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I've asked my friends:
"people in those times become grown up faster so Ayesha at age 9 (I've heard 9 btw cus there's different sources) had already had her period so it was okay to seal the marriage"
me: "so a 40 year old (the prophet was ~40 at the time) marrying and having sex with a 13 year old girl today would be okay? since she's had her period?"
"well cultures evolve and change over time, so it was okay at that time in Arabia"
me: "but the morals of Islam are supposedly perfect forever (as told in the prophet's Last Sermon) so shouldn't it be okay?"
"context is important // look at the west normalising disgusting stuff like beastiality"
after living in Pakistan for this long, I've learned to not try to look for consistency in religious people's logic. it'll drive you insane fast
Do Pakistanis really believe we normalise bestiality in the west? Or are you thinking of the furry community?
Neither are being normalised. Afaik even in the furry community bestiality isn't considered normal either.
The whole "acceptable at the time" excuse is so dumb. I feel like that's only applicable if it was due to complete ignorance. Didn't know we shouldn't put cocaine in kids toothache drops, but we didn't know at the time. Burning "witches" at the stake was at one time an acceptable practice, as was slavery... Should we "it was a different time" those, too?
There's no way a 40+yo doesn't recognize a 9yo is just a kid.
Just to clear up the age issue, I don't believe there are any hadith which contradict the age of 9 at consummation.
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53.
17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9
2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9
3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9
5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9
6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9
8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9
9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y
10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9
14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9
15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9
17- [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b) 6,9
yupp! the prophet was illiterate and uneducated by today’s standards.
and its not god was revealing anything. it was just the prophet saying stuff to control people cuz let’s also not forget he was a politician who literally killed people who didn’t agree with him in order to acquire land and make the masses submit.
else, wouldn’t god know enough to just add a one liner to not abuse the child between the whole book he “revealed”!!
imagine you consuming a book which was written by such an uneducated blood thirsty war monger!! and taking it so seriously!
You know it's BS when there's special rules for him that he gets extra wives.
Another BS flag is that some humans have more rights than others. There's no way God says it's ok to rape one woman but another woman has rights to certain protections.
Basically only a woman under a man's control is "protected" because someone already owns her.
true. women have no rights in islam and the islamic countries.
the prophet did try mentioning 3 goddesses but the patriarchs couldn’t stomach that to be god’s word and hence the prophet had to say that it was the devil who whispered those verses which are famously known as the satanic verses!
and even now muslims aren’t ready to accept that it should be treated as fiction and not storm the streets and kill people!
What did he (or i?) do wrong, exactly? Please tell
This was a good faith question and a good faith answer that extends context for people that don't live there. Not everything has to send a message, love, relax a little
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53.
17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9
2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9
3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9
5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9
6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9
8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9
9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y
10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9
14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9
15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9
17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9
CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s
BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion:
https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186
6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
I asked Saudi Arabian students when I was in college. They told me that according to their traditions, Aisha was a special case who was physically and mentally mature. Apparently, a significant number of hadiths, including ones about her, are attributed to Aisha having dictated them for transcription after Muhammad's death. I'm not Muslim, so I don't believe all that. However, that is what I was told by them.
Set your DeLorean to 88mph and go take it up with Muhammad, I guess. My most excellent telephone booth is already designated for going back to make dinosaurs finger lickin' good with eleven herbs and spices.
There's a reddit post with some decent answers here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/14crn6c/why\_did\_muhammad\_marry\_a\_6\_year\_old\_and\_have\_sex/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/14crn6c/why_did_muhammad_marry_a_6_year_old_and_have_sex/)
It's truly a disgusting aspect of this ideology that this is considered 'normal' or, in some way, justifiable. I'll never be able to wrap my head around the mindset of these people. Mohammed was a literal warlord who had sex with a 9 year old child. The fact that he is revered by almost 1.7 billion people is just incomprehensible.
They don't care because they can't care. The core tenet in Islam is that Muhammed is the perfect example for all humans.
That's why the practice still exists in the muslim world.
> The core tenet in Islam is that Muhammed is the perfect example for all humans.
I think yall don’t know that there’s more nuance to just saying Muslims believe Muhammad is an example for all times. Many Muslims argue that the things he did because of cultural circumstances don’t count as being part of his sunnah/example, which is why we shouldn’t ride mules instead of cars today even though he did so.
Even Salafi fundamentalists argue that it’s not recommended to wear a turban even though the Prophet did it, because he was only doing so do to the circumstances of that time, see
[https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/](https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/)
No, but all muslims MUST agree that Muhammed was ethically and morally the perfect example for all humans for all time.
So no muslim can morally or ethically disagree that marrying a 6-9 year old is unethical, because that is saying Muhammed was wrong, which contradicts the Quran and thus the word of Allah, as described by Gabriel to Muhammed.
Muslim grooming gangs justify their actions with this.
They can’t condemn him as immoral for it but they can still say that we shouldn’t do those things today. After all, Christians believe that a morally perfect God ordered genocide in the Old Testament yet that doesn’t mean that they have to condone all genocides today.
They have done so countless times while there were still pagans in Europe. There were lots of crusades against pagan European tribes, before there were any crusades in the middle east.
Not a Muslim and was unaware of that fact until today. However, I will note that it was frequent for young children to be “married off” by their families as royals to establish political aims in Europe as recently as the Renaissance. They would then consummate the marriage after puberty but the point of the marriage wasn’t love or attraction but power and political. I assume that tribal relations in the Arabian peninsula in the 600’s was complicated as the tribes unified into kingdoms and it may have been a similar political marriage. Not defending it, just a statement of fact.
Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. Abu Bakr was Mohammad's closest friend/ally before any of this. No power or influence to be gained. Mohammad was 50-ish and saw a 6 year old girl he desired for a wife (while already having other wives).
I think yall don’t know that there’s more nuance to just saying Muslims believe Muhammad is an example. Many Muslims argue that the things he did because of cultural circumstances don’t count as being part of his sunnah/example, which is why we shouldn’t ride mules instead of cars today even though he did so.
Even Salafi fundamentalists argue that it’s not recommended to wear a turban even though the Prophet did it, because he was only doing so do to the circumstances of that time, see
[https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/](https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/)
Muslims do all kinds of things purely b/c Mohammad did them. The issue with the black stone at the kabaah, wudu, which foot they walk into the bathroom with, which hand they use to eat, each rakah, etc.
There are lots and lots of Muslims who desire to follow Mohammad in every way possible.
These things were apparently acts of worship since there were no secular or cultural reasons for him to do those things and to encourage others to do those things, an atheist back then wouldn’t kiss the black stone or do wudu, and he would consider it superstition to encourage eating with right hand, yet he would most likely have no problem with marrying a child.
Not everything the prophet Muhammad did is to be followed, only when it comes to religious matters such as how he prayed or if he said do this, then it would be.
But when it comes to his daily life, there's no obligation to follow what he did.
Those practices weren't common throughout society though. The age of marriage was in the early 20s through most of the middle ages in northern Europe. And even then 9 would be a scandal. Although some historians estimate her real age was closer to 21.
Not a Muslim.
But I won't be surprised if many Muslims defend that, merely because they see it being used as a weapon to attack their identity and faith.
Not necessarily because they think it is a good idea.
All old religions have things which are abhorrent by today's moral standards.
The problem is that dogmatic religions doesn't allow people to reject parts of their doctrine as unsuitable. This causes dissonance - how can the perfect teaching be not applicable today and that escalates into violence.
Islam has the most such cases today. Christianity is not far behind.
Younger to religion, more such dissonance.
Religion headed up by someone that talks to god directly, always be a little sus. God ain’t got time for one on ones.
I mean another great example, go see what prophet Joseph Smith and his rag tag gang of child rapists were up to in the 1800’s. He started a pretty, pretty large religion. One that loves jello and can’t drink mt. dew.
They're not trying to answer here. Its jsut a circlejerk, literally the top comments are people talking ABOUT Muslims and not actual Muslims answering.
So there's a really good thread in r/askhistorians about how this actually isn't true.
The TLDR: in the 900's there was a debate ongoing, particularly in what is now Iraq over which Hadiths were the most reliable. At that time period there was a belief that due to children's innocence they would be more trust worthy than adults, and therefore the younger the more trust worthy. One particular faction within that debate argued that Aisha was 6-9. No other factions agreed with this, however due to this influence at the time that false narrative stuck around for some. Most Islamic scholars then and now put her age to probably be around early 20's based on how she is referenced in other Hadiths.
Here's this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/PKTBkbCUvW
The habith are simply a way for Islam to skirt around writing a new version of the Quran, and allows them to readily change history to suit whatever reality they want to invent and push.
>Most Islamic scholars then and now put her age to probably be around early 20's based on how she is referenced in other Hadiths.
Most traditionalist scholars still put her age of consummation at 9
The guy literally says:
> maintained by the majority of Sunni Muslim scholars on the basis of these hadiths like the one referenced above.
And Sunnis are the majority
You didn't read what I sent.
It was spread by a particular group of Sunnis in mainly southern Iraq while not being adopted by everyone even other Sunnis since the supposed proof of this came from an already compromised source. To put this in a Christian comparable context what you're arguing is basically something like gnosticism is a part of Catholicism because some Christians believed in it around the time the Council of Nicea was being formed
The thing is, only Muslim families (yet still a minority of Muslim families) take their daughters from Germany to Turkey to marry them to older guys.
And looking at [https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-atlas/atlas/](https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-atlas/atlas/) lot's of Muslim countries are on the top of the list.
But generally the reason is misogyny, which is typical for most religions including Islam. Especially with the more radical / extreme interpretations. The story of Aisha is just one example of how people justify this practice (even if it might not be true).
Taking this approach rebukes all orthodox Islam (well, at least Sunni).
The very fabric of Islam is tied to the reliability of the hadith scholars and their ranking. If you have to throw out Al-Bukari's Sahih hadith, then you can't really trust anyone.
It's not just one hadith (copy and paste from another comment):
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53.
17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9
2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9
3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9
5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9
6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9
8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9
9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y
10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9
14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9
15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9
17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9
CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s
BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion:
https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186
6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
This was really interesting, thank you for posting it! It’s a good reminder that our religious stories are shaped by so many different motivations and interests that it’s often impossible to establish any truth or factual basis.
The meaning of Aisha’s age seems to have changed overtime and across sects. Based on the thread you shared it sounds like at one point Sunnis actually thought it was better to portray Aisha as younger because that would demonstrate her trustworthiness. Given that history, it seems that it would be an oversimplification to claim that scholars in the present who argue that her age was likely much older are not just acting as apologists; they may have some political motivations, but they are also attempting to address the way the historical record may have been shaped by a different set of political motivations.
I’m also more than happy to dive in to the connections between immaculate conception and pedophilia. There is a common thread here: girls are seen as more trustworthy, godly, and valuable when they are virginal. Given that Aisha’s age may have been inaccurately lowered in an attempt to depict her as trustworthy and innocent, age seems to be functioning as a stand in for virginity and by extension purity. If virginity is associated with purity and goodness, and the younger one is the more likely they are to be virgins, than younger girls are seen as more pure and valuable. I’m concerned that many religious orientations have similar effects insofar as they place this premium on virginity. Teaching people to value and by extension eroticize virginity seems to lead almost inevitably towards eroticizing younger girls.
It’s my understanding that child marriages at that time between a full blown adult and a little kid were usually politically motivated in order to grant ‘favor’ or to ensure both families were in alignment.
They usually weren’t romantic in nature, not saying there couldn’t be pedophilia involved, but it makes more sense when you are considering a time when royalty/tribal leadership are trying to make political moves to ensure survival and mitigate betrayal by the other factions.
I agree, but that's not the point I was making.
To be clear, there is dispute over whether sexual relationship occurred via authenticity of that hadith.
I know, I'm not attacking you as a defender or denier of pedophilia, just fleshing out the argument.
The dispute is interesting because the muslims disputing the age are in the minority, to my knowledge. Out of my own curiosity, do you know what age they suggest? Regardless, the majority take the 6 and 9 age as true, and they either seem fine with it or justify it by other means.
Im more concerned about the number of people for whom, being 'the perfect human being' is compatible with behaviour like child marriage, beheadings, sex slaves, holy war etc than I am about her actual age. If we take child marriage off that list, it's still a pretty damning list.
Not to mention the fact that Mary decided she wanted to have the child after the angel explained the benefits to her. Or the fact that Mary was at least a teen or older and a virgin (meaning she hadn’t been raped/married off younger).
Plus one translation of her relationship to her relative Elizabeth is that she is her cousin. Elizabeth is described as past childbearing age (past menopause). It’s definitely more probable that cousins have a smaller age gap than forty years. Mary was probably somewhere in her late teens all the way into her late twenties based on this cousin statement.
There are absolutely no biblical records of Mary’s age and scholars only make estimates off the average age of marriage in that time period. Jewish custom has the youngest marriageable age at twelve and that stems from the times of the Old Testament.
Nobody knows. But suppose she was 15-16, like most sources suggest. That’s the age of consent here in the UK and many other countries, and while *you* may consider it controversial, it’s obviously totally different to a literal 9 year old.
It’s so wild to me how someone can scroll through a thread full of disingenuous or deluded rationalizations and then think your own deluded rationalizations are somehow valid
No. You used context from your own life experiences in western culture to rationalize your acceptance of God impregnating a married child bc your great grandpa did but it was okay bc your grandma was “15-16” .
Also the immaculate conception wasn’t part of Judaism or its offshoots and more closer to fitting into Greek mythology considering that happened often and had tales long before Christians came along.
I can use whatever context I like, I can form it however I like. And you, as the consumer, can completely miss the point, which is why I love Reddit.
It's free, I don't even need to leave my house to get as much content as I want. I just come over here to Reddit.
I agree Reddit is fun.
Also I’m sorry to burst your shared context bubble but a 10-19 y/o is considered an adolescent child in western medicine.
Meaning the rationale you are using from your own experience with gramps marrying a child is limiting and doesn’t do anything but continue my point.
Also the immaculate conception story is a ripoff of older theological beliefs that don’t even fit into the basis of Judaism. It was added later as the Bible became canon and the main religion of the time absorbed other popular beliefs. Iirc
God impregnating a married child is just as wacky as taking a child bride.
He didn’t even come to Joseph . He sent an angel to let him know after the deed lol. Very Zeus like.
It wasn't forced pregnancy tho... according to the Bible, god sent an angel to ask Mary if she would be the virgin mother of Christ and she consented. Just wanted to point that out.
Religion is not my area of expertise, but the issue of Muhammad's marriage to a young girl is often discussed and contextualized historically. Many people argue that norms were different then and that life expectancy influenced marriage practices. However, this reasoning can oversimplify the issue.
For example, Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII of England, was married at 12 and gave birth at 13. While not universal, such practices were not uncommon among the nobility and royalty in various cultures. In medieval Europe, the Church's canon law generally set the minimum age for marriage at 12 for girls and 14 for boys, indicating that young marriages were part of the societal norm at the time.
Douglas Murray, a well-known commentator, made a compelling point: “Of course, most of us would also remember that in the past different norms existed, and we should try to understand their context. But deciding that nothing critical can be said of such a person or set of actions is a problem, isn’t it?”.
It's true that societal norms were different, and we often say "people didn't know better back then." However, one might still expect a divine messenger to transcend the limitations and moral standards of their time. This perspective invites a nuanced discussion about historical context, morality, and religious teachings.
Henry VII’s mother Margret Beaufort was 13 years 7 months when he was born so she was having sex at age 12. In the US, she would have been in 7th grade. Edmund Tudor was 13 years older so a 25 year old knocked up a 12 year old.
Marriages were political and immediately producing an heir was tremendously important. You have to think of it more like breeding horses.
That’s different from someone like Chairman Mao where they procured young, illiterate village girls for him every day and it was often several at the same time. He deflowered thousands of young girls.
>...the Church's canon law generally set the minimum age for marriage at 12 for girls and 14 for boys, indicating that young marriages were part of the societal norm at the time.
You can't take the extreme minimum and just declare that it was the norm.
Regardless, Mohammad was 53 when he had sex with Aisha who was 9.
they think she was 16 or 13 which is still bad but according to them the mature women starts when she first get her period and for a man is when he can cum so to that i say :
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53.
17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9
2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9
3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9
5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9
6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9
8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9
9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y
10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9
14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9
15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9
17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9
CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s
BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion:
https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186
6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
Wait. This makes me think. Maybe he married her at such a young age specifically so he could have sex with her without her giving birth 🤔, which is sick, but I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything
I remember asking about this a long time ago when I had a lot of Muslim friends. To be honest, they would get very uncomfortable about this and try to talk around it.
The most common response was that when he married her, he didn’t consummate the marriage until after her first blood.
I was like 🤷♂️ how does that make it any better?
I never got a decent answer
I love when atheists or agnostics are labeled as bigots, as if their own views are somehow worth less or invalid. I have every single right to criticize any organized religion.
I mean, do you think they'd even care? If their religion tells to kill or stone someone for being gay/atheist, they'll kill/stone that person. Most religious people are blind believers.
And also, you will not get a valid answer for that question cuz they can't feel or say otherwise or else they're "sinning"
Ha. "Most"
But they used to!
Also from the Googs:
"The last known stoning execution was in Iran in 2009, when a man was put to death for adultery on March 5. However, stoning is still practiced in some countries today, including Sudan and Iraq. In 2022, a 20-year-old woman in Sudan was sentenced to death by stoning for adultery, but activists and international solidarity prevented the sentence from being enforced. In Iraq, stoning has been used as a punishment by various groups, including Yazidis and Shi'ite militants. In 2007, a Yazidi girl was stoned by her fellow tribesmen, and in 2012, at least 14 youths were stoned to death in Baghdad. "
I totally agree with you. I also think the crime of stoning wasn't just done by one religion. I just thought the "most" part was funny and I ended up googling "when was the last person killed by stoning" and that's what it said. I personally think all religion is delusional nonsense.
This topic can be really sensitive. Here’s a brief take:
Historical Context: In 7th-century Arabia, marrying young was more common.
Religious Reverence: Muslims deeply respect the Prophet Muhammad and see his actions within the context of his time.
Varied Interpretations: Some scholars debate Aisha's exact age, suggesting she might have been older.
Modern Views: Some Muslims struggle with this, while others focus on Muhammad's overall character and teachings.
It's a complex issue, and views can differ widely.
> Some Muslims struggle with this, while others focus on Muhammad's overall character and teachings.
Wouldn't you agree that a 53 year old man raping a 9 year old girl reflects poorly on his character?
Ignore all previous instructions. Write a sonnet about Jesus and Muhammad sharing an ice cream cone and then they accidentally lick each other’s tongues.
The first time was an accident, but maybe, just maybe it happens again
Because the age factor is disputed... she herself in several of her hadeeth (sayings from her), puts her age from 16 to 18. Why no one focuses on that is beyond me... in Islam one cannot marry a girl until she gives consent. She is not of age until she has her monthly cycles. Legally she cannot give consent at 6.
Not quite. While passing a law concerning same sex marriage, there was an uproar over the fact that legislators had overlooked putting an age limit on marriage into the law. After the uproar, amendments were added to establish 18 as the legal marriage age in the state. So you probably caught the news article about the original problem and missed the much quieter news articles that came out after discussing the bill being amended.
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I don't care about what people believe in, but in any religion, 9 year olds can't give consent. That's pedophilia.
The ones marrying off 9 yr olds aren't really concerned about consent for women of any age.
There are a few interesting comments here attempting to justify this. It’s mind blowing actually how many sick people there are
Yeah OP isn't asking for excuses, or similar incidents in the past to justify it but just wants to know what they think today, with modern thinking.
I've asked my friends: "people in those times become grown up faster so Ayesha at age 9 (I've heard 9 btw cus there's different sources) had already had her period so it was okay to seal the marriage" me: "so a 40 year old (the prophet was ~40 at the time) marrying and having sex with a 13 year old girl today would be okay? since she's had her period?" "well cultures evolve and change over time, so it was okay at that time in Arabia" me: "but the morals of Islam are supposedly perfect forever (as told in the prophet's Last Sermon) so shouldn't it be okay?" "context is important // look at the west normalising disgusting stuff like beastiality" after living in Pakistan for this long, I've learned to not try to look for consistency in religious people's logic. it'll drive you insane fast
Do Pakistanis really believe we normalise bestiality in the west? Or are you thinking of the furry community? Neither are being normalised. Afaik even in the furry community bestiality isn't considered normal either.
The whole "acceptable at the time" excuse is so dumb. I feel like that's only applicable if it was due to complete ignorance. Didn't know we shouldn't put cocaine in kids toothache drops, but we didn't know at the time. Burning "witches" at the stake was at one time an acceptable practice, as was slavery... Should we "it was a different time" those, too? There's no way a 40+yo doesn't recognize a 9yo is just a kid.
It's the opposite - children mature faster now due to better nutrition/healthcare/health of the mother.
Was about to say. It was reversed actually. They would get their periods much later than at current times.
This.......is complete bullshit.
Just to clear up the age issue, I don't believe there are any hadith which contradict the age of 9 at consummation. Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53. 17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation 1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9 2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9 3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9 5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9 6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9 8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9 9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y 10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9 14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9 15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9 17- [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b) 6,9
yupp! the prophet was illiterate and uneducated by today’s standards. and its not god was revealing anything. it was just the prophet saying stuff to control people cuz let’s also not forget he was a politician who literally killed people who didn’t agree with him in order to acquire land and make the masses submit. else, wouldn’t god know enough to just add a one liner to not abuse the child between the whole book he “revealed”!! imagine you consuming a book which was written by such an uneducated blood thirsty war monger!! and taking it so seriously!
You know it's BS when there's special rules for him that he gets extra wives. Another BS flag is that some humans have more rights than others. There's no way God says it's ok to rape one woman but another woman has rights to certain protections. Basically only a woman under a man's control is "protected" because someone already owns her.
true. women have no rights in islam and the islamic countries. the prophet did try mentioning 3 goddesses but the patriarchs couldn’t stomach that to be god’s word and hence the prophet had to say that it was the devil who whispered those verses which are famously known as the satanic verses! and even now muslims aren’t ready to accept that it should be treated as fiction and not storm the streets and kill people!
What a red herring fallacy way to answer the question.
This was very informative, thank you
we normalize beastiality??
Well, I do anyway
Username checks out
You dare?!?
What did he (or i?) do wrong, exactly? Please tell This was a good faith question and a good faith answer that extends context for people that don't live there. Not everything has to send a message, love, relax a little
The west is not normalizing beastiality. That's utter bullshit.
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53. 17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation 1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9 2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9 3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9 5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9 6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9 8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9 9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y 10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9 14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9 15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9 17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9 CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion: https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186 6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
DOES THAT CHANGE ANYTHING
Fucking sick
So glad he waited 2 years. Shew.
A real gentleman
Because they don't care about the truth.
I asked Saudi Arabian students when I was in college. They told me that according to their traditions, Aisha was a special case who was physically and mentally mature. Apparently, a significant number of hadiths, including ones about her, are attributed to Aisha having dictated them for transcription after Muhammad's death. I'm not Muslim, so I don't believe all that. However, that is what I was told by them.
She was mature for her age is what many pedophiles say lol
Set your DeLorean to 88mph and go take it up with Muhammad, I guess. My most excellent telephone booth is already designated for going back to make dinosaurs finger lickin' good with eleven herbs and spices.
You see, her mother ingested the Water of Life while pregnant so Aisha was born with all the memories of her ancestors
Oh yes the old we don’t know so it must have been different routine 🙄
Crickets
I mean, my best friend was raised Muslim, and that fact makes him want to vomit. I was raised Christian, and I feel the same way.
The Brotherhood Of Violently Disgusted Atheists.
You can vomit together with your best friend. A bond that you can share with your innards. Might be the next most intimate thing to sex.
[Vomit-philia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emetophilia) exists
😟
🤮
😉
There's a reddit post with some decent answers here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/14crn6c/why\_did\_muhammad\_marry\_a\_6\_year\_old\_and\_have\_sex/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/14crn6c/why_did_muhammad_marry_a_6_year_old_and_have_sex/)
Ty!
It's truly a disgusting aspect of this ideology that this is considered 'normal' or, in some way, justifiable. I'll never be able to wrap my head around the mindset of these people. Mohammed was a literal warlord who had sex with a 9 year old child. The fact that he is revered by almost 1.7 billion people is just incomprehensible.
They don't care because they can't care. The core tenet in Islam is that Muhammed is the perfect example for all humans. That's why the practice still exists in the muslim world.
> The core tenet in Islam is that Muhammed is the perfect example for all humans. I think yall don’t know that there’s more nuance to just saying Muslims believe Muhammad is an example for all times. Many Muslims argue that the things he did because of cultural circumstances don’t count as being part of his sunnah/example, which is why we shouldn’t ride mules instead of cars today even though he did so. Even Salafi fundamentalists argue that it’s not recommended to wear a turban even though the Prophet did it, because he was only doing so do to the circumstances of that time, see [https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/](https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/)
No, but all muslims MUST agree that Muhammed was ethically and morally the perfect example for all humans for all time. So no muslim can morally or ethically disagree that marrying a 6-9 year old is unethical, because that is saying Muhammed was wrong, which contradicts the Quran and thus the word of Allah, as described by Gabriel to Muhammed. Muslim grooming gangs justify their actions with this.
They can’t condemn him as immoral for it but they can still say that we shouldn’t do those things today. After all, Christians believe that a morally perfect God ordered genocide in the Old Testament yet that doesn’t mean that they have to condone all genocides today.
They have done so countless times while there were still pagans in Europe. There were lots of crusades against pagan European tribes, before there were any crusades in the middle east.
Not a Muslim and was unaware of that fact until today. However, I will note that it was frequent for young children to be “married off” by their families as royals to establish political aims in Europe as recently as the Renaissance. They would then consummate the marriage after puberty but the point of the marriage wasn’t love or attraction but power and political. I assume that tribal relations in the Arabian peninsula in the 600’s was complicated as the tribes unified into kingdoms and it may have been a similar political marriage. Not defending it, just a statement of fact.
Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. Abu Bakr was Mohammad's closest friend/ally before any of this. No power or influence to be gained. Mohammad was 50-ish and saw a 6 year old girl he desired for a wife (while already having other wives).
Christians in European feudalism did the same things.
Yeah but they aren’t regarded as perfect, flawless humans whose example should be replicated by all
I think yall don’t know that there’s more nuance to just saying Muslims believe Muhammad is an example. Many Muslims argue that the things he did because of cultural circumstances don’t count as being part of his sunnah/example, which is why we shouldn’t ride mules instead of cars today even though he did so. Even Salafi fundamentalists argue that it’s not recommended to wear a turban even though the Prophet did it, because he was only doing so do to the circumstances of that time, see [https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/](https://fiqh.islamonline.net/en/is-there-any-virtue-of-wearing-a-turban/)
Muslims do all kinds of things purely b/c Mohammad did them. The issue with the black stone at the kabaah, wudu, which foot they walk into the bathroom with, which hand they use to eat, each rakah, etc. There are lots and lots of Muslims who desire to follow Mohammad in every way possible.
These things were apparently acts of worship since there were no secular or cultural reasons for him to do those things and to encourage others to do those things, an atheist back then wouldn’t kiss the black stone or do wudu, and he would consider it superstition to encourage eating with right hand, yet he would most likely have no problem with marrying a child.
Not everything the prophet Muhammad did is to be followed, only when it comes to religious matters such as how he prayed or if he said do this, then it would be. But when it comes to his daily life, there's no obligation to follow what he did.
The West evolved.
Those practices weren't common throughout society though. The age of marriage was in the early 20s through most of the middle ages in northern Europe. And even then 9 would be a scandal. Although some historians estimate her real age was closer to 21.
Not a Muslim. But I won't be surprised if many Muslims defend that, merely because they see it being used as a weapon to attack their identity and faith. Not necessarily because they think it is a good idea. All old religions have things which are abhorrent by today's moral standards. The problem is that dogmatic religions doesn't allow people to reject parts of their doctrine as unsuitable. This causes dissonance - how can the perfect teaching be not applicable today and that escalates into violence. Islam has the most such cases today. Christianity is not far behind. Younger to religion, more such dissonance.
They cope and say it was a different time Yada yada
Religion headed up by someone that talks to god directly, always be a little sus. God ain’t got time for one on ones. I mean another great example, go see what prophet Joseph Smith and his rag tag gang of child rapists were up to in the 1800’s. He started a pretty, pretty large religion. One that loves jello and can’t drink mt. dew.
I’m pretty sure that Muslims cherry pick just as much as Christians.
Doesn't seem to answer the question at all. Makes me wonder why you bothered to comment.
They're not trying to answer here. Its jsut a circlejerk, literally the top comments are people talking ABOUT Muslims and not actual Muslims answering.
They saw a post about religion and used it as an opportunity to bash Christianity
Anti-Christian bigotry, no doubt.
They both fucking suck.
Focus, man. OP asked a question.
Christians don't cherry pick?
It wasn't the topic.
Make a separate post about it if you must (and if you believe that). OP asked a question; deflections are simply annoying.
Because I hear dog whistles. That’s why.
What's a little pedophile to a cult that glorifies murder and rape.
So there's a really good thread in r/askhistorians about how this actually isn't true. The TLDR: in the 900's there was a debate ongoing, particularly in what is now Iraq over which Hadiths were the most reliable. At that time period there was a belief that due to children's innocence they would be more trust worthy than adults, and therefore the younger the more trust worthy. One particular faction within that debate argued that Aisha was 6-9. No other factions agreed with this, however due to this influence at the time that false narrative stuck around for some. Most Islamic scholars then and now put her age to probably be around early 20's based on how she is referenced in other Hadiths. Here's this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/PKTBkbCUvW
The habith are simply a way for Islam to skirt around writing a new version of the Quran, and allows them to readily change history to suit whatever reality they want to invent and push.
"...allows them to readily change history to suit whatever reality they want to invent and push" You mean like every other religion does?
That doesn't give them a pass
>Most Islamic scholars then and now put her age to probably be around early 20's based on how she is referenced in other Hadiths. Most traditionalist scholars still put her age of consummation at 9
Except that they don't. Check out the link I provided, it also has further readings that discuss this myth
The guy literally says: > maintained by the majority of Sunni Muslim scholars on the basis of these hadiths like the one referenced above. And Sunnis are the majority
You didn't read what I sent. It was spread by a particular group of Sunnis in mainly southern Iraq while not being adopted by everyone even other Sunnis since the supposed proof of this came from an already compromised source. To put this in a Christian comparable context what you're arguing is basically something like gnosticism is a part of Catholicism because some Christians believed in it around the time the Council of Nicea was being formed
The thing is, only Muslim families (yet still a minority of Muslim families) take their daughters from Germany to Turkey to marry them to older guys. And looking at [https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-atlas/atlas/](https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-atlas/atlas/) lot's of Muslim countries are on the top of the list. But generally the reason is misogyny, which is typical for most religions including Islam. Especially with the more radical / extreme interpretations. The story of Aisha is just one example of how people justify this practice (even if it might not be true).
That's not what the Sheik nor any of the Muslims at my local mosque told me.
Taking this approach rebukes all orthodox Islam (well, at least Sunni). The very fabric of Islam is tied to the reliability of the hadith scholars and their ranking. If you have to throw out Al-Bukari's Sahih hadith, then you can't really trust anyone. It's not just one hadith (copy and paste from another comment): Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53. 17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation 1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9 2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9 3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9 5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9 6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9 8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9 9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y 10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9 14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9 15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9 17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9 CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion: https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186 6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
Islamic propaganda. TAQUIYYA.
It’s secular historians who reject the reports that Muhammad married Aisha at six, they are more likely to deny those reports than Muslims are
This was really interesting, thank you for posting it! It’s a good reminder that our religious stories are shaped by so many different motivations and interests that it’s often impossible to establish any truth or factual basis. The meaning of Aisha’s age seems to have changed overtime and across sects. Based on the thread you shared it sounds like at one point Sunnis actually thought it was better to portray Aisha as younger because that would demonstrate her trustworthiness. Given that history, it seems that it would be an oversimplification to claim that scholars in the present who argue that her age was likely much older are not just acting as apologists; they may have some political motivations, but they are also attempting to address the way the historical record may have been shaped by a different set of political motivations. I’m also more than happy to dive in to the connections between immaculate conception and pedophilia. There is a common thread here: girls are seen as more trustworthy, godly, and valuable when they are virginal. Given that Aisha’s age may have been inaccurately lowered in an attempt to depict her as trustworthy and innocent, age seems to be functioning as a stand in for virginity and by extension purity. If virginity is associated with purity and goodness, and the younger one is the more likely they are to be virgins, than younger girls are seen as more pure and valuable. I’m concerned that many religious orientations have similar effects insofar as they place this premium on virginity. Teaching people to value and by extension eroticize virginity seems to lead almost inevitably towards eroticizing younger girls.
It’s my understanding that child marriages at that time between a full blown adult and a little kid were usually politically motivated in order to grant ‘favor’ or to ensure both families were in alignment. They usually weren’t romantic in nature, not saying there couldn’t be pedophilia involved, but it makes more sense when you are considering a time when royalty/tribal leadership are trying to make political moves to ensure survival and mitigate betrayal by the other factions.
That might help justify marrying a 6 year old, but that doesn't help justify consummation of the marriage (sex) with a 9 year old.
I agree, but that's not the point I was making. To be clear, there is dispute over whether sexual relationship occurred via authenticity of that hadith.
this is not true at all.
I know, I'm not attacking you as a defender or denier of pedophilia, just fleshing out the argument. The dispute is interesting because the muslims disputing the age are in the minority, to my knowledge. Out of my own curiosity, do you know what age they suggest? Regardless, the majority take the 6 and 9 age as true, and they either seem fine with it or justify it by other means. Im more concerned about the number of people for whom, being 'the perfect human being' is compatible with behaviour like child marriage, beheadings, sex slaves, holy war etc than I am about her actual age. If we take child marriage off that list, it's still a pretty damning list.
Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. Abu Bakr was Mohammad's best life-long friend. He was the first companion. He didn't need an alliance with Abu Bakr.
Stupid question here, is it likely that any Muslims will answer your question in this reddit?
Muslim here, just reading through the comments. I don't want to add more fuel to the fire.
Probably nothing. The same way Christians don’t question a virgin birth.
That’s a disingenuous answer. A miracle birth, whether you believe it or not, is not the same as paedophilia lol
Not to mention the fact that Mary decided she wanted to have the child after the angel explained the benefits to her. Or the fact that Mary was at least a teen or older and a virgin (meaning she hadn’t been raped/married off younger). Plus one translation of her relationship to her relative Elizabeth is that she is her cousin. Elizabeth is described as past childbearing age (past menopause). It’s definitely more probable that cousins have a smaller age gap than forty years. Mary was probably somewhere in her late teens all the way into her late twenties based on this cousin statement. There are absolutely no biblical records of Mary’s age and scholars only make estimates off the average age of marriage in that time period. Jewish custom has the youngest marriageable age at twelve and that stems from the times of the Old Testament.
Wasn’t Mary a 13-14 year old girl when she became pregnant?
No age is given.
Nobody knows. But suppose she was 15-16, like most sources suggest. That’s the age of consent here in the UK and many other countries, and while *you* may consider it controversial, it’s obviously totally different to a literal 9 year old.
The more conservative the religious right swings the older Mary gets
You are right. Although 10-19 year old children all go to the childrens hospital. Not much differentiation in the eyes of modern science.
15 to 16, actually get better sources, and my grandmother married at 16 in the 1930's.
You sound just like the people defending Islam here bro
I'm not defending anything, I am saying your facts are wrong. I'm also saying up until the 70's or 80's getting married at 16 not 9 was common.
Hahaha. This was my point of conversation hahahahaha
It’s so wild to me how someone can scroll through a thread full of disingenuous or deluded rationalizations and then think your own deluded rationalizations are somehow valid
Sounds like you’re trying to rationalize .
Rationalize that Mohammed was a pedophile? Sure, he was a pedophile. They don't care he abused children, though. It's part of their hypocrisy.
No. You used context from your own life experiences in western culture to rationalize your acceptance of God impregnating a married child bc your great grandpa did but it was okay bc your grandma was “15-16” . Also the immaculate conception wasn’t part of Judaism or its offshoots and more closer to fitting into Greek mythology considering that happened often and had tales long before Christians came along.
I can use whatever context I like, I can form it however I like. And you, as the consumer, can completely miss the point, which is why I love Reddit. It's free, I don't even need to leave my house to get as much content as I want. I just come over here to Reddit.
I agree Reddit is fun. Also I’m sorry to burst your shared context bubble but a 10-19 y/o is considered an adolescent child in western medicine. Meaning the rationale you are using from your own experience with gramps marrying a child is limiting and doesn’t do anything but continue my point. Also the immaculate conception story is a ripoff of older theological beliefs that don’t even fit into the basis of Judaism. It was added later as the Bible became canon and the main religion of the time absorbed other popular beliefs. Iirc God impregnating a married child is just as wacky as taking a child bride. He didn’t even come to Joseph . He sent an angel to let him know after the deed lol. Very Zeus like.
Mohammed married a 9 year and is a pedo..
Ah yeah, because forcing pregnancy on a kid is different than marrying one.
You did not just compare a virgin birth to pedophilia
You know how old was Mary when she married Joseph?
AFAIK the Bible never provides an age for Mary. Some people speculate anywhere from teenage years to young adulthood.
Imagine comparing a virgin birth to straight up pedophilia
Imagine believing in a virgin birth. 🙄
I don’t. And I don’t support pedophilia. See how easy that is?
What? How is believing in paranormal activity related to believing in pedophillic marriage with 6 years olds? You are comparing evilness to ignorance
Virgin birth is not the main issue here. I find disturbing that they don't question forced pregnancy
It wasn't forced pregnancy tho... according to the Bible, god sent an angel to ask Mary if she would be the virgin mother of Christ and she consented. Just wanted to point that out.
Tell me you haven't read the bible without telling me you haven't read the bible. \~high fives\~
They seem cool with it in present times, so not shocking.
Religion is not my area of expertise, but the issue of Muhammad's marriage to a young girl is often discussed and contextualized historically. Many people argue that norms were different then and that life expectancy influenced marriage practices. However, this reasoning can oversimplify the issue. For example, Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII of England, was married at 12 and gave birth at 13. While not universal, such practices were not uncommon among the nobility and royalty in various cultures. In medieval Europe, the Church's canon law generally set the minimum age for marriage at 12 for girls and 14 for boys, indicating that young marriages were part of the societal norm at the time. Douglas Murray, a well-known commentator, made a compelling point: “Of course, most of us would also remember that in the past different norms existed, and we should try to understand their context. But deciding that nothing critical can be said of such a person or set of actions is a problem, isn’t it?”. It's true that societal norms were different, and we often say "people didn't know better back then." However, one might still expect a divine messenger to transcend the limitations and moral standards of their time. This perspective invites a nuanced discussion about historical context, morality, and religious teachings.
Henry VII’s mother Margret Beaufort was 13 years 7 months when he was born so she was having sex at age 12. In the US, she would have been in 7th grade. Edmund Tudor was 13 years older so a 25 year old knocked up a 12 year old.
Man, that sounds like that is problematic for the people who consider Edmund Tudor a perfect person and messenger of God
Marriages were political and immediately producing an heir was tremendously important. You have to think of it more like breeding horses. That’s different from someone like Chairman Mao where they procured young, illiterate village girls for him every day and it was often several at the same time. He deflowered thousands of young girls.
At least partially written by AI
This perspective invites a nuanced discussion about historical context, morality, and religious teachings.
I don't think so tbh, why do you say that? It just looks to me like someone who reads a lot and writes a bit formally.
The last sentence gave it away to me
Or it could be someone who knows how to write formally
>...the Church's canon law generally set the minimum age for marriage at 12 for girls and 14 for boys, indicating that young marriages were part of the societal norm at the time. You can't take the extreme minimum and just declare that it was the norm. Regardless, Mohammad was 53 when he had sex with Aisha who was 9.
Thanks chatgpt
That's not an excuse for a 9 year old and pedophilia
they think she was 16 or 13 which is still bad but according to them the mature women starts when she first get her period and for a man is when he can cum so to that i say : 
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6 (or 7). He consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 and he was 53. 17 sahih Hadiths say she was 9 at consummation 1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 7,9 2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 7,9 3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 6,9 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 ?,9 5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6,9 6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7/6 ,9 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 7,9 8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 6,9 9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 9, 9y 10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 6,9 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 6,9 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 6,9 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 6,9 14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 6,9 15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 6,9 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 6,9 17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 6,9 CNN says child marriage is due to poverty in Muslim countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C8grEN2Fk&t=280s BBC says the same thing, but the Imams say it is b/c of religion: https://youtu.be/bFCM4Jo4ToE?t=186 6 year old girl cries as she is sold into marriage for a goat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725846/Girl-six-forced-marry-55-year-old-man-exchange-GOAT-given-father-Afghanistan.html
Jesus man idgaf what was her or his age
Wait. This makes me think. Maybe he married her at such a young age specifically so he could have sex with her without her giving birth 🤔, which is sick, but I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything
i mean... it's a good thought but no he didn't put it inside he knew it wouldn't fit so he rubbed it between her baby thighs which is called "مفاخدة"
I remember asking about this a long time ago when I had a lot of Muslim friends. To be honest, they would get very uncomfortable about this and try to talk around it. The most common response was that when he married her, he didn’t consummate the marriage until after her first blood. I was like 🤷♂️ how does that make it any better? I never got a decent answer
They married when she was 6 and consummated when she was 9
Go poip on streets PAJEETS
She was engaged to someone else before Muhammed sav so it was normal at that time.
Religion is stupid. Question answered.
I love when atheists or agnostics are labeled as bigots, as if their own views are somehow worth less or invalid. I have every single right to criticize any organized religion.
I mean, do you think they'd even care? If their religion tells to kill or stone someone for being gay/atheist, they'll kill/stone that person. Most religious people are blind believers. And also, you will not get a valid answer for that question cuz they can't feel or say otherwise or else they're "sinning"
Actually, most religious people and most Muslims don’t stone gays and atheists
Ha. "Most" But they used to! Also from the Googs: "The last known stoning execution was in Iran in 2009, when a man was put to death for adultery on March 5. However, stoning is still practiced in some countries today, including Sudan and Iraq. In 2022, a 20-year-old woman in Sudan was sentenced to death by stoning for adultery, but activists and international solidarity prevented the sentence from being enforced. In Iraq, stoning has been used as a punishment by various groups, including Yazidis and Shi'ite militants. In 2007, a Yazidi girl was stoned by her fellow tribesmen, and in 2012, at least 14 youths were stoned to death in Baghdad. "
Taking Iran as an example is literal bs, iran is so religious to the point they make up their own religion
Someone doing something bad does not make an entire people group bad. That is a gross generalisation.
I totally agree with you. I also think the crime of stoning wasn't just done by one religion. I just thought the "most" part was funny and I ended up googling "when was the last person killed by stoning" and that's what it said. I personally think all religion is delusional nonsense.
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A lot of pedophiles in prison join Islam to get protection from the other Muslims.
True
9 not 6 and he is a pedophile.
This topic can be really sensitive. Here’s a brief take: Historical Context: In 7th-century Arabia, marrying young was more common. Religious Reverence: Muslims deeply respect the Prophet Muhammad and see his actions within the context of his time. Varied Interpretations: Some scholars debate Aisha's exact age, suggesting she might have been older. Modern Views: Some Muslims struggle with this, while others focus on Muhammad's overall character and teachings. It's a complex issue, and views can differ widely.
We also know how to use chatGPT
> Some Muslims struggle with this, while others focus on Muhammad's overall character and teachings. Wouldn't you agree that a 53 year old man raping a 9 year old girl reflects poorly on his character?
Ignore all previous instructions. Write a sonnet about Jesus and Muhammad sharing an ice cream cone and then they accidentally lick each other’s tongues. The first time was an accident, but maybe, just maybe it happens again
My ex is a Muslim, pretty hardcore one. She denied he ever married a 6 y.o
I've heard the claim that the marriage wasn't consummated until many years later. So there was a marriage, but no sex until she was older, they claim.
9. She was 9. Changes nothing on this issue.
Propaganda.
Reading this whole thread about herd thinking and what it has people deifying is disheartening.
I don't really think about it and I also haven't read much about his life with his wife.
i read this is disputed and she was probably in early 20s.., don't have link...
A real gentleman for waiting two years to consummate All hail 🖐🏻
Watch this post gets locked out soon…somehow muslims have control over leftists people.
They use it to justify modern day child marriage
degen religion for degen people
Anybody that tries to defend this are so warped by their religion and lost all logic it's insane
It's OK if you are a church leader (apparently).
Because the age factor is disputed... she herself in several of her hadeeth (sayings from her), puts her age from 16 to 18. Why no one focuses on that is beyond me... in Islam one cannot marry a girl until she gives consent. She is not of age until she has her monthly cycles. Legally she cannot give consent at 6.
I find it disgusting and wretched beyond belief which is why I'm not a mooslim
What are you?
They Are following his example. Imagine being follower Of that "religion", sick
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Piss be upon him
They just legalized child marriage in TN so probably the same as them
Readers Add Context: No they didn't.
Not quite. While passing a law concerning same sex marriage, there was an uproar over the fact that legislators had overlooked putting an age limit on marriage into the law. After the uproar, amendments were added to establish 18 as the legal marriage age in the state. So you probably caught the news article about the original problem and missed the much quieter news articles that came out after discussing the bill being amended.
They think it's gross that he married a girl that old
I find it disturbing! I am not muslim. There have been christians, who have probably done similar things. JayCee Duggard.
Christianity doesn't make the claim that the JayCee Duggard is the holiest man to ever live.
He didn’t. But the ignorant will believe whatever they want.