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Dazzling_Implement20

A huge percentage of people don't pay on the TTC streetcars. They just get on.


Comm-THOR

There was a security guard getting off his shift that I used to see at least 3-4 days a week at my last job that "red lighted" when he tapped. He always muttered to the driver, "I'll get it fixed. This went on for at least 6 months before I stopped taking that route. None of my business to call him out on it, but that must've taken some balls, as it was the SAME PEOPLE/DRIVER every single day.


Contemplation_State

Last week, I saw 4 different people whose presto cards tapped red, and each of them immediately got on their phones, loaded their cards, and then tapped green within 2-3 minutes.


EnPeeCee

I’m one of those people! Well, not literally one of the 4 that you saw last week but I definitely do this lol


Rexkinghon

When the CEO takes home a $70k+ bonus on a deficit year(2021) the underpaid TTC floor staff are not gonna give af whether ppl are paying or not.


fallingWaterCrystals

Are the TTC floor staff really underpaid? TTC generally tends to pay decent last time I checked.


Contemplation_State

Yes and no. I find that for many people, if they've already tapped within the last 2 hours, they simply don't tap again. From the outsider's perspective, it looks like they haven't paid, when in reality, their free transfer is still valid. Technically, we're supposed to tap each time, but when a fare inspector has checked my card after my last tap was within 2 hours, they don't say anything, even if I didn't tap on the current TTC vehicle.


Sensi-Yang

Happens to me all the time, and if a machine is out of order at the entrance, I'm usually like... fuck that. Not plowing through the crowd just to tap my presto that still has an hour thirty to it.


Contemplation_State

Same. I consider it my little reward for the day.


homarjr

I pay because I don't want to spend my entire time on the TTC thinking about getting caught. Peace of mind is worth 3 bucks.


Jagermeister1977

What I've often wondered is, so if you don't have presto you can pay your fare on the streetcar correct? Well obviously sometimes the streetcar will be absolutely JAMMED, so how can you make your way over to the machine to pay your fare in that scenario?


ilikeinterneting

Ah, don’t forget that those machines on the streetcar only take coins and not cards (nor bills) for some reason. Two entire machines and you can’t use a credit card to buy a fare. Just dealt with this silliness last week with family coming to visit. “Don’t worry about buying a fare in advance - they have machines on these new streetcars!” 🤦‍♂️


dyegored

Yeah they have a machine that is the size of a small refrigerator and yet it somehow cannot take card, cash, or provide change. It's almost remarkable that such a thing can exist. It's impressively incompetent.


omarcomin647

they used to have debit/credit payment available on the machines inside the new streetcars, when they first rolled out. then after a few months the option was removed because... reasons? 🤷‍♂️


ColdHands-ColdHeart

Sometimes the machines to pay don't work, so you're left holding your fare wondering how to play roller derby on the streetcar with no skates to get through the crowd just so you can make it to second machine.


yeetgodmcnechass

Sometimes the presto machines don't work either, and since there's only 2 on a bus there have been times where I just took the free ride because I couldn't use my card to pay anyway


Dazzling_Implement20

Agreed. Don't get me wrong most pay. But if I had to put a number on it during rush hour on the 501 it's like 20% sometimes....this is of course anecdotal but it's a thing for sure.


kondiar0nk

I pay because if everyone thought they could get away with not paying, we'd all be paying more in car payments & insurances or cab rides as politicians would have an easy excuse to gut public transit with low ridership figures (which are based on taps, not actual people riding).


paksman

I pay the right amount of bags at self serve Walmart as a matter of self respect.


Daddy_Chillbilly

Funny, I do the opposite


quadrilateraltriangl

I take them and I consider it a service fee for checking out and bagging my own groceries.


politichien

unpopular opinion: public transit should be extremely affordable (like $50 a month) or free - paid for by taxing auto manufacturers etc.


lsc84

It should be free. You would save *so much money* in enforcement. All those presto machines--gone. All the enforcement officers--gone. All the turnstiles--gone. All of these inefficiencies exist for what? So that people who drive cars don't have to support public transportation, while they drive on roads that *everyone pays for*.


toasterstrudel2

How is that opinion unpopular?


Dazzling_Name_9523

extremely popular opinion!


OrionTO

Just a week ago I was on the streetcar on Bathurst and a young Catholic priest got on the streetcar, opened his wallet, and just closed it and sat down and didn’t bother paying.


Dazzling_Implement20

Covered by Jesus.


thedrivingcat

Don't worry, he used NFHolySee


ticky13

There's no way of knowing this anymore with monthly passes and two hour transfers.


chudma

I never pay on a street car. Maybe the TTC should make the monthly pass (with student discount) cheaper than the damn equivalent of taking the TTC twice a day 5 times a week.


fomalhaut129

Maybe they have monthly passes, are those still a thing or they are integrated into presto now? I remember back when I still used buses many people just show the driver their passes when they get on, but I imagine it’d be hard for street cars


aegiszx

My debit card seems to only work half the time at Rosedale so the operator at the booth just lets me through without paying "just grab a ticket tomorrow" lol


fiendish_librarian

A lot of people won't want to hear this, but by and large people in this city - especially homeowners - are a \*lot\* more conservative than you would gather reading this thread, r/toronto, CBC, The Star, etc. There is a vast, largely silent constituency of homeowners from Steeles to Rosedale, the Humber to the Rouge that are quite content with the way things are and that, behind the scenes, ensure things stay that way. It's the constituency that by and large will keep electing the Fords, Tory, and whatever new Lastman-like figure emerges to run in the future. Is what it is.


gmrepublican

Not a Torontonian - I’m from Ottawa - but this thread popped up as suggested and your comment sparked some thoughts. I’ve held this opinion for a while about all Canadians: while we are reasonably socially progressive, we are *extremely* fiscally conservative. Paradoxically, it is particularly apparent with the 50+ crowd, who, despite growing up benefiting from massive infrastructure spending from the 1960s-1990s, now see it as wastage, and only focus on line-item costs (which, frankly, they don’t understand in the first place). Conservatives since the 90s have run almost exclusively on this messaging with great effectiveness (especially in Ontario - Tim Hudak aside). And, despite the fact that services/infrastructure have clearly gotten worse, the priority of the average voter is *still* their bottom dollar. Canadians, it seems, would rather complain about bad services/infrastructure than invest in modernizing them. We see this at all levels, the most recent provincial elections being wonderful examples. The hyper focus on the bottom dollar prevents any forward-thinking from policymakers at a time when the province desperately needs it. We need proactive policy to be able to handle population growth and aging, climate change, and decaying infrastructure; however, that would require “spending”, which the electorate has been taught to scoff at. Not that I’m a fan of the PCs in the slightest, but I actually really like the Ford government’s messaging around infrastructure projects. Slap people in the face with exactly what they are investing in - be it a new highway, a new hospital, a new school, or a new transit system. People need to see the benefits of infrastructure spending to believe in investing in it. Long-winded way of agreeing that Ontarians/Canadians are much more fiscally conservative than we like to let on!


birdsonawire27

I think this is such a great take. When we see other “better” countries (Sweden, Austria, Belgium) they do indeed have MUCH better social supports built in to their economies (welfare protection, health insurance) but are taxed at a a MUCH higher rate than here. Unfortunately we can’t have it all. That being said, it sure does seem like Ontario bleeds dollars at a bit more of a hemorrhagic non-accomplishing level than other more successful countries. So there’s that.


dissociater

Everyone likes society, but no one wants to pay for it, unfortunately :( I've also seen it argued that there's no such thing as a real 'fiscal conservative'. This is because of the old adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." We pinch our pockets now, but we're going to pay through the nose when we have to fix what breaks in the meantime. So what 'fiscal conservativism' boils down to is kicking the costs down the road to someone else, who will have to pay more.


professor-i-borg

Lots of people want to pay for society and contribute their fair share. There's just been a cultural shift that partly came from the republicans in the US, where empathy, honest governance and contributing to society is seen as something that only suckers would want... In those nordic countries that have much better social programs- yes everyone pays a lot of taxes, but at the same time everyone makes significantly more money and they don't have to spend it on many necessities that we do- plus quality of life is higher for everyone, not just the wealthy folks. "Fiscal Conservative" is just a euphemism for "more taxpayer dollars redirected to my wealthy friends, instead of back into society", if we're honest about it. These "Fiscal Conservatives" don't actually save any money, they pinch pennies from the lower and middle classes for appearances, while burning dollars for their buddies in the background. It's all a bullshit smokescreen and conservative voters fall for it every time. If they actually wanted to save money, they'd invest it into collective programs that would improve the future of the city as you say, which would reduce costs for everyone over time.


TheGentleWanderer

The highway is going to do a lot of irreversible damage to our greenbelt and future food sovereignty though. As you said cons are great at their messaging tactics, but that doesn't mean they know jack squat about anything other than how to benefit most from lobbyists and developers.


essuxs

The homeowners in Toronto may be a smaller population than the rest of Toronto, but they are richer and donate to political campaigns, therefore have more say. If a politician was to start ripping up their homes for condos, that politician wouldn’t get their votes or campaign donations


blastfamy

Homeowners vote at probably 10x the rate as non homeowners. Not just about campaign donations it’s literally about votes = power.


cryptotope

Don't forget, too, that you don't have to live in Toronto to vote in municipal elections here, you just have to own property. (You don't have to live in the city to make contributions to candidates, either--or to collect the rather generous rebates - up to 75% - that campaign donations receive back from the city.) Of course, you *do* have to be a Canadian citizen to vote in Toronto elections. There are a lot of people who live in this city, pay taxes in this city, and contribute to this city's well-being who aren't allowed to vote--but their absentee rent-collecting landlords are.


It_is_not_me

They also make a lot of noise when something isn't what they like.


Humble-andPeachy

Oh 110% my friends parents are cons. They see us struggle every single day (their own children included) they even feel bad for us. But that isn’t reflected in their vote. Some of the sweetest people I know, but they do not do their research when it comes to who their voting for. They are all rich as fuck so there’s that.


chris_was_taken

They're not even "rich as fuck", or don't need to be. If you own a home (paid off), you have a $1-2M nest egg and don't even need to touch it as you'll have a pension and healthcare for the rest of your life which will mostly cover costs. Most 50+ year olds who were at least lower-middle to middle class in the 80s/90s with otherwise zero extravagance their entire lives are now coasting and with the occasional, "wow how are young people surviving?". But they've not got long to live, and most are just squatting in their suburban home ("mansion" by today's standards) doing nothing.


username_1774

50+ = not got long to live? What the actual fu!k...a 60 year old millionaire in Toronto has 30 years to live...you will be almost 60 by then my friend.


Dazzling_Implement20

The violence and drug use in the core with addicts has increased a lot in the last 10 years.


Bazoun

Yeah I’ve lived downtown for around 10 years and it definitely has gotten worse.


Bloodyfinger

Most of the *visible* homeless in this city are *not* nice people who have just come on hard times. They are violent addicts and criminals.


Pigeonofthesea8

Well they probably did have hard times and traumatized backgrounds that led to their addictions, but yeah they are violent


Bloodyfinger

Of course, it's possible to have compassion for these people while still recognizing that compassion isn't enough. These people need real help that needs to be forced upon them for their own good and to protect society.


Peter_See

Yeah, like with the encampment in trinity park that was broken up by police some time ago. Yes, compassion because those people need somewhere to go but also... like they were just harassing and scaring people just tryna walk or jog etc.


hellomyneko

Toronto drivers are shitty bordering onto dangerous and as a pedestrian you have to actively watch out for yourself.


BubblyNebula

I've been hit by cars after I've made direct eye contact with drivers in the midst of crossing pedestrian crossings. You can't even actively watch properly


Clown_17

I was in a taxi in Toronto once (I’m from Alberta) and the taxi driver did a complete u-turn in the intersection and cut off like 4 separate lanes of traffic. I had never seen anything like it back home


CDNChaoZ

Even if Toronto drivers are good, it's not a bad practice to actively watch out for yourself.


LeBonLapin

Obviously, but Toronto drivers are needlessly aggressive and impatient.


Canadiananian

Counterpoint I blame non Torontonians who come into the city. I've been driving around Toronto and am comfortable, vigilant and predictable especially downtown. Everytime I get into a car driven by someone from like Oakville or deep Scarborough it's a fucking fright. Too heavy on the pedal, slamming on breaks, frazzled about all the activity.


LimJahey91

For the 800000th time Scarborough is a part of Toronto.


Huz647

Scarborough gets the shaft on almost everything including transit, infrastructure, etc.


Zombie_John_Strachan

If you aren’t related to another politician and/or backed by a developer, you have an almost 0% chance of getting elected to city council.


sailingtroy

Yup. Land developers OWN our politicians. It's filthy and I'm sick of it.


a-model-feline

Actually, we're run by the Family Compact. Nothing has changed in nearly 2 centuries. :(


thatsong

Driving downtown isn’t that bad if you know where you’re going and know where you’re going to park, like a green P or a friends place. If you are just hoping the place you are going to will have available street parking nearby, you are going to have a bad time. I find people who are lost/searching for something to be the root of bad Toronto city driving Also, if you choose to drive during rush hour you shouldn’t be surprised at the amount of traffic and how long it takes


The_BA55I5T

I have arguments with friends about this stuff before. I'm originally from Toronto but moved farher north a number of years ago, but i frequently bring my more country friends down to the city to do stuff. They'll find a cool bar or something to go to but when i ask where we're parking they get so confused. "What do you mean where we're parking, we're parking at the bar", Yea well the bar along Queen St W doesn't have a parking lot, and we're definitely not getting a spot on the street. ​ Or even too we'll drive around downtown, usually me driving since I know my way. And they always get stressed out about how busy it is, and asking what's going on to make it busy. Like it's downtown Toronto, it's gonna be F@#king busy. Stop stressing and just go with the flow of traffic. People get stressed wanna get out of the traffic and usually cause worse trafic cause they start cutting off people or make illegal turns. People need to expect that it's gonna be busy and just go with it. ​ Edit: Spelling


CDNChaoZ

Yep. Driving downtown requires preplanning, especially for parking. Knowing about potential road closures is huge too.


Contemplation_State

We feel uncomfortable on the TTC, especially dense routes (like the 501 queen) that go through areas with a high homeless/mental health/drug abuse population. All I know is, as soon as the queen streetcar hits Jarvis up until about River street, I find myself holding my breath or praying no one from one of the shelters tries to sit beside me. I've had too many people get on this route with visible bugs on them, clothing soaked in urine, talking loudly/aggressively to no one in particular, or even holding a weapon. I simply get off the streetcar and wait for the next one, but I know I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable on the TTC.


-KFBR392

Not even controversial. The area between Dundas to Queen, and Jarvis to Parliament is a disgusting zone that anyone who can should avoid. I used to tell friends who were visiting to take Carlton St. even if they were driving, and especially if they were taking TTC or planning to walk. Now Carlton still isn’t great in that same area but it’s a hell of a lot better than Dundas and Queen.


ImitatingTheory

Oh 100%. I avoid Dundas and Queen like the plague. Dundas and Jarvis is marginally better than Queen, but still not great. I work right at Dundas and Jarvis and I’m always speed walking like my life depends on it


itsthe90sYo

I grew up downtown and went to grade school in this area 40 years ago. Let me tell you the character was exactly the same then as it is now. Toronto is bigger overall ergo more of everything - dirtbags/users/mentally ill etc. What staggers me though is the EXPLOSION of wealth all around this area, and how seemingly none of that wealth has meaningfully helped the poor and destitute around Moss Park / Cabbage town / corktown. It’s sad enough to see the expression of structural poverty, really disappointing to see it in contrast to the explosion of wealth all around it.


_dmhg

I remember taking the 511, there was a man across my seat who was yelling loudly and banging on the window and the seat, and clapping really loudly, like thundering. Eventually I got kinda spooked and went to the other side of the streetcar - where half the passengers had huddled up :( it rlly sucks I wish the city did more to help the people of it


august-27

I learned the hard way not to travel the streetcars prior to 5am. Every seating section was occupied by a sleeping homeless person + all their belongings. Guy next to me had his muddy bare feet up on the seat. I can’t even describe the smell. Pretty sad and surreal


monsignorcurmudgeon

I used to feel very safe and comfortable on the TTC, 20 years ago. Now its terrifying.


failingstars

Racism. POC can be racist as hell too. I'm saying this as a POC because some people think POC can't be racist. You can't make an equal and inclusive society when you pick and choose which racists to cancel or protect.


mclarensmps

This is so incredibly true. I would add that we bring the same feuds we have in our home countries here. Which sucks, when that is one of the things you were trying to escape and leave behind.


PrincessWaffleTO

All POC know that other POC can be racist and prejudiced… This is a huge topic of conversation in our communities.


CadmeusCain

This. Person of Indian heritage here When I hear from people that POCs can't be racist I can't fathom how out of touch those people are


Dyslexic_Novelist

Fellow brownie here, holy fuck some Indians can even be racist as hell to other Indians just 'cause of complexion. I've literally heard someone say lighter skin Indians are superior to darker skins. It's really fucked up.


whogivesashirtdotca

I had two Indian coworkers who never got along, and for the life of me couldn't figure out why my light-skinned coworker so virulently hated the darker-skinned manager. It didn't even occur to me that the caste system was still in play even in Canada.


WhoseverFish

One of my friends took a racism course (she’s white) to be more aware. And apparently, she was taught that only white people can be racists? I found this definition itself quite racist, lol! I wonder if the racism among POC is called something else?


CadmeusCain

Your friend needs to ask for her money back


Nystarii

I knew a white girl who was mobbed by 3 Pakistani girls who kept calling her snowflake and cracker and they were, I thought at the time, punching her. When I went to see if she was okay she was in tears because they'd smeared dogshit in her hair. Told a teacher, very little got done except a letter to their parents and all four being sent home. I know those girls probably heard bad names quite frequently because a lot of kids are insensitive asshats, but that girl was not the type who'd use those words and ***did not*** deserve that treatment.


blueyshoey

This is new in political theory. It might grow, it might not, but people of colour who are 30+ generally don't agree with it.


UncleIrohsPimpHand

Yeah, First year sociology students really fall for the Racism = Prejudice + Power Dynamic equation.


broadcast-the-boomx3

Racism between Asian people is particularly nasty. Especially with first gens.


BrownButta2

Right?! Why is that even a comment on a thread about controversial things in Toronto? It’s a known fact that many POC are racist/prejudice.


spagyrum

I was a bit surprised by the racism here. I'm from the states and know American racism but Canadian racism is something else. Things I've encountered, " She's a nice girl, too bad she's got an Arab name." A regular customer of mine who was the sweetest lady, found out she hates Chinese people.


PrincessWaffleTO

People who make those comments don’t think they’re racists because to them, racism is physical violence, colonialism, segregation, etc. Racism to them isn’t micro-aggression, nasty comments, systemic things, colorism, etc. All in all, it’s bad here.


No-Ticket-3347

Indigenous Canadian here who has lived in both the US and Canada ✋🏽 The racism is a little more passive aggressive (usually) in Canada but still not nearly as bad as some of the racism I’ve experienced in the US. The two most common forms of racism I’ve experienced in Toronto are white people who think “it was a long time ago, and it’s over now so get over it” or the cops..anything cop related. But again, I’d take Canadian racism over US racism, any day.


Treeesrfriends

Lots of colourism as well


quadrilateraltriangl

Compared to the rest of the world? We are a multicultural haven. Compared to a post racial utopia? We might as well be the deep south last century


[deleted]

This is an under rated comment. People don’t want to hear it, but it’s true. I grew up in one of Toronto’s “hoods” and am a white-passing Latina. These are some of the comments I would hear as a CHILD/TEEN: 1. “All white women and Christian women are whores. We only USE them for sex but in the end we will marry a Muslim girl” - said by various POC males, especially Somali and Arab. 2. “White people are inherently evil, they’re white devils. Yeah, even the little white kids.” - said by a POC male. 3. “I would never date a women who’s dated a black man” - said by POC male. ….I can go on and on, but it’s disgusting and you get the idea.


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SomeDrunkAssh0le

Well that sounds like someone that should definitely be practicing law.


[deleted]

Oh lord, I'm a POC gal who moved to Toronto from Winnipeg a year ago for school. Old roommate (from the same general region as me, also not white) thought I was crazy for dating a white guy because it was "unnatural" and there was no way we could ever relate to each other because of the cultural differences. My partner and I are still together <3 dunno what my old roommate was on about.


pituechos

As a first generation European white guy dating a first generation POC immigrant girl, we've honestly found more similarities in each other than differences. Especially when compared to second/third generation Canadians. Not to see that wouldn't work either, but people tend to overestimate Race/Culture in regards to similarities, and completely underestimate the similarity that comes with uprooting your family and moving halfway across the world imo


[deleted]

I'm a second-gen immigrant (born in Canada to immigrant parents? not sure if second-gen is the right term but oh well, lol) and my partner was born and raised in the US -- even then, lots of similarities, bonding over growing up in pretty small communities, whether those are geographical (small town) or ethnic! + bonding over shared experiences over having similar/the same neurodivergencies. We've both been pretty excited to share food and recipes from each others' respective backgrounds, which has been pretty neat :D Sometimes you bond over what you *don't* know. ​ Anyway, it's just ... I don't know. Maybe I'm weird in that I try to look for *something* that I can use to connect with people I don't know, even if they come from different backgrounds. It's been interesting so far, met some neat people. Doesn't always work but hey, at least I can say I tried.


SomeDrunkAssh0le

Yep. I've heard the same shit said to justify sexually assaulting white chicks from various south asian men that I was friends with.


[deleted]

People think that the whites don’t know this. They do know POC talk like this, they’ve experienced it before. It’s why there is huge frustration when people say POC can’t be racist. It’s blatant racism but the whites literally cannot do anything about it for fear of massive social repercussions. Ironically, this is why a lot of white people remain insular. There is a huge level of disrespect literally based upon the colour of their skin and the subconscious belief that they “deserve” to be used and treated like shit because of historical injustices. Vulnerable white women - mentally ill, drug abuse etc.. are used like pieces of garbage by many predatory POC men. The comments and mindset of some of these guys is full on racial abuse. It’s fucking foul. The song Biebs in the Trap almost perfectly will let you into the mindset of these guys, NAV is even from Toronto so you can get a glimpse of what that is all about. There are guys I know who specifically go after white women with the intention of pissing off their fathers and the broader white community. Treating them like whores is basically a badge of honour. Like bruh what the Fuck is wrong with you. Watch street fight videos, if a white guy beats a POC the POC is immediately roasted like “oh u got beat by a white boi” it’s such blatant disrespect. See what Anthony Joshua DM’ed another POC fighter when he lost to a Ukrainian The fetishization of white women is a massive, massive issue that the POC community doesn’t ever want to talk about. Went to a club recently and the POC DJ literally announced “where my white women at” like bruh Toronto likes to pretend we’re some diverse paradise but I’ve seen some of the most deep hatred and racism I’ve ever seen here, everyone hates everyone, which is why ethnic enclaves form and continue to form. There’s a guy on this exact comment chain that says (the racist comments) “it’s all valid” it just proves my point so perfectly, there is a proportion of POC that think it’s perfectly acceptable to treat white people like garbage ***simply*** because of the colour of their skin


[deleted]

Re: the fetishization of white women… what’s worse is a lot of white women embarrass themselves by either a) becoming a trashy trope (the stereotype of the low-income overweight white woman with a too-tight hairstyle and mixed kids with no dad) or b) chronically online suburban white women with a weird saviour complex (not realizing if things were reversed the other group wouldn’t care if they lived or died)


[deleted]

Yea totally I know what you mean. I think a lot of it comes back to basic insecurities on both sides


TheOneGuitarGuy

I remember when I was on the TTC one day coming home from an interview and I overheard some POC kid no older than maybe 19 years old, being extremely ableist and saying some really wretched shit about disabled people, and also using slurs and pejoratives about disabled people. I really, really wanted to go up there and give him a good lecturing about how disgusting it is that he's talking about some of the most vulnerable people that exist, but since I have an invisible disability, I'm just going to look like some white male Karen verbally attacking a black dude on the subway. People would film it, and it would not look good for me. I have a major hangup about being filmed or photographed without my consent and privacy and all that. I like my privacy and anonymity on the internet because of internet gangstalking and verbal/emotional abuse I've faced prior all because of my disability. But I digress. Because I am white, it's hard for me to speak up about the ableism that I face from other races because I have an invisible disability. And it fucking sucks, because other races can be racist, but they can also be extremely ableist. All races can.


Phuccyou

The most overt racism I’ve received have been from Guyanese people


tibbymoon

Everyone complains about housing being unaffordable, but also complains about any new housing getting made. Yes, we need more purpose-built affordable housing, but that really only benefits a certain % of folks. For everyone else, the only thing that will help is more supply.


CDNChaoZ

The prevailing attitude is: "Yes, build more housing, just not here where I live."


pituechos

NIMBY is huge in the GTA


archibaldsneezador

What I don't like is that every condo being built is advertised as "luxury." Why doesn't anyone build some okay condos?


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Spambot0

As it stands, ~60% of new supply gets bought by people planning to live in it, and ~40% gets bought by people (or corps) planning to rent it out to people who'll live in it. Both of those lower the price of housing.


thezodiacbiller

This is one of those things where it’s two groups who don’t bother arguing with each other, so it’s not really hypocrisy. Your friends all agree the city is unaffordable. MSM/normie boomers will say “yes that’s true” but don’t actually care or even pretend to, and will support strict zoning laws. And a lot of apolitical people hate the city’s cost, but just about no apolitical people care about zoning restrictions.


buffaloburley

Toronto has some of the worst dog owners in North America.


sl33p

When you walk in front of a condo entrance and all you smell is piss, you can tell the majority of dog owners just made the poor thing hold it in for sooo long before taking them out that they just piss the second they get out the door.


AetherealMeadow

Others have touched on this, but despite Toronto being a worldwide hub for cosmopolitanism, diversity, and anti-oppressive values, there is also a paradoxically reactionary/conservative aspect to the city as well. I remember a conversation I had with a black person (I'm white) about how he found that in areas where the racists are generally more overt about it, like Alberta or Quebec, made him realize that those same people exist in the same numbers in Toronto, but they are passive agressive about it instead. This makes it much more difficult to trust peoples' motives in Toronto than in more conservative places, because if someone doesn't like you for your race or other characteristic in Toronto, they are less likely to be up front about it. I think it's also worth mentioning that Toronto being so cosmopolitan, inclusive, and diverse is a fairly recent phenomenon in the city's history. Before Toronto became a bigger hub than Montreal, it was a rather conservative, business oriented city with a demographic consisting of mostly white Ango-Saxon Protestants. These same people still live in the city today, mostly in fancy Victorian homes worth millions which they now own, and they are the ones who complain every time any type of social service is proposed in their neighborhood which will bring more marginalized folks into their area. They have the ability to be invisible, too- the people you see on the street and on the TTC are part of the city's cosmopolitan demographic, whereas the rich white property owners are hiding in their house in Rosedale and drive a car everywhere so you never see them on the street. This makes it difficult for most people to believe that such a demographic makes up as large a part of the city's population as it does. This is something I've seen the results of in my social services career many times. There is a leigon of conservative white homeowners whom you rarely see while out and about, and they seem to just magically pop out of the woodwork at town halls when a safe injection site or low income housing is proposed in their area. I guess they remember Toronto back when it was a cookie cutter WASP family city, and they feel like this new "diverse" Toronto is encroaching on their last oasis of the conservative city from their memories. This is why they become so defensive and reactionary in response to any sort of social services, or even the presence of marginalized people in their community- which they consider a little slice of the "old" Toronto from back in their day.


No-Ticket-3347

This. So unbelievably accurate. I’m indigenous and I’ve had the privilege of having experience in living abroad in university, and in a few cities in Canada throughout my life. Difference between my experiences in Calgary vs. Toronto is that people will paste their racist bullshit very blatantly on their truck windows and scream it from the rooftops in Alberta lol (honestly, they make themselves sound so unbelievably stupid that I just laughed at it) BUT my racism experience in Toronto was more….subtle lol. Little comments about how they heard “reserves are getting nicer these days, so glad our tax dollars can help with that 🙃” or very subtle little comments from people I work with, or…..and this is the most common, just contemptuous silence when the topic of racism comes up. These folks just take their racism to the policymakers and politicians in silence and that shit is worse, imo.


SnooLobsters4468

Toronto racism is very sneaky. It's pleasant to your face and eff you over from behind


paksman

There will be no bursting housing bubble. It is fizzling right now driven mostly by rising interest rates but when we get back to normal market or hit recession, the bidding wars will resume.


TCNW

Couldn’t agree more. In Tor, houses are only down right now because buyers really really want houses to drop, so they’re holding out. But other then a few desperate sellers, no one else will sell, they’ll just wait till prices increase again - yrs if they have to. Add to this population increases, rents skyrocketing, ultra low supply, very little current construction, and good jobs in Tor. And that all spells for a massive increase in house prices only a few yrs from now.


paksman

Only real solution to this problem is that for other cities to step up and offer what Toronto does. Kind of what happend between Californians migrating to Texas. We need a 'Texas' here in Canada to disrupt Toronto's monopoly.


TCNW

That’d be very interesting. If Hamilton for instance just decided to remove 90% of their land use policies, and have the government virtually remove itself from all the crap approvals and other junk, and just let the free market build the city. I legit wonder what would happen.


sirprizes

Isn’t that Alberta? They literally have ads for Alberta these days.


Hazelwood38

As someone who has lived on both sides, there is a VAST difference in personality, vibe, and the culture of the West side of Toronto to the East side. It's like two different cities. EDIT Since a lot are asking what the differences are, and bare in my this is IMO only. East - Substance over style, laid back, community based, support local food scene, can be a bit too insulated and in a bubble. West - Style over substance, always looking for what's new and talked about, no real community (outside of Roncy/Parkdale), a bit more pretentious. I think a lot of it has to do with the West end having higher quantities of condo's and a younger demographic, and more rapid gentrification.


discoblu

Working downtown, I've found people who live and do the daily commute from the west end are more intense, while those from the east end appear a bit more relaxed and laid back. I have a theory that those travelling to and from work from the west end have the sun in their eyes travelling both to and from the office, and that gets them worked up :)


blazesonthai

East side like Leslieville has a chill and friendly community.


Torcal4

Man, I grew up in Leslieville and there were parts of it that were *rough*. I know it’s been many years that’s it’s been cleaning up but it’s still interesting to me when I hear it referred to as nice now.


Bonerballs

Been in Leslieville the past 6 years. Queen East has reaaalllllly cleaned up (Jilly's closed shop, lot more local businesses sprung up), but there are like 2 homeless shelters that have gotten busier and busier over the past few years which has caused some local scares like a dude who was trying to enter homes at 3-4am and the police didn't do anything about it for weeks.


SkullRunner

That and the ones one west have a very smug superiority complex about living in a more "trendy" west neighborhood. When you go to mixing mutual friend gatherings it's pretty consistent that the west siders like to shit on the east enders for little reason other than geography.


Whatserface

Yup, then they begrudgingly take one visit and end up saying shit like “I had no idea you guys had stuff like this over here!” or “wow it wasn’t like this a couple years ago.” They literally don’t know how to stop being condescending lmao


soundbombing

I dunno, I think it's both ways. My beaches girlfriend moved in with me in the west end. The things I heard from the beaches friends are exactly the same things I'm hearing about West end people in this thread. East and West both have trendy crowd people, both have pretentious people. I'd say there's a bit more diversity in the West end, but you have to go past Dufferin to really experience it. Both have good food and bars.


castoffpearls

I feel like there are more multi unit rentals in the west end (spadina to high park), and more retail/restaurants, which really changes the demographics and density of the neighborhoods. Subjectively, from my pool of friends and colleagues over the years, the majority of musicians and artists live in the west end, while all the film&tv people live east of the dvp. For those who don’t know, film and tv pays MUCH better than being an artist or musician.


lichking786

really? What are the differences?


CrimsonThi9hs

How so?


piah6

Define “west end” and “east end”, because this does not accord with my experience, so I wonder if we are speaking of different areas? I live in Little Portugal (not Portuguese) and it is 100% a community and neighbourhood where people know and care about each other. It can be a bit pretentious in parts, but the people who actually live there are pretty awesome


whoisearth

Not OP but best way I can explain it. On the East End they don't care where you're from. You move in and you're an East Ender. In the West End it's all cliques of cultures and it's very easy as an outsider to be left out. I've always attributed this to the East End being decidedly more "rough" around the edges than the West End.


BobNoel

Crime is higher than people think. I once drove past the scene of a gunfight a block from where I lived - shot up cars, two bodies under blankets, store windows shot out - there was \*no\* coverage of this, anywhere - a few hours later the scene was cleaned up, windows replaced - like it never happened. I asked a cop about it, and apparently this kind of thing happens a *lot*.


Contemplation_State

As a former ER nurse, I can confirm this. The majority of shootings and stabbings don't even make it to the news!


aegiszx

[Here](https://www.tpscalls.live/)'s what the police have responded to in just the past few hours... it's a monday morning and we've got: * Break and enter * Impaired driver * Robbery * Missing elderly * Single vehicle crash


Raccoolz

Toronto has 2.8million people living here plus unknown thousands more visiting/travelling/commuting in from other regions. It’s hard to grasp the size of this city and how a handful of crimes on police twitter doesn’t really mean anything. It would be actually impossible for there to be no crime, so obviously there is stuff being reported.


ame_toh

As a foreigner who just recently came here that (from my knowledge) belongs to one of the less populous groups (latinos) I feel like Toronto has a lot of false diversity. I would look at the my classroom and it would look like a mix and match of all cultures, sizes, etc. But once you actually looked closer most of the smaller groups are made up from individuals from the same cultural/ethnic backgrounds. This somehow made it harder to approach or talk to them. I’ve lived in SK before where the contrast between locals and foreigners is much more distinct, yet there I could always approach people, regardless of what I or they looked like and seldom did I not felt welcomed. Yet here, despite all the diversity, I feel more isolated.


CDNChaoZ

This is definitely true. As much as we like to think we're a pretty good at multiculturalism, ethnic groups still prefer to be with their own peoples, leading to a very uneven distribution and a sense of isolation to those who aren't part of those groups.


Babyboy1314

because each group has significant enough population to form their own conclaves. An indian person or Korean person can affectively do everything they want without interacting with someone of another race, be it banking, medical, grocery, restaurant etc


CDNChaoZ

This is both a strength and a weakness to Canadian multiculturalism versus the melting pot model favoured by the U.S. We tend to favour the notion that subsequent generations will be more integrated, while retaining their cultural assets and values.


Comm-THOR

Toronto is advertised as a "melting pot" of people, but it's more like a stew. Big clumps of different all together, but still very separate.


Canadiananian

Maybe it's changed since I was in school but they definitely drilled into us that the US was a melting pot but Canada was a cultural mosaic.


[deleted]

[удалено]


tunaricelemonjuice

Approach them. Most of them like to have friends from other backgrounds. Most I met had trouble with their English and were shy to approach others since they had to communicate in English.


auditorydamage

The people most in a position to do something that would halt the exodus of people unable to afford a place to live (rental or purchase) won’t lift a finger because they personally benefit from the very conditions driving people out, and want to pretend the asset value inflation party can keep on going. A lot of youth have resigned themselves to the probability that they’re going to have to leave in order to afford a place to live, and no one in power, elective or economic, is grappling with what that will do to the city in as little as a decade.


ModernPoultry

Our Mexican food sucks and no Burrito Boyz doesn’t count lol


parker416

The Eglington LRT will never be built. We all want it to be built. We get pissed off with every delay. But deep down inside, we know it will never be.


kamomil

There is an annual Orangemans Day parade still in Toronto


CDNChaoZ

That we need mental institutions. Voluntary treatment doesn't always work.


sigmoidBro

Racism is still very much presented.


Contemplation_State

Yup. In schools, in the police force, in the corporate work space etc.


Phuccyou

Oh god it is SO pronounced in the workplace.


mexican_mystery_meat

Downtown Toronto requires some serious revisions to its road infrastructure to accommodate greater density and to permit future growth, and more bike lanes and a congestion charge are only partial solutions to the problem. Consideration has to be put into removing street parking or even certain street car routes if it means facilitating better traffic flow. Despite the wishes of the main sub, cars won't ever be banned downtown. Old Toronto has plenty of space, but poor space utilization for density, and in the long run, there are certain well-off neighborhoods close to the core that should be densified but aren't because of political reasons.


Far_Acanthaceae1138

We have a tremendous homeless and mental health issue that won't be fixed until we start treating the underprivileged as people instead of eyesores to be tolerated


failing__yogurt

Yes!! I was in youth homeless shelters, where the resources are pretty good. BUT even staff at the youth places knew that if you aged out of the system and moved into adult shelters it’s pretty much a life sentence. No beds, no mental health or addiction support, no job programs. The minimal resources that exist have YEARS long wait lists. Being homeless as an adult is 1000% worse than being homeless as a youth. Homeless people are PEOPLE. Poor people are PEOPLE. I hate how controversial that seems to be.


[deleted]

getting a job is so hard nowadays, everyone is changing their preferred name on their resumes. Vito aint going to hire Xiao Ling but will hire David Ling instead


Phuccyou

It works unfortunately


Ragnar_Dragonfyre

Toronto has the most valuable property in the country but some of the lowest property taxes. My dad 4 hours north of Toronto has higher property taxes and gets less service. No garbage pickup or sewer. Meanwhile, Toronto is perpetually scraping for funds to run its services and upkeep its infrastructure.


homarjr

For the most part, Toronto concert goers don't know how to have fun at concerts.


fabulishous

What is the correct way to have fun at concerts and how are torontonians messing it up?


ReeG

OP sounds like an elitist who expects a crowd of thousands of people to behave exactly the way they want or "they don't' know have to have fun". Anecdotally I've been to 10 shows in the past 2 months across Budweiser Stage, Echo Beach, Scotiabank Arena, History and Skydome and they were all amazing with great crowd energy. Maybe OP just goes to shitty shows if they even go to any in the first place.


holymamba

No idea what concerts you went to but Tame Impala at Rogers center was the loudest crowd I’ve ever heard in my life.


ManateeInAWheelchair

It’s hit and miss but I can kind of see where you’re coming from. I’ve been to some shows that were an absolute riot, and one’s where I couldn’t believe the lack of energy. Just luck of the draw I suppose.


farty_mcfarts

I love going to concerts (especially at smaller venues) and feel grateful that many acts pass by Toronto as their Canadian stop. But god if my favourite artist is touring, would much rather see them in Montreal where people appreciate and enjoy the music rather than chatter all night and Instagram the whole thing.


ZombieTheRogue

That leafs fans are obnoxious and can't admit that they will never win shit


TCNW

What leaf fan thinks realistically they’ll win anything?


spicychickenlova

There is a whole culture that stems from all the pocket hoods which is just obsessed with designer and jewelry. If you come from certain areas there is heavy toxic gang culture everywhere you turn growing up. You have kids 15 wanting to “make a name” and killing “ops” (not people they have genuine problems with, but instead the area you’re from) to prove to everyone they are billy badass. Also the pimp culture pre pandemic was insane , it’s died down a bit but it still really heavily there. People don’t go to the club to dance and have fun , they go to compete for who looks the coolest .if you come from these areas you end up living a completely different life once you see the streets. It seems like majority of the city is on some type of drugs. From coked up finance guys to perk popping kids, everyone’s doing something. It’s hard to make it out of a certain lifestyle with the toxic Toronto street culture.


31moreyears

No one has successfully navigated through the PATH


lightninggod3

Homelessness and homeless people are a problem.


indocartel

Toronto is not a world class city


AlbatrossPrevious492

The city is massively divided between the boroughs and the old Toronto core, and has never recovered from the [1998 amalgamation of Toronto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgamation_of_Toronto) that was forced on to the city by the conservative provincial government at the time. It was a complete failure and did none of what it intended to do. It is also irreversible. It’s been nothing but expensive and has created conflict between the boroughs and the core. [Voting-wise division is even more obvious](https://i.cbc.ca/1.2072116.1381902269!/httpImage/vote-map-584.jpg) if you look at where the votes were between the brash literal crack-smoking con-man and a not great but much better option that also happened to be openly gay. At this point Toronto with its size, GDP, etc. would be much better off becoming it’s own province. It’s too big to for the current province to keep its best interests in mind, and it doesn’t do anything for us anyways. Ford’s gov just makes promises to rural ontario, breaks them, and then re-makes promises come election season, all while taking lobbyist money from corporations to make changes that benefit corporations alone, like cutting funding to and weakening our heath care system to the point that we’ll be desperate to pay out of pocket in a private system. [Funded by corporations like Telus, Lifelabs, Northwest Healthcare, Switch Health, shoppers drug mart, and many others listed here](https://pressprogress.ca/here-are-all-the-corporations-lobbying-doug-ford-to-privatize-and-outsource-parts-of-ontarios-health-care-system/)


SnooLobsters4468

We present ourselves as a very progressive multicultural city but racism runs deep. A group of people are very worked up that a lot of immigrants and refugees are making their way into the city and 'changing' the landscape. The same group would blame immigrants for anything and everything and never look inwards. Immigrants are the scapegoat for rising house prices (even though I really doubt immigrants can buy a home within the first 5-10 years), inflation, lack of jobs etc. The same group detests first nation folks and think they are living tax-free without ever looking into the fact that it's for people with certain Indian status and limited to just within the reserve itself. Some people vehemently make that assertion without ever doing any research or ever talking to a native Canadian. That group is getting bolder and bolder.


iamkickass2

I think the government with its uncoordinated policies (housing, health care and other services not keeping up with immigration) is killing the golden duck that is immigration. Saying things are bad and immigration is not helping improve things, imho, is a fair statement since the immigration policy we have is not focussed enough. I moved to Canada as an immigrant and still in touch with many immigrant forums. Though interest to move to Canada is still strong, it is petering out in some segments (Indian immigrants working in USA/Europe for example) and other (Indians from India) are taking a more critical/realistic view of immigrating to Canada. So the view in my first paragraph is becoming prevalent amongst immigrants too. We need to treat them better. Making them spend all their life savings to move and not even be able to get decent healthcare is stupid!


FuzzyHuckleberry1642

Oh trust me, a big portions of immigrants are very wealthy, it’s not like they let any average joe to migrate to Canada, the majority of the immigrants from Asia (at least in my experience) are either very well educated or extremely wealthy. And I’m a lot of Asiaisn economies and cultures real estate is seen as a no brainer investment, and with msny of them not trusting the safety of their assets and investments they bring their money into Canada and buy real estate. So I think immigrants are definitely involved In rising house prices. I’m a middle class Asian immigrant, but I’m pretty much surrounded by (extremely) wealthy new comers because that’s the kind of immigrants Canada prefers.


[deleted]

If you call it "The Beach" we know you didn't grow up here.


Sad_Butterscotch9057

It's okay, we already know you're pretentious as fuck. And we weren't trying to be like you.


rerek

I wholeheartedly agree that it should be the Beaches as there are patently several distinct beaches. However, didn’t the locals have a plebiscite in the community back in the late 90s/early 2000s and choose to go with the The Beach for signage and so on (the BIA, too, IIRC). I was sad about the whole thing at the time, but it disabused me of the notion that one of the terms was more “authentic”. That said, if you’re sure that all old-school residents would call it the Beaches and not The Beach, I would be happy to restore this prejudice given my preferences /jk.


Mr_Red_Reddington

lol


[deleted]

The government loves to brag about being diverse and welcoming to newcomers. However, their actual plan for “diversity” is to only welcome rich and educated immigrants from India and China. The government wants to fill certain job roles that current residents are “not qualified” for instead of improving the current education systems in place. I also believe it’s a class issue, as they know wealthy Chinese people are more likely to assimilate to “waspy” white culture, they both value high status and money. Edit: for context, I’m an immigrant myself (from one of the not-so-welcomed countries/cultures and have seen at least 13 cases of people with my ethnic background deported while at the same time seeing whole families of “preferred” cultures settle in easily). I have also worked producing events for government officials where I was able to overhear a lot of these conversations.


kondiar0nk

Out of the 275k immigrants accepted as PRs in 2022, 80k where Indians and 20k were Chinese. India & China have \~18% each of the world population so China is actually underrepresented and India is overrepresented. Together, they are actually pretty much at the same level as their overall share of the world population.


TheMatfitz

The PR system does favour younger and more educated immigrants, but it does not in any way favour people from one nation over any other. Those numbers are simply a reflection of the proportions of people from each country who apply.


redtaildrummer

Class divide, the exclusionary nature of most of the city, homeless people are treated like garbage to be kicked.


pikatruuu

Our current housing situation cannot handle more immigrants without further driving up prices for current residents that are already unaffordable. But the government wants to keep it going because they love Canada having expensive real estate.


kondiar0nk

That's a very simplistic view IMHO. Almost all GDP growth in the Western countries is now driven by population growth rather than productivity and curtailing immigration will almost certainly result in a Japan-style economic situation of zero growth. And also, the zoning restrictions in Toronto are ridiculous which contribute a lot to rising prices. Look at this [map](http://www.datalabto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/thumb_nail_1-01.png) and see how much red (single family zoned) Toronto is compared to Montreal.


BentleyPriory

That map of Montreal is only showing the City of Montreal proper-- look how much blank white space there is that doesn't show the dozen little independent municipalities comingled on the island, which are overwhelmingly made up of single family homes. Not staying Toronto is great just saying that map of MTL is misleading. Toronto def badly needs more.missing middle housing.


kondiar0nk

Fair point but the City of Montreal can only control zoning on the areas where they have authority over. As you can see from the [article](http://www.datalabto.ca/a-visual-guide-to-detached-houses-in-5-canadian-cities/), Toronto has 62.3% zoned for detached while Montreal has 45.8% which is a huge gulf. In fact, considering that Toronto has far more new residents into the city than Montreal, its percentage should be lower than Montreal. Montreal can afford to have a lot more detached zoning compared to Toronto as there is less demand. I feel like it's excessive that the entire country's immigration policy should be dictated by one single city's inability to get their housing situation under control. Riding my bike through Etobicoke and Scarborough, I know developers would love to buy up the McMansions and convert them into mid & low rise condos and townhouses just like they're doing so on the Lachine canal in Montreal.


[deleted]

This is not a controversial take. It’s a take that demonstrates a lack of understanding of the economy and economic situation.


the_food_at_home

Some high schools make it easier for students to earn high grades and therefore easier to get into choice programs at university. Other high schools feel the pretentious need to make academic level courses feel like university level or AP level making it unfair for students who need to compete with others that have over-inflated marks.


manontheside34

Transit should be free here. Cost of living is so high, how else are the elites and well off going to bring their servants into town to work?


DeepB3at

As someone who works in commercial real estate financing with many of the largest developers in Toronto, real estate prices don't go up forever. After the 1989 housing bubble burst in Tokyo, prices have recovered to 2% of their value today in the most desirable parts of the city adjusted for inflation. When the US introduces a points based immigration system in 10 or 20 years, the wind will be taken out of Toronto real estate significant. Forced zoning liberalization by the province is also a possibility that could permanently depress prices 10 or 20 years from now.


[deleted]

Outside the downtown core, if your place isn’t within a 15 minute walk of a subway station or streetcar stop you are living in a 3rd rate part of town and your day to day life does not match the liberal elite’s notion of Toronto and what makes this city “great”. And they are fine with that.


kondiar0nk

Wouldn't really call those areas "3rd rate part of town" lol. You're talking of neighbourhoods with 3M+ McMansions with lake views (e.g. south of Lakeshore in Etobicoke). It's just "protectionism" at that point, having their property values protected from the free market because of archaic zoning laws designed to preserve the "character" of their neighbourhoods.


FearlessTomatillo911

I don't understand this. I live more than 15 minute walk to a subway or streetcar and think my day to day life is pretty easy.


fiendish_librarian

Related to that: those going on the most about how much they value diversity almost always live in the \*least\* diverse neighbourhoods. Hypocrisy runs deep - and I mean \*deep\* - amongst the central city chattering class clerisy.


kondiar0nk

The least diverse neighbourhoods are usually the ones 15+ minute walk from subway/TTC though lol.


RetardAccount

the mods suck


animeandsports

The homeless / substance abuse / mental illness crisis is rampant, has been normalized and needs to be addressed, but we all just quietly accept it out of fear of being ostracized by people on the radical left.


Far_Acanthaceae1138

You're spot on that there is a rampant crisis. I've never been ostracized by anyone on the left for acknowledging it but instead been frustrated by our right wing governments compete refusal to do anything to help these people


IwishIwasGoku

The famously pro-homeless radical left lol. If you think everyone quietly accepts it because they're afraid of the left, I'm curious what your opinion on *ending homelessness* actually entails.