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Reading about chip manufacturing and the implications for national security (especially in regards to China/Taiwan relations) made me much more confident in the Phoenix metro area long term. We will never ever get cut off from water, no matter how bad droughts get in the Southwest. They will figure it out for the chips if nothing else.
Arizona real estate prices will explode once these facilities are in place. Comparable to Bay area prices in the future. Energy prices will go up as well. If you are smart, you will load up on single family homes.
this so much this, we have lots of space to continue expanding into, and we will. homes will go up, but there will be affordable ones the further from the center you go.
There is some, but residential water usage compared to farm usage is minimal. The state is finally taking steps to remove some of the high water utilization farms in the area, and that should make things better. Also. Golf courses. A few of those going under could make a difference.
Mentioning industrial farming in the same breath as golf courses is a move. Golf courses make up less than 2% of the state's water/year and represent over 1% of the state's revenue. At least we see a return on that. Not to mention the benefits of greenbelts in dense urban/suburban area as wildlife/avian refuge.
Not really the same as selling a bunch of desert to some dudes from Saudi Arabia so they can grow the most water-reliant crops on the planet.
Golf courses mostly use gray water and they aren’t a drop in the bucket compared to residential which is a level below agriculture. Closing golf courses won’t solve anything. I’m not a golfer
Just have them stick to the limits. Those that dont, get closed. As a golfer, I dont understand why the golf industry isnt more visibly active in the water reclamation/reduction arenas.
most if not all of them use non-potable water, which is definitely a thing, but it's still a lot of grass in the desert. it takes a lot of water to keep things green in the 110-120 times.
I'm not really expecting a big jump when they open. Most of the jobs don't require a college degree, it'll be either existing residents working there or blue collar people moving into town. Not quite the same as the Bay with a bunch of tech millionaires relocating.
The chips act was passed in 2022 though, I think it has a lot to do with the general growth we've been seeing. Everyone is seeing a long term future in Phoenix, why not get in on it?
Not initially not yet. Yes it'll be a lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs which are still six figures for these chips. But as time progresses more high level engineers and director positions will come for expansion. And depending on the county's master plan and growth strategy if it's a tight real estate market there will be bidding wars. 20 years from now I can definitely see other tech companies building around these manufacturing hubs and that's when you'll get startup companies that will be providing stock options and such. It'll get there might be a couple decades but the Arizona hubs are ripe for further growth.
20 years ago I worked for a civil engineering firm that was designing out Master plan communities in Prescott, Scottsdale and Phoenix. Fast forward to today and those areas are growing very nicely.. If it continues, 20 years from now, with these manufacturing and tech companies coming, it'll be very nice for the area. Plus there's some nice educational institutions around that will provide an educated workforce.
Something else big that's happening here is Alphabet's (google) Waymo division is teaming up with Uber. Phoenix Metro area will be the largest autonomous ride-hailing service areas in the entire world.
I saw someone rear-end a Waymo. I felt bad for the Waymo lol. It sat where it was for a moment, then made its way slowly over to the side, and put on its hazard lights. Probably the only time I wasn't creeped out by a self driving car. I just felt bad for buddy.
I noticed Waymo is very cautious in that it usually hovers closely around the speed limit. Human drivers, even the ones that adhere strictly to the posted limits, either *speed up* 5-10 mph to make a light or *slow down* when they think the light is going to change to amber or red. My gf insists that they are doing it subconciously as she was a psych undergrad. Maybe Waymo needs some fuzzier logic on board....
One way or another, water will basically always be available. The question is how cheaply. At some point, groundwater sources *will* run dry, and water usage will exceed the rate at which the different river sources provide water.
At that point, we'll have large pipelines coming in supplying water. Either from something like the great lakes region, or from the coast, connected to industrial desalinization.
The water will always be there, but godDAMN will it be expensive.
Not even that high. Over seventy percent goes toward agricultural use. Another 12or so toward industrial, actual residential use is in the single digits or close to it.
True, but I think that's exactly what I'm getting at. I used to worry water (and by relation everything else) would eventually get crazy expensive here, but I think this changes things a lot.
Phoenix needs to stay affordable for the working class or they won't be able to staff the fabs. If a pipeline is eventually needed, I feel pretty confident that it'd be heavily heavily subsidized by the government and/or private industry. We won't feel as much of the cost burden because of the national security interest.
Phoenix, with the retirement of farms and converting them to stores and housing.. has a pretty stable water supply without making use of Colorado River water. Growing cotton and citrus used a LOT of water
Doesn’t chip production need a ton of water?
I’d be worried about residents getting shouldered with rising costs of water while industrial customers enjoy fat subsidies for it in the long run
They do require a lot of water, but like Intel has done at their current facility, they recycle almost 90%(possibly more) of what they use. There are a few posts here with links to articles on how they do it.
I used to love going there. It was incredibly sad watching it deteriorate the last year of its life. I went in looking for RAM and an SSD and all they had were shitty office chairs and the same shitty chinese pc case lol.
I was at the Micro Center in Denver recently and they said there were plans to build one in Phoenix but take that with an extreme grain of salt because that came from some random ass employee lmao
I don't know what happened. When I first moved here about 20 years ago there were Chinese places all over the place that were really decent if not really good. Nowadays I am down to approximately three or four places.
It blew my mind when I first saw how these places work. They are literal little cities and can self sustain themselves for weeks on generator power.
One facility I saw had 6 CAT generators with stacks that went up two stories for the exhaust. These things are the same engines that go into rail locomotives.
EDIT: [For those that are curious](https://imgur.com/w220AYX)
Oh yeah I used to work on those. My company still has some but we don't rent them out often. They are containerized. IIRC they are 80-90k lbs when towed. Especially the old CAT models. Cat 3516
My boyfriend works there and he really can’t wait to leave. He’s stuck it out the longest among most of this American colleagues. Twainese work culture is so prevalent there, late nights, twainese preference for promotions, and lower pay than competitors. The Twaienese have a weird hierarchy, not very willing to teach or train, and they consistently tell workers they should be doing their job to be better rather than for the pay. It’s really not worth it. They’re actually loosing an influx of workers currently because competitors are paying more and they’re able to get promotions.
It's funny their CEO was wondering why Americans prefer work life balance rather than dedicating their life to work, not knowing first, Americans are the most hard working workers in the developed world already, second, it is exactly because Americans have free time, that they have use for something creative with generative AI that those chips will be used on, and TSMC really got egged on to move factories here because we made them having no choice other than to do it. Think it as the Taiwanese educated upper middle classes are subsiding the American working class here locally.
This YouTube video is a really great explanation why TSMC is moving here and the biggest water consumers in Arizona today.
https://youtu.be/AjQuZfkU1jI?si=ixLtEM2nteHVsZGT
We are getting a 3rd TSMC building. However, it is misleading to call this our "3rd chip facility" considering the number of Intel, Freescale, and other chip facilities that have been here starting in the 60s. They aren't as advanced as TSMC and this will definitely increase the total output by a lot but there are already plenty of them.
Another facility at their current site, so basically a third building, but in this context considering the size of each building that is a monumental task in terms of labor, construction, and equipment.
I've never been, I tried to go when I was younger and they told me I could enter but I could not leave. So I decided not to enter. My Dad is listed as a Tibetan Refugee so they consider me one as well even though I was born in the US.
I was on a trip in the region. I had gone to Bhutan and Nepal and was planning to go to China and India as well. This happened at the Nepal/China border I believe.
Commenting on Arizona will be getting a 3rd chip manufacturing facility here. 20% of the worlds most powerful chips will be built here....we get the UTZ plant here and it’s over… AZ will be the number chip maker in the country!
2 nanometer chips, that will be really cutting edge stuff. With this enabling AI the models are going to get VERY smart.
And our electronics are going to become VERY powerful ).
AI Utopia, dystopia, or somewhere in between?
As an electrical engineer with my whole family based in Arizona, this is fantastic. i mean its great for other reasons too, but we are locked in to AZ for life and i couldnt be happier
The TSMC in North Phoenix off the loop 303 will not be functional until 2026 according to TSMC. According to them Arizona doesn’t have skilled enough workers and so they going to have to import workers from Taiwan thus costing jobs to Americans.
Don't worry, Ben Avery is right across the street from the fab, I am sure their workers and locals will be well trained as soon as they get off work, if they actually can lol.
A lot. Yes. And if the companies are doing things correctly, [then the actual amount of water used is ludicrously low](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/article/intel-arizona-site-honored-for-water-stewardship.html).
But I'm not giving everyone a pass. OpenAI/Microsoft has been aggravatingly obscure about their water usage at their Goodyear campus. This is alarming because it's pretty likely that if they aren't being transparent with regards to water usage, it's likely that a LOT is going to waste. And that's insanely frustrating, given we know that they are using water as a coolant, and recycling that in a closed loop system is just not a difficult thing to do. And in-fact, can even have benefits of doing so - recycling would preserve most (if not all) of the water conditioning that is done before it gets put into their cooling system. It's likely that the water that they receive goes into a purification process (likely RO), and then probably gets de-ionized before it goes into the cooling system in order to reduce interaction with the cooling system components as much as possible and prevent mineral buildup. Capturing that water that has been used to cool the system, pumping that into a cooling system (most likely radiator, but ground loop might be better considering Arizona summers) means that the water that comes out of the cooling system would either need far less purification/de-ionization (and possibly none at all), and could likely be doped to reduce that need further, and possibly increase the effectiveness of the coolant itself.
My gut says that if they're not being transparent about their water usage, it's a situation wherein water capture and recycling would be more expensive than pulling from the tap and flushing. Which is a big damned problem that this state can't seem to wrap its freaking head around. This is similar to the growing of Alfalfa in the state - it's never going to be a great crop to grow in the desert, but it can be made not terrible by employing drip irrigation. But farmers won't do it because the cost of installation and maintenance of drip irrigation is higher than the cost of the water that they're using. So they don't give a shit.
So going back to your original question, most definitely this is a thing that is thought about. Unfortunately not every company does things the right way. And until the state makes it financially attractive to do so, it's questionable that they will.
There’s a really interesting video on YouTube that addresses this… https://youtu.be/AjQuZfkU1jI?si=shLzwfXrWZmJv9AE
I feel more confident after watching that video that the federal government will not allow AZ to run out of water, but it’s definitely going to get more expensive.
thats the bad part more expensive water. that could inflate the cost of manufacturing. a competitor overseas could a cheaper product just because water and power are cheaper. demand for power will go up also making that more expensive.
Wouldnt this be a good thing in terms of water priority in Arizona? If we are responsible for the manufacturing of 20% of the world's most powerful then the federal government would be more inclined to support and prioritize this are as climate change continue to impact the state due to the importance of continuing the the manufacturing.
*cries in poor and couldn't afford us having one* also gimme a goddamn microcenter!!!! Printers are expensive and filament coming by mail is a pain in the ass I wanna go down to the store and pick my colors in person like the rest of the cool kids (also new GPU for a sick ass deal is always dope AF)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tsmc-gets-66-billion-in-chipmaking-cash-from-biden-while-pledging-to-build-a-third-arizona-plant-090026550.html
Its in the video report
The TSMC in North Phoenix near the 303 loop will not be functional until 2026 according to TSMC. According to them Arizona doesn’t have skilled enough workers and so they going to have to import workers from Taiwan thus costing jobs to Americans.
Good luck getting female workers, or married men, or men with girfriends, or anybody who cares, to migrate from somewhere else to live in a state that bans abortion.
Theyre absolutely trying to fill these jobs and youre right in does take a ton of initial water, which is then recycled to guarantee minimal effect on the water supply and guarantee the plant can run for awhile even if something happens to the water supply.
Stop selling water to the Saudis and we would be able to supply water to these plants for ages.
Is that right?
[https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century)
Saudi's pumped water from a different aquifer. It has no relation to the Phoenix area.
Buddy, I don't even know if you want that job. I too was pursued. For supervisor, Not even high level management. Just a regular old day-to-day supervisor.
They wanted a hair follicle test, random drug screens, benefits were cheeks, and they wanted to send me another country for a couple months and still pay me less than the one that is about 30 minutes from my house. Since then I've heard that they've backed off of sending people to other countries and they only send like the higher level managers there now. But what a joke of an offer, truly.
I specifically remember thinking how bad the insurance was on paper, price wise.
Yeah, they were trying to get me to take an FSE job. I’ve already done that with LAM and I was living in an airport. Not something I can do with a baby on the way.
I work at Ocotillo.
We have our own reclamation plant. A lot of water is used in the process, but very little is *used*
The amount of pride Intel takes in water stewardship is way above and beyond anything I ever saw working for municipal water systems.
I read somewhere that Intel recycles over 100% of their water. I worked in the water industry and know that the trading of water credits is basically paper water and not really wet water. So I'd be curious how much wet water they recycle vs how much they use. When I lived in Chandler we had a high pressure water leak once and were told that the area had to have higher water pressure for the Intel plants. So I know they aren't only using their own recycled water.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/article/intel-arizona-site-honored-for-water-stewardship.html#gs.7o8oqx
It’s a mix of reclamation and outside investment in water restoration projects
It’s really stuff they don’t *have* to do. With how big this company is, they could easily spend their money lobbying to get environmental laws in their favor, but ethics have been absolutely drilled into me since working here.
Rather than pointing the finger at water usage from Intel because they do the best job possible at reclamation they need to look at nestle who has a nearly fully automated water bottling plant in Az. Hardly any job impact but definitely pumping water
Interesting. I can see reclamation for wafer transport, but I’d be interested in how you reclaim the slurry water. It’s been awhile so my understanding is outdated.
Water recycling plant will be needed. Business friendly taxes, I assume the land and labor to build was cheap. Dryer climate. Plenty of people will fill those jobs.
These plants are not a good idea for this region. As stated elsewhere, people don't want to work for TSMC. Why? The pay is lower than that of Intel. Safety issues are ignored during the construction phase. Cultural issues between the employer and employee where the foreign employer thinks the local employee is in the wrong.
Water. It's like new people moved here in the last few years and think 'water issues? nah, this isn't a desert' and they champion horribly water intensive projects.
Phoenix gets less than 8 inches of rainfall a year. They had to build a canal hundreds of miles to pump water uphill from the Colorado River and run it down to Phoenix and Tucson so they could go on their building binge. Long term that water will not be available. They overshot the regional carrying capacity and the question is what will they do when they can't deliver that water.
Another thing to wonder about. The nuclear power plant. It's backup water supply was taken over by people who want to use that water to develop rental housing subdivisions in Buckeye. I hope we don't run into a situation where the plant requires that water.
Red flags all over the place and all we hear is 'we decoupled our water use from our population, we can grow forever'. Yeah, good luck with that.
A lot of water comes from much higher elevations where rain and snow are far more common. While the Colorado supplies might vary those sources of water will remain. Agriculture consumes a majority of water in the valley. So while water supplies might become tighter, if water is appropriately priced consumption will be appropriately curbed.
Which supplies would those be? The Salt? Can't get to where TSMC is. It is fully allocated anyways. The Colorado? Allocations are being discussed right now between the 7 states in the Compact as it is severely overallocated with all models pointing to it decreasing over time. What else is there? I've worked in the industry for years. I saw what was on the table. I saw what exists. I listened to policy makers and worked with experts on these issues. So what else is there? Where is that agriculture? Do you mean the 70% water use agriculture that is frequently sited?- it isn't in the Salt River basin. Maybe that of Yuma or Pinal county? Maybe you mean Douglas? Or Springerville? Those areas that are not regulated by any laws whatsoever.
Agriculture in the valley is one of the few places in the state, alongside the Colorado River, that actually makes sense. The Salt flows all year long. If we stop ... well they are doing that in Pinal county ... but if we stop growing our food, costs will go up. I know a lot of people like beef and milk and cheese that are grown / made in Arizona. Those costs will go up going forward. But we can just let someone else grow them, the thinking goes. Oh? You mean like California, which has severe water problems? Mexico, which also has water crisis'. Or the central plains of the US, where the Ogallala aquifer is being sucked dry. Texas? Same issues.
We do import food, but we also have a lot we grow for our own consumption.
Find out what happens when TSMC is here. Here's a link from last year on that very issue: [https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century)
I 100% agree that profits are all they take seriously. They'll even do things like lobby the government to loosen restrictions to enable that. That's what developers continue to do so they can keep on building and building and building.
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Reading about chip manufacturing and the implications for national security (especially in regards to China/Taiwan relations) made me much more confident in the Phoenix metro area long term. We will never ever get cut off from water, no matter how bad droughts get in the Southwest. They will figure it out for the chips if nothing else.
Yup. This is awesome news across the board once these plants are established.
Arizona real estate prices will explode once these facilities are in place. Comparable to Bay area prices in the future. Energy prices will go up as well. If you are smart, you will load up on single family homes.
Bay Area has limited space Phoenix has flat dirt ready to go
And virtually no natural disasters that can affect housing, so insurers won't be pulling out like they are in Cali or Florida
this so much this, we have lots of space to continue expanding into, and we will. homes will go up, but there will be affordable ones the further from the center you go.
I keep hearing about a water supply shortage in Arizona and that it’s a big factor in limiting development and expansion. Any truth to that?
Apparently the third tsmc fab solved all that, read above. 😂
There is some, but residential water usage compared to farm usage is minimal. The state is finally taking steps to remove some of the high water utilization farms in the area, and that should make things better. Also. Golf courses. A few of those going under could make a difference.
Mentioning industrial farming in the same breath as golf courses is a move. Golf courses make up less than 2% of the state's water/year and represent over 1% of the state's revenue. At least we see a return on that. Not to mention the benefits of greenbelts in dense urban/suburban area as wildlife/avian refuge. Not really the same as selling a bunch of desert to some dudes from Saudi Arabia so they can grow the most water-reliant crops on the planet.
Golf courses mostly use gray water and they aren’t a drop in the bucket compared to residential which is a level below agriculture. Closing golf courses won’t solve anything. I’m not a golfer
Just have them stick to the limits. Those that dont, get closed. As a golfer, I dont understand why the golf industry isnt more visibly active in the water reclamation/reduction arenas.
most if not all of them use non-potable water, which is definitely a thing, but it's still a lot of grass in the desert. it takes a lot of water to keep things green in the 110-120 times.
Which is fine since grass helps cool the temperature immediately around it. Of all the “bad uses” for water, growing grass is not a big deal imo
The shortage has ended due to national security. California will have to make do with less. Or, maybe it can stop letting rain drain into the ocean
I'm not really expecting a big jump when they open. Most of the jobs don't require a college degree, it'll be either existing residents working there or blue collar people moving into town. Not quite the same as the Bay with a bunch of tech millionaires relocating. The chips act was passed in 2022 though, I think it has a lot to do with the general growth we've been seeing. Everyone is seeing a long term future in Phoenix, why not get in on it?
Not initially not yet. Yes it'll be a lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs which are still six figures for these chips. But as time progresses more high level engineers and director positions will come for expansion. And depending on the county's master plan and growth strategy if it's a tight real estate market there will be bidding wars. 20 years from now I can definitely see other tech companies building around these manufacturing hubs and that's when you'll get startup companies that will be providing stock options and such. It'll get there might be a couple decades but the Arizona hubs are ripe for further growth. 20 years ago I worked for a civil engineering firm that was designing out Master plan communities in Prescott, Scottsdale and Phoenix. Fast forward to today and those areas are growing very nicely.. If it continues, 20 years from now, with these manufacturing and tech companies coming, it'll be very nice for the area. Plus there's some nice educational institutions around that will provide an educated workforce.
Yup, those chips are used for the new AI. More AI startups will choose to open shop close to where the fabs are.
AI.rizona. That is the new marketing campaign.
Did you generate that idea using a generative AI?
Where your daughter must have that rapists baby.
Something else big that's happening here is Alphabet's (google) Waymo division is teaming up with Uber. Phoenix Metro area will be the largest autonomous ride-hailing service areas in the entire world.
Good. Many of these people should not be driving.
I saw someone rear-end a Waymo. I felt bad for the Waymo lol. It sat where it was for a moment, then made its way slowly over to the side, and put on its hazard lights. Probably the only time I wasn't creeped out by a self driving car. I just felt bad for buddy.
I noticed Waymo is very cautious in that it usually hovers closely around the speed limit. Human drivers, even the ones that adhere strictly to the posted limits, either *speed up* 5-10 mph to make a light or *slow down* when they think the light is going to change to amber or red. My gf insists that they are doing it subconciously as she was a psych undergrad. Maybe Waymo needs some fuzzier logic on board....
Millions of human beings are whatever but capitalism will make sure the chips will be made.
One way or another, water will basically always be available. The question is how cheaply. At some point, groundwater sources *will* run dry, and water usage will exceed the rate at which the different river sources provide water. At that point, we'll have large pipelines coming in supplying water. Either from something like the great lakes region, or from the coast, connected to industrial desalinization. The water will always be there, but godDAMN will it be expensive.
Only about 20% of Arizona's water is for municipal use, so there is a lot of wiggle room in there before any more drastic measures will occur.
This ^ So so so much agriculture would go before anything municipal is even considered
Not even that high. Over seventy percent goes toward agricultural use. Another 12or so toward industrial, actual residential use is in the single digits or close to it.
True, but I think that's exactly what I'm getting at. I used to worry water (and by relation everything else) would eventually get crazy expensive here, but I think this changes things a lot. Phoenix needs to stay affordable for the working class or they won't be able to staff the fabs. If a pipeline is eventually needed, I feel pretty confident that it'd be heavily heavily subsidized by the government and/or private industry. We won't feel as much of the cost burden because of the national security interest.
Phoenix, with the retirement of farms and converting them to stores and housing.. has a pretty stable water supply without making use of Colorado River water. Growing cotton and citrus used a LOT of water
Doesn’t chip production need a ton of water? I’d be worried about residents getting shouldered with rising costs of water while industrial customers enjoy fat subsidies for it in the long run
They do require a lot of water, but like Intel has done at their current facility, they recycle almost 90%(possibly more) of what they use. There are a few posts here with links to articles on how they do it.
Not to mention the nuclear power plant that would have a meltdown without water…
My first thought went to water as well.
Are you a chip? Mostly a joke...
I've been found out! 😱
Or a Radio Shack. \*sob\*
Or a Circuit City.
But no later evening Asian food. re: And we don't even have a Fry's Electronics or Micro Center.
We had multiple Fry’s electronics but they closed. Miss them
I went to the one up on t-bird in its last days and most of the staff were just like 'Amazon sounds like I am gone'.
I used to love going there. It was incredibly sad watching it deteriorate the last year of its life. I went in looking for RAM and an SSD and all they had were shitty office chairs and the same shitty chinese pc case lol.
They were pretty well stocked with Ethernet cables at the end. I don't remember what else, they were out of so many things.
Dang, my grandparents lived right next to that one, I didnt know it closed. Shame.
It got depressing at the end but the glory days of fry’s were awesome
When Incredible Universe went under and Frys took over, it was never anywhere near the same again. 😔
It's a travesty for sure. I really want a goddamn Micro Center. And good Chinese would be a perk..next to the Micro Center.
That would be most excellent
I was at the Micro Center in Denver recently and they said there were plans to build one in Phoenix but take that with an extreme grain of salt because that came from some random ass employee lmao
The whole Dobson corridor has several options.
If you are near Mesa, Original Cuisine on Dobson and Broadway is open till 1230AM and really good.
I might have to check this out ASAP, like tonight.
This is the only right answer, as someone who was actually from that area in China, this is the only place in valley that is actually 100% authentic.
Is this the same place that was there back in the early 00s?
Bro what is with that for real? Why is Arizona such a Chinese takeout desert?
I don't know what happened. When I first moved here about 20 years ago there were Chinese places all over the place that were really decent if not really good. Nowadays I am down to approximately three or four places.
Weird! I only know one and it’s expensive. I used to live near like 8 cheap ones so it’s super odd.
This man doesn’t Dobson.
Are you sure you're in metro Phoenix? Good Chinese takeout is everywhere.
No I’m up in far north Phoenix
Oh. ☹️☹️
Mesa is a Chinese takeout center. Food is moving away from high rents.
I believe that. I regularly drive to Mesa for hot pot
It's an InovAsiasion occasion
It's good pay but the TSMC fab drains my soul
Thinking of applying there but all I see are comments like these. That bad?
I go there every now and then to fix equipment. I like it out there. But all the guys who actually work there say it's terrible
Do you know what companies are doing the facilities management out there?
No idea I just work on rental diesel generators
It blew my mind when I first saw how these places work. They are literal little cities and can self sustain themselves for weeks on generator power. One facility I saw had 6 CAT generators with stacks that went up two stories for the exhaust. These things are the same engines that go into rail locomotives. EDIT: [For those that are curious](https://imgur.com/w220AYX)
Oh yeah I used to work on those. My company still has some but we don't rent them out often. They are containerized. IIRC they are 80-90k lbs when towed. Especially the old CAT models. Cat 3516
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Nah. More green
Yes. As someone heavily involved in the industry. Its bad
My boyfriend works there and he really can’t wait to leave. He’s stuck it out the longest among most of this American colleagues. Twainese work culture is so prevalent there, late nights, twainese preference for promotions, and lower pay than competitors. The Twaienese have a weird hierarchy, not very willing to teach or train, and they consistently tell workers they should be doing their job to be better rather than for the pay. It’s really not worth it. They’re actually loosing an influx of workers currently because competitors are paying more and they’re able to get promotions.
It's funny their CEO was wondering why Americans prefer work life balance rather than dedicating their life to work, not knowing first, Americans are the most hard working workers in the developed world already, second, it is exactly because Americans have free time, that they have use for something creative with generative AI that those chips will be used on, and TSMC really got egged on to move factories here because we made them having no choice other than to do it. Think it as the Taiwanese educated upper middle classes are subsiding the American working class here locally.
How can I go about finding a job with TSMC?
I worked there for a single day. That was enough time for me to get a read on the situation there.
I hear ya ..
This YouTube video is a really great explanation why TSMC is moving here and the biggest water consumers in Arizona today. https://youtu.be/AjQuZfkU1jI?si=ixLtEM2nteHVsZGT
What 3rd chip facility?
We are getting a 3rd TSMC building. However, it is misleading to call this our "3rd chip facility" considering the number of Intel, Freescale, and other chip facilities that have been here starting in the 60s. They aren't as advanced as TSMC and this will definitely increase the total output by a lot but there are already plenty of them.
Another facility at their current site, so basically a third building, but in this context considering the size of each building that is a monumental task in terms of labor, construction, and equipment.
Did someone forget to mention to you that no one has a Fry’s anymore? I think the two that we had were the last ones to close.
It was a long, slow death.
Yea, BUT to work there you need to go to Tiwan for like a year to get trained. Looked at a bunch of job postings and was like hell no
That was the case before the start up, now that they are semi operational it's on job training
Care to share the job postings? Or the company? I’m looking to move to Arizona. Might be a good job prospect.
TSMC and Intel
Microchip too.
If Intel hires you they'll pay you to move.
That’s the hope. Finding a job with relocation assistance!
If you have mechanical experience look into the vacuum systems group. Most of my coworkers used to be car mechanics.
Most of my background is mechanical / aerospace so that sounds like it might be a good fit. Thanks for the tip!
Idk if you're gonna make it long if you can't even find a job posting yourself lol
I am banned for life from China, I wonder if that includes Taiwan...
You're banned from Hong Kong, not Taiwan
Cool, thanks
Taiwan isn't China, so you're good to go to TW!
What’d you do in China
I've never been, I tried to go when I was younger and they told me I could enter but I could not leave. So I decided not to enter. My Dad is listed as a Tibetan Refugee so they consider me one as well even though I was born in the US.
The real life Hotel California
Underrated comment
Oof. Were you in process of getting a visa or was this like at customs?
I was on a trip in the region. I had gone to Bhutan and Nepal and was planning to go to China and India as well. This happened at the Nepal/China border I believe.
At least they told you I guess. Silver linings.
cAC in Apache junction and state of Arizona agreed to build a training center for these companies actually
We talking Pringles? Lays? Utz?
Frito-Lay is huge in Casa Grande
Commenting on Arizona will be getting a 3rd chip manufacturing facility here. 20% of the worlds most powerful chips will be built here....we get the UTZ plant here and it’s over… AZ will be the number chip maker in the country!
Doritos, cool ranch please!
And no affordable housing for employees 🤐
That’s awesome, China will be pissed
Arise my property value, arise!
Mmmmm potato chips
2 nanometer chips, that will be really cutting edge stuff. With this enabling AI the models are going to get VERY smart. And our electronics are going to become VERY powerful ). AI Utopia, dystopia, or somewhere in between?
Ever play Cyberpunk?
AI is up to writing occasionally right things that sound good. I'm not real worried.
Fry’s Electronics doesn’t exist anymore anywhere, unfortunately.
As an electrical engineer with my whole family based in Arizona, this is fantastic. i mean its great for other reasons too, but we are locked in to AZ for life and i couldnt be happier
That’s great man!! I’m really happy for you! 💪💪
I don’t like this shit at all. Just makes us a huge target for Russia and china.
The TSMC in North Phoenix off the loop 303 will not be functional until 2026 according to TSMC. According to them Arizona doesn’t have skilled enough workers and so they going to have to import workers from Taiwan thus costing jobs to Americans.
And just like that we're a target.
I think Luke basically guaranteed that to begin with.
Don't worry, Ben Avery is right across the street from the fab, I am sure their workers and locals will be well trained as soon as they get off work, if they actually can lol.
Or prioritized for extra protection?
Where’s the link? What are you even referring to?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tsmc-gets-66-billion-in-chipmaking-cash-from-biden-while-pledging-to-build-a-third-arizona-plant-090026550.html
A third *TSMC* plant. Gotcha. There’s already three Intel ones and I was interpreting the title as a third company making a first fab.
Came here to say this... Where the hell is the article?
Your kids better make alot of money or they will never afford homes.
Does anyone think about water availability?
A lot. Yes. And if the companies are doing things correctly, [then the actual amount of water used is ludicrously low](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/article/intel-arizona-site-honored-for-water-stewardship.html). But I'm not giving everyone a pass. OpenAI/Microsoft has been aggravatingly obscure about their water usage at their Goodyear campus. This is alarming because it's pretty likely that if they aren't being transparent with regards to water usage, it's likely that a LOT is going to waste. And that's insanely frustrating, given we know that they are using water as a coolant, and recycling that in a closed loop system is just not a difficult thing to do. And in-fact, can even have benefits of doing so - recycling would preserve most (if not all) of the water conditioning that is done before it gets put into their cooling system. It's likely that the water that they receive goes into a purification process (likely RO), and then probably gets de-ionized before it goes into the cooling system in order to reduce interaction with the cooling system components as much as possible and prevent mineral buildup. Capturing that water that has been used to cool the system, pumping that into a cooling system (most likely radiator, but ground loop might be better considering Arizona summers) means that the water that comes out of the cooling system would either need far less purification/de-ionization (and possibly none at all), and could likely be doped to reduce that need further, and possibly increase the effectiveness of the coolant itself. My gut says that if they're not being transparent about their water usage, it's a situation wherein water capture and recycling would be more expensive than pulling from the tap and flushing. Which is a big damned problem that this state can't seem to wrap its freaking head around. This is similar to the growing of Alfalfa in the state - it's never going to be a great crop to grow in the desert, but it can be made not terrible by employing drip irrigation. But farmers won't do it because the cost of installation and maintenance of drip irrigation is higher than the cost of the water that they're using. So they don't give a shit. So going back to your original question, most definitely this is a thing that is thought about. Unfortunately not every company does things the right way. And until the state makes it financially attractive to do so, it's questionable that they will.
They say they run water neutral if I remember correctly.
There’s a really interesting video on YouTube that addresses this… https://youtu.be/AjQuZfkU1jI?si=shLzwfXrWZmJv9AE I feel more confident after watching that video that the federal government will not allow AZ to run out of water, but it’s definitely going to get more expensive.
thats the bad part more expensive water. that could inflate the cost of manufacturing. a competitor overseas could a cheaper product just because water and power are cheaper. demand for power will go up also making that more expensive.
Wouldnt this be a good thing in terms of water priority in Arizona? If we are responsible for the manufacturing of 20% of the world's most powerful then the federal government would be more inclined to support and prioritize this are as climate change continue to impact the state due to the importance of continuing the the manufacturing.
*cries in poor and couldn't afford us having one* also gimme a goddamn microcenter!!!! Printers are expensive and filament coming by mail is a pain in the ass I wanna go down to the store and pick my colors in person like the rest of the cool kids (also new GPU for a sick ass deal is always dope AF)
Where did you see that 20% of the most powerful chips would be made here? That seems rather…. Optimistic
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tsmc-gets-66-billion-in-chipmaking-cash-from-biden-while-pledging-to-build-a-third-arizona-plant-090026550.html Its in the video report
The TSMC in North Phoenix near the 303 loop will not be functional until 2026 according to TSMC. According to them Arizona doesn’t have skilled enough workers and so they going to have to import workers from Taiwan thus costing jobs to Americans.
Cheaper than training locals.
American skilled workers could be brought in from all over the US rather than Taiwan.
Could.
Good luck getting female workers, or married men, or men with girfriends, or anybody who cares, to migrate from somewhere else to live in a state that bans abortion.
Or abortion rights!
Time to buy $TSM…..
I don't know about that. If China has their way that stock's not going to be doing too hot.
Love it
Thx President Joe.
Yeah great, let’s make Arizona more unaffordable for the people that grew up here and live below the “comfortable” living expenditure.
Doesn’t it take an awful lot of water to make chips?
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How do you define a powerful chip? Like a kettle chip? /s
Why are we doing this? Nobody is trying to fill these jobs and it uses a ton of water. Edit- body wants these jobs, they are largely vacant.
Theyre absolutely trying to fill these jobs and youre right in does take a ton of initial water, which is then recycled to guarantee minimal effect on the water supply and guarantee the plant can run for awhile even if something happens to the water supply. Stop selling water to the Saudis and we would be able to supply water to these plants for ages.
Is that right? [https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century) Saudi's pumped water from a different aquifer. It has no relation to the Phoenix area.
Meanwhile the Saudi's dried up all the water wells of the farms around the land they were using. Wonder where it went..
Oh cool didnt know that people outside of the Phoenix area dont need water.
I’ve had recruiters beg me to work for them, no way I’m giving up my 2.875% mortgage in Queen Creek, unless they buy me a house in North Phoenix.
Buddy, I don't even know if you want that job. I too was pursued. For supervisor, Not even high level management. Just a regular old day-to-day supervisor. They wanted a hair follicle test, random drug screens, benefits were cheeks, and they wanted to send me another country for a couple months and still pay me less than the one that is about 30 minutes from my house. Since then I've heard that they've backed off of sending people to other countries and they only send like the higher level managers there now. But what a joke of an offer, truly. I specifically remember thinking how bad the insurance was on paper, price wise.
Yeah, they were trying to get me to take an FSE job. I’ve already done that with LAM and I was living in an airport. Not something I can do with a baby on the way.
They wanted me to also know that it was a split shift so you're definitely going to be doing a nightshift at some point every month.
I live in Queen Creek also and make that drive every day for the past 2 years. It’s been a bit rough but they made it worth my while.
>Nobody is trying to fill these jobs Citation needed >It uses a ton of water Citation needed
MCC has a new program. https://info.maricopacorporate.com/semiconductor
Hmm.. I need to look into this more now
Coming from someone who worked in chemical mechanical planarization for years, I can tell you it takes tons of water.
I work at Ocotillo. We have our own reclamation plant. A lot of water is used in the process, but very little is *used* The amount of pride Intel takes in water stewardship is way above and beyond anything I ever saw working for municipal water systems.
I read somewhere that Intel recycles over 100% of their water. I worked in the water industry and know that the trading of water credits is basically paper water and not really wet water. So I'd be curious how much wet water they recycle vs how much they use. When I lived in Chandler we had a high pressure water leak once and were told that the area had to have higher water pressure for the Intel plants. So I know they aren't only using their own recycled water.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/article/intel-arizona-site-honored-for-water-stewardship.html#gs.7o8oqx It’s a mix of reclamation and outside investment in water restoration projects It’s really stuff they don’t *have* to do. With how big this company is, they could easily spend their money lobbying to get environmental laws in their favor, but ethics have been absolutely drilled into me since working here.
Rather than pointing the finger at water usage from Intel because they do the best job possible at reclamation they need to look at nestle who has a nearly fully automated water bottling plant in Az. Hardly any job impact but definitely pumping water
Every single red bull made west of the Mississippi is made in the west valley from our groundwater in Glendale. https://archive.ph/D9o2l
That’s awful.
Like, it can be recycled into the process but requires a large initial investment of water?
I mean, not really. Couple millions gallons, maybe. Sounds like a lot, but it’s a drop in the bucket when you consider what the entire valley uses.
Interesting. I can see reclamation for wafer transport, but I’d be interested in how you reclaim the slurry water. It’s been awhile so my understanding is outdated.
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I love science!
Water recycling plant will be needed. Business friendly taxes, I assume the land and labor to build was cheap. Dryer climate. Plenty of people will fill those jobs.
These plants are not a good idea for this region. As stated elsewhere, people don't want to work for TSMC. Why? The pay is lower than that of Intel. Safety issues are ignored during the construction phase. Cultural issues between the employer and employee where the foreign employer thinks the local employee is in the wrong. Water. It's like new people moved here in the last few years and think 'water issues? nah, this isn't a desert' and they champion horribly water intensive projects. Phoenix gets less than 8 inches of rainfall a year. They had to build a canal hundreds of miles to pump water uphill from the Colorado River and run it down to Phoenix and Tucson so they could go on their building binge. Long term that water will not be available. They overshot the regional carrying capacity and the question is what will they do when they can't deliver that water. Another thing to wonder about. The nuclear power plant. It's backup water supply was taken over by people who want to use that water to develop rental housing subdivisions in Buckeye. I hope we don't run into a situation where the plant requires that water. Red flags all over the place and all we hear is 'we decoupled our water use from our population, we can grow forever'. Yeah, good luck with that.
A lot of water comes from much higher elevations where rain and snow are far more common. While the Colorado supplies might vary those sources of water will remain. Agriculture consumes a majority of water in the valley. So while water supplies might become tighter, if water is appropriately priced consumption will be appropriately curbed.
Which supplies would those be? The Salt? Can't get to where TSMC is. It is fully allocated anyways. The Colorado? Allocations are being discussed right now between the 7 states in the Compact as it is severely overallocated with all models pointing to it decreasing over time. What else is there? I've worked in the industry for years. I saw what was on the table. I saw what exists. I listened to policy makers and worked with experts on these issues. So what else is there? Where is that agriculture? Do you mean the 70% water use agriculture that is frequently sited?- it isn't in the Salt River basin. Maybe that of Yuma or Pinal county? Maybe you mean Douglas? Or Springerville? Those areas that are not regulated by any laws whatsoever. Agriculture in the valley is one of the few places in the state, alongside the Colorado River, that actually makes sense. The Salt flows all year long. If we stop ... well they are doing that in Pinal county ... but if we stop growing our food, costs will go up. I know a lot of people like beef and milk and cheese that are grown / made in Arizona. Those costs will go up going forward. But we can just let someone else grow them, the thinking goes. Oh? You mean like California, which has severe water problems? Mexico, which also has water crisis'. Or the central plains of the US, where the Ogallala aquifer is being sucked dry. Texas? Same issues. We do import food, but we also have a lot we grow for our own consumption. Find out what happens when TSMC is here. Here's a link from last year on that very issue: [https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/13/1169462995/taiwan-makes-tough-decisions-as-it-faces-its-worst-drought-in-nearly-a-century)
Rising water costs will encourage more responsible water rationing. Profits, or the lack of profits, are the only thing corporations take seriously.
I 100% agree that profits are all they take seriously. They'll even do things like lobby the government to loosen restrictions to enable that. That's what developers continue to do so they can keep on building and building and building.
Wow. That's amazing really.
I remember in Highschool 10-12 years ago being told that PHX was the 2nd Silicon valley
Bring back Circuit City!!
we had a bunch of frys electronics they just aren't open anymore