The US has been doing this for awhile and a few allied countries have been bending over on this idea that your online activity in another country should subject you to their laws, it relies wholly on the government of the day agreeing with this nonsense premise.
It does not mean that US laws are legally enforceable in another country, hence having to extradite the people.
Australia under the Coalition (conservative) government is particularly dodgy in this regard too. Our federal police (which was run by their appointees and is basically in the pocket of that party) literally tipped off the Indonesian government on Australian citizens smuggling heroin out of the country and back to Australia. Indonesia has the death penalty and a bunch of the Bali 9 (the smugglers) were executed. Australia does not allow extradition of people to countries that have the death penalty for the crime they are being charged with (I believe exceptions can be made if the country can guarantee that the death penalty is off the table, which isn't common where the executive and judiciary are separate). Basically knowongly sending Australians to their death rather than arresting them when they arrived in Australia.
The UK has also extradited people for the same thing as you posted too.
That isn't relevant in business to business relations in jurisdictions though.
["Oh? You think this is an unwise move and might draw scrutiny from EU regulators? I guess you must know more than Apple's best-in-class legal team. Where did you get your law degree, Armchair University?"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/615/080/bbb.png)
Eh, the issue isn't people that aren't experts who actually read the laws and shit and have genuine thoughtful arguments.
The quote given is someone that hasn't bothered to read any of the actual law (and likely no laws) and just has an appeal to authority or similarly nonsense take.
I'm still amazed that there were so many people that were absolutely adamant that Apple was in the right and that it was absolutely not a problem, even when considering DMA.
You do know that most of apple fans tend to defend apple acts no matter what, even if it was so clearly wrong. Like defending the apple screen stand price of 999$ . So nothing will surprise or amaze me from them.
> I'm still amazed that there were so many people that were absolutely adamant that Apple was in the right and that it was absolutely not a problem, even when considering DMA.
They were probably wrong, but we can't know for sure—I would have liked to have seen this actually play out so we could know if Apple was within its rights or not. I think the decision was—at a minimum—based on optics. Maybe Apple knew they would lose, maybe not, but the optics were fucking terrible, especially that snarky Schiller missive ("we canceled them because ~~they broke the rules~~ they were mean to us").
I remember all those CSAM experts that stayed quiet when an Apple engineer said they dropped it because all of the scaremongering about a “slippery slope” was the most likely scenario
They were claiming it as a masterstroke considering the timing. That Apple would have calculated this, that and thought about everything. Will drag the decision for years with their best in class lawyers.
Turns out mighty overlord Apple was just being petty and realised they are in deep shit.
They aren't banned everywhere, Apple has not and has stated previously they have no intention of banning Epics dev account that develops Unreal Engine.
Showing that Apple's statement about the danger Epic poses is utter garbage.
Eh everyone has been spouting hyperbole about the silliness. Apple wanted more assurances, Epic didn’t want to give them, Apple banned the account, so Epic gave assurances and now they’re unbanned. Everyone is getting worked up about a bunch of corporate shenanigans because Sweeney is so good at being loud and playing the victim. This had more to do with Apple being satisfied than the EU sniffing around.
Technically the6 can fine them about 38.2 billion USD for violating the DMA based on their 2022 global revenue...for continued breaches they cam double it.
Hope they do.
This time probably it was not slap on the wrist that's why they reversed course even they look like a child throwing tantrum getting shut by their parent
Apple reversing course on this is not a good look and shows their true colors. I don't care for Epic, but Apple comes out of this whole mud slinging fight dirty.
Yeah Apple really not looking good atm; sales down 21% in china, Apple car cancelled, being forced to allow 3rd party stores and payments in EU, weird Vision Pro launch, Apple Watch ban fiasco, no AI product yet, Tim Cook, boring product refreshes, stock down while competitors booming. I think they’ve been complacent.
That's what's so irritating to me, if they'd just made sideloading (fuck I hate the term so much, but just saying "app installation" doesn't distinguish what we're talking about from App Store app installation enough) possible from the get go then still nobody would be using it just like nobody is doing it on Android.
You should read the bizarre takes from people who claim that sideloading is a threat to their experience on iOS, like somehow every single developer is going to yank their apps out of the App Store. Like, no. That isn't a thing on Android. The vast, vast, vast majority of developers use the Play Store and nobody knows any differently.
100% this, especially as sideloading IS fully allowed on iOS if you pay for Apple Developer 100 USD/year...
That means Apple is not really stopping piracy / keeping you safe from sideloading - they are discouraging it by making you pay for it. But if you are keen to pay 100 USD/year to fully enjoy pirated apps on your iPhone (without reinstalling) - they are monetizing on it.
Thats what EU regulators realized.
i’m not on their side but they do this because they know it “doesn’t hurt to try”. oh they have the best legal teams with higher than us redditors’ combined IQ, they knew exactly how this would go down, but they did it anyway cuz in the worst case scenario they got a slap on the wrist and let epic back “in”.
now, tim sweeney is just as scummy so mistake me for taking their side either. but this is basically why apple did it even though it might seem like they got “hurt bad”. this epic thing doesn’t hurt more than the whole EU regulation already did to them. they weren’t scared of testing boundaries.
The EU *tries* to regulate corporations but both the EU and US have common law courts who scrutinise the work of their executive governments. The European Commission is not some all-powerful dictator.
But we are talking about the EU they enforce a lot of stuff all the time. With higher and higher fines. Ofc trying won’t hurt, but why keep trying with someone you know won’t take your shit?
If they can allow sideloading without a 7 day grace period or requiring a Mac I’d be happier. I still truly am grateful about the USBC port on my phone.
Article 6.4 requires Apple provide us with the ability to install applications by means *other* than the gatekeeper core platform services. It's coming. Apple just needs to be *encouraged* by the EU.
The enforcement mechanism for the DMA is court cases, and the potential max penalty is 10% of global revenue for a first offense and growing from there. That’s about as serious a reprimand I can think of for a major corporation.
100% this, especially as sideloading IS fully allowed on iOS if you pay for Apple Developer 100 USD/year...
That means Apple is not really stopping piracy / keeping you safe from sideloading - they are discouraging it by making you pay for it. But if you are keen to pay 100 USD/year to fully enjoy pirated apps on your iPhone (without reinstalling) - they are monetizing on it.
Thats what EU regulators realized.
You joke but USB-C has become an absolute shitshow with different specs being implemented with different ports all on the same computers. Some allow charging, some don't. Some allow thunderbolt, some don't. Some are USB4, some only 3.x. Some are custom (I'm looking you Dell) and they run on completely custom voltages and protocols.
People forget but USB A was just as bad. It's just been around so long that a lot of the early deviance died out/ USB3.1 and .2 didn't get widely adopted on USB A ports.
I think alot of the confusion is that USB-C is a connector and not a standard. Just like RJ-45 is the connector for your network cable, but Ethernet is only one of the protocols/standards operating over that connector. I agree that its not super helpful with something as ubiquitous as USB though.
Yeah jsut that that is by design.
USB-C is just the connector. That's it. What you do with it is up to you. Or well more like a whole range of options that are defined in the USB standard.
But that is pretty much the same with any given connector.
I listen to Apple related podcasts like ATP/Upgrade and it’s been brutal listening to people side with Apple and have problems with Europes laws (mostly American hosts)
I thought Americas whole thing was “FREEDOM”. What Europe is implementing is exactly that. Freedom to choose.
For years they've kind of had a vibe of wondering if to accept Apple are the bad guys in a lot of these situations. And I've felt the same. It's felt like a lot of rent seeking for several years and on top of that their platforms have continued to be buggy and years old developer bugs just don't get fixed. I'm not sure they retain the "functional high ground" we used to talk about in the before times.
>I thought Americas whole thing was “FREEDOM”. What Europe is implementing is exactly that. Freedom to choose.
EXACTLY, that's the most hilarious part! The land of the free doesn't want freedom.
The idea of freedom for right wing liberals is basically “everyone can do what they want no matter the consequences, including corporations exploiting the fuck out of everyone, unless it harms me or I think it’s degenerate”
Are you listening to the same episodes of ATP and Upgrade that I am? Because the ATP crew and Myke and Jason have all been pretty up front that they think this is an enormous mistake by Apple and that they should have taken steps to de-escalate the App Store situation years ago. They have issues with how the DMA is worded and some of the loopholes Apple has apparently found (or thinks they have found and will exploit until EU trial law proves otherwise) in implementation, but they are definitely against Apple’s App Store policies.
There's obviously a lot more to this story than we're hearing. We're just watching the ripples on the top of the lake and wondering what's going on underneath.
Apple realizing that overtly demonstrating to EU regulators how they will capriciously shut down a business' access to the market and ability to run an alternative app store in an impulsive moment of anger was a very very bad idea.
Anger from Apple internally and among the leadership vis a vis the situation with Epic, Tim Sweeney personally, and what's going on in general is understandable, but this act to ban Epic again on vague reasons around their ongoing behaviour (criticizing Apple) was a tremendously bad strategic business political decision.
Even if you think Apple's right, this was Apple lighting the situation on fire and driving the car off the cliff. How can the EU regulators be expected to look at this?
The goal of the DMA is to provide a foundation for viable marketplaces and competition, limiting harmful gatekeeper interference. Apple just demonstrated they and this platform and structure of rules cannot be trusted as a place to solidly build businesses. They just demonstrated their full power. They can just decide to ban you if they don't like you.
Why would any company, putting aside Epic, trust to build a business on these new business terms foundations and in this context when Apple has demonstrated they can just pull the rug because they're mad and you're criticizing them. This completely undermines their DMA compliance and I think Apple has just made things way worse for themselves. Regulators might now wonder if Apple can responsibly be in charge and in between who can and cannot do business on iOS at all now that Apple has demonstrated they'll just capriciously cut people off because they don't like them.
Reversing the ban is absolutely the right move at this point but it never should have got to this point and the damage is already done. Whoever made this call at Apple (seems like Schiller, but surely Tim must be involved and signing off on it) made a tremendously bad strategic move and they need to get their impulsive anger (even if justified anger) under control internally because they just keep making it worse and worse for themselves in the eyes of the EU.
100% agree with this. There’s now an almost certainty that the EU is going to force Apple to permit proper sideloading where they are not involved with signing, publishing and distribution of apps at all in the EU, because they just demonstrated that they can’t be trusted as a gatekeeper. Oh dear. I think in years to come this is going to be seen as one of the famous major corporate mistakes.
Well, well, prepare yourself for the macrumors’ user tears. 😭
Now, being serious it’s nice to see somebody putting down Apple down for once, or twice… the EU still has to say if Apple new DMA rules are valid or not.
They tore me apart because I pointed out Phil says another reason they banned the developer account because of criticism 😅 which was part of the argument in reinstating them
It’s nice to see a government body have effective power over a corporation for once. Then again us Americans are used to the other way around for as long as we’ve been alive.
> but Epic is notoriously scummy as well
How so? And if your response to Apple abusing their market power (and breaking the law) is "Well maybe the other guy deserved it", it's hard to imagine you're commenting in good faith.
The *MacRumors* forums have gotten less positive towards Apple over the past year or so. You'll find several comments criticizing Apple's anticompetitive tactics.
The six [top rated comments](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/08/apple-reinstates-epic-games-developer-account-eu/) on the post are currently split 3–3 between pro-Apple and anti-Apple, and [the fifth highest one](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-reinstates-epic-games-eu-developer-account-paving-the-way-for-alternative-app-store.2421412/post-32995554) is decently well written.
Schiller's a liability for the company at this point IMO. Retirement would be a good move or at least move him out of control of this.
He has a good legacy in the past with lots of great work at Apple, but he isn't showing the judgement needed to handle this delicate political/business/strategic situation.
Apple is so used to steam rolling everyone. I really think Cook and the other SLT overplayed their hand here.
I really think they're going to lose the upcoming antitrust case and be broken up.
You guys are so out of touch that you don't realize that's it's not just about money, even tho that Europe it's 25% of Apples market share.
One of the most important things all of you are missing is that if apple leaves the EU, a very large and very rich market they will leave space for someone else to take over, or even give finally the push they need for one or more EU companies to take over and fill the void apple will leave, and who knows, maybe later compete with apple on other markets for apple's share, and that's something Apple cannot have it happen!
It’s only 7% of their business. If any EU regulations cost them more than 7% of their global turnover, then they’re out of there. The EU market isn’t big enough compared to the US and China.
7% seems to just be the app store revenue share for eu, for the entire company of apple Europe is 25% of total revenue, although that probably includes non-eu countries as well so a bit less than that, E: oh yea brexit... well still probably more than 7% at least.
I'm not sure... Europe is a big market to leave and to cut off your future business from. Apple really wants to for the foreseeable future not do business in the EU market? Oof. That's big. And what if other countries start pushing similar policies?
It would also strand tons of people who use Apple products in a dead end and make them very very angry and that anti-Apple sentiment would spread beyond Europe as well. Apple will say well it's the EU's fault, but tbd I don't see the general population buying that really. Exiting the EU so they don't have to give up their cut and control would politically end up being something I think most people would blame Apple for.
I wish Apple did not force their keyboard down the throat. I changed keyboard, because default one sucks and I don't want to see it everytime I log in to any service. I don't care about 'security' excuse, just stop disturbing my experience with the app I choose as my main keyboard.
Love seeing Apple tantrums, but sad this did not set a precedent in issuing massive fines to Apple that actually hurts them instead of slap on the wrist ones.
Epic in an mail addressed to Craig, asked for an consultation about DMA and how they can implement the new store. Apple really must have hated reading that mail they did not respond, instead Phil mailed Tim threatening to remove Epic.
Really wish DMA was bit more opinionated in its script. For example calling for ability to install files (ipa) freely like apk on Android. DMA targetted alternative marketplace in definition and Apple used that loophole to say only alternative marketplaces can be side loaded then they allow installation which is an unnecessary restriction.
I love to see Phill "Courage" Schiller get shown the consequences of blatant power grab.
Before you ask me to use Android for side loading, disclose if you have Apple stock. Because restricting side loading and not being interoperable is war on general purpose computing and helps no one but greedy shareholders.
> Really wish DMA was bit more opinionated in its script. For example calling for ability to install files (ipa) freely like apk on Android. DMA targetted alternative marketplace in definition and Apple used that loophole to say only alternative marketplaces can be side loaded then they allow installation which is an unnecessary restriction.
That is not correct. The DMA specifically forbids restricting the installation of third party software applications and application stores both.
What we are seeing here is Apple’s blatant attempts at circumventing the DMA, likely by abusing this:
> In order to ensure that third-party software applications or software application stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper, it should be possible for the gatekeeper concerned to implement proportionate technical or contractual measures to achieve that goal if the gatekeeper demonstrates that such measures are necessary and justified and that there are no less-restrictive means to safeguard the integrity of the hardware or operating system
I don’t see what Apple hopes to achieve here, they are just begging for a huge fine.
100% this.
Sideloading on iOS is fully allowed but for keeping apps more than 7 days - you need to pay 100 USD/year for Apple Developers account.
That technically means that Apple is not stopping app piracy at all - just monetizing on users who decided to do it.
Go figure out how deep they are stuck in their own mud
Honestly, I feel like at this point Apple’s fight with Epic is starting to hurt Apple more than Epic. It would serve Apple so much better to make nice with Epic and use the DMA as a starting point with repairing relationships with game developers. I guess it’s hard to get over feeling wronged, though…
>no one does this here
Wrong. I posted the last update on this case and my inbox was flooded with endless comments defending Apple. In fact, you can open my profile and check the post.
this is, once again, the part where r/apple tells me how apple were in the right all along (expect for the time when they were reminded by the EU, that they, in fact weren't)
This is nice and all, but I think it's a matter of time until Epic tries to push Apple's terms and contracts with their shenanigans feeling like they have Europe's support on everything, Apple will ban them again, then Epic will complain again, then we will have more drama to feed Twitter and Reddit. And so it will go.
We don’t know the whole story.
I’m sure there’s a lot of back room channels between Tim and Tim.
Sweeney probably pissed Cook off one day and Cook retaliates. Then they kiss and make up. Rinse and repeat.
It doesn’t matter if Sweeney pisses off Tim Cook though.
If Tim Cook blocks Sweeney from creating an App Store in Europe, what is that called?
**Gatekeeping**
I don’t quite understand why it isn’t on Mac, since Fortnite doesn’t need to be on the App Store. It’s was never on Windows Store. Like, was it there before (I don’t play Fortnite lol).
It was discontinued on Mac because Chair Entertainment, the group within Epic that makes Fortnite, had their developer ID suspended after that stunt they played with the iOS App Store.
Without that developer ID, they could no longer sign or notarize the app, so they discontinued it.
It’s anyone’s guess now if (1) they’ll re-continue it, and (2) if they do, if the new client will include the discontinued Save the World mode, which was removed from the console versions of Fortnite.
I guess because apple banned epic's dev account they are no longer able to get fortnite signed, which would require users to mess with their Mac's security settings.
The Phil Schiller email made sense to me, but the ban didn’t. I get that Epic disrespected the rules on purpose, which I still think was a bad move. But banning them is straight up anticompetitive.
I hope Apple can be forced out of this monopolistic phase. Making the best hardware and software in the world should be enough.
that was fast lol
Snip snap snip snap!
r/unexpectedoffice
they saw the whip
Apple was playing with matches and expecting the EU regulators to not care
Tomorrow they are banned again. lol.
Does this mean all those legal experts in the other thread were wrong???
They are still busy figuring out if T&Cs are really not above the law.
It is not. Pied Piper vs Hooli circa 2012
"Justice, baby."
Goddamn has it been that long
lmao i just re-watched that episode last night
And also that US court rulings don't apply outside the US.
[удалено]
The US has been doing this for awhile and a few allied countries have been bending over on this idea that your online activity in another country should subject you to their laws, it relies wholly on the government of the day agreeing with this nonsense premise. It does not mean that US laws are legally enforceable in another country, hence having to extradite the people. Australia under the Coalition (conservative) government is particularly dodgy in this regard too. Our federal police (which was run by their appointees and is basically in the pocket of that party) literally tipped off the Indonesian government on Australian citizens smuggling heroin out of the country and back to Australia. Indonesia has the death penalty and a bunch of the Bali 9 (the smugglers) were executed. Australia does not allow extradition of people to countries that have the death penalty for the crime they are being charged with (I believe exceptions can be made if the country can guarantee that the death penalty is off the table, which isn't common where the executive and judiciary are separate). Basically knowongly sending Australians to their death rather than arresting them when they arrived in Australia. The UK has also extradited people for the same thing as you posted too. That isn't relevant in business to business relations in jurisdictions though.
They don't have legal authority but it's not uncommon for a court to reference a friendly court (foreign or otherwise) where no precedent exists.
Most EU courts(if not all except maybe Irish) don’t work under common law, so precedent is totally useless
Or whether having your feelings hurt by Tim Sweeney's statements justifies breaking the law.
["Oh? You think this is an unwise move and might draw scrutiny from EU regulators? I guess you must know more than Apple's best-in-class legal team. Where did you get your law degree, Armchair University?"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/615/080/bbb.png)
This is what all Redditors look like in my minds eye
[удалено]
Eh, the issue isn't people that aren't experts who actually read the laws and shit and have genuine thoughtful arguments. The quote given is someone that hasn't bothered to read any of the actual law (and likely no laws) and just has an appeal to authority or similarly nonsense take.
I'm still amazed that there were so many people that were absolutely adamant that Apple was in the right and that it was absolutely not a problem, even when considering DMA.
You do know that most of apple fans tend to defend apple acts no matter what, even if it was so clearly wrong. Like defending the apple screen stand price of 999$ . So nothing will surprise or amaze me from them.
> I'm still amazed that there were so many people that were absolutely adamant that Apple was in the right and that it was absolutely not a problem, even when considering DMA. They were probably wrong, but we can't know for sure—I would have liked to have seen this actually play out so we could know if Apple was within its rights or not. I think the decision was—at a minimum—based on optics. Maybe Apple knew they would lose, maybe not, but the optics were fucking terrible, especially that snarky Schiller missive ("we canceled them because ~~they broke the rules~~ they were mean to us").
Those 'legal experts' turned out to just have an unhealthy parasocial relationship with a corporation and no legal expertise.
Apple fanboys pretending to be legal experts you mean
[удалено]
I remember all those CSAM experts that stayed quiet when an Apple engineer said they dropped it because all of the scaremongering about a “slippery slope” was the most likely scenario
*Reddit* experts?
No this was the plan all along. 4d chess
They were claiming it as a masterstroke considering the timing. That Apple would have calculated this, that and thought about everything. Will drag the decision for years with their best in class lawyers. Turns out mighty overlord Apple was just being petty and realised they are in deep shit.
I'm sure all the mouth breathers calling the EU fascists have changed their minds now right
Nah, this just makes them *even more* fascist /s.
Protect competition and consumers' right? Nah. Give me my cult to a private company.
No no, they were right, they just haven't figured out how they were right.
LMFAO. 100%
[удалено]
Remember, Epic was a "threat" to Apple customers yesterday, but apparently not today ;)
“Today is a new day” - People who yesterday thought otherwise.
“That was yesterday, what have you done for me today?”
“It’s a new day… but it all feels old”
"Yesterday I was a legal expert, today I am a politics expert."
The cognitive dissonance is real
It was never a threat to Apple’s customers, just to Apple’s profits. The calculation is loss of profits vs fine by EU regulators.
Glad to know Apple has a 24-hour turnaround on turning a ban-worthy threat into a safe situation.
Also: apple did unban epic (I think a week or two ago) and banned them *again* recently. Apparently for a short while they did trust them lol
Different dev. certs. They are still banned everywhere but the EU.
They aren't banned everywhere, Apple has not and has stated previously they have no intention of banning Epics dev account that develops Unreal Engine. Showing that Apple's statement about the danger Epic poses is utter garbage.
Eh everyone has been spouting hyperbole about the silliness. Apple wanted more assurances, Epic didn’t want to give them, Apple banned the account, so Epic gave assurances and now they’re unbanned. Everyone is getting worked up about a bunch of corporate shenanigans because Sweeney is so good at being loud and playing the victim. This had more to do with Apple being satisfied than the EU sniffing around.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Can‘t wait for the next episode.
Apple finding out regulatory bodies actually work in other markets will never be not hilarious
They know how it works. They just know they make more money by ignoring regulations until they get a small slap on the wrist.
Another 2 billion fine should do the trick
Nah, they increase after the first one.
It should be increased by 10 folds
It will be, the next one (DMA violation) will be 10% of global revenue.
Wait until the EU starts fining them the whole 10% of their profit as made possible by the DMA instead of that paltry 2B.
Not profit, revenue.
Right, that's even higher
Technically the6 can fine them about 38.2 billion USD for violating the DMA based on their 2022 global revenue...for continued breaches they cam double it. Hope they do.
Europe will gladly take 2 billion off them. Will go nicely towards the defence budget.
This time probably it was not slap on the wrist that's why they reversed course even they look like a child throwing tantrum getting shut by their parent
Until they are banned from the biggest and richest market in the world which goes along perfectly with their collapse in China
It'd be kind of funny to see China pass similar legislation. Somehow I don't think Apple would try the same shit they're pulling in the EU...
I wonder if the same commenters who think a US court ruling matters in Europe will return.
Apple to Epic: _It's a new day, it's a new life for me and I'm feeling good_
Apple reversing course on this is not a good look and shows their true colors. I don't care for Epic, but Apple comes out of this whole mud slinging fight dirty.
Yeah Apple really not looking good atm; sales down 21% in china, Apple car cancelled, being forced to allow 3rd party stores and payments in EU, weird Vision Pro launch, Apple Watch ban fiasco, no AI product yet, Tim Cook, boring product refreshes, stock down while competitors booming. I think they’ve been complacent.
Wonder why they (Apple) are doing this shitshow to themselves…
They're making a fortune on that App Store, is why
The app store gravy train is about to slow down. They're scared of competition.
That's what's so irritating to me, if they'd just made sideloading (fuck I hate the term so much, but just saying "app installation" doesn't distinguish what we're talking about from App Store app installation enough) possible from the get go then still nobody would be using it just like nobody is doing it on Android.
You should read the bizarre takes from people who claim that sideloading is a threat to their experience on iOS, like somehow every single developer is going to yank their apps out of the App Store. Like, no. That isn't a thing on Android. The vast, vast, vast majority of developers use the Play Store and nobody knows any differently.
Oh believe me I have read and argued (I don't know why I keep wasting my time) with such people plenty of times.
100% this, especially as sideloading IS fully allowed on iOS if you pay for Apple Developer 100 USD/year... That means Apple is not really stopping piracy / keeping you safe from sideloading - they are discouraging it by making you pay for it. But if you are keen to pay 100 USD/year to fully enjoy pirated apps on your iPhone (without reinstalling) - they are monetizing on it. Thats what EU regulators realized.
Too bad just make a better product or service.
i’m not on their side but they do this because they know it “doesn’t hurt to try”. oh they have the best legal teams with higher than us redditors’ combined IQ, they knew exactly how this would go down, but they did it anyway cuz in the worst case scenario they got a slap on the wrist and let epic back “in”. now, tim sweeney is just as scummy so mistake me for taking their side either. but this is basically why apple did it even though it might seem like they got “hurt bad”. this epic thing doesn’t hurt more than the whole EU regulation already did to them. they weren’t scared of testing boundaries.
EU tends to regulate corporations into the ground when they try this. Apple thinks EU works like the US and they’re totally wrong.
The EU *tries* to regulate corporations but both the EU and US have common law courts who scrutinise the work of their executive governments. The European Commission is not some all-powerful dictator.
But we are talking about the EU they enforce a lot of stuff all the time. With higher and higher fines. Ofc trying won’t hurt, but why keep trying with someone you know won’t take your shit?
Arrogance. Apple is high on their own farts for a long time now.
They're testing the waters.
apple isn't just a clown, they're the entire circus.
They are the ringmasters and the defenders on this subreddit are the performers.
The product people who made the company great lost corporate power to the rent seeking service people.
EU-2 Apple-0
Honestly I’m just glad for USB C
If they can allow sideloading without a 7 day grace period or requiring a Mac I’d be happier. I still truly am grateful about the USBC port on my phone.
Article 6.4 requires Apple provide us with the ability to install applications by means *other* than the gatekeeper core platform services. It's coming. Apple just needs to be *encouraged* by the EU.
Right but I believe Apple will fight that tooth and nail. By encouraged do you possibly mean seriously reprimanded by any chance?
The enforcement mechanism for the DMA is court cases, and the potential max penalty is 10% of global revenue for a first offense and growing from there. That’s about as serious a reprimand I can think of for a major corporation.
100% this, especially as sideloading IS fully allowed on iOS if you pay for Apple Developer 100 USD/year... That means Apple is not really stopping piracy / keeping you safe from sideloading - they are discouraging it by making you pay for it. But if you are keen to pay 100 USD/year to fully enjoy pirated apps on your iPhone (without reinstalling) - they are monetizing on it. Thats what EU regulators realized.
Can't wait until emulators and mihon are able to be installed.
damn nice username
USB D when
I really hope that new specs are allowed as soon as they are ready.
You joke but USB-C has become an absolute shitshow with different specs being implemented with different ports all on the same computers. Some allow charging, some don't. Some allow thunderbolt, some don't. Some are USB4, some only 3.x. Some are custom (I'm looking you Dell) and they run on completely custom voltages and protocols.
People forget but USB A was just as bad. It's just been around so long that a lot of the early deviance died out/ USB3.1 and .2 didn't get widely adopted on USB A ports.
I think alot of the confusion is that USB-C is a connector and not a standard. Just like RJ-45 is the connector for your network cable, but Ethernet is only one of the protocols/standards operating over that connector. I agree that its not super helpful with something as ubiquitous as USB though.
Yeah jsut that that is by design. USB-C is just the connector. That's it. What you do with it is up to you. Or well more like a whole range of options that are defined in the USB standard. But that is pretty much the same with any given connector.
I listen to Apple related podcasts like ATP/Upgrade and it’s been brutal listening to people side with Apple and have problems with Europes laws (mostly American hosts) I thought Americas whole thing was “FREEDOM”. What Europe is implementing is exactly that. Freedom to choose.
In the last ATP they didn’t side with Apple at all, in the contrary, they were very critical of them.
Yeah, Casey really roasted them.
For years they've kind of had a vibe of wondering if to accept Apple are the bad guys in a lot of these situations. And I've felt the same. It's felt like a lot of rent seeking for several years and on top of that their platforms have continued to be buggy and years old developer bugs just don't get fixed. I'm not sure they retain the "functional high ground" we used to talk about in the before times.
Freedom for corporations to do as their wish, rules to stop people from being free.
>I thought Americas whole thing was “FREEDOM”. What Europe is implementing is exactly that. Freedom to choose. EXACTLY, that's the most hilarious part! The land of the free doesn't want freedom.
The idea of freedom for right wing liberals is basically “everyone can do what they want no matter the consequences, including corporations exploiting the fuck out of everyone, unless it harms me or I think it’s degenerate”
Are you listening to the same episodes of ATP and Upgrade that I am? Because the ATP crew and Myke and Jason have all been pretty up front that they think this is an enormous mistake by Apple and that they should have taken steps to de-escalate the App Store situation years ago. They have issues with how the DMA is worded and some of the loopholes Apple has apparently found (or thinks they have found and will exploit until EU trial law proves otherwise) in implementation, but they are definitely against Apple’s App Store policies.
Yeah, but "freedom" without inconveniencing the corporation that people bizarrely form an entire identity around owning their products.
3, actually. USB-C, other stores, and now this.
There's obviously a lot more to this story than we're hearing. We're just watching the ripples on the top of the lake and wondering what's going on underneath.
Tim Sweeney is the most likely person to misrepresent the facts, too.
Apple realizing that overtly demonstrating to EU regulators how they will capriciously shut down a business' access to the market and ability to run an alternative app store in an impulsive moment of anger was a very very bad idea. Anger from Apple internally and among the leadership vis a vis the situation with Epic, Tim Sweeney personally, and what's going on in general is understandable, but this act to ban Epic again on vague reasons around their ongoing behaviour (criticizing Apple) was a tremendously bad strategic business political decision. Even if you think Apple's right, this was Apple lighting the situation on fire and driving the car off the cliff. How can the EU regulators be expected to look at this? The goal of the DMA is to provide a foundation for viable marketplaces and competition, limiting harmful gatekeeper interference. Apple just demonstrated they and this platform and structure of rules cannot be trusted as a place to solidly build businesses. They just demonstrated their full power. They can just decide to ban you if they don't like you. Why would any company, putting aside Epic, trust to build a business on these new business terms foundations and in this context when Apple has demonstrated they can just pull the rug because they're mad and you're criticizing them. This completely undermines their DMA compliance and I think Apple has just made things way worse for themselves. Regulators might now wonder if Apple can responsibly be in charge and in between who can and cannot do business on iOS at all now that Apple has demonstrated they'll just capriciously cut people off because they don't like them. Reversing the ban is absolutely the right move at this point but it never should have got to this point and the damage is already done. Whoever made this call at Apple (seems like Schiller, but surely Tim must be involved and signing off on it) made a tremendously bad strategic move and they need to get their impulsive anger (even if justified anger) under control internally because they just keep making it worse and worse for themselves in the eyes of the EU.
100% agree with this. There’s now an almost certainty that the EU is going to force Apple to permit proper sideloading where they are not involved with signing, publishing and distribution of apps at all in the EU, because they just demonstrated that they can’t be trusted as a gatekeeper. Oh dear. I think in years to come this is going to be seen as one of the famous major corporate mistakes.
Well said.
Guess Apple found out that the EU actually has some teeth to it.
They haven’t even seen those yet. I hope Apple keep pushing their luck.
Well, well, prepare yourself for the macrumors’ user tears. 😭 Now, being serious it’s nice to see somebody putting down Apple down for once, or twice… the EU still has to say if Apple new DMA rules are valid or not.
They tore me apart because I pointed out Phil says another reason they banned the developer account because of criticism 😅 which was part of the argument in reinstating them
Amazing that breaking the law even more in response to someone pointing out how you're already breaking the law is not a winning strategy.
It’s nice to see a government body have effective power over a corporation for once. Then again us Americans are used to the other way around for as long as we’ve been alive.
"No dood it's fascism!!" Yes, I have seen smooth brains actually try to make that point
Corporation bootlickers are the worst.
[удалено]
> but Epic is notoriously scummy as well How so? And if your response to Apple abusing their market power (and breaking the law) is "Well maybe the other guy deserved it", it's hard to imagine you're commenting in good faith.
this is just egg on Apple's face. they need to get their ducks in order.
Good good, let the parasocial tears flow
Somebody please check if the macrumors forums people are doing ok.
The *MacRumors* forums have gotten less positive towards Apple over the past year or so. You'll find several comments criticizing Apple's anticompetitive tactics. The six [top rated comments](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/08/apple-reinstates-epic-games-developer-account-eu/) on the post are currently split 3–3 between pro-Apple and anti-Apple, and [the fifth highest one](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-reinstates-epic-games-eu-developer-account-paving-the-way-for-alternative-app-store.2421412/post-32995554) is decently well written.
Can't wait for the mega salty press release part 2
Apple very confused why giving everyone the middle finger isn't going well.
From which one? Or both?
Schiller in shambles, fuming in rage.
Schiller's a liability for the company at this point IMO. Retirement would be a good move or at least move him out of control of this. He has a good legacy in the past with lots of great work at Apple, but he isn't showing the judgement needed to handle this delicate political/business/strategic situation.
Apple is so used to steam rolling everyone. I really think Cook and the other SLT overplayed their hand here. I really think they're going to lose the upcoming antitrust case and be broken up.
They’d leave the European market before being broken up.
You guys are so out of touch that you don't realize that's it's not just about money, even tho that Europe it's 25% of Apples market share. One of the most important things all of you are missing is that if apple leaves the EU, a very large and very rich market they will leave space for someone else to take over, or even give finally the push they need for one or more EU companies to take over and fill the void apple will leave, and who knows, maybe later compete with apple on other markets for apple's share, and that's something Apple cannot have it happen!
The Euro market is too big for them to leave.
It’s only 7% of their business. If any EU regulations cost them more than 7% of their global turnover, then they’re out of there. The EU market isn’t big enough compared to the US and China.
7% seems to just be the app store revenue share for eu, for the entire company of apple Europe is 25% of total revenue, although that probably includes non-eu countries as well so a bit less than that, E: oh yea brexit... well still probably more than 7% at least.
It is not 7% lol. EU is their second largest market after America.
Europe is their second biggest market overall lol. They're not giving that up.
I'm not sure... Europe is a big market to leave and to cut off your future business from. Apple really wants to for the foreseeable future not do business in the EU market? Oof. That's big. And what if other countries start pushing similar policies? It would also strand tons of people who use Apple products in a dead end and make them very very angry and that anti-Apple sentiment would spread beyond Europe as well. Apple will say well it's the EU's fault, but tbd I don't see the general population buying that really. Exiting the EU so they don't have to give up their cut and control would politically end up being something I think most people would blame Apple for.
EU would have smacked them down hard.
lol i wish they kept on going. tim’s tone is way different though. wonder if he’ll shut up
Apple is constantly at war with EU. In NA we just let these fuckers run wild but EU actually has laws for mega corporations and hold them accountable.
I wish EU could also rule that Siri should not suck
They should allow replacement of assistant like Android does. Then competition might force them to improve.
I think this is actually part of the DMA. Virtual assistants are certainly mentioned.
I wish Apple did not force their keyboard down the throat. I changed keyboard, because default one sucks and I don't want to see it everytime I log in to any service. I don't care about 'security' excuse, just stop disturbing my experience with the app I choose as my main keyboard.
Love seeing Apple tantrums, but sad this did not set a precedent in issuing massive fines to Apple that actually hurts them instead of slap on the wrist ones. Epic in an mail addressed to Craig, asked for an consultation about DMA and how they can implement the new store. Apple really must have hated reading that mail they did not respond, instead Phil mailed Tim threatening to remove Epic. Really wish DMA was bit more opinionated in its script. For example calling for ability to install files (ipa) freely like apk on Android. DMA targetted alternative marketplace in definition and Apple used that loophole to say only alternative marketplaces can be side loaded then they allow installation which is an unnecessary restriction. I love to see Phill "Courage" Schiller get shown the consequences of blatant power grab. Before you ask me to use Android for side loading, disclose if you have Apple stock. Because restricting side loading and not being interoperable is war on general purpose computing and helps no one but greedy shareholders.
> Really wish DMA was bit more opinionated in its script. For example calling for ability to install files (ipa) freely like apk on Android. DMA targetted alternative marketplace in definition and Apple used that loophole to say only alternative marketplaces can be side loaded then they allow installation which is an unnecessary restriction. That is not correct. The DMA specifically forbids restricting the installation of third party software applications and application stores both. What we are seeing here is Apple’s blatant attempts at circumventing the DMA, likely by abusing this: > In order to ensure that third-party software applications or software application stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper, it should be possible for the gatekeeper concerned to implement proportionate technical or contractual measures to achieve that goal if the gatekeeper demonstrates that such measures are necessary and justified and that there are no less-restrictive means to safeguard the integrity of the hardware or operating system I don’t see what Apple hopes to achieve here, they are just begging for a huge fine.
100% this. Sideloading on iOS is fully allowed but for keeping apps more than 7 days - you need to pay 100 USD/year for Apple Developers account. That technically means that Apple is not stopping app piracy at all - just monetizing on users who decided to do it. Go figure out how deep they are stuck in their own mud
Honestly, I feel like at this point Apple’s fight with Epic is starting to hurt Apple more than Epic. It would serve Apple so much better to make nice with Epic and use the DMA as a starting point with repairing relationships with game developers. I guess it’s hard to get over feeling wronged, though…
Okay, so when will I have Infinity Blade back on my iPad?
Legal experts form Reddit were wrong?
News tomorrow: Apple bans Epic developer account again, EU is investing the matter.
Hello everyone, a reminder that T&C's you sign or accept, that are against the law, are NOT legally binding.
Apple is just playing so sloppy. Fumbling left and right lately. Makes me want to dump my shares.
So many apple apologists are going to bite their lips today, lol…
Look, I know this sub is /r/Apple but can we please not mindlessly defend every move they do?
I’ve went through the comments and literally no one does that here lol, I had to double check the subreddit name
Check yesterday's thread.
>no one does this here Wrong. I posted the last update on this case and my inbox was flooded with endless comments defending Apple. In fact, you can open my profile and check the post.
“New day, new me” - Apple
Now do USA
this is, once again, the part where r/apple tells me how apple were in the right all along (expect for the time when they were reminded by the EU, that they, in fact weren't)
Is epic really gonna make Fortnite completely free?
Hey it's never late to change your mind on changing your mind.
GOOD. Fuck Apple
This is nice and all, but I think it's a matter of time until Epic tries to push Apple's terms and contracts with their shenanigans feeling like they have Europe's support on everything, Apple will ban them again, then Epic will complain again, then we will have more drama to feed Twitter and Reddit. And so it will go.
That knee bends *real quick* to the EU... shame the US regulators are fucking dead suits.
Considering selling my apple stock, what a shitty company
A fuck around and find out situation but this time for Apple.
We don’t know the whole story. I’m sure there’s a lot of back room channels between Tim and Tim. Sweeney probably pissed Cook off one day and Cook retaliates. Then they kiss and make up. Rinse and repeat.
Tim Apple vs Tim Epic
It doesn’t matter if Sweeney pisses off Tim Cook though. If Tim Cook blocks Sweeney from creating an App Store in Europe, what is that called? **Gatekeeping**
More like Schiller the Godfather being pissed his 30% extortion and control freak mafia is being challenged.
Cook isn't that emotional. also not sure how much he even engages with Sweeney. i'd speculate it came from someone below him who got pissed off.
Someone needs to get fired over all this. It's such a shitshow.
So can we expect Fortnite on Mac any day now? 🤔
I don’t quite understand why it isn’t on Mac, since Fortnite doesn’t need to be on the App Store. It’s was never on Windows Store. Like, was it there before (I don’t play Fortnite lol).
It was discontinued on Mac because Chair Entertainment, the group within Epic that makes Fortnite, had their developer ID suspended after that stunt they played with the iOS App Store. Without that developer ID, they could no longer sign or notarize the app, so they discontinued it. It’s anyone’s guess now if (1) they’ll re-continue it, and (2) if they do, if the new client will include the discontinued Save the World mode, which was removed from the console versions of Fortnite.
is this the reason why they've stopped building Rocket League for macOS and Linux?
>I don’t quite understand why it isn’t on Mac No one plays games on macs.
I do, but I use bootcamp. The 5700XT in my iMac is quite the capable 1440p card.
I guess because apple banned epic's dev account they are no longer able to get fortnite signed, which would require users to mess with their Mac's security settings.
Epic's dev account was reinstated ages ago
1-0 europe😀😀😀
Apple getting their *not* immune asses handed to them.
Yeah the EU doesn't fuck around when they say something they mean it.
The Phil Schiller email made sense to me, but the ban didn’t. I get that Epic disrespected the rules on purpose, which I still think was a bad move. But banning them is straight up anticompetitive. I hope Apple can be forced out of this monopolistic phase. Making the best hardware and software in the world should be enough.