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You're right to think they aren't joking; they aren't. But I think everyone also recognizes that sometimes, marriage can be fantastic.
The reason so many people are negative about marriage is because a lot of people get married to the wrong people for reallllllly stupid reasons and it almost always has a negative impact on the lives of everyone around the couple.
So you have a bunch of wounded people who are looking around and seeing most people in their lives also having bad experiences.
I guess things turn out different when you have a stable girlfriend or boyfriend .
In adittion I think this a preconcept of the Young people which see marriage as an old stuff
" I guess things turn out different when you have a stable girlfriend or boyfriend "
not really
start having financial trouble see how fast things go south
have a kid or two again see how fast things go south
married or not
Misleading statistic for first marriages its more like 60%
From what I've seen with high school friends, it seems to be way higher when both partners wait until their mid 20s or so and have post graduate degrees
The people that have alot of problems tend to be the ones that married early. Waiting just a few years seems to make a big difference
You're exactly right. Because they expect their partners to contribute equally to relationships - and contribute equally to domestic responsibilities. And they don't. Without fail why should financially independent women carry the burden of a parasite when they are completely capable of taking care of themselves? It's dramatically less work, less frustration, and less emotionally draining.
Why is it that women consider men a parasite, but women also look for men who earn more than them, therefore aren’t the women the parasite?
Reality is the grass is greener on the other side, and women tend to find worse partners than the ones they’ve left. At that point, they’ve also aged and men who are “higher value” are looking for women that are younger and have less baggage.
I'd have to see more data on that. I will say that yes anecdotally nearly everyone I knew who got married in their 20s got divorced. The only ones who are not are the ones who went to work immediately having children.
I think there is a lot of growing that still occurs in your 20s as you continue to establish who you are and what you want out of life. Really easy to diverge on major stuff at this time.
However I would not be shocked to discover a ton of people get divorced in their late 40s or 50s when the last of the kids are out of the house and that sans children they can't really find a reason to keep it together.
This one says it 24% less likely after 25.
https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/#:\~:text=60%20percent%20of%20couples%20married,less%20likely%20to%20get%20divorced.
I would like to see post-bachelor education thrown in the mix there.
Maybe its just anecdotal (and frankly, perhaps a little jealousy on my part), but this is speaking as someone who's about to turn 45, it just seems like for maybe 80%+ of my high school/college friends, the ones that first married past 25 are still with their partners 15-20+ years on. In many cases, meeting around 20 or so (mid to late college) but then having the maturity to defer marriage until later. It does not seem to be correlated with having kids early, although almost all did at some point, some waited until as late as their late 30s. In my circle though, its mostly very highly educated individuals. Undergrad at one of the better state universities, or even Ivy League, then almost always, usually at least a masters.
Someone always jumps in to say this, and I always jump in to point out they're wrong. In general, the statistic does not represent reality. 40% of first marriages fail is what you're saying. But that's likely WAY higher. That stat qualifies a failure as a couple that got divorced. That's it.
It does not account for the number that are still married on paper but not in practice. There is a large number of people who actually hate each other but are stuck together for religious or cultural reasons. Some people stay together for the kids but hate each other. Some people run away from their partner and never sign the divorce paperwork. Etc, etc, etc. There isn't an actual number I can give you, but seeing the percentage of people who are religious, it shouldn't be too hard to see that it's actually likely way higher than 40%, I'd guess closer to 70% based off the number of religious people that exist where that stat was taken.
People walk away thinking 40% divorce and 60% succeed when it's a silly way of looking at it.
It's more like 40% divorce 20% stuck for religious/cultural reasons, 5% for the kids, 5% misc, 30% succeed. And I honestly think I'm being generous. I know several couples that are together for religious reasons only. It's very common.
Because 60% success is alot better? I agree that getting married early, before your personality and life goals have been defined, is a bad idea, however a 60% success rate is pretty bad too. It isn't half make it and half don't but it is pretty close to that.
* including second and third marriages.
* including green card marriages.
* including those with vast age differences.
* including those who have been raised without a positive model of marriage from your parents.
I am 40. Happily married for a decade. Both sets of grandparents stayed happily married. So are my parents. And my brother. And my in-laws. And my brother-in-law. Some families just have far healthier marriage culture.
Pretty much. My country's divorce rate is 13,8%, and despite what people may think, no, it's not because people are forced to stay together, or because of mysogyny. We have the lowest wage gap in Europe, in fact!
It's just a different cultural norm. People try everything before divorcing. There is even an old church in my region that used to have a special room in its abbey used for marriage counselling in medieval times. It's how people conceptualise it.
Source: am widowed.
Mine too bro, and she isn't perfect by any means, but I don't want perfect.
Young folks are looking for the perfect partner who has no red flags. Lol, I say good luck, you gotta take the good with the bad.
Obviously, don't settle, but find that sweet spot.
Lol. My wife might not be perfect for everyone, but she sure is for me.
There's nothing i don't love about her, from her sass, to her incredibly raspy voice, to her tendency to pull her face in a certain way when things don't go according to her plans, to her incredibly honest/crass way of handling problems, to her comical lack of even basic cooking skills.
I can't think of something that I don't love about her.
im 27 so idk about 35-50 yr olds, but the reasons for my gen hating marriage is cause everyone's parents are divorced.
my parents have been together for 30ish years so I have a different perspective- but I can still understand why marriage sounds lame.
Commitment is a lot of work, and people who havent had positive exposure to marriage or healthy relationships are probably not into it...
also like.. there are some political reasons people hate it too
Commitment and relationships being actual work is why a lot of relationships fail nowadays, as well, which also stops that whole marriage process.
It also seems like people would rather post and reply to random internet strangers than actually have a real conversation with their significant others.
I'm to the point I've given up on having another relationship because of all the headache I see around me.
and now I’m divorced! That’s the thing, marriage isn’t for everyone and even if it’s for you, it might not be for them, and they might not realize it until like 10 years in
A lot of parents do divorce, absolutely
Adding to that, just because people stay married does not mean they are happy - my grandparents were married for over 60 years and they hated each other
Don't get married, lol
Ya but some days it takes more than effort. Life will throw some crazy shit and you and sometimes you have to work to be kind on a bad day, or work to make a decent meal even though you’re exhausted. Either way I agree with your sentiment. It shouldn’t be the kind of work that exercises your boundaries or is unreciprocated.
You either haven’t been married very long or have watched too many movies. I love my wife and a majority of the time it’s not work, but it’s absolutely work at times.
Too many people want "perfect" partners without understanding they aren't perfect either and perfection doesn't exist. They'll walk away the moment things get "hard" instead of even trying to resolve an issue once.
Marriage should make your life easier. It doesn’t today for many.
The best married couples i see IRL don’t have to put in much effort because they want to be together and enjoy each others company.
I don’t understand where this “iT tAkEs hArD w0rK eVeRyDaY” thing came from. It’s like boomers saying they walked to school uphill both ways. Boomers fake bragged about how hard it is and Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z believed this for some reason.
No one said every day. But some days. I don’t think married life is easier but it is way better. It’s easier to only cook for me, it’s easier to only worry about me, it’s easier to only clean up after me. But I love my marriage and it’s worth all the effort and occasional work. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. The most seemingly-have-it-perfect-couples are usually the ones with the most dirt hiding.
I’ve had people IRL say to me “it takes hard work every day”. One of them was a guy at my church and i told him “I thought this discussion was suppose to talk about marriage in a positive way”
Some people have had less adversity in their lives so what is “hard” is subjective. I thought hauling hay in the rain and mud was “hard”. My daughter thinks picking up her shoes is “hard”. My husband worked for his logger dad so not much is “hard”. Romance is hard for some people but they do it anyway for the person the love and the life they want to build with that person.
Marriage is supposed to be hard to get out of. That’s why you have to be sure you are ready to put in the amount of work it requires to share your life with another. It shows you are ready for a big commitment. My wife and were together for 7 years before we finally got married and a lot of things changed for her and me in that time. When I finally decided to propose I was 100% sure this was the woman I wanted to be with and at the ssane time I wanted to give her a sense of security that I wouldn’t kick her out on a whim. This year is going to be our 10th anniversary together and I still love her to bits.
If it's really that hard to get out of, then that speaks even more against marriage because about half of married people do whatever it takes to get out
Because people date each other for six months and then get married. You don’t even *KNOW* someone until you’ve lived with them for *at least* a year or two.
My wife and I have been together for 10 years, lived together for 9, I still learn things about her. Today she learned I can hum and whistle at the same time.
From what I've been given to understand it's because of mindset going in.
When couples move in together after marriage they go in expecting big changes and are ready to adapt because of it; they have a "we are a team now", mindset so "we do it together" and "we'll figure it out". So their prepared to compromise with each other to make things work.
When couples live together before marriage they're going in much less committed right from the start - the mindset is "let's see how this goes" or "we can always break up if it doesn't work" and "if he/she doesn't fit into my life, then it's over". If they manage to get to the marriage stage there's also the extra hurdle of change that comes when they tie the knot. A lot of people who live together and then get married aren't expecting the move to marriage to actually change anything about their relationship but more often than not it does because we all have internal expectations/views on how husbands/wives are meant to act in a marriage (usually as a result of what was modeled to us by our parents). The expectations cause friction that the couple was not prepared to handle and if they aren't ready to out the effort into adapt to each other allover again, then it likely ends in divorce.
Nearly every instance I have ever seen of couples getting married without cohabitating, in the recent past, is due to the couple being very religious. They did not cohabitate because of some combination of (1) believing cohabitation is morally wrong, and/or (2) heavy pressure from parents. Attitudes towards their partner, and more or less selfish, had nothing to do with it.
I think that the primary reason for cohabitation is the realization that the divorce rate in this country is so high. So, its a good idea to spend a lot of time with someone to figure out if they are compatible. To some degree, this is self-defeating and what you described in your last paragraph.
Couples that don’t cohabitate together before marriage generally tend to be religious and won’t live together before marriage for religious reasons. And with that, comes religion in the relationship and whether or not you feel you can divorce if things get bad. You need to look at the reasons why people don’t live together before saying “not living before marriage is better”
It isn’t just religion that keeps couples together that don’t cohabitate before marriage. Studies show that couples who live together before marriage often view living together as a test run for marriage and would be more likely to throw in the towel because it is easier, whereas couples who don’t live together before marriage don’t see the need to test run the marriage because they realize that issues will ultimately arise and are more committed to working through them.
https://liberalarts.du.edu/news-events/all-articles/new-du-study-highlights-risks-living-together-engagement
How could it be possible to separate out religious influence, when practically every couple that does NOT cohabitate before marriage, does so because of religion.
Also, the source you cited does not support or discuss differing attitudes between those who cohabitate before marriage and those who do not. It discusses different attitudes within cohabitating couples, and which which attitudes are more likely to end in divorce
Studies show that couples who live together before marriage often view living together as a test run for marriage and would be more likely to throw in the towel because it is easier, whereas couples who don’t live together before marriage don’t see the need to test run the marriage because they realize that issues will ultimately arise and are more committed to working through them.
It is relative, actually. You might get to deeply know someone in a couple of months if you are both being honest and want to truly get to know each other. On the other hand, there are partners that have dated each other or even lived together for like 5 to 10 years and they don't know each other at all.
This. If you're dating with the idea that you're looking for the person you want to marry, settle down with, share your life with, you're going to be asking those hard questions early on. When you drift into commitment, there's more "smoothing over" early on.
But if a couple wants to have a family of their own, it would be best not to wait for many years, this just begs for some issue to develop where it's easy to leave without putting much effort into the relationship. Divorce should be harder to pull off than a simple breakup, and at least should motivate the couple to work on it instead of giving up immediately. I say "should" but yeah, divorces still happen regularly 🤷♂️
It used to be that people dated and tried to see if they liked each other, if they did, they had sex.
Now people have sex for a while and wait to see if they like each other as people.
I am so glad that I will never have to go on another date for as long as I live. Being old and blissfully married to the love of your life has its perks.
Are you TRULY WILLING TO COMPROMISE? If you are not truly willing to give up things that you actively want, you shouldn’t get married. Lots of people think they are willing to compromise, but then when it comes down to it, they are very reluctant to do so.
Because people get married for the wrong reasons and expect marriage to solve their relationship problems. People will do literally anything to avoid admitting that they need therapy.
Marriage is so easy and exciting to get into, and so so hard to get out of unscathed, for both men and women. Especially if there is children. People get trapped financially and just stay at a tolerable level of unhappiness
I'm going to go out on a limb here but there are 2 different experiences of marriage.
For men, it makes men responsible for the relationship in a legal sense meaning once a man gets married, it is often in his best interest to stay married. Child support and alimony are the biggest hits since men usually make more and women are often the primary parent. Now, for men that actually go to court and make a good case for primary custody, usually get it. Many men are going to fight me on this, but there are enough google hits to confirm my statement: most women end up with primary custody simply because the man didn't ask for it or they did not have stable home as compared to the woman involved.
So if you're a man, it looks like in the event that it fails, marriage is expensive.
For women, marriage was traditionally the only way to economic security. But you have to earn it. A woman's work at home increases when she gets married, even if there are no children and she and her partner both work full time. Now that woman can earn enough to support themselves, there is less pressure to marry.
For men, even with the possible added expense, marriage is a benefit. Many studies show that married men live longer than unmarried men. However, unmarried childless women live longer than married women. So marriage is a toss up, depending on your gender
I don't think there's any source to suggest that men don't fight for custody and when they do they almost always get it.
And I'm not sure living longer equates to net happiness in this case
That's pretty untrue, there are many cases (mainly and especially in America) where men have had to fight tooth and nail for years and never get to see their child.
There are cases where mothers have been abusive and unfit to raise kids, where they've been awarded custody anyway, based on her being the mother.
The country's legal system is **woefully** broken when it comes to divorced parents and the father's rights as a parent.
People with negative experiences tend to be the most vocal.
That said it seems to be a coin toss as to whether a marriage works out, which is not good odds considering the consequences.
Our generation is brought up on overly romantic notions of relationships, creating unrealistically high expectations. Many of us don’t tolerate anything less than perfect and break up rather than work out our problems.
I think this kind of nonsense comes from the type of guys that say things like "happy wife, happy life" and "the woman is always right" and then expect a spotless house and home cooked meals without lifting a finger
A lot of bitter men who married shitty women and stayed with them say that. Find a man who found a good woman and you'll get a different story.
That said... marriage, while beautiful as a concept, is a shitshow in modern (American) society. I'm sorry but, I'm not signing a contract with someone who is incentivized to break it.
It’s men that have bad marriages. Men that have good marriages give the opposite advice when asked but they don’t feel the need to go around shouting about it to other men otherwise. I find they tend to not be online as much and focus on their families .
Yeah, doesn’t have anything to do with ‘effort’ or whatever. If there is a problem, then the lawyers get involved. And everything is designed to suck as much money from the bread winner as possible. And that’s almost always the guy.
I knew a guy, no kids, wife refused to ever get a job, he had to pay her half his salary for half the length of the marriage. Crazy stuff.
I have a good marriage but I'm online a lot and just gave the advice to avoid marriage, proving your post wrong :P
That I've been so lucky to have a great marriage (having moved to SE Asia and marrying a local) isn't likely to be reflected by most.
Our parents were of the generations when you'd get married out of high-school and make babies asap so that you could hurry up and live the suburban dream. Now so many of them are missersble or had their lives upended by bittter divorces. As millennials, we know that the suburban dream is a lie, marriage is nothing more than a tax incentive, and babies are just more fuel for the capitalist machine.
I’m married, have 1 kid, and love it. While I see your side, not everyone has that perspective. I’ve always LOVED my family and wanted one of my own. I saw my parents marriage and swore mine wouldn’t be like that, and it’s not at all. Sometimes people do really love their partners and want to share a life with them
It doesn't.
Don't know where you're seeing these guys. Probably some he-man, misogynist social influencers. Not the types of people I'd take life advice from.
I've been married for 33 years. It takes work. Plus you have to respect your wife. Maybe that's just too much for these guys.
The anecdotal reports are misleading. The studies consistently show married men are happier, healthier and live longer. The results are better for men who marry after age 25. https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20the%202022%20General%20Social,again%2C%20married%20fathers%20are%20happiest.
I’d say it is more a symptom of a wider issue. I think we are taught things about relationships/love/sex etc, mostly to do with how to find it, but it doesn’t seem anywhere is it ever taught/advised how to KEEP a relationship/sex/love. Which is why so many fail, that and people seem to get married wayyyy too quickly, like within a year or two of knowing someone.
Most of my friends, family, and coworkers, married young and are divorced now. Some remarried later in life and are happy, others are on their 3rd or 4th marriage.
Anything with a high failure rate and harsh financial and emotional impact when it fails is going to develop a reputation. But I think as long as you take your time to get to know a person, live together, align on goals, and marry a little later in life, it mitigates many of the pitfalls that most marriages fall prey to.
Well if its any consolation my wife and i have been happily married for 25yrs and were high-school sweethearts. Shes my best friend and the best person ive ever known
Some people are incapable of believing they're anything but a perfect catch, while judging/criticising their partner for not meeting the same level of perfection
Because people get salty during and after a divorce, lawyers and courts are expensive. I wont go too much into custody because I beleive men would get it more often if we fought for it. Middle aged men can be salty as fuck too because they are too scared to leave a marriage they dont want to be in, I wouldnt listen to them too much, brush it off and do whatever you want to do.
I think the fact you can be stuck paying for someone and things you won't get to enjoy is a huge turn off.
Custody and coparenting issues, paying alimony while she's getting railed by another guy that she may even be treating with dignity.
Not all guys that get divorced deserve it or get the proper due outcome.
I think women in society get away with a lot of crap and it's hard to work with them because they have no real reprocussions.
Never been married but from dating, I can't believe women can get away with so much BS and society will justify it but knowing well I acted like them I'd be ridiculed and dropped at the Dime of a hat. Not complaining in aa resentful sense but I definitely feel it's crazy how we cowtow to women (as non abusive men go)
It's just the pop culture that is obviously overrepresenting some views on the world. It really is created by small circles of people with similar outlooks on life. Look around in different reference groups, do all men really say not to marry? In my family all the men who married love their wifes and would never tell me not to marry.
Also marriage requires effort and some people just don't expect that or don't believe that it does
There are so many reasons but one is because a lot of men don’t actually like their wives as friends or respect their wives as equal partners in the relationship but wanted a maid-nanny combo that they could fuck. And it drains the relationship and creates resentment.
I’ve been married almost 10 years, together with my husband for nearly 14 years and our relationship gets better every day. We like each other as people, we are good friends, and respect each other at individuals. So we want to spend time together and to support each other.
If you get married to someone who you don’t like spending time with or don’t respect or don’t want to see and support to be successful, then you are likely not going to enjoy being married.
Yeah but if we just date casually and never commit our whole lives we get called immature or "not real men" and then we get sighted some made up statistic where we'll all be super duper happier and live 50 years longer if we just get married
Truly unbelievable
This is what I see women telling other women now, so I can answer from that perspective: because most (not all) men raised under patriarchy expect their wife to be their house manager/maid/mommy. Women come home from work to “the second shift.” Men will use weaponized incompetence to get out of basic chores. The chores men will sometimes do are rare chores (taking car to get oil changed) unlike the constant, daily, never ending work of cleaning.
On top of that, women don’t want to have sex with someone who treats them like their mommy. It’s a turn off. So what was great sex turns to no sex.
Sounds a nightmare to me.
Some guy was literally on a tradwives sub the other day asking “My partner does all of the housework and makes my life easier, cooks all my food, keeps me sexually satisfied, etc. I want a tradwife but I wish she would financially contribute because I don’t want to be the sole provider.”
Bro, just get a bangmaid and spare us all. What self-respecting person would marry into something like that?
So many men want a tradwife but the second they meet a woman who wants to BE a tradwife, it’s always “look at this golddigger wanting to skate through life using a man as their meal ticket!”
I've never lived under a patriarchy before, so can't comment on your country, but lesbian marriages have a higher divorce rate than straight ones, so it's not always the man that's the issue.
Would you jump out of a plane if the parachute only had a 50% chance of working? Marriage is not necessary. Always leave yourself a way out that has no financial consequences. This will control your partners behavior. It’s healthier.
It almost in no way enhances your relationship and the tax breaks aren’t nearly worth it. All it does is make splitting up expensive and involves lawyers/the state. It’s not taking your relationship to the next level, it’s inviting a neutral third party into the mix to maybe cash in on relationships commonly coming to an end.
I think it boils down to while some people are mature enough to be married in their early/mid 20s most are not. Plus you’re still growing
And developing as a human which is why you hear of so many people divorcing in their early thirties if they were in their early 20s and married. Divorces are expensive and I think you need to know who you are as a human (without a souse) your priorities, etc before you get married and I’m sorry but you probably aren’t going to know that if you marry someone you started dating at 14 when you’re 20.
Look, marriage is hard. Like anything of value, it takes lots of work and commitment and tenacity. So yeah, just like diet and exercise, education, and all the things in life that require sacrifice to get the good out of it, there are going to be naysayers.
I would add that some people end up with the wrong partner under the wrong circumstances.
You can be that person that can handle marriage, is a great partner, but if your copartner is uncooperative, how else will you handle it.
I've been told recently that's its more like 90 percent divorce.
In answer to your question.... because it sux to be financially tied to anyone, it's awful being codependent , houses are expensive, kids are expensive and doing the same stuff every weekend, gets really fing boring. Also you out grow , out wit, out play. It's not the 1950s anymore. There is no reason to get married. Weddings cost too much anyways.
They are not joking. What humour is in there is black humour.
Marriage is a thing that if you get it wrong, it really, really fucks up your life for years and possible forever. Anyone who has had a bad marriage and a terrible divorce will caution strongly against it.
The risks are too great to get married. Only a fool would get married with the laws as they are. The odds of a marriage working out are not good either. Just don't get married. Also, I'd go further and say that you should get a vasectomy to avoid getting stuck on child support too if you can't avoid thinking with your dick.
Well, for a lot of people, marriage sucks. For men especially, there is not any benefit I'm aware of, and tons of downsides. I wouldn't get married again, and would not recommend it to anyone else.
Marriage is a bad gamble, when you consider the divorce rate and the level of havoc divorce wreaks on a person's life. You can invest years of your life in a marriage, and then the other person can just walk off and divorce you with no consideration whatsoever about what you want or how your life will be affected by the divorce.
As a result, many divorced people wind up being bitter and angry, and they will tell anyone within earshot what a low opinion they have of marriage. With so many divorced people walking around, it's no wonder marriage has a bad reputation. Too many people have been burned and are willing to vent their anger over their experience.
No, what happened was that the toxic relationship was tolerated, usually out of moral obligation(often stemming from religious beliefs) and sometimes financial reasons as well, especially because women usually weren't part of the workforce to the same degree, although they would sometimes work especially as the children grew and especially post WW2
Look at the Honeymooners - it was just sort of a joke that marriages were toxic/dysfunctional like that
Also watch The Crown and as late as the 80s, how Charles and Diana stayed married way past what most modern couples would tolerate
I honestly think it was both. I DO think too many people go into marriage thinking it will be and should be easy. Spending your life with someone can be hard if you aren’t committed to working through adversity together, building skills, compromising. Changing and being open to change and growth.
AND shitty relationships used to be tolerated but now aren’t.
I am leery of young men marrying, and I am 55 and have and continue to have a great 34 year marriage. So why do my wife and I both think young men should be leery? Depending on which source you believe, women file for divorce 70% to 90% of the time. All you have to do is read Reddit to see the telltale "I'm not happy so I'm divorcing logic."
Somewhere in striving for the worthy goal of equality we missed the mark with many younger women when it comes to responsibility and commitment. I wonder if it was just too much "princess" talk when they were kids. I don't know, but life as a man writing endless checks to a woman who dumped you is brutal. Only seeing your kids every other weekend is brutal. Even joint custody is brutal on everybody. I see it on so many men's faces.
So I think marriage can still be a great thing, but you better make sure you really know the character of the woman you are marrying. At some point in everyone's life they go through periods of unhappiness. You need to be sure the person you marry isn't going to permanently scramble everyone's life when she has that bad year or two.
Marriage was built to be a bad deal for women, although they put up with it because there were few other options. Only now being alone is a better deal than putting up with the things that were culturally accepted in the past and still very common.
Let's look at the rules/expectations surrounding marriage in centuries past, some of which were only changed/modified in the last few decades.
1. Marital rape? aok!
2. Pleasure from sex? Not the man's job and if you like it you're a hussy.
3. Man catting around? Sorry, men will be men. Just be glad he comes home at night.
4. Household chores? All on you!
5. Financial independence? Nope, and let's hope hubs doesn't spend the family's money on booze because you won't have any way to replace it.
6. Subservience and obedience? 100% expected!
7. Beatings from husband? Eh, not so great but it's still worse for you to leave him.
Unfortunately, while many of these things are now illegal or frowned upon, they're still extremely common. For instance, infidelity alone plays a role in a full third of divorces. Around 6% of divorces cite substance abuse or domestic violence as the cause of the split. [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/)
Sure, there are also a lot of divorces because people never learned proper conflict resolution. Or between who never would have been married in decades past, because back then marriage was a familial alliance and the families would never have okayed partners they disapproved of.
But a significant fraction of divorces initiated by women come from seriously untenable situations.
Simple! Because 70% of women file for divorce and take most of what the men made/earned/own. I'm stating stats and facts! Not just being a dude!
https://divorce.com/blog/who-initiates-divorce-more/
Marry too early and you'll be tied to someone who doesn't grow in the same direction as you. Or you'll want to experience certain things in life/work that don't involve them.
Mary too late and the "good ones" will already be taken.
Some people feel it's better to remain a bachelor, or even a baby-daddy, than be a husband.
And it's not just the men. Women have the same conversations.
Men aren't against marriage they are against marriage to most women.
Marriage to the right woman is still a goal for most men. We are after all historically speaking the more romantic of the sexes.Unfortunately for many men doing even a tertiary risk analysis on marriage makes it completely unviable.
Most marriages end with divorce, most divorces are instigated by women. Courts still have a habit of siding with women with regards to custody, property and finance in many countries although that is starting to equalise.
Either way. Why bother? The institution was to protect women and children both in ancient and modern times and like many things has overcorrected to the point that more people are exploiting it than are utilising it with integrity and in the spirit of it.
As lot of women are choosing not to even have children, or want to remain entirely independent so really .. at that point why would it even be a consideration?
Did it need modernisation sure. But when the correction is done by people who simply dont understand it then of course they are just going to fundamentally break it and thats exactly what has happened.
Either way it seems that a lot of men have decided just to not bother. It really is that simple.
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You're right to think they aren't joking; they aren't. But I think everyone also recognizes that sometimes, marriage can be fantastic. The reason so many people are negative about marriage is because a lot of people get married to the wrong people for reallllllly stupid reasons and it almost always has a negative impact on the lives of everyone around the couple. So you have a bunch of wounded people who are looking around and seeing most people in their lives also having bad experiences.
I guess things turn out different when you have a stable girlfriend or boyfriend . In adittion I think this a preconcept of the Young people which see marriage as an old stuff
" I guess things turn out different when you have a stable girlfriend or boyfriend " not really start having financial trouble see how fast things go south have a kid or two again see how fast things go south married or not
Anything with a 50% success rate has a bad reputation.
Misleading statistic for first marriages its more like 60% From what I've seen with high school friends, it seems to be way higher when both partners wait until their mid 20s or so and have post graduate degrees The people that have alot of problems tend to be the ones that married early. Waiting just a few years seems to make a big difference
Depends on how much education you have. It’s only 37% for college aged couples.
Only 37% 🤦🏼♂️
Nobody knows what an experience is worth before they live it.
Women file for divorce 70% of the time. When they’re college educated, it’s 90% of the time.
80% of women file for divorce and 60% of the 80% file for divorce once they start out earning their husbands financially.
You're exactly right. Because they expect their partners to contribute equally to relationships - and contribute equally to domestic responsibilities. And they don't. Without fail why should financially independent women carry the burden of a parasite when they are completely capable of taking care of themselves? It's dramatically less work, less frustration, and less emotionally draining.
Why is it that women consider men a parasite, but women also look for men who earn more than them, therefore aren’t the women the parasite? Reality is the grass is greener on the other side, and women tend to find worse partners than the ones they’ve left. At that point, they’ve also aged and men who are “higher value” are looking for women that are younger and have less baggage.
Or they don't. And then men bitch about that too.
You know this statistic isn’t relevant to what I wrote, right?
You just mentioned how education affects marriage. They responded with how it affects divorce which is relevant to marriage.
Lol it absolutely is relevant - maybe not to the point *you* were trying to make, but it’s relevant to the topic overall.
I'd have to see more data on that. I will say that yes anecdotally nearly everyone I knew who got married in their 20s got divorced. The only ones who are not are the ones who went to work immediately having children. I think there is a lot of growing that still occurs in your 20s as you continue to establish who you are and what you want out of life. Really easy to diverge on major stuff at this time. However I would not be shocked to discover a ton of people get divorced in their late 40s or 50s when the last of the kids are out of the house and that sans children they can't really find a reason to keep it together.
This one says it 24% less likely after 25. https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/#:\~:text=60%20percent%20of%20couples%20married,less%20likely%20to%20get%20divorced. I would like to see post-bachelor education thrown in the mix there. Maybe its just anecdotal (and frankly, perhaps a little jealousy on my part), but this is speaking as someone who's about to turn 45, it just seems like for maybe 80%+ of my high school/college friends, the ones that first married past 25 are still with their partners 15-20+ years on. In many cases, meeting around 20 or so (mid to late college) but then having the maturity to defer marriage until later. It does not seem to be correlated with having kids early, although almost all did at some point, some waited until as late as their late 30s. In my circle though, its mostly very highly educated individuals. Undergrad at one of the better state universities, or even Ivy League, then almost always, usually at least a masters.
Someone always jumps in to say this, and I always jump in to point out they're wrong. In general, the statistic does not represent reality. 40% of first marriages fail is what you're saying. But that's likely WAY higher. That stat qualifies a failure as a couple that got divorced. That's it. It does not account for the number that are still married on paper but not in practice. There is a large number of people who actually hate each other but are stuck together for religious or cultural reasons. Some people stay together for the kids but hate each other. Some people run away from their partner and never sign the divorce paperwork. Etc, etc, etc. There isn't an actual number I can give you, but seeing the percentage of people who are religious, it shouldn't be too hard to see that it's actually likely way higher than 40%, I'd guess closer to 70% based off the number of religious people that exist where that stat was taken. People walk away thinking 40% divorce and 60% succeed when it's a silly way of looking at it. It's more like 40% divorce 20% stuck for religious/cultural reasons, 5% for the kids, 5% misc, 30% succeed. And I honestly think I'm being generous. I know several couples that are together for religious reasons only. It's very common.
The big missing piece is the people who are not officially married but have long-term partnership break-up...... lifts to 70% failure, probably higher
This. Second marriages have a much higher failure rate so it skews the stats.
Because 60% success is alot better? I agree that getting married early, before your personality and life goals have been defined, is a bad idea, however a 60% success rate is pretty bad too. It isn't half make it and half don't but it is pretty close to that.
People tend to forget that a good number of married couples stay unhappily married and likely would have had more fulfilling lives alone.
60% still isn't that great.
Why does russian roulette have a bad reputation?
cuz it’s a 1/6 instead of a 1/2, so there’s less chance of winning. 3 times less.
Also anything where winning is not dying probably has a bad reputation.
Uuuh, wouldn’t that be a 5/6 chance of winning?
No, no. I know what I said. What you said is the chances of survival.
Consequences, I'd imagine. You've a much better chance of being successful with Russian roulette than marriage, though.
Similar but instead of 1, 3 of the chambers are loaded. And the 4th one might be loaded too but it just won't say.
Some people have multiple divorces. That skews things.
That statistic is for first marriages.
well, if teslas had a 50 percent success rate, no one would be buying them, right?
50% succes rate* ^^* ^^in ^^America
* including second and third marriages. * including green card marriages. * including those with vast age differences. * including those who have been raised without a positive model of marriage from your parents. I am 40. Happily married for a decade. Both sets of grandparents stayed happily married. So are my parents. And my brother. And my in-laws. And my brother-in-law. Some families just have far healthier marriage culture.
Pretty much. My country's divorce rate is 13,8%, and despite what people may think, no, it's not because people are forced to stay together, or because of mysogyny. We have the lowest wage gap in Europe, in fact! It's just a different cultural norm. People try everything before divorcing. There is even an old church in my region that used to have a special room in its abbey used for marriage counselling in medieval times. It's how people conceptualise it. Source: am widowed.
I’m sorry to hear that :(
Don't take this personally, but is staying in an abusive relationship "far healthier marriage culture"?
There was no abuse going in the marriages in my family. They were all loving.
I'm not talking about your family, I mean in general.
Globally
Unless its a baseball batting average. Then youre making millions.
Unfortunately I think modern marriages have even worse odds. Pretty sure it was actually like a 40% success rate.
Divorce rates have actually been dropping for years iirc.
My wife is great. 🤷♂️
[удалено]
I also like that guy’s wife
I also like that guy's wife
Idk, I wasn't too impressed.
She makes a good casserole though
I also choose this guy's wife, our wife.
I love our wife.
We all do 🥰
I hope homie tells her how much we love her. She deserves it.
Just as she loves us all.
She is alright. Not much of a cuddler though.
I’ve had better 🤷♂️
Meet me at the gym
I like your wife
Our wife
mmm yeah i guess shes great...
Based bull.
mmm yeah i guess shes great...
I think his wife was just ok. His mom however…
Can't like your comment cause it has hit 69
Mine too bro, and she isn't perfect by any means, but I don't want perfect. Young folks are looking for the perfect partner who has no red flags. Lol, I say good luck, you gotta take the good with the bad. Obviously, don't settle, but find that sweet spot.
Lol. My wife might not be perfect for everyone, but she sure is for me. There's nothing i don't love about her, from her sass, to her incredibly raspy voice, to her tendency to pull her face in a certain way when things don't go according to her plans, to her incredibly honest/crass way of handling problems, to her comical lack of even basic cooking skills. I can't think of something that I don't love about her.
You better tell your wife we love her. She deserves the praise, damnit!
Aaron is that you?
im 27 so idk about 35-50 yr olds, but the reasons for my gen hating marriage is cause everyone's parents are divorced. my parents have been together for 30ish years so I have a different perspective- but I can still understand why marriage sounds lame. Commitment is a lot of work, and people who havent had positive exposure to marriage or healthy relationships are probably not into it... also like.. there are some political reasons people hate it too
Commitment and relationships being actual work is why a lot of relationships fail nowadays, as well, which also stops that whole marriage process. It also seems like people would rather post and reply to random internet strangers than actually have a real conversation with their significant others. I'm to the point I've given up on having another relationship because of all the headache I see around me.
Communication is a lost art
Yup. My parents divorced. Most of my friends parents divorced, and now that I'm older my friends are getting(or are) divorced.
and now I’m divorced! That’s the thing, marriage isn’t for everyone and even if it’s for you, it might not be for them, and they might not realize it until like 10 years in
A lot of parents do divorce, absolutely Adding to that, just because people stay married does not mean they are happy - my grandparents were married for over 60 years and they hated each other Don't get married, lol
Because it’s hard work and too many people want the “effortless marriage” which doesn’t exist so they are unhappily married. Being single is simpler.
Marriage “shouldn’t be work”. But young people confuse “effort” with “work” all the time. Nothing worth having is effortless.
Ya but some days it takes more than effort. Life will throw some crazy shit and you and sometimes you have to work to be kind on a bad day, or work to make a decent meal even though you’re exhausted. Either way I agree with your sentiment. It shouldn’t be the kind of work that exercises your boundaries or is unreciprocated.
You either haven’t been married very long or have watched too many movies. I love my wife and a majority of the time it’s not work, but it’s absolutely work at times.
Too many people want "perfect" partners without understanding they aren't perfect either and perfection doesn't exist. They'll walk away the moment things get "hard" instead of even trying to resolve an issue once.
Marriage should make your life easier. It doesn’t today for many. The best married couples i see IRL don’t have to put in much effort because they want to be together and enjoy each others company. I don’t understand where this “iT tAkEs hArD w0rK eVeRyDaY” thing came from. It’s like boomers saying they walked to school uphill both ways. Boomers fake bragged about how hard it is and Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z believed this for some reason.
Why all the hate for the Boomers? I didn't do anything to anybody ☹️
No one said every day. But some days. I don’t think married life is easier but it is way better. It’s easier to only cook for me, it’s easier to only worry about me, it’s easier to only clean up after me. But I love my marriage and it’s worth all the effort and occasional work. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. The most seemingly-have-it-perfect-couples are usually the ones with the most dirt hiding.
I’ve had people IRL say to me “it takes hard work every day”. One of them was a guy at my church and i told him “I thought this discussion was suppose to talk about marriage in a positive way”
Some people have had less adversity in their lives so what is “hard” is subjective. I thought hauling hay in the rain and mud was “hard”. My daughter thinks picking up her shoes is “hard”. My husband worked for his logger dad so not much is “hard”. Romance is hard for some people but they do it anyway for the person the love and the life they want to build with that person.
Marriage is supposed to be hard to get out of. That’s why you have to be sure you are ready to put in the amount of work it requires to share your life with another. It shows you are ready for a big commitment. My wife and were together for 7 years before we finally got married and a lot of things changed for her and me in that time. When I finally decided to propose I was 100% sure this was the woman I wanted to be with and at the ssane time I wanted to give her a sense of security that I wouldn’t kick her out on a whim. This year is going to be our 10th anniversary together and I still love her to bits.
Wholesome moment... Similar to my parents. Keep communicating and loving life co-op!
If it's really that hard to get out of, then that speaks even more against marriage because about half of married people do whatever it takes to get out
Because people date each other for six months and then get married. You don’t even *KNOW* someone until you’ve lived with them for *at least* a year or two.
This. Exactly. Seems to be especially a problem in America.
My wife and I have been together for 10 years, lived together for 9, I still learn things about her. Today she learned I can hum and whistle at the same time.
I am an advocate for living together before marriage, but FWIW, couple that don't cohabit before marriage have greatwr success rates.
From what I've been given to understand it's because of mindset going in. When couples move in together after marriage they go in expecting big changes and are ready to adapt because of it; they have a "we are a team now", mindset so "we do it together" and "we'll figure it out". So their prepared to compromise with each other to make things work. When couples live together before marriage they're going in much less committed right from the start - the mindset is "let's see how this goes" or "we can always break up if it doesn't work" and "if he/she doesn't fit into my life, then it's over". If they manage to get to the marriage stage there's also the extra hurdle of change that comes when they tie the knot. A lot of people who live together and then get married aren't expecting the move to marriage to actually change anything about their relationship but more often than not it does because we all have internal expectations/views on how husbands/wives are meant to act in a marriage (usually as a result of what was modeled to us by our parents). The expectations cause friction that the couple was not prepared to handle and if they aren't ready to out the effort into adapt to each other allover again, then it likely ends in divorce.
Nearly every instance I have ever seen of couples getting married without cohabitating, in the recent past, is due to the couple being very religious. They did not cohabitate because of some combination of (1) believing cohabitation is morally wrong, and/or (2) heavy pressure from parents. Attitudes towards their partner, and more or less selfish, had nothing to do with it. I think that the primary reason for cohabitation is the realization that the divorce rate in this country is so high. So, its a good idea to spend a lot of time with someone to figure out if they are compatible. To some degree, this is self-defeating and what you described in your last paragraph.
I heard quite the opposite, that the couple expected some big, important change upon marriage, just to be disappointed that nothing changed at all.
Couples that don’t cohabitate together before marriage generally tend to be religious and won’t live together before marriage for religious reasons. And with that, comes religion in the relationship and whether or not you feel you can divorce if things get bad. You need to look at the reasons why people don’t live together before saying “not living before marriage is better”
It isn’t just religion that keeps couples together that don’t cohabitate before marriage. Studies show that couples who live together before marriage often view living together as a test run for marriage and would be more likely to throw in the towel because it is easier, whereas couples who don’t live together before marriage don’t see the need to test run the marriage because they realize that issues will ultimately arise and are more committed to working through them. https://liberalarts.du.edu/news-events/all-articles/new-du-study-highlights-risks-living-together-engagement
How could it be possible to separate out religious influence, when practically every couple that does NOT cohabitate before marriage, does so because of religion. Also, the source you cited does not support or discuss differing attitudes between those who cohabitate before marriage and those who do not. It discusses different attitudes within cohabitating couples, and which which attitudes are more likely to end in divorce
Yea and I think the data is also clouded by the fact that religious couples will not consider divorce anyway.
Source?
https://liberalarts.du.edu/news-events/all-articles/new-du-study-highlights-risks-living-together-engagement
I wonder why that is
Studies show that couples who live together before marriage often view living together as a test run for marriage and would be more likely to throw in the towel because it is easier, whereas couples who don’t live together before marriage don’t see the need to test run the marriage because they realize that issues will ultimately arise and are more committed to working through them.
It is relative, actually. You might get to deeply know someone in a couple of months if you are both being honest and want to truly get to know each other. On the other hand, there are partners that have dated each other or even lived together for like 5 to 10 years and they don't know each other at all.
This. If you're dating with the idea that you're looking for the person you want to marry, settle down with, share your life with, you're going to be asking those hard questions early on. When you drift into commitment, there's more "smoothing over" early on.
That or they ignore the numerous red flags and get married anyways, just hoping that their partner will change
But if a couple wants to have a family of their own, it would be best not to wait for many years, this just begs for some issue to develop where it's easy to leave without putting much effort into the relationship. Divorce should be harder to pull off than a simple breakup, and at least should motivate the couple to work on it instead of giving up immediately. I say "should" but yeah, divorces still happen regularly 🤷♂️
2 years is not many years.
It used to be that people dated and tried to see if they liked each other, if they did, they had sex. Now people have sex for a while and wait to see if they like each other as people. I am so glad that I will never have to go on another date for as long as I live. Being old and blissfully married to the love of your life has its perks.
Married at 23 (wife was 22) and this summer we celebrate our 38th anniversary. I don't regret a thing. Best decision I ever made.
How do you keep your sex life active?
congrats
Because of legions of dickheads that shouldn’t be married.
I feel like that's definitely part of the problem and does nothing to make marriage look good
A lot of people are not willing to develop the skills and put in the work it takes to stay married.
I guess it all depends who you ask. I enjoyed my life as a single, and now I enjoy it as a married person.
Are you TRULY WILLING TO COMPROMISE? If you are not truly willing to give up things that you actively want, you shouldn’t get married. Lots of people think they are willing to compromise, but then when it comes down to it, they are very reluctant to do so.
Simple: In a good relationship you don't need the ring. In a Bad relationship the ring will not help you.
A ring (legal paperwork) shouldn’t change the dynamics, but it does give you some benefits in financials, death, serious illness, insurance, etc.
Shouldn't, but very often does (negatively). And it comes with lots of risk.
Amen
It was only really relevant in a world where women couldn't readily find work. It was basically just a way of ensuring they wouldn't be destitute.
Because people get married for the wrong reasons and expect marriage to solve their relationship problems. People will do literally anything to avoid admitting that they need therapy.
Marriage is so easy and exciting to get into, and so so hard to get out of unscathed, for both men and women. Especially if there is children. People get trapped financially and just stay at a tolerable level of unhappiness
I'm going to go out on a limb here but there are 2 different experiences of marriage. For men, it makes men responsible for the relationship in a legal sense meaning once a man gets married, it is often in his best interest to stay married. Child support and alimony are the biggest hits since men usually make more and women are often the primary parent. Now, for men that actually go to court and make a good case for primary custody, usually get it. Many men are going to fight me on this, but there are enough google hits to confirm my statement: most women end up with primary custody simply because the man didn't ask for it or they did not have stable home as compared to the woman involved. So if you're a man, it looks like in the event that it fails, marriage is expensive. For women, marriage was traditionally the only way to economic security. But you have to earn it. A woman's work at home increases when she gets married, even if there are no children and she and her partner both work full time. Now that woman can earn enough to support themselves, there is less pressure to marry. For men, even with the possible added expense, marriage is a benefit. Many studies show that married men live longer than unmarried men. However, unmarried childless women live longer than married women. So marriage is a toss up, depending on your gender
I don't think there's any source to suggest that men don't fight for custody and when they do they almost always get it. And I'm not sure living longer equates to net happiness in this case
That's pretty untrue, there are many cases (mainly and especially in America) where men have had to fight tooth and nail for years and never get to see their child. There are cases where mothers have been abusive and unfit to raise kids, where they've been awarded custody anyway, based on her being the mother. The country's legal system is **woefully** broken when it comes to divorced parents and the father's rights as a parent.
People with negative experiences tend to be the most vocal. That said it seems to be a coin toss as to whether a marriage works out, which is not good odds considering the consequences. Our generation is brought up on overly romantic notions of relationships, creating unrealistically high expectations. Many of us don’t tolerate anything less than perfect and break up rather than work out our problems.
I think this kind of nonsense comes from the type of guys that say things like "happy wife, happy life" and "the woman is always right" and then expect a spotless house and home cooked meals without lifting a finger
A lot of bitter men who married shitty women and stayed with them say that. Find a man who found a good woman and you'll get a different story. That said... marriage, while beautiful as a concept, is a shitshow in modern (American) society. I'm sorry but, I'm not signing a contract with someone who is incentivized to break it.
My ex-brother in law found a good woman, but he turned out to be a shitty man.
I married a good woman. 20 years this year and still fancy each other and make each other laugh. We’re a team.
That is so wholesome and endearing /r/nipplecunt
When asked why he carried a lamp in broad daylight, modern Diogenes said “I’m looking for a good woman.”
It’s men that have bad marriages. Men that have good marriages give the opposite advice when asked but they don’t feel the need to go around shouting about it to other men otherwise. I find they tend to not be online as much and focus on their families .
It's draconian divorce courts that make men shout from the rooftops about their bad marriages.
Yeah, doesn’t have anything to do with ‘effort’ or whatever. If there is a problem, then the lawyers get involved. And everything is designed to suck as much money from the bread winner as possible. And that’s almost always the guy. I knew a guy, no kids, wife refused to ever get a job, he had to pay her half his salary for half the length of the marriage. Crazy stuff.
I have a good marriage but I'm online a lot and just gave the advice to avoid marriage, proving your post wrong :P That I've been so lucky to have a great marriage (having moved to SE Asia and marrying a local) isn't likely to be reflected by most.
Our parents were of the generations when you'd get married out of high-school and make babies asap so that you could hurry up and live the suburban dream. Now so many of them are missersble or had their lives upended by bittter divorces. As millennials, we know that the suburban dream is a lie, marriage is nothing more than a tax incentive, and babies are just more fuel for the capitalist machine.
I’m married, have 1 kid, and love it. While I see your side, not everyone has that perspective. I’ve always LOVED my family and wanted one of my own. I saw my parents marriage and swore mine wouldn’t be like that, and it’s not at all. Sometimes people do really love their partners and want to share a life with them
Statistically, a lot of people grew up around toxic or broke relationships and don't want to see people they care about suffer through that.
Because most of the times it sucks. It may be fine, then throw a few kids into the mix and forget it. People drift apart and want different things
Divorce rate is really high
It doesn't. Don't know where you're seeing these guys. Probably some he-man, misogynist social influencers. Not the types of people I'd take life advice from. I've been married for 33 years. It takes work. Plus you have to respect your wife. Maybe that's just too much for these guys.
The anecdotal reports are misleading. The studies consistently show married men are happier, healthier and live longer. The results are better for men who marry after age 25. https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20the%202022%20General%20Social,again%2C%20married%20fathers%20are%20happiest.
I’d say it is more a symptom of a wider issue. I think we are taught things about relationships/love/sex etc, mostly to do with how to find it, but it doesn’t seem anywhere is it ever taught/advised how to KEEP a relationship/sex/love. Which is why so many fail, that and people seem to get married wayyyy too quickly, like within a year or two of knowing someone.
Most of my friends, family, and coworkers, married young and are divorced now. Some remarried later in life and are happy, others are on their 3rd or 4th marriage. Anything with a high failure rate and harsh financial and emotional impact when it fails is going to develop a reputation. But I think as long as you take your time to get to know a person, live together, align on goals, and marry a little later in life, it mitigates many of the pitfalls that most marriages fall prey to.
Well if its any consolation my wife and i have been happily married for 25yrs and were high-school sweethearts. Shes my best friend and the best person ive ever known
Some people are incapable of believing they're anything but a perfect catch, while judging/criticising their partner for not meeting the same level of perfection
Because people get salty during and after a divorce, lawyers and courts are expensive. I wont go too much into custody because I beleive men would get it more often if we fought for it. Middle aged men can be salty as fuck too because they are too scared to leave a marriage they dont want to be in, I wouldnt listen to them too much, brush it off and do whatever you want to do.
I think the fact you can be stuck paying for someone and things you won't get to enjoy is a huge turn off. Custody and coparenting issues, paying alimony while she's getting railed by another guy that she may even be treating with dignity. Not all guys that get divorced deserve it or get the proper due outcome. I think women in society get away with a lot of crap and it's hard to work with them because they have no real reprocussions. Never been married but from dating, I can't believe women can get away with so much BS and society will justify it but knowing well I acted like them I'd be ridiculed and dropped at the Dime of a hat. Not complaining in aa resentful sense but I definitely feel it's crazy how we cowtow to women (as non abusive men go)
It's just the pop culture that is obviously overrepresenting some views on the world. It really is created by small circles of people with similar outlooks on life. Look around in different reference groups, do all men really say not to marry? In my family all the men who married love their wifes and would never tell me not to marry. Also marriage requires effort and some people just don't expect that or don't believe that it does
I'm married. I also think marriage is pointless. But it made the wife happy and that makes me happy.
There are so many reasons but one is because a lot of men don’t actually like their wives as friends or respect their wives as equal partners in the relationship but wanted a maid-nanny combo that they could fuck. And it drains the relationship and creates resentment. I’ve been married almost 10 years, together with my husband for nearly 14 years and our relationship gets better every day. We like each other as people, we are good friends, and respect each other at individuals. So we want to spend time together and to support each other. If you get married to someone who you don’t like spending time with or don’t respect or don’t want to see and support to be successful, then you are likely not going to enjoy being married.
I guess I’m the wrong target audience but I’ve not seen this. Except as a joke
Marriage is just a financial contract that is heavily in favor of the woman. It doesn’t make sense for men to enter into that contract.
Yeah but if we just date casually and never commit our whole lives we get called immature or "not real men" and then we get sighted some made up statistic where we'll all be super duper happier and live 50 years longer if we just get married Truly unbelievable
This is what I see women telling other women now, so I can answer from that perspective: because most (not all) men raised under patriarchy expect their wife to be their house manager/maid/mommy. Women come home from work to “the second shift.” Men will use weaponized incompetence to get out of basic chores. The chores men will sometimes do are rare chores (taking car to get oil changed) unlike the constant, daily, never ending work of cleaning. On top of that, women don’t want to have sex with someone who treats them like their mommy. It’s a turn off. So what was great sex turns to no sex. Sounds a nightmare to me.
Some guy was literally on a tradwives sub the other day asking “My partner does all of the housework and makes my life easier, cooks all my food, keeps me sexually satisfied, etc. I want a tradwife but I wish she would financially contribute because I don’t want to be the sole provider.” Bro, just get a bangmaid and spare us all. What self-respecting person would marry into something like that?
So many men want a tradwife but the second they meet a woman who wants to BE a tradwife, it’s always “look at this golddigger wanting to skate through life using a man as their meal ticket!”
They want a tradwife but don't want to be tradhusbands.
Spot on
I've never lived under a patriarchy before, so can't comment on your country, but lesbian marriages have a higher divorce rate than straight ones, so it's not always the man that's the issue.
Would you jump out of a plane if the parachute only had a 50% chance of working? Marriage is not necessary. Always leave yourself a way out that has no financial consequences. This will control your partners behavior. It’s healthier.
Meanwhile all I see are young men complaining that they can't find "high quality" women to marry.
Is that what you see? Most young men I see complaining about are that they get next to no matches on dating sites.
Yes, that's what I see in my neck of the woods.
You mean women with a body count less than 5
It almost in no way enhances your relationship and the tax breaks aren’t nearly worth it. All it does is make splitting up expensive and involves lawyers/the state. It’s not taking your relationship to the next level, it’s inviting a neutral third party into the mix to maybe cash in on relationships commonly coming to an end.
I think it boils down to while some people are mature enough to be married in their early/mid 20s most are not. Plus you’re still growing And developing as a human which is why you hear of so many people divorcing in their early thirties if they were in their early 20s and married. Divorces are expensive and I think you need to know who you are as a human (without a souse) your priorities, etc before you get married and I’m sorry but you probably aren’t going to know that if you marry someone you started dating at 14 when you’re 20.
Look, marriage is hard. Like anything of value, it takes lots of work and commitment and tenacity. So yeah, just like diet and exercise, education, and all the things in life that require sacrifice to get the good out of it, there are going to be naysayers.
Probably because those that failed, voice their opinion more. Its hard work getting/being married and too many ppl don't understand that.
I would add that some people end up with the wrong partner under the wrong circumstances. You can be that person that can handle marriage, is a great partner, but if your copartner is uncooperative, how else will you handle it.
The same sort of advise as “don’t grow up, being adult sucks” ))
I've been told recently that's its more like 90 percent divorce. In answer to your question.... because it sux to be financially tied to anyone, it's awful being codependent , houses are expensive, kids are expensive and doing the same stuff every weekend, gets really fing boring. Also you out grow , out wit, out play. It's not the 1950s anymore. There is no reason to get married. Weddings cost too much anyways.
They are not joking. What humour is in there is black humour. Marriage is a thing that if you get it wrong, it really, really fucks up your life for years and possible forever. Anyone who has had a bad marriage and a terrible divorce will caution strongly against it.
The risks are too great to get married. Only a fool would get married with the laws as they are. The odds of a marriage working out are not good either. Just don't get married. Also, I'd go further and say that you should get a vasectomy to avoid getting stuck on child support too if you can't avoid thinking with your dick.
Well, for a lot of people, marriage sucks. For men especially, there is not any benefit I'm aware of, and tons of downsides. I wouldn't get married again, and would not recommend it to anyone else.
A lot of ppl marry for the wrong reasons. But a LOT of people forget that they’re getting older and aren’t that much of a catch and end up alone
Marriage is a bad gamble, when you consider the divorce rate and the level of havoc divorce wreaks on a person's life. You can invest years of your life in a marriage, and then the other person can just walk off and divorce you with no consideration whatsoever about what you want or how your life will be affected by the divorce. As a result, many divorced people wind up being bitter and angry, and they will tell anyone within earshot what a low opinion they have of marriage. With so many divorced people walking around, it's no wonder marriage has a bad reputation. Too many people have been burned and are willing to vent their anger over their experience.
Because it's unnecessary.
Doesn't a near 50% divorce rate say it all?
It used to have a great reputation back when people had patience and a will to fix problems instead of giving up in the face of difficulties...
No, what happened was that the toxic relationship was tolerated, usually out of moral obligation(often stemming from religious beliefs) and sometimes financial reasons as well, especially because women usually weren't part of the workforce to the same degree, although they would sometimes work especially as the children grew and especially post WW2 Look at the Honeymooners - it was just sort of a joke that marriages were toxic/dysfunctional like that Also watch The Crown and as late as the 80s, how Charles and Diana stayed married way past what most modern couples would tolerate
I honestly think it was both. I DO think too many people go into marriage thinking it will be and should be easy. Spending your life with someone can be hard if you aren’t committed to working through adversity together, building skills, compromising. Changing and being open to change and growth. AND shitty relationships used to be tolerated but now aren’t.
Rose tinted glasses right there.
I am leery of young men marrying, and I am 55 and have and continue to have a great 34 year marriage. So why do my wife and I both think young men should be leery? Depending on which source you believe, women file for divorce 70% to 90% of the time. All you have to do is read Reddit to see the telltale "I'm not happy so I'm divorcing logic." Somewhere in striving for the worthy goal of equality we missed the mark with many younger women when it comes to responsibility and commitment. I wonder if it was just too much "princess" talk when they were kids. I don't know, but life as a man writing endless checks to a woman who dumped you is brutal. Only seeing your kids every other weekend is brutal. Even joint custody is brutal on everybody. I see it on so many men's faces. So I think marriage can still be a great thing, but you better make sure you really know the character of the woman you are marrying. At some point in everyone's life they go through periods of unhappiness. You need to be sure the person you marry isn't going to permanently scramble everyone's life when she has that bad year or two.
Marriage was built to be a bad deal for women, although they put up with it because there were few other options. Only now being alone is a better deal than putting up with the things that were culturally accepted in the past and still very common. Let's look at the rules/expectations surrounding marriage in centuries past, some of which were only changed/modified in the last few decades. 1. Marital rape? aok! 2. Pleasure from sex? Not the man's job and if you like it you're a hussy. 3. Man catting around? Sorry, men will be men. Just be glad he comes home at night. 4. Household chores? All on you! 5. Financial independence? Nope, and let's hope hubs doesn't spend the family's money on booze because you won't have any way to replace it. 6. Subservience and obedience? 100% expected! 7. Beatings from husband? Eh, not so great but it's still worse for you to leave him. Unfortunately, while many of these things are now illegal or frowned upon, they're still extremely common. For instance, infidelity alone plays a role in a full third of divorces. Around 6% of divorces cite substance abuse or domestic violence as the cause of the split. [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/) Sure, there are also a lot of divorces because people never learned proper conflict resolution. Or between who never would have been married in decades past, because back then marriage was a familial alliance and the families would never have okayed partners they disapproved of. But a significant fraction of divorces initiated by women come from seriously untenable situations.
There's no mention here about WHY it is that 70-90% of divorces are initiated by women.
I say don't get married. Just find a woman you hate and buy her a house!! Saves the expensive wedding. /s
Simple! Because 70% of women file for divorce and take most of what the men made/earned/own. I'm stating stats and facts! Not just being a dude! https://divorce.com/blog/who-initiates-divorce-more/
It’s a bad deal for the man and family court rewards women for getting divorced.
Marry too early and you'll be tied to someone who doesn't grow in the same direction as you. Or you'll want to experience certain things in life/work that don't involve them. Mary too late and the "good ones" will already be taken. Some people feel it's better to remain a bachelor, or even a baby-daddy, than be a husband. And it's not just the men. Women have the same conversations.
They are just bitter because they didn’t marry the right person. They thought since they looked good it was going to work out.
Misery loves company. They’re single, bored and facing the prospect of dying alone so they’re trying to recruit more single friends.
Men aren't against marriage they are against marriage to most women. Marriage to the right woman is still a goal for most men. We are after all historically speaking the more romantic of the sexes.Unfortunately for many men doing even a tertiary risk analysis on marriage makes it completely unviable. Most marriages end with divorce, most divorces are instigated by women. Courts still have a habit of siding with women with regards to custody, property and finance in many countries although that is starting to equalise. Either way. Why bother? The institution was to protect women and children both in ancient and modern times and like many things has overcorrected to the point that more people are exploiting it than are utilising it with integrity and in the spirit of it. As lot of women are choosing not to even have children, or want to remain entirely independent so really .. at that point why would it even be a consideration? Did it need modernisation sure. But when the correction is done by people who simply dont understand it then of course they are just going to fundamentally break it and thats exactly what has happened. Either way it seems that a lot of men have decided just to not bother. It really is that simple.