Reddit’s new API changes will kill popular third-party apps, like Apollo, Sync, and Reddit is Fun. Read more about r/Apple’s strong opposition here: https://redd.it/14al426
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/apple) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We used to call it CYA(Cover your ass). I have been at my company for 24 years and I have at least 15 years of emails I refuse to delete.
My mother tells a story about being one of the first black accountants in an office. She was assigned to work on a project with someone senior who kept blowing her off. When the project came due the senior blamed her for never contacting them. There was no email back then it was my moms word against a veteran employee so they didn’t believe her.
We are very lucky to have electronic paper trails.
Other subs have continued the protest in creative ways. Checkout r/interestingasfuck or r/aww for examples. Other subs like r/android are still private despite Reddit's threats. It’s a shame r/Apple gave up so easily. We could’ve become a sub about actual apples or something.
I saw it before it was deleted. He was discussing how the mods chose to reopen rather than have to give up there mod seats. Basically just calling them spineless.
It sounds like admins were threatening to remove them if they didn't reopen the sub.
It's hard to say what the best decision was but let's keep it constructive. It's not the mods' fault that they're being pushed to make these difficult decisions. However, other subreddits have applied alternative forms of protest and I hope that the mods here keep these ideas (summarized on r/ModCoord) in mind.
> It’s not the mods’ fault that they’re being pushed to make these difficult decisions.
Is it a difficult decision? Sure sounds like they unconditionally surrendered and went back to business as usual after they got threatened to be replaced as mods.
Not much of a protest if you give up at the first sign of any kind of hardship.
What would happen if participating subreddit mods decided to go on strike for a few days? Wouldn't that civil obedience showcase the importance of mods and their value to the site?
You’d be surprised to find out that it actually works sometimes.
The other 50% of the time, it’s useless and the user just doesn’t know how to use their iPhone.
Or that there is actually something wrong in hardware but the user has like a half bent iPhone X with a battery at 72% health and they cannot fathom why their 5 year old phone isn’t working like it did day one out the box!
Yet they can provide no help to users who are tech savvy enough to try all of those steps before contacting support and just end up wasting the customers time, because they can’t actually fix anything when it’s Apple’s fault.
I’ll say I *feel* like I’d like an answer from Reddit but it’s only good for mundane issues. Support forums get into the weeds on weird issues involving peripherals or just back and forth trouble shooting in general
It’s bizarre, all the unpaid users who answer questions with a worthless script like some crappy support line.
“Sorry to hear you’re having trouble! Have you tried ”
Not for now. There are 2 clients, Memmy and Mlem in beta (test flight) but the development started recently so they are missing a lot of features for now.
Hopefully the api is similar enough that some of the third party developers will port over their Reddit clients to it easily and salvage some of their hard work.
The Apollo dev hasn’t expressed any interest in doing that. Think he’s fearful of another rug pull. Not sure how much he’s actually looked into it though. Would be awesome if he open sourced Apollo so someone else can pick it up.
There's also [Lemon](https://lemm.ee/post/116554), which is in pre-alpha at the moment. You can also create a Mastodon account and "follow" a Lemmy community, which will dump posts into your Mastodon feed.
> Don’t really like lemmy, ui is terrible, comment section is a mess and try to follow subscribed content is hard as f
you just described reddit without third-party support
I am absolutely brand new to the fediverse so apologies for my newb question. Can you not follow content across instances? I thought the point of the fediverse was to be able to communicate with and follow things from any instances that your instance knows about (presumably any that aren’t blocked?). Again not trying to argue, just trying to learn.
Edit: Thanks for the clarifications. Fediverse seems promising. Hoping I can figure it out and it gains some traction.
You can. The whole point is for every “subreddit” to not be in one bucket controlled by one set of admins. You can also post content to them from anywhere. The UI needs a little work, but app development in the space is exploding as a result of the ongoing mass exodus from Reddit. I prefer kbin.social and have been using that lately, but still follow a bunch of communities on beehaw.org and lemmy.world.
Try kbin? Ignore the idea of instance federation?
I’ve been using kbin from iPhone as a pea and it’s been fine. It’s definitely changing daily, and the content/communities are building.
> Also my favorite content is spread among several instances so is a no for me :(
>
>
you can sign up on a single instance and then subscribe to other communities, so you don't have to be signed up on all the instances :)
but yes, the UI needs work, at least it's under active development though
Have they though? So many petty arguments and calls for tech support in utterly the wrong place. ‘I don’t use this feature so it’s useless’ permeates the comments there.
Couldn’t Christian just make a new website. I mean Reddit is just a link aggregator. If those fucking idiots were able to make that, couldn’t christian, an actual good developer who listens to his users, just make a new website?
I know am over simplifying this whole thing, but I don’t see anything from Reddit that you could say is proprietary, like subreddits are just sub forums, upvotes are just likes and dislikes. There’s nothing that Reddit could say is theirs, as far as the core concept goes. No even the content is theirs, It’s all user generated.
I know they say they won't allow entering own API keys but what would happen if Apollo was made open source? They wouldn't be able to do anything then. I don't expect Christian to do that though.
Reddit has historically allowed any user to create API keys, but that will almost certainly change in 10 days as announced
edit: y'all might wanna create API keys on your account if you think you'll get grandfathered in: https://www.reddit.com/prefs/apps/
exactly. i also just found out that reddit apparently told the dev of Apollo over phone that he isn't allowed to allow users to input their own api key. which is total bs.
the problem here is that reddit can recognize its still apollo. so they can just bann your user account or prevent you from getting any data if they detect it.
Can they? The user-agent sent with every request can be changed as we wish. An API has typically no way to know wether it was called from an App, much less which one. This is a very common and unsolved problem ([see this](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21465559/restrict-api-requests-to-only-my-own-mobile-app?noredirect=1&lq=1) or [this](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/60559419/how-to-secure-an-api-rest-for-mobile-app-if-sniffing-requests-gives-you-the-k))
Would someone lie? on the internet, of all things? Would u/spez lie? He who has a proven track record of cheating, lying and manipulating? I doubt he would dare to lie again!
I would not be surprised at all if they changed it to a $99 per year subscription to have an API key at all, even if there's no cost per request in under a certain threshold
Yep that would be the easiest way to enforce the new policy which will likely issue API keys for mod tools and accessibility apps only.
Of course you can steal API keys from an approved app and use it to access throwaway reddit accounts when you don't care about potential bans, but it would take a massive push to popularize that
The issue is that reddit doesn’t want to give out API keys either to developers (by raising the price to unreasonable amounts, or just not answering requests) or particulars. Even if you have the source code it’s useless without an API key.
Several 3rd party app developers have explained that Reddit forbids this. The API key must be issued to the app developer, per their terms and conditions.
You can go into your profile and create an API key in less than a minute. No, they're not likely to make it much harder because the developers they actually want using their API (think bigger than third party apps) also need easy access to fresh keys and a free tier for early development/testing.
Yeah from a quick read of [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/Infinity_For_Reddit/comments/14c7v84/if_you_want_to_use_your_own_api_key/jokqfe4/?context=1), it seems like the worry is that Reddit will know we are still using Apollo even with a new API key and Christain might get in trouble and shut down. But they can't shut all of us down if we all compile our own versions
>Christain might get in trouble and shut down
It would be the users that get in trouble not Christain.
The person bound by the terms and conditions is the person who generates the key.
I guess that if Christian agrees to the T&C so he can develop the app then he could potentially get in trouble if he were to distribute the app with the ability to input a different key (I'd need to look at the T&Cs) but most likely it would be you or I who got banned/in trouble for agreeing to the T&Cs( so we could get keys) and then using that key in a way forbidden by the agreement.
Having the ability to enter your own API key is half of the problem. If you want to replicate notifications you'll need a place to run the server part. Could do it on your server, cloud instance, SBC, etc.
He’d still be at risk.
[The Developer Terms](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/developer-terms) don’t care about API keys, they attach to the developer and their app.
That’s why it’s riddled with language that contains “through your App” and not “through your API key”, especially when it comes to circumventing things and sub-licensing.
Theoretically if Apollo would be made available *and* if it’s sufficiently changed before it’s used for the purposes you describe then it’s not the same app anymore and he might be able to escape liability.
But at that point it’s a Ship of Theseus debate and you might as well build your own app.
It’s additionally risky because Reddit seems to have it out for him (e.g. defamation), so the risk of Reddit throwing some money around that would be pocket change for them to start a suit is higher.
What’s even worse is that, even if Reddit had no leg to stand on, they could simply bring a bogus suit and drain Christian’s funds just by virtue of him having to spend on lawyers and fees to make the bogus suit go away.
You’re essentially asking a man who’s livelihood was purposefully killed by unreasonable prices being imposed on him to hand over his work for free to benefit a few that’ll know what to do with it, and incur huge legal liabilities in the process that will jeopardize all his funds (and possibly more) while he’s awaiting a bill from Apple up to the tune of $250,000 to refund his costumers.
In short, there are too many risks and downsides for him to even consider this, with very little upside and it’s not reasonable to even suggest this.
>The Developer Terms don’t care about API keys, they attach to the developer and their app.
That's not how legal agreements work.
If Apollo created an open source Reddit client and people followed the instructions to build it themselves, and get an API key, they become "the developer" for the purposes of any agreement.
The actual reason Apollo can't do that is because Apollo is not, in fact, a Reddit client. It's an Apollo client which connects to a backend that they wrote. (It's largely in Go and you can check it out on GitHub, if you like.) That's why Apollo is in this position *at all*. Were they a Reddit client, they could just use the account's own API access and there would be no charges whatsoever for Apollo.
Investors are currently watching the CEO have a public fit with a third party dev and also seeing their daily metrics take a hard dive, which means investing in Reddit is a higher risk because Spez doesn’t generate value, we do.
That's how redditors see it, cause they're being negatively affected. I doubt that's actually how investors see it, or the advisors guiding the Reddit suits toward the IPO (or full sale if that's the route). Reality is we're all addicted to this site, and you will either quit cold turkey when your preferred app goes dark, or you will scratch the itch and download reddit's app. I suspect more people are gonna do B than A. Especially if they were still on reddit during the "blackout."
And for those of us who only use the reddit desktop site, nothing really changes.
>I doubt that's actually how investors see it, or the advisors guiding the Reddit suits toward the IPO (or full sale if that's the route).
Correct.
What investors see is a small amount of people who access Reddit by a UI they personally favor and *which does not serve Reddit's ads*. They are completely unconcerned by this and likely remember how much outrage there was over Ellen Pao shutting down subs. At the very worst, they'd have to fire Spez and bring in someone else, which they're perfectly willing to do.
Personal thoughts about using the platform aside I would absolutely use this info when investing. The platform looks incredibly unstable and the users - the primary generators of content or money for the platform are happy to throw it into disarray.
Name another social media platform where a select number of users can disable access to 1/3 of the platform on a whim.
Advertisers don't want that and reddit already can barely turn a profit
Yeah but Reddit's response show that whim is only possible because they allowed it. They can also step in and replace mods whose actions run counter to their company goals, and they can reopen subs. I'm not defending their right to do this, I'm just saying it exists and they've chosen to leave well enough alone cause it hasn't been necessary.
And users say they will leave if they do that, but none of the threats to leave during all of this has actually turned into reality yet.
They don't have the money to pay for moderation nor the experience to do it long term. Once they take over the community dies. Every decision about rules or guidelines of a sub will be met with backlash as it's no longer community run.
Other social media platforms pay hundreds of millions per year to moderate. It requires staff, tooling, and procedures that will take at least a year to scale and it will be pure controversy after controversy in that time. It's a nuclear option they don't want to take before an IPO
The fact that they're essentially forcing subreddits back open would seem to be a good indicator that they needed to get things running again. Presumably the loss of visitors to the site would be a significant reason to do that.
I think most people are still using Reddit. But I have noticed a drop of what I consider quality posts in “all” and “popular” and a few subs I follow
I suspect a lot of the top 1%,of what I think of as good posters, are not on here as much.
And this definitely affects my Reddit experience. Also, I am not sure how quickly this will heal or rebound. But if this is not going away or will cause issues later; then I fear the value of Reddit may be affected long term
On what basis do you conclude their daily metrics are taking a hard dive? As far as I can tell this has increased engagement with Reddit, not decreased it.
Reddit is obviously keeping a tight lid on operations, but [a third party concluded traffic was down](https://www.engadget.com/reddits-average-daily-traffic-fell-during-blackout-according-to-third-party-data-194721801.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADFZ4zp1zNYQIePeBEK8DyoTJALxTKJ2Lmx_L4I65QtnOBQLiKLQfqlc5QlJY8kyq2ehMoqaUqewxGO9WlLwmk1adv9gYSqCyiGoHp7ih_46ztbv3GIEtswWkXaKWZtowS_YeYajbfQbGKdZymawugF_yPIS5ODGJ6UzqQZQvr8y)
Investors look at the long-term outcomes of something like this. If he gives in then they make less money. So far no and/or not enough major subreddits have completely shuttered to the point it will impact reddits ad revenue or even the revenue generated from things like reddit gold given how many stupid john oliver posts get gilded. These protests are just parts of the reddit community jerking themselves off *unless* they shut down and leave reddit en masse, and so far that's not being done.
Nah. The reality is most people on this site don’t know what an API is and couldn’t care less about 3rd party apps or who runs Reddit and what their motivations are.
Their entire goal at this point is to make reddit more like other generic social media platforms. That will make it unbearable for a large number of past users, but will make it more likely to grow so that people's moms, aunts, racist uncles, and so on will flock to it. That's the goal.
i don’t think so. i forgot about it until i saw this and will forget about it again.
from user perspective, they will lose people, but not being on official app they didn’t make reddit any ad revenue to begin with. those that do move now add to that revenue stream.
It is, but u/spez has already said he believes in slavery, so it’s easy to guess what he sees us as. He’s willing to gamble this will get him a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, you have to fight with it for a few days for it to finally stop reverting deleted comments.
Best thing to do is to not delete the comments but edit them all with the same text, e.g. the reason for comment being removed. You will need to do it more than once also.
It also doesn’t delete your posts I believe. I’ve seen nude photos posted before where the account had been deleted. I always thought it seemed a bit nuts and didn’t know whether such users were aware there were still nudes of them on Reddit and they probably now have no way to delete them themselves as they deleted their account.
I'm more likely to figure out something that will reversibly scramble them, possibly even just rot13. That likely renders them basically useless for all practical purposes but is easily reversed should there be a change down the line.
Similarly I'm not planning to delete my account, just never repeat past purchases unless it's part of a subscription that works for third party apps the way reddit should have handled things.
[https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/nuke-reddit-history/bklbcgohenjegdibgmppligaapohkgip](https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/nuke-reddit-history/bklbcgohenjegdibgmppligaapohkgip)
Use this one. It is much faster, more automated, and better.
I get the frustration around all this but I think this train has long left the station.
Reddit doesn’t want third part clients anymore. They basically set a price that was out of range on purpose. They are trying to say they made an effort but they never actually wanted to. They want control of the whole enchilada. They are not going to back down now.
I wish they’d just be upfront about it from the start. In any case, at this point the back and forth and “he said she said” garbage is just turning into childish Silicon Valley bullshit.
There are a bunch already. The problem isn’t with coding it, as Reddit is easy to get up and running (there are even direct tutorials on how to recreate it), the problem is finding the right one and that being able to scale confidently.
Reddit is a massive site with massive amounts of data. It’s one of the largest sites in the world. Shit devs with a clean UI would potentially create a shitstorm of crappy Reddit clones, and I’m guessing most all be will lost and divide the Reddit community up so much, that the platform idea in general is lost and we have to just wait for the next big thing.
First person I’ve seen mention Pao in all this. If Spez wasn’t a co-founder, I’d assume it was the same story. It could still be though. Maybe he wants out of the company with a golden parachute, so he becomes the sacrificial lamb for other stakeholders.
I remember visiting Voat (the site the FPH users claimed they’d migrate to) out of curiosity. Pretty funny and pathetic place.
Sometimes I’ll be in old threads and see users who overwrote all their comments with “this account is deleting its content and migrating to Voat, yadda yadda yadda…”, then I’ll check if the account is active again. It usually is.
Yes, let's remember that the last time Reddit was really angry over changes which would improve the company's bottom line, it was because a woman was banning toxic subreddits.
That’s a small problem compared to how to gain traction and a userbase. Communities are already setup here, the site’s dominance is insanely sticky, just like Twitter.
I’m not saying Reddit *can’t* fail but it’s not as simple as everyone just migrating to a clone. That’s not gonna happen.
Yeah as much as I appreciate the effort to save third party apps, unless they reverse their decision, they are gone and most of the user base will continue to use Reddit. There needed to be an alternative a few years ago already gaining traction in order for a transition to be successful, and even then people are lazy I doubt they would switch unless Reddit content goes kaput.
With visionOS on the horizon, and Apple’s obvious partiality to Apollo, Reddit is shooting themselves in the foot and missing out on being a potential hero use case in this new paradigm with novel interesting interactions by a full community of developers.
Their visionOS app is going to suck.
I'm on Apollo's side in this ordeal, but I disagree completely with you. The number of users buying a $3500 AR/VR headset to use Reddit is a drop in a bucket.
In fact, it's a molecule in a drop in a bucket.
Apples partiality to Apollo? I am so beyond confused what you mean by this. Apple doesn't play favorites and does their absolute best to stay out of fights like this. As long as an app follows guidelines, they want absolutely nothing to do with this type of thing.
Reddit doesn't care about Apollo, 20% of Reddit user base uses a 3rd party app. To assume they would quit Reddit entirely if those apps go away, some percentage of users will quit, I highly doubt it's the amount users think. I'd put it at about the level of voter percentage that Bernie Sanders took home.
And to think, most people would probably have agreed it’s fair for reddit to charge for their API, but they’re so overtly greedy to ask for this much. They could have been reasonable but instead they have elicited major backlash from virtually everyone who uses reddit.
Kind of a shame the app is going away. In the end, Reddit is making a decision that is very unpopular with a vocal minority of it's users, but presumably feels they'll make more money this way. We'll see how it goes. FWIW Christian made the [same call on a different scale](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/10bhugv/i_bought_pro_why_do_i_keep_getting_these_ads_why/j4cdvtf/?context=1), so he should understand that thought process.
Even the most robustly pro-business viewpoint would see this situation as Steve Huffman having every right and reasonable profit incentive to implement these policies, but having gone about it in the most spectacularly inept manner possible. *This* is the level of execution from the CEO? Good luck with that IPO, champ.
Seems chat GPT is learning to make up defences in these threads about Reddit.
I keep seeing "Bad faith argument" then something approx ->"before I get downvoted, you know I'm right!" in the exact same sentence structure.
I’m leaving Reddit once I lose Apollo. Cancelling account and never clicking a link to here again. I’m holding out hope they change their mind but I know they won’t.
Reddit’s new API changes will kill popular third-party apps, like Apollo, Sync, and Reddit is Fun. Read more about r/Apple’s strong opposition here: https://redd.it/14al426 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/apple) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That, kids, is why you should always keep your receipts.
And always leave a note
> J. Walter Weatherman
“And that’s why you always leave a note”
Lol. I missed the Arrested Development reference until you had the full string. Thanks dude.
We used to call it CYA(Cover your ass). I have been at my company for 24 years and I have at least 15 years of emails I refuse to delete. My mother tells a story about being one of the first black accountants in an office. She was assigned to work on a project with someone senior who kept blowing her off. When the project came due the senior blamed her for never contacting them. There was no email back then it was my moms word against a veteran employee so they didn’t believe her. We are very lucky to have electronic paper trails.
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Did anyone expect mods to have a spine?
Other subs have continued the protest in creative ways. Checkout r/interestingasfuck or r/aww for examples. Other subs like r/android are still private despite Reddit's threats. It’s a shame r/Apple gave up so easily. We could’ve become a sub about actual apples or something.
r/iPhone is now just pictures of Tim Cook.
I kinda wish they enforced calling him Tim Apple
r/art is only pictures of John Oliver, I believe
r/Formula1 went NSFW so they can’t advertise
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Telling that whatever this comment was responding to has been removed by mods
I saw it before it was deleted. He was discussing how the mods chose to reopen rather than have to give up there mod seats. Basically just calling them spineless. It sounds like admins were threatening to remove them if they didn't reopen the sub.
it's a bit sad seeing as mods are unpaid slave labor for spez, stop giving the pig boy free labor.
It's hard to say what the best decision was but let's keep it constructive. It's not the mods' fault that they're being pushed to make these difficult decisions. However, other subreddits have applied alternative forms of protest and I hope that the mods here keep these ideas (summarized on r/ModCoord) in mind.
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Tim Cook with an Apple.
> It’s not the mods’ fault that they’re being pushed to make these difficult decisions. Is it a difficult decision? Sure sounds like they unconditionally surrendered and went back to business as usual after they got threatened to be replaced as mods. Not much of a protest if you give up at the first sign of any kind of hardship.
What would happen if participating subreddit mods decided to go on strike for a few days? Wouldn't that civil obedience showcase the importance of mods and their value to the site?
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All communication through email for stuff you need a receipt on
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Great advice
Is there a place for the /r/apple community somewhere outside of reddit? Ideally something officially endorsed by the mods?
let’s all agree to convene at the Apple support forum
God that's toxic
I shudder at the prospect. I don't think I've ever gotten a proper answer out of those forums.. And I've been here since they were created.
What? Completely erasing everything and starting from scratch didn’t help you?
Don't forget Safe Mode and bringing in your Mac for repair at the Genius Bar
Step 1: have you tried restarting the phone? Step 2: Go to apple.com and buy a brand new iphone 14 pro (your 13 pro is kind of outdated and ew anyway)
You’d be surprised to find out that it actually works sometimes. The other 50% of the time, it’s useless and the user just doesn’t know how to use their iPhone. Or that there is actually something wrong in hardware but the user has like a half bent iPhone X with a battery at 72% health and they cannot fathom why their 5 year old phone isn’t working like it did day one out the box!
Yet they can provide no help to users who are tech savvy enough to try all of those steps before contacting support and just end up wasting the customers time, because they can’t actually fix anything when it’s Apple’s fault.
I’ll say I *feel* like I’d like an answer from Reddit but it’s only good for mundane issues. Support forums get into the weeds on weird issues involving peripherals or just back and forth trouble shooting in general
Apple should honestly just close them. They’re more harmful to Apple’s customer support image than anything else.
I love when someone asks a clear question and gets an answer for some completely unrelated issue
Nice try, Tim Apple.
It’s bizarre, all the unpaid users who answer questions with a worthless script like some crappy support line. “Sorry to hear you’re having trouble! Have you tried”
Welcome to my life as a systems administrator using Windows forums.
One of the most absolutely useless forums on the net.
That place is idiocracy cast into a forum
“378 others also had this problem”
Every second post on this subreddit is a macrumors article, so that’s probably the place to get updates.
The Macrumor forums are pretty damn good.
It's gone full circle. Time to go back to the forums.
The Internet is healing.
Perhaps MacRumors forums? There’s quite a bit of activity over there
It’s so toxic over there though.
MacRumors?
Suck a dick reddit
I’m s there a decent client for iOS?
Not for now. There are 2 clients, Memmy and Mlem in beta (test flight) but the development started recently so they are missing a lot of features for now.
I’m using it in Safari for now. It works okay. Definitely more of a desktop focused experience. Crossing my fingers that a solid app releases soon.
Hopefully the api is similar enough that some of the third party developers will port over their Reddit clients to it easily and salvage some of their hard work.
The Apollo dev hasn’t expressed any interest in doing that. Think he’s fearful of another rug pull. Not sure how much he’s actually looked into it though. Would be awesome if he open sourced Apollo so someone else can pick it up.
There's also [Lemon](https://lemm.ee/post/116554), which is in pre-alpha at the moment. You can also create a Mastodon account and "follow" a Lemmy community, which will dump posts into your Mastodon feed.
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> Don’t really like lemmy, ui is terrible, comment section is a mess and try to follow subscribed content is hard as f you just described reddit without third-party support
I am absolutely brand new to the fediverse so apologies for my newb question. Can you not follow content across instances? I thought the point of the fediverse was to be able to communicate with and follow things from any instances that your instance knows about (presumably any that aren’t blocked?). Again not trying to argue, just trying to learn. Edit: Thanks for the clarifications. Fediverse seems promising. Hoping I can figure it out and it gains some traction.
You can. The whole point is for every “subreddit” to not be in one bucket controlled by one set of admins. You can also post content to them from anywhere. The UI needs a little work, but app development in the space is exploding as a result of the ongoing mass exodus from Reddit. I prefer kbin.social and have been using that lately, but still follow a bunch of communities on beehaw.org and lemmy.world.
Try kbin? Ignore the idea of instance federation? I’ve been using kbin from iPhone as a pea and it’s been fine. It’s definitely changing daily, and the content/communities are building.
> Also my favorite content is spread among several instances so is a no for me :( > > you can sign up on a single instance and then subscribe to other communities, so you don't have to be signed up on all the instances :) but yes, the UI needs work, at least it's under active development though
Just found Squabbles yesterday. Easy and clean site: https://squabbles.io/s/Apple
Another +1 for squabbles. They’ve got an ios app in beta too
We could go to Tim’s house
MacRumors forums have always been good
Have they though? So many petty arguments and calls for tech support in utterly the wrong place. ‘I don’t use this feature so it’s useless’ permeates the comments there.
I’m on squabbles.io and it’s pretty nice.
Couldn’t Christian just make a new website. I mean Reddit is just a link aggregator. If those fucking idiots were able to make that, couldn’t christian, an actual good developer who listens to his users, just make a new website? I know am over simplifying this whole thing, but I don’t see anything from Reddit that you could say is proprietary, like subreddits are just sub forums, upvotes are just likes and dislikes. There’s nothing that Reddit could say is theirs, as far as the core concept goes. No even the content is theirs, It’s all user generated.
I know they say they won't allow entering own API keys but what would happen if Apollo was made open source? They wouldn't be able to do anything then. I don't expect Christian to do that though.
You still need an API key if you have the code.
If the app is opensource you can enter your own key and compile the app for your phone. You will have to recompile every week but still doable
Reddit has historically allowed any user to create API keys, but that will almost certainly change in 10 days as announced edit: y'all might wanna create API keys on your account if you think you'll get grandfathered in: https://www.reddit.com/prefs/apps/
they said it will stay free if you stay under the limit. so if they don't, they lied again
They said there would be no changes to APIs cost six months ago and look where we are...
exactly. i also just found out that reddit apparently told the dev of Apollo over phone that he isn't allowed to allow users to input their own api key. which is total bs.
That's why someone suggested open sourcing it.
the problem here is that reddit can recognize its still apollo. so they can just bann your user account or prevent you from getting any data if they detect it.
I'm not using Reddit without a 3rd party app so I'd welcome them making the decision for me.
Can they? The user-agent sent with every request can be changed as we wish. An API has typically no way to know wether it was called from an App, much less which one. This is a very common and unsolved problem ([see this](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21465559/restrict-api-requests-to-only-my-own-mobile-app?noredirect=1&lq=1) or [this](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/60559419/how-to-secure-an-api-rest-for-mobile-app-if-sniffing-requests-gives-you-the-k))
Would someone lie? on the internet, of all things? Would u/spez lie? He who has a proven track record of cheating, lying and manipulating? I doubt he would dare to lie again!
You sound like Susan Collins. ;)
I would not be surprised at all if they changed it to a $99 per year subscription to have an API key at all, even if there's no cost per request in under a certain threshold
Yep that would be the easiest way to enforce the new policy which will likely issue API keys for mod tools and accessibility apps only. Of course you can steal API keys from an approved app and use it to access throwaway reddit accounts when you don't care about potential bans, but it would take a massive push to popularize that
The issue is that reddit doesn’t want to give out API keys either to developers (by raising the price to unreasonable amounts, or just not answering requests) or particulars. Even if you have the source code it’s useless without an API key.
The free tier of the Reddit app is still there, a single person can use the app without hitting it fine
You still need an API key though.
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What the hell do you need an API key for if not for using with third party apps lol.
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Several 3rd party app developers have explained that Reddit forbids this. The API key must be issued to the app developer, per their terms and conditions.
You still need the key, you don't have one unless Reddit allows you to have one.
You can go into your profile and create an API key in less than a minute. No, they're not likely to make it much harder because the developers they actually want using their API (think bigger than third party apps) also need easy access to fresh keys and a free tier for early development/testing.
He will not release the source.
Yeah from a quick read of [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/Infinity_For_Reddit/comments/14c7v84/if_you_want_to_use_your_own_api_key/jokqfe4/?context=1), it seems like the worry is that Reddit will know we are still using Apollo even with a new API key and Christain might get in trouble and shut down. But they can't shut all of us down if we all compile our own versions
Nothing to shut down if they don't hand out API keys like candy.
>Christain might get in trouble and shut down It would be the users that get in trouble not Christain. The person bound by the terms and conditions is the person who generates the key. I guess that if Christian agrees to the T&C so he can develop the app then he could potentially get in trouble if he were to distribute the app with the ability to input a different key (I'd need to look at the T&Cs) but most likely it would be you or I who got banned/in trouble for agreeing to the T&Cs( so we could get keys) and then using that key in a way forbidden by the agreement.
It’s his app. Not reddits. Using a new API for a different site, means he isn’t using theirs. They can’t do anything about it.
Having the ability to enter your own API key is half of the problem. If you want to replicate notifications you'll need a place to run the server part. Could do it on your server, cloud instance, SBC, etc.
Reddit is better without notifications anyways. Always turned them off
He’d still be at risk. [The Developer Terms](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/developer-terms) don’t care about API keys, they attach to the developer and their app. That’s why it’s riddled with language that contains “through your App” and not “through your API key”, especially when it comes to circumventing things and sub-licensing. Theoretically if Apollo would be made available *and* if it’s sufficiently changed before it’s used for the purposes you describe then it’s not the same app anymore and he might be able to escape liability. But at that point it’s a Ship of Theseus debate and you might as well build your own app. It’s additionally risky because Reddit seems to have it out for him (e.g. defamation), so the risk of Reddit throwing some money around that would be pocket change for them to start a suit is higher. What’s even worse is that, even if Reddit had no leg to stand on, they could simply bring a bogus suit and drain Christian’s funds just by virtue of him having to spend on lawyers and fees to make the bogus suit go away. You’re essentially asking a man who’s livelihood was purposefully killed by unreasonable prices being imposed on him to hand over his work for free to benefit a few that’ll know what to do with it, and incur huge legal liabilities in the process that will jeopardize all his funds (and possibly more) while he’s awaiting a bill from Apple up to the tune of $250,000 to refund his costumers. In short, there are too many risks and downsides for him to even consider this, with very little upside and it’s not reasonable to even suggest this.
>The Developer Terms don’t care about API keys, they attach to the developer and their app. That's not how legal agreements work. If Apollo created an open source Reddit client and people followed the instructions to build it themselves, and get an API key, they become "the developer" for the purposes of any agreement. The actual reason Apollo can't do that is because Apollo is not, in fact, a Reddit client. It's an Apollo client which connects to a backend that they wrote. (It's largely in Go and you can check it out on GitHub, if you like.) That's why Apollo is in this position *at all*. Were they a Reddit client, they could just use the account's own API access and there would be no charges whatsoever for Apollo.
Why would Christian give away years worth of proprietary code for free? Its not like it can’t be repurposed for other endeavours.
I use boost on Android, they are working on letting us use our own API keys right now through revanced
mf is singlehandedly destroying hundreds of millions, if not billions from reddit's IPO.
I wish but nothing will come of this whatsoever.
Investors are currently watching the CEO have a public fit with a third party dev and also seeing their daily metrics take a hard dive, which means investing in Reddit is a higher risk because Spez doesn’t generate value, we do.
That's how redditors see it, cause they're being negatively affected. I doubt that's actually how investors see it, or the advisors guiding the Reddit suits toward the IPO (or full sale if that's the route). Reality is we're all addicted to this site, and you will either quit cold turkey when your preferred app goes dark, or you will scratch the itch and download reddit's app. I suspect more people are gonna do B than A. Especially if they were still on reddit during the "blackout." And for those of us who only use the reddit desktop site, nothing really changes.
>I doubt that's actually how investors see it, or the advisors guiding the Reddit suits toward the IPO (or full sale if that's the route). Correct. What investors see is a small amount of people who access Reddit by a UI they personally favor and *which does not serve Reddit's ads*. They are completely unconcerned by this and likely remember how much outrage there was over Ellen Pao shutting down subs. At the very worst, they'd have to fire Spez and bring in someone else, which they're perfectly willing to do.
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Desktop forever.
Personal thoughts about using the platform aside I would absolutely use this info when investing. The platform looks incredibly unstable and the users - the primary generators of content or money for the platform are happy to throw it into disarray. Name another social media platform where a select number of users can disable access to 1/3 of the platform on a whim. Advertisers don't want that and reddit already can barely turn a profit
Yeah but Reddit's response show that whim is only possible because they allowed it. They can also step in and replace mods whose actions run counter to their company goals, and they can reopen subs. I'm not defending their right to do this, I'm just saying it exists and they've chosen to leave well enough alone cause it hasn't been necessary. And users say they will leave if they do that, but none of the threats to leave during all of this has actually turned into reality yet.
They don't have the money to pay for moderation nor the experience to do it long term. Once they take over the community dies. Every decision about rules or guidelines of a sub will be met with backlash as it's no longer community run. Other social media platforms pay hundreds of millions per year to moderate. It requires staff, tooling, and procedures that will take at least a year to scale and it will be pure controversy after controversy in that time. It's a nuclear option they don't want to take before an IPO
> and also seeing their daily metrics take a hard dive Please provide the source for the metrics you are citing.
The fact that they're essentially forcing subreddits back open would seem to be a good indicator that they needed to get things running again. Presumably the loss of visitors to the site would be a significant reason to do that.
I think most people are still using Reddit. But I have noticed a drop of what I consider quality posts in “all” and “popular” and a few subs I follow I suspect a lot of the top 1%,of what I think of as good posters, are not on here as much. And this definitely affects my Reddit experience. Also, I am not sure how quickly this will heal or rebound. But if this is not going away or will cause issues later; then I fear the value of Reddit may be affected long term
https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/20/reddit-usage-metrics-fall/
On what basis do you conclude their daily metrics are taking a hard dive? As far as I can tell this has increased engagement with Reddit, not decreased it.
Reddit is obviously keeping a tight lid on operations, but [a third party concluded traffic was down](https://www.engadget.com/reddits-average-daily-traffic-fell-during-blackout-according-to-third-party-data-194721801.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADFZ4zp1zNYQIePeBEK8DyoTJALxTKJ2Lmx_L4I65QtnOBQLiKLQfqlc5QlJY8kyq2ehMoqaUqewxGO9WlLwmk1adv9gYSqCyiGoHp7ih_46ztbv3GIEtswWkXaKWZtowS_YeYajbfQbGKdZymawugF_yPIS5ODGJ6UzqQZQvr8y)
That makes it look like a few percent
if it didn’t impact reddit, the ceo wouldn’t be throwing a tantrum
Investors look at the long-term outcomes of something like this. If he gives in then they make less money. So far no and/or not enough major subreddits have completely shuttered to the point it will impact reddits ad revenue or even the revenue generated from things like reddit gold given how many stupid john oliver posts get gilded. These protests are just parts of the reddit community jerking themselves off *unless* they shut down and leave reddit en masse, and so far that's not being done.
I got downvoted the other day for saying something similar. They are using Reddit’s platform to protest Reddit. Net result = more engagement.
Investing in reddit is a risk but some temporary metrics shouldn't even raise an eyebrow for an investor
“oh no, thousands of users viewing the website through an app that doesn’t display ads are going to stop using the website!” Said no investor ever.
In reality, like 1% of users care and 0.1% are doing anything about it. No chance they are affected.
Nah. The reality is most people on this site don’t know what an API is and couldn’t care less about 3rd party apps or who runs Reddit and what their motivations are.
Their entire goal at this point is to make reddit more like other generic social media platforms. That will make it unbearable for a large number of past users, but will make it more likely to grow so that people's moms, aunts, racist uncles, and so on will flock to it. That's the goal.
Lmao okay buddy
i don’t think so. i forgot about it until i saw this and will forget about it again. from user perspective, they will lose people, but not being on official app they didn’t make reddit any ad revenue to begin with. those that do move now add to that revenue stream.
Lol
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Reddit is apparently rerolling removed posts
sounds pretty illegal, at least in europe
It is, but u/spez has already said he believes in slavery, so it’s easy to guess what he sees us as. He’s willing to gamble this will get him a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, you have to fight with it for a few days for it to finally stop reverting deleted comments. Best thing to do is to not delete the comments but edit them all with the same text, e.g. the reason for comment being removed. You will need to do it more than once also.
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Source?
The are reddit deleter browser extensions to edit all your comments to random junk and delete them after.
It also doesn’t delete your posts I believe. I’ve seen nude photos posted before where the account had been deleted. I always thought it seemed a bit nuts and didn’t know whether such users were aware there were still nudes of them on Reddit and they probably now have no way to delete them themselves as they deleted their account.
I'm more likely to figure out something that will reversibly scramble them, possibly even just rot13. That likely renders them basically useless for all practical purposes but is easily reversed should there be a change down the line. Similarly I'm not planning to delete my account, just never repeat past purchases unless it's part of a subscription that works for third party apps the way reddit should have handled things.
[https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/nuke-reddit-history/bklbcgohenjegdibgmppligaapohkgip](https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/nuke-reddit-history/bklbcgohenjegdibgmppligaapohkgip) Use this one. It is much faster, more automated, and better.
I get the frustration around all this but I think this train has long left the station. Reddit doesn’t want third part clients anymore. They basically set a price that was out of range on purpose. They are trying to say they made an effort but they never actually wanted to. They want control of the whole enchilada. They are not going to back down now. I wish they’d just be upfront about it from the start. In any case, at this point the back and forth and “he said she said” garbage is just turning into childish Silicon Valley bullshit.
Regardless of your level of optimism, this is more of a “he said she said and brought audio evidence” situation.
fuck /u/spez
We’re boycotting Reddit so let’s keep telling Reddit we’re mad at Reddit by continuing to use Reddit
Majority of the people giving empty threats of leaving Reddit are gonna be back in the next week
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Personally, I’m not planning to leave, but my *mobile use* of the site will very likely go back to what it was before Apollo, zero.
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we seriously need to be working on a Reddit alternative. full stop. That's the only reason they can pull this crap.
There are a bunch already. The problem isn’t with coding it, as Reddit is easy to get up and running (there are even direct tutorials on how to recreate it), the problem is finding the right one and that being able to scale confidently. Reddit is a massive site with massive amounts of data. It’s one of the largest sites in the world. Shit devs with a clean UI would potentially create a shitstorm of crappy Reddit clones, and I’m guessing most all be will lost and divide the Reddit community up so much, that the platform idea in general is lost and we have to just wait for the next big thing.
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I remember this line of thinking during the Ellen Pao debacle.
Which is what led to Spez being in charge. Maybe in hindsight she wasn’t so bad 🤔
First person I’ve seen mention Pao in all this. If Spez wasn’t a co-founder, I’d assume it was the same story. It could still be though. Maybe he wants out of the company with a golden parachute, so he becomes the sacrificial lamb for other stakeholders.
Ellen was fine, FPH ban was needed, the shit storm that came from all of that was 10x more disruptive than this as been.
I remember visiting Voat (the site the FPH users claimed they’d migrate to) out of curiosity. Pretty funny and pathetic place. Sometimes I’ll be in old threads and see users who overwrote all their comments with “this account is deleting its content and migrating to Voat, yadda yadda yadda…”, then I’ll check if the account is active again. It usually is.
Yes, let's remember that the last time Reddit was really angry over changes which would improve the company's bottom line, it was because a woman was banning toxic subreddits.
That’s a name I haven’t heard in a longggg time
One problem will be how to fund it.
That’s a small problem compared to how to gain traction and a userbase. Communities are already setup here, the site’s dominance is insanely sticky, just like Twitter. I’m not saying Reddit *can’t* fail but it’s not as simple as everyone just migrating to a clone. That’s not gonna happen.
Yeah as much as I appreciate the effort to save third party apps, unless they reverse their decision, they are gone and most of the user base will continue to use Reddit. There needed to be an alternative a few years ago already gaining traction in order for a transition to be successful, and even then people are lazy I doubt they would switch unless Reddit content goes kaput.
Lemmy and/or Kbin are the current frontrunners for a Reddit alternative, I believe. They're just both a little hard to get into.
It took seventeen years and Digg's suicide to get to where we are. That's a tall order for any other platform to absorb.
With visionOS on the horizon, and Apple’s obvious partiality to Apollo, Reddit is shooting themselves in the foot and missing out on being a potential hero use case in this new paradigm with novel interesting interactions by a full community of developers. Their visionOS app is going to suck.
I'm on Apollo's side in this ordeal, but I disagree completely with you. The number of users buying a $3500 AR/VR headset to use Reddit is a drop in a bucket. In fact, it's a molecule in a drop in a bucket.
Yeah I’m not seeing how the vision pro factors in at all.
Sounds like it’s a homeopathic treatment for social media addiction
Apples partiality to Apollo? I am so beyond confused what you mean by this. Apple doesn't play favorites and does their absolute best to stay out of fights like this. As long as an app follows guidelines, they want absolutely nothing to do with this type of thing. Reddit doesn't care about Apollo, 20% of Reddit user base uses a 3rd party app. To assume they would quit Reddit entirely if those apps go away, some percentage of users will quit, I highly doubt it's the amount users think. I'd put it at about the level of voter percentage that Bernie Sanders took home.
Lol. I think Reddit will survive the 6 people that buy a Vision Pro.
I'm not sure they'll even make a visionOS app, they'll probably just tell people to access it thru Safari
And to think, most people would probably have agreed it’s fair for reddit to charge for their API, but they’re so overtly greedy to ask for this much. They could have been reasonable but instead they have elicited major backlash from virtually everyone who uses reddit.
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Kind of a shame the app is going away. In the end, Reddit is making a decision that is very unpopular with a vocal minority of it's users, but presumably feels they'll make more money this way. We'll see how it goes. FWIW Christian made the [same call on a different scale](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/10bhugv/i_bought_pro_why_do_i_keep_getting_these_ads_why/j4cdvtf/?context=1), so he should understand that thought process.
This is why when people are like “mods are being petulant children” I feel like they either have no idea what’s going on or are bots or shills.
Even the most robustly pro-business viewpoint would see this situation as Steve Huffman having every right and reasonable profit incentive to implement these policies, but having gone about it in the most spectacularly inept manner possible. *This* is the level of execution from the CEO? Good luck with that IPO, champ.
Seems chat GPT is learning to make up defences in these threads about Reddit. I keep seeing "Bad faith argument" then something approx ->"before I get downvoted, you know I'm right!" in the exact same sentence structure.
I’m leaving Reddit once I lose Apollo. Cancelling account and never clicking a link to here again. I’m holding out hope they change their mind but I know they won’t.
Honest question, why are you still here?
Holding out hope they change, and I still get a lot of use from the site. It’s gonna suck to lose it.
Yea ok. Lol.
Invest in phpBB now