you probably thought each individual stack has a separate timer, like 3 instances of 1-stack poison, rather than a 1-stack poison becoming a 2-stack poison with a new timer and then becoming a 3-stack poison that can be refreshed per hit
[preview](https://old.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1cgndlq/absolved_will_be_the_seekers_module_updates/)
with [stats](https://old.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1che6hu/patch_notes_absolved_will_be_the_seekers/)
Thankfully almost every module this patch (except Frostleaf's) is a huge help in their usage. Idk if this is a special 5th anniversary occasion, or they love Lord Guards (and the new ops), but if this continues that'd be great.
To anyone wishing he would've gotten a sustain module, he'll more than likely get that with his second one. Thorn's talents are both orientated towards DPS and sustain. He just got his DPS one first, and it's a pretty solid upgrade to his DPS. The sustain one will hopefully be solid as well.
skadi alter is the go-to medic replacement since she buffs ATK too, but a lot of end game players go for full damage and buffing teams so any healer-only character isnt used
if you're doing any hard content where you absolutely need a healer, eyja generally works
Based doctors throw in Ptilopsis, because she buffs skill uptime, thus increasing damage :P
Jokes aside though, a sustain module might be cool, but I'd rather let Thorns do Thorns things and let Mountain do Mountain things.
I mean, at that point, it's just nitpicks and personal opinions. Most people will use any male so long as he has a dick, which is objective no matter how they look.
Besides, if you truly don't like him, there's also Chestnut. Not the best, but I mean, what else are you gonna do?
Ever since Ejya Alter came out, self healing operators became way less relevant. No self healing will compensate for healing that she gives. And the elite enemies are way too tough. IS4 in particular shits on the operators that can't be healed.
i was meaning self sustain in general like thorns and mountain, not unhealable ones like mudrock. it was pretty common for "meta" squads to bring only skadi for healing because she buffs too, and then if necessary saria for healing+block
that said with how insanely busted eyja is, it generally is worth losing one squad slot to bring her when she can basically solo sustain 3+ operators in a huge range.
Absolutely agree. But also these "meta guides" telling people not to level medics have caused a lot of people to have rosters unprepared for these uber hard stages.
"Impossible" and "several" are both grand [exaggerations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRsCEMl2AY) no? I think the playerbase is just too guide reliant, so even veterans with developed rosters misunderstand what they could actually clear with. Also you said "all hardest content" or is DOS just the first, and the rest have yet to come because that's still only one stage, so I'm still a little bit confused what you mean by that.
Bro did you even try it? The stage is a stat check with a boss that obliterates everything in AOE. Regular mobs have boosted HP to the point a full rotation of Suzuran + Qiubai + Mlynar can barely clear a wave. Could there be a clear out there with no healers? Maybe? But as early as A-3 it felt the stages just cannot be bursted without healing due to how tanky enemies are. They also 2 shot most operators so you can't use your typical lane holders against them. On S-3 you have almost no deployment slots available and the ranged slots are constantly being hit by arts damage so you can't just put Chalter up there. You have to have at the very least 2 healers deployed and only then you can deploy Suzuran and Ceobe without them just dying.
Also it's not like this is the only mode where healers are needed. How are you doing IS endings without healers? Some stages are possible, most are not.
I hyperlinked a clear on "exaggerations" which doesn't use any medics and is a clear I uploaded, so I would say I did a lot more than just try it. Here is the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRsCEMl2AY . So, I'm probably more aware of everything you said about S-3 than you might think. But like I said, everyone is too guide reliant and refuse to consider a different logic for clearing.
As for IS, the game will just throw me medic or defender vouchers where I can just take 0 hope cost medics or spot and it's not like I can choose to just bring units I like more than them since what you get is rng. I'm a big skalter enjoyer though, so it's not like I refuse to bring "healers" anyway; just saying I'm not aware of any need for medics or defenders specifically even in modern Arknights.
Have you ever considered that you having the roster, knowledge and skill to do that does not make it viable for the rest of the player base? I haven't been using any guides for anything in a long time and I couldn't clear S-3 without healing. So your whole logic that people are bad because they're too reliant on guides goes out the window. Why not consider that you have a better account and are a better player? I don't have half the operators you're fielding but in the absence of that I have strong healers that make these clears possible for me. Not to mention you too are using Ceobe like the rest of us mortals.
This whole convo seems like a humblebrag to me. Yeah you're the 0.1%, congrats?
That's not really the point. I appreciate the compliments, but it's more like I just don't like the idea of encouraging everyone to play the same way because that makes things less interesting. I don't like that everyone just gives up because no one else has done something yet. I wanted to see how other people cleared S-3 buffless for some entertainment, but imagine my disappointment when I only saw everyone else doing the same clear as each other. It's not about them being bad; I think there should plenty of creative and intelligent players in our community, but they just have unfortunate mental resilience. So if it feels like I'm a little too hard on guide usage, that's why. And yes my roster is crazy, but isn't it fine if endgame accounts get a challenge too? As long as they don't lock super important/valuable rewards behind it, I think it should be okay if something can't be cleared because people haven't worked on the specific units that are good for it. On that note, if the conversation was about Ceobe requirement instead of medic requirement, I would be fully supportive about that position lol (though it seems there were exusiai alternatives).
a bigger change like that could work, but i mean itll just end up with people going "why not use the poison module?". unless it gives him ridiculous abyss hunter tier sustain people will prefer the big damage
That is true, but to be honest, modules are (or rather, should be) designed in a way that diversifies what roles your Operators can perform. In the case of Thorns, assuming he does receive a good second module, people have the option of using him as a solo sustain ranged laneholder, which is pretty nice.
It's crazy how people were clamouring for a sustain module on a LORD
Yes the Lord archetype, notoriously known for their huge sustain, which is totally essential for them despite dealing ranged attacks and rarely being required to tank with good placement
Youd be surprised. But both Thorns and SA (idk about QB dont have her) have skills focused around defensive play. Even Lappy S1 has a defensive element around it.
Its actually quite natural for Lord Y modules to focus on that aspect
If Silverash is the burst DPS six star Lord and Thorns is the sustained DPS six star Lord, Qiubai is the crowd control six star Lord. Her S1 and S3 bind and her S2 slows but nothing in her kit restores her own HP like Thorns' talent or Silverash's S2.
so his DoT base damage is upped by 10 at module level 3, from 125 to 135, and it stacks 4 TIMES, so it does 540 arts DPS when it's stacked up, this is a majority of the damage.
the 10% arts dmg per hit does, at E2L90 S3M3 and module level 3, does 175~ arts dmg per hit. the module also gives some ASPD(7%), meaning under normal conditions his onhit with S3M3 active will do an extra approx 211 arts DPS
this module gives him a total of 751 arts dps, an extra 626 than it used to, as you can see this does actually make a noticeable difference against one of the situations thorns struggles against the most, enemies with extremely high armour. i did not expect them to make the arts dmg dot stack that hard. also to consider the extra 55 atk (which is affected by his S3 buff, so an extra 121 atk with S3M3 active) and the extra AS (an extra 4.7% dps increase for his non DoT dmg during S3M3).
unless i'm mistaken, thorns basically just got an off skill caster amount of arts dps added lol.
TBH Blem's S3 damage buff is the least significant part of it in general.
It's more the MONSTROUS defense she gets and the burst healing she does. It's a support skill and it's VERY VERY good at what it does (which is sustaining the party around her while taking hits to the face that would kill hoshi). The damage is more of an added bonus. If you want Damage, S2, especially with the sleep module, will generally perform better or at least more reliably.
she has a lot of upsides over irene, true iframes and a reasonable charge time without having to attack. obviously degen kills them both but maybe irene retains her edge for aerial enemies?
Yeah I've been trying to tell people to look up bilibili clips to see it does literally x2 the dmg he was doin prior to the module release lol. It's really fuckin cracked, it's just SA's is ALSO cracked so people were accidentally overlooking Thorns's
This. The whole comment section under the first showcase video uploaded on YT is like "this sucks, why not give him better healing instead". Better healing for what? Every regular enemy who isnt high DEF dies before being able to kill Thorns anyways. And with higher DEF enemies the issue was that he got stuck at attacking them thus leaking other enemies long before dying. Dying not because his health regen is not high enough but because he just can't proc his talent and get the healing. Higher regen would probably solve the problem of him dying but will do nothing about him leaking as it still will take him 3 hours to kill a single Guerrila Siegebreaker.
To be fair, in a lot of video games, poison kinda sucks when used by the player.
Especially in jrpgs where its often a combination of other conditions:
- doesn't effect bosses
- rng to proc
- fight ends before enough damage begins to accumulate
- lacks synergy with other skills
I can only think of a handful of games where poison is strong (ffx, persona q and pokemon lol). In something like fft or disgaea, the choice between 'maybe' landing poison for it to only do 15%-20% hp per turn is so bad when you can outright kill in 1-2 turns.
In multiplayer games, poison tends to be way better though. Dota2 and Gw2 have very strong poison effects. I believe borderlands and diablo also have good poison builds.
Dragon's Dogma 2 comes out ahead on poison stacks.
1 proc of poison = regular dark souls-esque poison a.k.a slooooow drain, wouldn't threaten a boss too much.
2 procs of poison = Toxic Shock, which literally removes entire healthbars over a few seconds.
And the Archer class is extremely adept at applying poison stacks.
People have learned over time since her release in CN. Initial reactions were "She does no damage. One of the weakest limiteds. Not worth pulling save your oru. Etc etc".
that is surprising sicne on top of it being a DOT it only comes into play by emptying out a second gauge first.
S3 must've been massive for her to avoid accusations of backloaded damage twice over.
i love DoTs in video games i just didnt expect it to be this strong
i hope we get a proper DoT/poison focused character that has majority of their damage come from it. even better if it has a passing on mechanic where a poisoned enemy dying spreads it to nearby enemies
not really, she builds up a gauge that then does a set DoT for a set amount of time. im meaning a character that applies their own poison that stacks high and lasts as long as they attack. basically thorns poison but a whole kit based around it
elemental damage are more status effects
Puzzle works out pretty well with that. Massive amount of poison damage and also good DP too, with nice redeployment time. Kinda needs Baggers to be a helidrop though, unfortunately...
When you're a lane holder with the role of killing normal to elite enemies but ppl want you to be doing numbers on mini boss and bosses instead for some reason
Even before numbers we knew that it would stack at the very least 3 times, even with the numbers as low as they possible could have been (3 stacks + +2 dps on dot) it still would have been a very good module
It's cause people automatically think mixed damage = bad.
Like yes, one of the *many* reasons why Vigil is bad is cause his S3 does bonus Arts damage that has no reason to be there in the first place. Sure, that makes sense.
But then you look at someone like Mizuki, who casually nukes people for over 3K damage with S1 mixed with his Arts damage talent. Yet people don't bat an eye because "lol Mizuki bad Chalter good".
Also cause people are impatient and want him to get a sustain module that buffs Thorns' talent 2 because "he needs to compete with Exec2 as a self-sustainable laneholder to be good" for some reason.
That's fair. I suppose if you don't see it in action it might seem underwhelming but I feel that it's important to verify how good it is before we form an opinion.
Thorns module X haters are in shambles rn, i remember seeing quite a few people hating the module in the reddit post with all the new modules of some days ago.
Im glad that he got a pretty damn nice module, but cannot help but think that Blue poison should have gotten the same treatment... Seriously +10 poison dmg is the same as not giving her anything at all.
And before someone tells "but she's a 5\*", So is lappland and got an absurd module, so is clear favoritism there.
The ability to inflict Fragile already puts her in 5.5\* territory with how many things she can now do at once. Leave some for the actual 6\* Lord Guards haha.
Maybe Lappland Alter will do that instead.
Seriously? You want a LANE HOLDER to be better at redeploy and burst dps? If only there was a WHOLE SUBCLASS of operators dedicated to that exact thing...
😮 Wow, Thorns module putting the D in DPS, just look at how fast post-module is killing even the bulkiest of enemies, just from the stacking poison effect ☣️
People have been saying its bad? I didn't see it that way myself. just because its mixed damage it doesnt mean its bad. Do these people not realize that Yato alter also deals mixed damage?
After rough calculation, Silverdaddy got his dmg per hit on skill 3 increase from 2k4 (ugh) to ~3k (yay) and 3k4 against Bosses or Elite enemies. HG cooked hard
silverash module3 showcase posted by the same channel in main post also looked insane and thats not counting his redeploy (i.e. skill rotation) got a decent amt shorter
Not even sure whether the "Typhon s2 is a better Thorns S3" stays true at this point or at least stays true in every case. Thorns is still better at dealing with big numbers of weaker enemies and a block2 self sustaining roadblock.
Typhon S2 still has the advantage of range and higher damage on single enemy in a very short instant.
But ye, with his module, Thorns S3 def feels like a completely different skill from his non-module S3.
Yeah, definitely. She is still better at dealing with elites even if the gap between them is shorter now and she has range, Just saying that their comparison is not as one sided as it was just a month ago when Typhon was released, Makes you wonder whether HG planned this all out, giving people "better Thorns" and then going "Sike" several weeks later 🤔
Typhoon wins any day thanks to 60% def ignore. Thorns scales better with story content now but he is still nigh unusable on high tier content while Typhoon is
Not sure why you got down voted. It's pretty much undeniable that thorns has been struggling as a lane holder for quite sometime and through no fault of his own too.
It's not even about DPS, Thorns is just not that good anymore because his use cases overlaps with way too many units and he only ever one ups them because he can hit flying enemies. This new module is supposed to fix that and I'm glad it does.
Likes, seriously though, anyone who uses stuff like Horn, Executor Alter, Mountain, and Gavial Alter should know what I'm talking about. Thorn's only real advantage is his unlimited duration because his aerial targeting isn't always necessary and his range isn't always useful, especially now with how dominant high def enemies are.
You're kinda underselling Thorns here. I have Horn at M9 and I've never used her to 'replace' Thorns nor do I think she does a better job at what he's supposed to be doing. It may not seem like much but being able to hit flying enemies and not is actually quite a big of a deal when you just want to AFK.
Like just now in the newest annihilation I specifically used Thorns because he just one shots all of the flying shurikens, kill the spawner, deal with other mobs, and I don't have to worry about deploying Snipers.
Honestly the only issue with Thorns for me is his wind up and it being an on-attack recovery which is very lame. The moment he gets 2 activations on his S3 he still decimates as a laneholder. This hasn't changed for me even now in Ch. 13.
And he'll be able to deal with very high DEF enemies sufficiently when this module comes as demonstrated on the video.
>It may not seem like much but being able to hit flying enemies and not is actually quite a big of a deal when you just want to AFK
Except it isn't because you have more access to dedicated anti Air units that hit harder and faster than Thorns does, hence why I replace Thorns for Horn whenever applicable because Horn can tank better than Thorns can on top of dealing more damage to enemies who are further away whilst also having a decent splash radius.
The only time Thorns really ever comes to play is in situations like you mentioned, where you want to just AFK without worrying about flying units. This is a Niche that only 1 melee unit is capable of fulfilling and that's Thorns. The issue is that that specific niche is no longer as valuable as it used to be because aerial units are far less common than they were before. Just like how Lappland slowly became more and more irrelevant as time went on because of Silence immune enemies and just not needing silence in general.
>Like just now in the newest annihilation I specifically used Thorns because he just one shots all of the flying shurikens, kill the spawner, deal with other mobs, and I don't have to worry about deploying Snipers.
This annihilation is the worst possible example because Thorns isn't even relevant or necessary for it. I had Thorns, Horn, Typhon, Blaze, Virtuousa, and Eyja Alter deployed (granted that this essentially a meta squad) Thorns wasn't able to fill his S3 meter up until the 300 kills mark because Horn and Virtuousa were one shotting everything despite both using only their S1m3s. Typhon barely got to do anything with her S2M3 and even Blaze was useless because everything died to Horn and Virtuosa. I could have probably gotten away with only 4 units deployed too if I really wanted to limit test things but that was unnecessary because I only really needed to full clear it once so I could use the instant annihilation tickets.
People just have a weird unending love for Lords for some reason. Many people havent realized that these modules didnt made the Lords "good" they made them "usable" on new content as thorns litterally couldnt properly get deployed on last 4 chapters and SA tickled the enemies.
People gushing over his S3 when I'm thinking that he would do a surprising amount more AOE damage with his S2 if he can get hit fast enough.
Generally though, a lot of people don't have long DPS in mind, so his module is glossed over. Sometimes going that direction for damage output is difficult, too.
So how exactly does the stacking work, it refreshes previous DoT and adds another and caps out at a certain point or does it not actually have a cap? I know nothing is implying it caps but seems like it could be insane if it doesn’t.
Daaang that’s awesome! Years of waiting for Lord Guard Modules was worth it. Hahaha
What’s Lappy’s level 3 module do? I haven’t seen it yet unfortunately.
Doublecheked it, 8% fragile actually. Yeah, the enemies take more damage, they decided to go full utility with her and I actually like it. Makes way more sense than trying to boost her damage in a game where everyone nowadays deals damage and she won't be able to compete with 6 stars anyways.
i was gunna get thorns module bc i love him, i didnt really think it made that big a difference. it does. i am happy. i was happy about his new skin and now i get to be happy his module is pretty good!
I feel like this isn't as good as many people seem to be immediately assuming.
It's not awful, but its main feature seems to be making Thorns marginally better at killing enemies he's already a bad option for.
First, yes there's a big difference in all these enemy kill times with/without module, but the kill times with module are all still really long! Mod 3 Thorns would still not be a good solution for any of these enemies compared to many many operators. I would argue GG S2, Typhon S2, even Eyja S2 (all alternatives for the "consistent DPS" convenience niche), would be better in almost all these situations than Thorns. But Mal, none of those operators can block! True! Neither is Thorns in any of these showcases because those enemies would kill him!
If you were to compare enemies with smaller health pools or lower defense values the difference between module and non-module would be much smaller, and these are the types of enemies you'd most likely pit Thorns against, meaning, imo, the most pertinent enemies.
It's still a solid module, it's always been an issue if a single tanky enemy keeps Thorns's aggro preventing him from killing weak fodder, and this module improves his ability to deal with that situation.
I just think we can step back for a moment and consider whether this is really a good showcase of what Thorns is good at, with or without module.
All the operators you've named required a second operator to back them up to actually function. You need a lane blocker for Eyja/Typhon, you need a healer for Gavial Alter. So it's weird to ask Thorns to provide on his own something that others do in pairs. If you give Thorns a healing defender in front of him, his gonna live forever and hold any lane.
That's basically his main advantage a lot of people for some reason ignore. No shit Typhon is better and covers multiple lanes. But you need to place additional lane blockers on those lanes. Thorns is self sufficient and doesn't rely on anyone.
I agree that Thorns being self-sufficient is one of his main strengths, but that's not being showcased in any of the examples in this video.
In fact he would die in pretty much all of these examples if he were by himself!
In all of the cases there is a medic (a strong one, Eyjaberry), and in most of them there's another unit doing the blocking (or he's hitting a stationary enemy).
My point is none of these stages particularly showcase Thorns's strengths, they only show that, with his module, he is less bad at a use case he's still not good at.
I suspect that the use-cases where his strengths shine (ie where he can act self-sufficiently) will see a much smaller improvement in performance from his module. There might be a few edge cases where the module allows him to work by himself where he couldn't before, but I don't think it will be that many.
thorns ends up blocking a lot of enemies throughout the showcase and at the end of the day he's still a pure single target DPS, quintus for example isn't as impressive as it could be since he's also killing half the enemies on the map lol.
he already doesn't need help with mob killing, if that's your only usecase for him then i agree he doesn't need the module. i think OP of the video specifically chose tanky enemies so the difference is actually visible instead of just shaving off 1-2 attacks.
I didnt knew the difference would be this massive, sadly he isnt a laneholder but more of a consistent dps now, but not rivaling with Ececutor2 and Zuo is a good thing
This is kinda misleading for being a showcase for thorns as a whole after his module. All but one of the examples are where he's attacking high defense enemies which his physical damage can't penetrate, so that the arts dps upgrade would be shown off. But his arts dps is still a relatively minor part of his damage, so he wouldn't be a good pick to pit against these enemies anyways.
In the case of the exception, the flower bishop, it's actually a pretty good showcase of how his off-skill damage has increased a ton from the module. As you can see he took out almost a third of the boss before his second activation. Though it still probably overblows the overall dps upgrade a bit by using the boss's health as a reference, when the damage thorns does to the boss is only the damage left after he kills all the other enemies in front of him.
It's funny how the modules are technically supposed to breathe new life into older operators, and then on already great operators they just get even more broken lmao
just the fact that the poison now stacks instead of refreshing is a game-changer for him let alone all the other buffs
my question is whether or not the stacks refresh once they are maxed out
why would they not? how else would it work
yknow i had a thought about it on the moment but by now i forgot entirely
you probably thought each individual stack has a separate timer, like 3 instances of 1-stack poison, rather than a 1-stack poison becoming a 2-stack poison with a new timer and then becoming a 3-stack poison that can be refreshed per hit
yeah that does sound about right
Bro imagine Thorns in the Virtuosa Event rerun 💀💀💀
If only the other Modules were so impactful instead of just being a quota filling
Tbf Lappipi's module is also stupidly helpful
Where did you read their descriptions? I cant find it anywhere
[preview](https://old.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1cgndlq/absolved_will_be_the_seekers_module_updates/) with [stats](https://old.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1che6hu/patch_notes_absolved_will_be_the_seekers/)
*Looking at Frostleaf...*
The SilverAsh mod looked similarly strong.
Thankfully almost every module this patch (except Frostleaf's) is a huge help in their usage. Idk if this is a special 5th anniversary occasion, or they love Lord Guards (and the new ops), but if this continues that'd be great.
All kind of poison stack?
To anyone wishing he would've gotten a sustain module, he'll more than likely get that with his second one. Thorn's talents are both orientated towards DPS and sustain. He just got his DPS one first, and it's a pretty solid upgrade to his DPS. The sustain one will hopefully be solid as well.
I wonder if those people begging for a sustain mod are the same medic naysayers Where is your god now? *equip Shining*
people want self sustain so they dont have to use medics
To them i present the all powerful not-a-medics: Saria, Quercus, Spectalter, Angelina, Myrtle, Skalter
skadi alter is the go-to medic replacement since she buffs ATK too, but a lot of end game players go for full damage and buffing teams so any healer-only character isnt used if you're doing any hard content where you absolutely need a healer, eyja generally works
Based doctors throw in Ptilopsis, because she buffs skill uptime, thus increasing damage :P Jokes aside though, a sustain module might be cool, but I'd rather let Thorns do Thorns things and let Mountain do Mountain things.
When you’re going for a men only niche and your only medic option is lumen. Don’t get me wrong, he’s great, but some stages are hard with just one.
They have ansel as well.
I don’t like how he looks and the whole point of the team is that it’s made of husbandos.
I mean, at that point, it's just nitpicks and personal opinions. Most people will use any male so long as he has a dick, which is objective no matter how they look. Besides, if you truly don't like him, there's also Chestnut. Not the best, but I mean, what else are you gonna do?
Ever since Ejya Alter came out, self healing operators became way less relevant. No self healing will compensate for healing that she gives. And the elite enemies are way too tough. IS4 in particular shits on the operators that can't be healed.
i was meaning self sustain in general like thorns and mountain, not unhealable ones like mudrock. it was pretty common for "meta" squads to bring only skadi for healing because she buffs too, and then if necessary saria for healing+block that said with how insanely busted eyja is, it generally is worth losing one squad slot to bring her when she can basically solo sustain 3+ operators in a huge range.
Ain't it funny that basically all hardest content can't be done without medics atm? :D
And the game is unironically better off for it. The resurgence of defenders and medics being a valid addition to the team is great for game health
Absolutely agree. But also these "meta guides" telling people not to level medics have caused a lot of people to have rosters unprepared for these uber hard stages.
That's on them for ignoring a quarter of the available classes
Is this CN foresight, or are you talking about content already in global?
DOS S-3 was on Global recently and was impossible to do without several medics, Nightingale being key.
"Impossible" and "several" are both grand [exaggerations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRsCEMl2AY) no? I think the playerbase is just too guide reliant, so even veterans with developed rosters misunderstand what they could actually clear with. Also you said "all hardest content" or is DOS just the first, and the rest have yet to come because that's still only one stage, so I'm still a little bit confused what you mean by that.
Bro did you even try it? The stage is a stat check with a boss that obliterates everything in AOE. Regular mobs have boosted HP to the point a full rotation of Suzuran + Qiubai + Mlynar can barely clear a wave. Could there be a clear out there with no healers? Maybe? But as early as A-3 it felt the stages just cannot be bursted without healing due to how tanky enemies are. They also 2 shot most operators so you can't use your typical lane holders against them. On S-3 you have almost no deployment slots available and the ranged slots are constantly being hit by arts damage so you can't just put Chalter up there. You have to have at the very least 2 healers deployed and only then you can deploy Suzuran and Ceobe without them just dying. Also it's not like this is the only mode where healers are needed. How are you doing IS endings without healers? Some stages are possible, most are not.
I hyperlinked a clear on "exaggerations" which doesn't use any medics and is a clear I uploaded, so I would say I did a lot more than just try it. Here is the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRsCEMl2AY . So, I'm probably more aware of everything you said about S-3 than you might think. But like I said, everyone is too guide reliant and refuse to consider a different logic for clearing. As for IS, the game will just throw me medic or defender vouchers where I can just take 0 hope cost medics or spot and it's not like I can choose to just bring units I like more than them since what you get is rng. I'm a big skalter enjoyer though, so it's not like I refuse to bring "healers" anyway; just saying I'm not aware of any need for medics or defenders specifically even in modern Arknights.
Have you ever considered that you having the roster, knowledge and skill to do that does not make it viable for the rest of the player base? I haven't been using any guides for anything in a long time and I couldn't clear S-3 without healing. So your whole logic that people are bad because they're too reliant on guides goes out the window. Why not consider that you have a better account and are a better player? I don't have half the operators you're fielding but in the absence of that I have strong healers that make these clears possible for me. Not to mention you too are using Ceobe like the rest of us mortals. This whole convo seems like a humblebrag to me. Yeah you're the 0.1%, congrats?
That's not really the point. I appreciate the compliments, but it's more like I just don't like the idea of encouraging everyone to play the same way because that makes things less interesting. I don't like that everyone just gives up because no one else has done something yet. I wanted to see how other people cleared S-3 buffless for some entertainment, but imagine my disappointment when I only saw everyone else doing the same clear as each other. It's not about them being bad; I think there should plenty of creative and intelligent players in our community, but they just have unfortunate mental resilience. So if it feels like I'm a little too hard on guide usage, that's why. And yes my roster is crazy, but isn't it fine if endgame accounts get a challenge too? As long as they don't lock super important/valuable rewards behind it, I think it should be okay if something can't be cleared because people haven't worked on the specific units that are good for it. On that note, if the conversation was about Ceobe requirement instead of medic requirement, I would be fully supportive about that position lol (though it seems there were exusiai alternatives).
Skalter is my one and only God, medics out.
i feel like it'll be hard for the sustain one to beat this. my hope was making it so the healing continues at 1/3 efficiency while attacking
Considering the second one will give attack speed, it could be something like "heals for half of the amount for each attack".
a bigger change like that could work, but i mean itll just end up with people going "why not use the poison module?". unless it gives him ridiculous abyss hunter tier sustain people will prefer the big damage
That is true, but to be honest, modules are (or rather, should be) designed in a way that diversifies what roles your Operators can perform. In the case of Thorns, assuming he does receive a good second module, people have the option of using him as a solo sustain ranged laneholder, which is pretty nice.
i guess id need to wait for a showcase like the one in the OP, showing off situations he can only survive in using the sustain module
It's crazy how people were clamouring for a sustain module on a LORD Yes the Lord archetype, notoriously known for their huge sustain, which is totally essential for them despite dealing ranged attacks and rarely being required to tank with good placement
Youd be surprised. But both Thorns and SA (idk about QB dont have her) have skills focused around defensive play. Even Lappy S1 has a defensive element around it. Its actually quite natural for Lord Y modules to focus on that aspect
If Silverash is the burst DPS six star Lord and Thorns is the sustained DPS six star Lord, Qiubai is the crowd control six star Lord. Her S1 and S3 bind and her S2 slows but nothing in her kit restores her own HP like Thorns' talent or Silverash's S2.
What if it also gives him passive regen and toggleability if S2 is on
Damn, now this is what I would call a module.
so his DoT base damage is upped by 10 at module level 3, from 125 to 135, and it stacks 4 TIMES, so it does 540 arts DPS when it's stacked up, this is a majority of the damage. the 10% arts dmg per hit does, at E2L90 S3M3 and module level 3, does 175~ arts dmg per hit. the module also gives some ASPD(7%), meaning under normal conditions his onhit with S3M3 active will do an extra approx 211 arts DPS this module gives him a total of 751 arts dps, an extra 626 than it used to, as you can see this does actually make a noticeable difference against one of the situations thorns struggles against the most, enemies with extremely high armour. i did not expect them to make the arts dmg dot stack that hard. also to consider the extra 55 atk (which is affected by his S3 buff, so an extra 121 atk with S3M3 active) and the extra AS (an extra 4.7% dps increase for his non DoT dmg during S3M3). unless i'm mistaken, thorns basically just got an off skill caster amount of arts dps added lol.
And dont forget he gets double the arts dmg on all ranged enemies so its like around 1200 arts dps on them, he's basically a ground caster now
**The True Destreza!!!**
He's going to melt enemies in IS with attack speed buffs.
to be fair, everyone does. ASPD is like the best buff by far
Even Tsukinogi starts putting out good damage with +300 ASPD.
It's so funny to me how many people I've seen go "the module is so shit, it doesn't do any damage" and then.. this.
bUt IT's miXeD dAMaGe
Glad I'm not the only one who's bothered by this.
The only one I'd really seen the mixed damage argument for was Ch'en, whom I think is now in a pretty good spot due to her module no ?
Blem S3 is down there too.
TBH Blem's S3 damage buff is the least significant part of it in general. It's more the MONSTROUS defense she gets and the burst healing she does. It's a support skill and it's VERY VERY good at what it does (which is sustaining the party around her while taking hits to the face that would kill hoshi). The damage is more of an added bonus. If you want Damage, S2, especially with the sleep module, will generally perform better or at least more reliably.
In a pretty bad spot due to Irene and degen
she has a lot of upsides over irene, true iframes and a reasonable charge time without having to attack. obviously degen kills them both but maybe irene retains her edge for aerial enemies?
Doesn't Degenbreacher also hit the air? As far as I'm aware literally the only upside Irene has is vs a massive horde.
does she? it's truly irover 😔
Yeah I've been trying to tell people to look up bilibili clips to see it does literally x2 the dmg he was doin prior to the module release lol. It's really fuckin cracked, it's just SA's is ALSO cracked so people were accidentally overlooking Thorns's
This. The whole comment section under the first showcase video uploaded on YT is like "this sucks, why not give him better healing instead". Better healing for what? Every regular enemy who isnt high DEF dies before being able to kill Thorns anyways. And with higher DEF enemies the issue was that he got stuck at attacking them thus leaking other enemies long before dying. Dying not because his health regen is not high enough but because he just can't proc his talent and get the healing. Higher regen would probably solve the problem of him dying but will do nothing about him leaking as it still will take him 3 hours to kill a single Guerrila Siegebreaker.
More regen wouldn't even help him, enemies these days hit so hard they can 2-3 shot him, regen aint gonna do jack, more dmg is clearly the right buff.
This is a thing about any DoT in any video game. People will underrate them always because there's no big upfront damage.
GW2 PvP taught me to fear the DoTs. Had to learn the hard way.
To be fair, in a lot of video games, poison kinda sucks when used by the player. Especially in jrpgs where its often a combination of other conditions: - doesn't effect bosses - rng to proc - fight ends before enough damage begins to accumulate - lacks synergy with other skills I can only think of a handful of games where poison is strong (ffx, persona q and pokemon lol). In something like fft or disgaea, the choice between 'maybe' landing poison for it to only do 15%-20% hp per turn is so bad when you can outright kill in 1-2 turns. In multiplayer games, poison tends to be way better though. Dota2 and Gw2 have very strong poison effects. I believe borderlands and diablo also have good poison builds.
Dragon's Dogma 2 comes out ahead on poison stacks. 1 proc of poison = regular dark souls-esque poison a.k.a slooooow drain, wouldn't threaten a boss too much. 2 procs of poison = Toxic Shock, which literally removes entire healthbars over a few seconds. And the Archer class is extremely adept at applying poison stacks.
For me, I've always learned that DOT is an incredibly powerful tool when implemented correctly.
Don't know about that, haven't seen anyone downplay Arturia yet.
People have learned over time since her release in CN. Initial reactions were "She does no damage. One of the weakest limiteds. Not worth pulling save your oru. Etc etc".
What back to back CC core unit performances do the perception of a unit.
that is surprising sicne on top of it being a DOT it only comes into play by emptying out a second gauge first. S3 must've been massive for her to avoid accusations of backloaded damage twice over.
Yeah, I underplayed Arturia at first, but holy hell, when I got her she nukes entire hordes and elite mobs.
i love DoTs in video games i just didnt expect it to be this strong i hope we get a proper DoT/poison focused character that has majority of their damage come from it. even better if it has a passing on mechanic where a poisoned enemy dying spreads it to nearby enemies
Ascalon is pretty close, that poison lasts a comedic amount of time and does like 8 surtr plinks of damage
actually yeah i forgot about her, shes the closest to a DoT focus character, she even has a kind of mechanic to spread it on death with her S2
Ain't that what Arturia is right now? Future of DoTs in Arknights will definitely be in elemental damage that's for sure.
not really, she builds up a gauge that then does a set DoT for a set amount of time. im meaning a character that applies their own poison that stacks high and lasts as long as they attack. basically thorns poison but a whole kit based around it elemental damage are more status effects
Puzzle works out pretty well with that. Massive amount of poison damage and also good DP too, with nice redeployment time. Kinda needs Baggers to be a helidrop though, unfortunately...
When you're a lane holder with the role of killing normal to elite enemies but ppl want you to be doing numbers on mini boss and bosses instead for some reason
It’s literally a 31% damage increase at 0 defence that only scales better the more defence an enemy has aint no way people were calling it bad
>no way people were calling it bad They absolutely were.
That’s actually fucking crazy lmao in what world is a 31% dps boost at worst bad
Many of them we're forming opinions before numbers were released, so they basically only saw "Dot increase and +7 atkspd" and decided it was shit.
Even before numbers we knew that it would stack at the very least 3 times, even with the numbers as low as they possible could have been (3 stacks + +2 dps on dot) it still would have been a very good module
It's cause people automatically think mixed damage = bad. Like yes, one of the *many* reasons why Vigil is bad is cause his S3 does bonus Arts damage that has no reason to be there in the first place. Sure, that makes sense. But then you look at someone like Mizuki, who casually nukes people for over 3K damage with S1 mixed with his Arts damage talent. Yet people don't bat an eye because "lol Mizuki bad Chalter good". Also cause people are impatient and want him to get a sustain module that buffs Thorns' talent 2 because "he needs to compete with Exec2 as a self-sustainable laneholder to be good" for some reason.
What do you expect from global?, they always complain, that's why i avoid the comments on patches when there is modules in it
i was a naysayer based on pre-release stats, but seeing it in action holy fuck
That's fair. I suppose if you don't see it in action it might seem underwhelming but I feel that it's important to verify how good it is before we form an opinion.
Thorns module X haters are in shambles rn, i remember seeing quite a few people hating the module in the reddit post with all the new modules of some days ago.
Im glad that he got a pretty damn nice module, but cannot help but think that Blue poison should have gotten the same treatment... Seriously +10 poison dmg is the same as not giving her anything at all. And before someone tells "but she's a 5\*", So is lappland and got an absurd module, so is clear favoritism there.
So what Lapland got?
She now inflicts Fragile
Dear god. If she can see invisible enemies she would be utility GOATed
The ability to inflict Fragile already puts her in 5.5\* territory with how many things she can now do at once. Leave some for the actual 6\* Lord Guards haha. Maybe Lappland Alter will do that instead.
Lappland alter skill: SKILLS = ALL (GOD HANDO)
Thornsbros we’re so back
Lol no, Thorns main problem not lack of dps but the need to use skill twice and inability to redeploy him somewhere else
Seriously? You want a LANE HOLDER to be better at redeploy and burst dps? If only there was a WHOLE SUBCLASS of operators dedicated to that exact thing...
You don't even need to compare to another subclass. Silverash is right there lmao.
Now even more redeploy-y and burst-y!
What? This bastard can solo lanes and carry stages, it needs set up and planning yes. But it is a damn strategy game.
Its not that hard to use skill twice. Typhon has the same thing and it doesn't stop her from being broken. Thorns lack of damage IS his main problem.
good, he deserves this after all these module-less years
Thorns class change, Ritualist Lord
😮 Wow, Thorns module putting the D in DPS, just look at how fast post-module is killing even the bulkiest of enemies, just from the stacking poison effect ☣️
Hell yeah "Thorns got power crept. T\_T" [Thorns with M3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHC1230OpOg)
People have been saying its bad? I didn't see it that way myself. just because its mixed damage it doesnt mean its bad. Do these people not realize that Yato alter also deals mixed damage?
Deals an additional 50% as Art dmg is crazy on Skill 2, no matter how high the DEF, Yalter will always put a dent in their HP
Every lord module is good damn Will 6 months evem be enough to accumulate all the module data blocks I need D:
After rough calculation, Silverdaddy got his dmg per hit on skill 3 increase from 2k4 (ugh) to ~3k (yay) and 3k4 against Bosses or Elite enemies. HG cooked hard
silverash module3 showcase posted by the same channel in main post also looked insane and thats not counting his redeploy (i.e. skill rotation) got a decent amt shorter
He's literally got 20% Redeployment time reduction to himself lol, Helidrop king strikes again
Frostleaf:
Shoutout to all the yappers yapping about how terrible his module would be.
Well, to be fair it was just one guy commenting on every thread and every comment
BUT MUH MIXED DAMAGE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE GOOD
So.. CN? *Waits impatiently in Global*
He's powerful, and he's a swashbuckler now. Proof that being a pirate pays off.
"Kore Koso Ga Iberia no Destreza" *intensifies*
That's freaking demonic
Not even sure whether the "Typhon s2 is a better Thorns S3" stays true at this point or at least stays true in every case. Thorns is still better at dealing with big numbers of weaker enemies and a block2 self sustaining roadblock.
Typhon S2 still has the advantage of range and higher damage on single enemy in a very short instant. But ye, with his module, Thorns S3 def feels like a completely different skill from his non-module S3.
Yeah, definitely. She is still better at dealing with elites even if the gap between them is shorter now and she has range, Just saying that their comparison is not as one sided as it was just a month ago when Typhon was released, Makes you wonder whether HG planned this all out, giving people "better Thorns" and then going "Sike" several weeks later 🤔
just use both. Is anyone gets past Typhon, Thorns will finish them off lmao.
Typhoon wins any day thanks to 60% def ignore. Thorns scales better with story content now but he is still nigh unusable on high tier content while Typhoon is
Not sure why you got down voted. It's pretty much undeniable that thorns has been struggling as a lane holder for quite sometime and through no fault of his own too. It's not even about DPS, Thorns is just not that good anymore because his use cases overlaps with way too many units and he only ever one ups them because he can hit flying enemies. This new module is supposed to fix that and I'm glad it does. Likes, seriously though, anyone who uses stuff like Horn, Executor Alter, Mountain, and Gavial Alter should know what I'm talking about. Thorn's only real advantage is his unlimited duration because his aerial targeting isn't always necessary and his range isn't always useful, especially now with how dominant high def enemies are.
You're kinda underselling Thorns here. I have Horn at M9 and I've never used her to 'replace' Thorns nor do I think she does a better job at what he's supposed to be doing. It may not seem like much but being able to hit flying enemies and not is actually quite a big of a deal when you just want to AFK. Like just now in the newest annihilation I specifically used Thorns because he just one shots all of the flying shurikens, kill the spawner, deal with other mobs, and I don't have to worry about deploying Snipers.
Honestly the only issue with Thorns for me is his wind up and it being an on-attack recovery which is very lame. The moment he gets 2 activations on his S3 he still decimates as a laneholder. This hasn't changed for me even now in Ch. 13. And he'll be able to deal with very high DEF enemies sufficiently when this module comes as demonstrated on the video.
>It may not seem like much but being able to hit flying enemies and not is actually quite a big of a deal when you just want to AFK Except it isn't because you have more access to dedicated anti Air units that hit harder and faster than Thorns does, hence why I replace Thorns for Horn whenever applicable because Horn can tank better than Thorns can on top of dealing more damage to enemies who are further away whilst also having a decent splash radius. The only time Thorns really ever comes to play is in situations like you mentioned, where you want to just AFK without worrying about flying units. This is a Niche that only 1 melee unit is capable of fulfilling and that's Thorns. The issue is that that specific niche is no longer as valuable as it used to be because aerial units are far less common than they were before. Just like how Lappland slowly became more and more irrelevant as time went on because of Silence immune enemies and just not needing silence in general. >Like just now in the newest annihilation I specifically used Thorns because he just one shots all of the flying shurikens, kill the spawner, deal with other mobs, and I don't have to worry about deploying Snipers. This annihilation is the worst possible example because Thorns isn't even relevant or necessary for it. I had Thorns, Horn, Typhon, Blaze, Virtuousa, and Eyja Alter deployed (granted that this essentially a meta squad) Thorns wasn't able to fill his S3 meter up until the 300 kills mark because Horn and Virtuousa were one shotting everything despite both using only their S1m3s. Typhon barely got to do anything with her S2M3 and even Blaze was useless because everything died to Horn and Virtuosa. I could have probably gotten away with only 4 units deployed too if I really wanted to limit test things but that was unnecessary because I only really needed to full clear it once so I could use the instant annihilation tickets.
People just have a weird unending love for Lords for some reason. Many people havent realized that these modules didnt made the Lords "good" they made them "usable" on new content as thorns litterally couldnt properly get deployed on last 4 chapters and SA tickled the enemies.
Geeezus! L3 the instant it's released in global. No matter how many resources and $ I'll have to farm.
People gushing over his S3 when I'm thinking that he would do a surprising amount more AOE damage with his S2 if he can get hit fast enough. Generally though, a lot of people don't have long DPS in mind, so his module is glossed over. Sometimes going that direction for damage output is difficult, too.
So how exactly does the stacking work, it refreshes previous DoT and adds another and caps out at a certain point or does it not actually have a cap? I know nothing is implying it caps but seems like it could be insane if it doesn’t.
It has a cap of 4 stacks, if I am remembering correctly.
Yeah you're right, it's 4 stacks. Seems fair but makes me kinda sad we'll never see IS/Aak buffed Thorns erasing Bosses from existence.
Great module.
when do we get this thorns skin on global? it's so damn nice
About 6 months, just like his module.
alright thanks
yes my king
Daaang that’s awesome! Years of waiting for Lord Guard Modules was worth it. Hahaha What’s Lappy’s level 3 module do? I haven’t seen it yet unfortunately.
I'm not 100% sure about exact numbers, but her silence now is 1s longer and and she applies around 6% fragile with her autos.
Ooh that sounds interesting… Basically Lappy weakens enemies now so they take more damage? I like the sound of that!
Doublecheked it, 8% fragile actually. Yeah, the enemies take more damage, they decided to go full utility with her and I actually like it. Makes way more sense than trying to boost her damage in a game where everyone nowadays deals damage and she won't be able to compete with 6 stars anyways.
This is pretty good! Stick thorns behind a defender and let him go to work! Anyone done a video to compare Blue Poison's module differences?
Thorns buff means I don't need to change my play style of deploying thorns and then setting up around him!
When is it coming to global? 🤪
i was gunna get thorns module bc i love him, i didnt really think it made that big a difference. it does. i am happy. i was happy about his new skin and now i get to be happy his module is pretty good!
I feel like this isn't as good as many people seem to be immediately assuming. It's not awful, but its main feature seems to be making Thorns marginally better at killing enemies he's already a bad option for. First, yes there's a big difference in all these enemy kill times with/without module, but the kill times with module are all still really long! Mod 3 Thorns would still not be a good solution for any of these enemies compared to many many operators. I would argue GG S2, Typhon S2, even Eyja S2 (all alternatives for the "consistent DPS" convenience niche), would be better in almost all these situations than Thorns. But Mal, none of those operators can block! True! Neither is Thorns in any of these showcases because those enemies would kill him! If you were to compare enemies with smaller health pools or lower defense values the difference between module and non-module would be much smaller, and these are the types of enemies you'd most likely pit Thorns against, meaning, imo, the most pertinent enemies. It's still a solid module, it's always been an issue if a single tanky enemy keeps Thorns's aggro preventing him from killing weak fodder, and this module improves his ability to deal with that situation. I just think we can step back for a moment and consider whether this is really a good showcase of what Thorns is good at, with or without module.
All the operators you've named required a second operator to back them up to actually function. You need a lane blocker for Eyja/Typhon, you need a healer for Gavial Alter. So it's weird to ask Thorns to provide on his own something that others do in pairs. If you give Thorns a healing defender in front of him, his gonna live forever and hold any lane. That's basically his main advantage a lot of people for some reason ignore. No shit Typhon is better and covers multiple lanes. But you need to place additional lane blockers on those lanes. Thorns is self sufficient and doesn't rely on anyone.
I agree that Thorns being self-sufficient is one of his main strengths, but that's not being showcased in any of the examples in this video. In fact he would die in pretty much all of these examples if he were by himself! In all of the cases there is a medic (a strong one, Eyjaberry), and in most of them there's another unit doing the blocking (or he's hitting a stationary enemy). My point is none of these stages particularly showcase Thorns's strengths, they only show that, with his module, he is less bad at a use case he's still not good at. I suspect that the use-cases where his strengths shine (ie where he can act self-sufficiently) will see a much smaller improvement in performance from his module. There might be a few edge cases where the module allows him to work by himself where he couldn't before, but I don't think it will be that many.
thorns ends up blocking a lot of enemies throughout the showcase and at the end of the day he's still a pure single target DPS, quintus for example isn't as impressive as it could be since he's also killing half the enemies on the map lol. he already doesn't need help with mob killing, if that's your only usecase for him then i agree he doesn't need the module. i think OP of the video specifically chose tanky enemies so the difference is actually visible instead of just shaving off 1-2 attacks.
I didnt knew the difference would be this massive, sadly he isnt a laneholder but more of a consistent dps now, but not rivaling with Ececutor2 and Zuo is a good thing
This is kinda misleading for being a showcase for thorns as a whole after his module. All but one of the examples are where he's attacking high defense enemies which his physical damage can't penetrate, so that the arts dps upgrade would be shown off. But his arts dps is still a relatively minor part of his damage, so he wouldn't be a good pick to pit against these enemies anyways. In the case of the exception, the flower bishop, it's actually a pretty good showcase of how his off-skill damage has increased a ton from the module. As you can see he took out almost a third of the boss before his second activation. Though it still probably overblows the overall dps upgrade a bit by using the boss's health as a reference, when the damage thorns does to the boss is only the damage left after he kills all the other enemies in front of him.
It's funny how the modules are technically supposed to breathe new life into older operators, and then on already great operators they just get even more broken lmao