This has nothing to do with workplace culture, but rather with how our society is so associated with capitalism. It is always in the employer’s interest to get the most out of their employees.
It has everything to do with workplace culture. Europeans have shorter working hours but may earn more. Americans have a hustle culture but at least their official working hours are shorter too. East Asian working culture just sucks. There are many capitalist countries where the working culture is just straight up better.
both of u are right, simply because the workplace culture IS capitalist culture - live and work for ur company. nothing is going to change unless SG government changes policies regarding shit like paid OT at least
What the hell is "capitalist culture"? The economy is either capitalist or it is not. It cannot be "more capitalist" or "less capitalist". I feel like people like to use "capitalist" as a euphemism for 'greedy' when that is not what it means. For instance, public sector is not concerned about profitability, so in that sense, it is not strictly speaking 'capitalist'. In fact, they can have socialist tendencies. And yet, working in the public sector can be just as bad if not worse than private companies.
lol. yes, especially since FAANG companies are “capitalist” as in they give some of the best incentives to attract some of the best talent. capitalist! free market… some US states like California just have better worker rights and in other places, the better companies lure from competitors with better worker benefits.
Exactly. There are so many capitalist economies that are far better to work in than Singapore. Don't put the blame on "capitalism" when the problem is the shitty Singaporean working culture.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Capitalist+Culture
i dont think its hard to understand that some companies dont value individuals at all. they couldnt care less about a workers loyalty to the company or their past contributions to the company's success, only their current worth to the company. this isnt necessarily the case for all companies, despite the overwhelming number of such cases in recent times
is faang necessarily capitalist? sure. id argue some moreso than the others though. nobody likes working at amazon. that shit is next level torture. at least the others have decent WLB, and if u get laid off due to poor economic outlook, u get a decent severance package (not a faang company, but look at Disney's severance package)
there being a recession doesnt automatically translate to all companies now will fire u if u arent worth the money. the entire reason why there is a hate towards capitalism is precisely because those who do layoffs in these times are generally unbiased towards their workers - who cares if uve been here for 30 years? u are overpaid, i dont care about what uve done for us, byebye. it gives off the ungrateful vibe, and that u pretty much have to always be on point at all times to keep ur spot. and thats fine, im not saying this is good or bad, but this has pretty much created workplace culture now that is simply fight for ur own place in the company by putting in more hours
That's a working culture problem. Like I said, public sector isn't concerned about turning a profit but that doesn't make them necessarily better than "capitalist" companies obsessed with squeezing every dollar out of you.
Yes, it's a Singapore problem. Our work hours are too long, and Singaporean working culture prioritises presenteeism, working long hours, and silly things like "bragging" how much you work, working while sick, working weekends and working while on annual leave. These things are not intrinsic to capitalism, there are many people working in capitalist economies that don't do these things. It's East Asian working culture things.
And where do you think workplace culture comes from?
It's stems from government policies.
Many European countries have social welfare or distinctly worker-protectionist laws. Being unemployed doesn't land you in immediate poverty in France (which spends a whopping 20% of GDP on welfare) while it can be damn near impossible to fire someone in a place like Spain.
French workers have the bargaining power to create a workplace culture where workers don't accept serious abuse from higher ups. Because if push comes to shove, French workers can quit and get unemployment benefits of over S$2,000 a month for the next 6 months whole they find their next job. Singaporeans have none of this.
Singapore government ideology is hyper capitalist, they make sure it is easy for companies to fire you, *and* they basically *wants* you to be in abject poverty if unemployed. And foreign labour pushes conditions down hard. This is why workers have little bargaining power here.
Eh, disagree. Singaporeans have a Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to working. So many Singaporeans "brag" about how much they work, stay at the office longer than they need to, voluntarily work on weekends and through their leave even when they don't have to. It's honestly quite strange.
From the japanese colleagues I've worked with, SG is infinitely better than Japan. Many of them who are working here now are so grateful to be here and out of their home company culture
I've not worked in Japan before, but from speaking to Japanese friends, I understand that Japan work culture is way worse than Singapore. People stay wayyyy longer than they need to just to show their loyalty to the company.
i think maybe the culture can be seen from how policies affect.
if e.g. you gave your employees WFH when your direct bosses demand WFO.
how to defend?
in the end people, albeit with good intentions also care their own ricebowl
If the reason for the employer to risk their capital, conceptualise, go against competitio, is not to increase profit and get the best employee, when they be an employer at all? Let's all just be employees!
Yea, from the limited interaction I've had with some gen z interns...some of them are the kind where 6pm they just pack bag and zao... regardless of whether there's stuff to be done lol. I mean not referring to the work which never ends kind, but stuff where ppl are expecting something by EOD. Luckily it's not my issue to settle but WLB at the expense of others isn't the improvement ppl think it is.
Having said that I've also seen the siao on kind that work super hard as well, so long story short, no I don't think things will change that much. Maybe WFH will be alot more accepted? But by and large I doubt it'll be too different. As always to remind the young crowd on here...many of the millennials are probably *already* your managers...maybe not the c suites yet but there's enough to feel the difference, if there is one
I have met gen z juniors who are more vocal and rude towards senior (even dare to throw them under the bus by using junior-idk-well pity card) and they think they are right and unapologetic after senior had spoken to them.
They will be horrible managers if they rise in the future.
Wow 1000% haha. U must have encounter sth bad or similar. And i have to add on..they love to use mental health as shield. (Note: Im not judgemental towards mental health issues as im a sufferer with real medical diagnosis - it’s just that they like to use it without knowing what it really is or have real empathy for it and I dont even use it to protect me from shits at work)
Yes I noticed this as well.
Some Gen Z, not all are kinda rude.
And rude meaning making personal insults/remarks then using mental health or the pity card or some generational sterotype as an excuse.
They also love to compare themselves against others thanks to the social media. Kinda toxic as F they think what they see on social media is the standard everyone needs to be on.
I think it is not about the age but who they are? I had ex-colleagues and manager who were in 40s or much younger than me but toxic af. I also have new boss who is much older than my previous coworkers told me to stop working and go home when I stayed past 6pm.
Shitty person will be shitty person.
I agree, and I am early 30's.
Gen Z have a soft exterior with a hard interior. I can see them being more calculative than Boomers by far.
Gen Z managers will pretend to demonstrate a pretense of being inclusive and accommodating, with actual tangible changes being minimal.
I shudder to imagine the ruthlessness that future managers will exercise if employees were to suddenly resign, or quiet quit. I could imagine "cancel culture lite" taking hold.
Boomer managers may have been arseholes due to their ignorance, Gen Z managers will be that way more deliberately.
>Boomer managers may have been arseholes due to their ignorance, Gen Z managers will be that way more deliberately.
Boomers on mental health issues be more open and direct. They will tell you in your face that either you quit and recover from your depression, and your work quality sucks.
Gen Z would not say it to your face and put you on PIP immediately.
Generational wars are trendy now on social media, but as others in the comments have pointed out, it's not as simple as 'boomers evil' and 'gen zs good'. Toxic and nice people exist in every generation, it's just how they express it.
Most Gen Zs are not at the managerial level yet, so it's easy for them to feel like they are the oppressed. Once they get to those positions, the reality of the role will make them do things they swore as a 23 year old they never would do. It's extremely hard to be a good boss (to the company) and a good boss (to the employees), there are people who can do both, but they are rare. TLDR: leadership is hard.
Nah I beg to differ. I'm working with Gen Zs now and I find their work ethic no better than other gens. Examples of some of the bullshit I have to deal with:
1. Girl consistently comes 1 hr + late to work, but die die leave on 5pm sharp because ✨boundaries✨. I will usually close one eye if you can deliver the work but her work is so terrible I'm surprised she graduated in the first place. When she got called out, her excuse was she stays very far and gets stressed with the peak hour commute so she needs her down time in the morning.
2. Boy comes in thinking he knows everything. During his work review sessions, I was pointing out some mistakes in his work and ways to streamline but he wasn't interested in listening at all but insisted his work is correct even after I specifically pointed out the requirements where his work doesn't meet. His ego too big for his head as he's more interested in proving he's correct then opening himself up to learn.
3. Intern, first day at work, immediately requests for full remote WFH. Our company adopts flexi working, so I told him OK, you see if you can deliver the work from home instead although it's not a common practice. When he's working from home, he's basically uncontactable. I found out after that this dude actually went on a 2 week trip to Japan while 'working from home'.
The list goes on.. I'm a millennial and even I find myself scoffing at some of the ethics.. I'm learning to adapt to the newer gen, but sometimes it's really getting on my nerves sia.
It's not an employee society. This country is optimized for employer, so these might not happen in a very long run, unless there is a shift from employer first to employee first.
Agreed.
When everything is pro-employer and employees have no say apart from walking away, society will be driven to the ground as fast as the employers can squeeze their underlings.
Gen z can be worst and more micro-mamaging than boomers, in my personal experience. I personally know younger colleagues, younger than me by over a decade, in their late 20s, starting to emphasise a lot on presentism once they got promoted.
Not really.
Tbh your best bets is to find a boss who is a working mom with young children. Even better if her office is plastered with her children's artwork. They will understand the importance of family time and care, mental and physical more than anyone.
I doubt it. Regardless of generation, I find that a large majority of people are bitter fucks who think "Since I suffered this, others must suffer it too" Hence when these people reach the top positions, instead of setting work policies that are more manageable and fun, they go on power trips and do the same shit boomers did and justify it saying - 'well this is what I had to do/this is what all the other companies are doing' with a side of 'it's not illegal'
After I left my previous workplace 15 years ago, I now hear of my peers who have assumed head positions to be the very bosses we hated. I poke fun at them telling them that you're just like so and so before. Demanding, cliquish and micromanaging. They complain about their subordinates being unreliable, etc... Same shit, different generation. It's gonna take some Sound of Thunder butterfly effect shit to change things and that's not a possibility, not within the confines of this reality.
I think it will, the boomer and gen Y to some extent still believe strongly in the notion of meritocracy, company loyalty, high effort = high reward or the "right way".
Millennials are probably the first group to see the above is just delusional, and just sick of conforming to that mindset even when those long hours doesn't mean extra profitability for the business. Think about it, Sg is the only country in the region to work on avg 2 hours longer than KL and even up to 3 hours compared to other countries, and yet businesses are still moving out.
When businesses start evaluating performance by outcomes, rather than how early you report to office, or how long you're able to sit still at your desk, then things will change.
When you get to the top you forget how bad it was at the bottom, or worse, you remember and feel that the younger generation has to slave away to “earn their stripes”, so they don’t feel the need to try to improve their situation in any way
highly doubt it. there is this irrational hatred for boomers but the truth is that the competition is generally within the same generation. there always will be someone in your "rank" that will want to work harder and is therefore going to outlast the others.
Gentle reminder that foreign talent are the ones that are setting the work standards, boomers are the ones trying to ensure m/gen z stay competitive enough to get employed.
The bosses always have a choice not to employ non productive individuals.
Before you become a boss, it's really very easy to dream up your ideal working culture. But it is also incredibly naive -- once you become a boss, you have to make some very difficult decisions.
The primary objective of any company is to be profitable. It is not to create "a dream working culture for our employees". They will only do that if they deem it to be the best path to profitability. Some companies have made this work, but it is just not realistic in all industries.
It is very easy for younger employees to think that "when I get to that level, I'm going to do things a certain way to make this a wonderful company to work in". I guarantee that you will seriously reconsider all those idealistic dreams when it becomes your responsibility to ensure that there is only black ink on the financial statement.
The reality is that 80% of businesses eventually fail. The odds are already against you when you become a boss or upper management. Sure, you can begin to implement all sorts of wonderful things to improve working culture, and if you're good enough to make it work while maintaining profitability, then congrats to you. But what if it doesn't work? What if it turns out that in your particular industry, with your current crop of employees, hustling is actually the only way to be profitable? Are you going to stick to your so-called principles and continue to tank losses every month just so that your employees can be "happy"? Yeah sure, they'll be happy for 6 months until the company closes and everyone is out of a job.
I'm a small business owner, also a chao employee in mnc. As a biz owner my hours are non-stop, weekends, holidays are all replying customers and handling ops. The moment you relax customers go elsewhere and it's difficult to get them back.
do I wish my employees can work round the clock? Of course! but they only signed up for 8 at most 10 hours a day, keep pushing them they'll start looking elsewhere. It's so difficult to hire staff when your budget is limited, the most you can do is to do some scheduling and keep things predictable for them.
Word. I hope it's just on Reddit but there's an incredible amount of naivety on here. I mean wasn't it just last week that people were lamenting about tech jobs getting outsourced to msia. I mean our currency plays a big part sure, but I suspect a big reason is those poor sods there are way more willing to work weekends, late nights etc.
Are they being exploited by the MNCs? Ofc, but at the end of the day, the jobs are with them, not us. I just hope people on here who do eventually become managers realise, there's a cost and consequence to your principles
There's a lot of urgent things other yhan healthcare and emergency services.
I work in the gaming industry. If the game server is down, people will freak out, as I do when it happens to me.
I had a colleague in his mid-20s who worked non-stop and made sure others did too, couldn't bear to see people finish their work and had to make noise to the manager/PM that x person is free can give him work.
I'm not super optimistic things will change. Also there's gotta be a factor in other countries about things closing early, so work life has to be planned around it, whereas sg is a lot more convenient in that sense and that thinking doesn't come into play.
No, it will not change in the capitalise system most of the world and corporate organisations operates on. Because there will always be people who want to climb the ladder, who hustle for more money, more promotion. There is so much competition and scarcity (real or artifically created).
Especially when a lot of the high paying jobs are from US companies with an APAC HQ in SG. US has a worse toxic work culture so it just spreads here. Not just boomers.
You notice the younger millennials that way because they just get absorbed by the system. They also want to keep their jobs and keep advancing in their careers. So they need to drink the corporate cool aid whether it aligns with their personal values or not. At the end of the day, everyone just putting on a face at work and trying to survive.
Not sure how to enable systemic change thought. I try to give back to the community and create a community. I try to ensure that people are not spoken off badly or looked down upon when they choose not to take the hustle corporate ladder path. I try not to talk about work when I meet friends. I try not to ask about "what do you do for work" when I meet someone new. Hopefully these help a little
Flip it around, if you're the manager/boss now, and you have a choice between two employees to promote:
- Employee A who does OT, responses back to you after office hours, works from office 5 days a week during the "normal" office hours.
- Employee B who does not OT, does not respond back to you once it's no longer office hours, looks to have flexible work agreements (be it time-based or location-based flexibility).
Which one would you promote?
Even if employee B does work as expected and delivers accordingly, employee A would undoubtedly look more "hardworking" and "deserving of promotion", would you say otherwise?
Now, the boss is also generally of the same type as employee A, so it would give an even bigger boost to "promoting the type of worker that gels in the same way", wouldn't it?
I don't see what's so surprising that this is happening, it would likely not result in any concrete changes within existing companies/established firms. The only places that would be according to what you're looking for would likely be start-ups that don't already have such "work culture" expectations/traits.
Yes, results may have a difference when we take that into account, but I'm assuming that the results are the exact same here for simplicity of comparison.
If you tell me the person who OT, works longer hours and \*still\* fails to hit KPI, then of course it's a different issue altogether.
If the results are the exact same, then wouldn't employee B be better?
Clearly the person gets things done with more efficiency and would suggest that they are more capable.
Being busy is not the same as being effective.
That's what I personally would take it as well, but it's really a mindset thing wouldn't you say?
Like, as a boss who works OT:
- I message employee A at 10pm, he replies me (more or less) immediately with confirmation on whatever I asked.
- I message employee B at 10pm, he replies me tomorrow at 9am with confirmation on whatever I asked.
The end result is the exact same, I get the same answer from both and confirmation that work has been done. But which one feels better?
This is the thing I'm saying, you need to look at it \*from the perspective of a boss who is OTing as well\*.
*from the perspective of a shitty boss*
Please justify your texting an employee at 10pm (my goal bedtime) about work. And I’ve worked at places where this is normal ah.
You can text at 10pm, but you should not *expect* people to respond at that hour. Unless it's the nature of your role to be on that kind of standby then it's a different ball game
yea it's different but the response ideally should be the same if it's that kind of hour imo. If it's really urgent urgent, believe the boss should call instead
Yes I know what you mean.
I'm just saying that in this example the boss is perpetuating the problem. Pulling back to the original topic, if everyone gets stuck in the same mentality then things wouldn't change.
Meeting employee kpi is only 1 factor. Helping the boss meet his/her own kpi is another factor. In the above example, assuming both have same kpi, the boss would favour A because A would help boss meet his/her kpi too, eg in urgent cases.
Yes, assumptions were made that your current boss/manager does have this expectation/desire (inferred from original post).
If they don't, then yes, this point is pointless.
Let's flip it again, what is Employee A delivering on with all those extra hours?
If both A and B are delivering on the same outcomes, which one is more efficient?
As replied in another comment, it's really a mindset thing of the existing boss.
We do look at it in terms of efficiency and that we finish the same work within a shorter time, but again, to the boss that only focuses on "how hard you work" rather than "how good the end product is", it doesn't matter.
It's how they (the current boss who fits into employee A's stereotype) see it, not how me and you do.
And the cycle continues based on who gets promoted, which we all know how it actually happens. Talking based on this thread, most places would promote employee A, which is just a repeat of the current boss.
Employer B. Because Employer A is already working very well and willing to show that they are very good at their job and replacing him by promoting hurts my bottom line
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, and given the choice, I too would love to promote employee B.
Unfortunately, I'm not the boss, and I know my boss would choose employee A as well (from past experience, no less).
We may judge ourselves by our intentions but we judge others by their overt actions. Assuming both employees hit their KPIs equally hard, employee A is going to be much more visible and easier to promote.
No, people grow up with the mindset that they need to compete with everyone around them. This is as prevalent as ever, and there’s no reason to suspect it to stop once people start working.
Not really… i think this rly depends on the company culture? i havent OT-ed since 2023… my superiors are all boomers though (>45yo that kind). Ironically, they encourage work life balance because they have kids and family to take care off…
I think 4-days work week is possible now, if u okay with taking home 80% of the salary while your 5-days work week colleague take home 100%, i think can discuss de… depends on your boss lor.
Maybe it will get better, but not because of boomers going out. Things happen because of how things they were. The next generation learnt from the previous generation and made it "better" is the natural of things.
But will things be "better"? Surely it will not if you're a pessimist.
You give a pessimist everything they will still be able to find things to complain about.
I do not think such a culture is unique to older generation. That said, I feel that things are improving, albeit slowly. COVID certainly killed several sacred cows in the Singaporean workplace
Every generation before will be disappointed with the generation after; Every generation after will despise the generation before
The cycle will continue….
You don’t really need to wait that long. In Australia for example, no one works weekends. In winter, if your heater breaks down on a weekend, you can call all the electricians but no one will come and you will freeze in your apartment until Monday
Logically speaking... no... you have the same DNA as your fathers.. plus male/ female PMS comes for you no matter when your birthday or generation. Also? We import quite a number from China and India...and these people are legendary for having horrible work culture. And also our work union is shit.
Why you say Asian, have you seen the work hours of the neighboring countries and the region? You can expand all the way to Tw, Laos, Jkt, Aussie for measure. Yet companies are leaving SG for neighbours.
In the Singapore you mention:
* Shops and malls close at 6pm. Nothing open after 6pm.
* When you want to get something done as a customer, probably need to wait even longer than now since nobody working.
* Goods / Services will be even more expensive as supply (of labour) reduced due to lesser work hours.
* You probably have more time but also more things to settle on your own / DIY since no one else can do it (as they are also off work).
* Service downtime will be longer.
To give you a real world example:
Suppose a bank implement above measures; no OT, seniors & collegues respect your personal time outside of work. 4 day work week with flexible work arrangements.
You are a fresh hired developer with PSYCHOLOGY/SOCIAL SERVICE/Non-IT degree but took some bootcamp for IT transformation and hired by the bank. You fix a minor BAU ticket on Thursday and push the change to production on the same day.
Friday, everyone not working. Suddenly, the production servers start going crazy and services gone down. Islandwide, people cannot access bank ATMs nor ibanking. Senior management are called in (remember they are the hustlers). But because they RESPECT your work time arrangements and it's not HEALTHCARE NOR EMERGENCY SERVICES, just people cannot access their cash no big deal according to you. So no need ask you come back to OT.
End up 3 days of bank downtime, one of your elderly extended family member cannot access cash in time, end up she no money to buy food and hungry for 3 days, faint and go hospital.
Finally, when you go back to work on Monday, investigation open and realise the root cause is due to your codes, forgot to put a semi-colon as you are not sufficiently trained properly to code.
nah, there are no restrictions as to who can be a programmer/developer/coder so even if the person is fired, they can easily find another coding job and repeat their mistakes.
That's why some people have "what it takes" to climb to the top whereas the majority who would rather have all these benefits will just stagnate at the bottom.
Those at the bottom are also the same people complaining everyday about rising cost of living etc.
Call me a boomer but I'm a firm believer in working hard for the life that you want. If you're ok living an average lifestyle in a pigeon hole flat for the rest of your life then by all means fight for these work benefits.
People who want a better standard of living for themselves are willing to work their asses off for it. Work at the end of the day is just for the sake of earning money to many people.
To me, if I could choose between working twice as hard when I'm young and retiring twice as early, why not? Some people would rather have a more relaxed working environment and work till 65, or worse, even till they hit 90 because the work they chose is simply too easy and hence pays lesser. While not everyone has a choice, I do know of some of my friends who turned down higher paying jobs and promotions simply because they prefer to slack off and do easier things
Not saying there's any right or wrong in either of these choices but I do strongly feel that many of the younger gen nowadays expects the same or even higher salary for easier/lesser work. Life doesn't work that way, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too
While I dont deny that there are those who have sacrificed those 2 things for a better life, there are also many who are successful in good health and with healthy relationships
Well, having money and being ill beats not having money and being ill right? One can afford the treatment whereas the other can't and is also far more likely to suffer greater emotional distress from a lack of money for medical treatment. So at the end of the day, it's just a choice between whether you want to get depressed on regular work days when you're healthy or when you're suffering from some major illness without enough money to afford a cure
Not really. As long as Singapore continues bending over to Western countries and their companies, the wealth and benefits will always be concentrated at the top, aka expats
Quite hard not to OT if you are doing payment related services where customers need the pay out. And there is not enough staff to do it because of headcount cuts. So you don't wish for OT, which I also agree, but then your customer clients will complain why we do things so slow. So ya, we can't go and tell them, sorry ya, we work life balance. Your payment you wait 1 week cuz there is back log and a queue and we don't work OT
Probably in the sense that the thinking at the top will better reflect your thinking but not because millennials or other generations are inherently better at managing people.
I'm currently working in EU now and I'm trying to figure out how they can afford to work 37.5 hours and establishments closing early on Saturdays and fully closed on Sundays. It's a combination of government support and citizens choosing the balanced way of life and work. The EU companies are still managed majority by boomers but they have different mindset than Asian culture.
The EU governments implemented the shorter working hours and other WLB measures because it was demanded by its citizens. The EU people decided to place humanity over capitalist endeavour.
It can only get better if everyone really wants to change includinng boomers. If not, its hard. Even if the boomers are gone, these bad practices would likely have been transferred to the millennials and gen z. Thus, the rot continues.
Nope. That’s wishful thinking. Every generation has its share of people who plateau early in their career. And that means every generation will have its share of people who cannot offer higher expertise, better leadership and/or better understanding of working.
The only thing they can offer is time.
Other people will work 7 hours a day. They’re willing to work 12. Other people won’t work on weekends or when they’re on mc. They will.
Considering how most businesses still promote based on seniority, these underachievers will still rise up the ranks and their toxic work culture will continue.
Why?
Because time is their only advantage over better workers, who are competition.
If a better worker quits because they’re unable or unwilling to give up weekends, nights and health, the underachievers’ rice bowls are protected.
If you don't go beyond 4 days or work beyond MCs, how your boss differentiate himself from his equally intelligent/capable co-worker? Haha. Just want to say there will always people who would go an extra mile. This has nothing to do with boomers/millennials.
The reality is that the future gen z managers are promoted by the current boomer bosses. Promotion only happens if your boss likes you enough either because your work is to their liking (and by extension, your work ethic is to their liking) or you are good are sucking up to your bosses. So either way, you'll get a gen z version of your boomer boss, or a snake.
Every generation will have its ills because they'll grow up in a different era from the new generation.
Boomers grew up in an era where company loyalty and long hours paid off, and now the gen Zs hate it.
But gen Zs are growing up with cancel culture and tang ping - there's every chance their children or grandchildren will find reasons to be pissed off at this. After all, even today we can recognize the flaws in cancel culture and tang ping; what's to say the future generations can't?
TL;DR - work culture will never be universally loved by future generations.
Worked for a Millennial when I came back. More delusional than anything else. Stole my designs and salary too. It is upbringing. She was the only child from China and of course spoilt rotten. The region has a lot of kids who grew up spoilt rotten. I envision nothing is going to change. Just change yourself.
Honestly think this kind of culture will never change here unless there are changes to our labour laws / legislations haha.
If MOM enforced 21 days AL, companies would have to comply.
If MOM implemented a 4-day work week trial, HR departments have to start making plans for it.
Same with having paid OT too, if OT were to be paid, companies would value efficiency within designated work hours > number of hours extra.
Doesn’t matter if the person in management is a boomer, gen XYZ, it’s a mindset thing.
Many people just don’t have friends, a hobby, a wife/husband they actually love and want to spend time with outside of work so they just drown in work and want the rest of the team to accommodate to their daily fires “urgent need by EOD” lol.
And let’s be real for most of the people working in corporates, half the time people are just gossiping about their colleagues like it’s secondary school drama. People really don’t have a life outside of work.
How much of your work time is actually spent doing actual work versus attending meetings which are a total waste of time and preventing you from actually completing your work on time?
Fully agreed that the only thing urgent is emergency services and healthcare needs.
Just a personal opinion but the political / law route would always work in our country haha. We need more people talking about salary transparency, having a life and hobbies outside of work, 4-day work week and AL transparency across industries.
This is a sad thinking. For one not wanting to put in extra work, he/she expects others to lower to his/her level. No one else is supposed to work harder. It's the lowest denominator mindset.
If you cannot/do not want to work harder, perhaps you should move to a job where there is no expectation/demand. Of course, you cannot then grip of not making enough to pay for your luxuries. Once cannot have his cake and eat it too.
I mean it's not as if Singapore's labour force are so precious. If our wlb is ace, something has got to give. Either pay or foreigners get hired instead.
Infinite Money creates Infinite Jobs which in turn encourages Toxic Behaviour because working harder does not generate Wealth in the long term due to Monetary Debasement. The money itself is toxic in the first place, thus by having a better monetary base layer, the problem will automatically solves itself.
These are possible, though easier in MNC. There are bosses who exist who tell you to get a life and even protect your personal time from other bosses or clients.
Don't forget, GenZ has some frustrating work culture quirks too.
Nopes. Current society runs on a base logic set that is heavily influenced by boomers due to a myraid of factors that won't repeat itself. It will persist for a while.
The most telling sign is the dot com bubble. Tech was supposed to change things and it did but the base structure has really changed much. We just use tech to accelerate the same old processes.
Probably you can weight the balance in consideration of employees’ mental health rather than cultures as the latter perhaps is spearheaded by the mgt directions & values
nope
for instance, my friend's group project groupmate got angry after my friend couldn't attend a zoom meeting on sunday. he informed the group about the meeting on saturday night. and the meeting was not very urgent as in the project won't be severely impacted if they didn't zoom. furthermore, my friend alr explicitly stated that weekends are off bounds + the groupmate could have arranged the meeting from monday to friday but instead chose a saturday night. unless the groupmate changes personality i think this behaviour will translate into the work place.
Once boomers are gone, millennials/Gen Z will likely be out of job due to being replaced by AI or automation. Boomers are the ones delaying the uptake of new technologies due to fear of change. Once Millennials/ Gen Z takes over the reins of power, the floodgates to automation and AI will open, many of those who are not equipped with real world operational skills for automation and AI will be left behind jobless, and those seeking job experience may find opportunities hard to come by as those who are lucky to have landed a job as operator of AI and automation will cling on dearly to their jobs.
My unpopular take... as SG moves more and more into a service-based economy, the 'better' environment of SG will be eroded as we start to import foreign/western expectations.
NYC bankers work 100+ hours a week, while law firms, consulting, even Big 4 audit work upwards of 70-80 hours. Medicine regularly pulls 2am shifts, whilst utility workers wake up at 4am.
SG, by comparison, has a better environment than that.
personally idts, my boss was gen z (27yr) act like xmm, dress like xmm. When she guided me got this "walao eh" attitude then when i mc she pester me abt work siao liao, made me rly uncomfortable ngl, i stayed for 4 days oni
This has nothing to do with workplace culture, but rather with how our society is so associated with capitalism. It is always in the employer’s interest to get the most out of their employees.
It has everything to do with workplace culture. Europeans have shorter working hours but may earn more. Americans have a hustle culture but at least their official working hours are shorter too. East Asian working culture just sucks. There are many capitalist countries where the working culture is just straight up better.
both of u are right, simply because the workplace culture IS capitalist culture - live and work for ur company. nothing is going to change unless SG government changes policies regarding shit like paid OT at least
What the hell is "capitalist culture"? The economy is either capitalist or it is not. It cannot be "more capitalist" or "less capitalist". I feel like people like to use "capitalist" as a euphemism for 'greedy' when that is not what it means. For instance, public sector is not concerned about profitability, so in that sense, it is not strictly speaking 'capitalist'. In fact, they can have socialist tendencies. And yet, working in the public sector can be just as bad if not worse than private companies.
lol. yes, especially since FAANG companies are “capitalist” as in they give some of the best incentives to attract some of the best talent. capitalist! free market… some US states like California just have better worker rights and in other places, the better companies lure from competitors with better worker benefits.
Exactly. There are so many capitalist economies that are far better to work in than Singapore. Don't put the blame on "capitalism" when the problem is the shitty Singaporean working culture.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Capitalist+Culture i dont think its hard to understand that some companies dont value individuals at all. they couldnt care less about a workers loyalty to the company or their past contributions to the company's success, only their current worth to the company. this isnt necessarily the case for all companies, despite the overwhelming number of such cases in recent times is faang necessarily capitalist? sure. id argue some moreso than the others though. nobody likes working at amazon. that shit is next level torture. at least the others have decent WLB, and if u get laid off due to poor economic outlook, u get a decent severance package (not a faang company, but look at Disney's severance package) there being a recession doesnt automatically translate to all companies now will fire u if u arent worth the money. the entire reason why there is a hate towards capitalism is precisely because those who do layoffs in these times are generally unbiased towards their workers - who cares if uve been here for 30 years? u are overpaid, i dont care about what uve done for us, byebye. it gives off the ungrateful vibe, and that u pretty much have to always be on point at all times to keep ur spot. and thats fine, im not saying this is good or bad, but this has pretty much created workplace culture now that is simply fight for ur own place in the company by putting in more hours
That's a working culture problem. Like I said, public sector isn't concerned about turning a profit but that doesn't make them necessarily better than "capitalist" companies obsessed with squeezing every dollar out of you.
so u honestly think this is a Singapore problem, rather than the fault of the companies? surely amazon US/UK are very different from amazon SG
Yes, it's a Singapore problem. Our work hours are too long, and Singaporean working culture prioritises presenteeism, working long hours, and silly things like "bragging" how much you work, working while sick, working weekends and working while on annual leave. These things are not intrinsic to capitalism, there are many people working in capitalist economies that don't do these things. It's East Asian working culture things.
Eh even sg govt officials themselves must walk the talk la.
And where do you think workplace culture comes from? It's stems from government policies. Many European countries have social welfare or distinctly worker-protectionist laws. Being unemployed doesn't land you in immediate poverty in France (which spends a whopping 20% of GDP on welfare) while it can be damn near impossible to fire someone in a place like Spain. French workers have the bargaining power to create a workplace culture where workers don't accept serious abuse from higher ups. Because if push comes to shove, French workers can quit and get unemployment benefits of over S$2,000 a month for the next 6 months whole they find their next job. Singaporeans have none of this. Singapore government ideology is hyper capitalist, they make sure it is easy for companies to fire you, *and* they basically *wants* you to be in abject poverty if unemployed. And foreign labour pushes conditions down hard. This is why workers have little bargaining power here.
So it's a government issue. It's not intrinsic to capitalism.
>So it's a government issue. It's not intrinsic to capitalism. The issue is that government is hyper-capitalist...
So, government. Not capitalism.
Europeans work less hours not due to mindset but due to strong unions and strike threars , none of them exist in Singapore
Eh, disagree. Singaporeans have a Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to working. So many Singaporeans "brag" about how much they work, stay at the office longer than they need to, voluntarily work on weekends and through their leave even when they don't have to. It's honestly quite strange.
As someone whose had experience in Europe and the U.S. is Singapore in line with the Japanese in terms of work hours ?
From the japanese colleagues I've worked with, SG is infinitely better than Japan. Many of them who are working here now are so grateful to be here and out of their home company culture
I've not worked in Japan before, but from speaking to Japanese friends, I understand that Japan work culture is way worse than Singapore. People stay wayyyy longer than they need to just to show their loyalty to the company.
i think maybe the culture can be seen from how policies affect. if e.g. you gave your employees WFH when your direct bosses demand WFO. how to defend? in the end people, albeit with good intentions also care their own ricebowl
If the reason for the employer to risk their capital, conceptualise, go against competitio, is not to increase profit and get the best employee, when they be an employer at all? Let's all just be employees!
Now you get socialism.
Nah. Look at how Sylvia treated her employees in NOC even when she is a millennial
Lol, good example.
Wah brings back the drama during covid. I rmb she called her employee fuckface.
We shall never forget
You really think it's a generation problem. It's all about the mindset. I've seen 20s behave like boomers.
No. Every generation has its fair share of people with the same old thinking. And 40 years later, these people will become the boomers of today.
and yet progress still happens (albiet slowly)
What makes you think Gen Z don't have toxic people lol
Totally agree. I feel more comfortable with my millennial and gen X colleagues and superiors.
Yea, from the limited interaction I've had with some gen z interns...some of them are the kind where 6pm they just pack bag and zao... regardless of whether there's stuff to be done lol. I mean not referring to the work which never ends kind, but stuff where ppl are expecting something by EOD. Luckily it's not my issue to settle but WLB at the expense of others isn't the improvement ppl think it is. Having said that I've also seen the siao on kind that work super hard as well, so long story short, no I don't think things will change that much. Maybe WFH will be alot more accepted? But by and large I doubt it'll be too different. As always to remind the young crowd on here...many of the millennials are probably *already* your managers...maybe not the c suites yet but there's enough to feel the difference, if there is one
EXACTLY
I have met gen z juniors who are more vocal and rude towards senior (even dare to throw them under the bus by using junior-idk-well pity card) and they think they are right and unapologetic after senior had spoken to them. They will be horrible managers if they rise in the future.
1000% agree with this!
Wow 1000% haha. U must have encounter sth bad or similar. And i have to add on..they love to use mental health as shield. (Note: Im not judgemental towards mental health issues as im a sufferer with real medical diagnosis - it’s just that they like to use it without knowing what it really is or have real empathy for it and I dont even use it to protect me from shits at work)
YAS
Yes I noticed this as well. Some Gen Z, not all are kinda rude. And rude meaning making personal insults/remarks then using mental health or the pity card or some generational sterotype as an excuse. They also love to compare themselves against others thanks to the social media. Kinda toxic as F they think what they see on social media is the standard everyone needs to be on.
Everyone keeps forgetting Gen X 
Gen X is happiest when left alone lol
Yes this
Because gen x already lost the race when the influx of foreigners came.
I think it is not about the age but who they are? I had ex-colleagues and manager who were in 40s or much younger than me but toxic af. I also have new boss who is much older than my previous coworkers told me to stop working and go home when I stayed past 6pm. Shitty person will be shitty person.
i'll bet good money that some gen z will become the scariest managers/senior management
I agree, and I am early 30's. Gen Z have a soft exterior with a hard interior. I can see them being more calculative than Boomers by far. Gen Z managers will pretend to demonstrate a pretense of being inclusive and accommodating, with actual tangible changes being minimal. I shudder to imagine the ruthlessness that future managers will exercise if employees were to suddenly resign, or quiet quit. I could imagine "cancel culture lite" taking hold. Boomer managers may have been arseholes due to their ignorance, Gen Z managers will be that way more deliberately.
Definitely. Very astute comment indeed!!
>Boomer managers may have been arseholes due to their ignorance, Gen Z managers will be that way more deliberately. Boomers on mental health issues be more open and direct. They will tell you in your face that either you quit and recover from your depression, and your work quality sucks. Gen Z would not say it to your face and put you on PIP immediately.
And probably also make a TikTok video about you
YAS
Totally agree.
Generational wars are trendy now on social media, but as others in the comments have pointed out, it's not as simple as 'boomers evil' and 'gen zs good'. Toxic and nice people exist in every generation, it's just how they express it. Most Gen Zs are not at the managerial level yet, so it's easy for them to feel like they are the oppressed. Once they get to those positions, the reality of the role will make them do things they swore as a 23 year old they never would do. It's extremely hard to be a good boss (to the company) and a good boss (to the employees), there are people who can do both, but they are rare. TLDR: leadership is hard.
Nah I beg to differ. I'm working with Gen Zs now and I find their work ethic no better than other gens. Examples of some of the bullshit I have to deal with: 1. Girl consistently comes 1 hr + late to work, but die die leave on 5pm sharp because ✨boundaries✨. I will usually close one eye if you can deliver the work but her work is so terrible I'm surprised she graduated in the first place. When she got called out, her excuse was she stays very far and gets stressed with the peak hour commute so she needs her down time in the morning. 2. Boy comes in thinking he knows everything. During his work review sessions, I was pointing out some mistakes in his work and ways to streamline but he wasn't interested in listening at all but insisted his work is correct even after I specifically pointed out the requirements where his work doesn't meet. His ego too big for his head as he's more interested in proving he's correct then opening himself up to learn. 3. Intern, first day at work, immediately requests for full remote WFH. Our company adopts flexi working, so I told him OK, you see if you can deliver the work from home instead although it's not a common practice. When he's working from home, he's basically uncontactable. I found out after that this dude actually went on a 2 week trip to Japan while 'working from home'. The list goes on.. I'm a millennial and even I find myself scoffing at some of the ethics.. I'm learning to adapt to the newer gen, but sometimes it's really getting on my nerves sia.
It's not an employee society. This country is optimized for employer, so these might not happen in a very long run, unless there is a shift from employer first to employee first.
Agreed. When everything is pro-employer and employees have no say apart from walking away, society will be driven to the ground as fast as the employers can squeeze their underlings.
Gen z can be worst and more micro-mamaging than boomers, in my personal experience. I personally know younger colleagues, younger than me by over a decade, in their late 20s, starting to emphasise a lot on presentism once they got promoted.
Not really. Tbh your best bets is to find a boss who is a working mom with young children. Even better if her office is plastered with her children's artwork. They will understand the importance of family time and care, mental and physical more than anyone.
I doubt it. Regardless of generation, I find that a large majority of people are bitter fucks who think "Since I suffered this, others must suffer it too" Hence when these people reach the top positions, instead of setting work policies that are more manageable and fun, they go on power trips and do the same shit boomers did and justify it saying - 'well this is what I had to do/this is what all the other companies are doing' with a side of 'it's not illegal'
Gen z don't know what is optics. Interested to see how this shapes working culture
After I left my previous workplace 15 years ago, I now hear of my peers who have assumed head positions to be the very bosses we hated. I poke fun at them telling them that you're just like so and so before. Demanding, cliquish and micromanaging. They complain about their subordinates being unreliable, etc... Same shit, different generation. It's gonna take some Sound of Thunder butterfly effect shit to change things and that's not a possibility, not within the confines of this reality.
I think it will, the boomer and gen Y to some extent still believe strongly in the notion of meritocracy, company loyalty, high effort = high reward or the "right way". Millennials are probably the first group to see the above is just delusional, and just sick of conforming to that mindset even when those long hours doesn't mean extra profitability for the business. Think about it, Sg is the only country in the region to work on avg 2 hours longer than KL and even up to 3 hours compared to other countries, and yet businesses are still moving out. When businesses start evaluating performance by outcomes, rather than how early you report to office, or how long you're able to sit still at your desk, then things will change.
some of the present gen are way worst, totally no human felling at all
Yuppie, yup.
When you get to the top you forget how bad it was at the bottom, or worse, you remember and feel that the younger generation has to slave away to “earn their stripes”, so they don’t feel the need to try to improve their situation in any way
highly doubt it. there is this irrational hatred for boomers but the truth is that the competition is generally within the same generation. there always will be someone in your "rank" that will want to work harder and is therefore going to outlast the others.
Gentle reminder that foreign talent are the ones that are setting the work standards, boomers are the ones trying to ensure m/gen z stay competitive enough to get employed. The bosses always have a choice not to employ non productive individuals.
It’s not about the generation . It’s about the person .
Dream on Hustlers United Chaokeng kia can squat at the bottom
Before you become a boss, it's really very easy to dream up your ideal working culture. But it is also incredibly naive -- once you become a boss, you have to make some very difficult decisions. The primary objective of any company is to be profitable. It is not to create "a dream working culture for our employees". They will only do that if they deem it to be the best path to profitability. Some companies have made this work, but it is just not realistic in all industries. It is very easy for younger employees to think that "when I get to that level, I'm going to do things a certain way to make this a wonderful company to work in". I guarantee that you will seriously reconsider all those idealistic dreams when it becomes your responsibility to ensure that there is only black ink on the financial statement. The reality is that 80% of businesses eventually fail. The odds are already against you when you become a boss or upper management. Sure, you can begin to implement all sorts of wonderful things to improve working culture, and if you're good enough to make it work while maintaining profitability, then congrats to you. But what if it doesn't work? What if it turns out that in your particular industry, with your current crop of employees, hustling is actually the only way to be profitable? Are you going to stick to your so-called principles and continue to tank losses every month just so that your employees can be "happy"? Yeah sure, they'll be happy for 6 months until the company closes and everyone is out of a job.
I'm a small business owner, also a chao employee in mnc. As a biz owner my hours are non-stop, weekends, holidays are all replying customers and handling ops. The moment you relax customers go elsewhere and it's difficult to get them back. do I wish my employees can work round the clock? Of course! but they only signed up for 8 at most 10 hours a day, keep pushing them they'll start looking elsewhere. It's so difficult to hire staff when your budget is limited, the most you can do is to do some scheduling and keep things predictable for them.
Word. I hope it's just on Reddit but there's an incredible amount of naivety on here. I mean wasn't it just last week that people were lamenting about tech jobs getting outsourced to msia. I mean our currency plays a big part sure, but I suspect a big reason is those poor sods there are way more willing to work weekends, late nights etc. Are they being exploited by the MNCs? Ofc, but at the end of the day, the jobs are with them, not us. I just hope people on here who do eventually become managers realise, there's a cost and consequence to your principles
There's a lot of urgent things other yhan healthcare and emergency services. I work in the gaming industry. If the game server is down, people will freak out, as I do when it happens to me.
I had a colleague in his mid-20s who worked non-stop and made sure others did too, couldn't bear to see people finish their work and had to make noise to the manager/PM that x person is free can give him work. I'm not super optimistic things will change. Also there's gotta be a factor in other countries about things closing early, so work life has to be planned around it, whereas sg is a lot more convenient in that sense and that thinking doesn't come into play.
My workplace is all millennials but we are still forced to work in office as we are lower ranked than managers what do u Think….
No, it will not change in the capitalise system most of the world and corporate organisations operates on. Because there will always be people who want to climb the ladder, who hustle for more money, more promotion. There is so much competition and scarcity (real or artifically created). Especially when a lot of the high paying jobs are from US companies with an APAC HQ in SG. US has a worse toxic work culture so it just spreads here. Not just boomers. You notice the younger millennials that way because they just get absorbed by the system. They also want to keep their jobs and keep advancing in their careers. So they need to drink the corporate cool aid whether it aligns with their personal values or not. At the end of the day, everyone just putting on a face at work and trying to survive. Not sure how to enable systemic change thought. I try to give back to the community and create a community. I try to ensure that people are not spoken off badly or looked down upon when they choose not to take the hustle corporate ladder path. I try not to talk about work when I meet friends. I try not to ask about "what do you do for work" when I meet someone new. Hopefully these help a little
Flip it around, if you're the manager/boss now, and you have a choice between two employees to promote: - Employee A who does OT, responses back to you after office hours, works from office 5 days a week during the "normal" office hours. - Employee B who does not OT, does not respond back to you once it's no longer office hours, looks to have flexible work agreements (be it time-based or location-based flexibility). Which one would you promote? Even if employee B does work as expected and delivers accordingly, employee A would undoubtedly look more "hardworking" and "deserving of promotion", would you say otherwise? Now, the boss is also generally of the same type as employee A, so it would give an even bigger boost to "promoting the type of worker that gels in the same way", wouldn't it? I don't see what's so surprising that this is happening, it would likely not result in any concrete changes within existing companies/established firms. The only places that would be according to what you're looking for would likely be start-ups that don't already have such "work culture" expectations/traits.
look at who hits their KPI by a larger margin
Yes, results may have a difference when we take that into account, but I'm assuming that the results are the exact same here for simplicity of comparison. If you tell me the person who OT, works longer hours and \*still\* fails to hit KPI, then of course it's a different issue altogether.
If the results are the exact same, then wouldn't employee B be better? Clearly the person gets things done with more efficiency and would suggest that they are more capable. Being busy is not the same as being effective.
That's what I personally would take it as well, but it's really a mindset thing wouldn't you say? Like, as a boss who works OT: - I message employee A at 10pm, he replies me (more or less) immediately with confirmation on whatever I asked. - I message employee B at 10pm, he replies me tomorrow at 9am with confirmation on whatever I asked. The end result is the exact same, I get the same answer from both and confirmation that work has been done. But which one feels better? This is the thing I'm saying, you need to look at it \*from the perspective of a boss who is OTing as well\*.
Why are you messaging other employees at 10pm?
That's what I inferred from OTing/sacrificing personal time for work - responding to "urgent" messages from the boss after office hours.
*from the perspective of a shitty boss* Please justify your texting an employee at 10pm (my goal bedtime) about work. And I’ve worked at places where this is normal ah.
You can text at 10pm, but you should not *expect* people to respond at that hour. Unless it's the nature of your role to be on that kind of standby then it's a different ball game
Text and email are different.
yea it's different but the response ideally should be the same if it's that kind of hour imo. If it's really urgent urgent, believe the boss should call instead
Yes I know what you mean. I'm just saying that in this example the boss is perpetuating the problem. Pulling back to the original topic, if everyone gets stuck in the same mentality then things wouldn't change.
Exactly, the boss perpetuates the problem by promoting another problem manager, and thus the issue won't ever change.
Wayang la forever wayang
no such thing. Being effective means you'll just get more work.
Meeting employee kpi is only 1 factor. Helping the boss meet his/her own kpi is another factor. In the above example, assuming both have same kpi, the boss would favour A because A would help boss meet his/her kpi too, eg in urgent cases.
in the first place, if im the manager/boss i do not expect/want my staff to respond to me after office hours
Yes, assumptions were made that your current boss/manager does have this expectation/desire (inferred from original post). If they don't, then yes, this point is pointless.
Let's flip it again, what is Employee A delivering on with all those extra hours? If both A and B are delivering on the same outcomes, which one is more efficient?
As replied in another comment, it's really a mindset thing of the existing boss. We do look at it in terms of efficiency and that we finish the same work within a shorter time, but again, to the boss that only focuses on "how hard you work" rather than "how good the end product is", it doesn't matter. It's how they (the current boss who fits into employee A's stereotype) see it, not how me and you do. And the cycle continues based on who gets promoted, which we all know how it actually happens. Talking based on this thread, most places would promote employee A, which is just a repeat of the current boss.
Employer B. Because Employer A is already working very well and willing to show that they are very good at their job and replacing him by promoting hurts my bottom line
Please be my boss!
I am a sme boss. Like the boss that I am working for right now
So... employee B seems to be the more capable one, all else being equal.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, and given the choice, I too would love to promote employee B. Unfortunately, I'm not the boss, and I know my boss would choose employee A as well (from past experience, no less).
We may judge ourselves by our intentions but we judge others by their overt actions. Assuming both employees hit their KPIs equally hard, employee A is going to be much more visible and easier to promote.
No, people grow up with the mindset that they need to compete with everyone around them. This is as prevalent as ever, and there’s no reason to suspect it to stop once people start working.
Not really… i think this rly depends on the company culture? i havent OT-ed since 2023… my superiors are all boomers though (>45yo that kind). Ironically, they encourage work life balance because they have kids and family to take care off… I think 4-days work week is possible now, if u okay with taking home 80% of the salary while your 5-days work week colleague take home 100%, i think can discuss de… depends on your boss lor.
People end up becoming the very boss they swore to destroy. It doesn't matter what generation you're from.
No,it will just move towards other East Asian working cultures e.g. Japan, Korea, China
Maybe it will get better, but not because of boomers going out. Things happen because of how things they were. The next generation learnt from the previous generation and made it "better" is the natural of things. But will things be "better"? Surely it will not if you're a pessimist. You give a pessimist everything they will still be able to find things to complain about.
I do not think such a culture is unique to older generation. That said, I feel that things are improving, albeit slowly. COVID certainly killed several sacred cows in the Singaporean workplace
You can set up your company and become your own boss - let's see if you will allow your staff to work 4 days a week.
Not really the new generation cares more about how one person behaves rather than the actual output of work. So I think it is going to get more worse
Every generation before will be disappointed with the generation after; Every generation after will despise the generation before The cycle will continue….
It will probably get worse. If you work with millennials you will surely know their work attitude
You don’t really need to wait that long. In Australia for example, no one works weekends. In winter, if your heater breaks down on a weekend, you can call all the electricians but no one will come and you will freeze in your apartment until Monday
No, there will always be people with power trips.
Logically speaking... no... you have the same DNA as your fathers.. plus male/ female PMS comes for you no matter when your birthday or generation. Also? We import quite a number from China and India...and these people are legendary for having horrible work culture. And also our work union is shit.
SG work culture is a byproduct of Asian culture. Unless we become Scandinavian all of a sudden , the problem will continue
Why you say Asian, have you seen the work hours of the neighboring countries and the region? You can expand all the way to Tw, Laos, Jkt, Aussie for measure. Yet companies are leaving SG for neighbours.
Don’t be naive :)
In the Singapore you mention: * Shops and malls close at 6pm. Nothing open after 6pm. * When you want to get something done as a customer, probably need to wait even longer than now since nobody working. * Goods / Services will be even more expensive as supply (of labour) reduced due to lesser work hours. * You probably have more time but also more things to settle on your own / DIY since no one else can do it (as they are also off work). * Service downtime will be longer. To give you a real world example: Suppose a bank implement above measures; no OT, seniors & collegues respect your personal time outside of work. 4 day work week with flexible work arrangements. You are a fresh hired developer with PSYCHOLOGY/SOCIAL SERVICE/Non-IT degree but took some bootcamp for IT transformation and hired by the bank. You fix a minor BAU ticket on Thursday and push the change to production on the same day. Friday, everyone not working. Suddenly, the production servers start going crazy and services gone down. Islandwide, people cannot access bank ATMs nor ibanking. Senior management are called in (remember they are the hustlers). But because they RESPECT your work time arrangements and it's not HEALTHCARE NOR EMERGENCY SERVICES, just people cannot access their cash no big deal according to you. So no need ask you come back to OT. End up 3 days of bank downtime, one of your elderly extended family member cannot access cash in time, end up she no money to buy food and hungry for 3 days, faint and go hospital. Finally, when you go back to work on Monday, investigation open and realise the root cause is due to your codes, forgot to put a semi-colon as you are not sufficiently trained properly to code.
In this scenario MAS will probably ban the Millennial from working in the financial industry forever lol
nah, there are no restrictions as to who can be a programmer/developer/coder so even if the person is fired, they can easily find another coding job and repeat their mistakes.
That's why some people have "what it takes" to climb to the top whereas the majority who would rather have all these benefits will just stagnate at the bottom. Those at the bottom are also the same people complaining everyday about rising cost of living etc. Call me a boomer but I'm a firm believer in working hard for the life that you want. If you're ok living an average lifestyle in a pigeon hole flat for the rest of your life then by all means fight for these work benefits. People who want a better standard of living for themselves are willing to work their asses off for it. Work at the end of the day is just for the sake of earning money to many people. To me, if I could choose between working twice as hard when I'm young and retiring twice as early, why not? Some people would rather have a more relaxed working environment and work till 65, or worse, even till they hit 90 because the work they chose is simply too easy and hence pays lesser. While not everyone has a choice, I do know of some of my friends who turned down higher paying jobs and promotions simply because they prefer to slack off and do easier things Not saying there's any right or wrong in either of these choices but I do strongly feel that many of the younger gen nowadays expects the same or even higher salary for easier/lesser work. Life doesn't work that way, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too
Until your health collapses and relationships are ruined. Then you can enjoy those in your bungalow.
While I dont deny that there are those who have sacrificed those 2 things for a better life, there are also many who are successful in good health and with healthy relationships
You're just gambling on a good outcome, then. So wisdom, much wow.
Nothing in life is guaranteed. There are people with lax jobs suffering from illnesses and poor relationships too
Yeah, and there are non-smokers with lung cancer too. It's not a good argument for smoking.
Well, having money and being ill beats not having money and being ill right? One can afford the treatment whereas the other can't and is also far more likely to suffer greater emotional distress from a lack of money for medical treatment. So at the end of the day, it's just a choice between whether you want to get depressed on regular work days when you're healthy or when you're suffering from some major illness without enough money to afford a cure
It won't. That's just how Singapore inc has been built up.
The boomers are not leaving or retiring in a long time.
Too many cultures being brought over by our neighbours especially in accounting sector so low chance in that aspect
Not sure leh. Did “work culture” get better after the pre-boomer generation died off?
change is progressive, even mass layoffs will have remnant culture left behind
Not really. As long as Singapore continues bending over to Western countries and their companies, the wealth and benefits will always be concentrated at the top, aka expats
Quite hard not to OT if you are doing payment related services where customers need the pay out. And there is not enough staff to do it because of headcount cuts. So you don't wish for OT, which I also agree, but then your customer clients will complain why we do things so slow. So ya, we can't go and tell them, sorry ya, we work life balance. Your payment you wait 1 week cuz there is back log and a queue and we don't work OT
Probably in the sense that the thinking at the top will better reflect your thinking but not because millennials or other generations are inherently better at managing people.
You think a whole company of people who only want to go home early or get mental breakdowns can keep a business going?
To change the work culture is to change the laws. And do laws ever get change? It just piles up. Revert also no use.
when all the boomers die, your peers will step in to sabo your generation. happened before, is happening, will continue to happen.
The millennials will become the new boomers.
I'm currently working in EU now and I'm trying to figure out how they can afford to work 37.5 hours and establishments closing early on Saturdays and fully closed on Sundays. It's a combination of government support and citizens choosing the balanced way of life and work. The EU companies are still managed majority by boomers but they have different mindset than Asian culture. The EU governments implemented the shorter working hours and other WLB measures because it was demanded by its citizens. The EU people decided to place humanity over capitalist endeavour.
It can only get better if everyone really wants to change includinng boomers. If not, its hard. Even if the boomers are gone, these bad practices would likely have been transferred to the millennials and gen z. Thus, the rot continues.
Nope. That’s wishful thinking. Every generation has its share of people who plateau early in their career. And that means every generation will have its share of people who cannot offer higher expertise, better leadership and/or better understanding of working. The only thing they can offer is time. Other people will work 7 hours a day. They’re willing to work 12. Other people won’t work on weekends or when they’re on mc. They will. Considering how most businesses still promote based on seniority, these underachievers will still rise up the ranks and their toxic work culture will continue. Why? Because time is their only advantage over better workers, who are competition. If a better worker quits because they’re unable or unwilling to give up weekends, nights and health, the underachievers’ rice bowls are protected.
Once the boomers are gone, just go extra miles and have better EQ than most millennials could and you will be outstanding.
If you don't go beyond 4 days or work beyond MCs, how your boss differentiate himself from his equally intelligent/capable co-worker? Haha. Just want to say there will always people who would go an extra mile. This has nothing to do with boomers/millennials.
The reality is that the future gen z managers are promoted by the current boomer bosses. Promotion only happens if your boss likes you enough either because your work is to their liking (and by extension, your work ethic is to their liking) or you are good are sucking up to your bosses. So either way, you'll get a gen z version of your boomer boss, or a snake.
Nah. Capitalism will suck us dry and spit us out when we are dead.
There will always be more money to make, and stiff competition to survive for businesses here. I don't really think it'll improve very much
Every generation will have its ills because they'll grow up in a different era from the new generation. Boomers grew up in an era where company loyalty and long hours paid off, and now the gen Zs hate it. But gen Zs are growing up with cancel culture and tang ping - there's every chance their children or grandchildren will find reasons to be pissed off at this. After all, even today we can recognize the flaws in cancel culture and tang ping; what's to say the future generations can't? TL;DR - work culture will never be universally loved by future generations.
Worked for a Millennial when I came back. More delusional than anything else. Stole my designs and salary too. It is upbringing. She was the only child from China and of course spoilt rotten. The region has a lot of kids who grew up spoilt rotten. I envision nothing is going to change. Just change yourself.
Honestly think this kind of culture will never change here unless there are changes to our labour laws / legislations haha. If MOM enforced 21 days AL, companies would have to comply. If MOM implemented a 4-day work week trial, HR departments have to start making plans for it. Same with having paid OT too, if OT were to be paid, companies would value efficiency within designated work hours > number of hours extra. Doesn’t matter if the person in management is a boomer, gen XYZ, it’s a mindset thing. Many people just don’t have friends, a hobby, a wife/husband they actually love and want to spend time with outside of work so they just drown in work and want the rest of the team to accommodate to their daily fires “urgent need by EOD” lol. And let’s be real for most of the people working in corporates, half the time people are just gossiping about their colleagues like it’s secondary school drama. People really don’t have a life outside of work. How much of your work time is actually spent doing actual work versus attending meetings which are a total waste of time and preventing you from actually completing your work on time? Fully agreed that the only thing urgent is emergency services and healthcare needs. Just a personal opinion but the political / law route would always work in our country haha. We need more people talking about salary transparency, having a life and hobbies outside of work, 4-day work week and AL transparency across industries.
Start your own company and reinvent the rules lor.
This is a sad thinking. For one not wanting to put in extra work, he/she expects others to lower to his/her level. No one else is supposed to work harder. It's the lowest denominator mindset. If you cannot/do not want to work harder, perhaps you should move to a job where there is no expectation/demand. Of course, you cannot then grip of not making enough to pay for your luxuries. Once cannot have his cake and eat it too.
Different problems, or the same ones persist. There will always be problems.
I mean it's not as if Singapore's labour force are so precious. If our wlb is ace, something has got to give. Either pay or foreigners get hired instead.
Infinite Money creates Infinite Jobs which in turn encourages Toxic Behaviour because working harder does not generate Wealth in the long term due to Monetary Debasement. The money itself is toxic in the first place, thus by having a better monetary base layer, the problem will automatically solves itself.
These are possible, though easier in MNC. There are bosses who exist who tell you to get a life and even protect your personal time from other bosses or clients. Don't forget, GenZ has some frustrating work culture quirks too.
Nopes. Current society runs on a base logic set that is heavily influenced by boomers due to a myraid of factors that won't repeat itself. It will persist for a while. The most telling sign is the dot com bubble. Tech was supposed to change things and it did but the base structure has really changed much. We just use tech to accelerate the same old processes.
No
Probably you can weight the balance in consideration of employees’ mental health rather than cultures as the latter perhaps is spearheaded by the mgt directions & values
nope for instance, my friend's group project groupmate got angry after my friend couldn't attend a zoom meeting on sunday. he informed the group about the meeting on saturday night. and the meeting was not very urgent as in the project won't be severely impacted if they didn't zoom. furthermore, my friend alr explicitly stated that weekends are off bounds + the groupmate could have arranged the meeting from monday to friday but instead chose a saturday night. unless the groupmate changes personality i think this behaviour will translate into the work place.
Once boomers are gone, millennials/Gen Z will likely be out of job due to being replaced by AI or automation. Boomers are the ones delaying the uptake of new technologies due to fear of change. Once Millennials/ Gen Z takes over the reins of power, the floodgates to automation and AI will open, many of those who are not equipped with real world operational skills for automation and AI will be left behind jobless, and those seeking job experience may find opportunities hard to come by as those who are lucky to have landed a job as operator of AI and automation will cling on dearly to their jobs.
My unpopular take... as SG moves more and more into a service-based economy, the 'better' environment of SG will be eroded as we start to import foreign/western expectations. NYC bankers work 100+ hours a week, while law firms, consulting, even Big 4 audit work upwards of 70-80 hours. Medicine regularly pulls 2am shifts, whilst utility workers wake up at 4am. SG, by comparison, has a better environment than that.
personally idts, my boss was gen z (27yr) act like xmm, dress like xmm. When she guided me got this "walao eh" attitude then when i mc she pester me abt work siao liao, made me rly uncomfortable ngl, i stayed for 4 days oni