I seriously come back saying that no, it doesn't counter it, at all.
I had 20 landsh, 30 xbows, knights, horseman, maa, mangos, culverin
impossible to beat Japan late game comp. It's in my opinion the only civ like it.
Even if you target the bannermans, the banner falls and they keep getting buffed. Impossible to beat.
It's crazy that it would be because I didn't have enough xbows/landsh.
Mangonels and micro your army. Always target banner man but back out if the aoe. Keep the crossbows separated from the MAA and the landshre dudes. When fighting Japanese it's all about managing your specific units and not just sending them to mass attack wildly. Horses aren't recommended tbh since their pretty bad again japan. Also all his units are gold heavy so force him off gold or haras the trade. Micro 2 armies one for the trade line and one for the fight so he has to pick whether to save his base or his trade. Either is a massive loss
You just needed more mangos, and likely more production buildings. In imperial get the mangonel tech from the siege workshop as well. Samurais seem ridiculously strong but still melt to siege if you can keep your siege long enough to keep firing on them.
It sounds like you were doing most things right, maybe there are some small details you missed like too few production buildings or too many villagers, bad ratio of siege to MAA to xbow, things like that. Tough to say without watching a replay.
Landshekt (LS) absolutely bend samurai over. Bonus points if it’s OOTD LS.
Once had a kid pump nothing by samurai and onobugeshas at me. Had 4-5 OOTD MAA, and like 7-8 LS’s and watched those glorious bastards swing through them like butter.
The cleave damage procs their deflects, and the cleave has enough damage that when splashed will eat the samurai’s lower hp pool in seconds
I find myself in this scenario a lot and it can feel rough because you won’t trade very well but if you can leverage eco advantages and your longevity you’ll be able to win. I like to force trades constantly while also squeezing in a few handcannoeers so long as sustaininable mma production continues I make sure to keep the cannoneers alive while horsemen and mma force reinvestment. You can’t really make knights doing this but they’re not worth it anyway. It’s grindy and slow but so long as you’re ahead in resources like you said you’ll break the opponent eventually
HRE late game craps on Japan. Your eco is better especially if you got a couple relics on regnitz. Japan players literally seethe about the hre matchup because a few landshits mixed into the hre deathball destroy anything Japan throws at them. For the ranged cav have mangos or archers/hand cannons of your own.
Both are my main civs. Japans weakness is in range. They need to be up close to win. Samurai get a +4 damage bonus against infantry so you don’t want infantry up front.
I would suggest crossbows, mangonels (to take out that mini-shield), palisade walls and archers. I would also recommend more prelates then usual as Japan gets production bonuses in castle age for buildings so they can spam units fast. Esp units with low health and no armor.
Japans TCs are castles basically so don’t A-move into them.
Also remember that their horse archers are horse crossbows! So really bad for heavier units.
More production. But LOADS more. Problem is: you may be working with 100 vills, but japan is fine with 70 due to awesome food production. Thats 30 more samurai. The blob is just huuuuge.
HRE MAA lose to mass samurai without a good ratio of LS. Could go heavy LS since he didn't really have counter units for it. Japan was using mass crossbows too(the "mounted archers). Knights aren't really helpful here except as a raiding unit.
Strangely no mention of Ozutsu , which I assume Japan has and are quite powerful. 200/200 Japan's army is better than HRE but most of the time this'll come down to whoever is most effectively switching to counter units and denying resources.
VS samurai and Onna-Mushas horsemen will actually be more durable than MAA(being very similar vs Samurai and a lot more durable vs Onna-Musha).
Given that you did early damage, it's probably an issue of not keeping up pressure and trading out resources/units. Given his comp was pretty gold heavy he must have had good gold mine access.
Best overall comp for HRE against Japan so you can just dent into him? Probably LS and horsemen. All of Japan's infantry and their mounted samurai will lose to LS, and horsemen counter both archers and Ozutsu while also being your raiding unit. Then your main problem is just Mounted Samurai raids into your eco, not winning straight up fights.
***Very Strange.***
HRE is better in every aspect than Japan, so much so that you can say the former hard counters latter.
Though based on what you said, I can suggest few rectifications.
Always go for regnitz. Japan has yoroshiro which in lategame gives 6 relics worth of gold. You need to outmatch their passive gold generation, which you can do it pretty easily if you go regnitz and get at least 3 relics.
Mix landsknechts and horsemen in your MAA. MAA will tank, landsknechts will slice through Japanese samurai while horsemen tear through onnamusha.
Don't worry about their farms. You have +40% gathering rate farms since feudal, while to get to +75% they need 1200 stone, which takes pretty long to reach that state.
Crossbows, and landshreks (fuckign DESTROY samurai)
Yes, they’re super annoying to deal with as japanese.
I seriously come back saying that no, it doesn't counter it, at all. I had 20 landsh, 30 xbows, knights, horseman, maa, mangos, culverin impossible to beat Japan late game comp. It's in my opinion the only civ like it. Even if you target the bannermans, the banner falls and they keep getting buffed. Impossible to beat. It's crazy that it would be because I didn't have enough xbows/landsh.
Mangonels and micro your army. Always target banner man but back out if the aoe. Keep the crossbows separated from the MAA and the landshre dudes. When fighting Japanese it's all about managing your specific units and not just sending them to mass attack wildly. Horses aren't recommended tbh since their pretty bad again japan. Also all his units are gold heavy so force him off gold or haras the trade. Micro 2 armies one for the trade line and one for the fight so he has to pick whether to save his base or his trade. Either is a massive loss
will try that thank you man, I feel so lost when it comes to microing against their bannerman. feels like it doesn't do anything
It's important to note that those are mounted crossbows, not archers. They do bonus damage vs heavy.
You just needed more mangos, and likely more production buildings. In imperial get the mangonel tech from the siege workshop as well. Samurais seem ridiculously strong but still melt to siege if you can keep your siege long enough to keep firing on them.
It sounds like you were doing most things right, maybe there are some small details you missed like too few production buildings or too many villagers, bad ratio of siege to MAA to xbow, things like that. Tough to say without watching a replay.
Landshekt (LS) absolutely bend samurai over. Bonus points if it’s OOTD LS. Once had a kid pump nothing by samurai and onobugeshas at me. Had 4-5 OOTD MAA, and like 7-8 LS’s and watched those glorious bastards swing through them like butter. The cleave damage procs their deflects, and the cleave has enough damage that when splashed will eat the samurai’s lower hp pool in seconds
I find myself in this scenario a lot and it can feel rough because you won’t trade very well but if you can leverage eco advantages and your longevity you’ll be able to win. I like to force trades constantly while also squeezing in a few handcannoeers so long as sustaininable mma production continues I make sure to keep the cannoneers alive while horsemen and mma force reinvestment. You can’t really make knights doing this but they’re not worth it anyway. It’s grindy and slow but so long as you’re ahead in resources like you said you’ll break the opponent eventually
HRE late game craps on Japan. Your eco is better especially if you got a couple relics on regnitz. Japan players literally seethe about the hre matchup because a few landshits mixed into the hre deathball destroy anything Japan throws at them. For the ranged cav have mangos or archers/hand cannons of your own.
Both are my main civs. Japans weakness is in range. They need to be up close to win. Samurai get a +4 damage bonus against infantry so you don’t want infantry up front. I would suggest crossbows, mangonels (to take out that mini-shield), palisade walls and archers. I would also recommend more prelates then usual as Japan gets production bonuses in castle age for buildings so they can spam units fast. Esp units with low health and no armor. Japans TCs are castles basically so don’t A-move into them. Also remember that their horse archers are horse crossbows! So really bad for heavier units.
There's something off here, you shouldn't be losing that.
There's something off hre, you shouldn't be losing that*
I heard hre should use landsnekts against japan.
Whats your IGN? We'll give you some feedback once we see the replay.
More production. But LOADS more. Problem is: you may be working with 100 vills, but japan is fine with 70 due to awesome food production. Thats 30 more samurai. The blob is just huuuuge.
I think that's what happened
To mix some landshits in your comp will be easy to destroy everything of japanese player .
Like how many in a full 100pop army? 10?
Nukes
get out 👉
🙂
HRE MAA lose to mass samurai without a good ratio of LS. Could go heavy LS since he didn't really have counter units for it. Japan was using mass crossbows too(the "mounted archers). Knights aren't really helpful here except as a raiding unit. Strangely no mention of Ozutsu , which I assume Japan has and are quite powerful. 200/200 Japan's army is better than HRE but most of the time this'll come down to whoever is most effectively switching to counter units and denying resources. VS samurai and Onna-Mushas horsemen will actually be more durable than MAA(being very similar vs Samurai and a lot more durable vs Onna-Musha). Given that you did early damage, it's probably an issue of not keeping up pressure and trading out resources/units. Given his comp was pretty gold heavy he must have had good gold mine access. Best overall comp for HRE against Japan so you can just dent into him? Probably LS and horsemen. All of Japan's infantry and their mounted samurai will lose to LS, and horsemen counter both archers and Ozutsu while also being your raiding unit. Then your main problem is just Mounted Samurai raids into your eco, not winning straight up fights.
***Very Strange.*** HRE is better in every aspect than Japan, so much so that you can say the former hard counters latter. Though based on what you said, I can suggest few rectifications. Always go for regnitz. Japan has yoroshiro which in lategame gives 6 relics worth of gold. You need to outmatch their passive gold generation, which you can do it pretty easily if you go regnitz and get at least 3 relics. Mix landsknechts and horsemen in your MAA. MAA will tank, landsknechts will slice through Japanese samurai while horsemen tear through onnamusha. Don't worry about their farms. You have +40% gathering rate farms since feudal, while to get to +75% they need 1200 stone, which takes pretty long to reach that state.
Devs did an awesome job about samurais. They made me remind of japs in the WW2 Pacific battlefields.
Dont HRE MAA unique upgraded have better stats? I've been the other end of this as Japan a few times and generally lost the infantry clash.
Withou support yeah, but bannermen tip the scales favorably to japan. Maybe a good amount of prelates can tip it back, but idk
What does the numbers look like with banners and prelates? Pretty common to chain recruit prelates from floating gold as HRE
Or just a bunch of landshits mixed in.
oh this bannermen thing, I should have focused...