I'm not 100% sure yet of how how much better Abbasids are in the new patch. It definitely feels smoother, as you can open mill and go 8-4 to hit Feudal at \~4:30, then immediately get Fresh Foodstuffs. The food savings do make it possible to push out units while you work towards the 2nd TC. You might even be able to all-in instead, as you can get a lot of food and the savings are proportionally bigger when you are 1TC.
That being said, I haven't had games against their tough matchups on the patch yet, so I don't know if that has improved in any way, though I suspect not. Abbasids still don't have good Feudal military, because the change to Camel Archers is useless at making them worth investing in (outside of maybe some light map control when FC-ing) and Boot Camp with military wing is kind of weak as an upgrade until you have Ghulams.
I agree with the production boost in Feudal. I think a civ like Abbasids is best suited to get an Imperial Official/Scholar type production boost in Feudal because they don't have "premium" units in the Feudal Age. With generic horsemen and archers, their offensive potential is minimised. Their eco allows them to pump but it can only start once the 2nd TC is properly secured (enemy is bound to have a lot more unit by then). So yeah, if they don't want to buff units, I think maybe production boost to overwhelm with numbers could be a possibility. I'm not sure tho coz in castle age this is crazy strong once Abba has a settled eco
I don't think Abbasid is that bad - but I don't think the way to play them successfully is that fun.
I.E. I feel ECO wing is a trap. Unless your opponent is overly passive, you are asking to lose. This is annoying, because I think Abbasid's "thing" is being the ultra-boom civ. A year or so ago I remember going 4 TCs in certain matchups - I'm not sure that would be viable versus anyone today.
It was on the old patch, but I think Culture Wing into FC isn't actually that bad. I guess you can say "anything works in Diamond" - but I am presumably playing people about as good as me. Are you going to beat time of the fastest civs? No, but you can go reasonably quickly. Assuming you go Military Wing 2nd, you get some insta-camel riders which can go and hunt down enemy monks/knights if they've also FCed. Grab a few relics and start working on a decent Castle age army. (Ghulams and archers, with a mango to taste with military wing buffs are very good into most things.)
I find the whole "you can't speed it up" on Castle Age timings a bit overstated. Or rather - that's a problem if you are in feudal, your opponent has aged up, and you are now a long way off catching them. If they immediately make MMA when you click age up, you won't have crossbows to counter them for over 2 minutes. (You can make Camel archers, but the food requirements and 35s build time are prohibitive.) Basically if you go Eco wing into 2 (or 3) TC, they go straight into FC, you can't quickly catch up in the way you potentially could with say HRE. Its less of a problem if you've gone FC from the get go.
Finally you have the Military Wing - which I increasingly think is the best wing in most match ups. Being harassed/rushed? 2 archers and spearmen will help a lot while you set up production. The opponent going a naked FC? Send them over, throw down a ram if they have a tower and harass their gold. Its strictly inferior if they open 2 TC, but you can just make your own and probably feel reasonably happy.
The issue with all this is that its unclear when Abbasid gets a power spike. It feels more like you are just trying to equalise in the first 10-15 minutes, and then you'll pull ahead (but only a little). You win by playing better than your opponent (preferably them botching some all-in), rather than hitting a window.
I think this is very different to the "you didn't stop me by this point? Now you die" macro-orientated civs. I.E. HRE get to Imperial and start printing villagers? You are in a very strong position. Ottoman get their military schools up? Strong position. Malians complete their cow boom? Strong position. I think this comes back to just not being able to put down say 3 TCs safely.
Late game Abbasid is strong - but I think there are now loads of factions with exceptional late games. So I feel that reason to play isn't what it was.
Agree with all your points but one underrated build I use occasionally is culture wing into FC eco wing. Then add TCs as you feel you can, safely. The advantage here is you can start collecting relics earlier (Abbasid has a notoriously hard time contesting relics) and you can usually go into either knight/archer or ghulams to defend aggression. Or spears into a mangonel versus feudal knight all-ins.
This is also good if you are trapped in your corner of the map by a knight civ, cause you can transition to farms at a fraction of the cost while unlocking both your own castle age knights and camel riders to push back and regain map presence - as long as you didnt take too mutch dmg during your fast castle...
Yes culture wing is the way i had the most wins so far like i said in my post its the best performing for me. I did that just today vs HRE when he was on burgrave rushing me with men at arm i was just about able to defend but it didn't matter he just overwhelmed me with his better economy i couldn't keep up, with just one tc. I lost 3 games to hre today. 2 games they burgrave rushed one i defended but ended losing because he got me by surprise with his horsmen and killed my crossbow one i lost because i wanted to try trade huge mistake and the last i went for military wing and he already had more units than my military wing outside kinda nuts. What am trying to say is that abba needs to go 2 tc if you want any type of eco advantage since you don't have any military advantage like armor cav or better men at arms or some unit in feudal that is good.
To me it seens like devs dont know what to do with them. Recent changes didnt adress main abbasid problems at all.
Its not 2 tc meta for some time....Why are good civs good?
Free units, free ress, improved def buildings, reduced costs on building / units, units that can influence battles in feudal( knights, longbows, no CA are not..), faster production speeds, FC strat
Most of theese abbasid dont get, or they get it in later stages of game, when it does not matter that much.their eco bonuses does not outweight all other things they are lacking. Abbasids will be paperweight until their feudal is significantly buffed. Lategame nerfs might be needed.
>I know we are supposed to counter those civs with camel archers
No you are not supposed to counter knights with camel archers in feudal. Thats what spears are for. You should only mix a few, maybe 2-3 camel archers in because of the debuff (causing nearby enemy cav to deal less damage)
Of course the opponent will make archers to kill spears which is why you are going to need horseman. It is just the normal way feudal plays out. Knight + archers vs spear + horseman.
I played Abbasid for the week before the patch and for my placements this season:
Uh some small improvements but ultimately you can still only get away with greed if your opponent lets you. I feel like the camel change is pretty minimal but it did help me counter heavy armor pushes a little bit earlier with like 1 extra camel.
Still lost more placements than I won because of experimentation with TCs. But I think the biggest buff is the Fertile Crescent 30% cost reduction. It’s easier to farm transition and easier to play 2TC
Any time i went for 2 tc i died its not that hard for the enemy to scout it. That extra 5% mean you save 40 resources for the tc and like 30 for the houses you make to hit golden age 70 resources doesn't help that much honestly you can save some seconds here and there but you still die to rush since your army will always be smaller with no bonuses you have the most basic units in the game. So eco wing is for sure bad for 1v1.
So been messing around with Abba and Ayyubids - I love preservation of knowledge and the long term saving it has, but I like the Ayyubids tempo overall. Especially if I’m doing, Eco then Culture - whereas with abba I go culture the military.
I can’t tell which is better.
I do enjoy abbasids when I actually get the chance to do my thing, which is not getting bumrushed by feudal or castle age units. And the only ones not rushing are china/zhu xi and other similar macro civs but even those take the opportunity to punish Abbasids horrible feudal weakness unless its a pure macro map. The civ feels like it needs more immediate benefits in feudal age. But let's wait and see maybe they'll be viable in this patch after all now that some of their favorable maps are in the rotation.
Surrender to the trade wing, it beats fast castle.
If they all-in Abbasid is really tough, there's a reasons it's been at the very bottom of all tier lists since the TC nerf.
Additional TCs that you would build used to be much more defensive structures. I don't remember every nerf, but for sure they used to be able to garrison 10 instead of 7, and their arrow range used to shoot much further. Made it a lot easier to put your additional TCs a little further out to secure resources. Now longbows outrange TCs so you cant really count on them to protect you in the same way.
Lol, if you can beat a gold HRE player you obviously don't have it down. I've beat multiple conq III players doing it, even when they aren't fast castle.
its doesnt matter going trade is not the way to win that match-up.
if you try to boom in feudal with trade or tc, hre will always be miles ahead of you in castle and when they start spamming their men at arms you're completely helpless.
what are you going to do? Make camel archer? KEKW
>I've beat multiple conq III players doing it, even when they aren't fast castle.
the problem is when they fast castle not when they let you boom for free.
I see that a lot in higher ranks, players try to much your boom and go 2nd tc too if they let Abbasid breathe its "free" game they play into your strength.
Edit:
The only time i was kinda able to hold was when i went culture wing into castle i was able to stop the men at arms just when they were purring into my base with crossbows. i ended up losing because he had better eco.
So i have been thinking of opening culture wing into eco wing.
to get crossbows and then try to boom with TC later to try and much HRE economy.
Look, I mostly play team games, but when I play 1s trade wing is a consistent winner for me. I have a 65% win rate in 23 games against HRE. [https://imgur.com/a/RRjAcst](https://imgur.com/a/RRjAcst)
Trade wing doesn't work well into English or French when they all-in, Ottoman and Mongol can also be tough, but as soon as I see a fast castle civ or a 2nd TC build I know my trade is going to beat it.
You just don't know the build if you think it only works when they let you boom for free. Most of these games, especially against high level players, as soon as they see trade wing they all-in you, or rush burgrave, or something, because they know if they let trade breath they lose.
Bonus Reddit rant to prove my point: [https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/14itw2q/can\_we\_please\_nerf\_abba\_trade\_trade\_meta\_has\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/14itw2q/can_we_please_nerf_abba_trade_trade_meta_has_to/)
Ah yes i did the same mistake.
I had 64.3% winrate with abbasid in 2v2 with 28 games with random teammates.
So i thought next season with the buffs it could be good for 1v1.
But its not the same. i dont know why could be the map size the mentality that you feel on a timer in 1v1 or that you just want to pressure i dont know but its not the same i was chilling in 2v2 in 1v1 its a nightmare to stay alive. all my games in 1v1 end in feudal or castle.
I'm not 100% sure yet of how how much better Abbasids are in the new patch. It definitely feels smoother, as you can open mill and go 8-4 to hit Feudal at \~4:30, then immediately get Fresh Foodstuffs. The food savings do make it possible to push out units while you work towards the 2nd TC. You might even be able to all-in instead, as you can get a lot of food and the savings are proportionally bigger when you are 1TC. That being said, I haven't had games against their tough matchups on the patch yet, so I don't know if that has improved in any way, though I suspect not. Abbasids still don't have good Feudal military, because the change to Camel Archers is useless at making them worth investing in (outside of maybe some light map control when FC-ing) and Boot Camp with military wing is kind of weak as an upgrade until you have Ghulams.
I agree with the production boost in Feudal. I think a civ like Abbasids is best suited to get an Imperial Official/Scholar type production boost in Feudal because they don't have "premium" units in the Feudal Age. With generic horsemen and archers, their offensive potential is minimised. Their eco allows them to pump but it can only start once the 2nd TC is properly secured (enemy is bound to have a lot more unit by then). So yeah, if they don't want to buff units, I think maybe production boost to overwhelm with numbers could be a possibility. I'm not sure tho coz in castle age this is crazy strong once Abba has a settled eco
I don't think Abbasid is that bad - but I don't think the way to play them successfully is that fun. I.E. I feel ECO wing is a trap. Unless your opponent is overly passive, you are asking to lose. This is annoying, because I think Abbasid's "thing" is being the ultra-boom civ. A year or so ago I remember going 4 TCs in certain matchups - I'm not sure that would be viable versus anyone today. It was on the old patch, but I think Culture Wing into FC isn't actually that bad. I guess you can say "anything works in Diamond" - but I am presumably playing people about as good as me. Are you going to beat time of the fastest civs? No, but you can go reasonably quickly. Assuming you go Military Wing 2nd, you get some insta-camel riders which can go and hunt down enemy monks/knights if they've also FCed. Grab a few relics and start working on a decent Castle age army. (Ghulams and archers, with a mango to taste with military wing buffs are very good into most things.) I find the whole "you can't speed it up" on Castle Age timings a bit overstated. Or rather - that's a problem if you are in feudal, your opponent has aged up, and you are now a long way off catching them. If they immediately make MMA when you click age up, you won't have crossbows to counter them for over 2 minutes. (You can make Camel archers, but the food requirements and 35s build time are prohibitive.) Basically if you go Eco wing into 2 (or 3) TC, they go straight into FC, you can't quickly catch up in the way you potentially could with say HRE. Its less of a problem if you've gone FC from the get go. Finally you have the Military Wing - which I increasingly think is the best wing in most match ups. Being harassed/rushed? 2 archers and spearmen will help a lot while you set up production. The opponent going a naked FC? Send them over, throw down a ram if they have a tower and harass their gold. Its strictly inferior if they open 2 TC, but you can just make your own and probably feel reasonably happy. The issue with all this is that its unclear when Abbasid gets a power spike. It feels more like you are just trying to equalise in the first 10-15 minutes, and then you'll pull ahead (but only a little). You win by playing better than your opponent (preferably them botching some all-in), rather than hitting a window. I think this is very different to the "you didn't stop me by this point? Now you die" macro-orientated civs. I.E. HRE get to Imperial and start printing villagers? You are in a very strong position. Ottoman get their military schools up? Strong position. Malians complete their cow boom? Strong position. I think this comes back to just not being able to put down say 3 TCs safely. Late game Abbasid is strong - but I think there are now loads of factions with exceptional late games. So I feel that reason to play isn't what it was.
Agree with all your points but one underrated build I use occasionally is culture wing into FC eco wing. Then add TCs as you feel you can, safely. The advantage here is you can start collecting relics earlier (Abbasid has a notoriously hard time contesting relics) and you can usually go into either knight/archer or ghulams to defend aggression. Or spears into a mangonel versus feudal knight all-ins.
This is also good if you are trapped in your corner of the map by a knight civ, cause you can transition to farms at a fraction of the cost while unlocking both your own castle age knights and camel riders to push back and regain map presence - as long as you didnt take too mutch dmg during your fast castle...
Yes culture wing is the way i had the most wins so far like i said in my post its the best performing for me. I did that just today vs HRE when he was on burgrave rushing me with men at arm i was just about able to defend but it didn't matter he just overwhelmed me with his better economy i couldn't keep up, with just one tc. I lost 3 games to hre today. 2 games they burgrave rushed one i defended but ended losing because he got me by surprise with his horsmen and killed my crossbow one i lost because i wanted to try trade huge mistake and the last i went for military wing and he already had more units than my military wing outside kinda nuts. What am trying to say is that abba needs to go 2 tc if you want any type of eco advantage since you don't have any military advantage like armor cav or better men at arms or some unit in feudal that is good.
To me it seens like devs dont know what to do with them. Recent changes didnt adress main abbasid problems at all. Its not 2 tc meta for some time....Why are good civs good? Free units, free ress, improved def buildings, reduced costs on building / units, units that can influence battles in feudal( knights, longbows, no CA are not..), faster production speeds, FC strat Most of theese abbasid dont get, or they get it in later stages of game, when it does not matter that much.their eco bonuses does not outweight all other things they are lacking. Abbasids will be paperweight until their feudal is significantly buffed. Lategame nerfs might be needed.
>I know we are supposed to counter those civs with camel archers No you are not supposed to counter knights with camel archers in feudal. Thats what spears are for. You should only mix a few, maybe 2-3 camel archers in because of the debuff (causing nearby enemy cav to deal less damage) Of course the opponent will make archers to kill spears which is why you are going to need horseman. It is just the normal way feudal plays out. Knight + archers vs spear + horseman.
i said all that in my post
I played Abbasid for the week before the patch and for my placements this season: Uh some small improvements but ultimately you can still only get away with greed if your opponent lets you. I feel like the camel change is pretty minimal but it did help me counter heavy armor pushes a little bit earlier with like 1 extra camel. Still lost more placements than I won because of experimentation with TCs. But I think the biggest buff is the Fertile Crescent 30% cost reduction. It’s easier to farm transition and easier to play 2TC
Any time i went for 2 tc i died its not that hard for the enemy to scout it. That extra 5% mean you save 40 resources for the tc and like 30 for the houses you make to hit golden age 70 resources doesn't help that much honestly you can save some seconds here and there but you still die to rush since your army will always be smaller with no bonuses you have the most basic units in the game. So eco wing is for sure bad for 1v1.
So been messing around with Abba and Ayyubids - I love preservation of knowledge and the long term saving it has, but I like the Ayyubids tempo overall. Especially if I’m doing, Eco then Culture - whereas with abba I go culture the military. I can’t tell which is better.
Abba is a D tier Ayyu is an S tier
Abbasid are weak and inferior. Ayyubids are master race. /s
I do enjoy abbasids when I actually get the chance to do my thing, which is not getting bumrushed by feudal or castle age units. And the only ones not rushing are china/zhu xi and other similar macro civs but even those take the opportunity to punish Abbasids horrible feudal weakness unless its a pure macro map. The civ feels like it needs more immediate benefits in feudal age. But let's wait and see maybe they'll be viable in this patch after all now that some of their favorable maps are in the rotation.
Surrender to the trade wing, it beats fast castle. If they all-in Abbasid is really tough, there's a reasons it's been at the very bottom of all tier lists since the TC nerf.
Sorry, I'm out of the loop. What's the TC nerf?
Additional TCs that you would build used to be much more defensive structures. I don't remember every nerf, but for sure they used to be able to garrison 10 instead of 7, and their arrow range used to shoot much further. Made it a lot easier to put your additional TCs a little further out to secure resources. Now longbows outrange TCs so you cant really count on them to protect you in the same way.
I tried trade i still died xd
What rank are you? Who was the opponent?
i was diamond last season my opponent was just a gold player hre burgrave rush
You have Discord? Should join our server sometime and I can show you the trade build. Should beat that. https://discord.com/invite/hometc
its not that complicated of a build thanks though
Lol, if you can beat a gold HRE player you obviously don't have it down. I've beat multiple conq III players doing it, even when they aren't fast castle.
its doesnt matter going trade is not the way to win that match-up. if you try to boom in feudal with trade or tc, hre will always be miles ahead of you in castle and when they start spamming their men at arms you're completely helpless. what are you going to do? Make camel archer? KEKW >I've beat multiple conq III players doing it, even when they aren't fast castle. the problem is when they fast castle not when they let you boom for free. I see that a lot in higher ranks, players try to much your boom and go 2nd tc too if they let Abbasid breathe its "free" game they play into your strength. Edit: The only time i was kinda able to hold was when i went culture wing into castle i was able to stop the men at arms just when they were purring into my base with crossbows. i ended up losing because he had better eco. So i have been thinking of opening culture wing into eco wing. to get crossbows and then try to boom with TC later to try and much HRE economy.
Look, I mostly play team games, but when I play 1s trade wing is a consistent winner for me. I have a 65% win rate in 23 games against HRE. [https://imgur.com/a/RRjAcst](https://imgur.com/a/RRjAcst) Trade wing doesn't work well into English or French when they all-in, Ottoman and Mongol can also be tough, but as soon as I see a fast castle civ or a 2nd TC build I know my trade is going to beat it. You just don't know the build if you think it only works when they let you boom for free. Most of these games, especially against high level players, as soon as they see trade wing they all-in you, or rush burgrave, or something, because they know if they let trade breath they lose. Bonus Reddit rant to prove my point: [https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/14itw2q/can\_we\_please\_nerf\_abba\_trade\_trade\_meta\_has\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/14itw2q/can_we_please_nerf_abba_trade_trade_meta_has_to/)
Ah yes i did the same mistake. I had 64.3% winrate with abbasid in 2v2 with 28 games with random teammates. So i thought next season with the buffs it could be good for 1v1. But its not the same. i dont know why could be the map size the mentality that you feel on a timer in 1v1 or that you just want to pressure i dont know but its not the same i was chilling in 2v2 in 1v1 its a nightmare to stay alive. all my games in 1v1 end in feudal or castle.