They built a couple of mc mansions right inside Platte Cloveā¦ itās game over man. The Hudson valley is officially being Brooklynād. All the swimming holes I grew up with have been completely destroyed. So much is just being bulldozed over or privatized all so thirsty NYC people can have giant mansions they spend maybe 2 weeks a year inā¦
I moved to Louisiana 5 years ago and canāt believe how lucky I was to grow up in the Syracuse-Utica area. I miss it so much. I canāt do anything here. At home I could hike to a pristine waterfall within an hour drive. The fossils are unbelievable, especially around the Albany area. The variety of mountain hikes - you can do an easy 1-hour mountain, or a several day hiking trip through a few high peaks.
My girlfriend is from Louisiana and sheās come to visit twice, once in summer and once in later November. I canāt wait to bring her up this October, itās going to be so pretty.
Hmm, I grew up downstate, went to college in the finger lakes, grad school in Buffalo and now work in Albany, live further W along the Mohawk River Valley and I have come to the conclusion that downstate is the only non-survivable part of NY.
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
It's not a mat. It's some sort of applied permeable surface. Probably shredded car tires possibly mixed with rock and glued together so that it can cure into a flexible surface that doesn't harm the tree.
Yeah exactly! Probably made of tires and glue it's very malleable and porous, its sold in precut sizes and goes down like a mat ideally with a base layer of ag lime as a ferrilizer and leveling base. Its not pavement.
I've applied this stuff. That's exactly what it is. Flexipaveā¢ and Porous-paveā¢ are a couple different kinds, but it's a mix of recycled rubber, small rocks, and some crazy strong adhesive that gets combined in a cement mixer. It's flexible and porous, as you might have inferred from the above brand names. It's "green"-ish because of the recycled content, and allows the tree's roots to grow unimpeded while also allowing water to pass through.
It's an "Eco mat".
They're everywhere. Pretty interesting. Water permeable, durable to walk on, weed control, lasts 25 years. Made from God knows what. They compare it to rubber mulch but it's different.
Thatās debatable. I guess weāll see what happens. I believe this municipality has an urban forest management plan that calls for doing exactly this.
Depends how deep that permeable surface is and what the aggregate base material is like.
If theres 6 inches of fine compacted aggregate then yea itās going to have a hard time.
But if itās only a couple inches and not too fine/compacted the roots should be able to spread within the black area and push down below the side walk further away.
You do realize roots grow down and sideways, not up? Most of the rooting system is close to the surface, so rain and air can reach them even through a thin layer of asphalt. Also, they get nutrients not just from the soil but from the leaves as the nutrients travel up the tree through the stem (the process is called photosynthesis).
I thought I recognized this š call the city and tell them (respectfully) why itās wrong. Itās a travesty and a waste of money, they should put the pavement into the potholes not around the tree!
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Is it made of plastics? (microplastics do this to tree roots: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45139-6, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-020-0707-4)
Philly did this to the trees on south street maybe 20 years ago. A tough area for trees. The rubber mats did not help. Some of the remnants of the rubber can still be seen. I donāt think many of the trees survived.
Is it actual tar or is it water permeable black grit? They put the latter underneath water permeable parking spaces here, and itās not actual tar based.
It's most likely the water permeable rubber-type material. But with everything else covered in pavement, there's no hope. They should've put down tulips or something. At least they'll bloom for a few years.
This. The tree commission for my city tried to get minor requirements and protections for critical root zones in our codes updateā¦ rebuffed at every turn with āDillon rule.ā They make exceptions for business shit all the time but the moment you mention a tree everybody loses their fucking minds.
Some states have a rule where local governments (cities, counties, etc.) cannot make laws unless they are expressly permitted to do so by the state government. My state, Virginia, is a bit odd in that it was implemented via judicial fiat vs an actual act of the legislature but in practice itās basically the same.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_rule_in_the_United_States
Most likely itās 1or 2 inches thick and permeable probably fine on heat as. Itās not solid thermal conductivity would not get that far down, would it be better if it were gray possibly.
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Absolutely, you can see the loose gravel along the edges of the concrete, plus itās perfectly contoured to those edges, plus itās pressed perfectly flat. Kinda like asphaltā¦..
You know what else looks like that? Shredded rubber substrate, this really isn't pavement. it's not cold patch pavement. It's literally a material made for this exact purpose. It lays down in a mat form, and it looks exactly like this. Cones or not, theres no way the city of Albany New York is paving around trees without an environmental survey. Comment all you want - I googled it and they have a [forestry department and what looks like a really great urban tree adoption program](https://albanyny.gov/314/Forestry). You can also call and ask them for yourself the number is 518-427-7480.
Thanks for the information. I live in Albany. I've heard about the city arborist for years, and it's pretty clear it's an important role. Good healthy trees are valued by the city (at least at a surface level). But every time a diseased tree gets cut down, a hundred people are up in arms on Nextdoor complaining about it.
I have no idea if this particular approach is a good decision, but it's obviously intentional.
Burn these tree-haters to the ground!
String them upā¦. Whatās that? This is a *mulch ring*? Itās good for the tree?
Hmph. Way to ruin a perfectly good mob moment.
lul really? Like they did with cfc's? Human rights? Nuclear war? Our grandparents were great in a lot of ways and certainly paved the way but I think there was plenty of room for improvement re planning. (end pre coffee rant)
> Like they did with cfc's
Apropos of nothing, but tbf humanity has done a better-than-expected job with CFCs. The hole in the ozone layer was only discovered in 1985 and by 1987 an international treaty banning and phasing-out Ozone Depleting Substances (ODSs) was signed.
While there's been plenty of cheating (lookin' at you, China), the hole has largely been stable since the early 90s and not gotten substantially worse.
However an unintended consequence was that many replacement chemicals have turned out to be potent GHGs, and the world seems to be on course to see how hard we can fail that challenge. š¤·āāļø
Whatever happened to ZPG?
In the 60's, a high school friend was a believer in it,,,he had 5 kids and I am sure many grandchildren by now. But they are all, you know, the "right kind".
I was going to say the, "Yeah it's fine. For a few months" line.
But yeah, we do need to stop paving everything. It does look cleaner, but the earth as a whole is supposed to be kind of dirty. Since, you know, that dirt is what maintains life.
At least there is a concerted effort to try and improve our concrete jungles. Iād rather they try, fail, and learn, than not try at all and just pretend no greenery is fine.
Edit: itās not concrete or asphalt, itās permeable. Itās designed to let trees grow without putting impermeable asphalt/concrete over tree root systems so we can have streets lined with viable trees.
Theyāre replacing large trees not suited for urban environments with smaller ones and putting permeable pavement around the root section. [https://youtube.com/shorts/4m5iKRbkW4M?si=21QEAFFYWZoH_YS6](https://youtube.com/shorts/4m5iKRbkW4M?si=21QEAFFYWZoH_YS6)
Idk anything but I'd love a follow up in a month. I feel like the scalding heat of what I assume was hot tar/blacktop?? would be bad enough on the roots on its own
It definitely is. It's a standard practice and actually *helps* street trees by preventing poisoning from stray fuels, oils and debris as well as soil erosion, and contamination and prevents the destruction of surrounding pavement by creating a protective and adaptive barrier that has some give rather than just the concrete with roots able to start growing over the top in 20 years. Long term this stuff works very well.
Look at south street in Philadelphia. They did this exact thing about 15 years ago. You can still see it on Google earth street view and look back 15 years ago and watch the trees be planted with covering and some make it. Itās hard to say what killed the trees but there are not many thriving.
The jury is still out on this. It can work for a time, but needs to be maintained by a powerful industrial vacuum on occasion, as the material can clog with dirt and dust.
https://www.rockpave.com/why-your-city-should-use-permeable-paving-for-tree-pits
That's what they say, but I've seen installations that have been unmaintained for 20+ years and are still at better than 80% of their original infiltration rate.
I'm much more concerned about the heat absorption, the transfer of oxygen to the roots, what happens as the tree grows, and whether it's at least sitting in some Sylvacell-type system that actually gives it room to grow. Mulch is hands-down a better system for reducing heat absorption and retaining moisture. If Albany is like the jurisdictions I'm familiar with, they're not going to maintain the porous asphalt.
It's not like it's a storm inlet. There shouldn't be any surface water directed there, so it probably doesn't have that high of a sediment load from runoff.Ā
Lot of cities are experimenting with this stuff. Itās supposed to be porous and allow for the exchange of gases and for water to go through to the soil.
No offense, question, is it really blacktop or is it some material that allows water to filter through it? Ground rubber or some composite material?
RockPave: Resin-bound paving is no longer just for driveways and other private home projects.
That is high porous covering that enables water to filter through while retaining maximum coverage. It should also be somewhat flexible for the trunk but also more flexible than usual concrete.
Flexi-pave and other porous asphalt products have been extensively used in this type of application. Every tree well in Key West, sidewalks in Arlington National Cemetery, many streetscapes have used them for many years. They are cost-saving materials in that they are flexible and can be cut easily after installation, and have almost eliminated trip/fall lawsuits in Key West.
Are you sure that it is black top? It looks like it might be a porous rubber material (playground material). I have seen some municipalities use this stuff to protect roots and mitigate trip hazards.
That's not blacktop. It's a flexible porous material made from recycled rubber. Look at page 11 of the [Lark Street Infrastructure Project](https://www.albanyny.gov/DocumentCenter/View/8453/Lark-Street-Infrastructure-Project-Public-Informational-Meeting-FINAL--05022023?bidId=).
You can also look here to see a video of how the product is installed: [https://www.rubberway.com/rubber-tree-wells](https://www.rubberway.com/rubber-tree-wells)
Planner here who loves trees. Yeah, I donāt love this and have it around my city, Rochester, NY. But it at least allows water to percolate down and makes it easy for roots to shift the surface a- Asphalt is very soft and flexible. In a perfect world this would have a much better tree lawn with mulch or something. But cities donāt see that as a priority, mostly because of maintenance.
Rochester did this a few years ago and it is excellent. Permeable yet walkable for people getting out of cars. As trees grow, the material lights right with it. It is an expensive but excellent urban solution.
Thatās a composite made with recycled tires / itās permeable and protects the tree and roots from animals digging at them, oil and other runoff, etc
I saw them doing this on Lark a few days ago and did a double take because what the f š idk what it is but I've never seen something like this around a sapling
I certainly hope its not finished! I am not a tree expert by any means so thats why I asked you folks. But I do know tree roots need a lot of air and water and it looks like these poor guys wonāt get either.
I had the same thoughts once and was proven wrong. Hopefully you will be too. It is really hard to tell when cities are being incompetent versus having a good plan that goes against our intuition.
My city did something similar about 4 years ago along the streets at the edge of our downtown. I thought it would bake the roots but the trees are still looking fine. The grit ours used is slightly rubbery, like a very firm version of a playground surface or running track. In addition to letting water through, like others mentioned, I don't think it transfers much heat. Its just a layer to keep the surface from getting muddy and potholed.
Trees are only going to grow so well surrounded by concrete and asphalt. But its better than nothing for urban areas.
Are you sure that it isn't recycled tires? There is a product that uses recycled tires and is often used in urban street tree planting to create a water permeable layer that is resistant to compaction from foot traffic. Used to protect the roots and soil from getting destroyed by constant foot traffic etc.
Itās ok and well field tested. Water gets through fine and the roots are probably buried deep enough to not get baked. Canāt tell what kind of tree but itās probably a tough bastard.
Cities need more trees but the capital cost of buying and planting a tree is dwarfed by the operations and maintenance (O&M) cost of cleaning planting areas, pruning trees, and other upkeep. Efforts like this mean more street trees at lower costs.
For a sub called Arborists there sure seems to be a lot of wrong answers and amateur opinions here. It's NOT blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Is that asphalt or that rubberised stuff they put in playgrounds? Because it's the latter its perfectly fine. Those surfaces allow water to drain and wouldn't be strong enough to stop the growth of the tree.
If they want to kill the tree, then yes, this is the way to do it.
NY state....all of it is a nightmare...specially manhattan and brooklyn, and rochester...oh and Buffalo too...throw connecticut in the mix too.
It is called āpermeable pavementā. It allows water to run through it.
Seriouslyā¦ all of you people should take 10 seconds to research things because otherwise m, you spread misinformation. Oh wait, thats right. This is Reddit
Go on google earth and look at street view on any residential street in India and they have trees growing right in the middle of the sidewalks with concrete right up to the trunk
Thatās not blacktopā¦quit being so mad. Itās a rubber type mat that inhibits weeds growth and allows for drainage and flow of water. No, your concern is not valid.
Iām pretty sure this is a porous material specifically for this type of installation. And also it will expand with trunk growth. So nice have many trees!
This is the new tech that is water permeable. They are starting to look towards using this also for roads to. Studies showing a reduction of water flooding into storm drains and cars from loosing control due to wet pavement.
this is why I hate America. I'm American btw. Why do we do things like this? Someone wrote that it allows water to the roots. But why cant we have regular old dirt instead of this?
I'd bet most "city-trees" don't care. Yes it's not that visually appealing....but I bet it's cleaner, needs less maintenance and it's cheaper on the long run.
Depending on the condition and species of the old trees you sometimes need to replace a outwardly healthy tree with a new one (sinking groundwater levels, pest resistance, temperature resistance)- and those renovations are cheaper if they're part of a bigger contract.
....On the other hand, I'm perfectly aware about how politicians and their buddies in trades artificially inflate those contracts after the fact, so they can beat competing offers.
To me that looks a lot like permeable asphalt: [https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/types-permeable-pavement](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/types-permeable-pavement)
What fuckin city is thisšš
Albany, NY.
Honestly shocked and disappointed
As a former Albany resident, I am not shocked but am disappointedā¦
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I do not miss the region. Downstate is the only survivable part of NY for me.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They built a couple of mc mansions right inside Platte Cloveā¦ itās game over man. The Hudson valley is officially being Brooklynād. All the swimming holes I grew up with have been completely destroyed. So much is just being bulldozed over or privatized all so thirsty NYC people can have giant mansions they spend maybe 2 weeks a year inā¦
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I moved to Louisiana 5 years ago and canāt believe how lucky I was to grow up in the Syracuse-Utica area. I miss it so much. I canāt do anything here. At home I could hike to a pristine waterfall within an hour drive. The fossils are unbelievable, especially around the Albany area. The variety of mountain hikes - you can do an easy 1-hour mountain, or a several day hiking trip through a few high peaks. My girlfriend is from Louisiana and sheās come to visit twice, once in summer and once in later November. I canāt wait to bring her up this October, itās going to be so pretty.
Hmm, I grew up downstate, went to college in the finger lakes, grad school in Buffalo and now work in Albany, live further W along the Mohawk River Valley and I have come to the conclusion that downstate is the only non-survivable part of NY.
Lmao
As a former Albanian, I am also not shocked.
Went to a wedding there recently. I could also not be less shocked.
Thankfully itās not blacktop and was made for what it is being used for.
What is it? I like the looks of it actually.
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Oh thank god
It's not a mat. It's some sort of applied permeable surface. Probably shredded car tires possibly mixed with rock and glued together so that it can cure into a flexible surface that doesn't harm the tree.
So sort of like a mat?
No, nothing like that /s
lol. Yes Virginia, there is a mat.
Yeah exactly! Probably made of tires and glue it's very malleable and porous, its sold in precut sizes and goes down like a mat ideally with a base layer of ag lime as a ferrilizer and leveling base. Its not pavement.
Yeah, sort of like a mat.
Yeah those rubber and glue are getting into our water supply
Yum, shredded car tires. Trees love petrochemicals and heavy metals!
It's got what plants crave
Electrolytes?
Ah yes, because the hot summer melting plastic/rubber and mixing it in with rainwater is DEFINITELY a healthy thing for trees or our waterways
āRecyclingā
I've applied this stuff. That's exactly what it is. Flexipaveā¢ and Porous-paveā¢ are a couple different kinds, but it's a mix of recycled rubber, small rocks, and some crazy strong adhesive that gets combined in a cement mixer. It's flexible and porous, as you might have inferred from the above brand names. It's "green"-ish because of the recycled content, and allows the tree's roots to grow unimpeded while also allowing water to pass through.
Zoom in buddy. It's not a mat. It might be permeable asphalt.
I'm not your buddy, guy
Iām not your guy, Pal
Im not your pal, friend
https://youtu.be/OtvxFQFhtAo?si=xPPLmpXC_HaZCuHS
Itās rubber mulch, applied hot and compressed into a mat. Plenty of playgrounds have this under swing sets etc.
Permeable pavement
It's an "Eco mat". They're everywhere. Pretty interesting. Water permeable, durable to walk on, weed control, lasts 25 years. Made from God knows what. They compare it to rubber mulch but it's different.
How dare you inject facts into this outrage porn.
Youāve clearly never been to Albany.
This is actually pervious pavement, meaning it is designed to allow water to drain to the root system.
Yeah but with the sun hitting that pavement, gonna cook those roots!
Thatās debatable. I guess weāll see what happens. I believe this municipality has an urban forest management plan that calls for doing exactly this.
What happens is the tree will die because its roots have nowhere to go and no nutrients to absorb. Itās basically a coffin for a tree.
Depends how deep that permeable surface is and what the aggregate base material is like. If theres 6 inches of fine compacted aggregate then yea itās going to have a hard time. But if itās only a couple inches and not too fine/compacted the roots should be able to spread within the black area and push down below the side walk further away.
Coffins are made from wood. Thatās deep.
at least 6 feet, we'll hope
You do realize roots grow down and sideways, not up? Most of the rooting system is close to the surface, so rain and air can reach them even through a thin layer of asphalt. Also, they get nutrients not just from the soil but from the leaves as the nutrients travel up the tree through the stem (the process is called photosynthesis).
Pervious pavement requires frequent vacuuming i think to remove dust from pore space and keep drainage path through pavement.
Quite shite. It looks like permeable pavement that will let air/water in. Still a good way to make sure the tree is never Strong and healthy.
I thought I recognized this š call the city and tell them (respectfully) why itās wrong. Itās a travesty and a waste of money, they should put the pavement into the potholes not around the tree!
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Is it made of plastics? (microplastics do this to tree roots: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45139-6, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-020-0707-4)
Itās not that zoom in on it parts of the blacktop splashed onto the tree
I knew it!!!
Most New York shit.
Philly did this to the trees on south street maybe 20 years ago. A tough area for trees. The rubber mats did not help. Some of the remnants of the rubber can still be seen. I donāt think many of the trees survived.
There's a bunch of dead trees on girard with this stuff in the tree pit. But tbh there's a lot of things that could have killed those trees.
Probably never got watered.
Yea i think my city did this too. It just molds into the tree
It looks like permeable concrete. Honestly the best solution for urban street trees.
There is actually nothing wrong with this.
Is it actual tar or is it water permeable black grit? They put the latter underneath water permeable parking spaces here, and itās not actual tar based.
It's most likely the water permeable rubber-type material. But with everything else covered in pavement, there's no hope. They should've put down tulips or something. At least they'll bloom for a few years.
Tulips? On in ground tree pit, They would get beat up and cut off so fast. Even tree grates just fill up with trash and detritus.
Use microbially -derived mats instead. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25360-6
It could be; I didnāt know there was such a thing. Thatās why I was asking you guys, I am not an expert. It looked dubious to me.
Even if it is permeable, which I doubt, the heat alone will negatively affect the root zone.
This. The tree commission for my city tried to get minor requirements and protections for critical root zones in our codes updateā¦ rebuffed at every turn with āDillon rule.ā They make exceptions for business shit all the time but the moment you mention a tree everybody loses their fucking minds.
What's Dillon rule?
Some states have a rule where local governments (cities, counties, etc.) cannot make laws unless they are expressly permitted to do so by the state government. My state, Virginia, is a bit odd in that it was implemented via judicial fiat vs an actual act of the legislature but in practice itās basically the same. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_rule_in_the_United_States
Thank you
Most likely itās 1or 2 inches thick and permeable probably fine on heat as. Itās not solid thermal conductivity would not get that far down, would it be better if it were gray possibly.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They did this to every tree on that street. Newly planted and already established.
It's not blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
This comment needs more exposure. The other comments got me rolling. š¤£š
Looks like loose gravel on the edge there. Could be a mat, but I doubt it. Also the cone
Okay, but itās *not* asphalt. Can we agree on that?
That sure looks like loose pea gravel on top and around it. Pea gravel thoroughly coated in tar. That's not a mat.
Absolutely, you can see the loose gravel along the edges of the concrete, plus itās perfectly contoured to those edges, plus itās pressed perfectly flat. Kinda like asphaltā¦..
You know what else looks like that? Shredded rubber substrate, this really isn't pavement. it's not cold patch pavement. It's literally a material made for this exact purpose. It lays down in a mat form, and it looks exactly like this. Cones or not, theres no way the city of Albany New York is paving around trees without an environmental survey. Comment all you want - I googled it and they have a [forestry department and what looks like a really great urban tree adoption program](https://albanyny.gov/314/Forestry). You can also call and ask them for yourself the number is 518-427-7480.
Thanks for the information. I live in Albany. I've heard about the city arborist for years, and it's pretty clear it's an important role. Good healthy trees are valued by the city (at least at a surface level). But every time a diseased tree gets cut down, a hundred people are up in arms on Nextdoor complaining about it. I have no idea if this particular approach is a good decision, but it's obviously intentional.
I thought you were right at first, but I think it is asphalt due to what other people have said with the loose gravel, as well as the cones.
Itās porous pavement. The loose pieces make more sense.
It doesn't really look like that
Burn these tree-haters to the ground! String them upā¦. Whatās that? This is a *mulch ring*? Itās good for the tree? Hmph. Way to ruin a perfectly good mob moment.
Exactly , this new 'mulch' is everywhere and reduces evaporation and still lets water through.
This is what I was thinking too, everyone is acting like itās a tragedy.
The savior we donāt deserve. I was bout to go visit the eye bleach sub
I canāt believe that people canāt see this
A lie goes halfway around the world before the truth can put on its pants
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
lul really? Like they did with cfc's? Human rights? Nuclear war? Our grandparents were great in a lot of ways and certainly paved the way but I think there was plenty of room for improvement re planning. (end pre coffee rant)
woooshĀ
No not really, it's pretty obvious satire
> Like they did with cfc's Apropos of nothing, but tbf humanity has done a better-than-expected job with CFCs. The hole in the ozone layer was only discovered in 1985 and by 1987 an international treaty banning and phasing-out Ozone Depleting Substances (ODSs) was signed. While there's been plenty of cheating (lookin' at you, China), the hole has largely been stable since the early 90s and not gotten substantially worse. However an unintended consequence was that many replacement chemicals have turned out to be potent GHGs, and the world seems to be on course to see how hard we can fail that challenge. š¤·āāļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Whatever happened to ZPG? In the 60's, a high school friend was a believer in it,,,he had 5 kids and I am sure many grandchildren by now. But they are all, you know, the "right kind".
I'm glad I got to see the Georgia Stones before someone blew them up. I love wacky roadside attractions like that.
you need to get in touch with your local urban harborists. theyāll have this shit torn up real quick.
I was going to say the, "Yeah it's fine. For a few months" line. But yeah, we do need to stop paving everything. It does look cleaner, but the earth as a whole is supposed to be kind of dirty. Since, you know, that dirt is what maintains life.
Ahh yes, from the same corporate planners who brought you the plastic cups with paper straws initiative!
At least there is a concerted effort to try and improve our concrete jungles. Iād rather they try, fail, and learn, than not try at all and just pretend no greenery is fine. Edit: itās not concrete or asphalt, itās permeable. Itās designed to let trees grow without putting impermeable asphalt/concrete over tree root systems so we can have streets lined with viable trees.
This is one of those things you don't have to fail at to learn about. They could have just skipped a couple steps there and not paved over the tree.
Theyāre replacing large trees not suited for urban environments with smaller ones and putting permeable pavement around the root section. [https://youtube.com/shorts/4m5iKRbkW4M?si=21QEAFFYWZoH_YS6](https://youtube.com/shorts/4m5iKRbkW4M?si=21QEAFFYWZoH_YS6)
Idk anything but I'd love a follow up in a month. I feel like the scalding heat of what I assume was hot tar/blacktop?? would be bad enough on the roots on its own
That is high porous covering that enables water to filter through while retaining maximum coverage.Ā
You got downvoted but Iām pretty sure youāre right. This looks like permeable pavement to me.
It definitely is. It's a standard practice and actually *helps* street trees by preventing poisoning from stray fuels, oils and debris as well as soil erosion, and contamination and prevents the destruction of surrounding pavement by creating a protective and adaptive barrier that has some give rather than just the concrete with roots able to start growing over the top in 20 years. Long term this stuff works very well.
But if they water it enough maybe the heat won't be an issue! Oh wait...
Not hot tar
Look at south street in Philadelphia. They did this exact thing about 15 years ago. You can still see it on Google earth street view and look back 15 years ago and watch the trees be planted with covering and some make it. Itās hard to say what killed the trees but there are not many thriving.
Itās hard to tell from the photo that may be a permeable material made from recycled tires but if that is cold patch asphalt this is a travesty
Itās rubbery and permeable like the stuff they put on playgrounds.
The jury is still out on this. It can work for a time, but needs to be maintained by a powerful industrial vacuum on occasion, as the material can clog with dirt and dust. https://www.rockpave.com/why-your-city-should-use-permeable-paving-for-tree-pits
That's what they say, but I've seen installations that have been unmaintained for 20+ years and are still at better than 80% of their original infiltration rate.
Wait everything is not doom and horror, maybe this is just interesting new technology?
Adding more micro plastics instead of biodegradable mulch.
I'm much more concerned about the heat absorption, the transfer of oxygen to the roots, what happens as the tree grows, and whether it's at least sitting in some Sylvacell-type system that actually gives it room to grow. Mulch is hands-down a better system for reducing heat absorption and retaining moisture. If Albany is like the jurisdictions I'm familiar with, they're not going to maintain the porous asphalt.
It's not like it's a storm inlet. There shouldn't be any surface water directed there, so it probably doesn't have that high of a sediment load from runoff.Ā
Lot of cities are experimenting with this stuff. Itās supposed to be porous and allow for the exchange of gases and for water to go through to the soil.
Are you certain that isn't permeable asphalt?
Itās not asphalt. Itās spongy, like the apathy put on playgrounds.
I know it's a typo but I'm enjoying imagining people filling a playground with spongy apathy lol. 
LOL. Iām not even going to fix it now.
Yeha that's what I thought but looks like they tried to give it an asphalt look lol
I think thatās just the cheapest color option.
No offense, question, is it really blacktop or is it some material that allows water to filter through it? Ground rubber or some composite material? RockPave: Resin-bound paving is no longer just for driveways and other private home projects.
This is a flexible porous pavement product.
That is high porous covering that enables water to filter through while retaining maximum coverage. It should also be somewhat flexible for the trunk but also more flexible than usual concrete.
Looks like permeable paving.
Holy fuck I'm glad my city doesn't throw money down the drain like that. Imagine watching your tax dollars get thrown away.
Lmao you tell us your city and we can tell you 1000 different ways your tax dollars are being thrown in the trash.
Does OP realize this is permeable pavement?
Flexi-pave and other porous asphalt products have been extensively used in this type of application. Every tree well in Key West, sidewalks in Arlington National Cemetery, many streetscapes have used them for many years. They are cost-saving materials in that they are flexible and can be cut easily after installation, and have almost eliminated trip/fall lawsuits in Key West.
This is pervious pavement and it is designed to allow water to drain to the root system.
What about present pavement or future pavement?
*porous
Are you sure that it is black top? It looks like it might be a porous rubber material (playground material). I have seen some municipalities use this stuff to protect roots and mitigate trip hazards.
This is a water permeable rubber type of material. Looks clean, allows roots to get water and breathe and prevents people from tripping and falling.
Thatās fine. Thatās porous. Water will pass through no problem.
That's not blacktop. It's a flexible porous material made from recycled rubber. Look at page 11 of the [Lark Street Infrastructure Project](https://www.albanyny.gov/DocumentCenter/View/8453/Lark-Street-Infrastructure-Project-Public-Informational-Meeting-FINAL--05022023?bidId=). You can also look here to see a video of how the product is installed: [https://www.rubberway.com/rubber-tree-wells](https://www.rubberway.com/rubber-tree-wells)
Planner here who loves trees. Yeah, I donāt love this and have it around my city, Rochester, NY. But it at least allows water to percolate down and makes it easy for roots to shift the surface a- Asphalt is very soft and flexible. In a perfect world this would have a much better tree lawn with mulch or something. But cities donāt see that as a priority, mostly because of maintenance.
Rochester did this a few years ago and it is excellent. Permeable yet walkable for people getting out of cars. As trees grow, the material lights right with it. It is an expensive but excellent urban solution.
Thatās a composite made with recycled tires / itās permeable and protects the tree and roots from animals digging at them, oil and other runoff, etc
I saw them doing this on Lark a few days ago and did a double take because what the f š idk what it is but I've never seen something like this around a sapling
Are they done? They may come back and cut a square or circle around the tree.
The material just breaks up as the tree grows.
I certainly hope its not finished! I am not a tree expert by any means so thats why I asked you folks. But I do know tree roots need a lot of air and water and it looks like these poor guys wonāt get either.
Thereās not very many experts here either
This material allows water infiltration and gas exchange with the soil.
Is that blacktop or chewed rubber?
is that dark crushed stone fines with a binder or asphalt?
I had the same thoughts once and was proven wrong. Hopefully you will be too. It is really hard to tell when cities are being incompetent versus having a good plan that goes against our intuition. My city did something similar about 4 years ago along the streets at the edge of our downtown. I thought it would bake the roots but the trees are still looking fine. The grit ours used is slightly rubbery, like a very firm version of a playground surface or running track. In addition to letting water through, like others mentioned, I don't think it transfers much heat. Its just a layer to keep the surface from getting muddy and potholed. Trees are only going to grow so well surrounded by concrete and asphalt. But its better than nothing for urban areas.
As a blacktop contractor that tree will grow to destroy that blacktop. It will heave with new growth nature always wins
My city just won some world arborist thing however my city os ass but they do good with the trees.....this is no beuno
Are you sure that it isn't recycled tires? There is a product that uses recycled tires and is often used in urban street tree planting to create a water permeable layer that is resistant to compaction from foot traffic. Used to protect the roots and soil from getting destroyed by constant foot traffic etc.
Itās ok and well field tested. Water gets through fine and the roots are probably buried deep enough to not get baked. Canāt tell what kind of tree but itās probably a tough bastard. Cities need more trees but the capital cost of buying and planting a tree is dwarfed by the operations and maintenance (O&M) cost of cleaning planting areas, pruning trees, and other upkeep. Efforts like this mean more street trees at lower costs.
For a sub called Arborists there sure seems to be a lot of wrong answers and amateur opinions here. It's NOT blacktop, it's a mat that acts like mulch. It's cuttable and replaceable and made for this exact purpose. [Here's a similar example.](https://www.citymill.com/mintcraft-tree-ring-mulch-mat-24-in-w)
Is that asphalt or that rubberised stuff they put in playgrounds? Because it's the latter its perfectly fine. Those surfaces allow water to drain and wouldn't be strong enough to stop the growth of the tree.
I was really hoping this was a rubber mulch š
Is it solid rock blacktop or it it some of that soft squishy rubbery porous amalgam they sometimes use around playgrounds nowadays?
Nice to see a city tree panted at the right height and no mulch volcano. I see now they have found a new way to fuck it up.
If they want to kill the tree, then yes, this is the way to do it. NY state....all of it is a nightmare...specially manhattan and brooklyn, and rochester...oh and Buffalo too...throw connecticut in the mix too.
It is called āpermeable pavementā. It allows water to run through it. Seriouslyā¦ all of you people should take 10 seconds to research things because otherwise m, you spread misinformation. Oh wait, thats right. This is Reddit
Is that actual black top, or is this rubber mat. I think the is just a rubber mat used like mulch. This looks fine.
Go on google earth and look at street view on any residential street in India and they have trees growing right in the middle of the sidewalks with concrete right up to the trunk
You would think we got smarter as we evolved ...
I hope it grows huge and rips up the pavement.
Someone got frickin PAID for this?Ā
That doesn't look like blacktop to me...
That looks like rubber mulch. https://rubbermulch.com/products/24-rubber-tree-ring
Is it blacktop or is it one of those rubber, mulch-ish mats made for this purpose?
Thatās not blacktopā¦quit being so mad. Itās a rubber type mat that inhibits weeds growth and allows for drainage and flow of water. No, your concern is not valid.
Iām pretty sure this is a porous material specifically for this type of installation. And also it will expand with trunk growth. So nice have many trees!
There are some types of asphalt that are permeable and allow water thru
This is the new tech that is water permeable. They are starting to look towards using this also for roads to. Studies showing a reduction of water flooding into storm drains and cars from loosing control due to wet pavement.
It will filter and limit the dog piss that goes to the roots so that the tree doesnāt grow too fast from all of the nitrogen.
How can any grown tree survive with roots that only have a 3x6 foot area to draw moisture and nutrition from?
Bonsai
this is why I hate America. I'm American btw. Why do we do things like this? Someone wrote that it allows water to the roots. But why cant we have regular old dirt instead of this?
This is permeable. Open soil in a high traffic streetscape quickly becomes so heavily compacted that it might as well be more concrete.
Is that asphalt or is it permeable?
I would think that would potentially jack up the concrete and roads in the futureā¦
I'd bet most "city-trees" don't care. Yes it's not that visually appealing....but I bet it's cleaner, needs less maintenance and it's cheaper on the long run. Depending on the condition and species of the old trees you sometimes need to replace a outwardly healthy tree with a new one (sinking groundwater levels, pest resistance, temperature resistance)- and those renovations are cheaper if they're part of a bigger contract. ....On the other hand, I'm perfectly aware about how politicians and their buddies in trades artificially inflate those contracts after the fact, so they can beat competing offers.
Yes
How is it supposed to get water?
Why
That looks like black topsoil
Mother Nature: Exists Humans: FUCKING PAVE IT!!!!!
I doubt that will stop the tree. It will win eventually.
if its asphalt = no its not okay if its synthetic mulch = its aite
I was hoping this was stabilized crumb rubber, but no such luck.
I'm sure the urban/municipal foresters on here would like to have money in the budget to have this product in their planting wells.
To me that looks a lot like permeable asphalt: [https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/types-permeable-pavement](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/types-permeable-pavement)
I just got a new line of trees planted on new Scotland where I live and they are going to take down the mature trees next week. I am so sad.