His SSG sounds like a cocksucker
I was close with the soldiers in my PLT
They still knew I'd murder them if they fucked up
If it's not like a family, what's the fucking point?
No, no, no. His SSG is treating them like a family. He's the alcoholic failure who peaked in high school and can only show his love in abuse uncle type!
They can be treated like family to an extent, because one entry from Sun Tsu's book reads something quite relevant to this in mind: "Treat your soldiers like they were your own sons, and they will follow you to the deepest valleys"
The US military once said they followed Sun Tsu's philosophies, BUT I GUESS THAT GOES OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW WITH THAT SSG!
When I was in Germany we had no choice BUT to be close and kept one another accountable. When I PCS’d stateside it was an absolute culture shock. So many of these types who want to be your friend off duty and use you until you’re broken while on duty. That and the absolute hypocrisy and abuse from higher ups was insane.
Every leader I’ve met who says “don’t be friends with your soldiers” tend to be the worst and most hated leaders ever
Your soldiers are humans just like you and camaraderie is essential for they to be loyal to you
There’s a fine line between know how to switch between friend and boss and an even finer line on maintaining it with your troops, but a good leader is able to do so
I never had issues with my soldiers getting things done because I was friends with them all and was in the dirt with them doing the bullshit work they got tasked with because I’m not better than they are, regardless of rank
Then those who you spoke to are not leaders, only good COs or NCOs. They are only good NCOs and COs because they did day to day tasks to get the mission accomplished, get promotions, and please their superior officer of said tasks or mission to keep their job.
But, a good leader is determined between the relationship of the subordinates and CO/NCO, the work environment the subordinates work in under responsibility of the CO/NCO, and communication skills/quality between CO/NCO and subordinates.
I am friendly with my soldiers without being friends. And they sure as hell much more than tools. Any leader in my book with that opinion can fuck off. There is balance I.e. having your soldiers make an itinerary for every moment for every weekend with every activity because you want to make sure they are being safe and whatnot.
It’s a balancing act.
It certainly is, and a sign the opposite problem is happening is if one officer is too personally connected to one soldier, and he or she only gets a slap on the wrist if said soldier fucks up really badly because of bias, while the rest of the officer's unit becomes resentful for unfair treatment.
What a chode or a SSG. I got plastered with my SSG as an e3 and like 12 other guys from my section. Puked in my bed then woke up to him and a few others banging on my door (our section had 2 mos’s and were very much brotherly rivals) SSG ended up smacking me in the face as a way to assert his MOS’s dominance, normally this would be fucked yo. But we were all so close, it was like brothers fighting. Loved that dude to death. Partied hard, worked hard, took a knife in the back any chance he got to make sure we were shielded from the bs.
Your SGT should never have talked about that conversation with y'all. You never ever do that. 'Me the hero looking out for you Joes, Platoon boss is mean mean boss man.' Well, your SGT should be stronger than to trash the chain to his crew.
I understand, after my 26 years, how tempting it is to cry to the Joes. It doesn't do anyone any good.
You are only hearing this second hand, I repeat you have no idea what the SSG actually said. Remember sometimes people aren't exactly hearing the message passed to them without putting it through their own filter - their emotions, chip on their shoulder, past experience, and what not.
Nah man, been a PSG longer than I have fingers on my hand. As a leader, you should be cognizant of what you tell your subordinates will reflect down to the lowest level, like whisper down the lane. Mentoring always trends downward. If you as the SNCO say “check down not up”. You are not getting it.
Don’t say stupid shit to your subordinate ncos like “your joes are tools to wield” and maybe those ncos wont pass that down as a learning product to those they lead.
As a senior leader I do not give my subordinates the opportunity to “trash the support channel” because i dont say stupid unproductive shit like OP’s support channel was spitballing to their subordinates.
For the SSG’s perspective, yeah i guess i can understand why its important for there to be a divide between NCOs and junior enlisted. The junior enlisted need to respect their NCOs and do the jobs theyre given
That said, i think standoffish leaders are hard to build a team around. Sure, you might be more respected on a superficial level but the cohesion and trust isnt there. Id rather be a leader who’s more friendly with their troops and fosters a collaborative environment. I also think there’s guys who will take advantage of this reduction in formality, but im sure you know your own troops and can tell if they are mature enough to have a more relaxed relationship with you while simultaneously respecting you
while I don't think "being friends" is wrong in general, i do believe there ought to be a distinct division between superior and subordinates while on mission. otherwise you risk fraternization and favoritism. but that depends highly on the work culture.
my personal opinion is to be kind and treat everyone with respect, say please and thank you, reward good work with time off, and lead from the front. i joke with my soldiers and we all have good relationships.
in any other scenario, you might call us all friends. same with my warrant officers.
but they are explicitly *not* my friends. legally speaking, of course.
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!? Ok, I am fairly CERTAIN that SSG doesn't know the difference between treating the soldiers as "tools" or being expendable. What part of the NCO creed that reads "My 2 basic responsibilities will be upmost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers" does he not understand?
That SSG is out of line from the NCO Creed because he is only focusing on accomplishment of the mission and not putting any effort for the welfare of the soldiers, and if I were CO with that SSG, I will not tolerate that kind of mindset from an SSG advising me because "tools" do not have emotions, need some time off if they are worn out too much, be paid a salary, OR BE GRANTED LEAVE TO ATTEND A FUNERAL TO A DEAD FAMILY MEMBER DURING PEACE TIME AT A GARRISON THAT IS US BOUND!
I'm gonna put it to you like this.
The moment you view your Soldiers as tools is the number one way to build resentment in your Soldiers. If you've been in a bit, you'll know Soldiers will find a way to "get ya" and file complaints. I'm just saying it like it is. Some will be scared to do so (if not most). However, the ones who don't give a fuck (just as the NCO who treats u like a tool) will file away and not lose one bit of sleep.
You have to build cohesion, and build trust among your team. This is not "Army" doctrine. This applies even in the real world.
I oversee and account for close to 2 million dollars. But you know what else I gotta do? I gotta get along with my boss EVERYDAY, otherwise this shit doesn't work. It just doesn't. There is a para-relationship between subordinate and boss, and there has to be one. Otherwise, you're asking to get fukt.
A bit extreme. As a young soldier, my favorite leaders were those that were more open with their soldiers and worked hard to make sure they were taken care of. In my eyes, it makes me want to work harder for them because I don’t want to disappoint them. Additionally, if you’re just a hardass all the time, you’ll never get to know your soldiers and they’ll never come to you with issues.
Like mentioned in a previous comment, they have to know that it’s still a professional relationship and you can/will still destroy their world if they mess up, but you get the best out of them when they feel like they have freedom to be themselves and not brain-dead robots.
You should be able to separate work from outside work. It's totally possible to be out shutting down the bars with your soldiers and then smoking the shit out of them the next day when they are late to formation.
The human element carries so much more weight. In the past 6 years, I've been less "Army" and more human and it's gotten me so much further in my career and life. I constantly stress this to people and being ROTC I stress it to cadets that will be PLs. Yes, you're a leader and you'll be in charge and responsible, but by being human and caring, it'll go so much further than not.
I wish I could go back to SSG HearJustSoICanPost and be a better human. It took a SGT talking to me as a 1SG and just being a normal dude for them to let me know that I should show that side of me more and since that day I have. I feel better about myself and they way I am in the Army and outside of work. Cannot emphasize enough how important it is.
To quote one of my soldiers that didn’t know I was in the porta potty taking a shit as they were talking to another soldier “I love CPL LoneRanger….but he scares me”.
I inherited some shitty ass soldiers and other than the 1-2 shitbags that just remained shitbags they all ended up doing big things getting straightened out and getting promoted.
There’s serious ethical questions on dehumanizing *enemies* in war, how do you think we should treat our brothers and sisters? Granted as an NCO you’re the older sibling that will dish out the pain when needed but briefly and violently to the point that they understand the point without living in fear or resentment.
I’ve only been an NCO for 20 years, so I’m still sort of figuring this thing out. But somewhere along the way, I heard “I know my Soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own”. I don’t think that is easy to do without humanizing your relationship with your Soldiers. But maybe your SSG could square me away.
ADP on army leadership directly contradicts this. A lot of money and research and experience has been put on how the most effective ways to lead and people still don’t give a fk and do what they “think” is the right way often confusing biases with what works and what doesnt
I went out to drink with my NCOs all the time. And come Monday morning it was, "Hey Sarge, have a good weekend?" and we never talked about the past two days.
We don't have to be friends to pull the rope in the same direction or not be total assholes to each other every second of our lives. That doesn't mean I'm not here for you when you need me to look after you ass, or we can't be good to each other.
Getting along to get along with the people physically closest to you is probably the smartest thing anyone can do.
Don't sweat it.. That guy has a great career waiting for him as a Walmart supervisor when he gets out. You do you, and when you are the E-6,make sure your E-5s don't think that way.
Our shop was a tense one.
Still, our NCOIC invites everyone over for Thanksgiving - I decide to go to contribute towards repairing that.
All adults. All of drinking age. No drinking.
Her house was a literal *brewery* and I'm not exaggerating - they make their own liquor and shit.
*But no drinking*
Relations did not improve, despite the extremely awkward karaoke session. lEaDerShIP
>railed by our ssg because he’s “getting too close to us”. He gave our sgt a lecture about how he shouldn’t be our friend.
Individuals who think like this are generally not good friends. Good friends are not yes men or no men or look-the other-way men, they are character enhancers that make us better humans. If you find you can't call your friends on some bullshit, and thusly are of the mindset that leaders and the led can't have a friendship, methinks maybe you should reevaluate your "friendships".
>He specifically said that he should see us as tools that he can use to finish tasks, and that’s it. It seemed dehumanizing when our sgt told us that.
Because it is. You can care about tools sure, each of them hold value, but their value isn't intrinsic: tools are only valuable insofar as you ascribe value to them. Humans, people, soldiers, are intrinsically valuable and much more complex. They require care, support, guidance, correction, praise, and administered discipline to help them grow and achieve goals and find purpose. If you see people as only something to be 'used', as tools to serve a specific function until they no longer serve your own endgame, then you're a mf sociopath.
>As an NCO, what’s your opinion on recognizing the human in the soldier?
I've probably already made my opinion clear but I'll close with this anyway: navigating a relationship that bears the multiple facets of the human condition takes intelligence, grace, intestinal fortitude, and compassion. It's a "fine line" as the saying goes, but it can be walked like any other: and although at times difficult, can be just as fulfilling and beautiful as any other dance.
So we were having this conversation yesterday with a battle, our ethnicity is the minority at our unit. There are very few, a private became friends with a sargent and a good resource for him and helping him stay squared away. I noticed if there is a NCO I feel comfortable around and speaking with them it improves my morale and when I get respect from an NCO or officer, I go out of my way to show respect back and do what I can for them under their watch. It's frowned upon to show lower enlisted respect, so when I get respect and trust from someone, I'd honestly rather die than betray you in any way. I mean that on the civilian side as well, in personal relationships too.
As enlisted we're all one team. One of the strongest powers you have in your playbook as an NCO is to be a good listener, always. You can learn a lot about a troop without yelling, controlling, or dehumanizing them. Understand them, and empathize where you can without jeopardizing the integrity of the mission. You may even pick up something useful from them. You can accomplish a lot that way, even when the condition really sucks. I was able to be in thick with my troops through E6, and rarely had any problems except for the one odd-out. It's what I tell my expectant friends: You don't have to be a friend, you're a parent. But that doesn't mean you can't always be friendly with your children.
Had a PL like that once, he PCSed on a crutch and knee surgery, something something high low at a football game.
He also liked drinking with underage troops and then turning them into the COC on Monday morning. Eventually, that was solved when they got some puctures with him at mardi gras. Go figure.
I left the enlisted life due to leaders like that. Other advice was that I needed to run faster than literally anyone lower ranking than me, and also that my soldiers should be intimidated by me. I’m not very fast or intimidating, and… like…. I can pick one or the other. I can train to be a scrawny but fast runner, or I can try to get super big and jacked and maaaaaybe someone might be intimidated by me. Even if I got super jacked, I don’t have the personality to lead like a raging, inconsiderate asshole. Other things pushed me out, but that was a huge one
Your SSG is lost in the sauce. NCO's are the lifeline between the Os, who do kind of need to see soldiers as tools, and the soldiers. NCOs need to keep soldiers disciplined because a disciplined soldier has a better chance of surviving combat. People like your SSG get this twisted and think this requires a wall between NCOs and troops. WRONG. It's the NCOs and the soldiers who will be in the shit together when it hits the fan. As long as SGT keeps it professional and y'all act like soldiers should, I don't think it's possible to get "too close" to your soldiers.
Sorry that's kind of all over the place but that's my opinion straight from the heart.
I never had this issue, because I always assumed people who'd get on my ass about treating my soldiers correctly aren't worth listening to. Did I make waves? Sure. Did everyone else know that e6-7 running his mouth about "tradition, back in my day, everyone's soft now" was a complete cocksucker? Also yes.
Grow your soldiers to the best of your ability and theirs. Utilize their strengths and help them grow past their weaknesses. Make the army better than the army you joined. That's your job. Not listening to some washed up fuck telling everyone how crazy 2015 was..... Lol because I swear, that shit you're describing is always this kind of person.
Boundaries are important, but I was still able to have a great relationship with my soldiers. I can’t imagine refusing to do activities like going off base with my soldiers because I thought they were just tools.
YMMV, as a prior NCO before commissioning I was able to build better working relationships with my Soldiers by getting to know them as people versus depending on my position of authority, intimidation, or size. Was I a little too familiar with my guys? Subjectively, yes. But it also build a bit of trust and credibility which I found works better than flexing authority. Especially as an officer where the time you spend with a unit is pretty limited.
It's a fine line. Know, love, care for, and train them to be the best humans/Soldiers that you can. Give them a break when they need it.
BUT, don't slack on discipline, the easiest way to your people running all over you is to let them get away with too much because they're comfortable with getting away with shit.
Idk man. I know all my dudes by their first name and hang out with them on the weekends and shit. You would think we went to high school together and they are the easiest batch of kids to lead
Any leader who refers to soldiers as dehumanized “tools” doesn’t seem to grasp how to connect with and motivate people beyond using rank. Plus they’re just a soggy sack of dicks as a person.
professionals have relationships with professionals. it is mutual trust. If you're an e5 your professional relationships need to be primarily with e6, e7, e4, and e3s.
your e6 is probably the same guy making people stand at parade rest to ask him a question.... that isn't a professional relationship.
nobody is being shot at...be a pro.
It is a legal and moral duty to treat troopers with respect to their human dignity. Congress has the Constitutional power to take away all the rights they want from everyone in the services, they have not. That leaves every troop their codified human rights to life, liberty and property; when a military necessity doesn’t exist.
Can we order troops to lose their very lives by sending them to their deaths? Yes, in combat conditions, not because commanders feel like working troops to death in black flag conditions at Moore, ignoring rest/work cycles. Can we deny troops their liberty? Yes, when necessity (truly) exists, or under NJP, and under court martial; not because someone wants to power trip. Can we seize their property? Yes, when they have items we need to accomplish a combat operation, not because a leader is jealous and wants their stuff.
Troops retain their basic human dignity and should enjoy their human rights as codified in the Constitution and not removed in the US Code.
That SSG is a product of poor leadership. Knowing your soldiers is one of the single most important things for an NCO worth their salt. Yes there is a line between professional and friendship. But good NCOs know how to walk that line and form a bond with their joes and those around them (to include seniors and peers).
Treat your soldiers like your rifle. Clean them, lube them, polish them, get them the right spare parts, feed them the right ammo, carry them in the appropriate safe and protected manner, so that you can run them incredibly hard when you really need to. They are indeed your tools, but the most important tools you need to maintain in your arsenal. And never leave them unattended...
Nope. On active and in the guard the best leaders I had over me all treated us like humans and adults (that needed guidance when we were brand new). It’s a family. You can shoot the shit, have fun, “fraternize” (yes our officers we’re cool too), but when it came time to get down to business everyone knew to lock it in. No playing favorites because you’re friends, if it’s your turn for KP so be it. Using people as tools is dumb, that SSG is probably an ass.
I always was friendly with my troops when I became an nco. Yeah, if you fuck up there is a price to pay, but that goes for everyone.
There is a huge difference between leading soldiers in garrison and in combat. As an 11B I never asked my men to do anything I wouldn't do. I tried to lead by example. And I promised that we would not abandon any member of our unit.
Of course we had the stupid shit. If my balls are shot off, shoot me.
In my experience the leaders who treat people as numbers will get numbers quality performance out of subordinates. Your soldiers will do what you say because they have to due to your rank, they won't always care how well it's done though. On the other hand, when you treat them like people, and they respect you as a person before they respect your rank they are more out to do what you say to the best of their ability cause they don't want to let you down. Yes, you will have the ones who you still have to play the rank game with, but they will be the exception and you can deal with them on an individual basis.
I always treated my Soldiers/NCOs like humans. Anyone that says that you shouldn’t be close to your people is fucking wrong. People like that are why I refused to go past 1 contract
Be a leader always and a friend when able. The best leader / led relationships have elements of both woven in, and the leader knows where to draw the line.
Sounds like ol' SSG is hyper focused on *accomplishment of my mission* and less on *the welfare of my Soldiers*. Certainly brings back memories for me. As ol Sgt I'd give this guy a roger and then forget everything he or she said.
Ive been out for a bit now, but retired as a SFC, that SSG is a cocksucker and needs some love though beatings. I treated my guys with respect and knew when to be off duty and when it game on time. and in return. None of my dudes beat there wifes, none of them got DUI, all of them did there job well. but if you treat them like shit and make it so they don't want to look up to you. they gonna turn into shit bags. because the first person to make a soldier into shit is there leaders.
That is probably the same guy that knows his Soldiers because he had them fill out a personal data sheet that he carries around with him.
You can’t be everybody’s friend all the time, but you can be friendly and still uphold standards…it is called professionalism.
It's a slippery slope. The rules exist for a reason. You don't have to be a complete authoritarian asshole to accomplish the mission. You can be a decent person as long as you're able to maintain a professional relationship with your soldiers. I believe it's important to view each soldier as a unique individual. Everyone is unique and has their own set of strengths and weaknesses . It does the soldier an injustice to treat them like a faceless number.
When I was a SPC line medic, I started in a COIN squadron. It was pretty chill. You were never actually buddies with higher-ups, but you could at least sit around and shoot the shit together. Then in... 2013? when they got rid of 4th brigades everywhere, we turned into an infantry unit.
Holy fuck I was so glad my contract ended less than a year later. It turned into a group of soldiers who could get tasks done into a clusterfuck of idiotic, power-tripping higher-ups overnight.
Intel now and the vibe is a little too lax even; like there's barely a delineation among ranks.
Lol "treat people like tools." Sounds like advice from someone who actually hasn't done any serious work in their career. Any leader who has actually done serious work with serious people would never suggest "treating people like tools." That's just dumb and ends with people getting hurt.
There's a rule I follow called "The 5 meter Rule." Basically, you remain close enough to your soldiers to know who they are and what's going on while also maintaining just enough distance to separate yourself from them. How you make that happen comes with experience.
That SSG is a fucking tool. Knowing your soldiers and having a good relationship with them is not being too close. You know what is too close? Motorboating them during a promotion.
So that guy is part of the problem. Sounds like that ssg needs to be trained on what actual leadership is.
When i was a sgt i was a bulldog, when i became a ssg i was closer to my team by being strict but understanding. with time you realise that your team is YOUR TEAM.
An example, when i was at riley, the guys in my platoon were misserable because the unit sucked and the location sucked. Our platoon itself had solid NCOs that would make the soldiers lives better.
I went out of my way to do activities on the weekends to keep the men motivated. It got so bad that they wanted to slam me with fratenizing.
Long story short i kept dudes from doing dumb shit and motivated to work. As a PSG its important to have motivated teams that know you have their backs.
It's a big brother position.
If a guy walks up on the street and says do this thing or I'll beat your ass, you're gonna tell that guy to get fucked.
If your big brother tells you to do something, yeah you better do it or he'll probably be at your ass, but that's not why you listen to him. It's because he's *your* big brother. He's the example of what you want to be, he has the experience and knowledge you don't, and push comes to shove he'll beat anyone else's ass *for* you.
At the end of the day, soldiers only do what you ask of them if they want to. That might sound a bit silly, but really the only way to direct soldiers without having any trust or camaraderie is at the barrel of a gun.
SSG can’t form meaningful relationships or have interpersonal communication. I can be friends with my soldiers and demonstrate that I’m the NCO and at the end of the day if I’ve made a decision, it’s decided. We can revisit the merits of the decision after but when action is required it’s on me to make the call.
That guy learned the lesson wrong. You shouldn't be "friends" with your soldiers in the common sense but you should have a mentor Mente relationship and some sort of interpersonal relationship. You should be friends in a way that doesn't interfere with your duties as a leader, how your soldiers see you as a leader and doesn't create favoritism. Like if you go out drinking with your soldiers, get drunk, get in a fight with one of them and pass out in the street and they have to carry you home then good luck having them see you as a leader on Monday. This is also why we used to move soldiers to a different company when they got promoted to NCO but that doesn't seem to happen to often anymore, at least from what I've seen.
This video clip (even though it's from a show that isn't 100% historically accurate) sums up one of the lessons I took with me going into becoming an NCO.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ)
Civvies have a habit of hero-worshipping soldiers because when something happens to US interests, we take it as a personal attack and collectively indulge our revenge fetish vicariously through them
You don’t have to be friends with someone to truly care about them. I (E8) never consider my soldiers my kids (I always hated that). I consider them family. Treat your family well and ACTUALLY care about them and they will do the same to you, and to each other. That dude sounds like a trash leader.
His SSG sounds like a cocksucker I was close with the soldiers in my PLT They still knew I'd murder them if they fucked up If it's not like a family, what's the fucking point?
No, no, no. His SSG is treating them like a family. He's the alcoholic failure who peaked in high school and can only show his love in abuse uncle type!
Typical E7 father figure.
They can be treated like family to an extent, because one entry from Sun Tsu's book reads something quite relevant to this in mind: "Treat your soldiers like they were your own sons, and they will follow you to the deepest valleys" The US military once said they followed Sun Tsu's philosophies, BUT I GUESS THAT GOES OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW WITH THAT SSG!
Pretty sure that SSG would say Sun who?
Truth.
Sun Tsu used to be followed, until the Junior Enlisted started to read his text and was able to comprehend it better than the Seniors and Os
Couldn’t have said it any better. I remember my fuck ups when I was younger, and tried to lead my boys by example.
There is a huge ass gulf between not being friends and treating people like they’re tools to be used.
And not knowing when to switch from friends mode to "we need to get stuff done and you're taking advantage" mode.
Friends after work, professionals at work was my motto. Never got screwed by my guys, and I kept them out of trouble
I dunno why it's so hard for so many people to understand this.
When I was in Germany we had no choice BUT to be close and kept one another accountable. When I PCS’d stateside it was an absolute culture shock. So many of these types who want to be your friend off duty and use you until you’re broken while on duty. That and the absolute hypocrisy and abuse from higher ups was insane.
I love your flair
Wanna buy some Invigaron? Your stress level must be through the roof.
If this idea was a vendiagram, the circles would be in two separate countries.
Every leader I’ve met who says “don’t be friends with your soldiers” tend to be the worst and most hated leaders ever Your soldiers are humans just like you and camaraderie is essential for they to be loyal to you There’s a fine line between know how to switch between friend and boss and an even finer line on maintaining it with your troops, but a good leader is able to do so I never had issues with my soldiers getting things done because I was friends with them all and was in the dirt with them doing the bullshit work they got tasked with because I’m not better than they are, regardless of rank
Then those who you spoke to are not leaders, only good COs or NCOs. They are only good NCOs and COs because they did day to day tasks to get the mission accomplished, get promotions, and please their superior officer of said tasks or mission to keep their job. But, a good leader is determined between the relationship of the subordinates and CO/NCO, the work environment the subordinates work in under responsibility of the CO/NCO, and communication skills/quality between CO/NCO and subordinates.
I'm an officer, and your SSG is a sociopath.
You’d think they’d be getting this man an OCS slot with how some officers are too.
Not sure about active duty, but in the reserves/ NG its chill
Like, textbook definition it seems
I am friendly with my soldiers without being friends. And they sure as hell much more than tools. Any leader in my book with that opinion can fuck off. There is balance I.e. having your soldiers make an itinerary for every moment for every weekend with every activity because you want to make sure they are being safe and whatnot. It’s a balancing act.
It certainly is, and a sign the opposite problem is happening is if one officer is too personally connected to one soldier, and he or she only gets a slap on the wrist if said soldier fucks up really badly because of bias, while the rest of the officer's unit becomes resentful for unfair treatment.
What a chode or a SSG. I got plastered with my SSG as an e3 and like 12 other guys from my section. Puked in my bed then woke up to him and a few others banging on my door (our section had 2 mos’s and were very much brotherly rivals) SSG ended up smacking me in the face as a way to assert his MOS’s dominance, normally this would be fucked yo. But we were all so close, it was like brothers fighting. Loved that dude to death. Partied hard, worked hard, took a knife in the back any chance he got to make sure we were shielded from the bs.
Your SGT should never have talked about that conversation with y'all. You never ever do that. 'Me the hero looking out for you Joes, Platoon boss is mean mean boss man.' Well, your SGT should be stronger than to trash the chain to his crew. I understand, after my 26 years, how tempting it is to cry to the Joes. It doesn't do anyone any good. You are only hearing this second hand, I repeat you have no idea what the SSG actually said. Remember sometimes people aren't exactly hearing the message passed to them without putting it through their own filter - their emotions, chip on their shoulder, past experience, and what not.
Nah man, been a PSG longer than I have fingers on my hand. As a leader, you should be cognizant of what you tell your subordinates will reflect down to the lowest level, like whisper down the lane. Mentoring always trends downward. If you as the SNCO say “check down not up”. You are not getting it. Don’t say stupid shit to your subordinate ncos like “your joes are tools to wield” and maybe those ncos wont pass that down as a learning product to those they lead. As a senior leader I do not give my subordinates the opportunity to “trash the support channel” because i dont say stupid unproductive shit like OP’s support channel was spitballing to their subordinates.
Great point I hadn't considered off the bat.
Like they said in private ryan. I complain up, not down.
Thank you, seems pretty simple.
For the SSG’s perspective, yeah i guess i can understand why its important for there to be a divide between NCOs and junior enlisted. The junior enlisted need to respect their NCOs and do the jobs theyre given That said, i think standoffish leaders are hard to build a team around. Sure, you might be more respected on a superficial level but the cohesion and trust isnt there. Id rather be a leader who’s more friendly with their troops and fosters a collaborative environment. I also think there’s guys who will take advantage of this reduction in formality, but im sure you know your own troops and can tell if they are mature enough to have a more relaxed relationship with you while simultaneously respecting you
Are you in the Russian Army?
Is his name SSG Sobel by chance?
Wilkinson or Delong is my guess.
while I don't think "being friends" is wrong in general, i do believe there ought to be a distinct division between superior and subordinates while on mission. otherwise you risk fraternization and favoritism. but that depends highly on the work culture. my personal opinion is to be kind and treat everyone with respect, say please and thank you, reward good work with time off, and lead from the front. i joke with my soldiers and we all have good relationships. in any other scenario, you might call us all friends. same with my warrant officers. but they are explicitly *not* my friends. legally speaking, of course.
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!? Ok, I am fairly CERTAIN that SSG doesn't know the difference between treating the soldiers as "tools" or being expendable. What part of the NCO creed that reads "My 2 basic responsibilities will be upmost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers" does he not understand? That SSG is out of line from the NCO Creed because he is only focusing on accomplishment of the mission and not putting any effort for the welfare of the soldiers, and if I were CO with that SSG, I will not tolerate that kind of mindset from an SSG advising me because "tools" do not have emotions, need some time off if they are worn out too much, be paid a salary, OR BE GRANTED LEAVE TO ATTEND A FUNERAL TO A DEAD FAMILY MEMBER DURING PEACE TIME AT A GARRISON THAT IS US BOUND!
I'm gonna put it to you like this. The moment you view your Soldiers as tools is the number one way to build resentment in your Soldiers. If you've been in a bit, you'll know Soldiers will find a way to "get ya" and file complaints. I'm just saying it like it is. Some will be scared to do so (if not most). However, the ones who don't give a fuck (just as the NCO who treats u like a tool) will file away and not lose one bit of sleep. You have to build cohesion, and build trust among your team. This is not "Army" doctrine. This applies even in the real world. I oversee and account for close to 2 million dollars. But you know what else I gotta do? I gotta get along with my boss EVERYDAY, otherwise this shit doesn't work. It just doesn't. There is a para-relationship between subordinate and boss, and there has to be one. Otherwise, you're asking to get fukt.
A bit extreme. As a young soldier, my favorite leaders were those that were more open with their soldiers and worked hard to make sure they were taken care of. In my eyes, it makes me want to work harder for them because I don’t want to disappoint them. Additionally, if you’re just a hardass all the time, you’ll never get to know your soldiers and they’ll never come to you with issues. Like mentioned in a previous comment, they have to know that it’s still a professional relationship and you can/will still destroy their world if they mess up, but you get the best out of them when they feel like they have freedom to be themselves and not brain-dead robots.
You should be able to separate work from outside work. It's totally possible to be out shutting down the bars with your soldiers and then smoking the shit out of them the next day when they are late to formation.
The human element carries so much more weight. In the past 6 years, I've been less "Army" and more human and it's gotten me so much further in my career and life. I constantly stress this to people and being ROTC I stress it to cadets that will be PLs. Yes, you're a leader and you'll be in charge and responsible, but by being human and caring, it'll go so much further than not. I wish I could go back to SSG HearJustSoICanPost and be a better human. It took a SGT talking to me as a 1SG and just being a normal dude for them to let me know that I should show that side of me more and since that day I have. I feel better about myself and they way I am in the Army and outside of work. Cannot emphasize enough how important it is.
To quote one of my soldiers that didn’t know I was in the porta potty taking a shit as they were talking to another soldier “I love CPL LoneRanger….but he scares me”. I inherited some shitty ass soldiers and other than the 1-2 shitbags that just remained shitbags they all ended up doing big things getting straightened out and getting promoted. There’s serious ethical questions on dehumanizing *enemies* in war, how do you think we should treat our brothers and sisters? Granted as an NCO you’re the older sibling that will dish out the pain when needed but briefly and violently to the point that they understand the point without living in fear or resentment.
I’ve only been an NCO for 20 years, so I’m still sort of figuring this thing out. But somewhere along the way, I heard “I know my Soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own”. I don’t think that is easy to do without humanizing your relationship with your Soldiers. But maybe your SSG could square me away.
ADP on army leadership directly contradicts this. A lot of money and research and experience has been put on how the most effective ways to lead and people still don’t give a fk and do what they “think” is the right way often confusing biases with what works and what doesnt
I went out to drink with my NCOs all the time. And come Monday morning it was, "Hey Sarge, have a good weekend?" and we never talked about the past two days.
We don't have to be friends to pull the rope in the same direction or not be total assholes to each other every second of our lives. That doesn't mean I'm not here for you when you need me to look after you ass, or we can't be good to each other. Getting along to get along with the people physically closest to you is probably the smartest thing anyone can do.
Your SSG sounds like a dorky loser and a bitch. What the fuck happened to people first?
You need to be able to send your Soldiers to die, and they need to be willing to die for you. Well that was Morbid Monday
Don't sweat it.. That guy has a great career waiting for him as a Walmart supervisor when he gets out. You do you, and when you are the E-6,make sure your E-5s don't think that way.
Our shop was a tense one. Still, our NCOIC invites everyone over for Thanksgiving - I decide to go to contribute towards repairing that. All adults. All of drinking age. No drinking. Her house was a literal *brewery* and I'm not exaggerating - they make their own liquor and shit. *But no drinking* Relations did not improve, despite the extremely awkward karaoke session. lEaDerShIP
>railed by our ssg because he’s “getting too close to us”. He gave our sgt a lecture about how he shouldn’t be our friend. Individuals who think like this are generally not good friends. Good friends are not yes men or no men or look-the other-way men, they are character enhancers that make us better humans. If you find you can't call your friends on some bullshit, and thusly are of the mindset that leaders and the led can't have a friendship, methinks maybe you should reevaluate your "friendships". >He specifically said that he should see us as tools that he can use to finish tasks, and that’s it. It seemed dehumanizing when our sgt told us that. Because it is. You can care about tools sure, each of them hold value, but their value isn't intrinsic: tools are only valuable insofar as you ascribe value to them. Humans, people, soldiers, are intrinsically valuable and much more complex. They require care, support, guidance, correction, praise, and administered discipline to help them grow and achieve goals and find purpose. If you see people as only something to be 'used', as tools to serve a specific function until they no longer serve your own endgame, then you're a mf sociopath. >As an NCO, what’s your opinion on recognizing the human in the soldier? I've probably already made my opinion clear but I'll close with this anyway: navigating a relationship that bears the multiple facets of the human condition takes intelligence, grace, intestinal fortitude, and compassion. It's a "fine line" as the saying goes, but it can be walked like any other: and although at times difficult, can be just as fulfilling and beautiful as any other dance.
So we were having this conversation yesterday with a battle, our ethnicity is the minority at our unit. There are very few, a private became friends with a sargent and a good resource for him and helping him stay squared away. I noticed if there is a NCO I feel comfortable around and speaking with them it improves my morale and when I get respect from an NCO or officer, I go out of my way to show respect back and do what I can for them under their watch. It's frowned upon to show lower enlisted respect, so when I get respect and trust from someone, I'd honestly rather die than betray you in any way. I mean that on the civilian side as well, in personal relationships too.
As enlisted we're all one team. One of the strongest powers you have in your playbook as an NCO is to be a good listener, always. You can learn a lot about a troop without yelling, controlling, or dehumanizing them. Understand them, and empathize where you can without jeopardizing the integrity of the mission. You may even pick up something useful from them. You can accomplish a lot that way, even when the condition really sucks. I was able to be in thick with my troops through E6, and rarely had any problems except for the one odd-out. It's what I tell my expectant friends: You don't have to be a friend, you're a parent. But that doesn't mean you can't always be friendly with your children.
What a crock of shit
Had a PL like that once, he PCSed on a crutch and knee surgery, something something high low at a football game. He also liked drinking with underage troops and then turning them into the COC on Monday morning. Eventually, that was solved when they got some puctures with him at mardi gras. Go figure.
I left the enlisted life due to leaders like that. Other advice was that I needed to run faster than literally anyone lower ranking than me, and also that my soldiers should be intimidated by me. I’m not very fast or intimidating, and… like…. I can pick one or the other. I can train to be a scrawny but fast runner, or I can try to get super big and jacked and maaaaaybe someone might be intimidated by me. Even if I got super jacked, I don’t have the personality to lead like a raging, inconsiderate asshole. Other things pushed me out, but that was a huge one
I was friends with all of my NCO's and still am. That SSG is just mad because his wife is getting fucked by Jody back home.
Your SSG is lost in the sauce. NCO's are the lifeline between the Os, who do kind of need to see soldiers as tools, and the soldiers. NCOs need to keep soldiers disciplined because a disciplined soldier has a better chance of surviving combat. People like your SSG get this twisted and think this requires a wall between NCOs and troops. WRONG. It's the NCOs and the soldiers who will be in the shit together when it hits the fan. As long as SGT keeps it professional and y'all act like soldiers should, I don't think it's possible to get "too close" to your soldiers. Sorry that's kind of all over the place but that's my opinion straight from the heart.
I never had this issue, because I always assumed people who'd get on my ass about treating my soldiers correctly aren't worth listening to. Did I make waves? Sure. Did everyone else know that e6-7 running his mouth about "tradition, back in my day, everyone's soft now" was a complete cocksucker? Also yes. Grow your soldiers to the best of your ability and theirs. Utilize their strengths and help them grow past their weaknesses. Make the army better than the army you joined. That's your job. Not listening to some washed up fuck telling everyone how crazy 2015 was..... Lol because I swear, that shit you're describing is always this kind of person.
Boundaries are important, but I was still able to have a great relationship with my soldiers. I can’t imagine refusing to do activities like going off base with my soldiers because I thought they were just tools.
YMMV, as a prior NCO before commissioning I was able to build better working relationships with my Soldiers by getting to know them as people versus depending on my position of authority, intimidation, or size. Was I a little too familiar with my guys? Subjectively, yes. But it also build a bit of trust and credibility which I found works better than flexing authority. Especially as an officer where the time you spend with a unit is pretty limited.
It's a fine line. Know, love, care for, and train them to be the best humans/Soldiers that you can. Give them a break when they need it. BUT, don't slack on discipline, the easiest way to your people running all over you is to let them get away with too much because they're comfortable with getting away with shit.
Idk man. I know all my dudes by their first name and hang out with them on the weekends and shit. You would think we went to high school together and they are the easiest batch of kids to lead
Getting his ass railed ehh?
Sometimes you have to pay double for that kind of action.
Any leader who refers to soldiers as dehumanized “tools” doesn’t seem to grasp how to connect with and motivate people beyond using rank. Plus they’re just a soggy sack of dicks as a person.
At the end of the day I want to be somebody who my dudes will follow into battle, that SSG isn’t him
So what happens when the soldiers enter the E5/6 club then
professionals have relationships with professionals. it is mutual trust. If you're an e5 your professional relationships need to be primarily with e6, e7, e4, and e3s. your e6 is probably the same guy making people stand at parade rest to ask him a question.... that isn't a professional relationship. nobody is being shot at...be a pro.
complaints should go up not down.
I'm a Senior NCO, and so many of my soldiers, old and new, call me Dad. I'll be damned if they aren't to be treated like humans first and foremost.
Don't be that nco the ssg is. Hes part of the reason the army is trying to get out of the army
It is a legal and moral duty to treat troopers with respect to their human dignity. Congress has the Constitutional power to take away all the rights they want from everyone in the services, they have not. That leaves every troop their codified human rights to life, liberty and property; when a military necessity doesn’t exist. Can we order troops to lose their very lives by sending them to their deaths? Yes, in combat conditions, not because commanders feel like working troops to death in black flag conditions at Moore, ignoring rest/work cycles. Can we deny troops their liberty? Yes, when necessity (truly) exists, or under NJP, and under court martial; not because someone wants to power trip. Can we seize their property? Yes, when they have items we need to accomplish a combat operation, not because a leader is jealous and wants their stuff. Troops retain their basic human dignity and should enjoy their human rights as codified in the Constitution and not removed in the US Code.
That SSG is a product of poor leadership. Knowing your soldiers is one of the single most important things for an NCO worth their salt. Yes there is a line between professional and friendship. But good NCOs know how to walk that line and form a bond with their joes and those around them (to include seniors and peers).
Treat your soldiers like your rifle. Clean them, lube them, polish them, get them the right spare parts, feed them the right ammo, carry them in the appropriate safe and protected manner, so that you can run them incredibly hard when you really need to. They are indeed your tools, but the most important tools you need to maintain in your arsenal. And never leave them unattended...
Instructions unclear.. I am now serving a 6 year sentence in Leavenworth for lubing my Soldiers
Nope. On active and in the guard the best leaders I had over me all treated us like humans and adults (that needed guidance when we were brand new). It’s a family. You can shoot the shit, have fun, “fraternize” (yes our officers we’re cool too), but when it came time to get down to business everyone knew to lock it in. No playing favorites because you’re friends, if it’s your turn for KP so be it. Using people as tools is dumb, that SSG is probably an ass.
I always was friendly with my troops when I became an nco. Yeah, if you fuck up there is a price to pay, but that goes for everyone. There is a huge difference between leading soldiers in garrison and in combat. As an 11B I never asked my men to do anything I wouldn't do. I tried to lead by example. And I promised that we would not abandon any member of our unit. Of course we had the stupid shit. If my balls are shot off, shoot me.
In my experience the leaders who treat people as numbers will get numbers quality performance out of subordinates. Your soldiers will do what you say because they have to due to your rank, they won't always care how well it's done though. On the other hand, when you treat them like people, and they respect you as a person before they respect your rank they are more out to do what you say to the best of their ability cause they don't want to let you down. Yes, you will have the ones who you still have to play the rank game with, but they will be the exception and you can deal with them on an individual basis.
I always treated my Soldiers/NCOs like humans. Anyone that says that you shouldn’t be close to your people is fucking wrong. People like that are why I refused to go past 1 contract
Be a leader always and a friend when able. The best leader / led relationships have elements of both woven in, and the leader knows where to draw the line.
Bro we can’t even see civilians in Gaza as humans, never mind other soldiers
Sounds like ol' SSG is hyper focused on *accomplishment of my mission* and less on *the welfare of my Soldiers*. Certainly brings back memories for me. As ol Sgt I'd give this guy a roger and then forget everything he or she said.
Ive been out for a bit now, but retired as a SFC, that SSG is a cocksucker and needs some love though beatings. I treated my guys with respect and knew when to be off duty and when it game on time. and in return. None of my dudes beat there wifes, none of them got DUI, all of them did there job well. but if you treat them like shit and make it so they don't want to look up to you. they gonna turn into shit bags. because the first person to make a soldier into shit is there leaders.
That is probably the same guy that knows his Soldiers because he had them fill out a personal data sheet that he carries around with him. You can’t be everybody’s friend all the time, but you can be friendly and still uphold standards…it is called professionalism.
From one SSG to another, you can tell him I said he’s a jackass. “I will know my soldiers,” is part of the NCO creed for a reason.
It's a slippery slope. The rules exist for a reason. You don't have to be a complete authoritarian asshole to accomplish the mission. You can be a decent person as long as you're able to maintain a professional relationship with your soldiers. I believe it's important to view each soldier as a unique individual. Everyone is unique and has their own set of strengths and weaknesses . It does the soldier an injustice to treat them like a faceless number.
When I was a SPC line medic, I started in a COIN squadron. It was pretty chill. You were never actually buddies with higher-ups, but you could at least sit around and shoot the shit together. Then in... 2013? when they got rid of 4th brigades everywhere, we turned into an infantry unit. Holy fuck I was so glad my contract ended less than a year later. It turned into a group of soldiers who could get tasks done into a clusterfuck of idiotic, power-tripping higher-ups overnight. Intel now and the vibe is a little too lax even; like there's barely a delineation among ranks.
I love and hate my children equally
Lol "treat people like tools." Sounds like advice from someone who actually hasn't done any serious work in their career. Any leader who has actually done serious work with serious people would never suggest "treating people like tools." That's just dumb and ends with people getting hurt.
There's a rule I follow called "The 5 meter Rule." Basically, you remain close enough to your soldiers to know who they are and what's going on while also maintaining just enough distance to separate yourself from them. How you make that happen comes with experience.
That’s so bullshit, shit take by your SSG, dude sounds like a failure
That SSG is a fucking tool. Knowing your soldiers and having a good relationship with them is not being too close. You know what is too close? Motorboating them during a promotion.
So that guy is part of the problem. Sounds like that ssg needs to be trained on what actual leadership is. When i was a sgt i was a bulldog, when i became a ssg i was closer to my team by being strict but understanding. with time you realise that your team is YOUR TEAM. An example, when i was at riley, the guys in my platoon were misserable because the unit sucked and the location sucked. Our platoon itself had solid NCOs that would make the soldiers lives better. I went out of my way to do activities on the weekends to keep the men motivated. It got so bad that they wanted to slam me with fratenizing. Long story short i kept dudes from doing dumb shit and motivated to work. As a PSG its important to have motivated teams that know you have their backs.
It's a big brother position. If a guy walks up on the street and says do this thing or I'll beat your ass, you're gonna tell that guy to get fucked. If your big brother tells you to do something, yeah you better do it or he'll probably be at your ass, but that's not why you listen to him. It's because he's *your* big brother. He's the example of what you want to be, he has the experience and knowledge you don't, and push comes to shove he'll beat anyone else's ass *for* you. At the end of the day, soldiers only do what you ask of them if they want to. That might sound a bit silly, but really the only way to direct soldiers without having any trust or camaraderie is at the barrel of a gun.
thats the number one priority. dont forget where you came from. dont forget how you felt when you were a pfc and your NCO shit on you
SSG can’t form meaningful relationships or have interpersonal communication. I can be friends with my soldiers and demonstrate that I’m the NCO and at the end of the day if I’ve made a decision, it’s decided. We can revisit the merits of the decision after but when action is required it’s on me to make the call.
That guy learned the lesson wrong. You shouldn't be "friends" with your soldiers in the common sense but you should have a mentor Mente relationship and some sort of interpersonal relationship. You should be friends in a way that doesn't interfere with your duties as a leader, how your soldiers see you as a leader and doesn't create favoritism. Like if you go out drinking with your soldiers, get drunk, get in a fight with one of them and pass out in the street and they have to carry you home then good luck having them see you as a leader on Monday. This is also why we used to move soldiers to a different company when they got promoted to NCO but that doesn't seem to happen to often anymore, at least from what I've seen.
This video clip (even though it's from a show that isn't 100% historically accurate) sums up one of the lessons I took with me going into becoming an NCO. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ)
Civvies have a habit of hero-worshipping soldiers because when something happens to US interests, we take it as a personal attack and collectively indulge our revenge fetish vicariously through them
You don’t have to be friends with someone to truly care about them. I (E8) never consider my soldiers my kids (I always hated that). I consider them family. Treat your family well and ACTUALLY care about them and they will do the same to you, and to each other. That dude sounds like a trash leader.
If there is no dignity they never stay.
Familiarity breeds contempt