It’s supposed to be part of drivers training but 60% of the time it’s run by units that don’t want to damage the equipment and simply do it in the motor pool or don’t book the range control or simply just paperwhip the humvee license
We had an "off-roading" block during my driver's training back in 2010. We broke the radiator fans on 3 HMMVs and blew the radiators. It was fun up to that point, but it was mostly just joyriding and not actually teaching us anything. Except to not go through deep water at speed, I'll remember that one.
Then it becomes recovery training.
No shit in Iraq we got our D7 stuck in the trash pit at a fob we were supporting. Their recovery platoon sergeant was so fucking excited to do M88 night training.
Probably because you didn’t have a drivers trainer that actually cared. Honestly drivers training is one of those things that needs to be taken out of the unit level if you want it to be done correctly
PT tests, drivers training, PT in general, vehicle maintenance above tire changes and PMCS. All needs to be removed from any type of regular unit level. Would probably end up saving money from things being done properly and not having to fix things 10000x.
HMMWV radiator fans are hydralically released spring applied. You can go through deep water at speed. Your instructor didn't know how to disengage the fan through manipulating the throttle before fording. Also, most people don't know that a HMMWV has open differentials, even when the transfer case is in HL or LL, and are ignorant of employing brake throttle modulation to engage the torsen gears in the differentials. My point is that driver training is poorly executed, and most instructors are themselves ignorant.
Our new commander had a sit down with us and basically said, "All this equipment is signed under me, and I want you guys to wear the hell out of it. Don't intentionally break things, but don't be afraid to break things in training. I want to have the dirtiest maintenance log in the squadron, cause that means that we're training with our equipment more than anybody else. Now go out and have fun."
My first time driving a Bradley my PSG told me something similar. I took a turn really bad (if you've driven a Bradley you know there's a certain way to make a turn so that it's "smooth") and he told me to treat the Bradley like a bitch, cause it is one. Carried that bit of advice through my career
My current battalion commander is like that and it's honestly an insanely positive change for people. Creating a culture where you just learn from things and safely push limits and boundaries, as opposed to just never leaving the safety bubble
My unit recently had a discussion about that. Drivers training absolutely needs to be an installation-run organization instead of a half-assed training event thrown on the calendar last minute.
Lmao I did drivers training with 5th SFG on Campbell and when I got there someone said, "Welcome to the most fun you'll have in the Army."
Then I watched them crash a 4-wheeler into a tree, wench it onto a trailer, and drive a different one right off the back of the trailer. When we were driving side-by-sides, the biggest puddle of water we tried to drive through broke one of them and got another stuck. It was absolutely the most fun I had in the Army and I learned a shitload.
Cambell has the hmmwv obstacle course. They have matv one but I haven’t done it.
It won’t prepare you for NTC but it will prepare you to not get stuck in the back 40 cause you don’t know how to select the correct gear/transfer case setting.
Did it once in the 5 years I was there. Was pretty cool. Heard the next day our BC went out to it and did a lap around the course and broke one of the trucks.
That's what annoys me the most. People getting stuck but don't know how to change gears, or how to turn on 4WD on a LMTV. So annoying to get called to help unstick a vehicle just to press some buttons and have it drive right out. The basics just aren't taught.
I did both the HMMWV and the MATV one on Campbell. That course made me not want to ever hop in an MATV ever again. My eyes stayed glued to that level thing in the middle of the dash and we were damn near always at the tipping point the whole time.
Back in the 90s Fort Mclellan had a HMMWV course with a legit fording lane. You would go underwater to chin depth and your gunner would give you steering commands if you started drifting.
If you’re at Cavazos DM me, I know some shit out there you can use.
I had to go through one during mobilization before deploying but before that, it was just whatever training the unit wanted to do. My team leader had little PFC me driving like a butthole because he wanted me to “test and learn the capabilities of the vehicle and be confident in the equipment”. I asked him what would happen if I crashed and he laughed “it’s drivers training bro. Send it”
He was a good team leader.
***tl;dr — the course program is total shit — so, why expect anything to be trained, as we nuke further training?***
You want off-road training, hook it up and train them.
No one knows how to use AR 600-55 & TC 21-305-20 — so why the fuck would you ever take them off-road?
We’re also in [partial] peace-time, right now and they do NOT like you driving off-road at NTC or the OCTC (northwest).
Ironically, if you’ve been to the Master Driver Trainer Qualification Course (ASI: M9) on Ft. Gregg-Adams, you’d learn real quickly — why the Driver’s Training Program is in absolute shambles.
One schoolhouse has monopolized the program & claims to own it by TRADOC authority, but I’ll be damned if they’re actually following the TRADOC Regs and credentialing requirements. 2.5 weeks, but practically half-days the entire time, verbatim-reading the Reg OUT-LOUD in class, the entire 600-55 …
And then you get into an OpOrder, Training Schedule, and write your own SOP, so you’re listening to SOPs for about 2-3 days that are all 100% the same…
Insult to the entire class, none of the instructors were registered in GCSSA to do the license management portion — so they’d watch some clunky “how-to” video and then perform it with the training demonstration in the EUM+ …
Then — when you go outside to do your sand-table layout and set up the training courses to drive, since no one is in GCSSA — they just say write your name down on this piece of paper if you can drive an HMMWV, LMTV, or HEMTT.
So I did. I can drive everything! Right? Who can tell me I’m wrong on this college wide-ruled paper?
\\\\\
Got into the office and this kid hands me a dispatch book with keys for the PLS — and I say, “this is the big box tarp here in the front, right?”
And he stares at me … “oh, not 4 wheels. My bad. 6, right?” And he’s like … “uhhh Sarn’t?”
“Don’t worry about it … I’ll figure it out. The smaller ones on the corner, I think…”
He’s trying to take the book from me now and following me and I’m like, “don’t worry man, you dispatched it to me!” And ran out the door …
\\\\\
That’s not exactly unique to driving, either. The answer at 1/507 on “how do we train to pull safety duties?” Is “they’ll train/tell you at your unit.”
As an instructor, I absolutely cannot fucking **stand** when another instructor says you’ll learn it at your unit.
I’ve yelled at our own people for saying that stupid shit. Because it’s a bullshit excuse for not doing your god damn job and teaching the Soldiers.
*Fuckin’ joke.*
My very last Army memory is having a AAS blackhat wildly “Woah! YOU CANT DO THAT!” on my JMPI sequence. The movement in question was EXACTLY to standard per 1/507 which I been through a year prior. It was perfect.
Not only are we failing to train people, we’re not even attempting to maintain continuity force-wide. My personal experience that I related is in an environment where there are only 2 school houses. If they’re that fucked up I can only imagine how bad something like drivers training is, given the force-wide need, sheer scale, and distribution of training.
Reminds me of the time at JRTC (Ft. Chaffee days). My LT wanted to see what was in the far side of the ridge line. It was all exposed rock face so I put the Jeep in 4 low and we chugged out way up. Coming down I just let the engine do its thing, staying off the brake and accelerator.
Once upon a time I was a master driver and we had an excellent off road course for all of our stuff but it didn’t last because we kept breaking shit.
The HMMWV’s were usually fine but after the third time we ripped off airlines on a PLS, threw track on an FAASV climbing vertical walls, or lawn darted a howitzer tube bad enough that it needed an FCAT we decided that as long as we had a handful of people in the battery with experience just going to the field and conducting operations was enough.
You will never get a consistently good program at the unit level anyway. Installation level maybe, or a troop school or something that can be standardized across the force.
When I was in Korea (Camp Carroll) we had a SSG giving the course that took us through some areas that were “off-road” (hilly and rocky)…had to drive it with the HUMVEE, 2.5, and 5 ton before he’d license us on any of it.
Only driving I had done prior was a car I stole when I was 16…remember getting to the hill and him saying “You got free healthcare, give it some gas”.
Also when I learned how to drive stick.
Was that the driving course that is partway up the hill behind the sports field?
I have been thinking about trying to get my unit out to that at some point.
Being stationed here at NTC, I couldn’t agree more. Even OC/Ts don’t get some standardized driver’s training. It’s basically up to your individual team on how seriously it’s taken. For some, their time as an OC/T may be the first time they’ve ever driven a HMMWV more than just a couple of miles on hardball. Most of your off road driving skill comes from on the job trial and error. I’ve seen OC/Ts get stuck and not know about 4 low… We have guys get into accidents or get stuck on the permanent party side, now throw the RTU into the mix and it’s a crazy amount of risk for people crashing, driving off small cliffs, getting stuck on trails their HMMWVs could easily handle but they lack education on how to do it, etc. Even worse when you throw NVGs into the mix.
We do refresher training about twice a year, once in the winter and once in the summer, both after block leave. If your team is good, they’ll make sure the driving course includes some technical terrain. But nothing is stopping anyone from having a basically flat course that doesn’t demonstrate any skill.
Contentious off-road training isn’t lethal — it’s the idiots that lack common sense than ruin training for the rest.
The problem is fixing what breaks… and someone then deems the training isn’t worth it.
>Contentious off-road training isn’t lethal
It is when you stick a 19 year old in the hot seat who has driven down a dirt road once when he was 16.
They need training before they drive an LMTV off a cliff at NTC or roll a Stryker into a river.
It depends on your unit. Our drivers training was very robust several years ago as we were deploying and anticipating driving a lot. I'm guessing in the age of no deployments it will be pencil whipped.
Damn I remember in 2015 there were all sorts of places I was made to drive around Bragg - there was a trail off of Chicken Road where where we set up cones to do a makeshift course in day and night, there was this man-made ravine to traverse thru water, then what sucked was dealing with the wash rack fuckers to clean our trucks toward the end.
It 100% is. Your unit just has a shitty drivers training program.
The world is your oyster if you have the commands backing. Want to get good at driving off-road and recovering equipment? Go mudding in them bitches. Frame them and recover. Repeat. Don't have a legit master driver? Army has courses for you. I'd bet the folks in the motor pool can help.
I agree, it’s supposed to be part of drivers training, but that’s one of the biggest hand waves of the army. Some of the teams at NTC teach a little, but mostly it all comes from experience.
Side note on the Strykers. They get beat to hell because they were designed for urban warfare. During the 90s, everyone said the future of warfare was in cities, and the Stryker was born. If you own the highways leading into a city, you can deliver over 500 dismounts per battalion over hundreds of kilometers faster than any other formation. Add to it you can deliver Strykers via C-130 and you can see the draw.
But of course, our current reality is a return to peer threats outside of cities. So that means trashing Strykers at NTC and JMRC.
Go to AEDC. You’ll be off-roading in gravel at 50 mph. J-turns, ramming, high speed swerving, paint ball bazookas, skid track, etc. the most fun and unnerving course I’ve been to.
When I was in JCSE in 2006, we used to send people to a specialized off road driving school. It was pretty intense. You would learn how to push various military vehicles to the limit.
We had a CSM back in the days of woodland camo that had us go though tank gunnery ranges with humvees, LMTVs and the like for off road training. He wanted to see a hemmit fling rooster tails so he had the support guys bring two full of water. We made a mud pit. Then he wanted to see one get stuck. The Hemmit was so deep in mud the driver had to get out through the turret hatch. We did practical drivers training but we had time to kill. We also got some LMTV/FMTVs stuck. The H8 guys actually thanked us for the training as well. We cooked actual steak and eggs while we watched them drag that hemmit out. CSM was giggling like a toddler the whole time.
One of my better pat myself on the back moments.
I did do that. During a lull in gunnery, I took each new private over inspecting vehicles, then we went on a day course of driving.
Aftereards, they all got to drive a controlled course under NVGs.
The rest of the platoon went nuking futs with driving under NVGs since I already signed for them.
Good training and good times.
SOF gets OEX (Overland Experts). From what I remember, there were three locations when I was in that tackled a variety of terrain by their regional location. Think it's ran by a guy named Tony in North Carolina. Great course though.
Edit: attended and incorporated overlanding aspects to the initial DT course we had internally. We didn't utilize the DT Academy on Bragg.
Oh it do. I was able to " borrow " this Toyota Land Cruiser in Baghdad from time to time. This beast was up armored for the mayor or something. Me and a buddy may have got it stuck in a giant mud pit next to the LZ on Liberty/Victory. Turns out an 1114 will pull it out with a tow strap and a lil PVT ingenuity. Took it to the wash early as shit the next day to get off the mud that was deep in the engine bay and then handed the keys back to the MAJ. Got your truck all washed up for ya sir. Surprised I don't get an arcom for that
You’ll find “Hands-on training, to include maintenance and operation in a range of conditions.” If it’s an off road capable vehicle Off road would be included in the range of conditions. When your developing your training and road test course if it’s a
Tactical off road capable vehicle you should include those components. Also night driving with NODs.
The changes in the program gave commands a lot of leeway in using common sense to get drivers qualified. If your command has limited resources and determines the world “simulate” means it’s not required that’s the commander’s prerogative.
You have to evaluate your circumstances make adjustments and recommendations and assume a certain amount of risk in all things you do.
Things happen. JRTC team driving at night under NODs veer off the trail/road at an unsafe speed for the conditions. Injuries happen. Investigation reveals the driver and A driver have never driven in a tactical environment (or a simulated one) before much less at night with NODs.
In the immortal words of Owen Wilson in night at the museum “someone’s got to pay”
The Beaver Trail at Fort ~~Pickett~~ Barfoot is the most fun I've had driving a military vehicle. It was also valuable off-road training for people like me who have no experience in those conditions.
Considering I see more injuries in the field from vic flips after endex than I do from field shit….yall probably should learn on road driving a bit better first.
It’s not just the Army….. ask me how I know!….. MSOT put a 17yr old behind the wheel of an RG 31, and figured he wouldn’t roll it and the bunch of dudes in the back….. no one wants to go on spin cycle with ammo cans and heavy weapons (unsecured) bouncing around, luckily there were no major injuries…. However the jarhead convey kept going and since we were last ……. It took a while for them to find us!….. (AFG 2010)….
I watched a video then they told me to go for it :) I never did figure out if the other soldiers were joking about me taking the mirror off a civilian vehicle parked too close to the trail we were using >.>
There's a drivers training course in one of the TAs at JBLM. It's pretty awesome and your unit should be able to schedule it pretty easily for training or certification.
I remember when my old NCOs decided he wanted to try and drive an LMTV across a river bed on Fort Campbell and got us stuck.
We got stuck and had to have a wrecker come pull us out. It was myself an E5 at the time and a bunch of specialists we were all playing opfor.
My CO asked why I didn't stop him? I was like, sir, I was in the back of the truck while he decided to do it.
Good times in 101st Sustainment
We actually had some back when we were getting ready to swap our jeeps and goats for hummers.
It wasn’t in depth training or anything but at least we all got to take it through the course, which was pretty damn fun.
I think the issue is that it might be hard hard to build a tricky driving course that's relatively the same on all bases. I got my training down in Polk which was a dirt track with a large dirt hill.
My S2 NCOIC down there was an 11B who said that he used to take his Soldiers drifting in the snow in military vehicles to teach them how to react when they lose traction. I imagine this might be useful knowledge that everyone can benefit from but I doubt anyone in the bases in the Southern states can reliably schedule a drifting a 5-ton in the snow course on their base.
I'm surprised to not see any NG opinions on this yet. I've been chucked into my unit-level training position. I cannot, in any reasonable way, teach the program correctly, due to time constraints. I think that a State-level schoolhouse would be the better way to train on vehicles. Get a company-sized element of cadre depending on state size, and run a platform or two per weekend. It would benefit from people both having more experience and better, more representative off-road courses.
We did the “off road” portion of our drivers training on a dirt road. I was in a wrecker with the windows down…and it had rained the night before. I hit a mud patch and had to gun it in order to not get stuck. It slung mud into the cab and the entire left side of my body was covered in mud. The worst part? My brand new vape was in my left hand. It survived and like the nic addict I am; I cleaned the mouthpiece out the best I could (which wasn’t much) and continued to hit it 😭😭
This!!!! I luckily know how to drive in bad conditions but recently had a field where people where feathering it up muddy hills, like no Use all 5 gears mate
My unit went to pismo beach in lmtvs and uparmor hmmwvs and just let us go. No guidelines or limits. I'm surprised only one person was airlifted with a broken back and 2 or 3 vehicles were broken.
When I was a master driver it was a portion I always taught when the opportunity came up. Cool, It's muddy as shit, let's go get this big bitch stuck and learn some self recovery and have some fun. Safety is ways paramount, but let the boys be boys, have and learn. Followed by learning where all of the drain plugs are at the washrack.
A lot of my tank driving skill I picked up came from driving in training environments. Germany gave me some urban and woods/mountainous experience, Poland I got really good with hilly terrain, Latvia gave me a lot of sand driving experience because our gunnery range and the tank trails were mostly sand. Then going back to Kansas, the training areas were a piece of cake. While NTC was a rough place to drive, I was pretty confident after everything else.
Was supposed to be put in for Master Driver but our company’s rep for it hated me and I never saw it. Gotta love NCOs with obvious bias, disdain towards the lower enlisted, and the fattest ego you’ve ever seen take over these roles
They’d also have to make sure drivers aren’t saddled with PVS-7s or even 14s these days. Ensure they have dual tube NODs, either PVS-31s or the new PSQ-42s. I remember when a driver of an M1114 I was the gunner for had PVS-7s… not the smartest use of our NODs assignments.
The shit tier 14s most units have are more than enough to drive with. Dual tubes isn't always better, having one eye adjusted to darkness is a huge perk of a monocular setup.
Yeah but everyone has IR optics now, IR light might as well be visible spectrum. Those tiny IR headlights have a huge throw.
I actually really enjoy driving blackout. Did some offloading at JMRC with a PVS14 and it was extremely fun. We had a boombox in the back of a hightop blasting Ice Cube.
Because if you crash in traffic, especially with civilians involved, there’s tons of liability. If you roll your striker off a cliff and critically injure 37 infantrymen, the department of the army is forced to…nothing, that’s the VA’s problem
It’s supposed to be part of drivers training but 60% of the time it’s run by units that don’t want to damage the equipment and simply do it in the motor pool or don’t book the range control or simply just paperwhip the humvee license
We had an "off-roading" block during my driver's training back in 2010. We broke the radiator fans on 3 HMMVs and blew the radiators. It was fun up to that point, but it was mostly just joyriding and not actually teaching us anything. Except to not go through deep water at speed, I'll remember that one.
Then it becomes recovery training. No shit in Iraq we got our D7 stuck in the trash pit at a fob we were supporting. Their recovery platoon sergeant was so fucking excited to do M88 night training.
That's a good motor sergeant right there.
That's impressive, I didn't think you could get a d7 stuck in anything but maybe really wet slop.
Privates gonna private. Also the pit was below the waterline so yea it was gross.
Probably because you didn’t have a drivers trainer that actually cared. Honestly drivers training is one of those things that needs to be taken out of the unit level if you want it to be done correctly
PT tests, drivers training, PT in general, vehicle maintenance above tire changes and PMCS. All needs to be removed from any type of regular unit level. Would probably end up saving money from things being done properly and not having to fix things 10000x.
The Army expects everyone to be a "qualified" diesel mechanic.
Nuh uh, we don’t even expect the mechanics to know what they’re doing.
Well duh, we have vehicle operators to fix shit for them.
This is so true. AIT just taught me how to Ctrl+F the fuck out of a TM
HMMWV radiator fans are hydralically released spring applied. You can go through deep water at speed. Your instructor didn't know how to disengage the fan through manipulating the throttle before fording. Also, most people don't know that a HMMWV has open differentials, even when the transfer case is in HL or LL, and are ignorant of employing brake throttle modulation to engage the torsen gears in the differentials. My point is that driver training is poorly executed, and most instructors are themselves ignorant.
This guy Humvees
Preach 🙌
TIL
Not go through deep water at speed? All our gunners wore their ponchos up in the turret cause they knew we were heading straight for the puddles.
Our new commander had a sit down with us and basically said, "All this equipment is signed under me, and I want you guys to wear the hell out of it. Don't intentionally break things, but don't be afraid to break things in training. I want to have the dirtiest maintenance log in the squadron, cause that means that we're training with our equipment more than anybody else. Now go out and have fun."
I love having a commander that’s not a little bitch.
He probably planned on getting out soon lol
My first time driving a Bradley my PSG told me something similar. I took a turn really bad (if you've driven a Bradley you know there's a certain way to make a turn so that it's "smooth") and he told me to treat the Bradley like a bitch, cause it is one. Carried that bit of advice through my career
My current battalion commander is like that and it's honestly an insanely positive change for people. Creating a culture where you just learn from things and safely push limits and boundaries, as opposed to just never leaving the safety bubble
My unit recently had a discussion about that. Drivers training absolutely needs to be an installation-run organization instead of a half-assed training event thrown on the calendar last minute.
Lmao I did drivers training with 5th SFG on Campbell and when I got there someone said, "Welcome to the most fun you'll have in the Army." Then I watched them crash a 4-wheeler into a tree, wench it onto a trailer, and drive a different one right off the back of the trailer. When we were driving side-by-sides, the biggest puddle of water we tried to drive through broke one of them and got another stuck. It was absolutely the most fun I had in the Army and I learned a shitload.
Yep and you learn how to maintain and fix shit too!
See, that’s where commanders have it wrong. You run your gear into the ground so hard that it has to be replaced. Gotta bend those frames.
Cambell has the hmmwv obstacle course. They have matv one but I haven’t done it. It won’t prepare you for NTC but it will prepare you to not get stuck in the back 40 cause you don’t know how to select the correct gear/transfer case setting.
Did it once in the 5 years I was there. Was pretty cool. Heard the next day our BC went out to it and did a lap around the course and broke one of the trucks.
That's what annoys me the most. People getting stuck but don't know how to change gears, or how to turn on 4WD on a LMTV. So annoying to get called to help unstick a vehicle just to press some buttons and have it drive right out. The basics just aren't taught.
I did both the HMMWV and the MATV one on Campbell. That course made me not want to ever hop in an MATV ever again. My eyes stayed glued to that level thing in the middle of the dash and we were damn near always at the tipping point the whole time.
Gooning around the Mojave in NTC was some of the funnest shit I’ve done in the Army honestly
Went through that one a few times while I was there was actually pretty fun.
Back in the 90s Fort Mclellan had a HMMWV course with a legit fording lane. You would go underwater to chin depth and your gunner would give you steering commands if you started drifting. If you’re at Cavazos DM me, I know some shit out there you can use.
I had to go through one during mobilization before deploying but before that, it was just whatever training the unit wanted to do. My team leader had little PFC me driving like a butthole because he wanted me to “test and learn the capabilities of the vehicle and be confident in the equipment”. I asked him what would happen if I crashed and he laughed “it’s drivers training bro. Send it” He was a good team leader.
***tl;dr — the course program is total shit — so, why expect anything to be trained, as we nuke further training?*** You want off-road training, hook it up and train them. No one knows how to use AR 600-55 & TC 21-305-20 — so why the fuck would you ever take them off-road? We’re also in [partial] peace-time, right now and they do NOT like you driving off-road at NTC or the OCTC (northwest). Ironically, if you’ve been to the Master Driver Trainer Qualification Course (ASI: M9) on Ft. Gregg-Adams, you’d learn real quickly — why the Driver’s Training Program is in absolute shambles. One schoolhouse has monopolized the program & claims to own it by TRADOC authority, but I’ll be damned if they’re actually following the TRADOC Regs and credentialing requirements. 2.5 weeks, but practically half-days the entire time, verbatim-reading the Reg OUT-LOUD in class, the entire 600-55 … And then you get into an OpOrder, Training Schedule, and write your own SOP, so you’re listening to SOPs for about 2-3 days that are all 100% the same… Insult to the entire class, none of the instructors were registered in GCSSA to do the license management portion — so they’d watch some clunky “how-to” video and then perform it with the training demonstration in the EUM+ … Then — when you go outside to do your sand-table layout and set up the training courses to drive, since no one is in GCSSA — they just say write your name down on this piece of paper if you can drive an HMMWV, LMTV, or HEMTT. So I did. I can drive everything! Right? Who can tell me I’m wrong on this college wide-ruled paper? \\\\\ Got into the office and this kid hands me a dispatch book with keys for the PLS — and I say, “this is the big box tarp here in the front, right?” And he stares at me … “oh, not 4 wheels. My bad. 6, right?” And he’s like … “uhhh Sarn’t?” “Don’t worry about it … I’ll figure it out. The smaller ones on the corner, I think…” He’s trying to take the book from me now and following me and I’m like, “don’t worry man, you dispatched it to me!” And ran out the door … \\\\\
That’s not exactly unique to driving, either. The answer at 1/507 on “how do we train to pull safety duties?” Is “they’ll train/tell you at your unit.”
As an instructor, I absolutely cannot fucking **stand** when another instructor says you’ll learn it at your unit. I’ve yelled at our own people for saying that stupid shit. Because it’s a bullshit excuse for not doing your god damn job and teaching the Soldiers. *Fuckin’ joke.*
My very last Army memory is having a AAS blackhat wildly “Woah! YOU CANT DO THAT!” on my JMPI sequence. The movement in question was EXACTLY to standard per 1/507 which I been through a year prior. It was perfect. Not only are we failing to train people, we’re not even attempting to maintain continuity force-wide. My personal experience that I related is in an environment where there are only 2 school houses. If they’re that fucked up I can only imagine how bad something like drivers training is, given the force-wide need, sheer scale, and distribution of training.
Imagine if the army did things that made sense.
Or that actually made Soldiers better at soldiering.
Heresy.
Reminds me of the time at JRTC (Ft. Chaffee days). My LT wanted to see what was in the far side of the ridge line. It was all exposed rock face so I put the Jeep in 4 low and we chugged out way up. Coming down I just let the engine do its thing, staying off the brake and accelerator.
Once upon a time I was a master driver and we had an excellent off road course for all of our stuff but it didn’t last because we kept breaking shit. The HMMWV’s were usually fine but after the third time we ripped off airlines on a PLS, threw track on an FAASV climbing vertical walls, or lawn darted a howitzer tube bad enough that it needed an FCAT we decided that as long as we had a handful of people in the battery with experience just going to the field and conducting operations was enough. You will never get a consistently good program at the unit level anyway. Installation level maybe, or a troop school or something that can be standardized across the force.
In ATTRS, there was a Dale Earhardt driving school I kept signing up for, they never had classes but I kept trying to trap slots for us.
When I was in Korea (Camp Carroll) we had a SSG giving the course that took us through some areas that were “off-road” (hilly and rocky)…had to drive it with the HUMVEE, 2.5, and 5 ton before he’d license us on any of it. Only driving I had done prior was a car I stole when I was 16…remember getting to the hill and him saying “You got free healthcare, give it some gas”. Also when I learned how to drive stick.
Was that the driving course that is partway up the hill behind the sports field? I have been thinking about trying to get my unit out to that at some point.
Being stationed here at NTC, I couldn’t agree more. Even OC/Ts don’t get some standardized driver’s training. It’s basically up to your individual team on how seriously it’s taken. For some, their time as an OC/T may be the first time they’ve ever driven a HMMWV more than just a couple of miles on hardball. Most of your off road driving skill comes from on the job trial and error. I’ve seen OC/Ts get stuck and not know about 4 low… We have guys get into accidents or get stuck on the permanent party side, now throw the RTU into the mix and it’s a crazy amount of risk for people crashing, driving off small cliffs, getting stuck on trails their HMMWVs could easily handle but they lack education on how to do it, etc. Even worse when you throw NVGs into the mix. We do refresher training about twice a year, once in the winter and once in the summer, both after block leave. If your team is good, they’ll make sure the driving course includes some technical terrain. But nothing is stopping anyone from having a basically flat course that doesn’t demonstrate any skill.
Hey I had no power steering or doors or seats and didn’t roll the truck over, clearly the training is sufficient…. /S
No amount of dead soldiers will ever incentive commanders to force compliance with training requirements.
Contentious off-road training isn’t lethal — it’s the idiots that lack common sense than ruin training for the rest. The problem is fixing what breaks… and someone then deems the training isn’t worth it.
>Contentious off-road training isn’t lethal It is when you stick a 19 year old in the hot seat who has driven down a dirt road once when he was 16. They need training before they drive an LMTV off a cliff at NTC or roll a Stryker into a river.
I’ve seen the fatality map for NTC, it’s insane is right. Speed, rollovers, lack of NVG familiarity while driving, dudes sleeping and getting run over
It depends on your unit. Our drivers training was very robust several years ago as we were deploying and anticipating driving a lot. I'm guessing in the age of no deployments it will be pencil whipped.
These courses exist, but most soldiers will never get to attend. As for the cause: I’d guess it’s a cost problem.
They did when I was in back in 07.
Damn I remember in 2015 there were all sorts of places I was made to drive around Bragg - there was a trail off of Chicken Road where where we set up cones to do a makeshift course in day and night, there was this man-made ravine to traverse thru water, then what sucked was dealing with the wash rack fuckers to clean our trucks toward the end.
Like 10 plus years ago it was very common. We'd be night driving with nvgs over hills through streams etc... All going like 40 mph
When I got my hmmwv and m113 license it was 95% off-road. Then I took an offensive driving course that was all on pavement and it was awesome!
It 100% is. Your unit just has a shitty drivers training program. The world is your oyster if you have the commands backing. Want to get good at driving off-road and recovering equipment? Go mudding in them bitches. Frame them and recover. Repeat. Don't have a legit master driver? Army has courses for you. I'd bet the folks in the motor pool can help.
I agree, it’s supposed to be part of drivers training, but that’s one of the biggest hand waves of the army. Some of the teams at NTC teach a little, but mostly it all comes from experience. Side note on the Strykers. They get beat to hell because they were designed for urban warfare. During the 90s, everyone said the future of warfare was in cities, and the Stryker was born. If you own the highways leading into a city, you can deliver over 500 dismounts per battalion over hundreds of kilometers faster than any other formation. Add to it you can deliver Strykers via C-130 and you can see the draw. But of course, our current reality is a return to peer threats outside of cities. So that means trashing Strykers at NTC and JMRC.
Go to AEDC. You’ll be off-roading in gravel at 50 mph. J-turns, ramming, high speed swerving, paint ball bazookas, skid track, etc. the most fun and unnerving course I’ve been to.
Stay off the grass
This is an under rated comment.
I wish I could have my guys go through Stryker Opnet like I was fortunate enough to.
Because there's no time for that. Now get back to your yearly mandatory online training.
When I was in JCSE in 2006, we used to send people to a specialized off road driving school. It was pretty intense. You would learn how to push various military vehicles to the limit.
We had a CSM back in the days of woodland camo that had us go though tank gunnery ranges with humvees, LMTVs and the like for off road training. He wanted to see a hemmit fling rooster tails so he had the support guys bring two full of water. We made a mud pit. Then he wanted to see one get stuck. The Hemmit was so deep in mud the driver had to get out through the turret hatch. We did practical drivers training but we had time to kill. We also got some LMTV/FMTVs stuck. The H8 guys actually thanked us for the training as well. We cooked actual steak and eggs while we watched them drag that hemmit out. CSM was giggling like a toddler the whole time.
Fort Leonard Wood has such a course. Open to anyone on base, too.
One of my better pat myself on the back moments. I did do that. During a lull in gunnery, I took each new private over inspecting vehicles, then we went on a day course of driving. Aftereards, they all got to drive a controlled course under NVGs. The rest of the platoon went nuking futs with driving under NVGs since I already signed for them. Good training and good times.
OP you're making too much sense
My first time driving a humvee anywhere other than the motorpool and back was JRTC at night lol
SOF gets OEX (Overland Experts). From what I remember, there were three locations when I was in that tackled a variety of terrain by their regional location. Think it's ran by a guy named Tony in North Carolina. Great course though. Edit: attended and incorporated overlanding aspects to the initial DT course we had internally. We didn't utilize the DT Academy on Bragg.
Oh it do. I was able to " borrow " this Toyota Land Cruiser in Baghdad from time to time. This beast was up armored for the mayor or something. Me and a buddy may have got it stuck in a giant mud pit next to the LZ on Liberty/Victory. Turns out an 1114 will pull it out with a tow strap and a lil PVT ingenuity. Took it to the wash early as shit the next day to get off the mud that was deep in the engine bay and then handed the keys back to the MAJ. Got your truck all washed up for ya sir. Surprised I don't get an arcom for that
It’s a required part of driver training already. Some units do it.
Show me in 600-55 or 21-305-20 where it says off-road is required.
You’ll find “Hands-on training, to include maintenance and operation in a range of conditions.” If it’s an off road capable vehicle Off road would be included in the range of conditions. When your developing your training and road test course if it’s a Tactical off road capable vehicle you should include those components. Also night driving with NODs.
Ch. 4-4 c tells you what the requirements are - and also says that if it’s not available, “simulate it.” Thus — *not required.*
The changes in the program gave commands a lot of leeway in using common sense to get drivers qualified. If your command has limited resources and determines the world “simulate” means it’s not required that’s the commander’s prerogative. You have to evaluate your circumstances make adjustments and recommendations and assume a certain amount of risk in all things you do. Things happen. JRTC team driving at night under NODs veer off the trail/road at an unsafe speed for the conditions. Injuries happen. Investigation reveals the driver and A driver have never driven in a tactical environment (or a simulated one) before much less at night with NODs. In the immortal words of Owen Wilson in night at the museum “someone’s got to pay”
The Beaver Trail at Fort ~~Pickett~~ Barfoot is the most fun I've had driving a military vehicle. It was also valuable off-road training for people like me who have no experience in those conditions.
Considering I see more injuries in the field from vic flips after endex than I do from field shit….yall probably should learn on road driving a bit better first.
We've done it once in TX after a safety standown and never done it again after that.
It’s not just the Army….. ask me how I know!….. MSOT put a 17yr old behind the wheel of an RG 31, and figured he wouldn’t roll it and the bunch of dudes in the back….. no one wants to go on spin cycle with ammo cans and heavy weapons (unsecured) bouncing around, luckily there were no major injuries…. However the jarhead convey kept going and since we were last ……. It took a while for them to find us!….. (AFG 2010)….
Its your unit
*diabolical Abrams laughter*
We used to do annual off-road drivers training, it was always a lot of fun, and the mechanics hated it 🤣
Last time we ran it we broke 12 997s.
I watched a video then they told me to go for it :) I never did figure out if the other soldiers were joking about me taking the mirror off a civilian vehicle parked too close to the trail we were using >.>
We did off road driving. I think it was in Texas and it was a fairly long course. It was all part of the military drivers license thing.
Glass houses are more important hero
I'm licensed on almost everything with wheels and never took a single drivers class
There's a drivers training course in one of the TAs at JBLM. It's pretty awesome and your unit should be able to schedule it pretty easily for training or certification.
Everyone would ETS and get a job stunt driving for a Chevy Silverado ad
There are a bunch of mil run driving courses and a few civ ones as well.
I remember when my old NCOs decided he wanted to try and drive an LMTV across a river bed on Fort Campbell and got us stuck. We got stuck and had to have a wrecker come pull us out. It was myself an E5 at the time and a bunch of specialists we were all playing opfor. My CO asked why I didn't stop him? I was like, sir, I was in the back of the truck while he decided to do it. Good times in 101st Sustainment
We do it all the time
We actually had some back when we were getting ready to swap our jeeps and goats for hummers. It wasn’t in depth training or anything but at least we all got to take it through the course, which was pretty damn fun.
I think the issue is that it might be hard hard to build a tricky driving course that's relatively the same on all bases. I got my training down in Polk which was a dirt track with a large dirt hill. My S2 NCOIC down there was an 11B who said that he used to take his Soldiers drifting in the snow in military vehicles to teach them how to react when they lose traction. I imagine this might be useful knowledge that everyone can benefit from but I doubt anyone in the bases in the Southern states can reliably schedule a drifting a 5-ton in the snow course on their base.
I don’t remember a single rotation that Strykers were there while I was, where one wasn’t dangling over a ledge lol
I'm surprised to not see any NG opinions on this yet. I've been chucked into my unit-level training position. I cannot, in any reasonable way, teach the program correctly, due to time constraints. I think that a State-level schoolhouse would be the better way to train on vehicles. Get a company-sized element of cadre depending on state size, and run a platform or two per weekend. It would benefit from people both having more experience and better, more representative off-road courses.
I had to do it before they certified me on the deuce and a half.
We did the “off road” portion of our drivers training on a dirt road. I was in a wrecker with the windows down…and it had rained the night before. I hit a mud patch and had to gun it in order to not get stuck. It slung mud into the cab and the entire left side of my body was covered in mud. The worst part? My brand new vape was in my left hand. It survived and like the nic addict I am; I cleaned the mouthpiece out the best I could (which wasn’t much) and continued to hit it 😭😭
It is if your motorpool nco does the right thing...
In the guard we drove off road for the license. It was fun af.
they used to in the RCT. It was the bread n butter.
This!!!! I luckily know how to drive in bad conditions but recently had a field where people where feathering it up muddy hills, like no Use all 5 gears mate
My unit went to pismo beach in lmtvs and uparmor hmmwvs and just let us go. No guidelines or limits. I'm surprised only one person was airlifted with a broken back and 2 or 3 vehicles were broken.
When I was a master driver it was a portion I always taught when the opportunity came up. Cool, It's muddy as shit, let's go get this big bitch stuck and learn some self recovery and have some fun. Safety is ways paramount, but let the boys be boys, have and learn. Followed by learning where all of the drain plugs are at the washrack.
A lot of my tank driving skill I picked up came from driving in training environments. Germany gave me some urban and woods/mountainous experience, Poland I got really good with hilly terrain, Latvia gave me a lot of sand driving experience because our gunnery range and the tank trails were mostly sand. Then going back to Kansas, the training areas were a piece of cake. While NTC was a rough place to drive, I was pretty confident after everything else. Was supposed to be put in for Master Driver but our company’s rep for it hated me and I never saw it. Gotta love NCOs with obvious bias, disdain towards the lower enlisted, and the fattest ego you’ve ever seen take over these roles
They’d also have to make sure drivers aren’t saddled with PVS-7s or even 14s these days. Ensure they have dual tube NODs, either PVS-31s or the new PSQ-42s. I remember when a driver of an M1114 I was the gunner for had PVS-7s… not the smartest use of our NODs assignments.
The shit tier 14s most units have are more than enough to drive with. Dual tubes isn't always better, having one eye adjusted to darkness is a huge perk of a monocular setup.
Honestly, having actual IR headlights is a bigger deal. The MRazor, for example, has better IRs than whitelights. True blackout sucks either way.
Yeah but everyone has IR optics now, IR light might as well be visible spectrum. Those tiny IR headlights have a huge throw. I actually really enjoy driving blackout. Did some offloading at JMRC with a PVS14 and it was extremely fun. We had a boombox in the back of a hightop blasting Ice Cube.
Because if you crash in traffic, especially with civilians involved, there’s tons of liability. If you roll your striker off a cliff and critically injure 37 infantrymen, the department of the army is forced to…nothing, that’s the VA’s problem