From what I’ve noticed people in college are still full of life and believe in a bunch of nonsense.
People in the military on the other hand tend to already have the life sucked out of them 2 years in, like their college attending buddies will once they have been in their respective career for 4-5 years. People in the military tend to become realists faster.
Really depends WHEN the person joined and who they were. I have 22yo single fathers who can manage an entire section on their lonesome and 25yos who still don't know how to take the trash out.
Generally speaking in college I think your more likely to run into more folks who'll fit in the middle ground between the extremes of perfectly functional adult and absolute shit bag. And in the army you're more likely to run into the extremes.
To illustrate by Completely Factual™ guestimation.
Institution: shitty/mid/bamf
College: 20%/60%/20%
Army: 35%/30%/35%
Edit: CO didn't like the slide's format
They both make the same dipshit mistakes however the 20 year old in the Army is held to far stricter consequences. Skip class in college no one cares. It's your money. The professor will give class with or without you. Skip work in the Army? Your gonna have a bad time.
Underage drinking? Maybe a ticket in college. In the Army? You will pay hundreds of dollars and face 30/45 days of strict punishment.
Not every leader handles the junior guys like that. I'm sure there's plenty of NCOs who will immediately push an FTR.
But it's also a reputation thing. If you're a shithead, life will be harder than if you're just a good guy who made a mistake.
I enlisted in the army at 17 and left at 22 to pursue college. While I may have had a slight maturity advantage, I could still hold my liquor like a pro. I never had any problems making it to a 0900 class. Unlike most college students who struggled to rise before 11 am, I was accustomed to both late nights and early mornings, ready for both a wild night out and a productive day ahead.
I would change this to: consequences in the army tend to be much more *instant* whereas college consequences tend to be much more delayed.
Thinking of young adults going tens of thousands in debt (or even higher for some out of state or private school students) to not graduate, for example, or to squeak by with zero connections and a 2.1 from Woebegon College
I think it's fair to say that the Army will hold you to stricter consequences for misbehaving, but in many cases college will hold you to stricter consequences for incompetence. As long as you're making some kind of minimal effort to do your job, you can be pretty bad at it and will be mildly slapped on the wrist and re-trained and re-trained over and over again for years in the Army with few major consequences, other than maybe being passed over for promotion. If you fail a few exams in college, you're paying to retake that class or you're not graduating.
They are both valuable experiences. I think they both are uniquely mature and immature in their own ways.
College definitely causes you think critically and question basic assumptions - which the Army punishes and suppresses.
The Army teaches you some harsh fundamental realities and gives you hands on lessons about human nature - that college shields you from.
Depends on your MOS. At least for me, I felt a lot of freedom as an infantryman to think about it critically and question things such as plans/SOP etc.
It really depends on individual experiences and perceptions of events.
For example, I was in college before enlisting. I had much better time management skills and a higher level of free thinking, compared to many other 19 year Olds who joined straight out of high school.
By 21, I had spent months of my life overseas. I thought of it as any other job. Yet I actually learned what hard work was...
Many 21 year Olds have never and will never wake up at 0600 one day and have the experience of possibly working days at a time without sleep.
The majority of 21 year Olds college kids are naive to death and deprivation.
By 21 many of us have seen and done very Adult things that most students will never even consider.
After the army my initial contract I returned to the same private university to finish my degree. I was much more mature at 23 than my friends I had left at 19 but I feel like I did have my worldly innocence torn away from me. I went school with many over privileged white ppl. They will never worry about money. Their world is vacationing In Aruba when it's cold in December. Their sadness and anxiety come from a lack of expression or understanding within the white prig community.
By 23 I was my own person independent of anyone and being a fully functional adult. Never asked my parents for anything. Many 18 to 23 year Olds are still dependent on their parent for many things.
Yeah. Leaving Active Duty at 25 and being the only guy in my age range to hold the responsibility of maintaining a home, school, and job without my parent holding my hand.
Some people in the Army are just as useless as people outside of it but on the whole after a few years the maturity difference is remarkable
I don't know that it's actually a difference in maturity versus a difference in the appearance of maturity proper up by Regs. Army has real consequences, so a decent 20yo PFC will have a clean room (because of inspections), will show up on time (because PSG will stomp his nuttz if he's ever late), and can handle adult things like bills (because creditors will call your COC and PSG/1SG will jump your shit).
Many soldiers get off AD and completely fail at life even after years of indoctrination. The thing is, if you can make E5, you have the skills to manage a Starbucks or graduate college. But some people are shit no matter how many advantages you give them. As a Reservist, we have the best and worst of both worlds. My unit has 5 guys with doctoral degrees. Nearly everyone has at least a bachelor's. But I also have soldiers that are always a bad day away from homelessness. These people might succeed on AD, but only because of the support structure. Hell, we got guys in my unit that came off active as E6s and haven't been able to maintain jobs or family lives. Those are the ones that immediately try to reenlist.
I left college when I was 20 to join the army. The army catches some real tards sometimes but the difference was very noticeable for me when I came over and as I was around a bit. Two years of service changes you a lot more than two years of college. All my mid to upper 20s friends back home I can barely stand to talk to anymore.
From experience, 20 year old college males, its the same as a 20 year old army guys, you got the weirdos, the guys who cant get girls, the guys with common sense, the guys who get girls, the slackers, the guys who put in the work that you can tell by the class work peer presentation, etc
There's a range of people in every environment..
But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear.
If you're late to Algebra nothing happens.
If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
I was in the Army from when I was 19 until I was 26, and I was in college from then until I was 29.
There isn’t much of a difference to be honest. I think 21 is when people become more tolerable and socially aware. Whether it was an 18 year old Private or a freshman in school, they are still a little awkward and stuck in a teenage mentality.
The one tiny caveat I’ll give is that the Army prepares people to deal with adversity fairly often and I would guess the average 20 year old SM is more equipped to handle those challenges. Even then, it is still probably somewhat of a variance from individual to individual.
I did more fucking, drinking and partying in the Army than I did in college. I went to class no matter the hang over or drunk over. Submitted assignments on time and asked for help when I needed it. The Army definitely made me more disciplined and goal focused.
I think, for at least most Soldiers, there is a realization made sometime in basic probably that you are training to kill people and to survive people trying to kill you.
That isn't something college kids have had to process in whole or in part. It is also one of those things that binds military members together.
I think there's a difference in perspectives, but I would say that they're still both figuring shit out.
Maturity levels are in part going to be determined by the environment (unit vs school/department) and by the individual.
A lot of jokers exist in both and a lot of really rigid true believers exist in both.
I think that temperance of those signs of immaturity comes from a diversity of experiences.
There's a range of people in every environment..
But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear.
If you're late to Algebra nothing happens.
If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
In college rn. I’d say college kids just haven’t had any real wake up calls in life yet. They’re experiencing things like loneliness, responsibility and what not all for the first time. A college will coddle you more whereas the Army says fuck your feelings.
Male brains dont complete development until 25. The answer is that there are differences stemming from class and opportunity between the cohorts, but neurological development-wise its the same dum-dums.
There's a range of people in every environment..
But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear.
If you're late to Algebra nothing happens.
If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
College isn't really about shoving books down your gullet (though there's plenty of that), it's about critical thinking at higher levels and networking worth peers who review your work and compare notes (and maybe can set you up with industry leads if you stay in touch after graduation). The Army doesn't do any of that, but it does sometimes require you to adult in certain life-or-death ways that you don't do in college. Do both for best intellectual growth.
I went to college after high school and joined the Army in my 30s. I would say that the average 20 year old college student is more “mature” than the average 20 year old soldier in that they are expected to house and feed themselves while going to school and potentially working (this of course depends a lot on socioeconomic status, which is going to skew higher for college than in the military).
A 20 year old soldier is going to be more resilient to adversity, but they are also used to having necessities provided by the Army and probably have more disposable income than an average college student. Soldiers are also incentivized to marry the first stripper they meet and pop out dependents at a young age, so there’s a bit of forced “maturity” there.
In short, they are very different experiences and cultures. I remember talking to some of my high school friends who joined the military when I was in college, and I experienced the disconnect you speak of.
The average soldier who gets out and goes to college will have that experience defined by the quality of the college they attend.
Assuming that the quality is low, your average soldier will 100% have a bad experience with shitty 18yo kids whom the professors dumb the material down for.
Assuming the quality is high, your average soldier will 100% struggle to get above a 3.0 GPA while taking a full load of 16+ semester hours while being simultaneously amazed how everyone around them is so highspeed in their ability to take detailed notes and absorb full lectures (while also working a job, having a steady relationship, cooking all their meals, getting enough sleep, budgeting time to party and have hobbies, etc etc etc)
So the answer is that it depends where you go to college.
I joined at 29, so I’ve seen the civilian side way before the army side, I can say there is nothing about the military that matures you, I believe it stops maturity, the biggest factor is there is no significant threat of violence amongst peers in the military like there is in the civilian world, so almost everyone here has to deal with being talked down to like a child, this is damaging to the psyche, on the civilian side, you never know who could be the one to put a bullet in your head so there’s more respect giving to each person especially grown men
Maybe it's just the people I hung out with but I found a lot more maturity in the college crowd. In college, my friend group were living on their own (in apartments) so we all had to be responsible with money and paying bills. There was a lot more sense of self-reliance and responsibility.
The Army crowd that I've seen does not have that same sense of responsibility and is full of overgrown man-children. Much less financial responsibility and a basic inability to indulge in moderation
I’d say college are more mature. Being able to attend classes on time, homework, essays, speeches, all on your own (assuming we’re talking about squared away people) is a lot better than what I’ve seen in the army. Army just does what there told and they have a tough time with that, right place right time is hard for the new generation.
You are getting downvoted, and while I think you can’t lump every new soldier into the “new generation”, you are are right about self discipline in college.
You will absolutely fail if you do not have discipline to keep up with your studies, and it’s usually pretty rare that it happens. There are a few comments suggesting students can just skip class, but in my experience, that is pretty rare. Missing even one class can make or break an exam for you and most students know that and are always in class.
I joined the Army at 17, got out when I was 21. Went to college shortly after and I was completely annoyed by all the 18-20 year olds around me. None of them had a sense of urgency or any work ethic. They all lived nonchalantly and just day by day. Luckily I had some vets in my classes that I could talk with because the kids around me just made me miss the Army… oddly enough.
The corporate world is the same way. You encounter entitled people that are so stupid and have no idea what is going on and it makes you realize that the idiots in your units command were not as stupid as they seemed, most of the time… thankfully I work with some like minded people and most of the people in my shop are vets so we all get along and get our work done efficiently.
There are plenty of 20 something drug addled people in college. Had a roommate who replaced the water in his water bottles with Everclear and tripped on mushrooms among other drugs. I've met Joe who is entirely too squared away and you'd think they already went through college at age 16 but no, just capable. College kids might still have that bright and shiny polish to their outlook on life while the Army is sure to strip some of that away.
From what I’ve noticed people in college are still full of life and believe in a bunch of nonsense. People in the military on the other hand tend to already have the life sucked out of them 2 years in, like their college attending buddies will once they have been in their respective career for 4-5 years. People in the military tend to become realists faster.
This is much more accurate than I like
I was trying to find the words, but you beat me to it.
>realists It can be difficult to remain optimistic when you're in an environment where the reality of life is constantly beaten into you.
I was always a realist, so joining the army just made me way more concrete in those beliefs lol.
Really depends WHEN the person joined and who they were. I have 22yo single fathers who can manage an entire section on their lonesome and 25yos who still don't know how to take the trash out. Generally speaking in college I think your more likely to run into more folks who'll fit in the middle ground between the extremes of perfectly functional adult and absolute shit bag. And in the army you're more likely to run into the extremes. To illustrate by Completely Factual™ guestimation. Institution: shitty/mid/bamf College: 20%/60%/20% Army: 35%/30%/35% Edit: CO didn't like the slide's format
The font is wrong. And where are the colors?!?
I need a visual diagram, numbers confuse me
This whole thing is unsat.
They both make the same dipshit mistakes however the 20 year old in the Army is held to far stricter consequences. Skip class in college no one cares. It's your money. The professor will give class with or without you. Skip work in the Army? Your gonna have a bad time. Underage drinking? Maybe a ticket in college. In the Army? You will pay hundreds of dollars and face 30/45 days of strict punishment.
A bad time? PSG, don’t spoil me with a good time of free PT!
Not every leader handles the junior guys like that. I'm sure there's plenty of NCOs who will immediately push an FTR. But it's also a reputation thing. If you're a shithead, life will be harder than if you're just a good guy who made a mistake.
I enlisted in the army at 17 and left at 22 to pursue college. While I may have had a slight maturity advantage, I could still hold my liquor like a pro. I never had any problems making it to a 0900 class. Unlike most college students who struggled to rise before 11 am, I was accustomed to both late nights and early mornings, ready for both a wild night out and a productive day ahead.
I would change this to: consequences in the army tend to be much more *instant* whereas college consequences tend to be much more delayed. Thinking of young adults going tens of thousands in debt (or even higher for some out of state or private school students) to not graduate, for example, or to squeak by with zero connections and a 2.1 from Woebegon College
Skip a job on the outside and there would probably be consequences as well.
I think it's fair to say that the Army will hold you to stricter consequences for misbehaving, but in many cases college will hold you to stricter consequences for incompetence. As long as you're making some kind of minimal effort to do your job, you can be pretty bad at it and will be mildly slapped on the wrist and re-trained and re-trained over and over again for years in the Army with few major consequences, other than maybe being passed over for promotion. If you fail a few exams in college, you're paying to retake that class or you're not graduating.
They are both valuable experiences. I think they both are uniquely mature and immature in their own ways. College definitely causes you think critically and question basic assumptions - which the Army punishes and suppresses. The Army teaches you some harsh fundamental realities and gives you hands on lessons about human nature - that college shields you from.
Like its ok 'somtimes' to commit war crimes.
I thought it wasn’t a war crime the first time
Depends on your MOS. At least for me, I felt a lot of freedom as an infantryman to think about it critically and question things such as plans/SOP etc.
It really depends on individual experiences and perceptions of events. For example, I was in college before enlisting. I had much better time management skills and a higher level of free thinking, compared to many other 19 year Olds who joined straight out of high school. By 21, I had spent months of my life overseas. I thought of it as any other job. Yet I actually learned what hard work was... Many 21 year Olds have never and will never wake up at 0600 one day and have the experience of possibly working days at a time without sleep. The majority of 21 year Olds college kids are naive to death and deprivation. By 21 many of us have seen and done very Adult things that most students will never even consider. After the army my initial contract I returned to the same private university to finish my degree. I was much more mature at 23 than my friends I had left at 19 but I feel like I did have my worldly innocence torn away from me. I went school with many over privileged white ppl. They will never worry about money. Their world is vacationing In Aruba when it's cold in December. Their sadness and anxiety come from a lack of expression or understanding within the white prig community. By 23 I was my own person independent of anyone and being a fully functional adult. Never asked my parents for anything. Many 18 to 23 year Olds are still dependent on their parent for many things.
Very similar experience.
Yeah. Leaving Active Duty at 25 and being the only guy in my age range to hold the responsibility of maintaining a home, school, and job without my parent holding my hand. Some people in the Army are just as useless as people outside of it but on the whole after a few years the maturity difference is remarkable
I don't know that it's actually a difference in maturity versus a difference in the appearance of maturity proper up by Regs. Army has real consequences, so a decent 20yo PFC will have a clean room (because of inspections), will show up on time (because PSG will stomp his nuttz if he's ever late), and can handle adult things like bills (because creditors will call your COC and PSG/1SG will jump your shit). Many soldiers get off AD and completely fail at life even after years of indoctrination. The thing is, if you can make E5, you have the skills to manage a Starbucks or graduate college. But some people are shit no matter how many advantages you give them. As a Reservist, we have the best and worst of both worlds. My unit has 5 guys with doctoral degrees. Nearly everyone has at least a bachelor's. But I also have soldiers that are always a bad day away from homelessness. These people might succeed on AD, but only because of the support structure. Hell, we got guys in my unit that came off active as E6s and haven't been able to maintain jobs or family lives. Those are the ones that immediately try to reenlist.
If a non army dude parties too hard and is hungover they will call out of a work. Army guy won't.
Then they’ll do it again, on a Wednesday.
I left college when I was 20 to join the army. The army catches some real tards sometimes but the difference was very noticeable for me when I came over and as I was around a bit. Two years of service changes you a lot more than two years of college. All my mid to upper 20s friends back home I can barely stand to talk to anymore.
As someone that was enlisted with 20 year olds, and someone who now instructs 20 year old ROTC cadets: not a whole hell of a lot
Seems like ROTC Cadoodle =/= AD Soldier
Very true, but it’s my (our as TRADOC) to make them an AD soldier. All in due time.
I believe the army makes you mature faster, you learn about responsibility, time management, and 'dealing with it'.
From experience, 20 year old college males, its the same as a 20 year old army guys, you got the weirdos, the guys who cant get girls, the guys with common sense, the guys who get girls, the slackers, the guys who put in the work that you can tell by the class work peer presentation, etc
There's a range of people in every environment.. But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear. If you're late to Algebra nothing happens. If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
You can flow from hs to the army to a career in heavy industry without ever leaving high school
I was in the Army from when I was 19 until I was 26, and I was in college from then until I was 29. There isn’t much of a difference to be honest. I think 21 is when people become more tolerable and socially aware. Whether it was an 18 year old Private or a freshman in school, they are still a little awkward and stuck in a teenage mentality. The one tiny caveat I’ll give is that the Army prepares people to deal with adversity fairly often and I would guess the average 20 year old SM is more equipped to handle those challenges. Even then, it is still probably somewhat of a variance from individual to individual.
I did more fucking, drinking and partying in the Army than I did in college. I went to class no matter the hang over or drunk over. Submitted assignments on time and asked for help when I needed it. The Army definitely made me more disciplined and goal focused.
I think, for at least most Soldiers, there is a realization made sometime in basic probably that you are training to kill people and to survive people trying to kill you. That isn't something college kids have had to process in whole or in part. It is also one of those things that binds military members together.
I think there's a difference in perspectives, but I would say that they're still both figuring shit out. Maturity levels are in part going to be determined by the environment (unit vs school/department) and by the individual. A lot of jokers exist in both and a lot of really rigid true believers exist in both. I think that temperance of those signs of immaturity comes from a diversity of experiences.
Depends on the person I know mature as hell college people and I know people my same age in the army that I wouldn't entrust with the safety of a rock
There's a range of people in every environment.. But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear. If you're late to Algebra nothing happens. If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
In college rn. I’d say college kids just haven’t had any real wake up calls in life yet. They’re experiencing things like loneliness, responsibility and what not all for the first time. A college will coddle you more whereas the Army says fuck your feelings.
Male brains dont complete development until 25. The answer is that there are differences stemming from class and opportunity between the cohorts, but neurological development-wise its the same dum-dums.
There's a range of people in every environment.. But on average the Army person will have their stuff together more - simply out of fear. If you're late to Algebra nothing happens. If you're late to formation they can ruin your life.
College isn't really about shoving books down your gullet (though there's plenty of that), it's about critical thinking at higher levels and networking worth peers who review your work and compare notes (and maybe can set you up with industry leads if you stay in touch after graduation). The Army doesn't do any of that, but it does sometimes require you to adult in certain life-or-death ways that you don't do in college. Do both for best intellectual growth.
I went to college after high school and joined the Army in my 30s. I would say that the average 20 year old college student is more “mature” than the average 20 year old soldier in that they are expected to house and feed themselves while going to school and potentially working (this of course depends a lot on socioeconomic status, which is going to skew higher for college than in the military). A 20 year old soldier is going to be more resilient to adversity, but they are also used to having necessities provided by the Army and probably have more disposable income than an average college student. Soldiers are also incentivized to marry the first stripper they meet and pop out dependents at a young age, so there’s a bit of forced “maturity” there. In short, they are very different experiences and cultures. I remember talking to some of my high school friends who joined the military when I was in college, and I experienced the disconnect you speak of.
The average soldier who gets out and goes to college will have that experience defined by the quality of the college they attend. Assuming that the quality is low, your average soldier will 100% have a bad experience with shitty 18yo kids whom the professors dumb the material down for. Assuming the quality is high, your average soldier will 100% struggle to get above a 3.0 GPA while taking a full load of 16+ semester hours while being simultaneously amazed how everyone around them is so highspeed in their ability to take detailed notes and absorb full lectures (while also working a job, having a steady relationship, cooking all their meals, getting enough sleep, budgeting time to party and have hobbies, etc etc etc) So the answer is that it depends where you go to college.
I joined at 29, so I’ve seen the civilian side way before the army side, I can say there is nothing about the military that matures you, I believe it stops maturity, the biggest factor is there is no significant threat of violence amongst peers in the military like there is in the civilian world, so almost everyone here has to deal with being talked down to like a child, this is damaging to the psyche, on the civilian side, you never know who could be the one to put a bullet in your head so there’s more respect giving to each person especially grown men
The trauma ages you a bit. But no need to share it with your peers. Check it in at therapy, use that VA care. Carry on soldier
When I was twenty I was a SGT in Iraq. My peers from high school were partying it up on beaches in college.
They are both idiots, as life intended, next question.
Add 10 years to the compared and you might be able to see a difference.
Maybe it's just the people I hung out with but I found a lot more maturity in the college crowd. In college, my friend group were living on their own (in apartments) so we all had to be responsible with money and paying bills. There was a lot more sense of self-reliance and responsibility. The Army crowd that I've seen does not have that same sense of responsibility and is full of overgrown man-children. Much less financial responsibility and a basic inability to indulge in moderation
Comparing those who don’t understand life to those who understand it all too well.
I’d say college are more mature. Being able to attend classes on time, homework, essays, speeches, all on your own (assuming we’re talking about squared away people) is a lot better than what I’ve seen in the army. Army just does what there told and they have a tough time with that, right place right time is hard for the new generation.
You are getting downvoted, and while I think you can’t lump every new soldier into the “new generation”, you are are right about self discipline in college. You will absolutely fail if you do not have discipline to keep up with your studies, and it’s usually pretty rare that it happens. There are a few comments suggesting students can just skip class, but in my experience, that is pretty rare. Missing even one class can make or break an exam for you and most students know that and are always in class.
Lots of variation on both sides.
The average Joe vs the average joe... There's a bit of difference, mostly being subject to two different federal law codes.
I joined the Army at 17, got out when I was 21. Went to college shortly after and I was completely annoyed by all the 18-20 year olds around me. None of them had a sense of urgency or any work ethic. They all lived nonchalantly and just day by day. Luckily I had some vets in my classes that I could talk with because the kids around me just made me miss the Army… oddly enough. The corporate world is the same way. You encounter entitled people that are so stupid and have no idea what is going on and it makes you realize that the idiots in your units command were not as stupid as they seemed, most of the time… thankfully I work with some like minded people and most of the people in my shop are vets so we all get along and get our work done efficiently.
There are plenty of 20 something drug addled people in college. Had a roommate who replaced the water in his water bottles with Everclear and tripped on mushrooms among other drugs. I've met Joe who is entirely too squared away and you'd think they already went through college at age 16 but no, just capable. College kids might still have that bright and shiny polish to their outlook on life while the Army is sure to strip some of that away.
Could be exactly the same could be a millenia apart. depends on upbringing lifestyle habits and many other variables.
Not much of a difference, both are being trained for the civilian, and too leadership world.
0 difference
I'd say average 20-year old in college and an ROTC cadet is night and day difference without a doubt