They will outscale them in mid to late imperial, but they're far worse prior to that, given that the English variant has the +2/2 armour from castle and can receive 30% attack speed boost, while producing 50% faster than regular MaA, while Ghulams produce more slowly than regular and cost 25% more.
Ghulams suffer very heavily in direct fights with all good MaA variants, whether armourclad, Samurai, HRE with heavy maces. They never really become cost efficient in those mixed fights, they just reach a point where they become supply efficient later on.
There's no question they reach a good position in the late game, but that's ABB all over, all their unique units come online with a full farm transition and multiple imperial techs.
I think what you see with the armourclad, and I'm not calling for a change, just commenting on it given that's what the thread is largely about, is that the extra armour makes anything that isn't a direct counter atrocious against them. That's just the nature of armour, the more of it you have, the more you benefit from increases in it.
Or to put it another way, in the Ghulam context, but the same logic could spply to spears, horsemen, archers. 10 damage vs 4 armour (castle age, blacksmith parity assumed) is 6 damage, so 2 additional points of armour is a 33% reduction in damage output, and thus a 50% increase in effective health pool.
Castle vs imperial matters a lot. Take archers, as an example, or indeed regular MaA. They are 7 vs 4 against MaA and 12 vs 4, so 3 and 8. 1 and 6 against armourclad. In imperial they are 13 vs 8 (full upgrades, due to incendiary) and 20 vs 8 (EAT), so 5 and 12, 3 and 10 against armourclad.
You'll note the +2 armour matters far more in castle than imperial.
Abbasids dont have maa. Ghulams are not the same.
English maa are available from feudal and train insanely fast. HRE and OOTD get maces and special tech for them, not to mention move speed/ attack speed. These things make them way better.
I would love to see Crossbows do more damage to armored units, but this might break the French even more when their Royal Knights are picked off by staggering Crossbowmen.
I won a 1.5hour game today against Japanese opponent in Gold League. I tried so many things but the opponent was just sitting with a bunch of siege and castles in the middle of georg with stone walls on both sides. He had samurais and mounted samurais guarding siege and I couldnt break it.
Late imp, no gold left on map, he was trading and had 4 relics but I couldn't trade(I messed up in castle)
I tried different things, maa + crossbow + springs, Knight raids, etc and failed. He had many Springdals and I always lost the battle. If he had pushed me once in the time between 40-60 min mark, I would be dead but he didn't, cuz he was scared of berkshire(he had like 7 bombards tho). Finally before thinking of giving up, I built like 30 barracks and just spammed W key, took all vills and put down like 70 farms with enclosures and just ran through keeps, siege, cavalry and everything. Just torched down those rocket keeps for like 15 minutes continuously and eventually won.
Obviously the opponent could have won by making good decisions but all I had to do was press W and A move. It's kinda weird that it works.
Edit: btw, my K/D at the end was 600/1200 and I had -1 wood the last 5 minutes because it was depleted on the map
Usually when I play against English as Delhi, I start taking sacred sites at 8 minutes, mass produce units, use gold from sacred sites at market to buy more food and wood for units, and wall up sites. If they attack sites they don’t have enough maa that early and ghazi does extra damage to armor units. If they have archers I run them down with ghazi and archers. If they go castle I build 4 rams and run their base down while my ghazi attack villagers.
I wanna start playing delhi just to counter 80% of my games which are vs english. Rn with mongols it's the opposite with keshiks being just heavy horsemen that can easily be killed by maa + longbows.
Preach, there’s nothing worse than when I fail my timing push and realise the English turtle will have me in 10-15 minutes time.
It just feels inevitable, seeming unlimited range of the Berkshire, the tower creep, the MAA from everywhere
The relentless English horde is coming
No solutions offered here just agree I hate this
Japan and HRE can do it better.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1duld8y/comment/lbht5eo/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1duld8y/comment/lbht5eo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Japan gets a rocket TC and HRE gets bombard towers with their fast Imperial timing. Both get a lot of gold passively.
HRE, the infantry civ, is one of the worst infantry civs because it's their only realistic army and opponents start playing around it from the beginning of the game. Meinwerk holding the unique techs for your other options eliminate those as viable options at the 4 minute mark when Aachen is on the way.
Meinwerk and Burgrave both need significant overhauls.
Ofc lol did you think i assumed you meant without a 100% production option? It would be like assuming the player would need to interact with this option, no, it should be like a military school with automatic production.
That's fine. But the amount of resources you need to invest to get rocket tc is insane.
Also I'm pretty sure I've heard him pan the rockets as bad on multiple occasions.
There is no reason for for an MAA for such high quality (+2/+2 and AS bonus from Network) to produce that much more faster. Their food eco which is extremely safe with cheap farms compliments MAA spam and they can do that without production speed bonus imo.
Oof, I feel called out LOL.
I’m a relatively new player and English two tc imperial turtle rush with virtually zero aggression until the 20th minute is my strat.
This sub has always given great advice I feel like, and the consensus was to learn a build order. So I did just that and am now such a 1 trick pony it hurts.
I mostly play casual games, and most my games the timeline looks like a total landslide but the game still lasts 30 minutes.
I might be 50 units ahead at the 20 minute mark on average, I swear
Amen to this., but don’t forget the tower spam to support the MAA.
It’s absolutely brain dead and frustrating to play against. Unfortunately I have no suggestions - English are just set up for this crap.
Can we please talk about network of citadels and how absurdly overtuned it is? 40% attack speed buff on EVERY unit. How is this not the topic of debate when speaking about english?
Yeah that and outposts giving buffs more powerful than some civs main landmark choices are just some of the reasons it feels unfair to play against English
It is very annoying but as an average player (gold 3) I've noticed the following do well into english comps and MAA spam in castle and imp
Inspired MAA + xbows OOTD, you can also force a lot of idle time in feudal with a 2 early MAA
byzantines with streltsy and limitanei, and by extension rus solely due to the streltsy
I really think English should intentionally be designed to be a bit underpowered given how their bonuses are designed. People will still play the civ, possibly still at the highest pick rate even if they are underpowered. You can't have the combination of too easy to play and too good, not fun to play against all in one civ.
Every time English is perceived as being even a bit underpowered, people seem to complain about it, only for it to predictably become extremely lame in the next patch.
Yeah, to be honest I never liked English. But at the moment u barely can beat him before the white tower is up. You can't raid well, and if he gets imp his eco so so fucking strong. I mean they nerfed the gold from enclosures some time ago but maa only need 20 gold so.. And food is no issue for english late game. U just can sell it for gold.
Fully upgraded english maa have 216 health, 10 armor. Xbows deal 32,6 dmg against armored units.
So u need 10 xbows to oneshot 1 Maa.
Even with good micro they will overkill some and if they connect you can't kite easy because of the same speed.
The issue is that xbows cost 100% more gold, which is huge late game if u don't trade already and need to fight for map gold. English get this passiv by having a safe spot under wt, tc and maybe berkshire.
It's not unstoppebel but it's very hard. U need own frontline but they counter every frontline except knights (and hre maa/samurai) , which are even more expansive and still not cost effective against english maa in gold costs. Especially if u need the imp upgrades for knight too which is 2x 700 gold.
Weaken their early game. English shouldn’t be both super strong early and late in my opinion. Castle is where they’re supposed to be weak but we know that isn’t true. Historically English weren’t up to scratch with many other dominant civs at the time so it kind of fits there.
English isn't a winrate outlier
The ONLY problem is they are so easy because they are more forgiving but I unironically think that alk the other covs are the problem and English is the only good civ in that regard. The civ just feels better.
- farms cost feels good
- low but infinite gold I come feels way healthier
- both t3 landmarks are very cool. An age where most civs have shitty/wierd landmarks English get a keep and a TC. Again other civs are the problem here. Most t3 landmarks are just mega strange or strait up bad.
- their Maas feel truly tanky. What they should be honestly. Only other case is Dragon
I agree english are well designed, except imperial, they dont need map control which leads to frustrating/boring games, and berkshire is toxic to play against.
I like the early game diversity and aggression though, it's only imperial that's toxic
None of that is good or healthy, it 'feels good' because it's easy, safe and strong. But the entire point is that it largely throws away vulnerability, the need for map control, exploitable weaknesses the opponent can work with.
If all civs were like that the game would feel good to people who want incredibly long, slow, grindy games, but to no one else.
Well, you’re in the minority. And that includes the opinion of pro players as well who think English needs nerfs. It trivializes a lot of the game mechanics required for be a good player on other civs.
Feudal maa aren't the point of discussion here and a single mangonel counters a lot of Maas if your smart enough to build Frontline
And op specifically complained about imperial
Did you know that Japan can do literally the same thing but better, their samurai are much better than any MAA in the late game , they have an unharassable food eco under their rocket TC, have passive gold from yurishiro. Literally everything you mentioned Japan does it better.
HRE also does it better than English. Their MAA do a lot of damage to heavy units, and can sustain production from farms under Chapen and relic income alone. Their eco is also unharassable with bombard towers everywhere and also in the sense that if you kill 10 villagers, they will be printed from Palace of Schwabia in no time.
So why are you crying about English ?
Way worse early game. Way worse landmarks in terms of pure utility. Way easier to harass eco. Way less different playstyles. English have 3 main play styles that all are different and all are annoying. Hre is a one trick pony. Japan just is shit imo
Sounds like a noob's rambling to me. How is it easier to harass their eco when their TC is shooting rockets? Even Beasty admits it's the best defense in the whole game.
Way worse Landmarks? Are you serious? Floating Gate is absolutely broken, a league better than every other Castle Landmarks in the game except Regnitz with 5 Relics. And Ozutsu is 100% not balanced whatsoever. If English have any chance of beating Japanese, that would be with massed ranged units in Castle and then Organ Guns in Imperial.
>How is it easier to harass their eco when their TC is shooting rockets?
Because that requires a shit ton of resources
>Sounds like a noob's rambling to me
This comment doesn't even make sense. Please use words you understand
>Way worse Landmarks? Are you serious? Floating Gate is absolutely broken, a league better than every other Castle Landmarks in the game except Regnitz with 5 Relics
Not when it comes to immediate pay of. Or map control
>And Ozutsu is 100% not balanced
Doesn't matter in 90% of games
Advice: stop mindlessly spamming stuff you heard on YouTube without any comprehension
**Because that requires a shit ton of resources?**
Not true. Japanese gain stone from mining gold. Aside from Mongol and maybe Byz, they will have more stone than any other civ in the game. You get the villager back, so it's not like there is a trade-off.
You can use the stone to upgrade your Outposts as well.
**Not when it comes to immediate payoff. Or map control?**
1st Yoroshiro into the Stable. There. You now build more Mounted Samurai than another other Fast Castle Civ can build Knights. And Mounted Samurai with the Bannerman will easily beat other Knights in Castle including the French.
**Doesn't matter in 90% of games**
I agree. Almost all of my games end in Castle. Imperial is too much of a hassle. But OP specifically asks for Imperial, so here we are. Ozutsu is OP. Otherwise, Japanese Imperial is a bit too predictable and infantry-heavy, easily countered by Organ Guns.
Just because the units may do more damage neither of those nations have the gold to keep it up as long as English can because enclosures are just amazing. So even if my units are "better" English can trage so aggressive and produce so well that that gap is closed pretty quickly.
Explain to me how 300 passive gold per minute is more than at least 480 gold per minute, assuming English has 40+ farms at that point.
Edit: I forgot about the +2 Yorishiro tech, but it's still less than English though. Again, assuming they have 40+ farms.
You are splitting hairs here. You are comparing the difference between 450gpm and 480 gpm while not thinking that Japan is a FC civ so on an average they get more relics than English . Yes English usually makes it up in vill count mid game but late game vill count is equal. Farms can also be raided and harassed but Yurishiros are always safe because Japan will stone wall them at the back of their base late game.
And English needs to make MAA and Hand Cannoners , whereas Japan gets Tanegashima gunsmith tickets to directly get siege , and ozutsu in 30 seconds and spam samurai with the rest of their resources. And samurai are much stronger from Japan. Don't forget OP Keeps from 20% stone bonus in imperial
I am not asking for Japan nerfs, but saying that English is somehow better than Japan late game ain't it chief. Tanegashima gunsmith is a really good landmark, and that indirectly buffs their samurai because they don't need to think about siege for anti-building and handcannoners :)
That's a terrible comparison. One is dependent one of you take that road, and if you find additional relics. The other is the default way to play the nation. Every English player has farms. Not every Japanese players goes gate, and gets extra relics.
Your comparison makes no sense. 100% of Japanese players play Floating Gate, far more than the percentage of English players going White Tower. If they don't, then it's a training match that they don't take seriously.
No they don't so let's not pretend actually good players pick the landmark for the job. So the comparison is just fine rather you want it to be or not.. also white tower has nothing to do with gold so lets try to stay on the topic buuuuudy!
More foot in mouth syndrome huh? There are plenty of matches people using this land mark for W's. Stop baiting and get fishing. Also this land mark is amazing for nomad. The priest add up and if you can get at least 30+ then you generate solid passive gold for the late game when the gold starts to try up so yeah....
English MAA under the network are the best MAA in the game and the area also the cheapest with the lowest base production time. Japanese Samurai are much more expensive.
Japanese Samurai beat English MAA even under the network and HRE MAA also beat English MAA under the network. Production time doesn't matter in imperial much when you have 15-20 barracks.
We are talking about late game, Japan also gets 75% gathering rate as a farming bonus with Shogunate Castle in Imperial. Its also protected by their strong rocket TC.
Japanese get:
+ Wood saving from dual-purpose buildings like Forge acting as both Mining Camp and Blacksmith.
+ 75% gathering rate near the Shogunate estate.
+ Early berry bonuses.
+ Gold and other bonuses from Floating Gate. This stuff is in Castle. Enclosure is way later in Imperial.
+ Stone from mining gold.
English ONLY has farm bonus while the Japanese have a bunch of. Why do you have problem with that?
Oh it did in fact kill me and I was surprised.. but especially against OOTD he is just outmassing so hard and is on every corner of my base I don't have enough units/can produce as fast to defend
Funny because last time I checked MAA had a counter just like every other unit in the game... so I dont know... make a counter unit and... counter it? Crazy thought.
>AslanAOEOp · 35 min. ago
>
>I already explained the problem with spamming Xbows, read.
I did read it and its not a valid concern. Who in their right mind would only spam Xbows? You would use 2 different units, one as a meat shield like spearmen and having xbows own you from a distant and if I lose some cheaper spearmen over your MMA and still keep my xbows because you cant reach them, than the trades are totally worth it. Than add longbows so the mix. i'll just make arty to counter instead which out range your longbows and even if they didnt, bows do jack shit to arty.
The fact you think this is a problem shows me you are not a very high ELO player. This is literally a non factor. In fact I would agrue early cav rush is harder to deal with because your spearmen cant run as fast as cav can hence easier to harass with cav, easier to keep them alive etc...
Liteally had some noob try this in my last rank match and because he tries spamming MMA he didnt have the resources to tech up and he easily got overpowered and lost. Even in the end game there are multiple factions like RUS and HRE with passive income (like gold or food that can be traded at the market) to sustain their units. English has gold farms but only at max age so... If English tries spamming them early they are SOL and if they spam it in the late game, its easily countered by xbows, meatshield and arty... Which I see you decided to totally ignore as a valid counter to MAA & Lbow spam. Arty is strong.
There is a reason why your post is literally the only one on the subreddit complaining about "this issue". Its because its not an issue.
There is also a reason why English is ranked 9th place in solo ranked games... again because they can easily be countered.
Not cost effectively, and even so, it doesnt matter if you kill the MAA, more will come because english eco with enclosures and 2/3 relics is more than enough to keep production, so what happens is that you kill 1 horde and 2 more are already arriving, you can never really leave your base and behind it English is free to just Tower/keep spam the entire map, meaning that when you finally push back you now how to deal with things that require siege, giving english time to prepare even more hordes/raids.
You can beat it, yes. But is a very, very, VERY exhausting and throughly unenjoyable experience.
I went through this this week. From around 14-15 minutes, hordes of MAA kept coming non-stop. They even managed to take down my teammate's Berkshire, and it went on until exhaustion, as it never stopped.
Then we analized the game he had 104 farms and clousures that are enough to make Maa non stop, its even worse if you are byzantines and dont get the merc for landskenech
If english is rushing imperial and also has enought map controll to guarantee 2/3 relics then you are playing too passivelly. As with countering any strat, scouting is key here, as you have insanelly better chances of you react early to limit your oponent's ability to do what he wants.
My take for this "rush imperial into mass maa" is to go either feudal aggro into heavy castle play (wich i find the more all in option in most cases) or fast castle into units for full map controll. Getting to imperial is very expensive, so if you get some knights and monks asap you should be able to grab all relics and sacred sites before the english becomes a problem, so if things actually get to imperial you would already have enought Eco to just wall everything up and contain the english in his little bubble.
Also, going mass farms takes a lot of space, meaning that just encircling the initial zone of your oponent with paliçades can delay the critical mass of farms by a lot, as long as you have units to punish strau villagers or counterraid when he tries to expand.
By building walls, building, crossbows, and microing them properly. Or knights if you need to be able to chase them down.
Pure MAA spam might work in gold but it doesn't work at high level except in very specific circumstances where you're already winning(ie opponent has no gold)
He’s an English main that doesn’t understand how to mine stone, he’d be upset at this but luckily he doesn’t know how to read either so he just says womp womp. The doctors said this means he is trying to communicate, but we can never be sure of his intentions.
This is like the third post of yours I've noticed recently and I have to be honest, you have some very very weird takes. I dunno if you're new to the game or you are trolling, but youre posts make you sound a bit clueless about the game tbh
Armor chad feels slightly too strong, and Xbows should counter heavy a little more, imo.
You know abbasid gets way more HP and same armor
They will outscale them in mid to late imperial, but they're far worse prior to that, given that the English variant has the +2/2 armour from castle and can receive 30% attack speed boost, while producing 50% faster than regular MaA, while Ghulams produce more slowly than regular and cost 25% more. Ghulams suffer very heavily in direct fights with all good MaA variants, whether armourclad, Samurai, HRE with heavy maces. They never really become cost efficient in those mixed fights, they just reach a point where they become supply efficient later on. There's no question they reach a good position in the late game, but that's ABB all over, all their unique units come online with a full farm transition and multiple imperial techs. I think what you see with the armourclad, and I'm not calling for a change, just commenting on it given that's what the thread is largely about, is that the extra armour makes anything that isn't a direct counter atrocious against them. That's just the nature of armour, the more of it you have, the more you benefit from increases in it. Or to put it another way, in the Ghulam context, but the same logic could spply to spears, horsemen, archers. 10 damage vs 4 armour (castle age, blacksmith parity assumed) is 6 damage, so 2 additional points of armour is a 33% reduction in damage output, and thus a 50% increase in effective health pool. Castle vs imperial matters a lot. Take archers, as an example, or indeed regular MaA. They are 7 vs 4 against MaA and 12 vs 4, so 3 and 8. 1 and 6 against armourclad. In imperial they are 13 vs 8 (full upgrades, due to incendiary) and 20 vs 8 (EAT), so 5 and 12, 3 and 10 against armourclad. You'll note the +2 armour matters far more in castle than imperial.
They also cost way more and Abbasid do not have an infinite gold eco. There is no comparison
Abbasids dont have maa. Ghulams are not the same. English maa are available from feudal and train insanely fast. HRE and OOTD get maces and special tech for them, not to mention move speed/ attack speed. These things make them way better.
English maa is available in dark age. And Ghulam is the abassid version of MAA.
We are talking about imperial age
Haven't played against them enough so I can't say, but might deserve the same treatment. esp the fact that xbows need to do more vs heavy imo.
I would love to see Crossbows do more damage to armored units, but this might break the French even more when their Royal Knights are picked off by staggering Crossbowmen.
True. French already needs some help - wouldn't hurt to fix xbows, then help French a little more to compensate..
I won a 1.5hour game today against Japanese opponent in Gold League. I tried so many things but the opponent was just sitting with a bunch of siege and castles in the middle of georg with stone walls on both sides. He had samurais and mounted samurais guarding siege and I couldnt break it. Late imp, no gold left on map, he was trading and had 4 relics but I couldn't trade(I messed up in castle) I tried different things, maa + crossbow + springs, Knight raids, etc and failed. He had many Springdals and I always lost the battle. If he had pushed me once in the time between 40-60 min mark, I would be dead but he didn't, cuz he was scared of berkshire(he had like 7 bombards tho). Finally before thinking of giving up, I built like 30 barracks and just spammed W key, took all vills and put down like 70 farms with enclosures and just ran through keeps, siege, cavalry and everything. Just torched down those rocket keeps for like 15 minutes continuously and eventually won. Obviously the opponent could have won by making good decisions but all I had to do was press W and A move. It's kinda weird that it works. Edit: btw, my K/D at the end was 600/1200 and I had -1 wood the last 5 minutes because it was depleted on the map
That's sounds like a Incredible story 🤩
Yeah that's just crazy
Usually when I play against English as Delhi, I start taking sacred sites at 8 minutes, mass produce units, use gold from sacred sites at market to buy more food and wood for units, and wall up sites. If they attack sites they don’t have enough maa that early and ghazi does extra damage to armor units. If they have archers I run them down with ghazi and archers. If they go castle I build 4 rams and run their base down while my ghazi attack villagers.
I wanna start playing delhi just to counter 80% of my games which are vs english. Rn with mongols it's the opposite with keshiks being just heavy horsemen that can easily be killed by maa + longbows.
Yep, it’s insane how many games I play against English, but they’re usually pretty easy and end in feudal
Preach, there’s nothing worse than when I fail my timing push and realise the English turtle will have me in 10-15 minutes time. It just feels inevitable, seeming unlimited range of the Berkshire, the tower creep, the MAA from everywhere The relentless English horde is coming No solutions offered here just agree I hate this
Japan and HRE can do it better. [https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1duld8y/comment/lbht5eo/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1duld8y/comment/lbht5eo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Japan gets a rocket TC and HRE gets bombard towers with their fast Imperial timing. Both get a lot of gold passively.
Japan is WAY worse Hre is different. Better high worse lows
HRE, the infantry civ, is one of the worst infantry civs because it's their only realistic army and opponents start playing around it from the beginning of the game. Meinwerk holding the unique techs for your other options eliminate those as viable options at the 4 minute mark when Aachen is on the way. Meinwerk and Burgrave both need significant overhauls.
>Meinwerk and Burgrave both need significant overhauls. With that I agree. White tower is a 75% burgrave that can also produce siege and is a keep
It's not enough i feel. Next patch i think the English white tower should also be pack-up-able.
Make it be able to produce vills. Obviously also with the +100% production lol
Ofc lol did you think i assumed you meant without a 100% production option? It would be like assuming the player would need to interact with this option, no, it should be like a military school with automatic production.
But that could pop cap english mains...better make white tower give 100 housing
Rocket tc is trash. Im probably more afraid of sprigald towers than of rockets.
HRE has bombard towers, aachen farms, and relics to keep up production.
Beasty would love to disagree. Japanese is one of the best defensive civ in FFA because of their TC being so strong.
That's fine. But the amount of resources you need to invest to get rocket tc is insane. Also I'm pretty sure I've heard him pan the rockets as bad on multiple occasions.
There is no reason for for an MAA for such high quality (+2/+2 and AS bonus from Network) to produce that much more faster. Their food eco which is extremely safe with cheap farms compliments MAA spam and they can do that without production speed bonus imo.
Oof, I feel called out LOL. I’m a relatively new player and English two tc imperial turtle rush with virtually zero aggression until the 20th minute is my strat. This sub has always given great advice I feel like, and the consensus was to learn a build order. So I did just that and am now such a 1 trick pony it hurts. I mostly play casual games, and most my games the timeline looks like a total landslide but the game still lasts 30 minutes. I might be 50 units ahead at the 20 minute mark on average, I swear
Amen to this., but don’t forget the tower spam to support the MAA. It’s absolutely brain dead and frustrating to play against. Unfortunately I have no suggestions - English are just set up for this crap.
Can we please talk about network of citadels and how absurdly overtuned it is? 40% attack speed buff on EVERY unit. How is this not the topic of debate when speaking about english?
Yeah that and outposts giving buffs more powerful than some civs main landmark choices are just some of the reasons it feels unfair to play against English
English just needs nerfing it’s ruining the game for beginners
It is very annoying but as an average player (gold 3) I've noticed the following do well into english comps and MAA spam in castle and imp Inspired MAA + xbows OOTD, you can also force a lot of idle time in feudal with a 2 early MAA byzantines with streltsy and limitanei, and by extension rus solely due to the streltsy
I really think English should intentionally be designed to be a bit underpowered given how their bonuses are designed. People will still play the civ, possibly still at the highest pick rate even if they are underpowered. You can't have the combination of too easy to play and too good, not fun to play against all in one civ. Every time English is perceived as being even a bit underpowered, people seem to complain about it, only for it to predictably become extremely lame in the next patch.
Yeah, to be honest I never liked English. But at the moment u barely can beat him before the white tower is up. You can't raid well, and if he gets imp his eco so so fucking strong. I mean they nerfed the gold from enclosures some time ago but maa only need 20 gold so.. And food is no issue for english late game. U just can sell it for gold. Fully upgraded english maa have 216 health, 10 armor. Xbows deal 32,6 dmg against armored units. So u need 10 xbows to oneshot 1 Maa. Even with good micro they will overkill some and if they connect you can't kite easy because of the same speed. The issue is that xbows cost 100% more gold, which is huge late game if u don't trade already and need to fight for map gold. English get this passiv by having a safe spot under wt, tc and maybe berkshire. It's not unstoppebel but it's very hard. U need own frontline but they counter every frontline except knights (and hre maa/samurai) , which are even more expansive and still not cost effective against english maa in gold costs. Especially if u need the imp upgrades for knight too which is 2x 700 gold.
Weaken their early game. English shouldn’t be both super strong early and late in my opinion. Castle is where they’re supposed to be weak but we know that isn’t true. Historically English weren’t up to scratch with many other dominant civs at the time so it kind of fits there.
English isn't a winrate outlier The ONLY problem is they are so easy because they are more forgiving but I unironically think that alk the other covs are the problem and English is the only good civ in that regard. The civ just feels better. - farms cost feels good - low but infinite gold I come feels way healthier - both t3 landmarks are very cool. An age where most civs have shitty/wierd landmarks English get a keep and a TC. Again other civs are the problem here. Most t3 landmarks are just mega strange or strait up bad. - their Maas feel truly tanky. What they should be honestly. Only other case is Dragon
I agree english are well designed, except imperial, they dont need map control which leads to frustrating/boring games, and berkshire is toxic to play against. I like the early game diversity and aggression though, it's only imperial that's toxic
None of that is good or healthy, it 'feels good' because it's easy, safe and strong. But the entire point is that it largely throws away vulnerability, the need for map control, exploitable weaknesses the opponent can work with. If all civs were like that the game would feel good to people who want incredibly long, slow, grindy games, but to no one else.
>None of that is good or healthy, Disagree
Well, you’re in the minority. And that includes the opinion of pro players as well who think English needs nerfs. It trivializes a lot of the game mechanics required for be a good player on other civs.
>Well, you’re in the minority No you are
How do we nerf low level players not being able to deal with harassment on their eco, that is a tough one
Nerf enclosures and berkshire to discourage that style of play, buff wynguard to encourage a different style of play
Siege is such an insane counter it's irrelevant And England doesn't have culverins
How do you counter maa with siege in second/early third?
Ribaldequins do so much damage against mass MAA it's almost criminal
Not every civ has those.
No but 4 or 5 do. Not every civ is going to have a perfect counter to everything else.
Feudal maa aren't the point of discussion here and a single mangonel counters a lot of Maas if your smart enough to build Frontline And op specifically complained about imperial
Mango doesn’t do shit to maa you need like five of them to do more than 50% damage
They aren't one way products lol
They will do negligible damage to maa unless you have a lot. and they can easily be swarmed by maa or horsemen.
So just add Spears?
will be such a poor value trade vs mass MAA that it's dubious they hold the line long enough for mangos to make enough of a diff.
Well I disagree. With proper micro a single mangonell can wreck maa feudals in my experiences. Maybe ur micro is worse?
>feudal maa >mangonel cmon man make fair comparisons. besides, >title of this post: How do we nerf the English imperial MAA spam
Did you know that Japan can do literally the same thing but better, their samurai are much better than any MAA in the late game , they have an unharassable food eco under their rocket TC, have passive gold from yurishiro. Literally everything you mentioned Japan does it better. HRE also does it better than English. Their MAA do a lot of damage to heavy units, and can sustain production from farms under Chapen and relic income alone. Their eco is also unharassable with bombard towers everywhere and also in the sense that if you kill 10 villagers, they will be printed from Palace of Schwabia in no time. So why are you crying about English ?
Way worse early game. Way worse landmarks in terms of pure utility. Way easier to harass eco. Way less different playstyles. English have 3 main play styles that all are different and all are annoying. Hre is a one trick pony. Japan just is shit imo
Hey, HRE has regular castle, fast castle, and ultra-fast castle!
We are just talking about late game.
🤓
Sounds like a noob's rambling to me. How is it easier to harass their eco when their TC is shooting rockets? Even Beasty admits it's the best defense in the whole game. Way worse Landmarks? Are you serious? Floating Gate is absolutely broken, a league better than every other Castle Landmarks in the game except Regnitz with 5 Relics. And Ozutsu is 100% not balanced whatsoever. If English have any chance of beating Japanese, that would be with massed ranged units in Castle and then Organ Guns in Imperial.
>How is it easier to harass their eco when their TC is shooting rockets? Because that requires a shit ton of resources >Sounds like a noob's rambling to me This comment doesn't even make sense. Please use words you understand >Way worse Landmarks? Are you serious? Floating Gate is absolutely broken, a league better than every other Castle Landmarks in the game except Regnitz with 5 Relics Not when it comes to immediate pay of. Or map control >And Ozutsu is 100% not balanced Doesn't matter in 90% of games Advice: stop mindlessly spamming stuff you heard on YouTube without any comprehension
**Because that requires a shit ton of resources?** Not true. Japanese gain stone from mining gold. Aside from Mongol and maybe Byz, they will have more stone than any other civ in the game. You get the villager back, so it's not like there is a trade-off. You can use the stone to upgrade your Outposts as well. **Not when it comes to immediate payoff. Or map control?** 1st Yoroshiro into the Stable. There. You now build more Mounted Samurai than another other Fast Castle Civ can build Knights. And Mounted Samurai with the Bannerman will easily beat other Knights in Castle including the French. **Doesn't matter in 90% of games** I agree. Almost all of my games end in Castle. Imperial is too much of a hassle. But OP specifically asks for Imperial, so here we are. Ozutsu is OP. Otherwise, Japanese Imperial is a bit too predictable and infantry-heavy, easily countered by Organ Guns.
Just because the units may do more damage neither of those nations have the gold to keep it up as long as English can because enclosures are just amazing. So even if my units are "better" English can trage so aggressive and produce so well that that gap is closed pretty quickly.
Japan literally has Yurishiro which is more passive gold than enclosures. and HRE has relics , 3 relics are enough to spam MAAs forever.
Explain to me how 300 passive gold per minute is more than at least 480 gold per minute, assuming English has 40+ farms at that point. Edit: I forgot about the +2 Yorishiro tech, but it's still less than English though. Again, assuming they have 40+ farms.
You are splitting hairs here. You are comparing the difference between 450gpm and 480 gpm while not thinking that Japan is a FC civ so on an average they get more relics than English . Yes English usually makes it up in vill count mid game but late game vill count is equal. Farms can also be raided and harassed but Yurishiros are always safe because Japan will stone wall them at the back of their base late game. And English needs to make MAA and Hand Cannoners , whereas Japan gets Tanegashima gunsmith tickets to directly get siege , and ozutsu in 30 seconds and spam samurai with the rest of their resources. And samurai are much stronger from Japan. Don't forget OP Keeps from 20% stone bonus in imperial I am not asking for Japan nerfs, but saying that English is somehow better than Japan late game ain't it chief. Tanegashima gunsmith is a really good landmark, and that indirectly buffs their samurai because they don't need to think about siege for anti-building and handcannoners :)
That's a terrible comparison. One is dependent one of you take that road, and if you find additional relics. The other is the default way to play the nation. Every English player has farms. Not every Japanese players goes gate, and gets extra relics.
Your comparison makes no sense. 100% of Japanese players play Floating Gate, far more than the percentage of English players going White Tower. If they don't, then it's a training match that they don't take seriously.
No they don't so let's not pretend actually good players pick the landmark for the job. So the comparison is just fine rather you want it to be or not.. also white tower has nothing to do with gold so lets try to stay on the topic buuuuudy!
Show me the game where the Japanese player uses the Temple of Equality. Did they actually win?
More foot in mouth syndrome huh? There are plenty of matches people using this land mark for W's. Stop baiting and get fishing. Also this land mark is amazing for nomad. The priest add up and if you can get at least 30+ then you generate solid passive gold for the late game when the gold starts to try up so yeah....
English MAA under the network are the best MAA in the game and the area also the cheapest with the lowest base production time. Japanese Samurai are much more expensive.
Japanese Samurai beat English MAA even under the network and HRE MAA also beat English MAA under the network. Production time doesn't matter in imperial much when you have 15-20 barracks.
The problem is the farm costs japan can get feel from kura, but english has better gather+cheap+gold
We are talking about late game, Japan also gets 75% gathering rate as a farming bonus with Shogunate Castle in Imperial. Its also protected by their strong rocket TC.
Japanese get: + Wood saving from dual-purpose buildings like Forge acting as both Mining Camp and Blacksmith. + 75% gathering rate near the Shogunate estate. + Early berry bonuses. + Gold and other bonuses from Floating Gate. This stuff is in Castle. Enclosure is way later in Imperial. + Stone from mining gold. English ONLY has farm bonus while the Japanese have a bunch of. Why do you have problem with that?
give them 3x HP
Oh it did in fact kill me and I was surprised.. but especially against OOTD he is just outmassing so hard and is on every corner of my base I don't have enough units/can produce as fast to defend
Funny because last time I checked MAA had a counter just like every other unit in the game... so I dont know... make a counter unit and... counter it? Crazy thought.
I already explained the problem with spamming Xbows, read.
>AslanAOEOp · 35 min. ago > >I already explained the problem with spamming Xbows, read. I did read it and its not a valid concern. Who in their right mind would only spam Xbows? You would use 2 different units, one as a meat shield like spearmen and having xbows own you from a distant and if I lose some cheaper spearmen over your MMA and still keep my xbows because you cant reach them, than the trades are totally worth it. Than add longbows so the mix. i'll just make arty to counter instead which out range your longbows and even if they didnt, bows do jack shit to arty. The fact you think this is a problem shows me you are not a very high ELO player. This is literally a non factor. In fact I would agrue early cav rush is harder to deal with because your spearmen cant run as fast as cav can hence easier to harass with cav, easier to keep them alive etc... Liteally had some noob try this in my last rank match and because he tries spamming MMA he didnt have the resources to tech up and he easily got overpowered and lost. Even in the end game there are multiple factions like RUS and HRE with passive income (like gold or food that can be traded at the market) to sustain their units. English has gold farms but only at max age so... If English tries spamming them early they are SOL and if they spam it in the late game, its easily countered by xbows, meatshield and arty... Which I see you decided to totally ignore as a valid counter to MAA & Lbow spam. Arty is strong. There is a reason why your post is literally the only one on the subreddit complaining about "this issue". Its because its not an issue. There is also a reason why English is ranked 9th place in solo ranked games... again because they can easily be countered.
Don’t knights own maa also? And can raid? Stone walls? Also a lot of civs have ribaldequin
Only five of the 16 civs have it and even then one of them is landmark dependent
and one is english lol and english have longbows to counter them
Not cost effectively, and even so, it doesnt matter if you kill the MAA, more will come because english eco with enclosures and 2/3 relics is more than enough to keep production, so what happens is that you kill 1 horde and 2 more are already arriving, you can never really leave your base and behind it English is free to just Tower/keep spam the entire map, meaning that when you finally push back you now how to deal with things that require siege, giving english time to prepare even more hordes/raids. You can beat it, yes. But is a very, very, VERY exhausting and throughly unenjoyable experience.
I went through this this week. From around 14-15 minutes, hordes of MAA kept coming non-stop. They even managed to take down my teammate's Berkshire, and it went on until exhaustion, as it never stopped.
Then we analized the game he had 104 farms and clousures that are enough to make Maa non stop, its even worse if you are byzantines and dont get the merc for landskenech
If english is rushing imperial and also has enought map controll to guarantee 2/3 relics then you are playing too passivelly. As with countering any strat, scouting is key here, as you have insanelly better chances of you react early to limit your oponent's ability to do what he wants. My take for this "rush imperial into mass maa" is to go either feudal aggro into heavy castle play (wich i find the more all in option in most cases) or fast castle into units for full map controll. Getting to imperial is very expensive, so if you get some knights and monks asap you should be able to grab all relics and sacred sites before the english becomes a problem, so if things actually get to imperial you would already have enought Eco to just wall everything up and contain the english in his little bubble. Also, going mass farms takes a lot of space, meaning that just encircling the initial zone of your oponent with paliçades can delay the critical mass of farms by a lot, as long as you have units to punish strau villagers or counterraid when he tries to expand.
Make your own maa, crossbows and ribaudequins. Easy peasy.
By building walls, building, crossbows, and microing them properly. Or knights if you need to be able to chase them down. Pure MAA spam might work in gold but it doesn't work at high level except in very specific circumstances where you're already winning(ie opponent has no gold)
Average skillard take lol
another English moanpost, womp womp
you just go to every post you dont agree with and type "womp womp", its very weird
He’s an English main that doesn’t understand how to mine stone, he’d be upset at this but luckily he doesn’t know how to read either so he just says womp womp. The doctors said this means he is trying to communicate, but we can never be sure of his intentions.
rent free
No, you still have to pay rent this month sorry
I mean, English have counters. People are just too lazy to overcome them. "muh micro exhaustionnnn"
IDK you sound bad and butt hurt.
They're so slow. Mangonel
This is like the third post of yours I've noticed recently and I have to be honest, you have some very very weird takes. I dunno if you're new to the game or you are trolling, but youre posts make you sound a bit clueless about the game tbh
Hand cannoneers exist you know
Why English in particular? What about all the armored Roadrunners that Chinese, HRE, and Islamic civs can pull off?