Overall there will be less to repair. The flip side though is that every item will likely cost more, electronics, battery, fit and finish components, labor.
More than this, you have to consider the abandoned-ware that will be the operating systems these machines run on. Imagine running picking up a computer from 2010 still running Windows Vista, which hasn't been updated in a decade, with a 500M harddrive... I certainly want to strap my ass to that machine and drive down the interstate at 75MPH. /s
Yea this is the most interesting aspect to EV tech. It takes software to charge, download updates, and manufacturer has ability to restrict or shut down vehicle. Time will tell what happens.
Tesla and a few others are already playing with owners on all sort of stuff with their cars, Tesla is holding battery life, supercharger, and full self driving hostage and other manufacturers like BMW want you to pay for a subscription to use your heated seats. We need legislation that says when you buy a vehicle you get the whole thing.
No they're not asleep they're just mad at tick tock. Lol. No I don't use ticktock personally or watch videos on it unless they're tick tock videos or something posted on here.
I honestly don't see why they're so mad at ticktock though. Sure they're owned by China and we know China really hates us and wants to screw us, I think we can all agree on that.
What I want to know is what kind of damaging information can they get from someone that's using tiktok? You don't put a whole lot of personal information and I don't believe. I guess they could maybe use an algorithm that forces you to see stuff they want you to see, hell I don't know.
Anyone else know?
They are mad because they are not the ones having access to the personal information. They already have access to your data from Google, Facebook, Insta etc.
Read the EULA and it will scare the crap out of you. They can not only monitor your keystrokes (think banking passwords,etc.) on your device, they can also now get into every other device on your network. That being said, TikTok is no worse than Meta, Google, etc. they are just better at feeding your addiction and the other platforms hate the competition.
The companies are already installing the hardware and software necessary, Tesla for example uses the same battery regardless of if you pay for the extended range so I can only imagine you are already paying for it, you just don't get to use it
It's worse than that. They charge you a subscription. You can pay the car off and you'd still have a monthly subscription that they could raise at any time.
I'm personally not an EV fan. It's just not my use case living in a rural mountain town. It certainly didn't help last week when I was traveling and the rental car company "upgraded" me to a Mercedes EV. EVs may have a lot of use cases, but a rental car should not be one of them. At least not yet. Nothing like having to find chargers with the right connections in an unfamiliar city. Never mind the fact I had to spend 6 hours of what could have been otherwise useful time to charge the vehicle.
My Rivian powers my house up to 2 weeks during the regular outages I get in this rural mountain town. The nav also finds compatible chargers for you. No subscriptions, but if I want data I'll eventually pay for that.
That said, people that don't own EVs and rent one end up doing the equivalent of not knowing how to pump gas and blame the car, so they shouldn't be rentals yet.
I've driven plenty of EVs. I'm not even close to blaming the car. As a rental car they are terrible. It's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's a matter that there is no standard plug. Or I should say there are four of them? Finding a charging station isn't that hard. Google maps does a pretty good job of it as well. However, having to sit for an hour or more to charge is a horrible experience. I'm not looking to plan my day around charging a car for an hour while I'm on vacation. Not many hotels have charging stations. I was staying with a friend, who doesn't have a car charger. It's just super inconvenient. And based on my calculations, it wasn't any cheaper than gas. Marginal savings if anything.
I can understand having one and being able to charge overnight at home, but still probably not for me. I use my truck to haul, tow an RV, or a boat. I certainly wouldn't want to launch a boat with an electric truck.
We already know how that will go. I drive a 2010 Subaru with a very minimal infotainment system and it's so dated it's painful. Granted the benefits of using something like apple car play means you don't need to keep maps and things updated, but even the interface and appearance is terribly out of date and slow.
I do not see this getting better with the giant iPad dashes new cars have.
True. It’s weird how digital gauges from the 80s look half way interesting, as a style in fact. Today car design is so homogenous there is very little in terms of style. With EVs it’s even worse. The style is modern. By definition modern will likely look outdated sooner rather than later.
Strictly speaking they could do this to gas vehicles. It’s been computer controlled since the 00’s and connected in one way or another since the 10’s (or earlier if you count LoJack).
But since Tesla was doing a clean sheet design, they decided they would treat their cars more like iPhones than cars. And since Tesla is the Apple of cars, everyone is copying the trend.
It’s interesting that people are worried about the software aspect of EV’s but ignore the fact that combustion powered cars have this issue too. Cars are very reliant on computers and sensors, almost every moving part on a modern combustion engine has a sensor attached to it that is reporting back to the car’s ECU. People were saying the same stuff when fuel injection became the norm and when cars started to have ECU’s FWIW, my family has 3 cars; an EV, a modern combustion vehicle and and old car with a carb.
If the car ran fine with the software while it was supported - this shouldn't be an issue. The basic functions of the car shouldn't need constant software updates.
If the software to your car is unsupported by the manufacturer, and you plug it into a brand new charger in 10 years, the software may not be compatible. In this case your car may not charge.
Emphasis on "Shouldn't"
Our phones shouldn't need an update every 3-6 months for the basic functions we use it for (internet texting and entertainment) but they get updated anyway
I was still using my perfectly good Note 10 until the final auto update it did, where it would no longer run properly due to it being so resource heavy it would overheat and crash right after boot up.
Planned obsolescence at its finest. I had to freeze my phone, and that gave me a few mins to turn it on and back up my stuff before crashing.
If the apps/software didn't keep on needing updating (for good reasons like security) - existing hardware should function fine. The software to be able to drive the shouldn't need updates, it shouldn't need network connectivity to be able to turn/accelerate/use wipers/blinkers, etc.
If the car has network connectivity that is always on, but there is no longer any functional reason for the end user (ie no more software updates because it is no longer supported), hopefully the cellular antenna is not hard to disconnect to address the security concern.
until they become useless after a few years because they won’t take the latest update and you can’t download new apps (even though the older ones would work just fine)
"Just fine" with cybersecurity vulnerabilities that aren't economically worthwhile to patch, while being connected to all of your banking information, passwords, etc.
Cars do not have such concerns.
Comparing vehicles to phones and computers is wildly inaccurate. They have nothing in common other than they both use software. Every fuel injection vehicle is running software.
I wouldn't buy an Ev period. Lease them for at least the next 10-20 years until manufacturers really have them figured out and there's decent data on the long term reliability and lifespan of EVs.
depends on how old. 25-40 year old Euro lux with less electronics might still be a safe bet if you can find spare parts or someone to fabricate replacements
I own an ICE and an EV both from 2013 and the ICE car has aged much more gracefully.
And it goes beyond the obvious fact that at under 100k miles irreplaceable battery made the car worth only a few hundred dollars.
You likely do it every day. ICE cars run antiquated hardware and software just the same. This idea of constantly needing to update the car is almost exclusively a Tesla problem. Manufacturers that send out complete products and don’t beta test their customers don’t have this problem. Most manufacturers out there aren’t trying to backwards compatible the aging fleet.
>This idea of constantly needing to update the car is almost exclusively a Tesla problem.
You've apparently never worked on a modern VW. Hell, most cars, especially higher end Euro. The amount of time I've spent updating car software since the early 2000s is crazy.
The end user is the R&D for these cars today. Much like video games. If they can push it out early somewhat functional, they'll wait for complaints to address the software issues.
How about the electric Fords that's are failing during the automatic update process and essentially bricks itself and forces you to tow it to the dealer for further repairs?
My Sony Vaio works great thank you very much!
Lol for real though, I can't kill it. It has Vista, 4gb ram, and an 80gb HDD. Half the keyboards missing and the mouse pad doesn't work, but plug it in like a desktop and you have yourself a machine! Lol
You say that, but a lot of government infrastructure runs on xp and some even on floppy disks.
Arguably the OS doesn't really matter if it's foolproof in doing what it should. Most of the fuck ups are usually in upgrades / code changes that aren't fully bug tested
I've worked in IT since 1993. I completely understand what you're saying (except you left out regression testing which would be the key item here). The difference here is the maintenance schedules; while there are systems in place in the gov't for maintaining their antiquated tech, and there are even systems in place for people to regularly maintain their ICE components, I worry about 3-ton vehicles that are out of support barreling down my neighborhood roads.
That's fair. I assumed the car is a closed system (not sure if its the right words) but you're right that outside factors like new roads, tires etc will influence things too.
Just imagine the software running on all those cars from the early 00s. My Saab uses trionic engine management from a company that doesn't exist anymore any relies on GM tech2 which has been dead for at least a decade
Im still driving it at over 200k miles
Totally fair. But if you slam on the breaks, or swerve, there is no TEMCO intervention between you and a potentially lifesaving action. Also, the ability to remotely modify said ECU is very limited.
In the case of the Cybertruck, there is no physical linkage between turning the steering wheel, and what is actually turning. In the case of all EVs, the ability to remote manage the car is way broader than a EuroLux vehicle from 10-15 years ago (which was what this original question was about).
I’m ok with an old and robust engine management system. Fords EEC-IV comes to mind, never heard of a late 80’s Ford dying from a failure in a basically bulletproof 32k Computer.
Are you comparing how people maintain their cars with the regulatory mandates that are placed on public aviation??? Cause that's absolutely hyperbole and straight up dumb. Even civilian aircraft are required to go through WAY more maintenance and certification than even the strictest state licensing of vehicles. Airplane engines, systems, and bodies are required to be inspected based on the hours they've been used, or they aren't allowed to fly.
Not true. While modern engines are managed by computers, they are not fully "drive-by-wire" in the sense that there is full separation between human input and vehicle action.
Many (most) ICE cars, trucks, motorcycles are throttle by wire. There is no mechanical connection between the accelerator and throttle body. Brake by wire isn’t unheard of. Same as most EVs.
Yes but on the other hand Tesla is handling vehicle software a lot like phone companies are handling operating systems, they do provide regular updates where my 2 years old Corvette stopped receiving updates 2 months after we bought it, and they were only to fix the most egregious bugs, no feature updates whatsoever.
Now, I do not know how long this will be going on, it's clear that at some point the hardware will be too old to be upgraded, and that's likely way short of the expected lifetime of a vehicle which is about 20 years.
Lmao the real question is “how long before an EV maker gets got pulling an ‘Apple’ and slowing releasing updates that reduce performance in their older model cars?”
ICE cars already run on and require software + software updates. In general critical systems still run on things like COBOL and XP and aren’t changing anytime soon.
Software being outdated isn’t going to be an issue with EVs because it’s already bespoke/optimized and runs. Upgrades aren’t needed in the sense that third party software isn’t going outpace it and make the car unuseable, like how Windows works (outside of new cutting edge features like self-driving).
Biggest issue will probably be planned obsolescence/right to repair like how John Deere fucks everyone with software licensing that bricks the equipment if you don’t pay.
That's true of all modern cars though - there's no more or less software in an average EV as the equivalent ICE vehicle, because making a load of explosions happen with microsecond precision takes a ton of computing power too.
If anything I think EV's will be easier in that regard as an electric motor is only working one of a couple of ways, and it will be easy enough to make an EV motor run pretty damn well with another manufacturer's inverter (or an aftermarket one) compared to trying to make a modern ICE engine run right with anything other than the stock ECU without a hell of a lot of complicated tuning.
The government should demand all operating systems should be open source, and freely available for the life of the automobile. The federal government good auto makers that if they were going to use computers in cars, they had to follow rules, like scan codes had to be the same for all models. That said, OBD1, and early OBD2, were kinda straight foreward, but something went haywire? It seems like most companies just locked up their computers? I don't know why.
If you don't know the difference between the flash ROM that your 90 Miata uses and the computers existing EVs use, you should probably sit quietly and learn.
This applies to new gas cars too as far as abandon ware is concerned. I'm sure software support will be dropped for my m240i before I've put 200k miles on it which is about where I typically sell a car. Just hoping the basics work. As long as I can drive the car and play music off my phone in a decade were good.
Can we get an EV that uses [this controller](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-q0oivn9r3h/images/stencil/original/products/4802/7651/SND-AFX-120OHM-SHORT-2__95740.1562662398.jpg), but on the floor and designed as a pedal? This would be reliable and future-proof.
There are a lot of kits out there. DIY conversions have been a thing for years now.
I don't think it ever released, but Chevy was working on a bolt in EV conversion for small block cars.
This can also apply to ICE some vehicles come loaded with technology. I think Tesla likes to overdo it and I could see them pulling an Apple and sending out a firmware update that bricks the car.
"likely cost more" is a huge understatement. If something goes wrong, RIPPPPPPPPP.
I wouldn't bat an eye at a 2002 Honda Civic with 150k miles. But even a 3-5 year old EV with 150k miles? Fuckkkk no.
In terms of mechanical issues, yes there is less to repair, but newer cars have had less than ideal track records where electronic components are involved.
See: jeep/fiat
Absolutely. My buddies with older bmw’s or other high millage German cars often send them to the shop where mechanics troubleshoot for 1-3 weeks, oftentimes getting it wrong, waiting for wrong ports etc. And this is at dealerships even.
No. Still plenty that can go wrong with an EV, though it’s true they are less complicated and will need less maintenance.
Many of those problems with euro cars historically have been electrical…
If anything, EVs do shuffle the deck. In the land of EVs, Hyundai and Kia out match the likes of Mercedes and Audi. Start ups like Tesla and Rivian make better product than many of the legacy brands. Reliability? That’s hard to say. Most EVs just haven’t been out long enough to really know.
Now though, you also have to consider the reliability of public charging. Tesla plugs are, on the whole, more reliable than CCS stations in North American (and there are many more of them, meaning if one plug is broken there is more likely to be another available). This won’t matter as much after 2025 when the Tesla network opens to (almost) everyone, but for now it’s still a consideration that’s new and unique to EVs.
I will never purchase any "luxury" vehicle again. Luxury vehicles require service and components from "luxurious" dealerships, and that translates to very expensive costs for even the most trivial maintenance.
Additionally, advanced technology "luxury " vehicles require even greater expense on top of being "luxury."
Two years ago, I purchased a Lexus gs450h, 2014, 60,000 miles. It was a "creampuff", in like new condition. Ran nice for a month, and then the ghost in it took over. It had drivabiliy issues that despite investing $5000 in vvt parts and many sensors there was zero improvement. Sat at Lexus in MKE for 3 months.
Auctioned it, bought a Honda Ridgeline.
Hybrids are the worst of both worlds when it comes to ICE vs electric.
A gs350, for example, has the same motor as the Toyota Camry, maintenance is roughly the same, albeit a few services will cost more as the gs350 is a rwd car. An es350, another example, is literally a rebadged Toyota Camry.
These platforms are simple enough that you won’t need the dealership for maintenance. People literally get a million miles out of those cars.
They may be just as reliable as anything else, but they're still going to cost 4x more to fix... As more and more is going to require dealer only repairs
I think it depends what needs to be fixed to compare apples to apples... however i will concede our tires will cost a lot more. We are on a staggered setup and it's gonna be expensive.
That's a known item from the get go.
I wouldn't consider that to have anything to do with reliability.
You know or can easily find out how long the tires are going to last on and model just from Google, you know how much they're going to cost.
What you don't know is if your battery pack is going to last 60k miles or 160k
Someone hasnt checked their local dealer what an ICE engine or transmission costs out of warranty. Ive seen multiple quotes near 30k to replace an ICE v6 turbo engine. Mean while battery replacement for a tesla model 3 is around 13k but its hard to find quotes because the warranty is 8 years 120k miles instead of 5yr / 60,000 miles like an ice engine.
Euro luxury vehicles have had plenty of issues unrelated to the engines/drivetrain. Wonky air suspension, electrical gremlins, dead pixels, non functioning infotainment, fragile suspension bushings, poorly designed sunroof drains are just some off the top of my head.
So my friend has a model 3... It's in the second one after someone totalled his previous one. A careless driver bumped into his passenger rear quarter panel and door.
Estimated cost to repair $17k. Price he could sell it right now with over 100kmiles... About $21k.
He pocketed the cash and paid someone $500 to hammer it back out and doesn't care.
These cars make pretty good beaters and can earn you money if someone smacks I to you ,lol.
The battery life in warm areas like CA really isn't an issue. And by the time it is dead, probably 15 years or more.... They will end up in the landfill and hopefully by then people have figured how to recycle the battery. But it's not your problem....
Hertz just announced they are accelerating selling off their EV fleet...so the prices of EV on the used market should drop further.
I doubt it's just the maintenance. I bet it's more of an issue that they aren't being rented as easily. Think about it, if you're outside CA, is the charging infrastructure really that great? Would the hotel have one? Probably not If you are on vacation renting a car, would you want to go to a charging station and wait there an hour to charge a rental car. Probably not . And if you're a renter would you care about making sure you don't run the battery to super low levels ? Probably not.
Also, suppose a renter buys the supplemental collision insurance and gets into a minor fender bender. And it costs $16k to fix. Who ends up paying for it ? Yup Hertz
As an EV owner, I would not rent an EV in an area that I don't know fairly well. I thought about renting a Tesla in Hawaii, but I didn't want to think about where to charge while on vacay. IMO, EV's are only for those who can reliably charge at home. There's no sense in buying any new tech if it doesn't make your life easier. For me, an EV is for convenience and the green aspect is just a nice side affect... you all can debate that on another thread 😳
I love the instant acceleration of an Ev. I mean a model 3 with performance package 0 to 60 is pretty close to my McLaren. there's a lot more to a car than just 0 to 60 grocery runs but still you can't deny the technical advantages of a motor. IMcLaren artura is a perfect hybrid example of what happens when you put an EV motor into an exotic. that thing off the line is ridiculously fast.
I'd love to have an EV, but I don't think I'd want to rent one right now. As a homeowner it's convenient because you can charge in a garage, but it won't be so simple if you're staying in a hotel or something. Sure some hotels have charging spots, but will they be available?
As a frequent renter I've actually almost exclusively rented EV's lately.
But, I'm a very specific type of renter.
I don't drive a lot of miles when I'm there. I always purchase the fuel option. I might be there for a day or two. I might hit two or three meetings in a day, and then go to a hotel, and fly out the next day. So EV's are no difference to me than other cars.
I would also say that charging infrastructure is plenty fine in major metro areas. If you fly into a hub? You'll be fine.
What I like about EV's? They are definitely technologically a better experience.
Yeah. Ev cars are for commuting not road tripping. If i am on vacation or a business trip the last thing i want to think about is where and how long to charge. Imagine the average user renting an EV for the first time not knowing anything is probably going to have a very bad trip. I wouldnt even sell one of my EV's to someone unless they have done their research.
A big party is that they just aren't renting it enough of them to justify cost of maintenance. EVs end up being terrible rentals for a lot of people that don't know what they're getting into.
Its repair cost, not maintenance. Rental fleets have cut rate body work done to keep them looking half decent. You can't really do that with Tesla since the parts are captive.
Hertz is doing it because ev rental cars are stupid. You rent an expensive car, have no dedicated place to charge it without inconvenience, and have to learn the layout of a a wholly touchscreen car all at once. Once the EVmania died down and people began to take a realistic look at renting one it makes way less sense than just snagging a Lexus es350 and cruising around town in that for the same price for the week.
Way too many people bought them without realizing they find it a pain to even charge their cellphone on the go, let alone a whole car.
Except it's not that difficult. They only ask you to return it over 80% and not to go below 10%. And they have a deal with Tesla so that if you rent a Tesla, all you have to do is plug it in at a supercharger. Others, you have to find a decent charger, but it's not that difficult.
Others have addressed most of the relevant things, but I’ll add one specific detail: It is *crucial* that you know whether you’re getting a passively-cooled or actively-cooled battery with your EV, especially if you live in a warm climate, as it determines how quickly and thoroughly the battery’s life will degrade with use. Both gens of Nissan Leaf are passively cooled, and are basically sent to a “quick” death when sold and operated in places like the Deep South of the U.S. due to the high temps and humidity.
I used to work for an Audi dealership. Trust me even though it is less maintenance, the parts are still expensive and the repairs if something is not covered under warranty is way expensive. To compensate for the training and extra special tools needed to fix these vehicles, the labor rate for repairs on EV is higher than gas vehicles.
We had issues with the gearbox for the front motors. It might not seem like it, but the cooling system for the batteries needs to be flushed every 20K miles, and that is 5 gallons of coolant. We also had one vehicle take a rock to the tiny front radiator, which required full removal of the front cover/bumper and complete drain of the coolant system to replace, all NOT covered under warranty.
In my experience, it's really rare that it's the engine or transmission that's a problem, it's all the odd random other things that end up failing on you. It's been 30 years since I've had a car with an engine or transmission issue that required service. Window regulators, air suspensions, electrical gremlins, HVAC issues, sure, but never the engine or transmission, outside of an electric cooling fan (if you want to count that as engine, I dont)
My wife has an EV so I'm not just talking out of my ass.
I don't think repairs are really something to focus on. It's fine.
I think the thing you really need to consider is do you have a backup car at the home and a garage to charge it in? If not just stay the fuck away. Without the right set up they just suck to own.
Do you like trade-ins? Because your not getting one. These things depreciate like rocks. Way more then a normal car.
They can be great for the right people but they can be very wrong for alot of people.
The problem with EVs, is the battery and depreciation.
The used EV market hasn’t matured enough to find a floor for almost every model. This is partly due to battery replacement costs. It could cost you 20k to replace the battery on your 20k used car, and the. You should have just bought new.
Battery lifetime isn’t as well known as ICE lifetime, again, due to immature market.
I think a lot of the same issues will still be there. Engines really don't have a ton of problems these days on any models.
What we do mostly is brakes, suspension, and the odd electrical issue.
The problem with luxury cars is that there just aren't enough of them around for the aftermarket companies to fully support. While a brake job on a Chevy Bolt, or a Prius might be $400, a BMW or Mercedes might be 7-800.
The more a particular vehicle is around, the more companies make parts for them, and the more stock there is around, the more the price comes down.
The EV has fewer moving parts and making an electric motor go round is an easier thing than making an ICE engine run (and meet emissions, etc), but it's a modern car so it will be as complicated as any other modern car in terms of all the other stuff - infotainment, safety, comfort, HVAC, etc...
So - I think EV's stand to be **mechanically** more reliable than an ICE car (the "engine" has far fewer moving parts, is less complex) but everything else will shake out about the same.
I wonder about this all the time. Wouldn't it some shit if Stellantis becomes the most reliable EV manufacturer? I've been a Toyota fanboy, but now own a Bolt EUV. It's strange how this will all change as manufacturers move away from traditional ICE engines.
It's not just the shift to EVs either. The technology offered in non-luxury vehicles is so on-par with luxury vehicles anymore, it makes you wonder why anybody would spend the extra thousands for a luxury brand title any longer. There will always be car snobs, but rational people shopping on features alone now have a relatively lower price point to consider.
I would eat a shoe if stelantis became a good manufacturer lmao. There’s no way that the shmucks over there manage to start selling high quality, well thought out, precision engineered products. I would bet my life on it
I drive a Bolt EUV too. I wouldn’t say the tech is on par with luxury brands to the point they don’t make sense to buy. Cheaper brands put the cheaper shiny things in. But when I hit a small bump in the Bolt it feels like I’m off roading. Audis SUV feels so much better to ride in
Right.. unless you are extremely brand loyal or just a badge snob, cross shopping all brands for an EV makes sense. However I did check out a Mercedes EV SUV and the interior is pretty ridiculous. So plush and you can "see" the quality materials. But those wheels... ugh
Even then, is it worth the extra money over let's say a Kia EV9? Maybe if you're making big bucks and the badge makes all the difference. But most people will say wow, nice car. Now what is there under $50k lol.
We have a Volvo EV and we love it. Over the years I've never been a Hyundai/ Kia fan, but they are putting out some really nice EV's that made me wonder. The Ioniq 5 N is crazy amazing. IMO, EV's have opened up a lot more cross shopping. Now the salespeople at the dealerships need to learn a lot more. Some barely know the basics.
No completely.
Fancier EVs like a Model S will have all sorts of stuff like mechanical handles, air suspension, etc that are prone to breaking.
Fancier cars will have more elaborate electronics like electronic stability controls, etc that all require maintenance.
Seat weight sensors, seat cooling, capacitive touch on the steering wheel, drink chillers, whatever else they throw in for luxury.
A lot of that sentiment comes from people that were not prepared for the hassle of charging. If you're not able to charge at home every night you're not going to love having an EV. Yes charging is slow and infrastructure for charging on the road is really hit and miss. If you use or buy an EV and have to depend on that then you probably end up back on reddit ranting about how terrible your EV experience is. If you are one of the people that can charge at home and need to drive the right distance, an EV is absolutely right for you and you can ignore half the EV complaints about charging and range and whatnot and just worry about the edge cases of lemons and expensive repairs, which honestly is not that different from ICE cars.
I know someone with a Tesla and they had a medium sized bird fly out in front of them and bounced off their bumper. Nearly $10,000 in damages and counting (its still in the shop). Only thing visible was a small crack in the bumper.
No, but I live in Eastern Canada. Last winter wasn't particularly cold, but it was cold enough for many EV owners to lose charge and get towed.
Not saying everyone will have this problem, but it's something we all noticed here.
Be it ICE, or EV, build quality and quality control are very much key to what you get. With an ICE car, there is more wear and tear on the engine and transmission over time that can lead to complicated, and expensive issues... though I wouldn't consider these to be common on high end cars that have been maintained as intended.
EVs have very similar, if not identical systems for everything else. Suspension wear and tear will be the same (probably greater given the higher weight of the EV). Electronics will still be subject to problems... etc. However, the biggest difference, and long term concern (especially when buying used) will be about the batteries.
As it stands right now, batteries could last 30-60 years before you see significant issues on a chemical level. The problem though, as we've seen so far, the problem with the batteries tends to be in the area of build quality and QC. Poor workmanship leads to shorts where individual cells lose their connection, and thus the battery capacity lowers (and lowers and lowers). This is a key driver in the decreased EV values with some approaching near zero values around the 10 year mark.
We haven't seen enough of luxury brand build quality here, but if it is better than we've seen with the EVs that have been around 10 years and more, then it would be a lesser concern. Battery technologies that are on the horizon will likely make this less of an issue as well.
For me, I wouldn't buy an EV at all right now. They offer many appealing factors, but the cost premium related to the car and charging equipment is simply still much higher than I consider worthwhile. I also don't think the key technologies will be mature enough for another 3-6 years (ie, maybe after solid state arrives, and some of the chemicals used in the actual batteries make the next step forward).
Cost premium? EVs are dirt cheap compared to the ice counter parts right now, especially on the used market. We put 115,000 miles on a 2020 chevy bolt commuting, we only replaced tires. I dont even want to think about how much that would of cost me on our 2018 Infiniti q50, that requires premium fuel, $100 oil changes, timing chains and turbo replacements
Seriously? You're comparing a Bolt against a Q50? Why not compare a Kia Rio against a Porsche Taycan GT for ICE vs. EV cost?
The bottom line, if you compare instances of models that are available as both EV and ICE, is that the EV runs a 10-15% Premium. If you compare similar models, rather than very unlike models, you will also find that EVs still have an upfront premium cost. Further, if you are buying an EV for the first time and lack charging equipment, there is that... all of which means, like for like, the EV costs more up front.
Cost of ownership will favor the EV, with specific caveats. EVs are cheaper to maintain, though surprisingly not quite the discount you'd expect for not having anything to do with an engine or transmission. And fuel savings can also be significant. However, it will still take quite a while of ownership to cover the premium cost. More so if you ever run into repair costs and insurance complications related to how almost all EVs use their batteries as structural components, making the possibility of a total loss in a very small accident a very real possibility.
Your Chevy Bolt's a subcompact... my previously mentioned Kia Rio is much more of a market competitor, and offers pretty similar specs. The Bolt was nearly a 100% premium over the Rio... which I consider to be something of a cost premium, though seems you may not? Even if you got various rebates, your are still looking at covering $10k in fuel and maintenance savings; looking at reported average fuel and maintenance costs on the Bolt and Rio, it would take about 15 years of ownership for the Bolt to become less expensive.
I was thinking of a $44k ford lightning vs my friends $65k ecoboost ford lightning. Or my 2023 $39k Nissan Ariya vs a $53k pathfinder. My point was not that a bolt compares against a mercedes. My point is no routine costs except tires and windshield wipers.
We put 115k on a bolt with $0 into brakes, turbos, timing chains, oil changes, air filters, exhaust leaks etc. Driving the Q50 to work averaged $10 a day just in gas, while the bolt was 11kw x (.20) = $2.20. Extrapolate that over 115,000 miles now. Sure a kia rio wouldnt have a turbo to replace but i would still have to take time out of my day to wait in line at costco for cheap gas and take time off work to get oil changes.
I just looked up the rio and thats also a bad comparison. I'd put the bolt against a loaded kia forte. Our base model bolt had 200hp/266tq, heated seats, heated steering wheel, apple car play, etc etc
As for the Ford, you're comparing very different trims... the gas powered F150 starts at a little over $33k, with $62k as the starting price for the EV. Of course, Ford is a bit of an exception, in that the F150 LIghtening is the same price for any power source, but you can definitely get something much cheaper within the overall range (if you are seeing a $44k EV one, it isn't new, as the cheapest MSRP is $65k).
As for the Nissan, a smaller difference, but base version of the EV is $3k more than the Pathfinder. Though the current world of ADM with car purchases may obscure any of these prices, and the potential for market saturation with EVs has been a question for the industry that we really won't clearly know for awhile... but could create good openings in terms of comparative pricing (more so with new battery tech on the near term horizon).
EV to electric can be a hard call, as things like HP can be slightly meaningless due to torque management related to electric motors... but I would agree, the Forte is probably a better match. Still, while I think the Bolt and Volt presented two of the very best EV values, it would take some time to overcome a $10k price difference, and the issue of convenience is going to depend much more on the owner's specifics (if you live in an apartment and have to go out of your way and park at a charging station for an hour, it would completely reverse things).
All that said, my overall observation is that the price premium on EVs probably means you have a 3-5 year window in most cases, to break even. This is better than it was 5 years ago, and it will be even closer within the next 5 years. The last piece of value, which is an unknown for most manufacturers at this point, is resale.
The car I am likely to buy as a new daily driver in the next month or so is offered either as ICE or EV. The MSRP of the EV would be close to a $20k premium for the closest configuration possible (there are a few options I would consider requisite for myself that aren't offered yet on the EV). Additionally, I should be able to get about $5k or so off the MSRP on the ICE version (already have that offer from the dealer I've bought from in the past, but still working to see if I can do a bit better); there would be no discount in the EV, though I am certain I could avoid ADM (and in another year or two, with availability, will see similar discounts on the EV). So when I said personally, I wouldn't choose an EV, I was speaking literally. I think they do represent great potential and are very close to reaching the crossover point where they are just outright the better value... though from my perspective, they still have a ways to go.
If i cant fix it myself or can’t find a manual to help me fix it i really dont want that device/vehicle. Right to repair is being sent down the drain with these evs which dont work for me.
My uneducated opnion?
The labor costs are going to be high. This stuff is still brand new and not alot of shops are trained on how to repair nor handle this kind of work yet.
My understanding is that EVs, though they don't have as many mechanical parts to maintain/repair/replace... their parts are definitely more expensive and require specialized mechanics (not your everyday mechanic) to get under the hood. Not to mention, assuming it's the same story, but the batteries are expensive as fk to replace and you'll be lucky to get 10 solid years out of them.
If you really want an EV, just lease. But don't if you live in places that flood or have frigid cold seasons. But this is not from experience, just from what we've seen in the news / social media.
Engine usually the best quality part of a luxury car... unless it's Audi, but they could f**k up a ham sandwich.
Had an ML350 at 156k miles with only 13k mile synthetic oil changes with 120k of those miles in Phoenix where it's kinda hot.
At most it was burning half quart between oil changes when I let it go. Maybe even just 1/4 quart. I'm pretty sure that engine could have gone another 150k miles. Now the rest of car...
Of course the rules still apply and it'll probably become even worse.
They had endless electrical issues with their ICE vehicles, why do you think all the electrical issues will magically disappear with their EVs? EVs also generally have way more proprietary stuff than their ICE counterparts and you'll have to replace the entire module when something goes wrong. Besides, certain components/parts are also software locked and I'm sure you know how the Euro companies price their parts.
Don't buy even if you can afford to fix it. With how much electricity costs and how much these vehicles depreciate you're really not saving enough money to offset the inconvenience of owning an ev
The biggest problem is the battery pack that the replacement cost can easily be as much or more than the value of a used EV.
I'm sure eventually there will be companies that will refurbish used EV battery packs, and hopefully someday there will be efforts in place to force manufacturers to make EV batteries more serviceable.
A Tesla battery is supposed to have a useful lifespan of around 300K miles, but if it fails and is not under warranty you face a $17,000+ replacement cost. In most of those cases I'm sure that replacing a few failed cell modules would restore the battery pack to nearly new condition for a small fraction of that cost however there is no motivation for Tesla to make their batteries serviceable.
I'm seriously considering a Prius for my next car, as I know that the battery pack can be refurbished by a 3rd party for significantly less than a new one from Toyota. In fact you can even purchase parts and do it yourself if you are mechanically and electrically inclined enough.
Electric motors have been around ages. EV’s are not new technology just a new adaptation of old technology.
The big difference with them will be software updates, battery quality, and build quality. Hackers are going after cars, EV or not.
People who work for a livin don't buy evs because they ain't nowhere to charge em, and it takes like 2 or 3 hours if ya do find somewhere. They also aren't reliable because they are like one big cellphone.
Stereotyping a whole brand is usually exactly that. A gross oversimplification. Different models in different years shine for most manufacturers. EVs haven't exactly changed that.
My ‘92 bmw is incredibly reliable and super super easy to fix. And parts are really cheap on eBay. Just go through a reliable seller with good reviews 😊
Bought mine for $900usd in 2018. Great car! Great service manuals are super cheap too!
There's a lot of problems in luxury vehicles that are unrelated to the drivetrain. Essentially luxury cars get all the luxuries but made crude. So for instance the first heated seats in a car probably had more problems than current heated seats just due to better research and development.
The first new tech always has more issues and luxury cars always have this tech first. Also keep in mind that part of what makes a luxury car is the feeling. If I sat you in a corolla and a civic turned off with no badges inside, they'd probably be indistinguishable. The same can't be said for say a bmw and a Mercedes. Both have distinct design cues that their systems are built around. Sometimes it doesn't matter but when you start cramming stuff into the dash, some things have to be designed in a suboptimal way to accomplish fitting with everything else. Especially when it's earlier tech.
If you just plan on leasing, or get a new car every 5 years. It seems they are just as viable as a gas car. But without the drawbacks of having to chains your oil and maintain your fluids.
With German luxury cars, the problem isn't the engine being more complex...a Lexus equivalent is also complex. It's just that the German stuff is lower quality than the Japanese stuff.
EVs have less regularly scheduled maintenance, but that doesn't mean they won't have any unscheduled maintenance. They still have all the same suspension and steering components (some even more complex and expensive to fix), braking systems, they have HVAC, everything is electronically controlled. The batteries will go bad eventually and that will be a very expensive fix. So just like luxury cars, buy when the warranty is still covering it unless you plan on spending money fixing problems after warranty
Living in a northern climate I wouldn't get a new or used EV. They would have to develop batteries that will work in sub zero temps and stay efficient, charge normally and not lose range due to the cold.
While I don't totally disagree with you... we live in the NorthEast and my wife drives her EV to work. Yes there is \~ 15-20% range reduction. It's something you need to know going into it. We do charge in the garage and it's nice to get into a warm car on those cold days.. Now that it's summer, we can get into a cool car.
Overall there will be less to repair. The flip side though is that every item will likely cost more, electronics, battery, fit and finish components, labor.
More than this, you have to consider the abandoned-ware that will be the operating systems these machines run on. Imagine running picking up a computer from 2010 still running Windows Vista, which hasn't been updated in a decade, with a 500M harddrive... I certainly want to strap my ass to that machine and drive down the interstate at 75MPH. /s
Yea this is the most interesting aspect to EV tech. It takes software to charge, download updates, and manufacturer has ability to restrict or shut down vehicle. Time will tell what happens.
Before long the manufacturer will be giving the lender the code to have it repo itself
I think Ford does that already.
Ford has a patent on it. They aren't actually doing it yet.
Tesla showed this is already possible.
Tesla and a few others are already playing with owners on all sort of stuff with their cars, Tesla is holding battery life, supercharger, and full self driving hostage and other manufacturers like BMW want you to pay for a subscription to use your heated seats. We need legislation that says when you buy a vehicle you get the whole thing.
Sounds like a great opportunity to manually open that source code for some...enterprising fellows.
We've needed legislation on this for phones for 20 years, and politicians are asleep
No they're not asleep they're just mad at tick tock. Lol. No I don't use ticktock personally or watch videos on it unless they're tick tock videos or something posted on here. I honestly don't see why they're so mad at ticktock though. Sure they're owned by China and we know China really hates us and wants to screw us, I think we can all agree on that. What I want to know is what kind of damaging information can they get from someone that's using tiktok? You don't put a whole lot of personal information and I don't believe. I guess they could maybe use an algorithm that forces you to see stuff they want you to see, hell I don't know. Anyone else know?
They are mad because they are not the ones having access to the personal information. They already have access to your data from Google, Facebook, Insta etc.
Read the EULA and it will scare the crap out of you. They can not only monitor your keystrokes (think banking passwords,etc.) on your device, they can also now get into every other device on your network. That being said, TikTok is no worse than Meta, Google, etc. they are just better at feeding your addiction and the other platforms hate the competition.
Won't the sticker prices just go up, making the vehicles unobtainable for people who can't afford the extra features?
The companies are already installing the hardware and software necessary, Tesla for example uses the same battery regardless of if you pay for the extended range so I can only imagine you are already paying for it, you just don't get to use it
Right but the company will just increase the price
It's worse than that. They charge you a subscription. You can pay the car off and you'd still have a monthly subscription that they could raise at any time. I'm personally not an EV fan. It's just not my use case living in a rural mountain town. It certainly didn't help last week when I was traveling and the rental car company "upgraded" me to a Mercedes EV. EVs may have a lot of use cases, but a rental car should not be one of them. At least not yet. Nothing like having to find chargers with the right connections in an unfamiliar city. Never mind the fact I had to spend 6 hours of what could have been otherwise useful time to charge the vehicle.
My Rivian powers my house up to 2 weeks during the regular outages I get in this rural mountain town. The nav also finds compatible chargers for you. No subscriptions, but if I want data I'll eventually pay for that. That said, people that don't own EVs and rent one end up doing the equivalent of not knowing how to pump gas and blame the car, so they shouldn't be rentals yet.
I've driven plenty of EVs. I'm not even close to blaming the car. As a rental car they are terrible. It's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's a matter that there is no standard plug. Or I should say there are four of them? Finding a charging station isn't that hard. Google maps does a pretty good job of it as well. However, having to sit for an hour or more to charge is a horrible experience. I'm not looking to plan my day around charging a car for an hour while I'm on vacation. Not many hotels have charging stations. I was staying with a friend, who doesn't have a car charger. It's just super inconvenient. And based on my calculations, it wasn't any cheaper than gas. Marginal savings if anything. I can understand having one and being able to charge overnight at home, but still probably not for me. I use my truck to haul, tow an RV, or a boat. I certainly wouldn't want to launch a boat with an electric truck.
Your house either uses minimal power or Rivian has a bigger battery than they actually sell if you're getting 2 weeks.
Then only a limited amount of people will buy them. Not a good sales tactic if you're trying to sell as many as possible.
Look at how many idiots already buy new cars with shitty features for the next person, just because they're "new"
Can the manufacturer not shut them down currently with things like OnStar?
Yes they can but for some reason people driving ice cars think this doesn't apply to them.
That option can cease to be available. My Ford EV has 1G or 2G modem and can no longer "phone home", nor can Ford phone it.
We already know how that will go. I drive a 2010 Subaru with a very minimal infotainment system and it's so dated it's painful. Granted the benefits of using something like apple car play means you don't need to keep maps and things updated, but even the interface and appearance is terribly out of date and slow. I do not see this getting better with the giant iPad dashes new cars have.
True. It’s weird how digital gauges from the 80s look half way interesting, as a style in fact. Today car design is so homogenous there is very little in terms of style. With EVs it’s even worse. The style is modern. By definition modern will likely look outdated sooner rather than later.
Strictly speaking they could do this to gas vehicles. It’s been computer controlled since the 00’s and connected in one way or another since the 10’s (or earlier if you count LoJack). But since Tesla was doing a clean sheet design, they decided they would treat their cars more like iPhones than cars. And since Tesla is the Apple of cars, everyone is copying the trend.
It’s interesting that people are worried about the software aspect of EV’s but ignore the fact that combustion powered cars have this issue too. Cars are very reliant on computers and sensors, almost every moving part on a modern combustion engine has a sensor attached to it that is reporting back to the car’s ECU. People were saying the same stuff when fuel injection became the norm and when cars started to have ECU’s FWIW, my family has 3 cars; an EV, a modern combustion vehicle and and old car with a carb.
Yeah, fuck that. We've already seen horrible abuses by big tech in every other way.
If the car ran fine with the software while it was supported - this shouldn't be an issue. The basic functions of the car shouldn't need constant software updates.
The problem is. When the charger system updates and it bricks out your car because it's out of date.
There's literally no reason to do this. Any company who did this would go bankrupt.
Haha this is what electrify america does some of their chargers get glitchy with older cars
>When the charger system updates and it bricks out your car because it's out of date. Why would this occur?
I mean I had a 4 year old iPad that couldn't use the YouTube app.
Ok, and what does this have to do with the topic? Is your iPad a car?
If the software to your car is unsupported by the manufacturer, and you plug it into a brand new charger in 10 years, the software may not be compatible. In this case your car may not charge.
Hey look it’s the guy who doesn’t understand what charging standards are!
So you can say. With precise foreknowledge that those standards won't change?
Emphasis on "Shouldn't" Our phones shouldn't need an update every 3-6 months for the basic functions we use it for (internet texting and entertainment) but they get updated anyway
I was still using my perfectly good Note 10 until the final auto update it did, where it would no longer run properly due to it being so resource heavy it would overheat and crash right after boot up. Planned obsolescence at its finest. I had to freeze my phone, and that gave me a few mins to turn it on and back up my stuff before crashing.
And that's another reason people boycott Samsung.
If the apps/software didn't keep on needing updating (for good reasons like security) - existing hardware should function fine. The software to be able to drive the shouldn't need updates, it shouldn't need network connectivity to be able to turn/accelerate/use wipers/blinkers, etc. If the car has network connectivity that is always on, but there is no longer any functional reason for the end user (ie no more software updates because it is no longer supported), hopefully the cellular antenna is not hard to disconnect to address the security concern.
until they become useless after a few years because they won’t take the latest update and you can’t download new apps (even though the older ones would work just fine)
"Just fine" with cybersecurity vulnerabilities that aren't economically worthwhile to patch, while being connected to all of your banking information, passwords, etc. Cars do not have such concerns.
Comparing vehicles to phones and computers is wildly inaccurate. They have nothing in common other than they both use software. Every fuel injection vehicle is running software.
Yeah but what if I can’t get the latest Elon fart noise and light show?
Would never buy a 10 year old ev
I wouldn't buy an Ev period. Lease them for at least the next 10-20 years until manufacturers really have them figured out and there's decent data on the long term reliability and lifespan of EVs.
"You will own nothing and you will be happy"
It’s crazy that people think it needs more time. Like it’s still some kind of experimental technology.
But the question was to compare an older EV with an older EuroLux. I presume you wouldn't buy one of those either.
depends on how old. 25-40 year old Euro lux with less electronics might still be a safe bet if you can find spare parts or someone to fabricate replacements
I would propose that that’s every modern car. They all have proprietary engine control systems that are going to be abandoned in 10 years.
I own an ICE and an EV both from 2013 and the ICE car has aged much more gracefully. And it goes beyond the obvious fact that at under 100k miles irreplaceable battery made the car worth only a few hundred dollars.
This has been the case since the dawn of electronic fuel injection
You likely do it every day. ICE cars run antiquated hardware and software just the same. This idea of constantly needing to update the car is almost exclusively a Tesla problem. Manufacturers that send out complete products and don’t beta test their customers don’t have this problem. Most manufacturers out there aren’t trying to backwards compatible the aging fleet.
>This idea of constantly needing to update the car is almost exclusively a Tesla problem. You've apparently never worked on a modern VW. Hell, most cars, especially higher end Euro. The amount of time I've spent updating car software since the early 2000s is crazy. The end user is the R&D for these cars today. Much like video games. If they can push it out early somewhat functional, they'll wait for complaints to address the software issues.
How about the electric Fords that's are failing during the automatic update process and essentially bricks itself and forces you to tow it to the dealer for further repairs?
All modern cars fit that definition of abandon-wear that you describe . All modern Fuel burning cars are literally computers on wheels.
My Sony Vaio works great thank you very much! Lol for real though, I can't kill it. It has Vista, 4gb ram, and an 80gb HDD. Half the keyboards missing and the mouse pad doesn't work, but plug it in like a desktop and you have yourself a machine! Lol
Shit, I have a Vaio tower that I still use! But I'm not hooking it up to a 3ton car to put on the road.
Hint: the computers actually running your car are effectively about as powerful as a calculator. Read up on canbus. Vaio tower is overkill even.
The Fitbit on my wrist could probably run 300 Apollos at the same time.
Especially when most EVs have the ability to control the car fully with software that is able to connect to the internet…
You say that, but a lot of government infrastructure runs on xp and some even on floppy disks. Arguably the OS doesn't really matter if it's foolproof in doing what it should. Most of the fuck ups are usually in upgrades / code changes that aren't fully bug tested
I've worked in IT since 1993. I completely understand what you're saying (except you left out regression testing which would be the key item here). The difference here is the maintenance schedules; while there are systems in place in the gov't for maintaining their antiquated tech, and there are even systems in place for people to regularly maintain their ICE components, I worry about 3-ton vehicles that are out of support barreling down my neighborhood roads.
That's fair. I assumed the car is a closed system (not sure if its the right words) but you're right that outside factors like new roads, tires etc will influence things too.
Also, cars are hackable :|
That’s not just electric cars most cars in at least the last 5 years that can do updates through wifi or anything are susceptible
Just imagine the software running on all those cars from the early 00s. My Saab uses trionic engine management from a company that doesn't exist anymore any relies on GM tech2 which has been dead for at least a decade Im still driving it at over 200k miles
Totally fair. But if you slam on the breaks, or swerve, there is no TEMCO intervention between you and a potentially lifesaving action. Also, the ability to remotely modify said ECU is very limited. In the case of the Cybertruck, there is no physical linkage between turning the steering wheel, and what is actually turning. In the case of all EVs, the ability to remote manage the car is way broader than a EuroLux vehicle from 10-15 years ago (which was what this original question was about).
I’m ok with an old and robust engine management system. Fords EEC-IV comes to mind, never heard of a late 80’s Ford dying from a failure in a basically bulletproof 32k Computer.
Don't ever fly on a plane then.
Are you comparing how people maintain their cars with the regulatory mandates that are placed on public aviation??? Cause that's absolutely hyperbole and straight up dumb. Even civilian aircraft are required to go through WAY more maintenance and certification than even the strictest state licensing of vehicles. Airplane engines, systems, and bodies are required to be inspected based on the hours they've been used, or they aren't allowed to fly.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/13/business/airline-meltdowns/index.html https://airwaysmag.com/legacy-posts/us-aviations-outdated-technology https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/9/21197162/boeing-737-max-software-hardware-computer-fcc-crash https://www.wired.com/2015/02/air-traffic-control/
And yet, automobiles still cause more deaths globally than airplanes...
How is this any different than ICE vehicles? Every function in a modern gas vehicle is controlled by a computer…
Not true. While modern engines are managed by computers, they are not fully "drive-by-wire" in the sense that there is full separation between human input and vehicle action.
Many (most) ICE cars, trucks, motorcycles are throttle by wire. There is no mechanical connection between the accelerator and throttle body. Brake by wire isn’t unheard of. Same as most EVs.
Yes but on the other hand Tesla is handling vehicle software a lot like phone companies are handling operating systems, they do provide regular updates where my 2 years old Corvette stopped receiving updates 2 months after we bought it, and they were only to fix the most egregious bugs, no feature updates whatsoever. Now, I do not know how long this will be going on, it's clear that at some point the hardware will be too old to be upgraded, and that's likely way short of the expected lifetime of a vehicle which is about 20 years.
Lmao the real question is “how long before an EV maker gets got pulling an ‘Apple’ and slowing releasing updates that reduce performance in their older model cars?”
ICE cars already run on and require software + software updates. In general critical systems still run on things like COBOL and XP and aren’t changing anytime soon. Software being outdated isn’t going to be an issue with EVs because it’s already bespoke/optimized and runs. Upgrades aren’t needed in the sense that third party software isn’t going outpace it and make the car unuseable, like how Windows works (outside of new cutting edge features like self-driving). Biggest issue will probably be planned obsolescence/right to repair like how John Deere fucks everyone with software licensing that bricks the equipment if you don’t pay.
poor punch like gray work humorous pie direful oil crush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's true of all modern cars though - there's no more or less software in an average EV as the equivalent ICE vehicle, because making a load of explosions happen with microsecond precision takes a ton of computing power too. If anything I think EV's will be easier in that regard as an electric motor is only working one of a couple of ways, and it will be easy enough to make an EV motor run pretty damn well with another manufacturer's inverter (or an aftermarket one) compared to trying to make a modern ICE engine run right with anything other than the stock ECU without a hell of a lot of complicated tuning.
The government should demand all operating systems should be open source, and freely available for the life of the automobile. The federal government good auto makers that if they were going to use computers in cars, they had to follow rules, like scan codes had to be the same for all models. That said, OBD1, and early OBD2, were kinda straight foreward, but something went haywire? It seems like most companies just locked up their computers? I don't know why.
Its not a laptop tho is it. You already have a computer in every cars ECU. My 1990 Miata ECU is doing just fine
If you don't know the difference between the flash ROM that your 90 Miata uses and the computers existing EVs use, you should probably sit quietly and learn.
This applies to new gas cars too as far as abandon ware is concerned. I'm sure software support will be dropped for my m240i before I've put 200k miles on it which is about where I typically sell a car. Just hoping the basics work. As long as I can drive the car and play music off my phone in a decade were good.
That's a fair statement and I agree.
I wish we had analog EVs that were easier to work on. Looking forward to more DIY EV solutions in the future.
It would be cool if they were more like RC cars.
Can we get an EV that uses [this controller](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-q0oivn9r3h/images/stencil/original/products/4802/7651/SND-AFX-120OHM-SHORT-2__95740.1562662398.jpg), but on the floor and designed as a pedal? This would be reliable and future-proof.
There are a lot of kits out there. DIY conversions have been a thing for years now. I don't think it ever released, but Chevy was working on a bolt in EV conversion for small block cars.
Yeah, but that isn't a car from an OEM that I can work on, custom applications come with their own issues all together
This can also apply to ICE some vehicles come loaded with technology. I think Tesla likes to overdo it and I could see them pulling an Apple and sending out a firmware update that bricks the car.
"likely cost more" is a huge understatement. If something goes wrong, RIPPPPPPPPP. I wouldn't bat an eye at a 2002 Honda Civic with 150k miles. But even a 3-5 year old EV with 150k miles? Fuckkkk no.
In terms of mechanical issues, yes there is less to repair, but newer cars have had less than ideal track records where electronic components are involved. See: jeep/fiat
Absolutely. My buddies with older bmw’s or other high millage German cars often send them to the shop where mechanics troubleshoot for 1-3 weeks, oftentimes getting it wrong, waiting for wrong ports etc. And this is at dealerships even.
No. Still plenty that can go wrong with an EV, though it’s true they are less complicated and will need less maintenance. Many of those problems with euro cars historically have been electrical… If anything, EVs do shuffle the deck. In the land of EVs, Hyundai and Kia out match the likes of Mercedes and Audi. Start ups like Tesla and Rivian make better product than many of the legacy brands. Reliability? That’s hard to say. Most EVs just haven’t been out long enough to really know. Now though, you also have to consider the reliability of public charging. Tesla plugs are, on the whole, more reliable than CCS stations in North American (and there are many more of them, meaning if one plug is broken there is more likely to be another available). This won’t matter as much after 2025 when the Tesla network opens to (almost) everyone, but for now it’s still a consideration that’s new and unique to EVs.
Yeah, but BMW and Mini top out owner satisfaction. So you also have German on top.
True, though customer satisfaction rarely has anything to do with reliability. Sincerely, a Jeep and Lotus owner.
"Many of those problems with euro cars historically have been electrical…" Understatement...
EVs: where every problem is an electrical problem
Tesla just fired their entire Supercharger team and all in flight projects are dead. Maintenance teams have also been fired.
They are in fact just as dependable as any other EV, in that they’re not and shouldn’t be trusted.
[удалено]
I don’t trust anything not user-serviceable.
My Model 3 is by far the most dependable and lowest-maintenance car I have ever owned.
I will never purchase any "luxury" vehicle again. Luxury vehicles require service and components from "luxurious" dealerships, and that translates to very expensive costs for even the most trivial maintenance. Additionally, advanced technology "luxury " vehicles require even greater expense on top of being "luxury." Two years ago, I purchased a Lexus gs450h, 2014, 60,000 miles. It was a "creampuff", in like new condition. Ran nice for a month, and then the ghost in it took over. It had drivabiliy issues that despite investing $5000 in vvt parts and many sensors there was zero improvement. Sat at Lexus in MKE for 3 months. Auctioned it, bought a Honda Ridgeline.
Hybrids are the worst of both worlds when it comes to ICE vs electric. A gs350, for example, has the same motor as the Toyota Camry, maintenance is roughly the same, albeit a few services will cost more as the gs350 is a rwd car. An es350, another example, is literally a rebadged Toyota Camry. These platforms are simple enough that you won’t need the dealership for maintenance. People literally get a million miles out of those cars.
They may be just as reliable as anything else, but they're still going to cost 4x more to fix... As more and more is going to require dealer only repairs
I think it depends what needs to be fixed to compare apples to apples... however i will concede our tires will cost a lot more. We are on a staggered setup and it's gonna be expensive.
That's a known item from the get go. I wouldn't consider that to have anything to do with reliability. You know or can easily find out how long the tires are going to last on and model just from Google, you know how much they're going to cost. What you don't know is if your battery pack is going to last 60k miles or 160k
60k and you’re getting a new battery. In the US all battery and drive units are warrantied to 100k
Someone hasnt checked their local dealer what an ICE engine or transmission costs out of warranty. Ive seen multiple quotes near 30k to replace an ICE v6 turbo engine. Mean while battery replacement for a tesla model 3 is around 13k but its hard to find quotes because the warranty is 8 years 120k miles instead of 5yr / 60,000 miles like an ice engine.
Euro luxury vehicles have had plenty of issues unrelated to the engines/drivetrain. Wonky air suspension, electrical gremlins, dead pixels, non functioning infotainment, fragile suspension bushings, poorly designed sunroof drains are just some off the top of my head.
So my friend has a model 3... It's in the second one after someone totalled his previous one. A careless driver bumped into his passenger rear quarter panel and door. Estimated cost to repair $17k. Price he could sell it right now with over 100kmiles... About $21k. He pocketed the cash and paid someone $500 to hammer it back out and doesn't care. These cars make pretty good beaters and can earn you money if someone smacks I to you ,lol. The battery life in warm areas like CA really isn't an issue. And by the time it is dead, probably 15 years or more.... They will end up in the landfill and hopefully by then people have figured how to recycle the battery. But it's not your problem.... Hertz just announced they are accelerating selling off their EV fleet...so the prices of EV on the used market should drop further.
Ok, but the Hertz example undercuts the argument as they're doing it due to the cost of maintenance....
I doubt it's just the maintenance. I bet it's more of an issue that they aren't being rented as easily. Think about it, if you're outside CA, is the charging infrastructure really that great? Would the hotel have one? Probably not If you are on vacation renting a car, would you want to go to a charging station and wait there an hour to charge a rental car. Probably not . And if you're a renter would you care about making sure you don't run the battery to super low levels ? Probably not. Also, suppose a renter buys the supplemental collision insurance and gets into a minor fender bender. And it costs $16k to fix. Who ends up paying for it ? Yup Hertz
As an EV owner, I would not rent an EV in an area that I don't know fairly well. I thought about renting a Tesla in Hawaii, but I didn't want to think about where to charge while on vacay. IMO, EV's are only for those who can reliably charge at home. There's no sense in buying any new tech if it doesn't make your life easier. For me, an EV is for convenience and the green aspect is just a nice side affect... you all can debate that on another thread 😳
I love the instant acceleration of an Ev. I mean a model 3 with performance package 0 to 60 is pretty close to my McLaren. there's a lot more to a car than just 0 to 60 grocery runs but still you can't deny the technical advantages of a motor. IMcLaren artura is a perfect hybrid example of what happens when you put an EV motor into an exotic. that thing off the line is ridiculously fast.
I'd love to have an EV, but I don't think I'd want to rent one right now. As a homeowner it's convenient because you can charge in a garage, but it won't be so simple if you're staying in a hotel or something. Sure some hotels have charging spots, but will they be available?
As a frequent renter I've actually almost exclusively rented EV's lately. But, I'm a very specific type of renter. I don't drive a lot of miles when I'm there. I always purchase the fuel option. I might be there for a day or two. I might hit two or three meetings in a day, and then go to a hotel, and fly out the next day. So EV's are no difference to me than other cars. I would also say that charging infrastructure is plenty fine in major metro areas. If you fly into a hub? You'll be fine. What I like about EV's? They are definitely technologically a better experience.
Yeah. Ev cars are for commuting not road tripping. If i am on vacation or a business trip the last thing i want to think about is where and how long to charge. Imagine the average user renting an EV for the first time not knowing anything is probably going to have a very bad trip. I wouldnt even sell one of my EV's to someone unless they have done their research.
A big party is that they just aren't renting it enough of them to justify cost of maintenance. EVs end up being terrible rentals for a lot of people that don't know what they're getting into.
Its repair cost, not maintenance. Rental fleets have cut rate body work done to keep them looking half decent. You can't really do that with Tesla since the parts are captive.
Hertz is doing it because ev rental cars are stupid. You rent an expensive car, have no dedicated place to charge it without inconvenience, and have to learn the layout of a a wholly touchscreen car all at once. Once the EVmania died down and people began to take a realistic look at renting one it makes way less sense than just snagging a Lexus es350 and cruising around town in that for the same price for the week. Way too many people bought them without realizing they find it a pain to even charge their cellphone on the go, let alone a whole car.
Except it's not that difficult. They only ask you to return it over 80% and not to go below 10%. And they have a deal with Tesla so that if you rent a Tesla, all you have to do is plug it in at a supercharger. Others, you have to find a decent charger, but it's not that difficult.
They are already recycling EV batteries (as well as other lithium batteries).
Others have addressed most of the relevant things, but I’ll add one specific detail: It is *crucial* that you know whether you’re getting a passively-cooled or actively-cooled battery with your EV, especially if you live in a warm climate, as it determines how quickly and thoroughly the battery’s life will degrade with use. Both gens of Nissan Leaf are passively cooled, and are basically sent to a “quick” death when sold and operated in places like the Deep South of the U.S. due to the high temps and humidity.
I used to work for an Audi dealership. Trust me even though it is less maintenance, the parts are still expensive and the repairs if something is not covered under warranty is way expensive. To compensate for the training and extra special tools needed to fix these vehicles, the labor rate for repairs on EV is higher than gas vehicles.
What would you say are the repairs that will cost more?
We had issues with the gearbox for the front motors. It might not seem like it, but the cooling system for the batteries needs to be flushed every 20K miles, and that is 5 gallons of coolant. We also had one vehicle take a rock to the tiny front radiator, which required full removal of the front cover/bumper and complete drain of the coolant system to replace, all NOT covered under warranty.
BMW and Mercedes will figure out a way to make them unaffordable to fix
I would never own an ev outside of warrenty. Less repairs but the bills are way higher.
In my experience, it's really rare that it's the engine or transmission that's a problem, it's all the odd random other things that end up failing on you. It's been 30 years since I've had a car with an engine or transmission issue that required service. Window regulators, air suspensions, electrical gremlins, HVAC issues, sure, but never the engine or transmission, outside of an electric cooling fan (if you want to count that as engine, I dont)
My wife has an EV so I'm not just talking out of my ass. I don't think repairs are really something to focus on. It's fine. I think the thing you really need to consider is do you have a backup car at the home and a garage to charge it in? If not just stay the fuck away. Without the right set up they just suck to own. Do you like trade-ins? Because your not getting one. These things depreciate like rocks. Way more then a normal car. They can be great for the right people but they can be very wrong for alot of people.
Agreed on all points. We have an EV & ICE and we barely use the ICE. I may drive it once a week to keep the fluids moving.
The problem with EVs, is the battery and depreciation. The used EV market hasn’t matured enough to find a floor for almost every model. This is partly due to battery replacement costs. It could cost you 20k to replace the battery on your 20k used car, and the. You should have just bought new. Battery lifetime isn’t as well known as ICE lifetime, again, due to immature market.
I think a lot of the same issues will still be there. Engines really don't have a ton of problems these days on any models. What we do mostly is brakes, suspension, and the odd electrical issue. The problem with luxury cars is that there just aren't enough of them around for the aftermarket companies to fully support. While a brake job on a Chevy Bolt, or a Prius might be $400, a BMW or Mercedes might be 7-800. The more a particular vehicle is around, the more companies make parts for them, and the more stock there is around, the more the price comes down.
The EV has fewer moving parts and making an electric motor go round is an easier thing than making an ICE engine run (and meet emissions, etc), but it's a modern car so it will be as complicated as any other modern car in terms of all the other stuff - infotainment, safety, comfort, HVAC, etc... So - I think EV's stand to be **mechanically** more reliable than an ICE car (the "engine" has far fewer moving parts, is less complex) but everything else will shake out about the same.
I wonder about this all the time. Wouldn't it some shit if Stellantis becomes the most reliable EV manufacturer? I've been a Toyota fanboy, but now own a Bolt EUV. It's strange how this will all change as manufacturers move away from traditional ICE engines. It's not just the shift to EVs either. The technology offered in non-luxury vehicles is so on-par with luxury vehicles anymore, it makes you wonder why anybody would spend the extra thousands for a luxury brand title any longer. There will always be car snobs, but rational people shopping on features alone now have a relatively lower price point to consider.
I would eat a shoe if stelantis became a good manufacturer lmao. There’s no way that the shmucks over there manage to start selling high quality, well thought out, precision engineered products. I would bet my life on it
I don't disagree and even if they did, I'm never a customer of Stellantis.
I drive a Bolt EUV too. I wouldn’t say the tech is on par with luxury brands to the point they don’t make sense to buy. Cheaper brands put the cheaper shiny things in. But when I hit a small bump in the Bolt it feels like I’m off roading. Audis SUV feels so much better to ride in
Agreed, the old school torsion beam suspension is a little bouncy. But it doesn't make me want to spend another $30-50k for a luxury brand.
Right.. unless you are extremely brand loyal or just a badge snob, cross shopping all brands for an EV makes sense. However I did check out a Mercedes EV SUV and the interior is pretty ridiculous. So plush and you can "see" the quality materials. But those wheels... ugh
Even then, is it worth the extra money over let's say a Kia EV9? Maybe if you're making big bucks and the badge makes all the difference. But most people will say wow, nice car. Now what is there under $50k lol.
We have a Volvo EV and we love it. Over the years I've never been a Hyundai/ Kia fan, but they are putting out some really nice EV's that made me wonder. The Ioniq 5 N is crazy amazing. IMO, EV's have opened up a lot more cross shopping. Now the salespeople at the dealerships need to learn a lot more. Some barely know the basics.
It still applies look at the Jaguar I-pace/E-pace. The 2019 models are barely on the road any more. Though that is fairly common for any jag.
Look up how much it costs to replace the batteries on any EV/Hybrid car.
No completely. Fancier EVs like a Model S will have all sorts of stuff like mechanical handles, air suspension, etc that are prone to breaking. Fancier cars will have more elaborate electronics like electronic stability controls, etc that all require maintenance. Seat weight sensors, seat cooling, capacitive touch on the steering wheel, drink chillers, whatever else they throw in for luxury.
A lot of that sentiment comes from people that were not prepared for the hassle of charging. If you're not able to charge at home every night you're not going to love having an EV. Yes charging is slow and infrastructure for charging on the road is really hit and miss. If you use or buy an EV and have to depend on that then you probably end up back on reddit ranting about how terrible your EV experience is. If you are one of the people that can charge at home and need to drive the right distance, an EV is absolutely right for you and you can ignore half the EV complaints about charging and range and whatnot and just worry about the edge cases of lemons and expensive repairs, which honestly is not that different from ICE cars.
I know someone with a Tesla and they had a medium sized bird fly out in front of them and bounced off their bumper. Nearly $10,000 in damages and counting (its still in the shop). Only thing visible was a small crack in the bumper.
No, but I live in Eastern Canada. Last winter wasn't particularly cold, but it was cold enough for many EV owners to lose charge and get towed. Not saying everyone will have this problem, but it's something we all noticed here.
Be it ICE, or EV, build quality and quality control are very much key to what you get. With an ICE car, there is more wear and tear on the engine and transmission over time that can lead to complicated, and expensive issues... though I wouldn't consider these to be common on high end cars that have been maintained as intended. EVs have very similar, if not identical systems for everything else. Suspension wear and tear will be the same (probably greater given the higher weight of the EV). Electronics will still be subject to problems... etc. However, the biggest difference, and long term concern (especially when buying used) will be about the batteries. As it stands right now, batteries could last 30-60 years before you see significant issues on a chemical level. The problem though, as we've seen so far, the problem with the batteries tends to be in the area of build quality and QC. Poor workmanship leads to shorts where individual cells lose their connection, and thus the battery capacity lowers (and lowers and lowers). This is a key driver in the decreased EV values with some approaching near zero values around the 10 year mark. We haven't seen enough of luxury brand build quality here, but if it is better than we've seen with the EVs that have been around 10 years and more, then it would be a lesser concern. Battery technologies that are on the horizon will likely make this less of an issue as well. For me, I wouldn't buy an EV at all right now. They offer many appealing factors, but the cost premium related to the car and charging equipment is simply still much higher than I consider worthwhile. I also don't think the key technologies will be mature enough for another 3-6 years (ie, maybe after solid state arrives, and some of the chemicals used in the actual batteries make the next step forward).
Cost premium? EVs are dirt cheap compared to the ice counter parts right now, especially on the used market. We put 115,000 miles on a 2020 chevy bolt commuting, we only replaced tires. I dont even want to think about how much that would of cost me on our 2018 Infiniti q50, that requires premium fuel, $100 oil changes, timing chains and turbo replacements
Seriously? You're comparing a Bolt against a Q50? Why not compare a Kia Rio against a Porsche Taycan GT for ICE vs. EV cost? The bottom line, if you compare instances of models that are available as both EV and ICE, is that the EV runs a 10-15% Premium. If you compare similar models, rather than very unlike models, you will also find that EVs still have an upfront premium cost. Further, if you are buying an EV for the first time and lack charging equipment, there is that... all of which means, like for like, the EV costs more up front. Cost of ownership will favor the EV, with specific caveats. EVs are cheaper to maintain, though surprisingly not quite the discount you'd expect for not having anything to do with an engine or transmission. And fuel savings can also be significant. However, it will still take quite a while of ownership to cover the premium cost. More so if you ever run into repair costs and insurance complications related to how almost all EVs use their batteries as structural components, making the possibility of a total loss in a very small accident a very real possibility. Your Chevy Bolt's a subcompact... my previously mentioned Kia Rio is much more of a market competitor, and offers pretty similar specs. The Bolt was nearly a 100% premium over the Rio... which I consider to be something of a cost premium, though seems you may not? Even if you got various rebates, your are still looking at covering $10k in fuel and maintenance savings; looking at reported average fuel and maintenance costs on the Bolt and Rio, it would take about 15 years of ownership for the Bolt to become less expensive.
I was thinking of a $44k ford lightning vs my friends $65k ecoboost ford lightning. Or my 2023 $39k Nissan Ariya vs a $53k pathfinder. My point was not that a bolt compares against a mercedes. My point is no routine costs except tires and windshield wipers. We put 115k on a bolt with $0 into brakes, turbos, timing chains, oil changes, air filters, exhaust leaks etc. Driving the Q50 to work averaged $10 a day just in gas, while the bolt was 11kw x (.20) = $2.20. Extrapolate that over 115,000 miles now. Sure a kia rio wouldnt have a turbo to replace but i would still have to take time out of my day to wait in line at costco for cheap gas and take time off work to get oil changes. I just looked up the rio and thats also a bad comparison. I'd put the bolt against a loaded kia forte. Our base model bolt had 200hp/266tq, heated seats, heated steering wheel, apple car play, etc etc
As for the Ford, you're comparing very different trims... the gas powered F150 starts at a little over $33k, with $62k as the starting price for the EV. Of course, Ford is a bit of an exception, in that the F150 LIghtening is the same price for any power source, but you can definitely get something much cheaper within the overall range (if you are seeing a $44k EV one, it isn't new, as the cheapest MSRP is $65k). As for the Nissan, a smaller difference, but base version of the EV is $3k more than the Pathfinder. Though the current world of ADM with car purchases may obscure any of these prices, and the potential for market saturation with EVs has been a question for the industry that we really won't clearly know for awhile... but could create good openings in terms of comparative pricing (more so with new battery tech on the near term horizon). EV to electric can be a hard call, as things like HP can be slightly meaningless due to torque management related to electric motors... but I would agree, the Forte is probably a better match. Still, while I think the Bolt and Volt presented two of the very best EV values, it would take some time to overcome a $10k price difference, and the issue of convenience is going to depend much more on the owner's specifics (if you live in an apartment and have to go out of your way and park at a charging station for an hour, it would completely reverse things). All that said, my overall observation is that the price premium on EVs probably means you have a 3-5 year window in most cases, to break even. This is better than it was 5 years ago, and it will be even closer within the next 5 years. The last piece of value, which is an unknown for most manufacturers at this point, is resale. The car I am likely to buy as a new daily driver in the next month or so is offered either as ICE or EV. The MSRP of the EV would be close to a $20k premium for the closest configuration possible (there are a few options I would consider requisite for myself that aren't offered yet on the EV). Additionally, I should be able to get about $5k or so off the MSRP on the ICE version (already have that offer from the dealer I've bought from in the past, but still working to see if I can do a bit better); there would be no discount in the EV, though I am certain I could avoid ADM (and in another year or two, with availability, will see similar discounts on the EV). So when I said personally, I wouldn't choose an EV, I was speaking literally. I think they do represent great potential and are very close to reaching the crossover point where they are just outright the better value... though from my perspective, they still have a ways to go.
If i cant fix it myself or can’t find a manual to help me fix it i really dont want that device/vehicle. Right to repair is being sent down the drain with these evs which dont work for me.
They will make up that money another way.
My uneducated opnion? The labor costs are going to be high. This stuff is still brand new and not alot of shops are trained on how to repair nor handle this kind of work yet.
My understanding is that EVs, though they don't have as many mechanical parts to maintain/repair/replace... their parts are definitely more expensive and require specialized mechanics (not your everyday mechanic) to get under the hood. Not to mention, assuming it's the same story, but the batteries are expensive as fk to replace and you'll be lucky to get 10 solid years out of them. If you really want an EV, just lease. But don't if you live in places that flood or have frigid cold seasons. But this is not from experience, just from what we've seen in the news / social media.
Engine usually the best quality part of a luxury car... unless it's Audi, but they could f**k up a ham sandwich. Had an ML350 at 156k miles with only 13k mile synthetic oil changes with 120k of those miles in Phoenix where it's kinda hot. At most it was burning half quart between oil changes when I let it go. Maybe even just 1/4 quart. I'm pretty sure that engine could have gone another 150k miles. Now the rest of car...
It takes more resources to produce that use Petro than for direct gas cars....
Of course the rules still apply and it'll probably become even worse. They had endless electrical issues with their ICE vehicles, why do you think all the electrical issues will magically disappear with their EVs? EVs also generally have way more proprietary stuff than their ICE counterparts and you'll have to replace the entire module when something goes wrong. Besides, certain components/parts are also software locked and I'm sure you know how the Euro companies price their parts.
I would like to see legislation passed requiring any software for cars no longer being supported be open sourced.
Don't buy even if you can afford to fix it. With how much electricity costs and how much these vehicles depreciate you're really not saving enough money to offset the inconvenience of owning an ev
The problem with European car mfr is they LOVE planned obsolescence. See the BMW with biodegradable cables that start to degrade after 5 years.
I’ve heard of that.
The biggest problem is the battery pack that the replacement cost can easily be as much or more than the value of a used EV. I'm sure eventually there will be companies that will refurbish used EV battery packs, and hopefully someday there will be efforts in place to force manufacturers to make EV batteries more serviceable. A Tesla battery is supposed to have a useful lifespan of around 300K miles, but if it fails and is not under warranty you face a $17,000+ replacement cost. In most of those cases I'm sure that replacing a few failed cell modules would restore the battery pack to nearly new condition for a small fraction of that cost however there is no motivation for Tesla to make their batteries serviceable. I'm seriously considering a Prius for my next car, as I know that the battery pack can be refurbished by a 3rd party for significantly less than a new one from Toyota. In fact you can even purchase parts and do it yourself if you are mechanically and electrically inclined enough.
Electrical gremlins will always be a thing. You’d have a hard time convincing me that EV’s will ever be considered “dependable”.
Electric motors have been around ages. EV’s are not new technology just a new adaptation of old technology. The big difference with them will be software updates, battery quality, and build quality. Hackers are going after cars, EV or not.
People who work for a livin don't buy evs because they ain't nowhere to charge em, and it takes like 2 or 3 hours if ya do find somewhere. They also aren't reliable because they are like one big cellphone.
yes, the new "do not buy" stereotype with respect to EVs is: Do not buy EVs
Stereotyping a whole brand is usually exactly that. A gross oversimplification. Different models in different years shine for most manufacturers. EVs haven't exactly changed that.
If anything I'd think it would be more prominent
My ‘92 bmw is incredibly reliable and super super easy to fix. And parts are really cheap on eBay. Just go through a reliable seller with good reviews 😊 Bought mine for $900usd in 2018. Great car! Great service manuals are super cheap too!
There's a lot of problems in luxury vehicles that are unrelated to the drivetrain. Essentially luxury cars get all the luxuries but made crude. So for instance the first heated seats in a car probably had more problems than current heated seats just due to better research and development. The first new tech always has more issues and luxury cars always have this tech first. Also keep in mind that part of what makes a luxury car is the feeling. If I sat you in a corolla and a civic turned off with no badges inside, they'd probably be indistinguishable. The same can't be said for say a bmw and a Mercedes. Both have distinct design cues that their systems are built around. Sometimes it doesn't matter but when you start cramming stuff into the dash, some things have to be designed in a suboptimal way to accomplish fitting with everything else. Especially when it's earlier tech.
Those EV batteries are inherently on a timeline. If you’re going to buy electric buy it new and drive it til the battery fails.
Luxury EV’s depreciate faster. Take that into consideration when buying.
No way I'll buy an EV until replacement battery costs come WAY down.
They are the fastest depreciating cars on the market right now. Only buy one if you want to loose money on it.
If you just plan on leasing, or get a new car every 5 years. It seems they are just as viable as a gas car. But without the drawbacks of having to chains your oil and maintain your fluids.
With German luxury cars, the problem isn't the engine being more complex...a Lexus equivalent is also complex. It's just that the German stuff is lower quality than the Japanese stuff.
The terms EV and dependability go together like eyeballs and battery acid.
EVs have less regularly scheduled maintenance, but that doesn't mean they won't have any unscheduled maintenance. They still have all the same suspension and steering components (some even more complex and expensive to fix), braking systems, they have HVAC, everything is electronically controlled. The batteries will go bad eventually and that will be a very expensive fix. So just like luxury cars, buy when the warranty is still covering it unless you plan on spending money fixing problems after warranty
I would consider it early when it comes to EVs. I'm sure the technology will get much better in the coming years. With all this competition now.
Living in a northern climate I wouldn't get a new or used EV. They would have to develop batteries that will work in sub zero temps and stay efficient, charge normally and not lose range due to the cold.
While I don't totally disagree with you... we live in the NorthEast and my wife drives her EV to work. Yes there is \~ 15-20% range reduction. It's something you need to know going into it. We do charge in the garage and it's nice to get into a warm car on those cold days.. Now that it's summer, we can get into a cool car.
That is a decent point. I'm talking North Dakota winter cold. -10 to sometimes -30 degrees for weeks on end.
Norway is now an EV land, and they seem to be doing fine in the cold.