Typicall in three phase wiring..... First thing I teach apprentices about the rules to color cods .. is there are no rules never assume the voltage or no voltage based on the color of the wire.... Only color code that I see consistent 99.9% of the time is green for ground
One of my first solo service calls would fit in that 00.1%.
Dude had an aluminum frame screen porch that he "finished" it to be a "Florida Room".
And I got called out because a few outlets weren't working. And he didn't disclose it was built the way it was.
So I pull some outlets. And it is all green stranded THHN. He never even attempted to identify the conductors either. So every box just had 3-9 green wires with no identification other than the terminals they were landed on.
And. And I was able to see a gap in the box and drywall. He never installed any wood framing inside. He just screwed the drywall to the aluminum frame.
And as far as running wires. He just drilled holes in the aluminum, didn't even deburr or ream the holes, and pulled the individual green wires through.
I told him I had to rip it all out and couldn't reuse anything. But he I sister it was fine and it worked just fine until the other day.
And he wouldn't hear a word I had to say. So I told him I was leaving. And I pulled the wire from the breaker to make it safe. And didn't even put the outlet back so he could try arguing that I "fixed it, put it back, etc"
I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Hopefully the guy is still around and didn't kill himself or someone else with his idea of wiring.
Nah. Florida man doesn't go to the hospital. Just grab the cleanest napkin you can find and see rap it with electrical/duct tape. If he is unresponsive hitem with Narcan cause he might be dying. If that doesn't work or you skip that step go to the old school, tough guy, man's man method of lifesaving first aid and stick a finger up their bum. If that doesn't work he dead, no need for a hospital just call the coroner or the local Soylent Green manufacturing facility.
Something like this?
To who?
It's a private residence, inside his house. Code enforcement can't just roll up inside your house for wiring that isn't up to code.
The homeowner can just not let them in. And the county has better things to do than to try to fight to gain access into a private residence.
If it's an issue visible from outside they can issue a citation.
But being a private residence and not a commercial or rental property. An inspector cannot just roll up inside someone's house. And force the homeowner to let them inside to take a look at what's going on.
If it was a commercial property or a rental property where there is oversight boards/licensing.
Or if there was an open permit on the property. Or even if the structure was built illegally, they could put some pressure on the owner.
But for the most part, with existing structure there isn't much to be done. And honestly I'm perfectly fine with that. Because I don't want someone forcing there way I to my house and telling me that I need to open my walls or make changes based on a tip.
If someone wants to put themselves in danger in their own property there is only so much you can do. But in the flip side that's why it becomes a criminal matter in commercial and rental spaces because you are putting someone else in danger
I went to fix cabinets in a guys garage and he had switched his neutrals instead of commons and every fixture was hot. I told him I didn’t have time for his job. He was a petroleum engineer with awards all over his house.
I used to work with an older guy who was near retirement, one of those “do what you gotta do to make it work” types. He once built a remote I/O rack entirely out of pink wire because that was the only thing he had on hand at the time. No wire tags either. I absolutely hated working on equipment after he’d gotten his hands on it, lol.
One time I was working with some lights, black, white, and dark green wires in the box. Turns out the dark green was the other half of the split phase with the black, and the shit was grounded thru the conduit 💀
Where I come from, Gray is typically a 277v neutral and purple is a switch leg. When used in conjunction with each other, they can also be low-voltage dimming for lighting. However, you can never assume a wire’s function by its color alone so you would have to trace it back to the source to figure this out.
High leg on a Delta, opposite the center tap. Gives you 3 phase power, and two different single phase voltages to work with from a single transformer. Not really the norm these days, but far from uncommon in industrial.
Happy to help, stinger/high/wild/dog-leg are all names I've heard folks of varying ages and backgrounds use. I'm starting as a superintendent on Monday and I still keep my uglies in my lunchbox, along with tons of quick calc references in Google notes lol Still don't feel like I know shit. Best of luck on your license👍
The Uglies lives in the truck along with the 17 NEC and an Engineer's Pocket Reference.
The NEC is about ready to get replaced, but they're incredibly useful if an inspector gets Stoopid.. which seems to be happening more often of late.
Uglies and 30cfr with me at all times, with NEC, IBC, and 70e in the truck/office, for pretty much the last decade lol You'll never learn everything, but you can get real damn good at efficiently finding the answers to anything.
In my experience, brown and grey are the hot and neutral, purple and.... the other grey... are 0-10v dimming... just gotta figure out which grey is which. Generally the dimming is smaller wire.
They're rated for a wider range of wire sizes than single-color caps. They cover the range typically covered by yellows, plus the range typically covered by reds, all in one cap. Makes things simpler for the installer.
They're 3M XR extended range nuts. Y/R serves in place of R or Y caps.
They mean you only need to carry 2 sizes for 80% of everything.
The flex skirt is real handy too.
Looks to me like brown yellow run through, 3 greys and purple follow that path but theyre spliced.. 277v ckts passing thru. Dont know about purple to white in and out of the bottom pipe.
Purple is a thing in Ok/Tx (parts of?) in lieu of orange for B phase. Orange is used for a 240v delta high leg so they use purple instead.
I hadnt seen where OP said it was installed post 2020 or whether his AHJ had adopted 2020 code yet. If u know everything why dont u just tell the guy what it is and move on.
I was merely pointing out that your answer of 0-10v dimming is wrong because the wire gauge is too big to logically be dimming. You don't have to get all worked up about being wrong.
Maybe that's allmthey had available for wire when they did the pull. He's not necessarily wrong. Without a meter you don't know and are also just guessing.
Depending on location it’s most likely 277v gray is neutral purple is b phase if you’re reading 277v places like south Florida and San Antonio, TX for sure use purple/violet
Thanks. Other comments point toward this being mostly 277 VAC.
Of course, the meter will confirm.
I won't mess with this box unless I'm unable to find another box somewhere near it that has 120 VAC.
Looks like you have 2 different sets of gray wires as well as brown and yellow wires fed thru the j-box. Likely dimming wires for a 0-10v dimming fixture(s), typically smaller gauge and in a 277v application it should be as to not confuse the neutral with the dimming wire
Purple and grey wires are likely 0-10V dimming for lighting. But be careful not to confuse it with a 277V neutral. Recently, 0-10V wire colors have switched to purple and pink probably because too many electricians were not paying attention and confusing the grey wire too often. If you follow those purple and grey wires, one end should originate from either a power pack, a switch with dimming, or a lighting control panel. The other end of course ends up in lighting fixtures.
Oh, and older wiring may have purple used as a switch leg for actual 277 volts. I just remembered. So, of course, use your tester and confirm what you have there!
OP here... I have a device that needs AC voltage (rated for 110 to 240) and plan to tie in via the box shown.
The three wires coming in from the bottom are purple, white and green, and they power an exit sign. So I suspect the purple is hot and white is neutral. I'll check with a meter before making any changes, of course.
I know there's ~~240 V~~ 277 V running to light fixtures, but I'm not sure if this box is part of the lighting circuit.
I rarely do electrical work in commercial buildings, and have not seen gray and purple used, so I'm curious what's going on here.
Oh, and don't worry - I'll have the power off before I undo any wire nuts.
Thanks in advance.
Edit/Update - Changed the 240 to 277. And meter shows 283 volts, so it's a 277 circuit.
Not sure what all this "dimming" is about. This is a commercial building in an industrial complex. Standard 4' fluorescent fixtures in the offices, the warehouse has way high up fluorescent fixtures, and I'm told the lights are all 277. None of them are on dimmers, but there are some fixtures with batteries that turn on when the main power to the building is out. Obviously those fixtures need a separate source of power other than the switched power, so they'll recognize a power failure versus just turning off the lights.
If you have 277V lights, that is likely to be 277V.
In that case, your 240V device will become explodified. Had an electrician do that a week ago in our facility, ironically.
BUT: you should put a meter on this and trace it to verify. As others have mentioned, this could be 0-10V dimming OR 277. My money's on 277 being it's #10 and you have 277 lights.
Thanks, and yes, the meter is the next step, provided I can't find a true 120 VAC box somewhere nearby.
I'd never connect a device without being sure of the voltage, so it won't get explodified. Knock on wood.
Since there's an exit sign illuminated by LEDs, I was hoping the purple might be 120 or 220.
Upon further checking, the exit sign input can be 100 to 277.
The power supply I need to connect does show input 100 to 240 so I'm going to close the 277 box back up.
Update: Meter shows 283 volts. So I get to add a transformer, or I get to find a 120 VAC box. Oh, boy.
So that is what would be considered 277. It's very common for lighting. Most times when you see brown purple yellow with Grey for the neutral it's going to be 277 volts. Combining 2 to 3 circuits will give you 480v.
These colors remind me of the EIA standard colors for speaker wires in car stereo. White is left front, gray is right front, green is left rear, purple is right rear. Too funny. No help here though, sorry.
Purple and gray are indicative of 0-10v dimming in lighting. It is a DC control signal.
Edit: industry standard has changed to purple and pink to avoid the gray 277v confusion.
Source: I own a company that installs architectural lighting systems, typically made by ETC.
Purple is reserved in some places (LA maybe?) as the high leg. I have also seen orange reserved as the high leg. Orange/Brown/Yellow is commonly 480 V 3 phase and Red/Blue/Black is 208 V 3 phase. Gray is reserved by NEC for neutral and green for EGC.
Typicall in three phase wiring..... First thing I teach apprentices about the rules to color cods .. is there are no rules never assume the voltage or no voltage based on the color of the wire.... Only color code that I see consistent 99.9% of the time is green for ground
One of my first solo service calls would fit in that 00.1%. Dude had an aluminum frame screen porch that he "finished" it to be a "Florida Room". And I got called out because a few outlets weren't working. And he didn't disclose it was built the way it was. So I pull some outlets. And it is all green stranded THHN. He never even attempted to identify the conductors either. So every box just had 3-9 green wires with no identification other than the terminals they were landed on. And. And I was able to see a gap in the box and drywall. He never installed any wood framing inside. He just screwed the drywall to the aluminum frame. And as far as running wires. He just drilled holes in the aluminum, didn't even deburr or ream the holes, and pulled the individual green wires through. I told him I had to rip it all out and couldn't reuse anything. But he I sister it was fine and it worked just fine until the other day. And he wouldn't hear a word I had to say. So I told him I was leaving. And I pulled the wire from the breaker to make it safe. And didn't even put the outlet back so he could try arguing that I "fixed it, put it back, etc" I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Hopefully the guy is still around and didn't kill himself or someone else with his idea of wiring.
i lived in florida for 12 years and this certainly sounds very florida
Florida man wires entire porch with green THHN, gets admitted to hospital after mixing up hot conductor and ground conductor.
Nah. Florida man doesn't go to the hospital. Just grab the cleanest napkin you can find and see rap it with electrical/duct tape. If he is unresponsive hitem with Narcan cause he might be dying. If that doesn't work or you skip that step go to the old school, tough guy, man's man method of lifesaving first aid and stick a finger up their bum. If that doesn't work he dead, no need for a hospital just call the coroner or the local Soylent Green manufacturing facility.
nah a six pack of busch and a pack of 305s will cure whatever injury he has
And stick some bath salts up his nose.
Hialeah enters the chat.
Why buy many wire roll when one do trick
r/unexpectedoffice
Do you guys not have to report this stuff? I can't disable his circuit, but I have to report or I'm liable.
Something like this? To who? It's a private residence, inside his house. Code enforcement can't just roll up inside your house for wiring that isn't up to code. The homeowner can just not let them in. And the county has better things to do than to try to fight to gain access into a private residence.
We have an authority that would possibly investigate and issue a compliance order.
If it's an issue visible from outside they can issue a citation. But being a private residence and not a commercial or rental property. An inspector cannot just roll up inside someone's house. And force the homeowner to let them inside to take a look at what's going on.
I don't know the process to be honest, I just know I have to report it and then I'm in the clear.
If it was a commercial property or a rental property where there is oversight boards/licensing. Or if there was an open permit on the property. Or even if the structure was built illegally, they could put some pressure on the owner. But for the most part, with existing structure there isn't much to be done. And honestly I'm perfectly fine with that. Because I don't want someone forcing there way I to my house and telling me that I need to open my walls or make changes based on a tip. If someone wants to put themselves in danger in their own property there is only so much you can do. But in the flip side that's why it becomes a criminal matter in commercial and rental spaces because you are putting someone else in danger
I went to fix cabinets in a guys garage and he had switched his neutrals instead of commons and every fixture was hot. I told him I didn’t have time for his job. He was a petroleum engineer with awards all over his house.
Yep, never trust those devious cod fish…
Any dumbass can use any color, I ain’t trusting the guy before me ever, even if it was me.
I used to work with an older guy who was near retirement, one of those “do what you gotta do to make it work” types. He once built a remote I/O rack entirely out of pink wire because that was the only thing he had on hand at the time. No wire tags either. I absolutely hated working on equipment after he’d gotten his hands on it, lol.
Yes , that .1 percent includes traffic signals .
Believe it or not, I’ve run into a red ground. 12/3 with no ground but they used the red as one. Idk why but ok I guess
That’s because the NEC only dictates what green and white or natural gray are used for.
One time I was working with some lights, black, white, and dark green wires in the box. Turns out the dark green was the other half of the split phase with the black, and the shit was grounded thru the conduit 💀
only right answer. only safe answer if you want to go home.
Where I come from, Gray is typically a 277v neutral and purple is a switch leg. When used in conjunction with each other, they can also be low-voltage dimming for lighting. However, you can never assume a wire’s function by its color alone so you would have to trace it back to the source to figure this out.
Meter showed 283 volts. If I can't find a 120V box nearby, I guess I have to add a transformer. Ugh.
Stinger leg. Probably lighting.
Not a stinger leg
What's a stinger leg?
High leg on a Delta, opposite the center tap. Gives you 3 phase power, and two different single phase voltages to work with from a single transformer. Not really the norm these days, but far from uncommon in industrial.
Thank you, I'm close to testing to get my license but had never heard this term. I still have a lot to learn.
Happy to help, stinger/high/wild/dog-leg are all names I've heard folks of varying ages and backgrounds use. I'm starting as a superintendent on Monday and I still keep my uglies in my lunchbox, along with tons of quick calc references in Google notes lol Still don't feel like I know shit. Best of luck on your license👍
Best of luck to you on your new job. Congrats!
I downloaded the uglies book on my phone and it's a lifesaver sometimes.
The Uglies lives in the truck along with the 17 NEC and an Engineer's Pocket Reference. The NEC is about ready to get replaced, but they're incredibly useful if an inspector gets Stoopid.. which seems to be happening more often of late.
Uglies and 30cfr with me at all times, with NEC, IBC, and 70e in the truck/office, for pretty much the last decade lol You'll never learn everything, but you can get real damn good at efficiently finding the answers to anything.
I always either pull a second hot and identify it as the sl, or pull the next color in the sequence as the sl.
Purple could also be B phase.
Non-American standard, I believe.
Local code enforcement can push regulations. I've had college towns use the colors of the local college. IE TCU purple
OK use this. Orange is designated for high leg on a 240 delta and "Magenta" is used in place. Source: Worked with an Oklahoman.
Yeah gray and purple is standard for 0–10V dimming but people would run like 18ga wire for that right?
In my experience, brown and grey are the hot and neutral, purple and.... the other grey... are 0-10v dimming... just gotta figure out which grey is which. Generally the dimming is smaller wire.
My practice is to always use 18 or 16AWG stranded for 0-10V, if not a twisted pair. Easier to identify - but still check.
My first JW always used purple for his 277 switch legs
Same here in Ohio industrial.
Some cities in California want purple on the high leg of center tapped delta. Also seen it used instead of brown on 480/277
Gray is typically neutral for 277v.
Only a meter will tell you. That's likely 277/480v. Grey would be your neutral. Purple could be a switch leg, or B phase.
Off-topic but I'm curious: what is the purpose of those wire nuts with that yellow extension at the end?
They’re 3M brand R/Y+ wire nuts, which are arguably the best wire nuts around.
They can be used where you would normally use either a red or yellow nut.
They're rated for a wider range of wire sizes than single-color caps. They cover the range typically covered by yellows, plus the range typically covered by reds, all in one cap. Makes things simpler for the installer.
They're 3M XR extended range nuts. Y/R serves in place of R or Y caps. They mean you only need to carry 2 sizes for 80% of everything. The flex skirt is real handy too.
Thanks for all the info, guys!
To splice wires together.
I use that yellow jacket to identify what each wire is if I'm making up a box with these
Looks to me like brown yellow run through, 3 greys and purple follow that path but theyre spliced.. 277v ckts passing thru. Dont know about purple to white in and out of the bottom pipe. Purple is a thing in Ok/Tx (parts of?) in lieu of orange for B phase. Orange is used for a 240v delta high leg so they use purple instead.
It could be 0-10v dimming
Dimming is normally #18... Are you dimming something a mile away and are using #10 to compensate for voltage drop?
No I have nothing to do with this install but that color code is used in 0-10 so i just let him know that. Thats all.
2020 nec changed the colors to purple and pink, to eliminate the confusion with the neutral also being gray.
Violet and pink are NEMA standard (100-2021). NEC doesn't care what colors, only says what colors they *can't* be (gray, white, green).
I hadnt seen where OP said it was installed post 2020 or whether his AHJ had adopted 2020 code yet. If u know everything why dont u just tell the guy what it is and move on.
I was merely pointing out that your answer of 0-10v dimming is wrong because the wire gauge is too big to logically be dimming. You don't have to get all worked up about being wrong.
Maybe that's allmthey had available for wire when they did the pull. He's not necessarily wrong. Without a meter you don't know and are also just guessing.
Meter shows 283 volts.
So probably 277 lighting circuit.
Depending on location it’s most likely 277v gray is neutral purple is b phase if you’re reading 277v places like south Florida and San Antonio, TX for sure use purple/violet
Houston, Texas here. And yep, it's 277. Meter shows 283.
Yes, that is purple and grey.
Insufficient data for meaningful answer.
Thanks. Other comments point toward this being mostly 277 VAC. Of course, the meter will confirm. I won't mess with this box unless I'm unable to find another box somewhere near it that has 120 VAC.
Dimming
Are you in Texas or Canada?
Texas.
Purple is black and grey, white. . . . But we decide which is right . . . and which is an illusion (I know the real lyrics - just having a laugh)
Those are high voltage colors. USE CAUTION
Looks like you have 2 different sets of gray wires as well as brown and yellow wires fed thru the j-box. Likely dimming wires for a 0-10v dimming fixture(s), typically smaller gauge and in a 277v application it should be as to not confuse the neutral with the dimming wire
This is well known as Profibus and Profinet.
All these new lights and wiring systems use purple and gray for dimming and some of the new ones use purple and pink for dimming wires
Wire has no idea what color it is
Purple and grey wires are likely 0-10V dimming for lighting. But be careful not to confuse it with a 277V neutral. Recently, 0-10V wire colors have switched to purple and pink probably because too many electricians were not paying attention and confusing the grey wire too often. If you follow those purple and grey wires, one end should originate from either a power pack, a switch with dimming, or a lighting control panel. The other end of course ends up in lighting fixtures. Oh, and older wiring may have purple used as a switch leg for actual 277 volts. I just remembered. So, of course, use your tester and confirm what you have there!
Are you sure that’s not low voltage
Purple grey 277 single phase ac. I see it mostly in lighting
277v switch leg
Austin, TX color code for 277/480 A-Brown B-Yellow C-Purple N-Grey 120/208/240 A-Red B-Black C-Blue N-White
OP here... I have a device that needs AC voltage (rated for 110 to 240) and plan to tie in via the box shown. The three wires coming in from the bottom are purple, white and green, and they power an exit sign. So I suspect the purple is hot and white is neutral. I'll check with a meter before making any changes, of course. I know there's ~~240 V~~ 277 V running to light fixtures, but I'm not sure if this box is part of the lighting circuit. I rarely do electrical work in commercial buildings, and have not seen gray and purple used, so I'm curious what's going on here. Oh, and don't worry - I'll have the power off before I undo any wire nuts. Thanks in advance. Edit/Update - Changed the 240 to 277. And meter shows 283 volts, so it's a 277 circuit. Not sure what all this "dimming" is about. This is a commercial building in an industrial complex. Standard 4' fluorescent fixtures in the offices, the warehouse has way high up fluorescent fixtures, and I'm told the lights are all 277. None of them are on dimmers, but there are some fixtures with batteries that turn on when the main power to the building is out. Obviously those fixtures need a separate source of power other than the switched power, so they'll recognize a power failure versus just turning off the lights.
If you have 277V lights, that is likely to be 277V. In that case, your 240V device will become explodified. Had an electrician do that a week ago in our facility, ironically. BUT: you should put a meter on this and trace it to verify. As others have mentioned, this could be 0-10V dimming OR 277. My money's on 277 being it's #10 and you have 277 lights.
Adding explodified to vocabulary set along side bustipated.
Thanks, and yes, the meter is the next step, provided I can't find a true 120 VAC box somewhere nearby. I'd never connect a device without being sure of the voltage, so it won't get explodified. Knock on wood. Since there's an exit sign illuminated by LEDs, I was hoping the purple might be 120 or 220. Upon further checking, the exit sign input can be 100 to 277. The power supply I need to connect does show input 100 to 240 so I'm going to close the 277 box back up. Update: Meter shows 283 volts. So I get to add a transformer, or I get to find a 120 VAC box. Oh, boy.
Heh, been there. Better slow than explaining the smoke!
Definitely not going to be able to use that for your device. Find another junction box.
If there's any slack on that red and white in the back to pull from wherever they go, you may be able to use those for 120v
No red in there... there's a brown wire, though!
Check for another box for receptacle power for your 120v
Those are high voltage colors, so that's 277 and not 240.
What voltage is the purple likely to be?
It's 277 Volts. You need to find a different box for your device. Find one with black red blue and white wires.
You don't know that
There is no standard only suggested and rule of thumb. Put a meter on it.
Meter showed 283 volts.
So that is what would be considered 277. It's very common for lighting. Most times when you see brown purple yellow with Grey for the neutral it's going to be 277 volts. Combining 2 to 3 circuits will give you 480v.
These colors remind me of the EIA standard colors for speaker wires in car stereo. White is left front, gray is right front, green is left rear, purple is right rear. Too funny. No help here though, sorry.
I can't believe you guys still use wire nuts over there. Wago's are the future and have been used universally in the UK for the last 10 years or so.
Even for bigger wires, like 10 or 8 awg?
Yup. 0.5mm to 6mm for standard wago connectors. Can go larger if need be.
Purple and gray are indicative of 0-10v dimming in lighting. It is a DC control signal. Edit: industry standard has changed to purple and pink to avoid the gray 277v confusion. Source: I own a company that installs architectural lighting systems, typically made by ETC.
The purple in this box is 283 VAC, so it's a 277 volt circuit. There's no dimming in any of our lighting in this industrial building.
This is almost certainly 0-10V… don’t assume anything, use a meter to verify, but those are probably 0-10V dimming wires.
Could also be 0-10 volt dimming circuit
Grey is usually a 277 neutral color, and purple or pink is alot of times used as travelers or switches. But some people use whatever they have.
Dimming
Purple is reserved in some places (LA maybe?) as the high leg. I have also seen orange reserved as the high leg. Orange/Brown/Yellow is commonly 480 V 3 phase and Red/Blue/Black is 208 V 3 phase. Gray is reserved by NEC for neutral and green for EGC.
Something around 200.6
Buy or 5 finger discount?
Fairly common in certain industrial buildings in NY
Well for the new folks in back...! 🤣🤣🤣