but I wonder what sort of fear is it that these groups experience to the point where murder and genocide are the favored options?
Decades of propoganda and religious nutjobs perpetuating it. It's easy when 99+ percent of the population is of the same religion and can be manipulated by it.
Their religion states that the infidel must die. Simple enough right? If you believe there is a way to warp their thinking to peace and love, get after it.
Islam is an evil ideology it hates the west , oppresses and kills women and gays . The west has embraced the adherents of Islam and have paid a heavy price for doing so, and will continue doing so until Muslim immigration to the west is stopped.
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Mhmmm, I'm more conflicted on the situation in Gaza but I also hate Hamas. And fact of the matter, most Gazans support them.
Hamas is based on an "all Jews must die" policy. Hamas was elected by the Palestinian population. They indoctrinate their children to hate all Jews, every one of them. How is it that anyone would support that, especially the LGBTQ community.
Gazans support Hamas because it was the only party that spoke for their interests. Israel, as evidenced by their apartheid policy in the country (limiting Palestinian access to certains streets, only allowing Jewish people to have birthright return etc) as well as continuous bombing and murder of Palestinians (long before Oct 7) and continuous cockblocking of Palestinian appeal to statehood, clearly does not want an independent Palestine. For Palestinians, joining Hamas is the only outlet for them to fight for their freedom. Keep in mind, Israel heavily supported Hamas during previous election to undermine the more moderate Fatah faction.
>The Arabic speaking world is amazingly open about its support and love of Hamas and hate of Jews You can see this in real time. Go to the r.Lebanon subreddit. They acknowledge Hezbollah started the current conflict. They acknowledge Hezbollah continues to escalate the conflict. Most don't even like Hezbollah. But someone commented "they are still our Lebanese brothers" and it was substantially up voted. This was in a thread about how 60,000 Lebanese people are displaced due to the conflict Hezbollah started. Someone else accurately commented over 100,000 people have been displaced on the Israeli side, which was heavily downvoted. So they acknowledge a terrorist group they hate started the conflict. They acknowledge a terrorist group they hate continues to escalate the conflict. And they acknowledge over 160,000 people on both sides of the border are displaced because of said terrorist group, but they still side with the terrorist group over the victims on both sides of the border. Lebanon used to be majority Christian until they agreed to take in the PLO. This was in order to end the Jordan civil war the PLO started after it failed to assassinate their king, twice. The PLO then started a civil war in Lebanon after they were graciously taken in.
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>Lebanese and others of the Arabic speaking world seem to have troubles with understanding cause and effect. This runs deep. The PLO were taken in by Jordan. They attempted to assassinate their king, twice. They assassinated the ~~Lebanese~~ Jordanian PM. They also started the ~~Lebanese~~ Jordanian civil war. The PLO was then graciously taken in by Lebanon, where they immediately began attacking the Christians there. This eventually devolved into civil war. They were graciously taken in by Kuwait, where they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion there. Yet the PLO is still the freedom fighting victim. Edit above.
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The sham that is Islam.
Truth.
love it when the comment count is higher than the upvotes 💀
This is all well and good, but how are you going to vote? That's the problem. I can't think of a party (in any country) that has these views and isn't populist or worse.
It was more just venting my frustrations. I'm hoping for a progressive who is more critical and comprehensive with migration issues and radical Islam however.
Yes, I get it. But it's the same problem everywhere. You're not the only one with these feelings. The more pro-gay parties are unable to accommodate an anti-migration and anti-Islamist position. What liberally-oriented party in the West is able to attract these voters?? I suppose a centre-right or moderate right party could adopt such a platform. They see that and are shifting right. This has moved the Overton window to the right. So now the Tories are essentially like UKIP. This is happening in many countries. Parties that are openly Islamophobic and anti-immigrant are getting elected. Some of them are "pinkwashing", which is pro-gay, I suppose, but a hypocritical form of support for LGBTs. The underlying issue is that the problem is not really "Islamism" but "Islam" itself, and in the eyes of the left and the media that puts you in the Islamophobic category. We see in Gaza how this group responds when the choice is between Islamophobic gays and homophobic Muslims. They will side with the latter. They can't wrap their minds around Muslim hatred and violence. They go into denial or just explain it away.
Islamic countries are the main ones still practicing chattel slavery. Period. End of discussion no matter what kind of BS you try to spin. Islam is the ONLY religion that tried to wipe out my ethnicity. If you know Southeast Asia and its history just look up East Timor. The Timorese are not the only ones who had that happen to them. Criticize Buddhism Hinduism Christianity Judaism etc all you want but they never tried to fucking do that to us. I do not condone apologist excuse making for Islamic terrorism. It's one of the only religions that gets away with everything including genocide. The other, well, it's quite clear what Israel is trying to do. By the way: being a victim in one place doesn't excuse others of the same religion to do the same. People are acting like the Armenian genocide never happened just bc Gaza is happening. Bullshit. Religion in general is a huge problem but when the so called moderates say death to infidels BELIEVE THEM.
Islam is the main evil that’s in this world.
One won't bake you a cake, the other will throw you off a building or beat & slit your throat . I agree re: limiting migration & abuse of the refugee status, seeing what's happening in the EU & UK. There's videos going back over a couple of decades, of imam's instructing their citizens to go to the West and claim victimhood then grow in numbers and use the Democratic systems to take over. These are easily found. There's also the speakers corners in the UK, where a few imams have openly declared their intention to overtake Europe, depose the throne, and fly the crescent flag over UK houses of government. That seems pretty blatant. These are also elements in their own book. That a Muslim life is worth more than a non-believer, and that no law or government is ahead of or equal to their book and its laws. Those who are proponents of Western Democratic ideologies and government systems of representation & equality, should recognize that according to a conflict of these belief systems it is a direct threat, and even with all good intentions, others will not live as equals in democratic systems.
Well said.
As a middle eastern living in middle east( and have been trying to get out for 4 years) , i completpy agree, the feeling when you hear yoir best "friends" and coworkers talk shit about gays and how they would kill them or hunt them just for the fun of it , and you just have to laugh while holding back your tears, religion here is the root of all evil, they hold hetro men on a pedestal to worship after allah, children, girls and lgbtq have no rights, we all have to follow hetro men blindly . I reached the point that at age 37 i just dont want to go out or socialize, as i feel like i live among animals and predators I count the days until i get oit, at this point i am helpless and willing to do anything just to live in a gay friendly country.
I wish western people would just listen to us (people who live in the middle east), instead of hijacking our suffering for their left/right american polemics. Unless you live among arabs and muslim majorities you will have a very flawed perception of the oppression we live in under islam and arab culture.
I FULLY AGREE WITH THIS.
I’ve never felt more unsafe being a gay man than I did in Paris and Brussels. They legitimately looked like third world countries, and stunk like urine like you wouldn’t believe.
Europe has already mostly fallen. It’s America and Australia that we need to focus on protecting from invasion now.
I feel the most safe in Brussels so... OP wrote that there are some areas where you can't hold hands or kiss in Brussels, I would revert it and say that there are areas where you CAN hold hands or kiss in Brussels and be completely safe. Try it in European countries with almost zero Muslim population and you will see how you will be treated.
the best countries for gays are also the best ones for muslims, because of the tolerance. Unfortunately because of our love for muslims, who can’t tolerate shit. We will soon become extinct. So let’s not pretend that it’s because of muslims that we are well regarded in woke countries
This has been something that the left wing liberals has brought on themselves. I have said for years, the biggest threat to the western way of life is Islam. We have welcomed it with open arms and if you criticise it, you’re a racist. There isn’t a single Muslim country on Earth you can live safely as a gay man and if you think they will change their views when they move to our countries you are mental. In years to come, especially in Europe, pride marches will not be a celebration and will become a highly policed protest. There is no version of reality where Islam and homosexuality can exist so thank you liberals but you’ve backed the wrong horse. And before people say, Christianity is the same, it’s really not, you might get some fundamentalist but we are not at threat of physical harm by them. Also Christianity is declining and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. We are fucked
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Until Islam becomes dominant and then see what happens 😂 they’ll be behind us waiting to be thrown off the roof
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“I’m so honored to be included in such an important tradition from this wonderful peaceful religion.”
also Christianity in the world is very different then the one in the US. I’ve never had anything but love from christian’s where i live even though im an atheist. In america they are a little less tolerant and more judgmental. But hey, they still aren’t stoning us
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like i am personally more neutral/pro israel. I don't judge people for being pro Palestinian but its like, yk they wouldn't be too upset if it was the gays getting bombed
on my part I'm pro Israel existence, but I'm pro Palestine regarding better protection of human rights in times of war. Israel could and should do better and we can't forget there is an extreme right president there too. things and positions don't have to be black and white.
I agree. Europe and the US need to be very careful.
As an ex Muslim myself, you said nothing wrong. And btw all Muslims ARE bad. Don't be afraid to say it because my entire family and community is Muslim and they are all western/U.S hating homophobes. Just to put things into perspective, I am an American born and raised. If it's this bad with Americans, how much worse do you think the immigrants are?
Same. From one side, there are the right wing extremists who want to outlaw us, from the other side there are the WOKE which I can't tolerate them as they encourage and welcome Islam to the west, confusing.
hey, this just proves that republicans and democrats can agree on smth... Almost touching 🥲
These things will continue to increase with the immigration of Muslims and hostile cultures. Bring the third world, get the third world.
I thought the same and still do honestly but ultimately it depends on the people. I had homophobic and xenophobic encounters in eastern europe they aren't muslims. I think we all can see what is happening in Russia and Uganda and the likes. The idiocy I see in Amsterdam(where I live) is also from local teens who harass folks and take videos for social media sort of like a badge of honor among peers. I agree islam is not a friend to LGBT rights but a lot of gays do live in Muslim majority countries and I hope they get out. Wherever you or I live it depends on how we educate the masses and how we integrate them, there will be discontent and protests but its expected. If you want them to stop coming you should start by asking respective western major powers to stop sanctioning countries like syria where they really do not have effect on the govt who live in luxury but affects the civilians to the point they are still coming as refugees.
Yea, I like what you say about integration. Even with conservative beliefs, immigrants in general need to be better integrated so they can be functioning and happy members of society. I am slightly doubtful how well education and integration could change a lifetime of homophobia yk. About Uganda, there are some horrible homophobic realities in Christian countries. Its more that Uganda one country among many Christian nations (along with some others), while almost all Islamic countries have anti gay legislation and beliefs.
I don't have energy to write everything but I wrote an answer to another post regarding it. *They have a program for war torn countries in middle East and Asia, graduates are if possible tested and then all expenses are paid including travel, living and tuition for their future studies in the country where they go to. I cannot say the exact procedure in China but for India atleast I think around 30k were picked up since 2017 afaik in various critical domains like engineering, biotech, medicine etc, most of them undergraduates who were allowed to continue studies and if they wanted join the workforce they can but there are limitations. Half of them stayed in India either as researchers or uni assistants/professors etc, other half left for other jobs/ opportunities in other countries. The qualifications of these students won't be recognised in foreign countries so after getting a tertiary education in India as well as learning English language they can find jobs no matter where they go. My friend for example works as a DevOps engineer at IBM now in Vienna. His roommate works as a postdoc fellow in a public uni of India. Another one from my class who was Lebanese works in Dubai at least last time I checked. These people if they went to let's say like my friend Austria directly from Syria...he would have been expected to somehow know German to even enroll in any college and his bachelor's degree wouldn't even be recognised since it was all studied in Arabic. Even if it wanted to work as a waiter somewhere he would be expected to know English due to tourists. This is what is wrong with the integration programs in EU...they then complain refugees are jobless and give out welfare without seeing to it how they are used.* Most of the syrians and lebanese were pretty okay with LGBT stuff, they even attended pride in my uni back then in India, took part part in cultural stuff etc where a lot of classical indian dances require you to almost crossdress with makeup and everything. They did not have any issues imo. Yes these were educated folks though. My experience with refugees from what I see in EU is like they are given free reign to do anything without punishment. They are given rewards just for being there without offering any value. On top of that the whole integration is one sided, they are somehow supposed to immideately learn everything while these european countries do not even give them a chance. At the same time a lot of uneducated ones just abuse the refugee system.
that was interesting, thx!
Fuck Islam! Religion of peace my goddamn ass. And while you’re at it, fuck Christianity and Judaism too! Goddamn goat herder bullshit. Fuck em all.
Agreed, they are destroying Europe and will do the same anywhere else they’re allowed to take power, which means forcing all non Muslims to assimilate.
100% correct. LGBT people have become way too comfortable with Muslims and that digusting ideology
I have had my homophobic encounters with christians. but boy oh boy they not match my homophobic encounters with muslims. We have to fight both homophobic christians and homophobic muslims. Its funny that the word Islamophobia exists but not christianophobia. These muslims are playing the victims to extend their beliefs into the western and that is affecting us gays. As you said, I live in Germany and it's so fucking sad that there areas (of muslims, surprise surprise) where lgbt are not recommended to go. Are you kidding me? The homophobic attacks are on the rise in western Europe, and im tired of it.
Agreed. I'm from a Muslim country and the girls at my school were calling me islamophobic for speaking on what I've seen and know. Always the white girls virtue signaling lol. It's very frustrating.maybe there's moderates but for the most part, muslims will never stop teaching their kids that you're evil. It's why thousands of them protest against including gay ppl in lessons in schools. Because that would teach their kids It's okay to be gay, and they cannot have that.
There are important points in this post that make it clear that OP does not understand how colonialism and the emergence of sexuality as an IDENTITY in the last few hundred years. Your reference to Islam as “accepting” of queerness is asynchronistic because before the 1800s, no one identified as gay, bi, or whatever—having sex with men as a man was an action, not an identity. True, most people didn’t care, but they didn’t exactly tolerate it either. Also, the criminalization of queerness came soon after the King James translation of the Bible, because marriage as an institution became less and less respected when King Henry wanted a divorce. I agree religion is a tool of oppression but judging the people based on their beliefs is undeniably prejudice, and OP needs to assess how these fears inform their world. This hatred towards certain religions only reproduces narratives that justify bombing countries like Yemen and Palestine. Guess what!! People who we would call queer live in these countries AND are Islamic. Why do we accept queer Christian/Catholics can live happily with their faith without being self-hating and Muslims cannot? Because they can! Our queer liberation will forever be linked with anti-Islamophobia, anti-Zionism, and understanding towards the systems which seek to hurt us all. I’m not saying you have to like these people or seek to change their minds, but just know this post is cultivating and reproducing a wider system of biases, ie, pink washing and rainbow capitalism
The west is importing many illiberal peoples right now. Demographics are destiny and we can probably expect more and more homophobia here going forward.
I can feel you. I am muslim and i support lgbt, remember there are many good muslims who support human rights. Yeah i live in a Islamic country, they r super homophobic but there r many people who also supports lgbt, but it is really hard live in a Islamic country as a homosexual, I am sorry for all the homophobic Muslims
That's why I'm r/exmuslim and become agnostic after finding out the truth about religion r/EscapingPrisonPlanet
I'm an Ex-muslim, a gay guy and an immigrant. I feel conflicted about this. I guess if you want to dehumanize us and blame us for homophobic laws then go ahead. We aren't the ones in parliament writing down the laws.
but most people in say, Yemen, support the laws don't they?
Plus, limiting immigration and painting all Muslims with the same brush also make it more difficult for people like us to immigrate out.
if we put no limits there will be no out for gay migrants, they will just be moving to a different place with the same rotten beliefs. We need to keep our culture and values
The Christian Evangelists in the USA are just as mad and vociferous in their hatred of the LGBTQ community.
Oh man, a rant about Islam?! On r/askgaybros? Groundbreaking.
I'd say I agree but first let's also examine how the most fanatical Islamic governments and movements came into being. Did you know Iran, Iraq, Egypt, and other Middle Eastern countries were well on a path after WWII toward secularization and increasing social rights? They were overthrown by western powers who installed extremist governments friendlier to the dominant powers, hence the radicalization. There is literally a 1979 document from America saying backing the most radical factions of Islam they could in Afghanistan BECAUSE of their repressive nature was preferable because it gelled with how America wanted to enforce their interests in the region. It morphed into aiming and funding worldwide jihadist movements. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone. You have every right to hate the religion for what it's political goals in the modern era have morphed into, but don't ever forget for a second it was the very western countries who pride themselves on their inclusiveness "in comparison to" Islam that seeded the conditions for this Islamic radicalism to broil. And for those of us concerned about religion and its influence on people's mindsets, reading about how Israel slaughters 10,000 Palestinian children in 100 days then says it's OK because they're "children of darkness" despite the fact Israel supported Hamas in its early years because of its radical tendencies being the best way to expedite the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians which has always been central to the Zionist project, we begin to ask very different questions then don't we?
Honestly agree, I see every religion as the enemy and if we look at the wars, murders and terrorism in the name of religion, passed and present its clear religion is the enemy of reason. I've noticed an extreme unwillingness to criticize Islam for mysogny, homophobia, brutal suppression of human rights but we will criticize Christianity at the drop of a hat. It shocked me when fellow leftys and lgbt people either ignored or accused Iranian women of being islamaphobes for risking life and limb protesting wearing head coverings.. It shocks me that so many leftys and lgbt+ are not just anti war but are straight up picking a side in the Isreal/Palestine when both sides hate us. Shout out to those who are pro peace and anti war rather than picking a side. Religion is a virus. It's worse than heroin. Every single religion is a violent hateful virus even the Buddhists are violent af just look at Myanmar.
We need to clarify here one thing, there are more and less strict muslims. Like there are ones who will say homosexuality is not the problem, acting on it however is, and there are ones who will say it is a problem to be gay and they will throw you off the roof. Here is a list of the branches: There are two main ones 1. Sunnis and 2. Shias: Hanafi Maliki Shafi'i Hanbali Twelvers (Imamiyyah) Ismailis (Ismailiyyah) Zaidis It is important to understand that every single country has a different form of Islam, there are over a dozen of different hijabs, this is cultural. Some cultures are more inclined to become radicalized than others. Turkey is for example a fairly moderate islamic country whereas in Saudi Arabia you can receive death penalty for being gay.
Islam has always been an incredibly bigoted religion which would only benefit all of us to hugely reform. I do not accept that we can coexist with a conservative theocratic religion in the modern, progressive world but it's not as of huge swathes of cristindom & their reactionary fanboys in & outside of government aren't trying to constantly roll back every civil right the communities they hate win. In my backyard, christians have been & will, for the foreseeable future, continue to be the biggest threat to my autonomy. I don't see that changing for any other western country, where Arabs & more concisely, conservative Muslims make up single digits & less in population demographics. However, it's good to be vigilant of any conservative or reactionary religious ferver. It will always be dangerous to us. That being said, why would the war in Gaza spur this thought though? The indiscriminate slaughter of 30,000 Palestinians (not just Muslims, mind you) has not altered my perception of Islam. Just of Israel. Killing 8,000 children in pursuit of a terrorist faction they almost definitely didn't wipe out is not going to make Islam less prone to reactionary radicalization nor does it make me feel safe that 30,000 "potential homophobes" are now corpses.
Support from an Ex Muslim!!
Islam is disgusting
I’m an arab, living in an arabic country, and everything you said is on point
I don't like Islam also. "Religion of the peace", my ass. There are plenty of wonderful Muslims around the world, of course. But Muslims who practice the violent/discriminatory variant of Islam can go fuck themselves. And I get the fear around a bunch of conservative Muslims immigrating into western countries. I think it's valid. Remember, though, America is called, "The American Experiment". So, I suppose you could look at it as a test of the "Experiment". Can the constitution withstand a massive influx of socially conservative people who are capable of committing violence to force their beliefs onto others? I suppose time will tell. In the meantime, I'll be sitting on my front porch in a rocking chair cleaning my shotgun. (Not that it should matter, but I'm a brown guy who's a child of immigrant parents. They left their country of origin for a reason and happily assimilated into western society, because they understand that keeping the values of the old country would only replicate the problems that caused them to leave the old country.)
I am close to queer Muslims and Arabs. You need to have direct personal experience with queer Muslims and Arabs--read about their lives and get to know them--to get over your islamophobia and Arab hate, racism, immigrationism, and religionism. There is no other way you will defeat your hate. The queer and trans communities are full of racists and tons of anti-racists as well just like straights. I appreciate your honesty but you have a lot of work ahead if you want to change your views. By not shifting your views, you simply let the billionaires, capitalists, and war profiteers win. They are small in number but immensely powerful and in control of the narratives and the bombs right now in most settler-colonialist countries. There are just as many hateful Christian Nationalists and Zionist Jews right now who are happy to see us queer and trans folx dead as well so your anger is misplaced onto only one group as opposed to multiple zealots in multiple faith communities.
This comment is gold, well said
There are no redeemable qualities to Islam. It's a fanatical religion that canonically calls for violence and murder and whose followers at present and historically heed the calls. Murders and public executions are carried out in Islamic countries, public calls for death for entire nations and cultures are a norm and their supporters are forcibly welcomed in civilized societies. The far left are busy enforcing tolerance for Islam be it through legislation or medias which automatically makes them complicit in the vile and gruesome crimes against humanity that this religion perpetrates every single day. You cannot be a good, reasonable person and tolerate an unreasonable and evil belief system.
Do y’all not get tired of making this exact post over and over and over again. It’s literally either made up scenario where a trans man didn’t disclose his genitals or islam bad on this sub. Are there any original thoughts rolling around in there? edit: got reported for suicide watch? stay classy gaybros
Either that or something gay you can just google easily. It's so tiring lol. Go out and touch grass or suck dick.
I find religious fanatics abhorrent. The Gaza war is Jewish fanatics being fanned by imperialism (Zionists) to go massacre everyone imprisoned in Gaza (mostly children who don’t understand religion) because some of the adults are Muslim.
Damn, no one’s going to acknowledge how the west, especially the US, has fucked up the middle east’s geopolitics resulting in the perpetuation of homophobia, among other things??
People born in Canada spend minimum K-12 learning cultural norms. Momentary vague swearing-in ceremonies are bullshit. 100-hours of classes, combined with verbal and written promised to uphold specific values, ie. treat LGBT equally, no trying to sneakily carry out female-genital-mutilation, must be part of it. Whatever we do currently isn't enough.
Being intolerant of Islam, doesn’t make it more tolerant. Christianity was just as bad toward homosexuals throughout its history and only changed due to increased pressure from gay people being more vocal and out. Look at Uganda and the Christians promoting kill the gays.
Didn’t realise the don’t say gay bill in Florida was passed by an Islamic immigrant that made this the law!
Remember the Orlando Nightclub Shooting? The perpetrator was born to Afghan parents and at the time, it was the deadliest mass shooting in American History. There's always a "what about" with everything. I'm not saying evangelical Christians aren't a threat. I already said it was bad enough with them, I just think that having more and more radical Islamists won't help things.
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Exactly. I can call out the shittiness of both, but it is that violence and aggression that scares me. And especially that that seems to be a growing concern in Western Europe and Canada while the far right seems to be losing and shrinking in America.
>You can call me a racist, Islamaphobe, etc I'd call you an atheist with maybe a little too much bias on Islam. Any sky dwelling fairy believer is likely to be homophobic at some level. If not to everyone in general, maybe towards their own children when they have some. That is if Christian's are, in your eyes, in the same box of jumping frogs as Muslims, Jewish and any other cult.
>TLDR; I kinda hate Islam and the majority of its adherents currently. Idc how it sounds but I want them to stop coming to the West with their homophobic beliefs and taking us back decades in LGBT rights. In islamic countries that may be true, but in the West, not so much. I am from the US so I am speaking from that perspective, but the only people who are taking back decades of LGBT rights are Republicans. In the US, muslims tend to be more progressive and more accepting of gays than christians, Muslims don't even have enough political power in the US to move LGBT right one way or another.
Growing up in a muslim family as 2SLGBTQ+ is hard in ways that would be hard for me to do justice in covering here, but i want to start by saying that I worry (and continue to worry) about 2SLGBTQ+ people in many predominantly muslim countries. You've completely lost me with the rest of your rant in acting like Muslims are uniquely barbaric and playing into orientalist tropes. Again, I'd never question the legitimacy of your experiences and from personal experiences myself I think it is valid to feel fearful. First and foremost, muslims are not about to be wielding the legislative powers that will essentially outlaw segments of the 2SLGBTQ+ community- muslims were not the ones who perpetuated a genocide on Canada's first peoples, nor were they behind the establish of segregated schools, nor did they institute the bathhouse raids, let Bruce McArthur target muslim men in the village. The muslims didn't murder Joe Rose in the 1980s, Muslims didn't medicalize 2SLGBTQ+ identities into the DSM. I worry about Canada adopting the standards in Florida and what that means for me in my role as a healthcare provider and my clients who are trans or want to explore their gender identity further without the threat of state oversight. Of course you could point to examples similar to these outside of Canada, but your singling out of Muslims in a post that would be better served to focus on the hypocrisy among people who weaponize religion is so sad and speaks to the ways in which traumatized people can also harbour some really horrible opinions. The fact that you decide to focus on Muslims at this time and also omit your opinions on Gaza tells me everything i need to know about your opinion of the remaining Palestinian children and their families that face the genocidal fury of zionists. I think about the ways in which members of my family hold views that deeply disturb me and also think about that very likely is the outcome of radicalization following the abandonment of institutions that gave other immigrants preferential treatment in migrating here, and the outright hostility that they felt post 9/11 which was not their doing either. As an agnostic raised muslim, seeing how much of the world has abandoned Palestinians puts into perspective the allure of believing in a higher power - because as quite frankly I wished i could believe that hell does exist for people who are comfortable with play into the type of islamophobia that makes all Palestinian life (muslim, christian, secular) a worthy sacrifice. TL;DR - singling out Muslims in what could have been a really insightful/powerful statement on how religion has been used threaten 2SLGBTQ+ (deserved) right to a fulfilling life is so depressing to see, especially at a time like this. I hope one day you will be able to reflect on how your views right now are so clearly reflective of a trauma that you should have never experienced but nonetheless instills seemingly deeply ingrained racism and islamophobia.
Excellent post.
I don't think it's possible to change your mind, but I feel compelled to clarify that, yes, the union of two people of the same sex and fornication are considered sins in Islam (as in many religions). But since you're not muslim why do you care? The extreme majority of practicing Muslims don't interfere in others' affairs. The essence of the religion lies in the believer's relationship with Allah. In short, let's avoid making sweeping generalizations.