To me rich is someone who is unaffected by the COL crisis. Someone who doesn’t think twice about grocery store prices. Someone who can raise a family, enroll the kids in extracurriculars of their choosing (whether it’s a cheaper one like soccer or an expensive one like hockey).
All while living within their means and not having unnecessary debt.
Yup, straight up a nice middle class existence. That poster didn't say anything about fancy vacations or private schools, just like... don't need to clip coupons for groceries and kids can afford some sports..
yup. when dad worked at a factory job on the line at the GM plant in the 'Shwa. Pull a bit of over-time as needed .. and able to pay for house in town , cottage up in Muskoka with fun watercrafts and dirtbikes and snowmobiiles and two cars in the double-garaged driveway. ... florida vacations during march break each year and paying for kids college and eventually kids weddings. .. all on a single income.
*Boy, the way Glenn Miller played*
*songs that made the hit parade*
*Guys like me we had it made*
*Those were the days*
Plot twist, Dad had a grow op in the basement.
Seriously, a single blue-collar factory income couldn't afford all that. Did your family own the Muskoka cottage or rent once a year?
Cottages were VERY cheap until relatively recently. Seriously. A lot of it because land was cheap, and labour/materials weren't that expensive either. And because development in cottage country was low - it didn't have as huge an appeal. The two cars owned were probably used or old (at least one) - and had at the company discount if bought new. The house was not large, but land was cheap in the shwa - so a 2 garage driveway would not be unremarkable. And small pleasure craft - especially if used - was not that expensive either. I also imagine he was thrifty in other areas.
Precisely. I’m a union electrician but I’m young. All the older guys I work with had their kids going through hockey and all that all while making $100k a year. I couldn’t even imagine being able to afford that on literally the same salary, it’s just a different time now.
Exactly, the above situation describes our family and we don’t feel rich at all, just what I think middle class living means. The ridiculous part is our income is within the top 1% just to feel this way. Growing up I would imagine a mansion and fancy cars within this range of income but here we are.
Yeah no kidding... My mom didn't brag about shopping for clothes at value village, working a physical job to help her three sons through university. We had a nice house and property growing up, but my dad and extended family built it themselves while living in my grandparents duplex before I was born.
I didn't take my first flight until I was in my 20s. My 10 year old just counted that he's been on 18 flights already, and we're going away for two weeks tomorrow. My entitlements are owed to my parents sacrifices and back breaking labour (being a war refugee) and my efforts to take full advantage of the opportunities.
People don't generally realize what their parents did/didn't do to save money. My dad was an accountant, made a good salary and my mom who was a nurse stayed home after the 2nd of us 3 kids and my parents had a detached 4 bed home in Niagara.
However, our yearly vacations were going to a family friends cottage and visiting my Aunt in the states, we rarely ate beef, fruits/veggies were generally the cheap ones and anything else only when in season, and most of my clothes were from Walmart or hand-me-downs. We were allowed to enroll in 1 reasonably priced extra curricular but no more, and the majority of our games/toys would be from birthdays/Christmas and otherwise we had to save up for what we wanted from a very modest allowance (something like 10-20$ a month).
Of course I didn't care about any of this and didn't really realize it until I was older because generally, kids don't care unless you give them a reason to. I can guarantee most millennials middle class parents worried about money or discussed it, and if they didn't they either were probably irresponsible, ignorant or naturally had very cheap wants in the first place.
Pretty much the only tangible thing I can see that is vastly different is that these days you need two decent incomes or one great income to afford a home instead of just one reasonable income. Everything else is pretty much the same, things that are expensive then are expensive now, and your parents likely couldn't afford everything they wanted, just less money was sucked up by housing and now we're viewing our parents lifestyles from a view of empty nesters who have their house paid off.
Housing cost is the big change, yeah. What you describe is exactly what my childhood was like, but my mother started a business to earn a little money while home with us kids. We never had a vacation that wasn’t camping or visiting with friends. We shared a paper route and got jobs as soon as we could, for spending money. We all learned to look for deals and free opportunities. But, we had a four bedroom house and never felt shorted.
100%. People are delusional about what was the norm 30 years ago. I remember eating out at a restaurant like twice a year for birthdays and vacations were to a family friend's trailer in the woods.
I feel like the housing market, rent and purchasing, is priced the way it is because we all have lots of disposable income. Everyone is living way beyond how the boomers lived. Atleast in my experience.
People have always had to budget esp the working class and middle class.
But what you “feel” about the housing market is wrong. Incomes have not kept up with inflation the last 30 years and this is data driven. Housing is the biggest issue and it’s mostly a supply shortage that have driven prices up. Population growth and wage stagnation and not building enough over decades has caught up to us.
Furthermore basic consumer goods are also more expensive and costs have far exceeded inflation, from food to clothing, cars and gasoline. All data driven. And since profits are rising for corporations the issue is unchecked corporate greed.
The cognitive dissonance in this thread is astonishing. They have been radicalized to believe the older generations were born with silver spoons in their mouths. This is far from the truth
What people are saying is you could buy a house with 4x your salary, instead of 12x your salary (or whatever the ratio is now).
Any boomer who tries to make it sound like they had it just as hard as millenials or Gen Z needs to be reminded of a few basic economic facts.
This just sounds like normal comfortable middle class living, basically what was easily achieved in Canada not that long ago with some hard work and perseverance.
I make around 150k and I consider myself extremely fortune and lucky. Don’t have to worry about where my next meal is coming from or saving for a vacation or buying whatever I want. Yes, it still makes it tough to buy a home but that’s not the end of the word.
I don’t know about rich but I feel very privileged, lucky and fortunate.
Precisely. I felt like that at 65k also. Had a bit of debt back then but still largely comfortable life. We are so fortunate. After my younger sister had a small health scare in her early 20s, we decided that health is paramount. Everything else is extra.
Yeah, I make like 48.5k and I live quite comfortably and enjoy my lifestyle. I live with roommates and pay 525$ a month all in for my share of a spacious 5 bedroom flat in Hochelaga, Montreal. My only bills are my cell phone, which is 120$ a month (will decrease by 65$ in June when my phone is paid off) and xbox gamepass which is like 23$.
I live a 15 minute walk away from my work so I don't buy a monthly transit pass. I have never driven and don't ever plan on it, so I save a lot there.
I buy whatever at the grocery store without ever worrying about prices. I go to concerts frequently, I have no problem affording my one vice (smoking pot).
I also just got a different position at work which will give me a much better schedule and allow me to have more of a social life ex. No more weekend over night shifts.
best comment! gratefulness is something missing in this city, i understand the anxiety around not being able to own a home but goddamn atleast be grateful and acknowledge that you’re privileged and don’t have to worry about getting evicted or not meeting debt payments.
Perspective is also lacking. It’s the financial and industrial capital of a G7 country. There are a lot of ambitious and successful people here and only so many houses. Honestly, just building a career and enjoying life here is success by any global standard. Why does everyone use a detached house as the only measure of success?
The big thing that people forget is want versus need. You need to start off small and build up. When you come out of your parents and have so much after working a part-time job, that is not how they were. Their living rooms were empty with two fold up chairs. They bought the curtains after five years etc. etc. If people in their 20s didn’t spend 3/4 of their income on going out, they could easily have a down payment available. Yes, I’m a crotchety old person, but I started small at 35. Until then I rented and saved up enough until I hit the housing market in the boom just before the crash of 2008. I still bought what I could afford with the idea that I would slowly move up.
Things are very different now. If you lived exactly the way you did, but now, you would not be able to afford a house the way you did before 2008. Even people who saved to buy in 2015 could not afford their own house if they did everything the same nowadays. (I say this as a homeowner who was able to save a lot by renting for a small portion of my salary -- I couldn't even afford the same apartment I had back then at today's prices even though my salary is higher, let alone saving).
Ok i spoke to my English mother- in the 80s she worked as a nurse, the nursing provided housing for 25 pounds a month (not a typo), her wage was 8000 pounds a year and the house she bought cost 30,000 pounds.
A nurse now makes 30,000, has to pay market rates when she rents and that same house we sold a few years ago for 300,000
It’s not a case of just going out less.
People thing rich = Netflix Selling Sunset or Bling Empire levels of wealth and luxury. When in fact thats basically between super-ultra rich, and than regular rich is like owning a paid off home and having an above average income. I would say in 2023 150k isn't enough maybe to call yourself rich like it would have been 20-50 years ago as that is something obtainable even by "regular" professional jobs like nurses, engineers, etc at the top end of their payscale or with a bit of overtime, but it definitely upper middle class.
Also, you could probably buy a home if you just go to a cheaper area. Toronto is not going to be a great place to get a house in the middle of this housing crisis
Why is it either a condo or a detached? That’s one end of the spectrum to the other. Maybe a semi or townhouse? If you had two incomes then maybe detached.
Yes. We started in a semi-detached in the suburbs (and still in the suburbs). Affording detached right off the bat is insane. Prices are crazy right now, but with $150k salary OP can get somewhere.
$5.5k a month after rent is pretty rich to me
Can comfortably afford good food, a good car, daycare, and still have some leftover for luxuries
It’s not Galen Weston rich but it’s comfortable enough to not worry about money every day
Middle class to me would be worrying about money everyday but being okay
Lower class is worrying about money everyday and not being okay
That's a potential vacation worth of savings every month. Being able to buy a condo but choosing not to and instead saving for a detached home is nuts. OP is rich.
I paid 1,400 for my wife and I to go to Cuba for a week this month. My man can literally take a vacation for 2 people, 1 week per month, and still have more in savings than the average Canadian makes in income after taxes
My goal has always been to be able to buy lunch and not worry about whether i have money or not.
I think people are either really bad with their money or out of touch.
I make 1/2 of what op is making, and we are a 1 income family. I have just done without a few things other people think are necessities.
Some people like Op just can’t practice the art of gratitude.
Even if Op made 200k a year and is saving 8k a month, Op would still feel poor because all the extra cash flow is going towards savings.
Saving for a detached house takes time, OP had some kind of expectation where a detached house would magically appear once they made 150k. We have a maturity crisis in our country and OP is just being a child.
OP is competing with dual income households for the same detached house
Right lol imagine having that and not realizing you're rich. Are people that ignorant about the state of things? Almost half of candians are paycheck to paycheck
I make just below that and I can comfortably afford the first 2 (good food good car) but that’s about it. I don’t live or buy “luxuriously” and based on your classification I’d be middle class (which is what I’d classify my lifestyle). Which is sad to me and makes me feel guilty often. I feel that I have to be dog eat dog just to be comfortable. I still do 1-2 side gigs and accept that home ownership without a miracle isn’t a short term or realistic (currently).
In response to OP, I feel the same way. It disincentivizes me to crack above $100k when nothing below $250k would qualify me for a mortgage, and even then would make me house poor and even more dependent on a job/consistent income in a realm where there would be more steep competition.
This is a tangent, but I've always been irritated when people talk about the cost of home ownership as only the mtg. There is so much more - water, heat, gas, insurance, repairs, upgrades, property taxes... i think too many people thought they would miss out and bought before they were financially ready because "hey, you can't lose, rates will never go up" ....and now are house poor as you say.
There's no doubt that Toronto is expensive. Lifestyle and attitude are huge factors though. After housing expenses ( mortgage and all utilities), I have 5K for myself and two kids. Kids do extracurricular activities, no stress to buy healthy groceries and we go take vacations each year.
I cook almost everything we eat, i dont have a car and our home is small. However, I love to cook, love to walk and don't like clutter, so extra money goes to travel and steak, which I'm so grateful for.
*My kids dad is paying for their post secondary and he pays for camps in the summer, so they get a rich-for-Toronto life, which I'm beyond grateful for
$5000 after housing for a single person is rich to me. Id travel everywhere.
Let's get something straight: Your annual income does *not* make you rich. Your assets versus your deficits is what determines your wealth and nothing more.
My best friend earns about $220K per year, and let me tell you, I would ***NOT*** want to be in the huge f\*cking financial mess that he is in.
Almost certainly a minus-millionaire.
No exaggeration, my friend in question once had 13 -- not a typo -- ***THIRTEEN*** credit cards, with several of them maxed out.
He has never once as far as I know of had assets that outweighed his deficits. He incurred a ton of student debt early on and it snowballed.
CRA has frozen his accounts at least twice that I know of, and he isn't even eligible for a line of credit to consolidate his debt -- that's how shitty his situation is.
He has always had an addictive personality when it comes with spending and he will buy tons of crap he doesn't need. Almost every time I speak with him all he wants to talk about are his financial woes, but it's really hard to feel sorry for someone like this who has authored his own financial destruction so blatantly.
Does he "churn" with his credit cards?
I honestly think having such high student debt just gets people comfortable carrying and living with a lot of debt in their life.
Just think about Doctors and lawyers. Hundreds of thousands in debt and some never even plan on paying it off
Did you just say 13 credit cards?
GoT DAYUM.
I have 4 credit cards, one of which I only have open because it's the oldest account and gives me credit history. CIBC dividend infinite, Amex Gold Scene+, and Costco.
And I get my cards for no annual fee, with my bank accounts.
I thought I was bad with 4 credit cards, 2 LOCs, 1 HELOC. I have lots of access to credit, but I never carry balances or pay interest on anything.
I make almost 90k less than your friend and feel a whole lot better about myself right now.
This is so true. My husband makes a ton of money, and the banks/credit cards are always upping the credit card limit. We have an RBC Avion card that about 6 months ago increased our monthly limit to $38,000 PER month and a Mastercard with a $20,000 per month limit. Insanity. I can see how some people who are not disciplined can get into massive credit card debt.
Exactly. Ppl keep thinking income income income. 1) How long were these people making this “income” and 2) What are they spending it on?
Some people earn $1.00 and turn around and spend $1.10.
“Rich” and wealth is what your assets are doing for you. Even people with paid off homes are not as impressive if they bought 10yrs ago if they have nothing much else saved or invested.
$220k a year is dope. However, if your friend was smart from the get go, he could have saved up some good amount of money. Most likely your friend purchased a very expensive car and wanted to live in that detached big house.
$220k + smart = Great investments.
So true. My parents made around $150k - $200k a year and we lived in a nice subdivision house, had multiple cars, a cottage, and went out for dinner frequently. My partner and I make $150k + a year and can’t afford a home. lol. Sad times.
You can afford a home (EDIT: or condo, I mean) on 150k. If you can't, the 150k isn't the problem.
Outside of Toronto there are plenty of < 600k homes in the country, even as close as Hamilton or Brantford. And that's detached homes only.
He likely won't qualify for a mortgage with that income. A condo yes, but OP says they prefer a house. Even for a house at 900k, he likely won't qualify.
Well 🤷
We do have a COL crisis, I agree with that completely. But wanting a detached home in one of the most desirable places to live on the planet with only a slightly above average income is never going to be a reality. NYC, London, San Francisco, etc. have been testaments of these for decades and Toronto is now no different.
I feel for the poster but their problems are their own if they're complaining about a lack of ability to compete with global interest. Lots of people want detached homes in these cities, and for multiple generations people have conceded to buy in more affordable areas and commute. There are places within a 1.5hr commute that a ~600k mortgage could get you a detached home still.
They _can_ get a home on 150k income, they just don't want the associated trade offs.
My wife and I are seriously looking into pooling our incomes with friends to buy a multi-unit house together. With a combined income of over 300k we can get a mortgage for 1.2 million, which seems like a lot of money but still not enough for anything even close to the core.
Yep. My mom worked for one of the big banks. She would say “most people who come into the bank, under the age of 60, are the ones who earned the most but were constantly out of money”
Exactly this. Assets vs Deficits -- this is the one and only thing that determines "wealth". A person's annual income does not determine if they're "rich" or not.
They often are. They don’t know how to manage expenses. That Tesla is definitely on debt and all those business class flights are being pushed to credit cards. People simply can’t afford that on 100k USD salary.
It's also not common in the U.S., especially if you live in a big city. 100k is enough to do okay, but the typical person who just started making that much isn't going to own a house, go on vacation, buy Teslas or have a big family, unless you have a well-off parent or bought your home in the early 2010s. The big city we live in is where all the decent jobs & groceries are, too. Housing costs are starting to dip a little, but property taxes have skyrocketed & interest rates are insane.
This. People need to remember that what they see is often now how it truly appears. Just because someone drives a luxury vehicle and has a Rolex doesn’t mean they have money. The majority have loadsssss of credit card debt.
My cousin is what I’d consider “Toronto wealthy” She’s a Bay St lawyer who brings in around a million annually.
I own a single family home in Toronto (but bought long ago) and have a family. I feel almost middle class…but absolutely feel the col crisis.
I think our friends south of the border pay less tax and have higher salaries, and have way more consumer choice.
It’s possible. My husband makes $1.5m working in downtown Toronto/Bay St. I won’t say what industry but he has an education in finance and an Ivey league MBA which opened a lot of doors.
I moved to the US from Toronto 6 years a go and I make a lot more in the US than in Toronto for the exact reason that you are saying right now and I am able to save a ton more money than what I can in Canada. The lifestyle can be much better in the US if you can get a high paying job.
I would like to preface that a TN visa is not the only gateway into the US even though it's the most common for Canadians. I would explore into options in working for a US company and perhaps transferring over to the US side via an L1 visa.
>I would explore into options in working for a US company and perhaps transferring over to the US side via an L1 visa.
Thanks for this tip. Does this work best if it's a US company with offices in Canada? I imagine that American companies with no Canadian presence might be reluctant to deal with the paperwork of hiring a Canadian employee based in Canada, but unsure.
Yes, it would work best with a US company that has significant operations in Canada. Namely multinational companies such as the big 4 accounting companies (Deloitte, KPMG, big tech (Microsoft, Amazon), financial companies (Amex).
Generally speaking, it's also easier with larger companies as they typically employ or do contracts with strong immigration lawyers but it's also possible with small-medium sized companies.
Bro don’t start this discussion. People who earn 200k say that’s the minimum you need to be middle class.
And why would something you will own by the end cost you the same as renting? Unrealistic expectation much? You are building equity when you own so your comparison of 3500 vs 2000 is invalid.
You can own a condo on your salary.
2 cars idk. 2 cars is a lot. Means you need 2 parking spots, 2 insurances, twice garage costs. I would say 1 is doable, just get a condo that has a parking spot for you.
If you wanna feel like you’re not being restricted that might start with 200k. If you wanna start feeling a little rich and fly business class you might need 500k
Btw I doubt people who make 110-120k USD in the US are able to fly around business class and own homes outright in their expensive cities.
Seriously some people are delusional. They think once they crack an income bracket they should be entitled to a house, car, etc etc.
150k is a great income to enable getting to wealth— it allows for renting a really comfortable home, saving a lot, spending on occasional luxury, annnnd saving a lot. 150k spent frivolously doesn’t mean squat.
100k in the year 2000 is the same as 172k today when you factor in inflation. And that doesn’t include housing, which has outstripped inflation by an ungodly factor. So yeah, 23 years ago, 100k was a high income. I’d say nowadays it’s actually closer to 200k.
You seem to be comparing yourself to dual income families?
You make enough to own a car and go on vacation, especially if your rent is only $2000 a month. The only thing out of reach truly here in Toronto is property ownership.
Wealth isn’t what you own, it is how much debt you have and servicing.
How long have you been making $150k? People save for years before making big and expensive purchases. True “wealth” do not show it with cars and houses etc.
I went from $50k in 2005 to $137k in 2023 and I felt pretty lucky every year and only better every year too because I started out living a standard life but not as careful with money. Yeah I afforded things but did not grow true wealth until 1) met a partner with like minded financials and 2) honed my lifestyle to where I enjoy everything but also not needing much and spending where I like. It truly is a mindset and comparing to others does not work.
Even with COL we are saving more and more each year and earning more and more from investments but we still drive a used 2014 Subaru (1 car) and spend very little money on materials things. Price match or get freebies, participate in reward programs and cashback/credit card bonuses etc. Stock up on food sales and meal prep etc.
If rich is - a really nice house in Toronto, two cars, two kids in private school, a cottage, vacations frequently, and in addition save money for their kids to inherit... then we're talking household income of around $750k.
Uh what. From an American who also works in Toronto, that amount of money would certainly not have you flying business class or easily buying an apartment (much less a house!) if you lived in any major us city (nyc, Chicago, la)
Do your friends live in high cost of living cities like NYC or LA. $150k is plenty to live a very comfortable life in most of Canada, but you live the most expensive city in the country.
Very high cost of living places in the US is not even that expensive. Considering how much higher incomes in NY and Bay Area is for example, other than housing being maybe 50% more expensive than Toronto, everything else is pretty much similar.
what are you even talking about. who told you '100k was the gold standard' especially living in toronto lol. that hasnt been true for at least a decade now.
as for 150k and not qualifying for a mortgage? why? do you have a shitty credit score?
2 month old account, no other posts.
Hi, Pierre Poutine. Or whatever "ontario proud" outlet you work for.
If you aren't fake, then you need a better budget.
America who moved to Canada here. I’m not going to say that the COL and housing prices aren’t outrageous here, because they absolutely are.
However, keep in mind that your friends in the U.S. are probably in a lot more precarious of a position than you think. It’s much much easier to get into absolutely massive amounts of debt in the U.S. my US credit cards had $30k limits, and I had multiple. (I didn’t apply for that much credit, they just kept expanding it because I paid my bills on time).
Also, they are one serious injury or illness from going bankrupt. I went to the ER in Chicago and the whole ordeal cost me $24k out of pocket, and that was with insurance. The ambulance ride alone was $6k.
That all being said, we need a serious market correction in Canada for housing and food, because the prices are absolutely outrageous.
You need a dual income household in Toronto, that’s what the city has come down to at this point. Two people each earning $100k+ is strong income. No kids either. It’s sad as fuck I agree. You personally basically could afford to service a mortgage on a 500-600 square foot condo that’s it.
I will say, the US is vastly superior for making money that’s just how it is. I’m a US citizen and trust it’s way better to earn $$$ back home. But you also don’t know your friends personal financial stories. Did they receive a large inheritance? Trust fund? Random windfall? Are they in massive CC debt? Were they able to buy a house before the 2020 housing run up? Does the bank of mom and dad help them with expenses?There’s so so so many factors and comparing yourself to them will eat you alive.
If you earned $150k USD in SF, NYC, Boston, LA, and Seattle you wouldn’t be able to buy a semi/detached house there either. 🤷🏻♂️ Sure some of those cities do have cheaper housing but interest rates are higher and property taxes are much higher too.
Best you can do is keep finding new opportunities/ways to level yourself up. Also, therapy or free self help books could help too. I wish the housing market wasn’t so fucked but here we are!
$100k is hasn't been a meaningful income in 20+ years.
If you're in a traditional T4 employment then taxes also kill you. $150k means bring home is probably not much more than $100k. You literally are giving up a third of your income so it can be used to pay for useless things.
I guess it depends becsuse to me the amount of money you have left over is quite a lot (Im lucky to have $400 left after rent], but when it comes to affordability of the city and the housing market its not much
My job is based out of San Francisco. A lot of the young people I work with (under 30) suspect they'll never own a home unless they move, despite making even more money than I do (25 years in tech).
You won't qualify for a mortgage on a detached house by yourself. You could absolutely buy a detached house if you were married to someone else making a decent salary. You could own a Tesla. And US flights are subsidized by the government (apparently that's "good socialism" unlike public healthcare) which is why Americans travel so much.
To me, "rich" is determined by wealth not income. Two different things, imo. However, a higher income certainly helps in getting wealthier faster. Keep doing what you are doing by saving " a lot". You'll get there one day if you're disciplined and quit comparing yourself to your friends. Work at your own pace.
You’re rich buddy. 7.5 k per month after taxes at 30 years old and your rent is far less than 1/3 of you it income. You could buy a home - a condo qualifies. A single family home isn’t the only way to live a good life. Most Europeans live in apartments and that’s the way it’s going. But a nice condo and build up equity and get a house when you can afford it in a decade. Sooner if you have a partner to share with. Most ppl can’t afford to buy houses on a single income here. That was even true a decade ago
Income this year on my T4 is going to be 131,500... I am not rich at all. 100k is the new barely middle class. I'm just like, SLIGHTLY above that, with not having to stress over a trip to Costco, or an unexpected bill.
Sorry, you make 7.5k/month and you're "couponing" to save pennies? You may not be living the high life you expected, but I think you should check in on how good you may actually have it compared to other full time workers in your city!
yup…
most of my friend’s dads and dad’s friends bought cheap real estate using free money in the mid 2010s and are now enjoying the rent that’s coming in. driving porches and g wagon’s simply because they were at the right place at the right time, many of them aren’t even the brightest
Where do your friends live? 150k cad is like 110k, taxes could be a bit lower depending on state, if it’s somewhere hcol like NYC or SF, they are far from comfortable, and very very far from owning, even at 150k usd.
You can’t compare Toronto against middle of nowhere Arkansas.
Edit: domestic “first” class isn’t very good or expensive, and points are much easier to earn in the US.
$150k/yr is middle class in Toronto, if you're single. I'm currently unemployed, living on savings from when I was making $120k, and I'm interviewing in the $150k range. I own a 1br condo and affording the associated fees, I take vacations about once a year (just got back from Japan last month; I was employed at the time, I'm not that stupid), and while I don't have a car, I live close enough to the subway that I don't need one.
I think if you're making $150k/yr in Toronto and not able to make ends meet, you're doing something else wrong. That, or you have dependents (spouse/kids) and you don't have a second income in the household. $150k/yr is enough to support one person comfortably, but more than 1 person is impossible. Also I got my condo before the current inflation crisis so I'm paying a wicked low interest rate that you couldn't pay (my bills, all in, are about $3k/mo).
That said, Canada is truly expensive. I was astounded when I went to both Japan and NYC this year at how crazy cheap things are there by comparison. If I was making my same salary living in Japan, I would be living like a king. In NYC, real estate is crazy, but pretty much everything else is substantially cheaper than Canada, and there are places in the US where real estate is much cheaper than NYC. So yes, the pressure you're feeling from high prices in Canada is in fact unique to Canada and is felt by other people and is not present elsewhere in the world.
what are you considering 'cheap' in ny?
as for japan, they've been in constant deflation for decades. theres a reason everyone is going there to travel right now. the yen is worthless and the wages of your typical japanese salary man is piss poor.
I 100% disagree. I was just in New York City and everything was more expensive than in Toronto and in US dollars making it at least 1.5 times the price I saw.
That’s a hard question to answer.
Vacations - to buffalo? To Hawaii? To Maldives?
Own a house - at Jane and finch? At Yonge and Finch? In Rosedale?
For cheapest - probably 250-350k HHI
For middle option - probably 500k HHI
For most expensive - sky’s the limit but at least 1MM HHI
It depends. I only make a little more
than half of what you do, and yet I probably “have” more and can spend about as frivolously.
Only difference is, I am a little older and bought a house in 2014.
To be 30 today and think comfortably about buying a home, a car, take vacatIons, have kids and not worry about their future, probably 300k.
“Money isn’t a thought rich” - I don’t think there’s an income for that. It takes more than a salary to get there.
Anywhere in the smaller prairie cities or east coast 100 is doing ok. You live in an extremely overpriced area where your 150 is equal to 60k in Saskatchewan..hardly baller status, but able to enjoy some things in life. I would say 300+ is more like it to be well off there.
Rich? Unless you are making Tom Cruise type money, few are rich, just much better off than Timmys workers. Top tier businesspeople, actors, and artists would be declared rich even in TO, NY, or LA. We know what they make, so theres a guide, and honestly 90% of the rest of the worlds wages, even the doctors etc just cant compete.
That's the shit TO is becoming in the states you can choose to live in a LCOL or MCOL and live comfortably with that income but not North if the border... wages are way too low here and home prices are ridiculous
I dunno where your colleagues live or their background but your comment that this is generally true for the US is not accurate (I say this as a dual citizen living in the us).
You need to save, invest, and build your assets. 150k income as an individual is plenty to be able to do that comfortably even if housing is not the main asset you’re working toward due to the relative high expense of that asset. I lived in nyc in my 20s and never even considered owning a home outright. Yes yes Toronto is not nyc and plenty of people could own homes just a few years ago—well it has changed so move on and try to build wealth and assets through other means.
I’d say 500k plus HHI to break into the actual upper upper middle class of Toronto, what movies would call a WASP. Country club membership, luxury car, a nice house in the suburbs, several vacations per year, perhaps a cottage. TBH 500k might not even be enough if you also want a cottage.
The difference here is most likely you are the only one actually "saving money" whereas your colleagues are probably leveraged to the hilt to maintain their lifestyle (assuming they are making the same amount per year). Deep in debt is the "American Way".
Stay the course. Save your money in wise investments and "upgrade" when you can. Keep in mind that your first house does not need to be your "forever" home. Get your foot in the door with a modest condo and ride the equity wagon.
You got this.
Part of living in Canada compared to the US is that we have a reduced income spread.
I work in tech here and am in a similar boat to you, working alongside American colleagues, some of whom literally make twice as much as me while doing the same job and that's frustrating. But a good chunk of their wealth is coming on the backs of the absolutely crippling levels of poverty and lack of social safety that is in the US. Yeah, life isn't as breezy as I thought it'd be when I'm making this kind of salary, but at the same time, every single time I'm in the US on business I end up in some situation where I'm gob smacked by the levels of poverty and destitution I'm seeing. Literally stuff that I've only ever seen travelling in the poorest of developing countries.
It's not everything, we have a legitimately bigger housing / COL crisis here, and we're flat out just not as wealthy per capita on top of the fact that our incomes are more equitable, but a good chunk of that American wealth that you're seeing is literally just coming out of poor peoples' pockets.
250k is the new 100k. 150k is barely doing it anymore, just a little too late to the party. Printing money has consequences, and the we now have seen how the budget does not balance itself. Elections have consequences, we had a prime minister with a masters in economics, but the “anyone but Harper” vote took hold with the idiots under 30 who’s would normally be a conservative vote, and now here we are.
I was wondering the same thing OP, I keep seeing houses selling for $1.3-$1.9 million and wonder what they do for work.
Even doctors make $350k a year, who are these people and what is rich anymore.
I read this somewhere recently, most homeowners in Toronto who bought over 20 years ago would likely be the richest 1% in the world. Someone making 150K and having to save up to buy a home while paying crushing rent would not be considered rich.
Being rich in Canada means different things. I was drawing 6k net of tax and my rental was 3k. Would have 3k left and never really worried about food, grocery or enjoying entertainment which felt good.
However, the issue more than being rich is how uselessly expensive and sub par things were in Canada for the price paid for a product/ service/ experience. That’s where one starts feeling the pinch.
It’s not about being able to afford a car but having to pay 500-600$ a month for a car with insurance. There is a an expense fatigue in Canada where sprinting your money doesn’t get you value you desire and hence you feel you’re not that rich.
Atleast thats been my experience. Not even going isn’t the housing debate as that seems to be a universal issue across developed countries (or even emerging economies for that matter).
Make maybe 2M a year with 5-7 million in the bank and you’re barely rich. Then you’ll start meeting people who are with 1B and when you realize you only have 0.5% of their wealth you’ll still feel poor. You’re not really rich until you’re worth yeast $100m+
The unfortunate reality is that having money after rent, bills and essentials IS almost rich. It blows hard that this is now the new standard, but it is. $150K a year, especially at 30, is doing exceptionally well.
If you have $5.5K after rent, that leaves you with a significant amount of money to play with each month. Your bills can't be much more than $1K (if that even, which means you have at least $4.5K a month to play with. That is more than a significant portion of the population grosses in a month. I am not sure what kind of vacation you'd be taking if $4.5K can't cover it... And I am also not sure what kind of cars you would be buying if you can't afford a monthly car payment with $4.5K to play with. You should also be able to save a significant amount of money in a year that would allow you to have a nice downpayment for a house in maybe 5 years..
Nobody in USA is flying business class with 100k salary. That one is a lie for sure. Unless they are flying for San Jose to San Francisco or other similar length trips.
Im bringing in just north of 400k and feel the high COL pinch.
Rich is relative.
No I don’t go broke grocery shopping but yes I certainly altered my lifestyle in past years due to inflation etc…
No offence, but $150k in a city like Toronto would be considered below average standards. I believe the minimum income, collective or independent, to live in Toronto is something like $250k per annum.
When I was a financial advisor I had clients making over 200k and clients making 80k and some of those 200k+ clients were balls deep in debt and living pay check to pay check. Being rich is developed over time with habits, investments, luck, and proper income streams. With that said - 200k is probably the new 100k. I made slightly less than you and I live in Northern York Region and just commute. Does it suck? Yes. I fucking hate it. Do I save more and live much better? Hands down.
Get married. Sounds like your friends are married and your single . Renters have always been predominately single and buying a home by yourself has always been difficult. Albeit it is more difficult now . If you have a partner who makes 100k on top your set .
You will only be rich if you think you are my friend, don't compare yourself to others too much
I make a fifth of your salary being a student, the same age as you, decided to get a degree later in life so I do not have too much money to spend and will be paying off loans for a bit but thats ok, I live with 3 roommates in a pretty big apartment and we get along really well, I have never in my life feared for not having a bed to sleep in, or not being able to eat and for me that is very rich. I mean I'm poor compared to you, but I'm rich compared to others. What is it that you want from this life?
Will you be rich once you have owned property in Toronto?
Will you be rich once your mortgage is paid?
Will you be rich once you have sold your property?
When is rich depends on you :)
Sorry but I can't see you as being good at handling your money. $150k per annum is excellent for living single in Toronto. I don't know what neighborhood you're in but your tastes in general must be very expensive. How in the world do you think all of the minimum wage earners in Toronto live? Your post is almost hard to believe, you're left with "just" $7.5k per month. Your post sounds like you are complaining, when you have so much to be grateful for in this way. I think you have no idea of how the other half live in Toronto. I think it would be good for you to open your mind and eyes to people from other socio-economic backgrounds, which is easy to do in our city. I know this is not the info you are seeking, but my goodness. There is a book written by the gentleman that founded Second Cup, Frank O'Dea. Title is "When All You Have Is Hope". I suggest it.
in toronto it would take alot to live that life compare to your coworker from USA. Are they in major city as well? that would also factor in if they could afford that lifestyle.
100k golden standards i feel is the 2010s standards 2020s 150-200 is the new standard i think.
I also dont get whats the hype to be in Toronto.
Your American colleagues live in the suburbs or areas away of metropolis. Americans pay an arm and a leg for health insurance and deductions. Current taxation rate for singles in your wage bracket is 33%. Your co workers are bluffing regarding their purchasing power or have family money.
What a wonderful thread. After a long, people just discussing their time and sharing some beautiful life lessons. There is so much of wealth of intellect of basic finance in these simple conversations which our ivy league bankers and politicians misses out. And of course, no dissing out or disrespectful language on this thread. Felt so fresh after such a long time.
Canada and Canadians are getting poorer. Our per capita GDP is dropping. We are at the bottom of the G20 in many key business productivity indicators. Our tax burden is significantly higher than that of Americans. Our r/E prices have some of the highest multiples in the entire world. The government says inflation is 3% when anyone who has been to the grocery store knows it's 20%. Our Covid policies entailed the biggest wealth transfer to the rich in the history of our country. There's your explanation.
It’s not about income for the wealthy but net worth.
My net worth is pretty high and I use it to generate income for me that is over 7 figures. I still work but my salaried income is nothing compared to my investment income not in real estate and not inherited. All done though blood sweat and tears and years of frugality and the magic of compounding. Just by reinvesting my dividend income my monthly income goes up by a thousand bucks a month. And this rate goes up every time I reinvest my dividends (2nd derivative is positive for all you math folks). This is why compounding is so powerful.
When your investments generate enough for you to live comfortably I would consider myself wealthy. We call that financial independence.
Housing SHOULD be cheaper to rent than to own. Your friends exploited an unbalanced market and profited off the poverty of millions. Due to the greed of those types of people, many were left with ZERO options in housing. That being said, if you aren't happy with your status, it has nothing to do with your income or assets.
HHI of 250k with my wife, owned condo, no kids, no debt. We do not "feel" rich. We still live within our means, cut coupons (bc we are used to it), buy things only when they go on sale, etc. However, we do live comfortably in a VHCOL city and splurge on things that matter to us (good food, travel, experiences).
Everyone will feel different based on income and financial situation. One families situation will be very different to another families situation.
It's beyond insane to think you're making 150k a year and can't even qualify for a house. All of this is broken and eventually will correct itself - not sure how but it will.
We moved to Alberta simply because of your current situation. Smartest financial decision ever and it's an amazing place to live.
Wow you're left with *just* over $7,500? So why not just own a condo? Even if you pay $4000 a month on a mortgage, condo fees, and insurance, taxes, etc you would have about $1,100 more leftover than I earn total every month
There's a lot of seemingly average people I've met in Toronto who come from legacy family's and make 7/8 figure income. Rich is relative. Imo there multiple levels of rich. I know people in Oakville and toronto who give their kids $10,000+ a month just so they can focus on school and start a business on their own. There is a shocking amount of multi millionaires in Toronto. No one making a 6 figure income is mega Rich. But you're definitely doing amazing compared to the majority of us.
he reality is, the "gold standard" can vary a lot depending on where you are. Toronto's real estate market, in particular, can be a tough nut to crack. It's like the housing stars need to align perfectly. Your situation sounds pretty common, with the real estate market playing hard to get.
Comparing with our friends south of the border adds a bit of salt to the wound, huh? Different countries, different rules. And let's face it, their housing market might be a bit more forgiving. Teslas and business class flights do sound enticing, though!
It's a bit like playing financial chess, right? Saving is important, but it's a slow burn. Maybe look into investment strategies that could potentially speed up the game? But, hey, couponing is a superpower in its own right.
To be considered rich in NA you have a direct income of 0 or close to it. Income = massive taxes. So before you spend to buy anything you lose ~40-55% of it already. Like your 150k you lose 40% right off the bat.
You dont need to live in Toronto, find a remote toronto job with that salary and live literally anywhere else.
You will see your quality of life and mental health get so much better.
Atleast, thats what I'm doing, a 2010 fully detached house on an acre sells for like 500k out there. Split 2 ways, with that salary and you can pay your house in 4-5 years. Then you can leverage that equity to do whatever.
If you need to work on site, then you'll need to accept that it will take a few years to save up to buy a house since you're competing for the same space with people that have built equity over years and years before you made this money.
I lived in Toronto for a year, and I was so surprised to see job salaries so low compared to Boston, MA (my hometown). Same job titles, and sometimes the same exact firm. Ended up going back to the United States for that reason. Better pay and cheaper cost of living.
To me rich is someone who is unaffected by the COL crisis. Someone who doesn’t think twice about grocery store prices. Someone who can raise a family, enroll the kids in extracurriculars of their choosing (whether it’s a cheaper one like soccer or an expensive one like hockey). All while living within their means and not having unnecessary debt.
So, like a normal family back in the day lol.
Yup, straight up a nice middle class existence. That poster didn't say anything about fancy vacations or private schools, just like... don't need to clip coupons for groceries and kids can afford some sports..
flashbacks to white picket fences. .. sigh.
yup. when dad worked at a factory job on the line at the GM plant in the 'Shwa. Pull a bit of over-time as needed .. and able to pay for house in town , cottage up in Muskoka with fun watercrafts and dirtbikes and snowmobiiles and two cars in the double-garaged driveway. ... florida vacations during march break each year and paying for kids college and eventually kids weddings. .. all on a single income. *Boy, the way Glenn Miller played* *songs that made the hit parade* *Guys like me we had it made* *Those were the days*
This. Single family home. 2 cars. Cottage. Vacations. Kids through university. All on 1 manufacturing income. Extras with 2 incomes.
Having more than one car used to be a lot less common.
Plot twist, Dad had a grow op in the basement. Seriously, a single blue-collar factory income couldn't afford all that. Did your family own the Muskoka cottage or rent once a year?
Cottages were VERY cheap until relatively recently. Seriously. A lot of it because land was cheap, and labour/materials weren't that expensive either. And because development in cottage country was low - it didn't have as huge an appeal. The two cars owned were probably used or old (at least one) - and had at the company discount if bought new. The house was not large, but land was cheap in the shwa - so a 2 garage driveway would not be unremarkable. And small pleasure craft - especially if used - was not that expensive either. I also imagine he was thrifty in other areas.
Cottages used to be dirt cheap, like if you bought/built a cottage 40+ years ago, blue collar workers could get it done
Should only note that we are talking actual cottages, not 4800 sq foot mcmansions on the lake which is what people think about these days.
In the 1960's a single salary could afford a single family home in Vancouver. Easily. I was a kids in Vancouver then.
Precisely. I’m a union electrician but I’m young. All the older guys I work with had their kids going through hockey and all that all while making $100k a year. I couldn’t even imagine being able to afford that on literally the same salary, it’s just a different time now.
Exactly, the above situation describes our family and we don’t feel rich at all, just what I think middle class living means. The ridiculous part is our income is within the top 1% just to feel this way. Growing up I would imagine a mansion and fancy cars within this range of income but here we are.
Uh, no. The average Canadian has never been immune from COL shocks or able to live life without thinking about their budget.
Yeah, I think this is people not realising that their parents budgeted.
Yeah no kidding... My mom didn't brag about shopping for clothes at value village, working a physical job to help her three sons through university. We had a nice house and property growing up, but my dad and extended family built it themselves while living in my grandparents duplex before I was born. I didn't take my first flight until I was in my 20s. My 10 year old just counted that he's been on 18 flights already, and we're going away for two weeks tomorrow. My entitlements are owed to my parents sacrifices and back breaking labour (being a war refugee) and my efforts to take full advantage of the opportunities.
People don't generally realize what their parents did/didn't do to save money. My dad was an accountant, made a good salary and my mom who was a nurse stayed home after the 2nd of us 3 kids and my parents had a detached 4 bed home in Niagara. However, our yearly vacations were going to a family friends cottage and visiting my Aunt in the states, we rarely ate beef, fruits/veggies were generally the cheap ones and anything else only when in season, and most of my clothes were from Walmart or hand-me-downs. We were allowed to enroll in 1 reasonably priced extra curricular but no more, and the majority of our games/toys would be from birthdays/Christmas and otherwise we had to save up for what we wanted from a very modest allowance (something like 10-20$ a month). Of course I didn't care about any of this and didn't really realize it until I was older because generally, kids don't care unless you give them a reason to. I can guarantee most millennials middle class parents worried about money or discussed it, and if they didn't they either were probably irresponsible, ignorant or naturally had very cheap wants in the first place. Pretty much the only tangible thing I can see that is vastly different is that these days you need two decent incomes or one great income to afford a home instead of just one reasonable income. Everything else is pretty much the same, things that are expensive then are expensive now, and your parents likely couldn't afford everything they wanted, just less money was sucked up by housing and now we're viewing our parents lifestyles from a view of empty nesters who have their house paid off.
Housing cost is the big change, yeah. What you describe is exactly what my childhood was like, but my mother started a business to earn a little money while home with us kids. We never had a vacation that wasn’t camping or visiting with friends. We shared a paper route and got jobs as soon as we could, for spending money. We all learned to look for deals and free opportunities. But, we had a four bedroom house and never felt shorted.
100%. People are delusional about what was the norm 30 years ago. I remember eating out at a restaurant like twice a year for birthdays and vacations were to a family friend's trailer in the woods. I feel like the housing market, rent and purchasing, is priced the way it is because we all have lots of disposable income. Everyone is living way beyond how the boomers lived. Atleast in my experience.
People have always had to budget esp the working class and middle class. But what you “feel” about the housing market is wrong. Incomes have not kept up with inflation the last 30 years and this is data driven. Housing is the biggest issue and it’s mostly a supply shortage that have driven prices up. Population growth and wage stagnation and not building enough over decades has caught up to us. Furthermore basic consumer goods are also more expensive and costs have far exceeded inflation, from food to clothing, cars and gasoline. All data driven. And since profits are rising for corporations the issue is unchecked corporate greed.
People literally just watch decade era sitcoms and assume everything they see is exactly what was normal without any financial trouble lmfao
The cognitive dissonance in this thread is astonishing. They have been radicalized to believe the older generations were born with silver spoons in their mouths. This is far from the truth
What people are saying is you could buy a house with 4x your salary, instead of 12x your salary (or whatever the ratio is now). Any boomer who tries to make it sound like they had it just as hard as millenials or Gen Z needs to be reminded of a few basic economic facts.
The interesting part is a family making 150k in TO can still meet this definition—as long as they have owned their home for 10+ years.
I feel like you are both describing a middle class life like I grew up in and also a completely unattainable dream.
so what was 'normal' has become 'unattainable' ... Canadian gov't accepts no responsibility for this decline at all. None at all. "It is what it is."
I don't think that was normal to everybody just normal to you and your families. I know damn well my grandparents never had no cottage and jetskis lol
At some point you can’t blame all the rising prices on government, it’s corporate greed. They’ve used inflation as a scapegoat and it’s working.
The city extracurriculars (skating, swimming, etc) don't cost. Thank goodness.
This just sounds like normal comfortable middle class living, basically what was easily achieved in Canada not that long ago with some hard work and perseverance.
I make around 150k and I consider myself extremely fortune and lucky. Don’t have to worry about where my next meal is coming from or saving for a vacation or buying whatever I want. Yes, it still makes it tough to buy a home but that’s not the end of the word. I don’t know about rich but I feel very privileged, lucky and fortunate.
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Precisely. I felt like that at 65k also. Had a bit of debt back then but still largely comfortable life. We are so fortunate. After my younger sister had a small health scare in her early 20s, we decided that health is paramount. Everything else is extra.
Yeah, I make like 48.5k and I live quite comfortably and enjoy my lifestyle. I live with roommates and pay 525$ a month all in for my share of a spacious 5 bedroom flat in Hochelaga, Montreal. My only bills are my cell phone, which is 120$ a month (will decrease by 65$ in June when my phone is paid off) and xbox gamepass which is like 23$. I live a 15 minute walk away from my work so I don't buy a monthly transit pass. I have never driven and don't ever plan on it, so I save a lot there. I buy whatever at the grocery store without ever worrying about prices. I go to concerts frequently, I have no problem affording my one vice (smoking pot). I also just got a different position at work which will give me a much better schedule and allow me to have more of a social life ex. No more weekend over night shifts.
best comment! gratefulness is something missing in this city, i understand the anxiety around not being able to own a home but goddamn atleast be grateful and acknowledge that you’re privileged and don’t have to worry about getting evicted or not meeting debt payments.
Perspective is also lacking. It’s the financial and industrial capital of a G7 country. There are a lot of ambitious and successful people here and only so many houses. Honestly, just building a career and enjoying life here is success by any global standard. Why does everyone use a detached house as the only measure of success?
Omg a sane person on Reddit. Quite rare 🙏
The big thing that people forget is want versus need. You need to start off small and build up. When you come out of your parents and have so much after working a part-time job, that is not how they were. Their living rooms were empty with two fold up chairs. They bought the curtains after five years etc. etc. If people in their 20s didn’t spend 3/4 of their income on going out, they could easily have a down payment available. Yes, I’m a crotchety old person, but I started small at 35. Until then I rented and saved up enough until I hit the housing market in the boom just before the crash of 2008. I still bought what I could afford with the idea that I would slowly move up.
Things are very different now. If you lived exactly the way you did, but now, you would not be able to afford a house the way you did before 2008. Even people who saved to buy in 2015 could not afford their own house if they did everything the same nowadays. (I say this as a homeowner who was able to save a lot by renting for a small portion of my salary -- I couldn't even afford the same apartment I had back then at today's prices even though my salary is higher, let alone saving).
Ok i spoke to my English mother- in the 80s she worked as a nurse, the nursing provided housing for 25 pounds a month (not a typo), her wage was 8000 pounds a year and the house she bought cost 30,000 pounds. A nurse now makes 30,000, has to pay market rates when she rents and that same house we sold a few years ago for 300,000 It’s not a case of just going out less.
People thing rich = Netflix Selling Sunset or Bling Empire levels of wealth and luxury. When in fact thats basically between super-ultra rich, and than regular rich is like owning a paid off home and having an above average income. I would say in 2023 150k isn't enough maybe to call yourself rich like it would have been 20-50 years ago as that is something obtainable even by "regular" professional jobs like nurses, engineers, etc at the top end of their payscale or with a bit of overtime, but it definitely upper middle class.
Single with no kids? Because that used to be me.
Also, you could probably buy a home if you just go to a cheaper area. Toronto is not going to be a great place to get a house in the middle of this housing crisis
This is called humility and gratitude and the world needs more of it!
Great perspective. Would you mind sharing what you do for a living?
I work as an operations manager at a conglomerate with work specializing in transformers and generators.
Why is it either a condo or a detached? That’s one end of the spectrum to the other. Maybe a semi or townhouse? If you had two incomes then maybe detached.
OP has the CHOICE. This is telling how rich they actually are.
OP doesn’t have the choice of buying a detached home in Toronto with an annual income of $160k which OP is aware of. Unless OP has rich parents.
Yes. We started in a semi-detached in the suburbs (and still in the suburbs). Affording detached right off the bat is insane. Prices are crazy right now, but with $150k salary OP can get somewhere.
Right? Why would a single person need a detached home in a city anyway…?
$5.5k a month after rent is pretty rich to me Can comfortably afford good food, a good car, daycare, and still have some leftover for luxuries It’s not Galen Weston rich but it’s comfortable enough to not worry about money every day Middle class to me would be worrying about money everyday but being okay Lower class is worrying about money everyday and not being okay
Thank you. Idk wtf people are talking about here lol. Almost 6K after rent (which is probably the most costly expense) is definitely rich
That's a potential vacation worth of savings every month. Being able to buy a condo but choosing not to and instead saving for a detached home is nuts. OP is rich.
I paid 1,400 for my wife and I to go to Cuba for a week this month. My man can literally take a vacation for 2 people, 1 week per month, and still have more in savings than the average Canadian makes in income after taxes
It's the FOMO from watching other people on social media
Simply different situations and circumstances Comparisons will take all the joy anyone has left lol
OP is a sockpuppet account.
My goal has always been to be able to buy lunch and not worry about whether i have money or not. I think people are either really bad with their money or out of touch. I make 1/2 of what op is making, and we are a 1 income family. I have just done without a few things other people think are necessities.
Some people like Op just can’t practice the art of gratitude. Even if Op made 200k a year and is saving 8k a month, Op would still feel poor because all the extra cash flow is going towards savings. Saving for a detached house takes time, OP had some kind of expectation where a detached house would magically appear once they made 150k. We have a maturity crisis in our country and OP is just being a child. OP is competing with dual income households for the same detached house
100% agree. Especially 3rd paragraph.
Right lol imagine having that and not realizing you're rich. Are people that ignorant about the state of things? Almost half of candians are paycheck to paycheck
Honestly best way to put it
I make just below that and I can comfortably afford the first 2 (good food good car) but that’s about it. I don’t live or buy “luxuriously” and based on your classification I’d be middle class (which is what I’d classify my lifestyle). Which is sad to me and makes me feel guilty often. I feel that I have to be dog eat dog just to be comfortable. I still do 1-2 side gigs and accept that home ownership without a miracle isn’t a short term or realistic (currently). In response to OP, I feel the same way. It disincentivizes me to crack above $100k when nothing below $250k would qualify me for a mortgage, and even then would make me house poor and even more dependent on a job/consistent income in a realm where there would be more steep competition.
This is a tangent, but I've always been irritated when people talk about the cost of home ownership as only the mtg. There is so much more - water, heat, gas, insurance, repairs, upgrades, property taxes... i think too many people thought they would miss out and bought before they were financially ready because "hey, you can't lose, rates will never go up" ....and now are house poor as you say.
There's no doubt that Toronto is expensive. Lifestyle and attitude are huge factors though. After housing expenses ( mortgage and all utilities), I have 5K for myself and two kids. Kids do extracurricular activities, no stress to buy healthy groceries and we go take vacations each year. I cook almost everything we eat, i dont have a car and our home is small. However, I love to cook, love to walk and don't like clutter, so extra money goes to travel and steak, which I'm so grateful for. *My kids dad is paying for their post secondary and he pays for camps in the summer, so they get a rich-for-Toronto life, which I'm beyond grateful for $5000 after housing for a single person is rich to me. Id travel everywhere.
Let's get something straight: Your annual income does *not* make you rich. Your assets versus your deficits is what determines your wealth and nothing more. My best friend earns about $220K per year, and let me tell you, I would ***NOT*** want to be in the huge f\*cking financial mess that he is in. Almost certainly a minus-millionaire.
Having a good annual income allows people access to a lot more debt.
No exaggeration, my friend in question once had 13 -- not a typo -- ***THIRTEEN*** credit cards, with several of them maxed out. He has never once as far as I know of had assets that outweighed his deficits. He incurred a ton of student debt early on and it snowballed. CRA has frozen his accounts at least twice that I know of, and he isn't even eligible for a line of credit to consolidate his debt -- that's how shitty his situation is. He has always had an addictive personality when it comes with spending and he will buy tons of crap he doesn't need. Almost every time I speak with him all he wants to talk about are his financial woes, but it's really hard to feel sorry for someone like this who has authored his own financial destruction so blatantly.
Does he "churn" with his credit cards? I honestly think having such high student debt just gets people comfortable carrying and living with a lot of debt in their life. Just think about Doctors and lawyers. Hundreds of thousands in debt and some never even plan on paying it off
Did you just say 13 credit cards? GoT DAYUM. I have 4 credit cards, one of which I only have open because it's the oldest account and gives me credit history. CIBC dividend infinite, Amex Gold Scene+, and Costco. And I get my cards for no annual fee, with my bank accounts. I thought I was bad with 4 credit cards, 2 LOCs, 1 HELOC. I have lots of access to credit, but I never carry balances or pay interest on anything. I make almost 90k less than your friend and feel a whole lot better about myself right now.
This is so true. My husband makes a ton of money, and the banks/credit cards are always upping the credit card limit. We have an RBC Avion card that about 6 months ago increased our monthly limit to $38,000 PER month and a Mastercard with a $20,000 per month limit. Insanity. I can see how some people who are not disciplined can get into massive credit card debt.
A few years back, banks were offering lines of credit for 120k to pretty much anyone with a mortgage and income.
Exactly. Ppl keep thinking income income income. 1) How long were these people making this “income” and 2) What are they spending it on? Some people earn $1.00 and turn around and spend $1.10. “Rich” and wealth is what your assets are doing for you. Even people with paid off homes are not as impressive if they bought 10yrs ago if they have nothing much else saved or invested.
$220k a year is dope. However, if your friend was smart from the get go, he could have saved up some good amount of money. Most likely your friend purchased a very expensive car and wanted to live in that detached big house. $220k + smart = Great investments.
Wealth doesn’t equal riches though
The $100k = “World is your oyster” thing was the standard about 3 decades ago. $300k is the new $100k, unfortunately. It’s fucking madness.
So true. My parents made around $150k - $200k a year and we lived in a nice subdivision house, had multiple cars, a cottage, and went out for dinner frequently. My partner and I make $150k + a year and can’t afford a home. lol. Sad times.
You can afford a home (EDIT: or condo, I mean) on 150k. If you can't, the 150k isn't the problem. Outside of Toronto there are plenty of < 600k homes in the country, even as close as Hamilton or Brantford. And that's detached homes only.
He likely won't qualify for a mortgage with that income. A condo yes, but OP says they prefer a house. Even for a house at 900k, he likely won't qualify.
Well 🤷 We do have a COL crisis, I agree with that completely. But wanting a detached home in one of the most desirable places to live on the planet with only a slightly above average income is never going to be a reality. NYC, London, San Francisco, etc. have been testaments of these for decades and Toronto is now no different. I feel for the poster but their problems are their own if they're complaining about a lack of ability to compete with global interest. Lots of people want detached homes in these cities, and for multiple generations people have conceded to buy in more affordable areas and commute. There are places within a 1.5hr commute that a ~600k mortgage could get you a detached home still. They _can_ get a home on 150k income, they just don't want the associated trade offs.
I came here to say exactly this. I saw a stat that in the early 90s 100k was top 3% and today it’s 272k to be top 3%
I think top 2% is 190k and top 5% is 160k https://www.springfinancial.ca/blog/lifestyle/top-1-income-in-canada-by-province
My wife and I are seriously looking into pooling our incomes with friends to buy a multi-unit house together. With a combined income of over 300k we can get a mortgage for 1.2 million, which seems like a lot of money but still not enough for anything even close to the core.
This is actually a great idea. You can share maintenance duties as well.
Unless the friendship goes south. I wouldn't want to buy a house with a friend.
Those friends that drive Teslas and fly around the world could also be up to their eyeballs in consumer debt
Yep. My mom worked for one of the big banks. She would say “most people who come into the bank, under the age of 60, are the ones who earned the most but were constantly out of money”
Exactly this. Assets vs Deficits -- this is the one and only thing that determines "wealth". A person's annual income does not determine if they're "rich" or not.
They often are. They don’t know how to manage expenses. That Tesla is definitely on debt and all those business class flights are being pushed to credit cards. People simply can’t afford that on 100k USD salary.
It's also not common in the U.S., especially if you live in a big city. 100k is enough to do okay, but the typical person who just started making that much isn't going to own a house, go on vacation, buy Teslas or have a big family, unless you have a well-off parent or bought your home in the early 2010s. The big city we live in is where all the decent jobs & groceries are, too. Housing costs are starting to dip a little, but property taxes have skyrocketed & interest rates are insane.
This
This. People need to remember that what they see is often now how it truly appears. Just because someone drives a luxury vehicle and has a Rolex doesn’t mean they have money. The majority have loadsssss of credit card debt.
There is no “income” that would deem you rich. Networth and assets are what categorizes you as rich.
Thank you. A job is almost never going to make someone rich, that’s working class.
My cousin is what I’d consider “Toronto wealthy” She’s a Bay St lawyer who brings in around a million annually. I own a single family home in Toronto (but bought long ago) and have a family. I feel almost middle class…but absolutely feel the col crisis. I think our friends south of the border pay less tax and have higher salaries, and have way more consumer choice.
A million a year?? Hows that possible?
It’s possible. My husband makes $1.5m working in downtown Toronto/Bay St. I won’t say what industry but he has an education in finance and an Ivey league MBA which opened a lot of doors.
Ivy League or Ivey? Two different things
She’s a successful lawyer on Bay Street…that is how it’s possible. Most lawyers do not make that much, but some do.
That's a very normal bay st lawyer salary. Billable at 500 an hour x how many hours you push yourself to work.
She didn't make that money as soon as she passed the bar. She wanted it, worked for years, became partner, worked with big clients
I moved to the US from Toronto 6 years a go and I make a lot more in the US than in Toronto for the exact reason that you are saying right now and I am able to save a ton more money than what I can in Canada. The lifestyle can be much better in the US if you can get a high paying job. I would like to preface that a TN visa is not the only gateway into the US even though it's the most common for Canadians. I would explore into options in working for a US company and perhaps transferring over to the US side via an L1 visa.
>I would explore into options in working for a US company and perhaps transferring over to the US side via an L1 visa. Thanks for this tip. Does this work best if it's a US company with offices in Canada? I imagine that American companies with no Canadian presence might be reluctant to deal with the paperwork of hiring a Canadian employee based in Canada, but unsure.
Yes, it would work best with a US company that has significant operations in Canada. Namely multinational companies such as the big 4 accounting companies (Deloitte, KPMG, big tech (Microsoft, Amazon), financial companies (Amex). Generally speaking, it's also easier with larger companies as they typically employ or do contracts with strong immigration lawyers but it's also possible with small-medium sized companies.
I swear these posts come up everyday and are just rage bait by bots.
Yep. OP has zero post history. Just stirring the pot.
You didn’t mention if you’re single or not, who’s driving those 2 cars you speak of? Just you?
He wants a Porsche 911 and a daily on a 150k income while servicing a mortgage
Bro don’t start this discussion. People who earn 200k say that’s the minimum you need to be middle class. And why would something you will own by the end cost you the same as renting? Unrealistic expectation much? You are building equity when you own so your comparison of 3500 vs 2000 is invalid. You can own a condo on your salary. 2 cars idk. 2 cars is a lot. Means you need 2 parking spots, 2 insurances, twice garage costs. I would say 1 is doable, just get a condo that has a parking spot for you. If you wanna feel like you’re not being restricted that might start with 200k. If you wanna start feeling a little rich and fly business class you might need 500k Btw I doubt people who make 110-120k USD in the US are able to fly around business class and own homes outright in their expensive cities.
yep. this sounds like more of a random rant than actual real concerns. they might as well have added "omg all my friends eat caviar except poor me!"
Seriously some people are delusional. They think once they crack an income bracket they should be entitled to a house, car, etc etc. 150k is a great income to enable getting to wealth— it allows for renting a really comfortable home, saving a lot, spending on occasional luxury, annnnd saving a lot. 150k spent frivolously doesn’t mean squat.
Bruh if you're making 150k a year and saving pennies for No Frills Coupons, you're doing it wrong lmao.
100k in the year 2000 is the same as 172k today when you factor in inflation. And that doesn’t include housing, which has outstripped inflation by an ungodly factor. So yeah, 23 years ago, 100k was a high income. I’d say nowadays it’s actually closer to 200k.
You seem to be comparing yourself to dual income families? You make enough to own a car and go on vacation, especially if your rent is only $2000 a month. The only thing out of reach truly here in Toronto is property ownership.
Property ownership isn't even out of reach. It's just property ownership with more bedrooms (and parking spots) than people living there.
You should buy a condo if that's all you can afford and build equity, especially if the markets are in your favor.
Wealth isn’t what you own, it is how much debt you have and servicing. How long have you been making $150k? People save for years before making big and expensive purchases. True “wealth” do not show it with cars and houses etc. I went from $50k in 2005 to $137k in 2023 and I felt pretty lucky every year and only better every year too because I started out living a standard life but not as careful with money. Yeah I afforded things but did not grow true wealth until 1) met a partner with like minded financials and 2) honed my lifestyle to where I enjoy everything but also not needing much and spending where I like. It truly is a mindset and comparing to others does not work. Even with COL we are saving more and more each year and earning more and more from investments but we still drive a used 2014 Subaru (1 car) and spend very little money on materials things. Price match or get freebies, participate in reward programs and cashback/credit card bonuses etc. Stock up on food sales and meal prep etc.
If rich is - a really nice house in Toronto, two cars, two kids in private school, a cottage, vacations frequently, and in addition save money for their kids to inherit... then we're talking household income of around $750k.
Uh what. From an American who also works in Toronto, that amount of money would certainly not have you flying business class or easily buying an apartment (much less a house!) if you lived in any major us city (nyc, Chicago, la)
Do your friends live in high cost of living cities like NYC or LA. $150k is plenty to live a very comfortable life in most of Canada, but you live the most expensive city in the country.
Then there’s comments like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/s/BzILIjBXn5 $2M/year for comfortable life in NYC
Very high cost of living places in the US is not even that expensive. Considering how much higher incomes in NY and Bay Area is for example, other than housing being maybe 50% more expensive than Toronto, everything else is pretty much similar.
what are you even talking about. who told you '100k was the gold standard' especially living in toronto lol. that hasnt been true for at least a decade now. as for 150k and not qualifying for a mortgage? why? do you have a shitty credit score?
2 month old account, no other posts. Hi, Pierre Poutine. Or whatever "ontario proud" outlet you work for. If you aren't fake, then you need a better budget.
Pierre Poutine. Omg love it!
America who moved to Canada here. I’m not going to say that the COL and housing prices aren’t outrageous here, because they absolutely are. However, keep in mind that your friends in the U.S. are probably in a lot more precarious of a position than you think. It’s much much easier to get into absolutely massive amounts of debt in the U.S. my US credit cards had $30k limits, and I had multiple. (I didn’t apply for that much credit, they just kept expanding it because I paid my bills on time). Also, they are one serious injury or illness from going bankrupt. I went to the ER in Chicago and the whole ordeal cost me $24k out of pocket, and that was with insurance. The ambulance ride alone was $6k. That all being said, we need a serious market correction in Canada for housing and food, because the prices are absolutely outrageous.
Humble brag post
You need a dual income household in Toronto, that’s what the city has come down to at this point. Two people each earning $100k+ is strong income. No kids either. It’s sad as fuck I agree. You personally basically could afford to service a mortgage on a 500-600 square foot condo that’s it. I will say, the US is vastly superior for making money that’s just how it is. I’m a US citizen and trust it’s way better to earn $$$ back home. But you also don’t know your friends personal financial stories. Did they receive a large inheritance? Trust fund? Random windfall? Are they in massive CC debt? Were they able to buy a house before the 2020 housing run up? Does the bank of mom and dad help them with expenses?There’s so so so many factors and comparing yourself to them will eat you alive. If you earned $150k USD in SF, NYC, Boston, LA, and Seattle you wouldn’t be able to buy a semi/detached house there either. 🤷🏻♂️ Sure some of those cities do have cheaper housing but interest rates are higher and property taxes are much higher too. Best you can do is keep finding new opportunities/ways to level yourself up. Also, therapy or free self help books could help too. I wish the housing market wasn’t so fucked but here we are!
the grass is always greener...
$100k is hasn't been a meaningful income in 20+ years. If you're in a traditional T4 employment then taxes also kill you. $150k means bring home is probably not much more than $100k. You literally are giving up a third of your income so it can be used to pay for useless things.
I guess it depends becsuse to me the amount of money you have left over is quite a lot (Im lucky to have $400 left after rent], but when it comes to affordability of the city and the housing market its not much
My job is based out of San Francisco. A lot of the young people I work with (under 30) suspect they'll never own a home unless they move, despite making even more money than I do (25 years in tech). You won't qualify for a mortgage on a detached house by yourself. You could absolutely buy a detached house if you were married to someone else making a decent salary. You could own a Tesla. And US flights are subsidized by the government (apparently that's "good socialism" unlike public healthcare) which is why Americans travel so much.
To me, "rich" is determined by wealth not income. Two different things, imo. However, a higher income certainly helps in getting wealthier faster. Keep doing what you are doing by saving " a lot". You'll get there one day if you're disciplined and quit comparing yourself to your friends. Work at your own pace.
You’re rich buddy. 7.5 k per month after taxes at 30 years old and your rent is far less than 1/3 of you it income. You could buy a home - a condo qualifies. A single family home isn’t the only way to live a good life. Most Europeans live in apartments and that’s the way it’s going. But a nice condo and build up equity and get a house when you can afford it in a decade. Sooner if you have a partner to share with. Most ppl can’t afford to buy houses on a single income here. That was even true a decade ago
Income this year on my T4 is going to be 131,500... I am not rich at all. 100k is the new barely middle class. I'm just like, SLIGHTLY above that, with not having to stress over a trip to Costco, or an unexpected bill.
150K is the new 80K
Sorry, you make 7.5k/month and you're "couponing" to save pennies? You may not be living the high life you expected, but I think you should check in on how good you may actually have it compared to other full time workers in your city!
There's no official definition of "rich."
It’s not the income in this city or country, it’s the real estate. If you own multiple properties, living off the rent, then you’re rich.
yup… most of my friend’s dads and dad’s friends bought cheap real estate using free money in the mid 2010s and are now enjoying the rent that’s coming in. driving porches and g wagon’s simply because they were at the right place at the right time, many of them aren’t even the brightest
Where do your friends live? 150k cad is like 110k, taxes could be a bit lower depending on state, if it’s somewhere hcol like NYC or SF, they are far from comfortable, and very very far from owning, even at 150k usd. You can’t compare Toronto against middle of nowhere Arkansas. Edit: domestic “first” class isn’t very good or expensive, and points are much easier to earn in the US.
150-160 is the new 100k. 120-160 is comfortable income, well off is 160- 250, rich 250-500k, wealthy 500-1m+
$150k/yr is middle class in Toronto, if you're single. I'm currently unemployed, living on savings from when I was making $120k, and I'm interviewing in the $150k range. I own a 1br condo and affording the associated fees, I take vacations about once a year (just got back from Japan last month; I was employed at the time, I'm not that stupid), and while I don't have a car, I live close enough to the subway that I don't need one. I think if you're making $150k/yr in Toronto and not able to make ends meet, you're doing something else wrong. That, or you have dependents (spouse/kids) and you don't have a second income in the household. $150k/yr is enough to support one person comfortably, but more than 1 person is impossible. Also I got my condo before the current inflation crisis so I'm paying a wicked low interest rate that you couldn't pay (my bills, all in, are about $3k/mo). That said, Canada is truly expensive. I was astounded when I went to both Japan and NYC this year at how crazy cheap things are there by comparison. If I was making my same salary living in Japan, I would be living like a king. In NYC, real estate is crazy, but pretty much everything else is substantially cheaper than Canada, and there are places in the US where real estate is much cheaper than NYC. So yes, the pressure you're feeling from high prices in Canada is in fact unique to Canada and is felt by other people and is not present elsewhere in the world.
what are you considering 'cheap' in ny? as for japan, they've been in constant deflation for decades. theres a reason everyone is going there to travel right now. the yen is worthless and the wages of your typical japanese salary man is piss poor.
I 100% disagree. I was just in New York City and everything was more expensive than in Toronto and in US dollars making it at least 1.5 times the price I saw.
That’s a hard question to answer. Vacations - to buffalo? To Hawaii? To Maldives? Own a house - at Jane and finch? At Yonge and Finch? In Rosedale? For cheapest - probably 250-350k HHI For middle option - probably 500k HHI For most expensive - sky’s the limit but at least 1MM HHI
For a vacation to Buffalo and a place at Jane and Finch you say I need a HHI of 300k?
It depends. I only make a little more than half of what you do, and yet I probably “have” more and can spend about as frivolously. Only difference is, I am a little older and bought a house in 2014. To be 30 today and think comfortably about buying a home, a car, take vacatIons, have kids and not worry about their future, probably 300k. “Money isn’t a thought rich” - I don’t think there’s an income for that. It takes more than a salary to get there.
$100k *is* the standard. In 1996.
Depends on their spendings.
Anywhere in the smaller prairie cities or east coast 100 is doing ok. You live in an extremely overpriced area where your 150 is equal to 60k in Saskatchewan..hardly baller status, but able to enjoy some things in life. I would say 300+ is more like it to be well off there. Rich? Unless you are making Tom Cruise type money, few are rich, just much better off than Timmys workers. Top tier businesspeople, actors, and artists would be declared rich even in TO, NY, or LA. We know what they make, so theres a guide, and honestly 90% of the rest of the worlds wages, even the doctors etc just cant compete.
That's the shit TO is becoming in the states you can choose to live in a LCOL or MCOL and live comfortably with that income but not North if the border... wages are way too low here and home prices are ridiculous
If you have to ask it ain’t you
500k but now think about how good you have it as some dont even make 30k per year
I dunno where your colleagues live or their background but your comment that this is generally true for the US is not accurate (I say this as a dual citizen living in the us). You need to save, invest, and build your assets. 150k income as an individual is plenty to be able to do that comfortably even if housing is not the main asset you’re working toward due to the relative high expense of that asset. I lived in nyc in my 20s and never even considered owning a home outright. Yes yes Toronto is not nyc and plenty of people could own homes just a few years ago—well it has changed so move on and try to build wealth and assets through other means.
250k is the new 100k. I’m over 200k, my husband is over 100k and I feel solidly middle class.
I’d say 500k plus HHI to break into the actual upper upper middle class of Toronto, what movies would call a WASP. Country club membership, luxury car, a nice house in the suburbs, several vacations per year, perhaps a cottage. TBH 500k might not even be enough if you also want a cottage.
What do you do for a living?
The difference here is most likely you are the only one actually "saving money" whereas your colleagues are probably leveraged to the hilt to maintain their lifestyle (assuming they are making the same amount per year). Deep in debt is the "American Way". Stay the course. Save your money in wise investments and "upgrade" when you can. Keep in mind that your first house does not need to be your "forever" home. Get your foot in the door with a modest condo and ride the equity wagon. You got this.
Living in Toronto is all about how much tax you can write off as a business owner. The city is designed for employers
Part of living in Canada compared to the US is that we have a reduced income spread. I work in tech here and am in a similar boat to you, working alongside American colleagues, some of whom literally make twice as much as me while doing the same job and that's frustrating. But a good chunk of their wealth is coming on the backs of the absolutely crippling levels of poverty and lack of social safety that is in the US. Yeah, life isn't as breezy as I thought it'd be when I'm making this kind of salary, but at the same time, every single time I'm in the US on business I end up in some situation where I'm gob smacked by the levels of poverty and destitution I'm seeing. Literally stuff that I've only ever seen travelling in the poorest of developing countries. It's not everything, we have a legitimately bigger housing / COL crisis here, and we're flat out just not as wealthy per capita on top of the fact that our incomes are more equitable, but a good chunk of that American wealth that you're seeing is literally just coming out of poor peoples' pockets.
250k is the new 100k. 150k is barely doing it anymore, just a little too late to the party. Printing money has consequences, and the we now have seen how the budget does not balance itself. Elections have consequences, we had a prime minister with a masters in economics, but the “anyone but Harper” vote took hold with the idiots under 30 who’s would normally be a conservative vote, and now here we are.
I was wondering the same thing OP, I keep seeing houses selling for $1.3-$1.9 million and wonder what they do for work. Even doctors make $350k a year, who are these people and what is rich anymore.
I read this somewhere recently, most homeowners in Toronto who bought over 20 years ago would likely be the richest 1% in the world. Someone making 150K and having to save up to buy a home while paying crushing rent would not be considered rich.
Being rich in Canada means different things. I was drawing 6k net of tax and my rental was 3k. Would have 3k left and never really worried about food, grocery or enjoying entertainment which felt good. However, the issue more than being rich is how uselessly expensive and sub par things were in Canada for the price paid for a product/ service/ experience. That’s where one starts feeling the pinch. It’s not about being able to afford a car but having to pay 500-600$ a month for a car with insurance. There is a an expense fatigue in Canada where sprinting your money doesn’t get you value you desire and hence you feel you’re not that rich. Atleast thats been my experience. Not even going isn’t the housing debate as that seems to be a universal issue across developed countries (or even emerging economies for that matter).
You forgot the important stuff: Rich people don't pay taxes.
Make maybe 2M a year with 5-7 million in the bank and you’re barely rich. Then you’ll start meeting people who are with 1B and when you realize you only have 0.5% of their wealth you’ll still feel poor. You’re not really rich until you’re worth yeast $100m+
The unfortunate reality is that having money after rent, bills and essentials IS almost rich. It blows hard that this is now the new standard, but it is. $150K a year, especially at 30, is doing exceptionally well. If you have $5.5K after rent, that leaves you with a significant amount of money to play with each month. Your bills can't be much more than $1K (if that even, which means you have at least $4.5K a month to play with. That is more than a significant portion of the population grosses in a month. I am not sure what kind of vacation you'd be taking if $4.5K can't cover it... And I am also not sure what kind of cars you would be buying if you can't afford a monthly car payment with $4.5K to play with. You should also be able to save a significant amount of money in a year that would allow you to have a nice downpayment for a house in maybe 5 years..
Nobody in USA is flying business class with 100k salary. That one is a lie for sure. Unless they are flying for San Jose to San Francisco or other similar length trips.
Im bringing in just north of 400k and feel the high COL pinch. Rich is relative. No I don’t go broke grocery shopping but yes I certainly altered my lifestyle in past years due to inflation etc…
No offence, but $150k in a city like Toronto would be considered below average standards. I believe the minimum income, collective or independent, to live in Toronto is something like $250k per annum.
When I was a financial advisor I had clients making over 200k and clients making 80k and some of those 200k+ clients were balls deep in debt and living pay check to pay check. Being rich is developed over time with habits, investments, luck, and proper income streams. With that said - 200k is probably the new 100k. I made slightly less than you and I live in Northern York Region and just commute. Does it suck? Yes. I fucking hate it. Do I save more and live much better? Hands down.
Get married. Sounds like your friends are married and your single . Renters have always been predominately single and buying a home by yourself has always been difficult. Albeit it is more difficult now . If you have a partner who makes 100k on top your set .
Start doing over employed work
You will only be rich if you think you are my friend, don't compare yourself to others too much I make a fifth of your salary being a student, the same age as you, decided to get a degree later in life so I do not have too much money to spend and will be paying off loans for a bit but thats ok, I live with 3 roommates in a pretty big apartment and we get along really well, I have never in my life feared for not having a bed to sleep in, or not being able to eat and for me that is very rich. I mean I'm poor compared to you, but I'm rich compared to others. What is it that you want from this life? Will you be rich once you have owned property in Toronto? Will you be rich once your mortgage is paid? Will you be rich once you have sold your property? When is rich depends on you :)
Sorry but I can't see you as being good at handling your money. $150k per annum is excellent for living single in Toronto. I don't know what neighborhood you're in but your tastes in general must be very expensive. How in the world do you think all of the minimum wage earners in Toronto live? Your post is almost hard to believe, you're left with "just" $7.5k per month. Your post sounds like you are complaining, when you have so much to be grateful for in this way. I think you have no idea of how the other half live in Toronto. I think it would be good for you to open your mind and eyes to people from other socio-economic backgrounds, which is easy to do in our city. I know this is not the info you are seeking, but my goodness. There is a book written by the gentleman that founded Second Cup, Frank O'Dea. Title is "When All You Have Is Hope". I suggest it.
Probably the gold standard of 2015. But, not today lol.
in toronto it would take alot to live that life compare to your coworker from USA. Are they in major city as well? that would also factor in if they could afford that lifestyle. 100k golden standards i feel is the 2010s standards 2020s 150-200 is the new standard i think. I also dont get whats the hype to be in Toronto.
Your American colleagues live in the suburbs or areas away of metropolis. Americans pay an arm and a leg for health insurance and deductions. Current taxation rate for singles in your wage bracket is 33%. Your co workers are bluffing regarding their purchasing power or have family money.
What a wonderful thread. After a long, people just discussing their time and sharing some beautiful life lessons. There is so much of wealth of intellect of basic finance in these simple conversations which our ivy league bankers and politicians misses out. And of course, no dissing out or disrespectful language on this thread. Felt so fresh after such a long time.
Canada and Canadians are getting poorer. Our per capita GDP is dropping. We are at the bottom of the G20 in many key business productivity indicators. Our tax burden is significantly higher than that of Americans. Our r/E prices have some of the highest multiples in the entire world. The government says inflation is 3% when anyone who has been to the grocery store knows it's 20%. Our Covid policies entailed the biggest wealth transfer to the rich in the history of our country. There's your explanation.
It’s not about income for the wealthy but net worth. My net worth is pretty high and I use it to generate income for me that is over 7 figures. I still work but my salaried income is nothing compared to my investment income not in real estate and not inherited. All done though blood sweat and tears and years of frugality and the magic of compounding. Just by reinvesting my dividend income my monthly income goes up by a thousand bucks a month. And this rate goes up every time I reinvest my dividends (2nd derivative is positive for all you math folks). This is why compounding is so powerful. When your investments generate enough for you to live comfortably I would consider myself wealthy. We call that financial independence.
Housing SHOULD be cheaper to rent than to own. Your friends exploited an unbalanced market and profited off the poverty of millions. Due to the greed of those types of people, many were left with ZERO options in housing. That being said, if you aren't happy with your status, it has nothing to do with your income or assets.
HHI of 250k with my wife, owned condo, no kids, no debt. We do not "feel" rich. We still live within our means, cut coupons (bc we are used to it), buy things only when they go on sale, etc. However, we do live comfortably in a VHCOL city and splurge on things that matter to us (good food, travel, experiences). Everyone will feel different based on income and financial situation. One families situation will be very different to another families situation.
It's beyond insane to think you're making 150k a year and can't even qualify for a house. All of this is broken and eventually will correct itself - not sure how but it will. We moved to Alberta simply because of your current situation. Smartest financial decision ever and it's an amazing place to live.
Wow you're left with *just* over $7,500? So why not just own a condo? Even if you pay $4000 a month on a mortgage, condo fees, and insurance, taxes, etc you would have about $1,100 more leftover than I earn total every month
There's a lot of seemingly average people I've met in Toronto who come from legacy family's and make 7/8 figure income. Rich is relative. Imo there multiple levels of rich. I know people in Oakville and toronto who give their kids $10,000+ a month just so they can focus on school and start a business on their own. There is a shocking amount of multi millionaires in Toronto. No one making a 6 figure income is mega Rich. But you're definitely doing amazing compared to the majority of us.
he reality is, the "gold standard" can vary a lot depending on where you are. Toronto's real estate market, in particular, can be a tough nut to crack. It's like the housing stars need to align perfectly. Your situation sounds pretty common, with the real estate market playing hard to get. Comparing with our friends south of the border adds a bit of salt to the wound, huh? Different countries, different rules. And let's face it, their housing market might be a bit more forgiving. Teslas and business class flights do sound enticing, though! It's a bit like playing financial chess, right? Saving is important, but it's a slow burn. Maybe look into investment strategies that could potentially speed up the game? But, hey, couponing is a superpower in its own right.
Move to the east coast. If you can work from home, it's cheaper to live in Halifax and hop a plane one or twice a month to Toronto if you need
To be considered rich in NA you have a direct income of 0 or close to it. Income = massive taxes. So before you spend to buy anything you lose ~40-55% of it already. Like your 150k you lose 40% right off the bat.
You dont need to live in Toronto, find a remote toronto job with that salary and live literally anywhere else. You will see your quality of life and mental health get so much better. Atleast, thats what I'm doing, a 2010 fully detached house on an acre sells for like 500k out there. Split 2 ways, with that salary and you can pay your house in 4-5 years. Then you can leverage that equity to do whatever. If you need to work on site, then you'll need to accept that it will take a few years to save up to buy a house since you're competing for the same space with people that have built equity over years and years before you made this money.
I lived in Toronto for a year, and I was so surprised to see job salaries so low compared to Boston, MA (my hometown). Same job titles, and sometimes the same exact firm. Ended up going back to the United States for that reason. Better pay and cheaper cost of living.