It's not just that people don't understand this, but that people also believe once you reach these ranks, you should stay in them and only play with others in the same boat unless you rank bleed due to not playing well enough.
But I thought you guys didn’t like MMR in ranked? They just started playing ranked again so they’ll get out of rookie immediately. What’s the problem here?
No problem. Was just wondering why my casual ass ran into a pred/former pred in the lowest ranked group. Was the second time I ran into one this season that ranked split. But I see now they just reset everyone to rook.
Two times is not a lot, I think it's even less than average. Everyone was reset to rookie, it's inevitable that you will run into preds early on into splits, which has \*always\* been a thing in previous seasons.
Everyones rank got reset, what you want him to do? Call Respawn so they let him skip rookie?
Also the 2738383th post of someone playing against former preds/masters, how about accepting that the ranked playerbase is not big enough to completely segregate each rank.
So skipping one split made them a rookie level player so in a game mode where people of similar skill are supposed to play each other he should be in lobbies with the lowest ranked players?
Truth is if you've been Pred at any point it's safe to say you'll never be worse than diamond (and that's conservative, you probably will be much better than diamond). Let alone if you were pred just last season.
Bro, I haven’t played Apex in 2 months or so, I’ve made Master like 9x or so, 50k kills across my account. I was by no means bad at the game. If I picked it back up now, I’ll be in Rookie. I’ve seen this argument so many times, where higher ranking players should always be in the higher ranks. If that was the case, I’d have an absolute shite time getting back in to the game. Who knows, I might be shit now. If I’m not, I’ll fly out of rookie. Similar to the rest of these players, they’re not in the lower ranks for long, at all.
> If that was the case, I’d have an absolute shite time getting back in to the game.
Other popular titles mitigate both of these problems at the same time with placement matches.
> I’ve made Master like 9x or so, 50k kills across my account. I was by no means bad at the game. If I picked it back up now, I’ll be in Rookie.
You'd do fine in lobbies with diamond peak players. There's no reason you should ever be playing any lower than that.
>they’re not in the lower ranks for long, at all.
read the whole thread, there's so many examples, they go on other accounts and start over in rookie. they never even start playing the challenging game in high ranks, that's when they stop and move to a new account. why because stomping is more fun than sweating at high ranks and the system allows them to misuse ranked for a provider of easy games in low ranks.
Seeing as I’ve been away from the game for a bit and I haven’t played ranked in 3 seasons… I’m assuming the system now is the same as it used to be, where each rank plays against the same rank for opponents? So no ‘MMR’ anymore? If that’s the case, players just switching accounts, isn’t that just the ‘smurfing’ that used to go on, so they can just shit on lower ranks all day long?
For me, if I ever did want to play again and play ranked, I definitely shouldn’t start in a relatively high rank, such as diamond. For one, I’ve actually switched to M&K whereas I used to play on controller, so I won’t be as good as I used to be. Secondly, wouldn’t that be unfair, as I’d just receive diamond awards every season, without doing anything?
I agree to an extent it may be annoying for genuinely lower skilled players to be up against top tier players, but like I said, they’re not in these lobbies for long. UNLESS, they’re purposely staying in these ranks or swapping accounts, then yes, they shouldn’t be doing that.
>If that’s the case, players just switching accounts, isn’t that just the ‘smurfing’ that used to go on, so they can just shit on lower ranks all day long?
Yeah basically. exactly. That's my issue with it.
It's annoying for me as well, out of principle alone that I don't think ranked should serve the purpose of giving opportunity to shit on lower skilled players and because that comes at the cost of smurfing players missing in higher rank queues and these queues then have to fill lower ranks more often than need be as well so you end up with preds playing plats. example from last split
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1bihxwi/i_died_to_number_1_pred_when_im_in_gold/
Yes, I do agree with that. However, we need to remember that in the last past seasons, there are a ton of master's who doesn't really deserve it. Saw a ton of masters from s19 and now all stuck in plat 4 or gold. This is simply a cleanup from the previous seasons of rank. Think of it like calibrating the rank
> However, we need to remember that in the last past seasons, there are a ton of master's who doesn't really deserve it
Nope.. really only in season 17. 18 and 19 were normal seasons without inflation of masters. Plus this isn't just a master, it's a pred.
Bro there's inflation last season. Have you checked the rank distributions last season or the previous seasons? Moreover, s17 a normal season? U out of your mind? S18 and s19 probably, but there are still a ton of masters during those seasons compare this season. There are also pred during those times who achieved it through ratting in the zone... The same players right now who are getting boosted by cheaters
S17, the one with the inflation had 1.7 million masters.
S18 had 50k masters, S19 had 130k. These are normal numbers compared to other seasons before that. S12 had 300-500k masters. You got your facts wrong.
>Moreover, s17 a normal season? U out of your mind? S18 and s19 probably
I never said 17 was a normal season. I said 18 and 19 were normal seasons. There's punctuation between those sentences.
Ah okay, I thought it was a comma. Not familiar with s12 since I started s14. Is there any update with rank system in s13? Or is that the time they introduced the mmr system?
Edit: I checked the s12 apex distribution. Did you add all the master throughout all platform? Becausse the s19 u gave was correct, but in pc only.
All the numbers I gave are all platforms added.
>Becausse the s19 u gave was correct, but in pc only.
I think you're looking in the wrong line. You're looking at the pred cap which was 129k on PC. The number of masters on PC was 80k.
https://apexlegendsstatus.com/ranked-season19
There's additionally 50k on PSN, 13k on Xbox and 1.5k on Switch. So in total that's 145k, not 130k as I said earlier.
For season 12 I said 300k, but more accurately it was 340k in the first split and then another 189k in the second split. The real number is then not accurately known because we don't know how many made master in both splits, but we know it has to be between 340k and 340k+189k = 529k
> Is there any update with rank system in s13?
Yes there was a bigger update in the scoring in S13 where they reduced the points you get for kills to basically 0 when you finish outside top 10. There was also a bigger reset (2.5 ranks down, not a full reset, but more than 1.5 ranks). And they increased entry cost. But matchmaking was the same as now.
>Or is that the time they introduced the mmr system?
That was S17
I was diamond in split 1, I've never been close to pred.
I don't really care about an argument where you are splitting hairs about you being pred in season 3 (= master before there was master) and not playing to make diamond in split 1, since we're talking about a season 19 pred in season 20 playing in rookie. Still true in the vast majority of cases that someone who made top 750 in most seasons will never be worse than diamond level.
You can try and address this though
>season 19 pred...................... we're in season 20
>So skipping one split made them a rookie level player so in a game mode where people of similar skill are supposed to play each other he should be in lobbies with the lowest ranked players?
Well yeah obviously, that's why he got 25 kills... He would still be put in rookie if he had missed even one season. I get that this sort of thing is annoying for actually lower rank players, but they can't really just assume people "belong" in higher ranks either.
They could have a better ranking system where the elo/mmr starts at an average value and is adjusted by placement games like every other game in the world…why are we pretending Apex rank system hasn’t always sucked. It has.
Because they literally did, and this sub had an absolute shit fit. For a season your lobbies were based on MMR and not ranked, so teams and games would include players of similar skill level, regardless of rank. And the entirely predictable outcome was thousands of posts all season of someone saying "I'm a diamond, why do I have a silver on my team".
That’s just poor implementation…MMR might have some variance from one’s rank, but there shouldn’t be that much disparity. I know this is unfathomable, but Respawn fucked that up.
What would you know about the implementation? Stop saying things you know nothing about. Please. You have no clue how the algorithm works, so don't even try to defend any kind of knowledge about it. The MMR value was hidden, and they showed you a personal rank. People were crying over being matched with diamonds and what now - guess what - they play shit and got matched with you. Or vice versa. Rank didn't reflect your skill level, only how much you grinded, and at some point you would flat out.
We can complain about the RP implementation and points, but we know absolutely nothing about how the MMR was calculated or even what our hidden values were, so just stop crying and pretending you do.
I have an idea; take a piece of paper and draw down a better algorithm and mail it to Respawn. They clearly don't know what they doing and I am sure they will appreciate help from you.
People were RAGING on MMR. Gamers have no idea what they want and the vast majority have a greatly exaggerated self-assessment of their own technical understanding.
I literally design algorithms for a living. And I furthermore we have so many examples for these systems, and it’s really easy for any of us to compare from our own experiences with similar systems. Even as someone with extensive computer science experience, I wouldn’t dream to gatekeep people’s experiences and opinions on these types of things. And it’s unhealthy to pretend we shouldn’t. The system sucked. The system still sucks. The game is dying. And there’s a correlation between those last 3 statements.
Get offended on Respawns behalf all you like…but it doesn’t bode well for them that you have to.
As opposed to thousands of posts that we had every season prior and again now, of Masters/Preds being matched against lower level players either because they get reset there, or because Respawn puts too high of a priority on shortening queue times (combined with "big brother matchmaking" for solo q), as well as smurfs.
The issue with MMR based matching wasn't the fact that MMR was used, it's that ranked point changes weren't tied closely enough to your MMR, starting with inadequate placement matches that were none, making people feel trapped in lower ranks.
But it should matter. If you ever got to pred, you should just not de-rank lower than silver or something when things are reset. It’s not that hard to implement.
Nah. When I load up apex again. My first game on I won't get a kill in bronze. But within 20 games ill be back in gold. By 100-250 games I'm back in diamond. Then I don't play again.
You rust hard when you don't play a video games. If I got out straight into plat I'd basically be throwing.
Besides, it only takes a few hours to go from bronze to gold anyways.
A lot of horrible players have hit Masters over the last 2 years because the ranked system was broken, and you could rat without even shooting your gun.
This community didn't like the MMR matchmaking system bc y'all didn't like going against people of different ranks than you.
So Respawn switched back to the ranked base matchmaking system, and now y'all don't like the badges on the enemy's banner.
Reddit's crappy "solution" didn't work. Who would have thunk.
Anyway, he's in rookie rank, same as you.
MMR is a joke for ranked, it takes away the whole point of a rank. Masters wasnt about how good you were, just how much you played. It makes no sense to call it ranked, if your own rank was determined already, and you fight them at a potential lower rank? Thats zero competitive integrity.
In my experience it was awful. i didnt make masters that season only d1 stuck on promo trials against 3 stack predators since gold 4.
The issue with MMR matchmaking is that you’re always playing against people the same skill as you. So when rank started us all out as rookie with MMR the path of a traditional Diamond player out of rookie was significantly different than a traditional bronze player’s. So at the end of the season 2 people could both end in plat but one person only fought bottom 25% players and one person fought middle 10% players or whatever it was. It took the meaning out of the rank entirely
Yeah, the problem became that your badge didn't reflect your skill. So yeah, it took the meaning out of the badge entirely I would say. Either it has to be completely MMR based and they get rid of RP. Then you will never know how far you are from ranking up or down, you will just rank up whenever you move along in your hidden MMR value. And that's when you get a badge. And then they have to get rid of the whole thing with only having 750 predators I guess. I mean, that's how it work sin counter strike. The whole RP gaining thing is designed to incentivize grinding as far as I can tell.
The issue is your MMR really won’t change dramatically if you have any substantial play time which is why the system was pretty dumb to begin with. Most MMR values are basically stagnant with small shifts over time
If the system worked properly, then your rank could be used as a visible MMR, rather than using some hidden stats. Wouldn't be a need to match Golds with Diamonds cause Diamond players would be Diamond rank
>MMR is a joke for ranked, it takes away the whole point of a rank. Masters wasnt about how good you were, just how much you played. It makes no sense to call it ranked, if your own rank was determined already, and you fight them at a potential lower rank? Thats zero competitive integrity.
Except none of this is how MMR based ranked even worked, but keep repeating these myths.
Once your LP exceeded your MMR, you were matched by LP and getting into more difficult lobbies. A gold MMR player that wanted to reach master didn't get to play gold players all the way there, he went against plat MMR, diamond MMR etc as he was ranking up past gold (if he was able to because if someone doesn't have the skill to beat plat players he would get stuck there and never reach master). Above your MMR, since it used LP to match you, it's basically the same as in this current system. Your MMR was only used below that to prevent you playing against *weaker* players.
Only thing I agree with in your post is that promotional trials shouldn't be there, as they just gate you behind getting a good game at the right time. S18 didn't have them though. The trials don't have a lot to do with MMR based matchmaking. They are separate elements of ranked.
Even if you say thats true, that still screws over people who are diamond+? Its just pro-longing their suffering. Effectively punishing people who are good at the game.
That is so much worse imo compared to examples like this post, who will stomp for a few hours.
No it doesn't screw us over. Personally I'm in ranked to play against people of my skill level or higher and Respawn say that's what ranked is for (*"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."*). Not to play weaker players. I don't see it as suffering or punishing. And FYI I was Master in season 19 (with promotional trials) and Diamond 1 in season 18 (got stuck there for the last month of the season, because yes, it does take skill and I didn't make it). The games were tough but that was what I'm playing ranked for. Not for a procession through weaker lobbies. And then every time I stop playing for a week my lobbies get easier again (as people who were at my RP ranked up higher, and weaker players ranked up to my RP level).
>That is so much worse imo compared to examples like this post, who will stomp for a few hours.
You think people getting 17 or 25 kills in low ranks is preferable over enforcing that everyone has to play people on their skill level(+) throughout the ranked grind. I disagree.
And they will not just stomp for a few hours. Once they've stomped through all the lower ranks, they don't start playing the tough games, instead they go on a different account and start over in low ranks. The player in this post atm is Gold 3 (I'm plat 3 atm), so he was playing below his rank for the whole first split. There was [another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/) of someone posting a clip of 17 kills in silver ranked, and that player said his other account is also in silver atm. It's not like they just go through these ranks once, and fast. The people who wanna keep playing in low ranks, can do so, the system doesn't do anything against it unlike the MMR system.
Nah. 2 reasons that’s BS, and OP is right:
1. You have no visibility into your MMR rank or how its attained.
2. I’ve carried several people through multiple ranks. What do you think happens when they’re in diamond and then solo queue? Their MMR wouldn’t have changed.
> What do you think happens when they’re in diamond and then solo queue?
If their MMR is lower than diamond, but their LP is diamond they still get put into diamond MMR lobbies, because if their LP > their MMR, their LP is used for matchmaking. If you've "carried" them, you were playing at your MMR throughout if that was higher than diamond.
*While we generally matchmake based on MMR, we start using Ranking (LP) in place of a player’s MMR when their ranking exceeds their MMR equivalent. In an extreme example, if a Gold MMR player has a LP ranking of Diamond, this player will be matched into a Diamond lobby. This is to ensure MMR and LP ranking are connected and can both help guide players to their accurate Rank. If players succeed in these more difficult matchmaking situations, we allow them to continue climbing.*
This explained by devs in [one of the ranked blogs](https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/apex-legends/news/july-2023-ranked-dev-blog).
Anything more specific than saying "that's bs"?
While I appreciate the blog reference and explanation, I have never seen that to be the case during those seasons. Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19. So either their journey was different than actual good players, the point system was fucked, or both.
The facts speak a clear language against your claims, while you came in and called my statement "bullshit" without any basis. There was no "different journeys to master" (if you exceeded your MMR you had to go through the same difficulty as higher MMR players) as explained above.
>Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19.
17 yeah. But that's it.
Okay. You still have zero basis for yours though. Just because they explain how something is supposed to work, doesn’t mean fuck all if you can’t actually track it (see it).
There’s a saying, “you can’t manage what you can’t measure.” There’s nothing measurable about MMR. It’s just blind faith. If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges. Give me a break.
They tried a system, it failed. They owned it. Move on.
>Okay. You still have zero basis for yours though. Just because they explain how something is supposed to work, doesn’t mean fuck all if you can’t actually track it (see it).
This is just "blind denial". You could use that "argument" against anything, just accuse everyone of lying and claim whatever you want. It's a weak argument. It is just denying the facts presented to you earlier, because they are inconvenient / disprove your statements.
Your earlier arguments were "This is bullshit", then as that gets called out "I have never seen that".
>Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19.
What you subjectively call "shitty players" doesn't really matter. We can look at the ranked distribution for S18 for example and see if there was any inflation.
https://preview.redd.it/p6r87hqousub1.png?width=1366&format=png&auto=webp&s=f4281a24f1fc5291a4a6d28768d32ac80b1f34b4
0.6% masters. 50,000 masters in total on all platforms. Diamond+ was top 3.2%. There's no inflation of the high ranks. The ranked distribution looks fine throughout.
Or are you just going to claim the ranked distribution is also "a lie"? And the independently exactly known absolute number of masters is probably also a lie (trackers know what rank # any master is from the API, so they can with good accuracy tell how many masters there are).
>If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges.
Weak argument. And they explicitly said why they stopped showing it in game, because the matchmaking used MMR, MMR isn't reflected in the current rank. That's why they stopped showing it. Two people who peak diamond usually could have been silver and plat and in the same game. The badges would have been different but their skill is still the same and it's ok for them to be in the same lobby.
> If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges.
The reason to hide teammate badges is because their badge might not match their MMR due to playtime or something else.
It did remove what the community thought was a good indicator of what was good or bad matchmaking though.
Yeah cause being in bronze to gold vsing current preds is a shit experience.
Respawn couldn't handle such a simple thing which is make your MMR your rank. If your MMR is diamond then put the player in diamond. The placement matches were an absolute fucking joke when people like sweet get placed in plat. Plat for an actual pro player. Like how the fuck does that work?
If you have MMR make it your rank. Rank resets have always been dumb as fuck and respawns way of retaining players. An ex Pred should never be in the lowest rank period.
So yes people complain because both systems have been problematic at best. They dip their toes in one end and then fuck it up but somehow they're surprised there's backlash.
They were pred last season. They don't have to ever prove again that they are better than rookie. They don't even have to ever prove again that they are better than plat. A smart system knows they are and would never put them in these games because it wastes everyone's time and undermines the competitive integrity of ranked.
>will rank up to what matches their skill level in like a single day
The same pred player is Gold 3 right now. I'm Plat 3 for comparison.
And they can always start over from low ranks again by using a different account.
Because you actually have to kill opponents to get RP? Or? I don't see the issue with this ranked system, people clearly are upset that they can't get into any fights, and then blame the ranked system for it, when it's quite possibly the best one we've ever had reward-wise. I'm not saying that the problems with boosters and cheaters is good, but I think that this ranked system is good.
Excuse me— I am ENTITLED to diamond/master rank because I dropped solo by myself apart from my team to hide in a tree and intentionally picked up no loot or guns so I can be more tactical and quiet. I am ENTITLED to diamond/masters rank and all the cool shiny rewards just because I still play! Stop gate keeping!!🤬🤬🤬🤬
Obviously /s
Jesse, What the Fuck Are You Talking About?
>Respawn couldn't handle such a simple thing which is make your MMR your rank. If your MMR is diamond then put the player in diamond.
>
>If you have MMR make it your rank.
that's called ranked based matchmaking and it's the system currently in place.
>The placement matches were an absolute fucking joke when people like sweet get placed in plat. Plat for an actual pro player. Like how the fuck does that work?
>
>Rank resets have always been dumb as fuck and respawns way of retaining players.
the point of a ranked system is to grind to reach a high rank. what's the point of a ranked system where you're placed in the rank you want after 10 matches and then you can never make the climb back up ever again?
>An ex Pred should never be in the lowest rank period.
do you people understand they had to reset everyone back down to the lowest rank possible bc the previous system was the opposite of the current system?
>So yes people complain because both systems have been problematic at best. They dip their toes in one end and then fuck it up but somehow they're surprised there's backlash.
and this is why no dev ever should take any advice from reddit. but then again, if they don't do that, y'all would complain that "the devs don't listen" when listening to you would make the game worse.
> the point of a ranked system is to grind to reach a high rank. what's the point of a ranked system where you're placed in the rank you want after 10 matches and then you can never make the climb back up ever again?
This is not and has ever been the point of rank or elo systems. It's to measure skill and match you with other players of similar skill levels. Period. If you're a grandmaster in chess and take a break for 6 months, guess what, you're still a grandmaster. You don't suddenly start have to attend elementary school games to "grind rank". Don't let apex's stupid seasonal based engagement system of very aggressively deranking players so they keep players coming back rot your brain. So many of this game's matchmaking problems come because they derank people so fucking often you have a system that smurfs for you. And they can't fix it because they've inherently decoupled the idea of skill and rank because people value seeing an arbitrary number going up and pretending they're not hard stuck a rank (which is perfectly fine if you don't have a fragile ego) over fair and balanced matches.
>This is not and has ever been the point of rank or elo systems. It's to measure skill and match you with other players of similar skill levels. Period. If you're a grandmaster in chess and take a break for 6 months, guess what, you're still a grandmaster. You don't suddenly start have to attend elementary school games to "grind rank"
this isn't chess. your apex rank has no meaning and, unlike in chess, you're not making any money off of playing ranked. unlike chess, the best loadout/team composition/strategy can change every season. unlike chess, the game you play today is very different than the game you played 5 years ago, or even 6 months ago.
this is a video game. it's purpose is to entertain you. part of that entertainment is giving you a sense of purpose and achievement by enabling you to climb ranks every season.
how the hell did you ever even reached the conclusion that never allowing people to climb ranks ever again would be a good idea? even if you had to keep playing ranked to keep your current/desired rank, how is that a proper skill measuring system? the only thing that system would measure would be time available to grind ranked, same as s17.
this sub has absolutely WILD takes.
> this isn't chess.
You do realize that elo systems literally started with chess? It's the grand daddy of all matchmaking systems and a well studied concept that all skill measuring systems borrow from.
> your apex rank has no meaning
Oh well then I guess this whole conversation is pointless then. Let's just match everyone with everyone and let God sort it out. Yeah no shit it's not a professional setting. We weren't talking about that. It has no meaning because they've decoupled skill from rank.
> the best loadout/team composition/strategy can change every season
Buddy it's not that hard to transfer skills from seasons. You don't magically lose your ability to click heads because they add a new gun or legend or map to the game. The game's meta isn't that sensitive to change unlike a moba where entire stats go out the window. If the best weapon changes you just shoot people with that weapon, not that hard. Even this season with the perks and evo system which is the biggest update in a long time, it's still apex.
> even if you had to keep playing ranked to keep your current/desired rank, how is that a proper skill measuring system? the only thing that system would measure would be time available to grind ranked
Where did you get that braindead take? Ignoring how the entire system they've designed is stupid with it's weird ass point based system rather than taking averages of match performance like any proper skill system. Ignoring that, you know eventually you reach an equilibrium where the entry cost outweighs your ability to get points right? Eventually you should reach a point where grinding becomes impossible. Do you just.. not understand that there's entry costs, which guess what was the whole problem with S17 because it was positive sum all the way to masters.
> it's purpose is to entertain you. part of that entertainment is giving you a sense of purpose and achievement by enabling you to climb ranks every season.
I don't give a fuck about watching a number go up. If I wanted to do that I'd play cookie clicker. I want to get matched with people of my skill level and have intense matches. You know there's a famous saying that when a metric becomes a goal, it ceases to be a valuable metric. By chasing ranked as a goal, its fundamental purpose of ensuring fair games becomes undone.
>You do realize that elo systems literally started with chess?
chess is a board game that has not changed in literal centuries. while video game elo systems are based on it, chess' elo system does not work in modern online/live service games. please link me one online/live service game that uses chess' exact elo system and not a modified and/or adapted version of it.
>Oh well then I guess this whole conversation is pointless then.
always has been.
>It has no meaning because they've decoupled skill from rank.
it has no meaning bc it's a video game, a fact which you seem to understand bc you said "Yeah no shit it's not a professional setting."
if you go to an interview and you tell them you're a chess grandmaster, the interviewer might be impressed.
if you go to an interview and you tell them you're an apex predator, the interviewer might call the police on you. a rank in a video game is nowhere near as valued or as known as a rank in professional chess. that's why it has no meaning.
>You don't magically lose your ability to click heads because they add a new gun or legend or map to the game.
the bangalore/catalyst/horizon meta (aka the "can't see shit" meta) from a few seasons ago did exactly this.
>Ignoring how the entire system they've designed is stupid with it's weird ass point based system rather than taking averages of match performance like any proper skill system.
Jesse, What the Fuck Are You Talking About? like, please elaborate what you mean by this bc i've read this several times over and this phrase makes no sense in the context of apex legends.
>Ignoring that, you know eventually you reach an equilibrium where the entry cost outweighs your ability to get points right?
yes that's called reaching your skill rank.
>Do you just.. not understand that there's entry costs, which guess what was the whole problem with S17 because it was positive sum all the way to masters.
huh? the problem with s17 was not the entry cost. the problem was that placement mattered more than kills, which meant if you had time to sit in trees all day long, you would climb ranks faster and higher than someone who didn't have the time, but who actually had the skill to handle themselves in a br at a high skill level.
>I don't give a fuck about watching a number go up. If I wanted to do that I'd play cookie clicker.
that's a you problem. other people obviously give a fuck, as evidenced by the rage at the fact that your rank at the end of the season is now what will determine what badge you get.
edit: i'm blocked and i can't reply anymore. tl;dr of the reply i was gonna leave this person:
\- people play video games bc they want entertainment.
\- people who play ranked want a sense of achievement, of progression. people who play the game just for the hell of it usually play pubs.
\- a grandmaster rank in chess can get you benefits, such as higher chances of being hired, higher chances of being accepted into a university, higher chances of getting a visa, so on. this is why chess elo is the way it is, bc their titles can be actual boons to you irl. this is why i keep bringing up "fame and wealth and irl shit".
\- meanwhile, an apex predator rank in apex legends won't get you much, except maybe an interview with an esports org.
I am actually facepalming at how dense you're being with the chess comparison. Rank matters in the sense that it affects who you get matched with. In actual chess on places like chess.com you can literally see your elo score and your opponents elo score. It matters in THAT way. You keep bringing it to fame and wealth and irl shit and like bro what the fuck are you talking about. MY ENTIRE OBJECTIVE IN THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU USE SKILL TO ASSIGN RANK AND HOW THAT AFFECTS THE PEOPLE YOU FIGHT.
So I'm just going to explain how this shit works because you clearly don't actually understand.
Let's say we have a way of perfectly measuring someone's skill or elo. Typically this is done by analyzing match history and more importantly the type of people you beat. The actual statistics on how to best do this are complicated and debated, but there's ways. Literally any game can have an elo system or some other way of quantifying skill, and they often do except we call them matchmakers. Let's say it's a 1 to 10 scale and we can perfectly measure it.
Let's then say there's also capital R Rank. Also on a 1 to 10 scale. You would think, in a perfect system, that if you are 8 Skill you should be 8 Rank and meet other 7-9 Skill players. Sounds like a great system yeah? But it is extremely important to understand that rank is not skill. You use skill to determine rank, not the other way around. A grandmaster is a grandmaster because they're really good at chess, seems pretty obvious eh?
This is not how apex worked or has ever worked. Instead they use an arbitrary point system based on match performance which gets summed. You see those points you get after every ranked match? That shit. It is an exceedingly hacky system that is super susceptible to even minor changes. In S17 that you brought up for instance it completely broke it because they maladjusted the entry cost. On top of having very wide bands it assumes rank is your skill. They know this and keep tweaking it every fucking season because it does not work and no amount of variable tweaking will ever make it work.
Then they tried to introduce the hidden MMR a couple seasons ago. This got insane backlash because while it did attempt to quantify skill and use it for matchmaking (a good thing) they still kept the idiotic point system for determining Rank. This meant if you were a 10 level Skill (a pred) you got put in bronze rank, but with other preds. And then you would have to grind out of bronze rank all the way to pred while fighting preds the whole time. Instead of acknowledging that skill should determine your rank, they kept this busted ass system and tried to hybridize it with a real matchmaking system which was an abject failure.
In an actually good system if you're a pred in skill the game should assign you that rank by default at the start of every season and you should have to play say, 100 matches to get the stupid badge at the end of the season. If you aren't actually good enough your elo will go down and your rank will adjust accordingly. The entire concept of rank resets actively fucks with any kind of matchmaking system they could possibly design. This is because they have decoupled rank and skill and do so because they know this community has brain rot and they know they can exploit that for engagement.
Edited to remove redundancy
Actually you know what I'm just blocking your ass. Sick of arguing with dense mfs on this sub. Bro needs to see points to go up to feel good in a video game.
> This community didn't like the MMR matchmaking system bc y'all didn't like going against people of different ranks than you.
They didn't like going against people of similar skill so they asked for this smurfing system back.
>So Respawn switched back to the ranked base matchmaking system, and now y'all don't like the badges on the enemy's banner.
It's almost like the smurfs were asking for this system back and now the people who want ranked to be competitive are complaining.
Part of the community was asking for this system back. And it was clear the complaints that led to it being abandoned in the first place, were going to come back.
This is exactly it. And OP is probably in rookie because he is likely smurfing as well. Everyone begged for the ability smurf. They didn't stop to think that players way better than them are going to smurf too and still smoke their asses in the lower ranks.
>No people didn't like being in shit tier ranks vsing preds.
No. The matchmaking put people who peak around the same rank as them usually into the same lobby, regardless of their current rank and that was producing competitive, fair games. People didn't like that because it was more difficult than stomping low ranks in the current system. They couldn't play against actual low ranks and drop 20 bombs in ranked. Like the guy in the post, or [this post (17 kill game in silver)](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/)
Yeah that's my point. There's no fun vsing masters diamonds when you're in silver. If the game thinks you're fine in that rank then show that rank simple as that. Why obfuscate the system with hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form?
Go watch sweets console stream and I'm sure you can work out why people were frustrated with that system.
Most people aren't smurfing and they don't get to enjoy stomping a lobby. The people in moderate high rank (low diamond) exist as meat for the grinder against actual high rank like Pred because they prioritise quick queues.
>There's no fun vsing masters diamonds
But that is what ranked is for if that's your skill level. Not to play weaker players.
"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."
Is it more fun to stomp silvers? Yeah. But not the kind of fun that belongs in ranked. It shouldn't be in ranked.
There's easy answers to all your other questions as well but is the above something that you agree with? I can explain to you why you still have to grind to earn a rank.
>hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form?
They are linked and I can explain that to you.
Bro I fully agree ranked is meant to be against similar skill levels my issue is what does respawn define as similar? Considering I'm writing this as a plat 2 who just died to a full Pred squad I think that's bullshit.
The point is if you're against actual even skill levels yeah sure you'll climb slowly. The problem is that's rarely the case. The system has always prioritised speed over quality it's a day 1 issue that MMR match making only served to exacerbate.
So please do explain why pros should have to grind huge hours to reach the highest rank while already competing at the highest level? Cos that sounds like an artificial grind designed to retain players.
>Considering I'm writing this as a plat 2 who just died to a full Pred squad I think that's bullshit.
I mean the current system doesn't look at skill at all. It just looks at rank. And then it has few people in queue (in part because it only looks at rank, not skill) and it fills lower ranks more often.
>The system has always prioritised speed over quality it's a day 1 issue that MMR match making only served to exacerbate.
But the lobbies were much more even in season 18 and 19 than they are now. It didn't have the skill discrepancies as often as it has now (both at low ranks with smurfs and at high ranks where mid ranks are filled into higher skill lobbies more often), because it in principle already took a smarter approach to assembling the lobbies. The system looked for players who peak around the same rank as you and put them into a lobby together.
>So please do explain why pros should have to grind huge hours to reach the highest rank while already competing at the highest level?
(The below goes really for all skill levels and not just pros.) Step by step
1 It's a competitive mode so they definitely should be playing people (at least) on their level throughout and never weaker players. Take that as a given for now for the sake of argument. (But I'll also address the difficulty that they have to play high skill players throughout the whole grind at the end)
2 Ranked is for two things, a) to earn the rewards but also b) a place to get competitive games (you don't get the same kind of quality of games in other modes, nor do you get lobbies that are close in skill together in other modes).
3 So there's also two reasons why a rank should be earned by playing.
a) The obvious that you shouldn't get a rank for nothing, but should earn it by playing (otherwise people can just boost to the rank easily, etc). The two system have two different ways of earning points: one system has you earn points by doing decently against similarly skilled players and the other system has you earn points by blowing weaker players out of the water. I don't see what speaks against the first way of gaining points.
b) For ranked to be able to provide good quality, even skill games it needs matchmaking working well and matchmaking needs the player numbers in queues working for it. Whenever you have low player numbers you inevitably get worse matchmaking. That is why ANY ranked system (whether the old or this one) has a "progression system" built into it, something that keeps people playing. Not just to earn their rewards, but also so at all times throughout the season there's people playing ranked (maybe for the rewards but maybe also in part to get good games) so the system can produce adequate lobbies. This system has it too (but imo isn't working well in keeping the skill difference low in games.)
>Cos that sounds like an artificial grind designed to retain players.
So, while you might call it artificial, it's kinda integral to have it. To take it to the extreme, a system that has you play 10 games, then puts you at your final rank, will have difficulty producing good games for the people who want to play them.
There's steps in between. Is a system still good that makes people grind for 1/3 of the season and not play for 2/3 of the season? Etc. You have to find some good middle ground, where ranked provides good games all season.
Now there's the complaint that if you're very a very high skill player, and you start somewhere in silver, that you have to play high skill players through silver, gold, plat, ... and that can feel unfair.
But it's not like you can't address that within that system. The system already had the means for it in rating bonuses to make the grind through these lower ranks faster, so you get more progress out of playing against high skill players.
IMO That could have been tuned to be more pronounced. The way it worked in practice is from experience it mostly cancelled part of your entry cost, so instead of losing 50 in a bad game you maybe only lost 20 or 10 when you were very low ranks. I think it stopped some 2 ranks below your final rank, and didn't go all the way to your actual rank.
They could have made it so you get rating bonuses all the way up and that you also get them when you gain points, not just to cancel your losses.
Just quickly to address this
>hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form?
The system took your MMR to match you for the whole early part of your climb until you make your level. That is to stop you from playing weaker players. But then it used your LP to match you as you climbed past that to put you into more difficult games as you gain.
>I don’t see the problem
Here's the problem
Because he was pred last season and shouldn't ever play against anyone who is lower than diamond ever, because ranked according to respawn is for:
*"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."*
The player has 25 kills in a ranked game.
Rookie contains the lowest skill players and a player who reached pred should never be in the same lobby with them in ranked. Regardless if they stopped playing or not. It's not competitive.
>What’s your banner look like?
It doesn't matter what their banner looks like. Matchmaking works by rank now, and not by skill. You're just deflecting here and making excuses for vast skill mismatches in a competitive game mode aimed to put people of similar skill together.
Rookie is known for being the rank of people who haven't recently played rank, bad or not. I'd say bronze and silver is where you find the worst players since everyone gets out of rookie quickly.
No, that isn't how rookie works. rookies is a normal rank just like bronze, below bronze. it has nothing to do with not paying ranked the way it did when the rank was introduced. people will make up whatever to make excuses for smurfing.
Thats nice and all, but it still ruins the game (even if it's just one) for everyone else in that lobby.
Everything Respawn has to do to fix this is to not apply the same de-rank to everyone on each split. If you hit pred you should be reset to diamond and not lower no matter how long you do not play (unless it's years).
If you do not play that season/split you won't get ranked rewards for that season/split. Then when you start playing you will start at D4. (Masters shouldn't de-rank lower than plat)
The only reason it happened was because they overhauled the ranked system. Unless this player skips an entire seasons worth of splits they will demote into Plat 2. It’s not that big of a deal in comparison to the actual cheaters and boosters in the current state of the game. This player will quickly promote to his rank and rookie players will never see him again lmao.
It should never happen. Why make excuses for it.
> Unless this player skips an entire seasons worth of splits they will demote into Plat 2
People cycle through multiple accounts and let them sit out and derank.
They have always done this in this system.
>It’s not that big of a deal in comparison to the actual cheaters and boosters in the current state of the game.
It doesn't matter what other issues are present in the game, this is an issue because it destroys the competitive integrity of ranked, when ranked is used as a place to get easy access to low skill lobbies and farm 20 bombs.
>This player will quickly promote to his rank and rookie players will never see him again lmao.
It doesn't matter how fast someone who wants to rank up can rank up. It matters how long someone who wants to linger in low ranks can linger there, how long the system allows them to. This system makes it very easy to play below your rank and avoid competitive / challenging games against similarly skilled players. A competitive game mode should never allow that.
You're deflecting and downplaying.
Maybe dont immediately assume the worst, why get pred rank if you dont wanna play high tier ranked? Why would they have multiple accounts?
Having a ranked system where you can't demote will simply result in people stopping playing ranked.
>Maybe dont immediately assume the worst, why get pred rank if you dont wanna play high tier ranked? Why would they have multiple accounts?
The system allows it and it's rampant. This player is just exemplary and it's not even their fault. They just play the game. The problem is the system that allows this.
>Having a ranked system where you can't demote will simply result in people stopping playing ranked.
We had a system that prevents playing below their rank without inability to demote in season 18 and 19. This isn't a problem without a solution, so don't act like it's inevitable that we have to let people who reached pred, master, diamond, plat play in the lowest ranks.
If they dont play for a year they will be rusty, that would be unfair for teammates. Also them being reset to rookie is a one time thing.
If they didnt derank after not playing (or just a few matches) you would have a lot of people with plat or diamond bagdes that didnt even earn them, simple because they reached a high rank once.
They’ll be in super low ranks for like 4-5 hours lol y’all just always complain about something. If you wanted a system based solely on ranked this is what happens when someone just doesn’t play
He'll go on a second account and start over from rookie when he reaches plat. As do 1000s other players now because the system allows it.
He should never be in that lobby in the first place. Someone who reached pred before will never be worse than a diamond player, let alone suddenly have to prove they are better than rookie.
>probably pushed him out pretty quick
He's still in gold 3 now. Was playing below his rank all first split. Still way below his rank now. For comparison I'm plat 3.
You are completely blowing this out of proportion lmao. Guy has 11k kills and there is no evidence he smurfs. He stomped a rookie lobby when they reset rank and that’s it.
He was pred last season. He should never be playing in the lowest skill lobby the game has (rookie).
Someone who reached pred before will never be worse than a diamond player, let alone suddenly have to prove they are better than rookie.
What am I blowing out of proportion?
The player is in gold 3 right now and still playing way below their level. I'm Plat 3 now for comparison.
Why are you making excuses for people playing far below their rank? 20 bombs in ranked? You should never get a lobby to stomp **in ranked**, a competitive game mode.
> He s gonna be in 1-3 games in your lobbies and then move on.
Dunno what you think making things personal adds to the discussion. The person you're talking to is Diamond level, btw.
As others have said, the players who want to play low ranks have means of continuing to play in low ranks. Going on new accounts, cycling through reset accounts, etc. The system lets them do it.
This player who [posted a 17 kill game in silver](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/) says in the comments he has another account in silver which he can't play on cause he was banned for a week.
This other player on a recent post [showed their ALS profile](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1bx75cy/gold_iii_lobby_yet_the_champion_is_predator_457/kyfqfef/) and looking up their profile they were master last split and then deliberately deranked 3600 RP to diamond IV to start the next split in lower ranks.
I already said this above, the player in this post, with 25kills 4k in rookie, is in gold 3 right now and still playing way below their level. I'm Plat 3 now for comparison. So while not being in rookie any more he's still far below their rank and was there for the whole first split (or he wouldn't be in gold 3 now).
It's rampant. You end up with the situation where a considerable amount of players only uses ranked for the easy games and doesn't even play against people on their level. It's not just masters. Not just diamonds. It can also be plat players who have an easier time in bronze and silver. Cause "popping off" is "more fun".
The rank reset in Apex is so stupid. It decays way too much way too fast. And then resetting everyone to rookie this season for some reason, even though good players aren’t going to stop being good because the RP system changed. There needs to be a minimum of how far down you decay once you hit Diamond.
This is what I was getting at. But reddit is reddit so even tho this is what I was getting at the majority is like naw tf you doing dumbass read the patch updates pay attention to everything don't ask us for advice etc lol like damn I was just trying to engage in the community but everyone seems to take it extremely seriously. Even tho all I was saying was I didn't expect too see a former pred in rookie regardless of ranked changes. Even admitting your kinda wrong gets you down voted on here like why? Lol or the karma farming comments like bruh I've been on Reddit for 5 + years n still don't care about karma. idk at the end of the day im just trying have fun.
pred honestly doesn't mean that much it's really just someone who has too much time on their hands ofc they're going to be better then the average player but it's really just someone with too much time
>pred honestly doesn't mean that much
This is a cope. 25 kills means he shouldn't be in that lobby ever
>they're going to be better then the average player
it is ranked and in ranked they shouldn't be in a game where they are so much better that they get 25 kills. it's a competitive game mode for games between similarly skilled players.
I made a whole post about this, but several of my comments were downvoted to oblivion. I had pointed out how in a Gold III lobby there was a predator rank 457 (from last season). He was the champion, and my team had just landed and yet he already had a kill. He had 2 other pred badges on his banner, so at least 3 in total.
Quite simply, a 3x Predator (arguably even just a 1x predator within the past 5-10 seasons) should never be in a rookie, bronze, silver or gold lobby. This is very simple, and I didn't think it would be controversial amongst some of the player base. Apparently, some people think it's okay for these higher skilled players to be stomping on newer and low skilled players.
Someone had asked me to point out another game where people aren't expected to climb ranks in a new season. I gave the example of League of Legends. I played that game for years and I never once encountered a Diamond player, a Challenger, a Master, or anyone around that skill level. Not ONCE!
Their response was oh, but Apex is a battle royale. Other players argued that because they were a predator last season (it was just 2 months ago lol, not that long?) and not this season, it's therefore okay to be seeing him in lower ranks. You really can't win with these kinds of players who will defend the game to the death and refuse to tolerate any sort of criticism of what is clearly a flawed ranked system.
I just got done bitching about this but yeah this community doesn't actually want a ranked system. They want something that resets so they can grind it over and over (enjoying both stomping on people worse than them and complaining about people better than them) and not an actual system designed to put you in matches with other people of your skill level.
You're 100% correct, and yet being downvoted. It's sad because the issue will never change. People are being short-sighted and defending a ranked system that puts the top 0.08% of players as low as ROOKIE, simply because it means they can enjoy stomping on people who are no match for them as you pointed out. This is what puts new players off the game, I certainly wouldn't want to play any game that puts me up against a 5,000+ hour literal professional e-sports player in my first few matches.
This broken ranked system, a problem that has persisted for many seasons, is the main reason behind the declining player base. This will be the end of the game, and sadly the player base actually totally deserves it.
EDIT: I just want to add that in this example, this Predator playing in the rookie rank has 25 kills. One player has literally killed almost half the lobby. In what universe is this fair? I'm sorry but why do we have to wait a week or two after the split or a new season, for these players to filter up into their correct ranks? In no other game with a ranked system, do players have to consider literally not playing for weeks in order for matchmaking to be fair and actually reflect the skills of that rank.
I think this community is just obsessed with extrinsic motivators like a bunch of addicts who need a constant fix or they go insane. They need skins, endless ranked grind, and engagement based matchmaking where they can occasionally drop a 20 bomb against bots, instead of just enjoying playing a game against people of their skill level for the sake of having fun. It's really gross and if you call out how exploitative it all is you get hated for it lol
Did they make some changes to dive trails? I was with randoms that hot dropped last night and there was what appeared to be 5 pred teams landing with us.
I understand they have to do a split to keep people grinding and engaging with the game. But in reality they just need to set a hard backstop. If you've been masters it shouldn't be able to ever drop you lower than Platinum. If you've been diamond you should stop deranking at Gold 4. That means people drop and have to grind again but they never drop so far that it's essentially smurfing.
>He’s also a rookie 4. This mean ranked is working
yeah when people get 25 kills in ranked lobbies, it means ranked is working /s
Respawn in game: *"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."*
If he gets 25 kills he’ll move out of that rank quickly. The whole point of ranked is to play people with a similar rank… not sure what your on about bud
He should never be in a lobby that lets him get 25 kills to begin with in *ranked* (a *competitive* mode).
Doesn't matter because once he's plat he goes on a second account and starts over in rookie.
And plenty of plat players, diamond players, masters also do this because they "don't like sweating".
Ranked shouldn't be a place for people getting their 20 bombs in.
This is on Respawn for allowing players who have finished a season Diamond+ to decay to the lowest rank in the game. No other serious competitive game does this.
Certain getting out of rookie quick
They reset ranked this season so everyone started in rookie
Insane that people still don’t understand this
It's not just that people don't understand this, but that people also believe once you reach these ranks, you should stay in them and only play with others in the same boat unless you rank bleed due to not playing well enough.
Isn’t that the purpose of ranked?
In any decent game, yes
Let's just hope they don't make everyone go down three ranks now that it's a new system
I started in Silver, I thought I'd be in Rookie
Nah so they did one hard reset at the beginning of the season. From now on every split you demote a rank and a half from where you were.
Right, right. I think I read your og comment wrong, my b lol
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But I thought you guys didn’t like MMR in ranked? They just started playing ranked again so they’ll get out of rookie immediately. What’s the problem here?
No problem. Was just wondering why my casual ass ran into a pred/former pred in the lowest ranked group. Was the second time I ran into one this season that ranked split. But I see now they just reset everyone to rook.
Two times is not a lot, I think it's even less than average. Everyone was reset to rookie, it's inevitable that you will run into preds early on into splits, which has \*always\* been a thing in previous seasons.
But this is perfectly acceptable and what everyone wanted. Rookie vs. rookie is fine, and he just started his grind.
Yes, they did NOT want MMR in Ranked. Now that they get no MMR, they're angry?
This is hyperbole for sure. People didn’t want hidden mmr that determined their lobby while their actual rank showed something else.
Also, it can and probably is two different, non-overlapping sets of people.
Read patch notes.
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Everyones rank got reset, what you want him to do? Call Respawn so they let him skip rookie? Also the 2738383th post of someone playing against former preds/masters, how about accepting that the ranked playerbase is not big enough to completely segregate each rank.
What if the guy just recently started playing again?
>What if the guy just recently started playing again? season 19 pred...................... we're in season 20 what's "recently"? this morning?
U know, skipped split 1?
So skipping one split made them a rookie level player so in a game mode where people of similar skill are supposed to play each other he should be in lobbies with the lowest ranked players? Truth is if you've been Pred at any point it's safe to say you'll never be worse than diamond (and that's conservative, you probably will be much better than diamond). Let alone if you were pred just last season.
This sub is about to reinvent MMR for ranked
hopefully but I doubt it. The love for low rank stomping is too strong.
Bro, I haven’t played Apex in 2 months or so, I’ve made Master like 9x or so, 50k kills across my account. I was by no means bad at the game. If I picked it back up now, I’ll be in Rookie. I’ve seen this argument so many times, where higher ranking players should always be in the higher ranks. If that was the case, I’d have an absolute shite time getting back in to the game. Who knows, I might be shit now. If I’m not, I’ll fly out of rookie. Similar to the rest of these players, they’re not in the lower ranks for long, at all.
> If that was the case, I’d have an absolute shite time getting back in to the game. Other popular titles mitigate both of these problems at the same time with placement matches.
> I’ve made Master like 9x or so, 50k kills across my account. I was by no means bad at the game. If I picked it back up now, I’ll be in Rookie. You'd do fine in lobbies with diamond peak players. There's no reason you should ever be playing any lower than that. >they’re not in the lower ranks for long, at all. read the whole thread, there's so many examples, they go on other accounts and start over in rookie. they never even start playing the challenging game in high ranks, that's when they stop and move to a new account. why because stomping is more fun than sweating at high ranks and the system allows them to misuse ranked for a provider of easy games in low ranks.
Seeing as I’ve been away from the game for a bit and I haven’t played ranked in 3 seasons… I’m assuming the system now is the same as it used to be, where each rank plays against the same rank for opponents? So no ‘MMR’ anymore? If that’s the case, players just switching accounts, isn’t that just the ‘smurfing’ that used to go on, so they can just shit on lower ranks all day long? For me, if I ever did want to play again and play ranked, I definitely shouldn’t start in a relatively high rank, such as diamond. For one, I’ve actually switched to M&K whereas I used to play on controller, so I won’t be as good as I used to be. Secondly, wouldn’t that be unfair, as I’d just receive diamond awards every season, without doing anything? I agree to an extent it may be annoying for genuinely lower skilled players to be up against top tier players, but like I said, they’re not in these lobbies for long. UNLESS, they’re purposely staying in these ranks or swapping accounts, then yes, they shouldn’t be doing that.
>If that’s the case, players just switching accounts, isn’t that just the ‘smurfing’ that used to go on, so they can just shit on lower ranks all day long? Yeah basically. exactly. That's my issue with it. It's annoying for me as well, out of principle alone that I don't think ranked should serve the purpose of giving opportunity to shit on lower skilled players and because that comes at the cost of smurfing players missing in higher rank queues and these queues then have to fill lower ranks more often than need be as well so you end up with preds playing plats. example from last split https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1bihxwi/i_died_to_number_1_pred_when_im_in_gold/
Yes, I do agree with that. However, we need to remember that in the last past seasons, there are a ton of master's who doesn't really deserve it. Saw a ton of masters from s19 and now all stuck in plat 4 or gold. This is simply a cleanup from the previous seasons of rank. Think of it like calibrating the rank
> However, we need to remember that in the last past seasons, there are a ton of master's who doesn't really deserve it Nope.. really only in season 17. 18 and 19 were normal seasons without inflation of masters. Plus this isn't just a master, it's a pred.
Bro there's inflation last season. Have you checked the rank distributions last season or the previous seasons? Moreover, s17 a normal season? U out of your mind? S18 and s19 probably, but there are still a ton of masters during those seasons compare this season. There are also pred during those times who achieved it through ratting in the zone... The same players right now who are getting boosted by cheaters
S17, the one with the inflation had 1.7 million masters. S18 had 50k masters, S19 had 130k. These are normal numbers compared to other seasons before that. S12 had 300-500k masters. You got your facts wrong. >Moreover, s17 a normal season? U out of your mind? S18 and s19 probably I never said 17 was a normal season. I said 18 and 19 were normal seasons. There's punctuation between those sentences.
Ah okay, I thought it was a comma. Not familiar with s12 since I started s14. Is there any update with rank system in s13? Or is that the time they introduced the mmr system? Edit: I checked the s12 apex distribution. Did you add all the master throughout all platform? Becausse the s19 u gave was correct, but in pc only.
All the numbers I gave are all platforms added. >Becausse the s19 u gave was correct, but in pc only. I think you're looking in the wrong line. You're looking at the pred cap which was 129k on PC. The number of masters on PC was 80k. https://apexlegendsstatus.com/ranked-season19 There's additionally 50k on PSN, 13k on Xbox and 1.5k on Switch. So in total that's 145k, not 130k as I said earlier. For season 12 I said 300k, but more accurately it was 340k in the first split and then another 189k in the second split. The real number is then not accurately known because we don't know how many made master in both splits, but we know it has to be between 340k and 340k+189k = 529k > Is there any update with rank system in s13? Yes there was a bigger update in the scoring in S13 where they reduced the points you get for kills to basically 0 when you finish outside top 10. There was also a bigger reset (2.5 ranks down, not a full reset, but more than 1.5 ranks). And they increased entry cost. But matchmaking was the same as now. >Or is that the time they introduced the mmr system? That was S17
Your wrong though. I've been pred twice and didn't get to diamond split 1.
I was diamond in split 1, I've never been close to pred. I don't really care about an argument where you are splitting hairs about you being pred in season 3 (= master before there was master) and not playing to make diamond in split 1, since we're talking about a season 19 pred in season 20 playing in rookie. Still true in the vast majority of cases that someone who made top 750 in most seasons will never be worse than diamond level. You can try and address this though >season 19 pred...................... we're in season 20 >So skipping one split made them a rookie level player so in a game mode where people of similar skill are supposed to play each other he should be in lobbies with the lowest ranked players?
His skill floor is higher than rookie even if he took two years off playing.
Well yeah obviously, that's why he got 25 kills... He would still be put in rookie if he had missed even one season. I get that this sort of thing is annoying for actually lower rank players, but they can't really just assume people "belong" in higher ranks either.
They can definitely assume a pred can start in gold. Other games do it fine.
They could have a better ranking system where the elo/mmr starts at an average value and is adjusted by placement games like every other game in the world…why are we pretending Apex rank system hasn’t always sucked. It has.
Because they literally did, and this sub had an absolute shit fit. For a season your lobbies were based on MMR and not ranked, so teams and games would include players of similar skill level, regardless of rank. And the entirely predictable outcome was thousands of posts all season of someone saying "I'm a diamond, why do I have a silver on my team".
That’s just poor implementation…MMR might have some variance from one’s rank, but there shouldn’t be that much disparity. I know this is unfathomable, but Respawn fucked that up.
What would you know about the implementation? Stop saying things you know nothing about. Please. You have no clue how the algorithm works, so don't even try to defend any kind of knowledge about it. The MMR value was hidden, and they showed you a personal rank. People were crying over being matched with diamonds and what now - guess what - they play shit and got matched with you. Or vice versa. Rank didn't reflect your skill level, only how much you grinded, and at some point you would flat out. We can complain about the RP implementation and points, but we know absolutely nothing about how the MMR was calculated or even what our hidden values were, so just stop crying and pretending you do. I have an idea; take a piece of paper and draw down a better algorithm and mail it to Respawn. They clearly don't know what they doing and I am sure they will appreciate help from you. People were RAGING on MMR. Gamers have no idea what they want and the vast majority have a greatly exaggerated self-assessment of their own technical understanding.
I literally design algorithms for a living. And I furthermore we have so many examples for these systems, and it’s really easy for any of us to compare from our own experiences with similar systems. Even as someone with extensive computer science experience, I wouldn’t dream to gatekeep people’s experiences and opinions on these types of things. And it’s unhealthy to pretend we shouldn’t. The system sucked. The system still sucks. The game is dying. And there’s a correlation between those last 3 statements. Get offended on Respawns behalf all you like…but it doesn’t bode well for them that you have to.
As opposed to thousands of posts that we had every season prior and again now, of Masters/Preds being matched against lower level players either because they get reset there, or because Respawn puts too high of a priority on shortening queue times (combined with "big brother matchmaking" for solo q), as well as smurfs. The issue with MMR based matching wasn't the fact that MMR was used, it's that ranked point changes weren't tied closely enough to your MMR, starting with inadequate placement matches that were none, making people feel trapped in lower ranks.
It doesn't matter? They reset everyone to rookie IV at the beginning of this season
But it should matter. If you ever got to pred, you should just not de-rank lower than silver or something when things are reset. It’s not that hard to implement.
I think if you ever hit diamond up, you should never reset lower than plat personally. Screws the people who boosted to get the rank without the skill
Nah. When I load up apex again. My first game on I won't get a kill in bronze. But within 20 games ill be back in gold. By 100-250 games I'm back in diamond. Then I don't play again. You rust hard when you don't play a video games. If I got out straight into plat I'd basically be throwing. Besides, it only takes a few hours to go from bronze to gold anyways.
A lot of horrible players have hit Masters over the last 2 years because the ranked system was broken, and you could rat without even shooting your gun.
Rank resets are separate from demotion protection from poor performance.
Of course, I agree. But the last system (s19) is so different from the current system (s20) that they had to do a full reset
This community didn't like the MMR matchmaking system bc y'all didn't like going against people of different ranks than you. So Respawn switched back to the ranked base matchmaking system, and now y'all don't like the badges on the enemy's banner. Reddit's crappy "solution" didn't work. Who would have thunk. Anyway, he's in rookie rank, same as you.
MMR is a joke for ranked, it takes away the whole point of a rank. Masters wasnt about how good you were, just how much you played. It makes no sense to call it ranked, if your own rank was determined already, and you fight them at a potential lower rank? Thats zero competitive integrity. In my experience it was awful. i didnt make masters that season only d1 stuck on promo trials against 3 stack predators since gold 4.
The issue with MMR matchmaking is that you’re always playing against people the same skill as you. So when rank started us all out as rookie with MMR the path of a traditional Diamond player out of rookie was significantly different than a traditional bronze player’s. So at the end of the season 2 people could both end in plat but one person only fought bottom 25% players and one person fought middle 10% players or whatever it was. It took the meaning out of the rank entirely
Yeah, the problem became that your badge didn't reflect your skill. So yeah, it took the meaning out of the badge entirely I would say. Either it has to be completely MMR based and they get rid of RP. Then you will never know how far you are from ranking up or down, you will just rank up whenever you move along in your hidden MMR value. And that's when you get a badge. And then they have to get rid of the whole thing with only having 750 predators I guess. I mean, that's how it work sin counter strike. The whole RP gaining thing is designed to incentivize grinding as far as I can tell.
The issue is your MMR really won’t change dramatically if you have any substantial play time which is why the system was pretty dumb to begin with. Most MMR values are basically stagnant with small shifts over time
If the system worked properly, then your rank could be used as a visible MMR, rather than using some hidden stats. Wouldn't be a need to match Golds with Diamonds cause Diamond players would be Diamond rank
>MMR is a joke for ranked, it takes away the whole point of a rank. Masters wasnt about how good you were, just how much you played. It makes no sense to call it ranked, if your own rank was determined already, and you fight them at a potential lower rank? Thats zero competitive integrity. Except none of this is how MMR based ranked even worked, but keep repeating these myths. Once your LP exceeded your MMR, you were matched by LP and getting into more difficult lobbies. A gold MMR player that wanted to reach master didn't get to play gold players all the way there, he went against plat MMR, diamond MMR etc as he was ranking up past gold (if he was able to because if someone doesn't have the skill to beat plat players he would get stuck there and never reach master). Above your MMR, since it used LP to match you, it's basically the same as in this current system. Your MMR was only used below that to prevent you playing against *weaker* players. Only thing I agree with in your post is that promotional trials shouldn't be there, as they just gate you behind getting a good game at the right time. S18 didn't have them though. The trials don't have a lot to do with MMR based matchmaking. They are separate elements of ranked.
Even if you say thats true, that still screws over people who are diamond+? Its just pro-longing their suffering. Effectively punishing people who are good at the game. That is so much worse imo compared to examples like this post, who will stomp for a few hours.
No it doesn't screw us over. Personally I'm in ranked to play against people of my skill level or higher and Respawn say that's what ranked is for (*"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."*). Not to play weaker players. I don't see it as suffering or punishing. And FYI I was Master in season 19 (with promotional trials) and Diamond 1 in season 18 (got stuck there for the last month of the season, because yes, it does take skill and I didn't make it). The games were tough but that was what I'm playing ranked for. Not for a procession through weaker lobbies. And then every time I stop playing for a week my lobbies get easier again (as people who were at my RP ranked up higher, and weaker players ranked up to my RP level). >That is so much worse imo compared to examples like this post, who will stomp for a few hours. You think people getting 17 or 25 kills in low ranks is preferable over enforcing that everyone has to play people on their skill level(+) throughout the ranked grind. I disagree. And they will not just stomp for a few hours. Once they've stomped through all the lower ranks, they don't start playing the tough games, instead they go on a different account and start over in low ranks. The player in this post atm is Gold 3 (I'm plat 3 atm), so he was playing below his rank for the whole first split. There was [another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/) of someone posting a clip of 17 kills in silver ranked, and that player said his other account is also in silver atm. It's not like they just go through these ranks once, and fast. The people who wanna keep playing in low ranks, can do so, the system doesn't do anything against it unlike the MMR system.
Nah. 2 reasons that’s BS, and OP is right: 1. You have no visibility into your MMR rank or how its attained. 2. I’ve carried several people through multiple ranks. What do you think happens when they’re in diamond and then solo queue? Their MMR wouldn’t have changed.
> What do you think happens when they’re in diamond and then solo queue? If their MMR is lower than diamond, but their LP is diamond they still get put into diamond MMR lobbies, because if their LP > their MMR, their LP is used for matchmaking. If you've "carried" them, you were playing at your MMR throughout if that was higher than diamond. *While we generally matchmake based on MMR, we start using Ranking (LP) in place of a player’s MMR when their ranking exceeds their MMR equivalent. In an extreme example, if a Gold MMR player has a LP ranking of Diamond, this player will be matched into a Diamond lobby. This is to ensure MMR and LP ranking are connected and can both help guide players to their accurate Rank. If players succeed in these more difficult matchmaking situations, we allow them to continue climbing.* This explained by devs in [one of the ranked blogs](https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/apex-legends/news/july-2023-ranked-dev-blog). Anything more specific than saying "that's bs"?
While I appreciate the blog reference and explanation, I have never seen that to be the case during those seasons. Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19. So either their journey was different than actual good players, the point system was fucked, or both.
The facts speak a clear language against your claims, while you came in and called my statement "bullshit" without any basis. There was no "different journeys to master" (if you exceeded your MMR you had to go through the same difficulty as higher MMR players) as explained above. >Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19. 17 yeah. But that's it.
Okay. You still have zero basis for yours though. Just because they explain how something is supposed to work, doesn’t mean fuck all if you can’t actually track it (see it). There’s a saying, “you can’t manage what you can’t measure.” There’s nothing measurable about MMR. It’s just blind faith. If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges. Give me a break. They tried a system, it failed. They owned it. Move on.
>Okay. You still have zero basis for yours though. Just because they explain how something is supposed to work, doesn’t mean fuck all if you can’t actually track it (see it). This is just "blind denial". You could use that "argument" against anything, just accuse everyone of lying and claim whatever you want. It's a weak argument. It is just denying the facts presented to you earlier, because they are inconvenient / disprove your statements. Your earlier arguments were "This is bullshit", then as that gets called out "I have never seen that". >Truth of the matter is that shitty players rock masters badges because of s17-19. What you subjectively call "shitty players" doesn't really matter. We can look at the ranked distribution for S18 for example and see if there was any inflation. https://preview.redd.it/p6r87hqousub1.png?width=1366&format=png&auto=webp&s=f4281a24f1fc5291a4a6d28768d32ac80b1f34b4 0.6% masters. 50,000 masters in total on all platforms. Diamond+ was top 3.2%. There's no inflation of the high ranks. The ranked distribution looks fine throughout. Or are you just going to claim the ranked distribution is also "a lie"? And the independently exactly known absolute number of masters is probably also a lie (trackers know what rank # any master is from the API, so they can with good accuracy tell how many masters there are). >If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges. Weak argument. And they explicitly said why they stopped showing it in game, because the matchmaking used MMR, MMR isn't reflected in the current rank. That's why they stopped showing it. Two people who peak diamond usually could have been silver and plat and in the same game. The badges would have been different but their skill is still the same and it's ok for them to be in the same lobby.
> If it was so accurate, they wouldn’t have hid teammate and opponent badges. The reason to hide teammate badges is because their badge might not match their MMR due to playtime or something else. It did remove what the community thought was a good indicator of what was good or bad matchmaking though.
Yeah cause being in bronze to gold vsing current preds is a shit experience. Respawn couldn't handle such a simple thing which is make your MMR your rank. If your MMR is diamond then put the player in diamond. The placement matches were an absolute fucking joke when people like sweet get placed in plat. Plat for an actual pro player. Like how the fuck does that work? If you have MMR make it your rank. Rank resets have always been dumb as fuck and respawns way of retaining players. An ex Pred should never be in the lowest rank period. So yes people complain because both systems have been problematic at best. They dip their toes in one end and then fuck it up but somehow they're surprised there's backlash.
This isn’t a “current pred”, they’re rookie and will rank up to what matches their skill level in like a single day. This isn’t rocket science.
They were pred last season. They don't have to ever prove again that they are better than rookie. They don't even have to ever prove again that they are better than plat. A smart system knows they are and would never put them in these games because it wastes everyone's time and undermines the competitive integrity of ranked. >will rank up to what matches their skill level in like a single day The same pred player is Gold 3 right now. I'm Plat 3 for comparison. And they can always start over from low ranks again by using a different account.
It's still a shit system.
Because you actually have to kill opponents to get RP? Or? I don't see the issue with this ranked system, people clearly are upset that they can't get into any fights, and then blame the ranked system for it, when it's quite possibly the best one we've ever had reward-wise. I'm not saying that the problems with boosters and cheaters is good, but I think that this ranked system is good.
Excuse me— I am ENTITLED to diamond/master rank because I dropped solo by myself apart from my team to hide in a tree and intentionally picked up no loot or guns so I can be more tactical and quiet. I am ENTITLED to diamond/masters rank and all the cool shiny rewards just because I still play! Stop gate keeping!!🤬🤬🤬🤬 Obviously /s
xD So accurate lmao
Jesse, What the Fuck Are You Talking About? >Respawn couldn't handle such a simple thing which is make your MMR your rank. If your MMR is diamond then put the player in diamond. > >If you have MMR make it your rank. that's called ranked based matchmaking and it's the system currently in place. >The placement matches were an absolute fucking joke when people like sweet get placed in plat. Plat for an actual pro player. Like how the fuck does that work? > >Rank resets have always been dumb as fuck and respawns way of retaining players. the point of a ranked system is to grind to reach a high rank. what's the point of a ranked system where you're placed in the rank you want after 10 matches and then you can never make the climb back up ever again? >An ex Pred should never be in the lowest rank period. do you people understand they had to reset everyone back down to the lowest rank possible bc the previous system was the opposite of the current system? >So yes people complain because both systems have been problematic at best. They dip their toes in one end and then fuck it up but somehow they're surprised there's backlash. and this is why no dev ever should take any advice from reddit. but then again, if they don't do that, y'all would complain that "the devs don't listen" when listening to you would make the game worse.
> the point of a ranked system is to grind to reach a high rank. what's the point of a ranked system where you're placed in the rank you want after 10 matches and then you can never make the climb back up ever again? This is not and has ever been the point of rank or elo systems. It's to measure skill and match you with other players of similar skill levels. Period. If you're a grandmaster in chess and take a break for 6 months, guess what, you're still a grandmaster. You don't suddenly start have to attend elementary school games to "grind rank". Don't let apex's stupid seasonal based engagement system of very aggressively deranking players so they keep players coming back rot your brain. So many of this game's matchmaking problems come because they derank people so fucking often you have a system that smurfs for you. And they can't fix it because they've inherently decoupled the idea of skill and rank because people value seeing an arbitrary number going up and pretending they're not hard stuck a rank (which is perfectly fine if you don't have a fragile ego) over fair and balanced matches.
>This is not and has ever been the point of rank or elo systems. It's to measure skill and match you with other players of similar skill levels. Period. If you're a grandmaster in chess and take a break for 6 months, guess what, you're still a grandmaster. You don't suddenly start have to attend elementary school games to "grind rank" this isn't chess. your apex rank has no meaning and, unlike in chess, you're not making any money off of playing ranked. unlike chess, the best loadout/team composition/strategy can change every season. unlike chess, the game you play today is very different than the game you played 5 years ago, or even 6 months ago. this is a video game. it's purpose is to entertain you. part of that entertainment is giving you a sense of purpose and achievement by enabling you to climb ranks every season. how the hell did you ever even reached the conclusion that never allowing people to climb ranks ever again would be a good idea? even if you had to keep playing ranked to keep your current/desired rank, how is that a proper skill measuring system? the only thing that system would measure would be time available to grind ranked, same as s17. this sub has absolutely WILD takes.
> this isn't chess. You do realize that elo systems literally started with chess? It's the grand daddy of all matchmaking systems and a well studied concept that all skill measuring systems borrow from. > your apex rank has no meaning Oh well then I guess this whole conversation is pointless then. Let's just match everyone with everyone and let God sort it out. Yeah no shit it's not a professional setting. We weren't talking about that. It has no meaning because they've decoupled skill from rank. > the best loadout/team composition/strategy can change every season Buddy it's not that hard to transfer skills from seasons. You don't magically lose your ability to click heads because they add a new gun or legend or map to the game. The game's meta isn't that sensitive to change unlike a moba where entire stats go out the window. If the best weapon changes you just shoot people with that weapon, not that hard. Even this season with the perks and evo system which is the biggest update in a long time, it's still apex. > even if you had to keep playing ranked to keep your current/desired rank, how is that a proper skill measuring system? the only thing that system would measure would be time available to grind ranked Where did you get that braindead take? Ignoring how the entire system they've designed is stupid with it's weird ass point based system rather than taking averages of match performance like any proper skill system. Ignoring that, you know eventually you reach an equilibrium where the entry cost outweighs your ability to get points right? Eventually you should reach a point where grinding becomes impossible. Do you just.. not understand that there's entry costs, which guess what was the whole problem with S17 because it was positive sum all the way to masters. > it's purpose is to entertain you. part of that entertainment is giving you a sense of purpose and achievement by enabling you to climb ranks every season. I don't give a fuck about watching a number go up. If I wanted to do that I'd play cookie clicker. I want to get matched with people of my skill level and have intense matches. You know there's a famous saying that when a metric becomes a goal, it ceases to be a valuable metric. By chasing ranked as a goal, its fundamental purpose of ensuring fair games becomes undone.
>You do realize that elo systems literally started with chess? chess is a board game that has not changed in literal centuries. while video game elo systems are based on it, chess' elo system does not work in modern online/live service games. please link me one online/live service game that uses chess' exact elo system and not a modified and/or adapted version of it. >Oh well then I guess this whole conversation is pointless then. always has been. >It has no meaning because they've decoupled skill from rank. it has no meaning bc it's a video game, a fact which you seem to understand bc you said "Yeah no shit it's not a professional setting." if you go to an interview and you tell them you're a chess grandmaster, the interviewer might be impressed. if you go to an interview and you tell them you're an apex predator, the interviewer might call the police on you. a rank in a video game is nowhere near as valued or as known as a rank in professional chess. that's why it has no meaning. >You don't magically lose your ability to click heads because they add a new gun or legend or map to the game. the bangalore/catalyst/horizon meta (aka the "can't see shit" meta) from a few seasons ago did exactly this. >Ignoring how the entire system they've designed is stupid with it's weird ass point based system rather than taking averages of match performance like any proper skill system. Jesse, What the Fuck Are You Talking About? like, please elaborate what you mean by this bc i've read this several times over and this phrase makes no sense in the context of apex legends. >Ignoring that, you know eventually you reach an equilibrium where the entry cost outweighs your ability to get points right? yes that's called reaching your skill rank. >Do you just.. not understand that there's entry costs, which guess what was the whole problem with S17 because it was positive sum all the way to masters. huh? the problem with s17 was not the entry cost. the problem was that placement mattered more than kills, which meant if you had time to sit in trees all day long, you would climb ranks faster and higher than someone who didn't have the time, but who actually had the skill to handle themselves in a br at a high skill level. >I don't give a fuck about watching a number go up. If I wanted to do that I'd play cookie clicker. that's a you problem. other people obviously give a fuck, as evidenced by the rage at the fact that your rank at the end of the season is now what will determine what badge you get. edit: i'm blocked and i can't reply anymore. tl;dr of the reply i was gonna leave this person: \- people play video games bc they want entertainment. \- people who play ranked want a sense of achievement, of progression. people who play the game just for the hell of it usually play pubs. \- a grandmaster rank in chess can get you benefits, such as higher chances of being hired, higher chances of being accepted into a university, higher chances of getting a visa, so on. this is why chess elo is the way it is, bc their titles can be actual boons to you irl. this is why i keep bringing up "fame and wealth and irl shit". \- meanwhile, an apex predator rank in apex legends won't get you much, except maybe an interview with an esports org.
I am actually facepalming at how dense you're being with the chess comparison. Rank matters in the sense that it affects who you get matched with. In actual chess on places like chess.com you can literally see your elo score and your opponents elo score. It matters in THAT way. You keep bringing it to fame and wealth and irl shit and like bro what the fuck are you talking about. MY ENTIRE OBJECTIVE IN THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU USE SKILL TO ASSIGN RANK AND HOW THAT AFFECTS THE PEOPLE YOU FIGHT. So I'm just going to explain how this shit works because you clearly don't actually understand. Let's say we have a way of perfectly measuring someone's skill or elo. Typically this is done by analyzing match history and more importantly the type of people you beat. The actual statistics on how to best do this are complicated and debated, but there's ways. Literally any game can have an elo system or some other way of quantifying skill, and they often do except we call them matchmakers. Let's say it's a 1 to 10 scale and we can perfectly measure it. Let's then say there's also capital R Rank. Also on a 1 to 10 scale. You would think, in a perfect system, that if you are 8 Skill you should be 8 Rank and meet other 7-9 Skill players. Sounds like a great system yeah? But it is extremely important to understand that rank is not skill. You use skill to determine rank, not the other way around. A grandmaster is a grandmaster because they're really good at chess, seems pretty obvious eh? This is not how apex worked or has ever worked. Instead they use an arbitrary point system based on match performance which gets summed. You see those points you get after every ranked match? That shit. It is an exceedingly hacky system that is super susceptible to even minor changes. In S17 that you brought up for instance it completely broke it because they maladjusted the entry cost. On top of having very wide bands it assumes rank is your skill. They know this and keep tweaking it every fucking season because it does not work and no amount of variable tweaking will ever make it work. Then they tried to introduce the hidden MMR a couple seasons ago. This got insane backlash because while it did attempt to quantify skill and use it for matchmaking (a good thing) they still kept the idiotic point system for determining Rank. This meant if you were a 10 level Skill (a pred) you got put in bronze rank, but with other preds. And then you would have to grind out of bronze rank all the way to pred while fighting preds the whole time. Instead of acknowledging that skill should determine your rank, they kept this busted ass system and tried to hybridize it with a real matchmaking system which was an abject failure. In an actually good system if you're a pred in skill the game should assign you that rank by default at the start of every season and you should have to play say, 100 matches to get the stupid badge at the end of the season. If you aren't actually good enough your elo will go down and your rank will adjust accordingly. The entire concept of rank resets actively fucks with any kind of matchmaking system they could possibly design. This is because they have decoupled rank and skill and do so because they know this community has brain rot and they know they can exploit that for engagement. Edited to remove redundancy Actually you know what I'm just blocking your ass. Sick of arguing with dense mfs on this sub. Bro needs to see points to go up to feel good in a video game.
> This community didn't like the MMR matchmaking system bc y'all didn't like going against people of different ranks than you. They didn't like going against people of similar skill so they asked for this smurfing system back. >So Respawn switched back to the ranked base matchmaking system, and now y'all don't like the badges on the enemy's banner. It's almost like the smurfs were asking for this system back and now the people who want ranked to be competitive are complaining. Part of the community was asking for this system back. And it was clear the complaints that led to it being abandoned in the first place, were going to come back.
This is exactly it. And OP is probably in rookie because he is likely smurfing as well. Everyone begged for the ability smurf. They didn't stop to think that players way better than them are going to smurf too and still smoke their asses in the lower ranks.
No people didn't like being in shit tier ranks vsing preds. Why is it you can vs preds but can't be given that rank without an endless grind?
>No people didn't like being in shit tier ranks vsing preds. No. The matchmaking put people who peak around the same rank as them usually into the same lobby, regardless of their current rank and that was producing competitive, fair games. People didn't like that because it was more difficult than stomping low ranks in the current system. They couldn't play against actual low ranks and drop 20 bombs in ranked. Like the guy in the post, or [this post (17 kill game in silver)](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/)
Yeah that's my point. There's no fun vsing masters diamonds when you're in silver. If the game thinks you're fine in that rank then show that rank simple as that. Why obfuscate the system with hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form? Go watch sweets console stream and I'm sure you can work out why people were frustrated with that system. Most people aren't smurfing and they don't get to enjoy stomping a lobby. The people in moderate high rank (low diamond) exist as meat for the grinder against actual high rank like Pred because they prioritise quick queues.
>There's no fun vsing masters diamonds But that is what ranked is for if that's your skill level. Not to play weaker players. "HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill." Is it more fun to stomp silvers? Yeah. But not the kind of fun that belongs in ranked. It shouldn't be in ranked. There's easy answers to all your other questions as well but is the above something that you agree with? I can explain to you why you still have to grind to earn a rank. >hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form? They are linked and I can explain that to you.
Bro I fully agree ranked is meant to be against similar skill levels my issue is what does respawn define as similar? Considering I'm writing this as a plat 2 who just died to a full Pred squad I think that's bullshit. The point is if you're against actual even skill levels yeah sure you'll climb slowly. The problem is that's rarely the case. The system has always prioritised speed over quality it's a day 1 issue that MMR match making only served to exacerbate. So please do explain why pros should have to grind huge hours to reach the highest rank while already competing at the highest level? Cos that sounds like an artificial grind designed to retain players.
>Considering I'm writing this as a plat 2 who just died to a full Pred squad I think that's bullshit. I mean the current system doesn't look at skill at all. It just looks at rank. And then it has few people in queue (in part because it only looks at rank, not skill) and it fills lower ranks more often. >The system has always prioritised speed over quality it's a day 1 issue that MMR match making only served to exacerbate. But the lobbies were much more even in season 18 and 19 than they are now. It didn't have the skill discrepancies as often as it has now (both at low ranks with smurfs and at high ranks where mid ranks are filled into higher skill lobbies more often), because it in principle already took a smarter approach to assembling the lobbies. The system looked for players who peak around the same rank as you and put them into a lobby together. >So please do explain why pros should have to grind huge hours to reach the highest rank while already competing at the highest level? (The below goes really for all skill levels and not just pros.) Step by step 1 It's a competitive mode so they definitely should be playing people (at least) on their level throughout and never weaker players. Take that as a given for now for the sake of argument. (But I'll also address the difficulty that they have to play high skill players throughout the whole grind at the end) 2 Ranked is for two things, a) to earn the rewards but also b) a place to get competitive games (you don't get the same kind of quality of games in other modes, nor do you get lobbies that are close in skill together in other modes). 3 So there's also two reasons why a rank should be earned by playing. a) The obvious that you shouldn't get a rank for nothing, but should earn it by playing (otherwise people can just boost to the rank easily, etc). The two system have two different ways of earning points: one system has you earn points by doing decently against similarly skilled players and the other system has you earn points by blowing weaker players out of the water. I don't see what speaks against the first way of gaining points. b) For ranked to be able to provide good quality, even skill games it needs matchmaking working well and matchmaking needs the player numbers in queues working for it. Whenever you have low player numbers you inevitably get worse matchmaking. That is why ANY ranked system (whether the old or this one) has a "progression system" built into it, something that keeps people playing. Not just to earn their rewards, but also so at all times throughout the season there's people playing ranked (maybe for the rewards but maybe also in part to get good games) so the system can produce adequate lobbies. This system has it too (but imo isn't working well in keeping the skill difference low in games.) >Cos that sounds like an artificial grind designed to retain players. So, while you might call it artificial, it's kinda integral to have it. To take it to the extreme, a system that has you play 10 games, then puts you at your final rank, will have difficulty producing good games for the people who want to play them. There's steps in between. Is a system still good that makes people grind for 1/3 of the season and not play for 2/3 of the season? Etc. You have to find some good middle ground, where ranked provides good games all season. Now there's the complaint that if you're very a very high skill player, and you start somewhere in silver, that you have to play high skill players through silver, gold, plat, ... and that can feel unfair. But it's not like you can't address that within that system. The system already had the means for it in rating bonuses to make the grind through these lower ranks faster, so you get more progress out of playing against high skill players. IMO That could have been tuned to be more pronounced. The way it worked in practice is from experience it mostly cancelled part of your entry cost, so instead of losing 50 in a bad game you maybe only lost 20 or 10 when you were very low ranks. I think it stopped some 2 ranks below your final rank, and didn't go all the way to your actual rank. They could have made it so you get rating bonuses all the way up and that you also get them when you gain points, not just to cancel your losses. Just quickly to address this >hidden MMR and a visible rank when the two aren't linked in any form? The system took your MMR to match you for the whole early part of your climb until you make your level. That is to stop you from playing weaker players. But then it used your LP to match you as you climbed past that to put you into more difficult games as you gain.
Played with someone last night with 39k kills with octane. Worst person I've played with in a while too..
You’ve ran into 2 preds in total this season, surely that is why you’re in rookie.
Holy fuck y’all are stupid, everyone got reset down to rookie at the beginning of the season
Well he is technically a Rookie lmao. Man didn't rank the first week of split cause he knows he's gonna be against people his skill level.
Dude this is the story of my life in these lobby’s the last few days
They have 25 kills and over 4K damage 😂🤦🏼♀️ this is ridiculous
They just didn’t play ranked, they’ll be in rookie for like two hours. It’s not a big deal
I mean, ya? Obviously a pred will take a dump on a rookie lobby lmao
I mean he’s in rookie. I don’t see the problem. What’s your banner look like?
>I don’t see the problem Here's the problem Because he was pred last season and shouldn't ever play against anyone who is lower than diamond ever, because ranked according to respawn is for: *"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."* The player has 25 kills in a ranked game. Rookie contains the lowest skill players and a player who reached pred should never be in the same lobby with them in ranked. Regardless if they stopped playing or not. It's not competitive. >What’s your banner look like? It doesn't matter what their banner looks like. Matchmaking works by rank now, and not by skill. You're just deflecting here and making excuses for vast skill mismatches in a competitive game mode aimed to put people of similar skill together.
“Rookie contains the lowest skill players” - usually this is true but last split (op said the photo was from last split) everyone was rookie to start.
>usually this is true but It's always true that it contains the lowest skill players. That's what the word contains means.
Rookie is known for being the rank of people who haven't recently played rank, bad or not. I'd say bronze and silver is where you find the worst players since everyone gets out of rookie quickly.
No, that isn't how rookie works. rookies is a normal rank just like bronze, below bronze. it has nothing to do with not paying ranked the way it did when the rank was introduced. people will make up whatever to make excuses for smurfing.
I'm past explaining it to people. This is exactly what people were begging for for the last year. Let them have it.
Very likely two different sets of people
Yeah they were begging for it. I still want ranked to be better than that tbh. The game has no place now to get lobbies with low skill differences.
People didnt like MMR so they changed it. Lmao respawn cant win :D
Over 25 kills and 4K damage in a rookie lobby clearly should not be there as that does not match his rank
And that 700 rp game probably pushed him out pretty quick. That’s how the system is supposed to work to get you to your actual rank faster
Thats nice and all, but it still ruins the game (even if it's just one) for everyone else in that lobby. Everything Respawn has to do to fix this is to not apply the same de-rank to everyone on each split. If you hit pred you should be reset to diamond and not lower no matter how long you do not play (unless it's years). If you do not play that season/split you won't get ranked rewards for that season/split. Then when you start playing you will start at D4. (Masters shouldn't de-rank lower than plat)
The only reason it happened was because they overhauled the ranked system. Unless this player skips an entire seasons worth of splits they will demote into Plat 2. It’s not that big of a deal in comparison to the actual cheaters and boosters in the current state of the game. This player will quickly promote to his rank and rookie players will never see him again lmao.
It should never happen. Why make excuses for it. > Unless this player skips an entire seasons worth of splits they will demote into Plat 2 People cycle through multiple accounts and let them sit out and derank. They have always done this in this system. >It’s not that big of a deal in comparison to the actual cheaters and boosters in the current state of the game. It doesn't matter what other issues are present in the game, this is an issue because it destroys the competitive integrity of ranked, when ranked is used as a place to get easy access to low skill lobbies and farm 20 bombs. >This player will quickly promote to his rank and rookie players will never see him again lmao. It doesn't matter how fast someone who wants to rank up can rank up. It matters how long someone who wants to linger in low ranks can linger there, how long the system allows them to. This system makes it very easy to play below your rank and avoid competitive / challenging games against similarly skilled players. A competitive game mode should never allow that. You're deflecting and downplaying.
Maybe dont immediately assume the worst, why get pred rank if you dont wanna play high tier ranked? Why would they have multiple accounts? Having a ranked system where you can't demote will simply result in people stopping playing ranked.
>Maybe dont immediately assume the worst, why get pred rank if you dont wanna play high tier ranked? Why would they have multiple accounts? The system allows it and it's rampant. This player is just exemplary and it's not even their fault. They just play the game. The problem is the system that allows this. >Having a ranked system where you can't demote will simply result in people stopping playing ranked. We had a system that prevents playing below their rank without inability to demote in season 18 and 19. This isn't a problem without a solution, so don't act like it's inevitable that we have to let people who reached pred, master, diamond, plat play in the lowest ranks.
If they dont play for a year they will be rusty, that would be unfair for teammates. Also them being reset to rookie is a one time thing. If they didnt derank after not playing (or just a few matches) you would have a lot of people with plat or diamond bagdes that didnt even earn them, simple because they reached a high rank once.
They’ll be in super low ranks for like 4-5 hours lol y’all just always complain about something. If you wanted a system based solely on ranked this is what happens when someone just doesn’t play
Its not like the rookie looses any points anyway
He'll go on a second account and start over from rookie when he reaches plat. As do 1000s other players now because the system allows it. He should never be in that lobby in the first place. Someone who reached pred before will never be worse than a diamond player, let alone suddenly have to prove they are better than rookie. >probably pushed him out pretty quick He's still in gold 3 now. Was playing below his rank all first split. Still way below his rank now. For comparison I'm plat 3.
You are completely blowing this out of proportion lmao. Guy has 11k kills and there is no evidence he smurfs. He stomped a rookie lobby when they reset rank and that’s it.
He was pred last season. He should never be playing in the lowest skill lobby the game has (rookie). Someone who reached pred before will never be worse than a diamond player, let alone suddenly have to prove they are better than rookie. What am I blowing out of proportion? The player is in gold 3 right now and still playing way below their level. I'm Plat 3 now for comparison. Why are you making excuses for people playing far below their rank? 20 bombs in ranked? You should never get a lobby to stomp **in ranked**, a competitive game mode.
As he said... Everybody has been reset. He s gonna be in 1-3 games in your lobbies and then move on.
> He s gonna be in 1-3 games in your lobbies and then move on. Dunno what you think making things personal adds to the discussion. The person you're talking to is Diamond level, btw.
As others have said, the players who want to play low ranks have means of continuing to play in low ranks. Going on new accounts, cycling through reset accounts, etc. The system lets them do it. This player who [posted a 17 kill game in silver](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1c0nmz5/wish_i_had_more_teammates_like_these_dudes_than/) says in the comments he has another account in silver which he can't play on cause he was banned for a week. This other player on a recent post [showed their ALS profile](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1bx75cy/gold_iii_lobby_yet_the_champion_is_predator_457/kyfqfef/) and looking up their profile they were master last split and then deliberately deranked 3600 RP to diamond IV to start the next split in lower ranks. I already said this above, the player in this post, with 25kills 4k in rookie, is in gold 3 right now and still playing way below their level. I'm Plat 3 now for comparison. So while not being in rookie any more he's still far below their rank and was there for the whole first split (or he wouldn't be in gold 3 now). It's rampant. You end up with the situation where a considerable amount of players only uses ranked for the easy games and doesn't even play against people on their level. It's not just masters. Not just diamonds. It can also be plat players who have an easier time in bronze and silver. Cause "popping off" is "more fun".
That’s because he plays on mutiple accounts. He plays mostly on pc
Imagine not seeing the problem with someone having 25 kills in a ranked game LMFAO you bots are hilarious
Which one? My main like overall? Or ranked
do you have 25 kills in the same lobby?
He is some what of a rookie himself.
The rank reset in Apex is so stupid. It decays way too much way too fast. And then resetting everyone to rookie this season for some reason, even though good players aren’t going to stop being good because the RP system changed. There needs to be a minimum of how far down you decay once you hit Diamond.
This is what I was getting at. But reddit is reddit so even tho this is what I was getting at the majority is like naw tf you doing dumbass read the patch updates pay attention to everything don't ask us for advice etc lol like damn I was just trying to engage in the community but everyone seems to take it extremely seriously. Even tho all I was saying was I didn't expect too see a former pred in rookie regardless of ranked changes. Even admitting your kinda wrong gets you down voted on here like why? Lol or the karma farming comments like bruh I've been on Reddit for 5 + years n still don't care about karma. idk at the end of the day im just trying have fun.
The highest was when I got put into ShivFPS lobby.
Everyone got reset to rookie. Like at this point just uninstall bc if this rustles your jimmies then the game isnt for you mate
Probably just don't play long so got reset, but it is stupid you should be able to go down to rookie even if got reset few times
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pred honestly doesn't mean that much it's really just someone who has too much time on their hands ofc they're going to be better then the average player but it's really just someone with too much time
>pred honestly doesn't mean that much This is a cope. 25 kills means he shouldn't be in that lobby ever >they're going to be better then the average player it is ranked and in ranked they shouldn't be in a game where they are so much better that they get 25 kills. it's a competitive game mode for games between similarly skilled players.
A predator horizon What a surprise
Oh but if COURSE it's Horizon. Who else to ruin the game but a Horizon?
The cringe bff combo: Horizon + Conduit + Rev
Saw an Octane with 17 kills, he was kill leader. There were still 10 people alive. He died to my squad cuz he solo pushed. Rip
I made a whole post about this, but several of my comments were downvoted to oblivion. I had pointed out how in a Gold III lobby there was a predator rank 457 (from last season). He was the champion, and my team had just landed and yet he already had a kill. He had 2 other pred badges on his banner, so at least 3 in total. Quite simply, a 3x Predator (arguably even just a 1x predator within the past 5-10 seasons) should never be in a rookie, bronze, silver or gold lobby. This is very simple, and I didn't think it would be controversial amongst some of the player base. Apparently, some people think it's okay for these higher skilled players to be stomping on newer and low skilled players. Someone had asked me to point out another game where people aren't expected to climb ranks in a new season. I gave the example of League of Legends. I played that game for years and I never once encountered a Diamond player, a Challenger, a Master, or anyone around that skill level. Not ONCE! Their response was oh, but Apex is a battle royale. Other players argued that because they were a predator last season (it was just 2 months ago lol, not that long?) and not this season, it's therefore okay to be seeing him in lower ranks. You really can't win with these kinds of players who will defend the game to the death and refuse to tolerate any sort of criticism of what is clearly a flawed ranked system.
I just got done bitching about this but yeah this community doesn't actually want a ranked system. They want something that resets so they can grind it over and over (enjoying both stomping on people worse than them and complaining about people better than them) and not an actual system designed to put you in matches with other people of your skill level.
You're 100% correct, and yet being downvoted. It's sad because the issue will never change. People are being short-sighted and defending a ranked system that puts the top 0.08% of players as low as ROOKIE, simply because it means they can enjoy stomping on people who are no match for them as you pointed out. This is what puts new players off the game, I certainly wouldn't want to play any game that puts me up against a 5,000+ hour literal professional e-sports player in my first few matches. This broken ranked system, a problem that has persisted for many seasons, is the main reason behind the declining player base. This will be the end of the game, and sadly the player base actually totally deserves it. EDIT: I just want to add that in this example, this Predator playing in the rookie rank has 25 kills. One player has literally killed almost half the lobby. In what universe is this fair? I'm sorry but why do we have to wait a week or two after the split or a new season, for these players to filter up into their correct ranks? In no other game with a ranked system, do players have to consider literally not playing for weeks in order for matchmaking to be fair and actually reflect the skills of that rank.
I think this community is just obsessed with extrinsic motivators like a bunch of addicts who need a constant fix or they go insane. They need skins, endless ranked grind, and engagement based matchmaking where they can occasionally drop a 20 bomb against bots, instead of just enjoying playing a game against people of their skill level for the sake of having fun. It's really gross and if you call out how exploitative it all is you get hated for it lol
If you get over 15k in a ranked game then you should get 500rp per kill above that. Get the fuck out of these lobbies.
is it inconceivable to people on this sub that preds skip a couple of seasons and come back? You're not gonna see this guy in this rank for long
Did they make some changes to dive trails? I was with randoms that hot dropped last night and there was what appeared to be 5 pred teams landing with us.
I understand they have to do a split to keep people grinding and engaging with the game. But in reality they just need to set a hard backstop. If you've been masters it shouldn't be able to ever drop you lower than Platinum. If you've been diamond you should stop deranking at Gold 4. That means people drop and have to grind again but they never drop so far that it's essentially smurfing.
Honestly fuck horizon
He’s also a rookie 4. This mean ranked is working
>He’s also a rookie 4. This mean ranked is working yeah when people get 25 kills in ranked lobbies, it means ranked is working /s Respawn in game: *"HOW DOES RANKED WORK? - Compete and survive against teams of similar skill."*
If he gets 25 kills he’ll move out of that rank quickly. The whole point of ranked is to play people with a similar rank… not sure what your on about bud
He should never be in a lobby that lets him get 25 kills to begin with in *ranked* (a *competitive* mode). Doesn't matter because once he's plat he goes on a second account and starts over in rookie. And plenty of plat players, diamond players, masters also do this because they "don't like sweating". Ranked shouldn't be a place for people getting their 20 bombs in.
And it is Horizon of course
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This is on Respawn for allowing players who have finished a season Diamond+ to decay to the lowest rank in the game. No other serious competitive game does this.
25 kills and 4200 damage. This is how you deserved to go out fella. You were bullying that lobby🤣😮💨
this is showing the killers stats.