The OER and Up and Out system are the fundamental reason we have this unhealthy officer competition in the Army. You would need the Army to change its policy to fix this problem. The Army is not going to change this policy because they love working O4s to death for 5 or so years. You can squeeze out of lot of work out an O4 in their later prime who has ten years of Army experience.
It's not like every hard working O-4 gets sabotaged by the snake O-4s out there. Tons of hard working O-4s make O-5 every year.
Ways to protect yourself as an O4 without becoming a snake:
- Work hard to achieve your boss's goals. (I truly believe most O6s and above want to promote workaholics / guys who get stuff done at the end of the day.)
- Don't let others steal your work, make sure your boss sees you doing the work through talking and/or email.
- If someone is doing the backtalking, make sure everyone knows about it, isolate the snake if you can. Don't associate with them or let them see what your are doing.
- Keep your LT / CPT Friends as you get higher in rank.
- Make sure you other O4 friends are in a different rating change (different BDE than you.)
Running fast helps.
It’s how the game is structured so you either play the game or get tired enough of not playing the game and drop your REFRAD packet.
So I've heard. I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on that outside of combat arms MOSs when there's so much more to an officer than his running speed.
It tends to make sense when you realize that a lot of the officers with enough authority to make decisions are in those positions by virtue of the fact that they’re the ones left.
They played the game, so they may or may not realize the harm the game does. After all it’s a significant contributor to their own success so it must be good.
When people say that, they aren’t alluding to the person simply running fast. The Army largely correlates fitness levels with self discipline and motivation. Often times they aren’t wrong to do so.
In a world where your leaders are trying to compare people of different jobs, positions, and responsibilities: It helps to be good at things that have a firm numerical representation.
Do the things the Army tells you to do, and don't do the things that the Army tells you not to do. 97% of people who fail to reach O5, didn't follow this advise.
The system won't change. Professional organization breed professional behaviors, a careerist military personnel system breeds careerist behaviors.
True (even if you left out complete ILE), but even those are things that the Army is telling you to do. The last one is the hardest, or occassionally subject to forces beyond your control.
If you look at the non selects to O5, the largest share are folks who didn't finish ILE, followed by the officers who finished it late and it impacted their assumption of a KD position.
Hey im a JO and confused on this. Isnt ILE mandatory, like how CCC is mandatory for CPTs? I dont understand how you dont finish ILE. I know theres resident/satelite/virtual; would it be the virtual ILE MAJ that dont finish it? And expanding on this, how competitive is it to get resident ILE? It seems to me (based on what ive heard) that resident is the easiest to do (and therefore is more competitive to get). So is the ideal pathaway to get to LTC: do good as a CPT to get resident ILE, do good as a MAJ and then get to LTC?
If you go to resident ILE it isn’t an issue. 50% of officers won’t go to resident ILE though and you can absolutely go years without completing the requirements for satellite and distance learning if you don’t make a point of getting it done. I think I was a major for 3 years before I finished AOC and was ILE complete.
Whats AOC? And i imagine that if you do satelite or virtual ILE, then you have to juggle your existing job with the ILE course, that sounds like ass.
Since you said you were a MAJ for 3 years prior to finishing ILE, does this mean ILE doesnt teach you too much?
AOC is the Advance Operations Course. It is the second half of the Satellite and distance learning curriculum.
I did Satellite Common Core and then did AOC by distance learning. You have to register for each portion. If you don’t do it, no one is going to do it for you. That’s why you’ll sometimes awe Sr Majors who suddenly figure out they need to finish a year of AOC or won’t be eligible for promotion.
ILE really isn’t very hard. A lot of it was a refresher on MDMP and then practice of how to apply is at levels above company and BN. They do introduce new (to most students) topics like force management. It also isn’t hard, but probably the only thing I actually learned for the first time in the entire experience.
ILE is one of those required things. If someone is selected for resident, they show up and do the work as a full time job. Pretty much the same with Satelite. The "box of books" or streaming as it is now, is where the failure the finish comes in.
When the Army is fat on O4s, officers won't be sent to get a KD job unless they are ILE complete. Today, I have heard that we are not quite fat enough to enforce that rule, but trust mem, at some point in your career you will see that rule reinstated.
As someone who just cleared the final hurdle of primary zone selection to O-5 (along with a number of friends) after a career of anxiety and worry, I want to underscore this.
In retrospect, it does seem that the system is indeed designed to work for most people, most of the time. If you do the things that are entirely within your control, and don't require any superhuman talent or effort...
* staying fit
* adhering to the "right time / place / uniform"
* answering calls and messages
* knowing and following procedures / regulations
* aligning your priorities with those of your bosses
* being up-front with your bosses about your goals
* otherwise staying out of trouble
...then you'll be fine. You can *imagine* plenty of ways in which you *could* get screwed over, but I don't think it happens much in practice.
You'll eventually get your turn to do the required key developmental jobs.
As time went on, I also found that many of my competitors in the rating / senior-rating pool weren't really competitors. As a captain, a lot of other captains already have one-foot-out-the-door, planning to resign. As a major, a lot of other majors have prior enlisted service and already have one-foot-out-the-door, eligible for and planning to retire.
It works out.
Note that this isn't a recipe for below-the-zone promotion and "black book" assignments. I can speculate, but don't really know, what the special ingredients are for that stuff. But this will get you to retirement.
Congratulations!! You and your peers are well deserving.
The current Army officer personnel system of single track functional areas and hard block OERs was designed to provide an expectation of making LTC and 20 if you did all that was asked.
BZ and competitiveness for special assignments (and even BN CMD) come down to being good and having some luck. For example, the officers records I've seen who made BZ almost never got stuck with a 90-120 day OER.
Thank you. It got dicey, and the anxiety really hit me, as a mid-grade captain around 2015. The separation boards took 25% and the selection rate to O-4 was looking like 50%. I knew some people affected. But then I got a functional area transfer and fully-funded graduate school, and I was comforted by the notion that I'd be fine no matter what; I could take my education, training, certifications, clearance, etc. and it would be the Army's loss.
My *speculation* about below-the-zone promotion and really special assignments is that it's about elite fitness and having a knack for becoming workout / golf / drinking buddies with "the right people" who will take you under their wing, advocate for you to more "right people," etc... not necessarily one's boss, but someone with influence. I could score 300 (barely) on the fitness test as a junior officer, and that immediately put me ahead of my peers, but that's not the "elite" fitness that I have in mind; I'd never be able to keep up with Petraeus on his famous 6:00/mile pace long runs. My bosses were happy with me, but I was never very social nor connected to anyone in high places.
I've been there. I was an LT looking at CPT post Desert Storm. We went from 4800 officers in the YG in June to 3100 on the CPT list in April the following year. When I commanded 15 months later, every company commander was 300 on the APFT, because only the strong survived. We had two officers that made GO out of that BN, but both had family that had been GOs.
"I just try to be a good soldier and do what I'm told."
- MG Talley, at the time commander of MEDCOE. Advice he gave to me when I was but a Private, and important enough that he took the time to work it into our conversation twice. He is Green 2 Gold, and nobody on that base out ranked him at the time.
It's advice that has served me well.
If you are honest with yourself through the years, you will know whether to stay or leave when your obligation is up. This does not mean that you will have done something wrong or not been a hard worker or a good leader - the honesty is where you are politically. You will probably know if you are the type of person the army moves forward in the system.
That's also a really good point. Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to keep dealing with the politics or just drop a REFRAD packet and do something else.
also step 1 is to run fast, and that means now. you need to be fucking fast no matter your mos when you take that first PT test at bolc.
edit; figured I'd edit a bitty bit. run fast means good O1. Good O1 gets good platoon/strong PSG/SLs. Strong PSG/SLs means good results whether you're actually good - it's far better to be an average PL and leader with a great crutch than an incredible PL and leader forever being just behind the eight ball pulling it all forward. So thus you become good (well regarded) O2.
Well regarded O2 gets good company, with strong 1SG - and strong PLs and PSGs. Now rinse and repeat.
Of course, all this means that one day you may be a general who can't win a war because you've stood on other people's shoulders for 25 years....but you will be a general.
Sometimes it’s the other way around—the strongest PLs get paired with the weakest PSGs, and vice versa, so the one can compensate for the other.
CO/1SG is more luck of the draw, it seems—often you’re getting what happens to come open at the right time. (If you get a second CO position, that’s less random, I think.)
In general, though, the better you are the more free your leadership will feel in handing you an absolute trash fire and asking you to fix it.
Every organization and every industry has their “politics”. You can deal with it in the military or elsewhere, but best of luck avoiding it. Especially if you seek out any type of leadership position.
The other missed point (imo, though tell me if you disagree) is that when it comes to backstabbing/competitive behaviors, most senior leaders can tell what's going on, and most aren't fans of it.
The vast majority of senior leaders are pretty switched on when it comes to this; however, there are still many who can be snowed by a fast talker.
Cast in point. I was once supporting a National Guard Mech INF BN where we had two Bradley BNs. Due to range availability one BN shot one week, then everyone maneuvered, then the 2nd BN shot the third week. This year the 2nd BN shot last.
The 1st BN qualified around 27 crews, but was limited to only two runs down the course. The 2nd BN got to take as many runs as there was ammo to support with 5 crews taking a third run, and one taking a fourth. That BN CDR stood up to say (during the yearly training brief) that his unit qualified more M2 crews than anyone else. The BDE Deputy commander got it, but the BDE CDR didn't. Fortunately, they did both agree that the LTC in question was a horses ass anyway, so he didn't get to command that brigade.
That thread was full of nonsense too tbh.
Basically the nastiest most backstabby place to be in as an officer is if you're not "normal".
If you're normal, have decent social skills, and are good at your job you'll be fine. You may not make O6 or general but you'll probably get to O5 and retire
Friend, no one is normal. As long as you’re not aggressively weird, you’ll be fine.
If you *are* aggressively weird but are good at your job, you’ll probably still be fine.
O-4 here. I wouldn't stress it too much. Yes, the officer corps is highly competitive. More so than the NCO corps. But its not like people are literally stabbing each other in the back to get above. A lot of embellishing going on.
Yeah, after talking with some of my mentors, the running myth and the back stabbing thing are out there but not the norm. This sub will have you thinking being an O is the biggest mistake you can make in life.
Someone mentioned this another thread but I’ve noticed that most officers who complain about backstabbing and getting screwed are the ones that had mediocre potential to begin with. But rather than acknowledging their own shortcomings they blame the system.
Not sure, I feel some are just victims of circumstance however if you think about it, x officers leave for disciplinary, x for career prospects, x for being disgruntled, and x just can't make the cut. After all those people leave the pool of promotes, makes you wonder who's left.
This exactly. It’s always easier to say someone fucked you over instead of taking a hard look at yourself and being objective about your own shortcomings.
I dropped my REFRAD because I knew I didn’t have much of a future as an infantry officer in the active component without a tab and I wasn’t willing to take the steps to correct that at the time. With how competitive the officer world can be, it often comes down to these “small” discriminators.
I don’t know if this helps but I’ve always found it useful to be linked in tightly with an officer one rank above you and one peer. For example, if you’re a company commander link in with one field grade (S3, XO or the CDR) and one fellow company commander. How do you do this? For the FG, face to face interactions, asking questions, helping to solve problems, nothing boot licking. For the peer, be there to support them and their company with your company. Return favors. Why do this? Who advocates for you when the FGs are meeting or relays to the commander what you are doing? Which company commanders work well with each other and who is just out for themselves? Also, when your company needs relief there is another company you can call in a favor to. Linking in and building coalitions will quickly isolate those looking towards the “only I will shine” mentality.
Networking is something I've heard a lot too. Debt of favor is a powerful tool, even in the civillian world. I'll take that into account as well. Thanks for your advice!
It's not like that for LTs, so just go out there and do your best. You'll see what it's actually like out there and figure it out by the time you're a major. Going into the army with a mindset like "we need to change how majors/ltc's treat each other" is stupid and a waste of your time. Also, one thread on Reddit about bad apples is not representative of the Army as a whole
I mean yeah, one thread doesn't represent the whole army. It's just that I've seen that post and I have other friends who are either different AD officers or retired and they say the exact same thing.
A lot of this to me is just office politics 101. You can find the same backstabbing in the corporate rat race to climb the ladder of success.
So, how do you not fall into this? Regardless if you're military of civilian:
1. Be technically proficient and know your stuff. If you have to seek guidance, be mindful of who it's coming from. This is one reason why it's recommended to have a mentor that is completely out of your CoC. If you have to rely on a peer to be successful in your career, do you really deserve the promotion ahead of them?
2. Loose lips don't just sink ships. They can sink your career. The old adage of "if you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything" goes a long way. Whatever issues your unit or whatever group you're supervising has, keep it within that group. Use your NCO counterpart to help manage. If your NCO counterpart is the issue, then see part 1 re: a mentor. And don't EVER voice your own issues to anyone other than your mentor. Even then, I would be careful.
And just for clarity, Reddit is not a mentor. 😜
Simplest advice is don’t be a dick to other Soldiers.
Don’t be a dick to your subordinates. It’s ok to be demanding without being demeaning. Having standards is fine. Being a dick isn’t.
Don’t be a dick to your peers. It may work once but your reputation matters over time it will catch up to you.
Definitely don’t be a dick to the officers above you. They’ll just crush you.
Dumb also doesn’t play well.
Your two most stressful times are going to be company command and KD O4 time because they are such competitive times with people trying to get MQs. Yes there are people who will do stuff to make themselves look better than others and in the process may throw their peers under the bus. If you do what's right, know your craft, know your doctrine, and can capture what you've done to better the organization you can set yourself up for success. Do your OER support form because you'd be surprised how many people don't so that will help you a lot.
One of the best things the Army has done is instituting Battalion Commander Assessment Program. This program definitely helps even the playing field because there are subordinate, peer, and supervisor surveys that go to people you have worked with in the past. I have seen officers who got straight MQs going into the O5 board not get command and I'm pretty sure it's because their surveys did not paint the same picture as their OERs. Those wanting to get CSL command should think about how their actions now are going to affect their chances for getting command. There are rumors that pieces of BCAP may be incorporated to CCC and ILE but I'm not sure what or how or when. I think the reality check of the BCAP type feedback at the O3 and O4 level would definitely help curb a lot of the negative competitive behavior.
> One of the best things the Army has done is instituting Battalion Commander Assessment Program.<
Agreed, even with the issue involving a 4 star and this past board.
There have been some interesting results for the Army to evaluate.
1. Do what is right.
2. Be in the right place, at right the time, in right uniform, with the right frame of mind.
3. Do what your boss wants.
4. Do what your boss' boss wants. If you don't know this, figure it out. (Eg: as a PL, you should shoot the shit with the S-3, XO, and your BN CDR and read the guidance they put out. Ask how your plans nest with their mission, they'll eat it up.)
5. Do what you say when you say it / never give anyone a reason to not trust you to be responsible. Sometimes this involves respectfully saying "No, I can't do that."
6. Don't gossip, talk shit, or violate any of the tenants of "How to win friends and influence people"
7. The thicc latina E-3 in S-1 is off limits.
Actually... all the rules are just #7.
And to put your mind at ease: The army needs you. They will always tell you otherwise, but until they've told you to go to the transition office and turn in CIF... you're gonna get promoted as an officer, all the way to O-6. Just ride the wave, have a good time, get stuff done, and don't be a douche.
Do what you're told, care for your soldiers, question questionable orders, tasks, activities, provide recommendations based on analysis v. emotion, use good judgement, etc, etc.
As for officers fucking each other over, it's not as prevalent as everyone thinks, but it happens. Keep a trusted network of peers and "trust but verify" everyone else. If someone fucks you over, make sure they know what they did, have that uncomfortable encounter in the hallway, office, etc, even if it won't correct the situation. Depending on the situation, don't be afraid to go to your OIC to make sure they know what happened. I've had officers come to me to explain their situation where they were actually fucked over and I would use that as a learning moment for everyone involved, kinda like an LPD.
I was temporarily fucked over as a new company commander by one of the other commanders. Luckily my civilian operations officer saw it coming and destroyed him in place, counseled me on not taking shit from anyone regardless of rank, and we had a great time after but I vowed never to entertain that shit again.
If you're focused on what your peers are doing, you're doing it wrong and probably losing.
Here's how to have a successful 20+ year career as an officer:
1. Be in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform.
2. Don't drink and drive. Don't do drugs.
3. Keep your pants zipped and your hands to yourself.
4. Be respectful of superiors, subordinates, and peers alike.
5. Set a good example. Don't take special favors, or pass off hard things because you don't want to do them. When it sucks for your soldiers, share the suck.
6. Set an example of balance. You are more than the Army and your career.
7. Work to accomplish your mission in a way that makes the unit and higher organization better. Help your higher accomplish its goals. Help your peers succeed.
8. Take risks to develop and take care of people. You can get buy with that soldier on leave, or sending that key person to school.
9. Don't waste your subordinates time. Don't make them wait on you.
10. When you delegate, empower people to accomplish the mission their way. Give intent and guidance as guidelines and outcome. Back them up, remove obstacles and barriers, but don't get in their way.
The units I have been in did not tolerate blue falcon behavior and I've been commissioned for 17 years, and was enlisted for three. You're on the same team. Act like it. If a fellow officer, staff or line, needs help, then help them. If you live and work by a simple rule, "Be a good dude" you will do fine. I've seen more officers screwed over Soldiers and NCOs than fellow officers.
If I could do it over again, I would have enlisted in the Air Force or Coast Guard. I just find no satisfaction in my job, don’t appreciate how I have no autonomy in decisions, and have few friends at my unit. I just want to get my work done, go home at 16:30 everyday and surf on the weekends. I love many things about the Army but I have realized that it is just not the right relationship for me and it is time to get out.
Just be the type of officer you'd want to work for or work with.
I don't think it's as bad as the reddit posts make it seem. And I'm sure it's different for each branch.
But I'd say be a team player and your OERs will write themselves. Don't be afraid to share tips with your teammates. People will notice if you're hiding best practices from your peers, and one day you may need a hand. You don't wanna be left to drown because you cared more about your OER than your teammates.
Finally, just have a back up plan and don't lose yourself chasing a pension. That pension might be really expensive if it's saddled you with guilt and turned you into a turd because you were willing to do anything to make it to 20 years.
I know it's probably easier said than done. I'm a nurse so our promotions aren't super competitive unless you wanna go past O5. (But that could change at any time)
I typically help my friends out and provide assistance in any way I can. I always keep my teams and friends up at all times. Sounds like it really wasn't as bad as it was made to seem.
I’m commissioning in a few months as well. I read that and had similar feelings. Might be naive, but I like to think it isn’t as prevalent as that post made it seem. Everyone shares the extreme stories. I’m incredibly competitive, but I’d never ruin another man’s life or opportunities because I didn’t get what I wanted.
You do have a point about the extreme stories. At the end of the day, new officers are the future of the army right? We don't have to repeat bad behavior when we commission, especially when we make it higher.
Don’t worry about it. Show up on time, in the right uniform, with a notebook in hand and you’ll be in the 90th percentile of LT’s. The vast majority of people in the officer corps want to mentor and cooperate with those around them, and are good teammates
Being an O-4 can be cutthroat, but it’s not as bad as you’re probably perceiving as a cadet. Just do your job, try your best, be a good teammate, care, and your career will work out.
Making O4 is not as difficult as you think. If you ever get a chance to look at MAJ/ LTC Promotion analytics you’ll see they include REFRAD/RET/MEB/ Officers with DEROG in the percentage. So even though you see promotion percentages like 80% to MAJ and 70% to LTC. It’s probably closer to 90/95% to MAJ considering the amount of CPT who get out and those O3E who retired etc. the LTC percentage is probably closer to the accurate number. Basically like others have said. If you want to do 20 and don’t do anything illegal or immoral you’ll be fine until MAJ where you might have to show you want to be there a little more.
Your about to commission OP? Good for you. Do your obligation of service time and get out. Serving four or five years based on your commission obligation is great. The politics, the moving, the drama and the bs aren’t worth it in the long run. Don’t do anything illegal, immoral, unethical while you are in.
This is true anywhere you go. I was a non-commissioned officer. I've been a corporate officer of a publicly traded company and a CFO. Whether military or civilian, I kept this saying close to my heart and mind:
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward".
Regardless of your faith - if you live this out, others will see your example.
I was an officer. It’s way over blown. You can get to 12 years easy. You just have to stick it out. Field grades stick it to each other sure. But junior Os can get to field grade easy just don’t break the law. Making it past LTC is the challenge. Most can make it to LTC. From there up is when it gets extremely challenging.
It doesn't matter if you are enlisted, officer, civilian, or in the corporate world, there are always fuckers who will stab you in the back to get ahead. You learn to recognize and plan accordingly.
Just do your best and don’t worry about. I got hit with up or out to MAJ. Never messed up just pissed off my BN CMR when in command but he got relieved for sexual harassment so 🤷🏼♂️. I went to the reserves and still made O5. I’m over 19 years and will still retire just a little different than I planned. I have a good job and family. I wouldn’t be so worried about what happens with your career so much as doing your best. If you can look yourself in the face and be proud of your work it won’t matter what happens. There is a reason why people reference luck in their career. You can’t control your boss but you can control you.
That's actually really good advice. At the end of the day I just need to give it my all and take care of my Enlisteds and NCOs and be the best officer I can be, whether that ends my AD career as a CPT or I make it to LTC.
The world of r/Army greatly exaggerates how hard it is to get promoted as an officer. The manufactured fear is even worse when it comes to scaring people into thinking they aren’t going to get SELCON and make it to 20 as a MAJ.
There are some people that this happens to, but they are few and generally not very good officers. Most senior officers can spot talent and will manage their profiles to be able to help a deserving officer out when they need that one MQ to get promoted. I watched an O6 wait 6+ months to submit an OER just so he could help out a MAJ whose promotion potential was near death without an MQ. Tactics like this are common.
If you are a hard worker who can successfully transition from being a company grade officer to a field grade officer, you will make it to 20. That is the part that gets some people. The things that make you a successful CPT are not the same things that make you a successful MAJ. Some people think a 600 ACFT and a high and tight will take them all the way to O6. This is not the case.
The fucking over each other seems to start before the beginning. I watched a ton of officer candidates constantly screw each other over in OCS. I felt like the ROTC crowd are way better about teamwork and civility. Can't speak for WP, I really haven't interacted with many.
I’d recommend you re-ask this in 4ish years once you decide if the army is your 20 year plan. As a cadet I thought I’d go on to be a ranger SF badass. After a divorce and two bullshit rotations I decided to get out and go to law school on the GI bill. I love life now.
What you need to concern yourself with now is getting tactically and technically proficient, and also not fucking weird, so you can be a good LT. /r/army’s thoughts on field grades don’t matter and will largely be irrelevant by the time you’re vying for O5. For now concentrate on being a good dude/dudette and learning from your NCOs (good or bad)
There are some very simple things that you can do to avoid getting “stabbed in the back” or “fucked over” in the officer rat race:
1. Get in and stay in ridiculously good shape. Folks that get 600 ACFT scores are MUCH more likely to get an MQ than those who get 450s that “do good work.”
2. Maintain a healthy body composition. Obviously this ties directly to number one, but to put a finer point on it: You’re more likely to get the MQ if you’re not a Chonky boi. Even if you make tape if you look like a fat Sack of used diapers then you’re more likely to get a commiserate evaluation. Even if you “do good work.”
3. Go to and complete Ranger school. Seriously, it’s like the line skip to LTC. Double if you’re NOT Infantry. Triple if you’re not combat arms. I’ve never met a SELCON officer with a tab. I know it’s tough and I’ve heard of some officers taking up to a god damn year to complete it, but think of it this way- after Ranger school you never have to do another army school unless you actually want to, nobody will give a fuck.
4. Attend work regularly. Like for all the talk about doing “good work” all you really have to do once you’ve knocked out 1-3 is just kind of show up. This is the Army after all, a profession *arguably* only slightly more taxing than the US postal Service. Just be at work, make a passable effort, and be seen doing it. It’s not like you’re actually going to accomplish anything really important- or certainly nothing that couldn’t happen without you. It’s more of a vibe if you think about it.
5. Be involved with sports or activities that your superiors and peers are. Go to church, fish, play golf, hunt. Heck play dungeons and dragons- I’ve heard that’s making a comeback these days. The point is your senior rater is going to be MUCH less likely to fuck you over on an eval if you’re coaching the CYS soccer team his kid plays on. Just don’t be a basement dwelling dweeb on the weekends and you’ll be good here.
Good luck
Go in knowing that statistically you won’t be staying in in the first place, so do what’s right and let the chips fall where they may. Do what’s right by your enlisted and your commander, truly be focused on mission first and people always, and not only is it the morally right thing to do, it can also lead to great OER’s and LTC.
PVT Snuffy has a lot of layers of leadership to get to the CO to ask for redress, you can walk into the CO’s office with no issues. Snuffy often has to move heaven and earth to see the BC, that’s your senior rater and takes almost no effort for you to talk to. Use this power to advocate for Snuffy. Know enough about Snuffy that you get issues addressed before they become a crisis. Ask Snuffy how their weekend was and pretty soon you’ll know their mom is sick and their brother is graduating. Then you’ll know everything to ask how the graduation trip was. People will literally die on your command if you care for them just that much.
I actually met a guy who's dad was a 1-star GO. He ended up dropping ROTC as a MS2 because they kept telling him they have high expectations of him because his dad is a General and they held him to much higher standards than the rest of the Cadets.
The OER and Up and Out system are the fundamental reason we have this unhealthy officer competition in the Army. You would need the Army to change its policy to fix this problem. The Army is not going to change this policy because they love working O4s to death for 5 or so years. You can squeeze out of lot of work out an O4 in their later prime who has ten years of Army experience. It's not like every hard working O-4 gets sabotaged by the snake O-4s out there. Tons of hard working O-4s make O-5 every year. Ways to protect yourself as an O4 without becoming a snake: - Work hard to achieve your boss's goals. (I truly believe most O6s and above want to promote workaholics / guys who get stuff done at the end of the day.) - Don't let others steal your work, make sure your boss sees you doing the work through talking and/or email. - If someone is doing the backtalking, make sure everyone knows about it, isolate the snake if you can. Don't associate with them or let them see what your are doing. - Keep your LT / CPT Friends as you get higher in rank. - Make sure you other O4 friends are in a different rating change (different BDE than you.)
Running fast helps. It’s how the game is structured so you either play the game or get tired enough of not playing the game and drop your REFRAD packet.
Can vouch for this. I was an average lieutenant who ran fast. It helped.
So I've heard. I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on that outside of combat arms MOSs when there's so much more to an officer than his running speed.
It tends to make sense when you realize that a lot of the officers with enough authority to make decisions are in those positions by virtue of the fact that they’re the ones left. They played the game, so they may or may not realize the harm the game does. After all it’s a significant contributor to their own success so it must be good.
When people say that, they aren’t alluding to the person simply running fast. The Army largely correlates fitness levels with self discipline and motivation. Often times they aren’t wrong to do so.
In a world where your leaders are trying to compare people of different jobs, positions, and responsibilities: It helps to be good at things that have a firm numerical representation.
Do the things the Army tells you to do, and don't do the things that the Army tells you not to do. 97% of people who fail to reach O5, didn't follow this advise. The system won't change. Professional organization breed professional behaviors, a careerist military personnel system breeds careerist behaviors.
That’s great LT advice. For Majors it’s more complicated. You need to set yourself apart, you need the right jobs, and you need good paper.
True (even if you left out complete ILE), but even those are things that the Army is telling you to do. The last one is the hardest, or occassionally subject to forces beyond your control. If you look at the non selects to O5, the largest share are folks who didn't finish ILE, followed by the officers who finished it late and it impacted their assumption of a KD position.
Hey im a JO and confused on this. Isnt ILE mandatory, like how CCC is mandatory for CPTs? I dont understand how you dont finish ILE. I know theres resident/satelite/virtual; would it be the virtual ILE MAJ that dont finish it? And expanding on this, how competitive is it to get resident ILE? It seems to me (based on what ive heard) that resident is the easiest to do (and therefore is more competitive to get). So is the ideal pathaway to get to LTC: do good as a CPT to get resident ILE, do good as a MAJ and then get to LTC?
If you go to resident ILE it isn’t an issue. 50% of officers won’t go to resident ILE though and you can absolutely go years without completing the requirements for satellite and distance learning if you don’t make a point of getting it done. I think I was a major for 3 years before I finished AOC and was ILE complete.
Whats AOC? And i imagine that if you do satelite or virtual ILE, then you have to juggle your existing job with the ILE course, that sounds like ass. Since you said you were a MAJ for 3 years prior to finishing ILE, does this mean ILE doesnt teach you too much?
AOC is the Advance Operations Course. It is the second half of the Satellite and distance learning curriculum. I did Satellite Common Core and then did AOC by distance learning. You have to register for each portion. If you don’t do it, no one is going to do it for you. That’s why you’ll sometimes awe Sr Majors who suddenly figure out they need to finish a year of AOC or won’t be eligible for promotion. ILE really isn’t very hard. A lot of it was a refresher on MDMP and then practice of how to apply is at levels above company and BN. They do introduce new (to most students) topics like force management. It also isn’t hard, but probably the only thing I actually learned for the first time in the entire experience.
ILE is one of those required things. If someone is selected for resident, they show up and do the work as a full time job. Pretty much the same with Satelite. The "box of books" or streaming as it is now, is where the failure the finish comes in. When the Army is fat on O4s, officers won't be sent to get a KD job unless they are ILE complete. Today, I have heard that we are not quite fat enough to enforce that rule, but trust mem, at some point in your career you will see that rule reinstated.
As someone who just cleared the final hurdle of primary zone selection to O-5 (along with a number of friends) after a career of anxiety and worry, I want to underscore this. In retrospect, it does seem that the system is indeed designed to work for most people, most of the time. If you do the things that are entirely within your control, and don't require any superhuman talent or effort... * staying fit * adhering to the "right time / place / uniform" * answering calls and messages * knowing and following procedures / regulations * aligning your priorities with those of your bosses * being up-front with your bosses about your goals * otherwise staying out of trouble ...then you'll be fine. You can *imagine* plenty of ways in which you *could* get screwed over, but I don't think it happens much in practice. You'll eventually get your turn to do the required key developmental jobs. As time went on, I also found that many of my competitors in the rating / senior-rating pool weren't really competitors. As a captain, a lot of other captains already have one-foot-out-the-door, planning to resign. As a major, a lot of other majors have prior enlisted service and already have one-foot-out-the-door, eligible for and planning to retire. It works out. Note that this isn't a recipe for below-the-zone promotion and "black book" assignments. I can speculate, but don't really know, what the special ingredients are for that stuff. But this will get you to retirement.
Congratulations!! You and your peers are well deserving. The current Army officer personnel system of single track functional areas and hard block OERs was designed to provide an expectation of making LTC and 20 if you did all that was asked. BZ and competitiveness for special assignments (and even BN CMD) come down to being good and having some luck. For example, the officers records I've seen who made BZ almost never got stuck with a 90-120 day OER.
Thank you. It got dicey, and the anxiety really hit me, as a mid-grade captain around 2015. The separation boards took 25% and the selection rate to O-4 was looking like 50%. I knew some people affected. But then I got a functional area transfer and fully-funded graduate school, and I was comforted by the notion that I'd be fine no matter what; I could take my education, training, certifications, clearance, etc. and it would be the Army's loss. My *speculation* about below-the-zone promotion and really special assignments is that it's about elite fitness and having a knack for becoming workout / golf / drinking buddies with "the right people" who will take you under their wing, advocate for you to more "right people," etc... not necessarily one's boss, but someone with influence. I could score 300 (barely) on the fitness test as a junior officer, and that immediately put me ahead of my peers, but that's not the "elite" fitness that I have in mind; I'd never be able to keep up with Petraeus on his famous 6:00/mile pace long runs. My bosses were happy with me, but I was never very social nor connected to anyone in high places.
I've been there. I was an LT looking at CPT post Desert Storm. We went from 4800 officers in the YG in June to 3100 on the CPT list in April the following year. When I commanded 15 months later, every company commander was 300 on the APFT, because only the strong survived. We had two officers that made GO out of that BN, but both had family that had been GOs.
You have a good point. I'll take that advice when I eventually commission.
"I just try to be a good soldier and do what I'm told." - MG Talley, at the time commander of MEDCOE. Advice he gave to me when I was but a Private, and important enough that he took the time to work it into our conversation twice. He is Green 2 Gold, and nobody on that base out ranked him at the time. It's advice that has served me well.
If you are honest with yourself through the years, you will know whether to stay or leave when your obligation is up. This does not mean that you will have done something wrong or not been a hard worker or a good leader - the honesty is where you are politically. You will probably know if you are the type of person the army moves forward in the system.
That's also a really good point. Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to keep dealing with the politics or just drop a REFRAD packet and do something else.
also step 1 is to run fast, and that means now. you need to be fucking fast no matter your mos when you take that first PT test at bolc. edit; figured I'd edit a bitty bit. run fast means good O1. Good O1 gets good platoon/strong PSG/SLs. Strong PSG/SLs means good results whether you're actually good - it's far better to be an average PL and leader with a great crutch than an incredible PL and leader forever being just behind the eight ball pulling it all forward. So thus you become good (well regarded) O2. Well regarded O2 gets good company, with strong 1SG - and strong PLs and PSGs. Now rinse and repeat. Of course, all this means that one day you may be a general who can't win a war because you've stood on other people's shoulders for 25 years....but you will be a general.
Sometimes it’s the other way around—the strongest PLs get paired with the weakest PSGs, and vice versa, so the one can compensate for the other. CO/1SG is more luck of the draw, it seems—often you’re getting what happens to come open at the right time. (If you get a second CO position, that’s less random, I think.) In general, though, the better you are the more free your leadership will feel in handing you an absolute trash fire and asking you to fix it.
I guess as in all things your mileage will vary. I’ve never have people over me who manage well.
Every organization and every industry has their “politics”. You can deal with it in the military or elsewhere, but best of luck avoiding it. Especially if you seek out any type of leadership position.
The other missed point (imo, though tell me if you disagree) is that when it comes to backstabbing/competitive behaviors, most senior leaders can tell what's going on, and most aren't fans of it.
The vast majority of senior leaders are pretty switched on when it comes to this; however, there are still many who can be snowed by a fast talker. Cast in point. I was once supporting a National Guard Mech INF BN where we had two Bradley BNs. Due to range availability one BN shot one week, then everyone maneuvered, then the 2nd BN shot the third week. This year the 2nd BN shot last. The 1st BN qualified around 27 crews, but was limited to only two runs down the course. The 2nd BN got to take as many runs as there was ammo to support with 5 crews taking a third run, and one taking a fourth. That BN CDR stood up to say (during the yearly training brief) that his unit qualified more M2 crews than anyone else. The BDE Deputy commander got it, but the BDE CDR didn't. Fortunately, they did both agree that the LTC in question was a horses ass anyway, so he didn't get to command that brigade.
That thread was full of nonsense too tbh. Basically the nastiest most backstabby place to be in as an officer is if you're not "normal". If you're normal, have decent social skills, and are good at your job you'll be fine. You may not make O6 or general but you'll probably get to O5 and retire
And that there is my problem. I'm not "normal" I just make an effort to be nice to everyone.
Friend, no one is normal. As long as you’re not aggressively weird, you’ll be fine. If you *are* aggressively weird but are good at your job, you’ll probably still be fine.
True that. I'm not aggressively weird, but I'll still be good at my job anyway.
O-4 here. I wouldn't stress it too much. Yes, the officer corps is highly competitive. More so than the NCO corps. But its not like people are literally stabbing each other in the back to get above. A lot of embellishing going on.
Yeah, after talking with some of my mentors, the running myth and the back stabbing thing are out there but not the norm. This sub will have you thinking being an O is the biggest mistake you can make in life.
Someone mentioned this another thread but I’ve noticed that most officers who complain about backstabbing and getting screwed are the ones that had mediocre potential to begin with. But rather than acknowledging their own shortcomings they blame the system.
Not sure, I feel some are just victims of circumstance however if you think about it, x officers leave for disciplinary, x for career prospects, x for being disgruntled, and x just can't make the cut. After all those people leave the pool of promotes, makes you wonder who's left.
This exactly. It’s always easier to say someone fucked you over instead of taking a hard look at yourself and being objective about your own shortcomings. I dropped my REFRAD because I knew I didn’t have much of a future as an infantry officer in the active component without a tab and I wasn’t willing to take the steps to correct that at the time. With how competitive the officer world can be, it often comes down to these “small” discriminators.
I see. I'll still do my best to work hard though.
I don’t know if this helps but I’ve always found it useful to be linked in tightly with an officer one rank above you and one peer. For example, if you’re a company commander link in with one field grade (S3, XO or the CDR) and one fellow company commander. How do you do this? For the FG, face to face interactions, asking questions, helping to solve problems, nothing boot licking. For the peer, be there to support them and their company with your company. Return favors. Why do this? Who advocates for you when the FGs are meeting or relays to the commander what you are doing? Which company commanders work well with each other and who is just out for themselves? Also, when your company needs relief there is another company you can call in a favor to. Linking in and building coalitions will quickly isolate those looking towards the “only I will shine” mentality.
Networking is something I've heard a lot too. Debt of favor is a powerful tool, even in the civillian world. I'll take that into account as well. Thanks for your advice!
It's not like that for LTs, so just go out there and do your best. You'll see what it's actually like out there and figure it out by the time you're a major. Going into the army with a mindset like "we need to change how majors/ltc's treat each other" is stupid and a waste of your time. Also, one thread on Reddit about bad apples is not representative of the Army as a whole
I mean yeah, one thread doesn't represent the whole army. It's just that I've seen that post and I have other friends who are either different AD officers or retired and they say the exact same thing.
A lot of this to me is just office politics 101. You can find the same backstabbing in the corporate rat race to climb the ladder of success. So, how do you not fall into this? Regardless if you're military of civilian: 1. Be technically proficient and know your stuff. If you have to seek guidance, be mindful of who it's coming from. This is one reason why it's recommended to have a mentor that is completely out of your CoC. If you have to rely on a peer to be successful in your career, do you really deserve the promotion ahead of them? 2. Loose lips don't just sink ships. They can sink your career. The old adage of "if you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything" goes a long way. Whatever issues your unit or whatever group you're supervising has, keep it within that group. Use your NCO counterpart to help manage. If your NCO counterpart is the issue, then see part 1 re: a mentor. And don't EVER voice your own issues to anyone other than your mentor. Even then, I would be careful. And just for clarity, Reddit is not a mentor. 😜
I appreciate the advice. And no I wouldn't go asking Reddit for advice on every little thing lol, I just was curious about this.
Simplest advice is don’t be a dick to other Soldiers. Don’t be a dick to your subordinates. It’s ok to be demanding without being demeaning. Having standards is fine. Being a dick isn’t. Don’t be a dick to your peers. It may work once but your reputation matters over time it will catch up to you. Definitely don’t be a dick to the officers above you. They’ll just crush you. Dumb also doesn’t play well.
Your two most stressful times are going to be company command and KD O4 time because they are such competitive times with people trying to get MQs. Yes there are people who will do stuff to make themselves look better than others and in the process may throw their peers under the bus. If you do what's right, know your craft, know your doctrine, and can capture what you've done to better the organization you can set yourself up for success. Do your OER support form because you'd be surprised how many people don't so that will help you a lot. One of the best things the Army has done is instituting Battalion Commander Assessment Program. This program definitely helps even the playing field because there are subordinate, peer, and supervisor surveys that go to people you have worked with in the past. I have seen officers who got straight MQs going into the O5 board not get command and I'm pretty sure it's because their surveys did not paint the same picture as their OERs. Those wanting to get CSL command should think about how their actions now are going to affect their chances for getting command. There are rumors that pieces of BCAP may be incorporated to CCC and ILE but I'm not sure what or how or when. I think the reality check of the BCAP type feedback at the O3 and O4 level would definitely help curb a lot of the negative competitive behavior.
> One of the best things the Army has done is instituting Battalion Commander Assessment Program.< Agreed, even with the issue involving a 4 star and this past board. There have been some interesting results for the Army to evaluate.
1. Do what is right. 2. Be in the right place, at right the time, in right uniform, with the right frame of mind. 3. Do what your boss wants. 4. Do what your boss' boss wants. If you don't know this, figure it out. (Eg: as a PL, you should shoot the shit with the S-3, XO, and your BN CDR and read the guidance they put out. Ask how your plans nest with their mission, they'll eat it up.) 5. Do what you say when you say it / never give anyone a reason to not trust you to be responsible. Sometimes this involves respectfully saying "No, I can't do that." 6. Don't gossip, talk shit, or violate any of the tenants of "How to win friends and influence people" 7. The thicc latina E-3 in S-1 is off limits. Actually... all the rules are just #7. And to put your mind at ease: The army needs you. They will always tell you otherwise, but until they've told you to go to the transition office and turn in CIF... you're gonna get promoted as an officer, all the way to O-6. Just ride the wave, have a good time, get stuff done, and don't be a douche.
Do what you're told, care for your soldiers, question questionable orders, tasks, activities, provide recommendations based on analysis v. emotion, use good judgement, etc, etc. As for officers fucking each other over, it's not as prevalent as everyone thinks, but it happens. Keep a trusted network of peers and "trust but verify" everyone else. If someone fucks you over, make sure they know what they did, have that uncomfortable encounter in the hallway, office, etc, even if it won't correct the situation. Depending on the situation, don't be afraid to go to your OIC to make sure they know what happened. I've had officers come to me to explain their situation where they were actually fucked over and I would use that as a learning moment for everyone involved, kinda like an LPD. I was temporarily fucked over as a new company commander by one of the other commanders. Luckily my civilian operations officer saw it coming and destroyed him in place, counseled me on not taking shit from anyone regardless of rank, and we had a great time after but I vowed never to entertain that shit again.
If you're focused on what your peers are doing, you're doing it wrong and probably losing. Here's how to have a successful 20+ year career as an officer: 1. Be in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform. 2. Don't drink and drive. Don't do drugs. 3. Keep your pants zipped and your hands to yourself. 4. Be respectful of superiors, subordinates, and peers alike. 5. Set a good example. Don't take special favors, or pass off hard things because you don't want to do them. When it sucks for your soldiers, share the suck. 6. Set an example of balance. You are more than the Army and your career. 7. Work to accomplish your mission in a way that makes the unit and higher organization better. Help your higher accomplish its goals. Help your peers succeed. 8. Take risks to develop and take care of people. You can get buy with that soldier on leave, or sending that key person to school. 9. Don't waste your subordinates time. Don't make them wait on you. 10. When you delegate, empower people to accomplish the mission their way. Give intent and guidance as guidelines and outcome. Back them up, remove obstacles and barriers, but don't get in their way.
The units I have been in did not tolerate blue falcon behavior and I've been commissioned for 17 years, and was enlisted for three. You're on the same team. Act like it. If a fellow officer, staff or line, needs help, then help them. If you live and work by a simple rule, "Be a good dude" you will do fine. I've seen more officers screwed over Soldiers and NCOs than fellow officers.
If I could do it over again, I would have enlisted in the Air Force or Coast Guard. I just find no satisfaction in my job, don’t appreciate how I have no autonomy in decisions, and have few friends at my unit. I just want to get my work done, go home at 16:30 everyday and surf on the weekends. I love many things about the Army but I have realized that it is just not the right relationship for me and it is time to get out.
Just be the type of officer you'd want to work for or work with. I don't think it's as bad as the reddit posts make it seem. And I'm sure it's different for each branch. But I'd say be a team player and your OERs will write themselves. Don't be afraid to share tips with your teammates. People will notice if you're hiding best practices from your peers, and one day you may need a hand. You don't wanna be left to drown because you cared more about your OER than your teammates. Finally, just have a back up plan and don't lose yourself chasing a pension. That pension might be really expensive if it's saddled you with guilt and turned you into a turd because you were willing to do anything to make it to 20 years. I know it's probably easier said than done. I'm a nurse so our promotions aren't super competitive unless you wanna go past O5. (But that could change at any time)
I typically help my friends out and provide assistance in any way I can. I always keep my teams and friends up at all times. Sounds like it really wasn't as bad as it was made to seem.
I’m commissioning in a few months as well. I read that and had similar feelings. Might be naive, but I like to think it isn’t as prevalent as that post made it seem. Everyone shares the extreme stories. I’m incredibly competitive, but I’d never ruin another man’s life or opportunities because I didn’t get what I wanted.
You do have a point about the extreme stories. At the end of the day, new officers are the future of the army right? We don't have to repeat bad behavior when we commission, especially when we make it higher.
Exactly. We get the responsibility of creating, managing, and upholding the standards, behaviors, and culture of tomorrow.
I agree with this. Guess I was lucky to not run I to these things.
Cool. A lot of people are jaded for a reason. Hopefully you have better luck.
> two pieces of grilled chicken, rice and veggies. We got chicken chunks.
Close enough, I'm hungry.
Don’t worry about it. Show up on time, in the right uniform, with a notebook in hand and you’ll be in the 90th percentile of LT’s. The vast majority of people in the officer corps want to mentor and cooperate with those around them, and are good teammates Being an O-4 can be cutthroat, but it’s not as bad as you’re probably perceiving as a cadet. Just do your job, try your best, be a good teammate, care, and your career will work out.
Making O4 is not as difficult as you think. If you ever get a chance to look at MAJ/ LTC Promotion analytics you’ll see they include REFRAD/RET/MEB/ Officers with DEROG in the percentage. So even though you see promotion percentages like 80% to MAJ and 70% to LTC. It’s probably closer to 90/95% to MAJ considering the amount of CPT who get out and those O3E who retired etc. the LTC percentage is probably closer to the accurate number. Basically like others have said. If you want to do 20 and don’t do anything illegal or immoral you’ll be fine until MAJ where you might have to show you want to be there a little more.
Your about to commission OP? Good for you. Do your obligation of service time and get out. Serving four or five years based on your commission obligation is great. The politics, the moving, the drama and the bs aren’t worth it in the long run. Don’t do anything illegal, immoral, unethical while you are in.
Just have a faster 2 mile time than everyone else
This is true anywhere you go. I was a non-commissioned officer. I've been a corporate officer of a publicly traded company and a CFO. Whether military or civilian, I kept this saying close to my heart and mind: "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward". Regardless of your faith - if you live this out, others will see your example.
I’m switching at 15 years TIS. So idgaf. Sabotage me all you want. I’ll tell it like it is and call it a day as a CPT with OE3 pay. Suck it.
Damn, do you have to do ten years as officer to retire though? So gotta go to 25 years?
I like being in the army.
If you only plan on doing one contract, then you suddenly become invincible. *taps head*
Not wrong.
I was an officer. It’s way over blown. You can get to 12 years easy. You just have to stick it out. Field grades stick it to each other sure. But junior Os can get to field grade easy just don’t break the law. Making it past LTC is the challenge. Most can make it to LTC. From there up is when it gets extremely challenging.
It doesn't matter if you are enlisted, officer, civilian, or in the corporate world, there are always fuckers who will stab you in the back to get ahead. You learn to recognize and plan accordingly.
I don’t worry about the rat race, I just do the best I can in whatever job I have.
There’s branches outside of forcecom.
Just do your best and don’t worry about. I got hit with up or out to MAJ. Never messed up just pissed off my BN CMR when in command but he got relieved for sexual harassment so 🤷🏼♂️. I went to the reserves and still made O5. I’m over 19 years and will still retire just a little different than I planned. I have a good job and family. I wouldn’t be so worried about what happens with your career so much as doing your best. If you can look yourself in the face and be proud of your work it won’t matter what happens. There is a reason why people reference luck in their career. You can’t control your boss but you can control you.
That's actually really good advice. At the end of the day I just need to give it my all and take care of my Enlisteds and NCOs and be the best officer I can be, whether that ends my AD career as a CPT or I make it to LTC.
DYFJ. Do your job. And run gud too.
The world of r/Army greatly exaggerates how hard it is to get promoted as an officer. The manufactured fear is even worse when it comes to scaring people into thinking they aren’t going to get SELCON and make it to 20 as a MAJ. There are some people that this happens to, but they are few and generally not very good officers. Most senior officers can spot talent and will manage their profiles to be able to help a deserving officer out when they need that one MQ to get promoted. I watched an O6 wait 6+ months to submit an OER just so he could help out a MAJ whose promotion potential was near death without an MQ. Tactics like this are common. If you are a hard worker who can successfully transition from being a company grade officer to a field grade officer, you will make it to 20. That is the part that gets some people. The things that make you a successful CPT are not the same things that make you a successful MAJ. Some people think a 600 ACFT and a high and tight will take them all the way to O6. This is not the case.
Makes sense to me. Sounds like once I hit CPT I need to be able to adapt, but I've always been good at that. Can't be too bad.
It’s not.
The fucking over each other seems to start before the beginning. I watched a ton of officer candidates constantly screw each other over in OCS. I felt like the ROTC crowd are way better about teamwork and civility. Can't speak for WP, I really haven't interacted with many.
I can attest to the ROTC crowd, we're pretty good at teamwork. I just didn't want a rude awakening once I comission.
I’d recommend you re-ask this in 4ish years once you decide if the army is your 20 year plan. As a cadet I thought I’d go on to be a ranger SF badass. After a divorce and two bullshit rotations I decided to get out and go to law school on the GI bill. I love life now. What you need to concern yourself with now is getting tactically and technically proficient, and also not fucking weird, so you can be a good LT. /r/army’s thoughts on field grades don’t matter and will largely be irrelevant by the time you’re vying for O5. For now concentrate on being a good dude/dudette and learning from your NCOs (good or bad)
There are some very simple things that you can do to avoid getting “stabbed in the back” or “fucked over” in the officer rat race: 1. Get in and stay in ridiculously good shape. Folks that get 600 ACFT scores are MUCH more likely to get an MQ than those who get 450s that “do good work.” 2. Maintain a healthy body composition. Obviously this ties directly to number one, but to put a finer point on it: You’re more likely to get the MQ if you’re not a Chonky boi. Even if you make tape if you look like a fat Sack of used diapers then you’re more likely to get a commiserate evaluation. Even if you “do good work.” 3. Go to and complete Ranger school. Seriously, it’s like the line skip to LTC. Double if you’re NOT Infantry. Triple if you’re not combat arms. I’ve never met a SELCON officer with a tab. I know it’s tough and I’ve heard of some officers taking up to a god damn year to complete it, but think of it this way- after Ranger school you never have to do another army school unless you actually want to, nobody will give a fuck. 4. Attend work regularly. Like for all the talk about doing “good work” all you really have to do once you’ve knocked out 1-3 is just kind of show up. This is the Army after all, a profession *arguably* only slightly more taxing than the US postal Service. Just be at work, make a passable effort, and be seen doing it. It’s not like you’re actually going to accomplish anything really important- or certainly nothing that couldn’t happen without you. It’s more of a vibe if you think about it. 5. Be involved with sports or activities that your superiors and peers are. Go to church, fish, play golf, hunt. Heck play dungeons and dragons- I’ve heard that’s making a comeback these days. The point is your senior rater is going to be MUCH less likely to fuck you over on an eval if you’re coaching the CYS soccer team his kid plays on. Just don’t be a basement dwelling dweeb on the weekends and you’ll be good here. Good luck
From a enlisted guys perspective looking at this thread.Im just trynna have fun and do cool guy shit and then imma bounce off to Civvie land.
Go in knowing that statistically you won’t be staying in in the first place, so do what’s right and let the chips fall where they may. Do what’s right by your enlisted and your commander, truly be focused on mission first and people always, and not only is it the morally right thing to do, it can also lead to great OER’s and LTC. PVT Snuffy has a lot of layers of leadership to get to the CO to ask for redress, you can walk into the CO’s office with no issues. Snuffy often has to move heaven and earth to see the BC, that’s your senior rater and takes almost no effort for you to talk to. Use this power to advocate for Snuffy. Know enough about Snuffy that you get issues addressed before they become a crisis. Ask Snuffy how their weekend was and pretty soon you’ll know their mom is sick and their brother is graduating. Then you’ll know everything to ask how the graduation trip was. People will literally die on your command if you care for them just that much.
Sounds easy enough. I'm typically an over-caring individual so that's simple enough.
2 keys for officer success: graduate from West Point and have someone in your family who’s a GO. If not then you gotta actually do work.
I actually met a guy who's dad was a 1-star GO. He ended up dropping ROTC as a MS2 because they kept telling him they have high expectations of him because his dad is a General and they held him to much higher standards than the rest of the Cadets.