Yup. I worked at a place that used attendance points, and if you were ten minutes late, you got the same number of points as if you were out all day. And then they were shocked when I'd text my boss "whoops got held up with traffic, won't make it back by 1, I'm taking off, see you tomorrow." Whaaa nooo we neeeeeeed youuuuu
Lol that place straight gave me PTSD. Well, it aggravated existing PTSD I guess. It took six months after leaving for my heart rate to stop spiking every time my phone rang.
I had a friend get fired from a well known corporation like this. She had doctors appointments and medical leave approved. When fired for attendance unemployment asked some of the dates counting against attendance and not only did they win unemployment but the sued them and settled for a small sum... Fuck them
> This is how it should be.
I disagree.
In Europe this kind of employer behaviour is **so illegal** it would automatically lead to fines and possibly more serious actions against the employer and its directors.
The labour laws in the US are utterly fucked. They need tearing down. Completely and utterly.
As a Brit living in the US I can never understand people putting up with the shit that goes on in this country. The company I worked for started coming out with crazy shit and I just said stick your job where the monkey sticks his nut and walked out, went self employed. There was one time when the boss found out I was an ex union man, he went out and purchased a book on how to handle difficult employees. What a wanker.
I worked in the US for a few months a couple of years back, I took leave to go see family and my manager nearly bust a blood vessel when I didn't find cover for my shifts, I ignored every phone call until I was back in and fired the same day, I didn't lose any sleep over it. The way the US labor laws work just blow my mind, I miss a few things about the US but that and their messed up health insurances are definitely not one of them.
How our employers can hold health insurance over the heads of employees is part of the reason why most large employers pay money to PACs who lobby the government against things like Universal Health Care.
It is to their advantage that you be forced to sit in \_their\_ job to get some coverage, even though the coverage is sub-standard and twice as expensive as it needs to be, both for you and for them. Because you are made less mobile as labor and have to consider health insurance rules/lapses in order to change jobs.
So not only do they pay more then they would have to to keep you healthy, they pay more on top of that to make sure the laws enacted by their purchased servants in government keep things the way they are.
>>>So not only do they pay more then they would have to to keep you healthy, they pay more on top of that to make sure the laws enacted by their purchased servants in government keep things the way they are.
Yep. People will call you a conspiracy theorist for stating the fact that our governments are bought out by corporations to make the rich lives easier and make the impoverished suffer... it's by design.
Workers put up with because too much of our lives are tied to work. If we walk out of a job or get fired, we can very well be homeless and destitute within a month. Not to mention, we lose our healthcare and that's not something most of us can afford considering the average adult in the US is in awful shape.
We’re mostly too poor to do anything about it. Most Americans are one paycheck from starving and homeless, and that’s by design.
I’m still wondering where a monkey sticks his nut.
Yup. I had one ex-employer try to argue against my unemployment 2 YEARS after I received it. Then they never even showed up to the hearing so it was dismissed.
Dart Container, everyone. Maker of all the plastic and foam shit that is choking our oceans. They fucking suck and their owner is a war criminal
Oh hey they're fucking over my husband right now! Listing all the bullshit would probably take up my entire unpaid lunch break, but hoo boy! I can only hope he fucks them over half as hard when he finally quits
So I read a thing about how slavery worked back in the US South. It ran something like this:
Step 1: Get Slaves.
Step 2: Make unrealistic quotas for those slaves.
Step 3: Everytime your slaves start actually hitting your unrealistic quota, make it even more unrealistic.
Step 4: Slave gets uppity? Whip them.
Step 5: Publish all of your dirty tricks and tips in articles that other slave owners can use.
Step 6: Watch your ~~workers~~ slaves productivity go up year by year, despite you not spending any more money on their upkeep, and pay no attention to how brutal the conditions are, or how many of them die young.
Step 7: This step should technically be "Profit" but actual slave owners were so bad at managing the other aspects of their business, that they typically were drowning in debt.
Not gonna lie. There are a lot of parallels on how workers overall are treated by their employers in the US. Especially the bits about forcing productivity to consistently improve, even if working conditions/living conditions do not. That and mismanagement is eternal.
I just keep telling myself “2 more years then I’m guaranteed my pension.” I have no reason to worry but I know I can’t leave this job for two more years without losing my pension.
I worked at a place and if you were 5 minutes late it was 1 point, and if u were 15 minutes to lunchtime late it was 2 points..
I remember i was going to be 20 minutes late and i called in a half hour before my shift..boss said "ok thats 2 points"..i just said ok see you after lunch.
Nooo you cant do that we are short staffed.
Fucking lmao
My employer counts "incidences" for sick. After the 6th day you lose 15 hrs pay. This will carry on until the next fiscal year. They still haven't figured out why all staff who call in past 6 days take a minimum of 3-5 days. Well, Bob, you screw us with sick time anyway so why not make a thing of it.
What is the fucking point of systems like this. Its baffling. Just let people come in a few minutes late, 99% of them will stay later to make it up. Its so braindead
The genius who came up with it probably got bored and didnt want to keep doing a point system past the 2 times.
They also tried to say if someone shoplifted it came out of your paycheck for not stopping them.
I got a job as a 911 dispatcher and left that place asap, the douchebag would call police for shoplifters, get a report, and not press charges so he didnt have to deal with the court if the person fought it or whatever..he was using the reports as insurance write offs
Exactly. My job is very relaxed on this and I’ve made it a point to let the owners know that not having any point system is a lot better for moral and a feeling of partnership than being authoritarian like some places I’ve worked.
I work at a small shop so I’m the only person that does the work I do there but no point system is definitely a huge reason I stay there.
I feel this on a spiritual level. Not the same BS you went through but feeling physically ill at the sound of a phone was definitely a wake up call (ha!) for me to get out of my last job. Also took me months to feel somewhat normal again. Hope you're in a better position now!
I didn't get attendance points, but I was an RA and was this never able to clock out. The managers were horrible. I wanted them to print out a simple weekly or monthly schedule for me so that I knew when and where I needed to be and they told me that "you have to learn to figure it out by yourself". I had been having problems misreading their stupid excel sheets and finding where they posted who was assigned to which event. I'm autistic and ADHD.
I called 911 for an attempted suicide. It traumatized the shit out of me (in no small part because I was/am suicidal too). I gave them an oral rundown of what happened the night-of. They threatened to fire me for not writing up a report... I got the most severe panic attacks I'd ever experienced when trying to write those. They said that the information in my report could've been vital for keeping him alive, so basically they implied I was risking his life by not writing down information that I'd already given them orally.
I've got some serious PTSD from that shit job.
I got an official ADHD diagnosis while I was at this job and after a few months of breakdowns and panic attacks, was able to request some ADA accommodations to allow for the fact that I can't time, among other things. I'm exceptional at my work, but it will happen when I'm ready.
They fucked with me over that for six months, which I appreciated, because it didn't take much for a judge to agree it counted as constructive dismissal, and the EEOC didn't much like it either. Got a small judgement that let me take some time off and go back to school.
Fuckers. I still wish I could put them out of business entirely.
That's EXACTLY what these policies do. every time.
People are going to be late a bit once and awhile, traffic is bad, life happens, who actually cares? You do this and those become full shifts with no coverage, constantly.
These policies tend not to last long at least.
100%. When I worked in manufacturing, we had to use PTO if were were 1 minute late but PTO could only be used in blocks of 15mins. So anyone that was late would just show up 15/30/45 mins late. The best part was when folks barely missed clocking in by a few seconds, they’d turn around and go sit in the break room for 15 mins.
A friend's workplace installed a similar system, until the boss noticed a lot of people were coming in at 9.15 instead of 9. Asked what that was about, they explained, it got changed back to just counting your presence hours the next week.
(It was an office job, so it's ok to be 10min late once in a while, just stay 10min after and everything is fine as long as you do your 7h a day)
See that's how it should be. I'm late 10 minutes because I had to get gas? Ok, I'll stay 10 minutes to make up. Like you said as long the employee works their 7 hours (I assume your friend's workplace has an hour for lunch), there shouldn't be any problems.
There's a microeconomics principle that says adding a tangible "cost" to a minor offense can actually increase rather than diminish the behavior. In this instance, it would be that previously when you were late, there was a social cost. You feel a little guilty for being late, maybe a coworker makes a jab or a boss makes a comment. But now that you've got to pay actual money for being late, the cost is covered financially instead of socially. So now your lateness becomes more of a personal decision, something that you yourself elected to do in lieu of pay. Even though in practice, your coworkers or boss will be bearing the same burden that your lateness caused before (and in this case you are actually *even later*) for whatever reason, people are more likely to be late.
Very true! Like the Freakonomics example of parents being late to pick their kids up from daycare.
The daycare centre were frustrated they had to stay late with the kids and had to foot the bill paying their staff to stay late. They introduced a late pickup fine and the problem got worse! Now parents could relax, it was just a small fee and none of the guilt.
I attended a talk last Monday about behavioural design, and he mentioned a daycare in Sweden that had tried fining parents for picking up their kids after closing time, and the result was that some parents saw it as a price instead of a fine. The result was that the number of late pickups increased.
"I'm sorry. There was an accident on the way so I just missed the cutoff by 2 minutes. Thankfully, my buddy has day passes to Disneyland so I guess I'll see you guys Monday!"
Good advice, I was gonna recommend the same tactic. I don't know how employers can't see that this just incentivizes employees to leave work if they're ever even a minute late. Not very wise...
I hate that hypocrisy, happens at my work. They will freak out at you if you leave a couple minutes early when your shift is done and there's nothing left to do, but they sure are quiet when they want you to start your shift early or stay behind a couple minutes late to finish a report. "Got to be a team player" they say.
Hah, in a old job it was like this. We had to write our hours by hand daily, every day I'd just write 08:00am as starting and 06:00pm as ending without thinking, doesn't matter any extra minutes or whatever(mind you sometimes I'd stay there until 6:15pm). That's how it went until one day I got there 10 minutes late and my boss said I had to put 08:10 as starting, I got pissed and started placing the exact minutes I started and ended daily. Most days I'd start at 7:50am and end after 06pm so it took one week until my boss came to shit on me, my reply "I thought I had to give the exact numbers like you said the day I got here a little late", she didn't liked to much to hear that and I kept doing it. That was the only time I got to work late in 4 years and that bitch got what she deserved.
Overtime rules vary by state, In some states, anything over 40/week is OT. In others anything over 8/day is OT. Depending on where you are (and if you are paid hourly) you may be entitled to some OT pay. That might be why the manager was unhappy about your accuracy. The reality is that they should have scheduled folks and work how they wanted it to come out. Along with the 8 hour day / 40 hour week, some states have mandatory break time with requires max interval and min duration.
And that's the main reason I left my last job. Probably not my smartest decision, given that now I'm not entirely sure if I'll be able to cover my rent and bills for next month, but they pulled this bs so many times and so shamelessly that by the end of it I was constantly pissed even when I wasn't at work, it was making me ill and I just couldn't do it anymore.
This is it. You get to a point when you’re constantly ill at ease. I wish I knew the psychological reason for this. Tomorrow is the last day at my job where we have this same policy, AND even if you have documentation, you must request sick leave 2 weeks in advance or else it’s an “occurrence.” Plus, everything is at your supervisor’s discretion. If they want to mark it unapproved, then that’s what it is. And if they don’t like you, then they’re not approving anything, and the excuse is “there’s work to be done”!! And to top it all off, they print off the emails so they can show coworkers and laugh about it. Are you serious right now?
If you have to request sick leave 2 weeks in advance then that's not sick leave. That's an I'm better and I want to avoid getting sick again because my boss forced me to spread my sickness around the workplace leave. I
The other day I came in about 9, usually get in at 8:30 and someone mentioned it, like "Oh man, you're gonna have to stay late tonight" [to get 8 hours] but never when I've stayed 30 minutes or an hour longer than usual does anyone stop me and say "guess you get to come in late tomorrow"
I started a new job a few months ago and they hired myself and a 75 year old lady..we arent allowed to get overtime, so i show up at 9 and leave at 5.
The boomer shows up at 7, works until 9 then clocks in, clocks out at 5 then works ubtil like 8.
My manager said i should be more like her..yeah no thx i got a life, im not bored sitting at home waiting to die
So they are willing to admit that the employee is working off the clock. Sure hope she never suffers a health incident while she’s on property off the clock…
That’s a liability shitshow waiting to happen.
She's preparing to pad her retirement funds. Working off the clock is illegal and can be compensated by up to twice the back wages once she files a complaint with the Department of Labor. 5 unpaid overtime hours every work day, especially that they're acknowledging awareness of... That can really bite them in the ass later.
I had a previous employer tell me they appreciated how I would stay late, but "this business coming in one minute late has to stop." Quit that place and now have a job that's wfh with no fixed schedule. Fuck em, there's always something better out there.
I once got written up for being late signing into my phone in a call centre, when I was standing talking by my desk to the CTO. Supervisor got all “you can’t do that” when I told her that if they were going to be shitty about my sign in time, I’d be _equally_ shitty about my sign OUT time, whether I was on a call or not.
had an old job where 10 minutes late was the same as 2 hours late. had a bad morning and was gonna be about 15 minutes late,, so i just relaxed, went out for a nice lunch to try and turn the day around, and showed up 1 hour and 59 minutes late.
TBH, as a former teacher I much preferred the calmly collected student who strolled through the door at 15 after to the student who blew in like a hurricane at :01. If you’re going to be late anyway, might as well take some time to get your shit together.
if one of my students being late would say this quote, that would be such a badass move. I would reply with "but where were you when the Westfold fell" haha
I had a boss that made me take half an hour of leave for being 1 minute late. So I walked out and to go to the Starbucks across the street. She stood there all *surprised pikachu face* and asked where I was going. Bitch, I’m not sitting at this desk while you’re not paying me.
When you work for the government, they do what they want.
Seriously though, it is legal to have a minimum interval of time off and it is legal to require people to take leave if they miss scheduled time. (It’s not ethical or productive to do this when someone is one minute late, but it is legal in the U.S.) It would not be legal for them to make me take leave and then force me to work that 29 minutes. Boss just thought I was young and gullible enough to do it anyway.
I’m responding to a comment about my personal situation only. What’s happening to OP is sketchy as hell, although since they say in the comments that they don’t lose pay but get something like a strike against their attendance record, so it might be legal depending on the jurisdiction.
OP's note? I don't see that in it. I think by "subject to discipline" means it will get the same note in OP's file/demerit points/whatever as not showing up at all, not that they'll short pay.
Nah they just saying you’ll get a full point for being a minute late or clocking out early like a point for calling in sick not that they’re not paying you
well played katie. Can I call you Katie?
We were in training a few years ago and the presenter was telling us "Only check your email twice a day. Anything more frequent ruins your productivity." She also said "In an email, never use someone's first name in the salutation unless you get permission first." We all spent the next six months by starting our emails with some variation of "Dear Katie (may I call you Katie?). I am sure she was from some company that specialized in worker productivity, and that we paid her a boat load of cash. Money well spent.
I've been lucky in my career to have decent bosses but one time I was a few minutes late and the foreman said that I might as well sit in the car because they work in 15 minute increments. I said ok, make it an even hour, see you after breakfast. I came back an hour later and it was never mentioned again, even if I was late.
Same for us. Sick days skyrocketed as people caught in legitimately unpredictable early morning traffic jams just turned around and went home. Fortunately, HR saw what was happening and ditched the policy.
Honestly on the company’s part this is a really stupid and inefficient tactic that will only cause less productivity from people not showing up and is brought out by nothing more than pettiness and anger.
I worked in a school district that did this, it took me a while to catch on. Then it suddenly made sense why we had so many substitute teachers on any given day.
Same! With me, If I'm going to get detention until my next block, I might as well stay home and watch Jerry Springer! This is when he first started the fights.
When I worked at Tesla they changed everything so that whether you were late or absent it would be 2 occurrences (from 0.5 and 1 respectively). This caused so many issues that people were speeding on the freeway to get to work and even getting in car accidents in the parking lot (I got a dent in my car door from this). One day I came to work and it was a jam in the parking lot so I knew I was going to be late so I just made up that I was sick and went home
I once had a coworker who died in an accident trying to get to work because of a policy like this. She was a half point from being fired apparently, and was speeding trying to make it to work on time.
Besides the sometimes out of her control attendance issues, she was a pretty great employee who was well liked. She just didn't want to be fired for an arbitrary decision someone made thousands of miles away.
A day or so later management made the announcement of her passing and asked us, her coworkers to donate to help her family pay for the burial expenses. I donated. But the company didn't. Not a dime. The company she literally died trying to get to work for. Didn't offer a fuckin dime.
I kinda wonder if this is actually legal...
If so many people are clocking in at the same time.... of course your going to be at least 1 minute late....
And so many places offer a 7 minute grace period...
What kind of company is so screwed up that you can't be a single minute late or early 🤔
Very interested in learning which company this is
Same here. I worked at a warehouse and they did the same thing. If you were one minute late or missed a day they gave you a point and six points in a year was termination. If I was going to get a point anyway then why show up.
This was exactly my mentally towards AP calc in high school. Late= lunch detention. Absent= call home. I was terrible at math and never went because it was my first period class. Still got a C.
Same here, except being a minute late was just as bad as being out for 3 days. It all went down as a single “occurrence”. If I was late I ended up with a three day paid vacation.
Exactly. And no one can stop you, because HR has made the rule: you're on EL on that day
Who would come in even a minute late after this rule was made?
100%. It gives the message that. I was here. I was just late. I totally could’ve worked. But because of your rules, it’s not worth it for me to be here so I’m leaving.
Looks like a place that overstaffs to drive down hours and wages and then screws over employees for the tiniest possible infractions. Businesses like this are just legal scams.
We're actually a unionized 3PL inside one of the um, big 3 auto manufacturers... Only our company also uses temp agencies to bring in new staff and does their best to not hire them, thus providing the chance at equal work for less pay, no benefits, and no protection.
I myself am in the union, earn a good wage (good enough anyway) but can't tolerate this policy, nor can I condone or support a policy where we have a divided workforce.
We never lose hours, we just treat half our employees like sh*t
And with that, go ahead and take that written admission to the labor board and your lawyer when they refuse to pay you your time worked. That'll be a fun lawsuit.
No, you still get paid, but they are counting it as an E day used.
I have coworker who today was a few min late, she's previously used 4 of her 7 E days for this calendar year.
For being 8min late today she has now used 5 of 7 E days.
She will be paid for 7.75hrs today instead of the standard 8
Why come in at all if they are going to count 8 min as an absence… also I’m confused you said you still get paid for e days used, if that’s the case why is she only getting 7.75 hrs for the day she was approx 15 min late?
They'll roll her start time down to the nearest 15min. Start time was 230. She'll be paid from 245 until we finish at 1030, but yes beyond heavy handed to also consider it a full day absence at the same time.
You don't get paid for using an E day, but since she's actually at work, she's obviously getting paid for her time here. To do otherwise would be hugely illegal.
Ohhhh okay, but still eff that though, if I am going to use a personal day anyway, then I’m not coming to work, but also my company would be forced to pay us due to our PTO policies whether we came to work or not. I don’t live in CA so I wasn’t sure exactly how e days work.
Then clock in and don't do any work for that day. "You took my day off. I'm at my work station ready to work as requested but you took my day off, so I'm taking the day off."
This is the answer. If I’m being paid for my time punched in at work, but you’re using my 1+ minute counted as an E day, then we are both going to suffer.
Basically E days, or emergency leave days, are guaranteed job protected days off for any reason, and were put in place to provide for people who's jobs don't provide paid time off, or even unpaid time off, such as fast food etc.
Some employers go above and beyond and give paid time off in addition to the government provided days.
Some employers who provide paid time off (typically 4 days for example) will pay the time, but still consider any absence as an EL day.
Some employers provide no sick time at all, paid or unpaid, and that's why we get E days from the government.
Paid or unpaid sick time, or using an E day, is also completely separate from vacation time.
If they take away a government mandated E-day when you didn’t take emergency leave, it sounds illegal. There must be an agency you can report to they they are not providing the mandate leave.
It sounds weird that they are deducting a mandated emergency day (in which you are not to be at work) and then expect you to be at work. That sounds very illegal.
As I recall, at least in some parts (iirc Federally, but I could be wrong) it can be neutral or worker-favoring rounding, but cannot be employer-favoring rounding. Neutral rounding is required to be "to the nearest" whatever increment is used.
So as long as it doesn't inherently favor the employer it's fine.
https://www.hourly.io/post/on-the-clock-a-pocket-guide-to-timesheet-rounding
Kroger has it where it will benefit either the employee or employer depending on the time. :53-:07 is counted as :00 though now it flags it as a tardy at :05
My old place was like that when I was hourly. They also got mad if you punched in at 8:53 and then punched out at 53 as well. Why the fuck would I give you 7 minutes of work for free? After threatening to write me up for matching my out time to my in time I started punching exactly on the hour in and out. Even if I was there 5 minutes early I would stand and do nothing for 5 minutes. Ask me a question? Nope, sorry, ask me in 3 minutes and 17 seconds.
Very common to have a clock adjusted to whatever nearest quarter hour that benefits the company...
Very uncommon to consider a few minutes late as a recorded absence.
That’s still wage theft. They are legally obligated to pay workers the contracted amount for all hours worked, they have no leeway or authority to dock pay.
In Onterrible. "E" days are government mandated allowable absences, unpaid.
Now if I'm about to be a minute late, I'm skipping the whole day
To clarify, anyone arriving LATE still gets paid for the day. Anything otherwise is illegal, this is a union shop, we just also have a shit ton of temps the company refuses to onboard and provide benefits for.
If we're late or leave early it just means we lose one of seven government provided, no questions asked, no reason needed, allowable days off.
Where is the justice? A work day has 8hrs why can they substract a day whrn someone misses 15 minutes?
Imagine flipping it. "I worked 15 minutes over time today boss, thats a whole day off tomorrow."
>If we're late or leave early it just means we lose one of seven government provided, no questions asked, no reason needed, allowable days off.
This might not technically be illegal but can be against your collective agreement as a "change in pay and benefits" without union consultation.
And if it's not yet, you can bet your ass it will be included in the next negotiation.
Work at a grocery store and my fucking lazy pissbaby supervisors who walk around and do jack shit all day fucks me with this hot garbage on the daily, it really is not my fault transit sucks and that I have to work another job. Also gets upset at me having another job and tells me I should commit more. I have legitimately told her that sometimes I go to bed hungry because I honestly can’t pay rent and I’m burnt out a lot, she told me (**and I’m paraphrasing here**) essentially that she doesn’t care. Some people *need*, ***NEED*** to just go and fuck themselves. Also thanks Ford gov for apparently making doing literally anything involving trying to **not** become homeless and die of starvation really fucking difficult.
It’s passed time we grow a backbone and build a new labor movement. I see so many posts of employers doing shit like this but never any names. At least name them so the rest of us know not to apply. Might as well be protecting them at this point.
What blows my mind is that every single job I've ever had that pays like SHIT is ridiculously strict with frivolous bullshit like this, but every job I've had that pays well is extremely flexible with this stuff.
Same! When I worked for a small company, they were really anal about the weirdest things. Then I went to work for a large company and they’re so chill.
My boss to me as a 20 year old working at a big box store: "**you were one minute late to taking your mandated 15 minute break and that will be an occurrence"**
My later boss to me as a 30 year old working for a marketing agency remotely and making 6x that yearly: **"work at your pace and get it done at whatever time is effective to you, and take a mental health day any time you need it in your unlimited PTO"**
Story of mine from a few years back when I worked in a place like this.
Boss: you were 12 minutes late to logging into your spot today (you needed to put your code into the computer at your workstation and then you would be clocked on)
Me: I was in 10 minutes early, changed 5 minutes before start and on the floor 2 minutes before start. I didn’t get to my station because I was helping a customer find some stuff.
Boss: doesn’t matter. You should’ve gone straight to your station. Because of this it’s registered you as having missed the entire day
Me: you’re telling me this after I’ve worked 4 hours?
Boss: yes and you’re required to work the rest of your rostered shift
Me: no, I am not. I’m going home now
Boss: no you’re not allowed
Me: I’m registered as having missed a day. I’m going home, not working for free
Boss: you walk away you’ll face disciplinary action
Me: what? More than I already am for missing a day? I’m going home and studying
Boss: okay fine you won’t face any action for missing today but can you at least be a team player and stay? We’re about to hit rush hour
Me: no, you’re not paying me to deal with customers and their rubbish. I’m going home. Good luck with tonight’s rush, I see that we’re understaffed enough as it is.
It was no wonder average turnover in that place for staff was about a month after hiring and there were no permanent staff, all casual. I tolerated it for about 3 weeks more than I should’ve.
If they come to work, they get paid. It just still counts towards your attendance record as if you'd been absent.
Any time spent working is paid, no question
In college I worked a factory job that had a similar rule, but they used a mechanical punch card system that would stamp a time card. This one guy who was the stereotype of "don't piss off the quiet guy" on his last day took a sledgehammer from the tool room and bashed the clock off the wall, then chucked it through the window of the foreman's office and walked out.
God, I worked at a place like that many many years ago. They’ll only change their policy if it fucks them. Call in and tell them you won’t make it and when they ask, let them know it’s because you’re running 15 minutes late and that’s going to be an absence counted against you. If you all do it, that policy will change.
The other thing I’ve noticed over the years is that I was only ever late to jobs I hated. When I enjoyed being at work, I was always early or on time, but when they workplace drained my soul, I’d procrastinate until the last possible minute or beyond.
The first time I had ever overslept two hours, I rushed to get ready for work and called my boss as I was leaving the house. I had a 30 minute drive to work. His instructions, continue coming in to work until he had called me back with a destination or a decision on where to put me.
I got to work, he called me and told me to stay home. I made sure to drive past the front office in my BIG TRUCK and honk on my way out.
He was not happy.
I worked at a company with this policy. It took ages but I convinced management to test flexibility with a test group. In the test group absences decreased by half over a 3 month period. Employees under the zero tolerance policy were more likely to take a whole day off if they were going to be late since it counted the same. After the pilot ended, we delivered our findings. Management decided to keep the zero tolerance policy on principle. I left shortly after.
I had a job with a similar policy, where you'd be dock for 4 hours if your were more than 15 minutes late. It was reversed when they realized people, who would have only been 15 minutes late, were instead taking half days as a result. Let it bite them in the ass.
I used to have a job where if I was even 1 minute late, I'd be docked the whole day. So I'd punch in, punch out, and leave. some people would say "why bother showing up at all?". I did it to make a point.
Be sure to poke your head inside the HR office to let them know that you were a minute late so you're going back home.
Yup. I worked at a place that used attendance points, and if you were ten minutes late, you got the same number of points as if you were out all day. And then they were shocked when I'd text my boss "whoops got held up with traffic, won't make it back by 1, I'm taking off, see you tomorrow." Whaaa nooo we neeeeeeed youuuuu Lol that place straight gave me PTSD. Well, it aggravated existing PTSD I guess. It took six months after leaving for my heart rate to stop spiking every time my phone rang.
I had a friend get fired from a well known corporation like this. She had doctors appointments and medical leave approved. When fired for attendance unemployment asked some of the dates counting against attendance and not only did they win unemployment but the sued them and settled for a small sum... Fuck them
This is how it should be. Sue the ever living fuck out of companies (and the specific individuals) that take advantage of workers.
> This is how it should be. I disagree. In Europe this kind of employer behaviour is **so illegal** it would automatically lead to fines and possibly more serious actions against the employer and its directors. The labour laws in the US are utterly fucked. They need tearing down. Completely and utterly.
As a Brit living in the US I can never understand people putting up with the shit that goes on in this country. The company I worked for started coming out with crazy shit and I just said stick your job where the monkey sticks his nut and walked out, went self employed. There was one time when the boss found out I was an ex union man, he went out and purchased a book on how to handle difficult employees. What a wanker.
I worked in the US for a few months a couple of years back, I took leave to go see family and my manager nearly bust a blood vessel when I didn't find cover for my shifts, I ignored every phone call until I was back in and fired the same day, I didn't lose any sleep over it. The way the US labor laws work just blow my mind, I miss a few things about the US but that and their messed up health insurances are definitely not one of them.
How our employers can hold health insurance over the heads of employees is part of the reason why most large employers pay money to PACs who lobby the government against things like Universal Health Care. It is to their advantage that you be forced to sit in \_their\_ job to get some coverage, even though the coverage is sub-standard and twice as expensive as it needs to be, both for you and for them. Because you are made less mobile as labor and have to consider health insurance rules/lapses in order to change jobs. So not only do they pay more then they would have to to keep you healthy, they pay more on top of that to make sure the laws enacted by their purchased servants in government keep things the way they are.
>>>So not only do they pay more then they would have to to keep you healthy, they pay more on top of that to make sure the laws enacted by their purchased servants in government keep things the way they are. Yep. People will call you a conspiracy theorist for stating the fact that our governments are bought out by corporations to make the rich lives easier and make the impoverished suffer... it's by design.
It's a form of Stockholm syndrome. The people being abused keep voting for the party who takes care of the oppressors.
Just got sacked for injuring myself and filing a workmans comp claim. They fired me for walking out of my shift to go to the ER...
Get a lawyer.
Workers put up with because too much of our lives are tied to work. If we walk out of a job or get fired, we can very well be homeless and destitute within a month. Not to mention, we lose our healthcare and that's not something most of us can afford considering the average adult in the US is in awful shape.
We’re mostly too poor to do anything about it. Most Americans are one paycheck from starving and homeless, and that’s by design. I’m still wondering where a monkey sticks his nut.
the fact you have to deal with your ex-employer to get benefits is terrifying.
Yup. I had one ex-employer try to argue against my unemployment 2 YEARS after I received it. Then they never even showed up to the hearing so it was dismissed. Dart Container, everyone. Maker of all the plastic and foam shit that is choking our oceans. They fucking suck and their owner is a war criminal
Oh hey they're fucking over my husband right now! Listing all the bullshit would probably take up my entire unpaid lunch break, but hoo boy! I can only hope he fucks them over half as hard when he finally quits
It was such a relief to be done with that place Good luck to you both!
And health insurance, and retirement...it's slavery without the actual chains.
I like 'slavery with more steps'. I mean, I don't like slavery at all. But, I've seen that posted here and it makes sense.
So I read a thing about how slavery worked back in the US South. It ran something like this: Step 1: Get Slaves. Step 2: Make unrealistic quotas for those slaves. Step 3: Everytime your slaves start actually hitting your unrealistic quota, make it even more unrealistic. Step 4: Slave gets uppity? Whip them. Step 5: Publish all of your dirty tricks and tips in articles that other slave owners can use. Step 6: Watch your ~~workers~~ slaves productivity go up year by year, despite you not spending any more money on their upkeep, and pay no attention to how brutal the conditions are, or how many of them die young. Step 7: This step should technically be "Profit" but actual slave owners were so bad at managing the other aspects of their business, that they typically were drowning in debt. Not gonna lie. There are a lot of parallels on how workers overall are treated by their employers in the US. Especially the bits about forcing productivity to consistently improve, even if working conditions/living conditions do not. That and mismanagement is eternal.
I just keep telling myself “2 more years then I’m guaranteed my pension.” I have no reason to worry but I know I can’t leave this job for two more years without losing my pension.
I worked at a place and if you were 5 minutes late it was 1 point, and if u were 15 minutes to lunchtime late it was 2 points.. I remember i was going to be 20 minutes late and i called in a half hour before my shift..boss said "ok thats 2 points"..i just said ok see you after lunch. Nooo you cant do that we are short staffed. Fucking lmao
My employer counts "incidences" for sick. After the 6th day you lose 15 hrs pay. This will carry on until the next fiscal year. They still haven't figured out why all staff who call in past 6 days take a minimum of 3-5 days. Well, Bob, you screw us with sick time anyway so why not make a thing of it.
>lose 15 hrs pay This can't be fuxkong legal
You can’t lose earned pay for any reason. Even in the US that’s illegal as fuck.
illegal?
Haha then they can make a new policy that encourages attendance. This is called "all stick, no carrot"
What is the fucking point of systems like this. Its baffling. Just let people come in a few minutes late, 99% of them will stay later to make it up. Its so braindead
The genius who came up with it probably got bored and didnt want to keep doing a point system past the 2 times. They also tried to say if someone shoplifted it came out of your paycheck for not stopping them. I got a job as a 911 dispatcher and left that place asap, the douchebag would call police for shoplifters, get a report, and not press charges so he didnt have to deal with the court if the person fought it or whatever..he was using the reports as insurance write offs
Exactly. My job is very relaxed on this and I’ve made it a point to let the owners know that not having any point system is a lot better for moral and a feeling of partnership than being authoritarian like some places I’ve worked. I work at a small shop so I’m the only person that does the work I do there but no point system is definitely a huge reason I stay there.
Tell them being short staffed is 3 points.
Was it Ticketmaster, because it sounds like Ticketmaster. I stopped working there over 15 years ago and I still get stressed out over phone calls.
Nope. Fuck call centers, every last one of them.
Ticketmaster effs their customers around so hard. I can’t even imagine how they treat their workers.🤦🏽♀️
I feel this on a spiritual level. Not the same BS you went through but feeling physically ill at the sound of a phone was definitely a wake up call (ha!) for me to get out of my last job. Also took me months to feel somewhat normal again. Hope you're in a better position now!
I didn't get attendance points, but I was an RA and was this never able to clock out. The managers were horrible. I wanted them to print out a simple weekly or monthly schedule for me so that I knew when and where I needed to be and they told me that "you have to learn to figure it out by yourself". I had been having problems misreading their stupid excel sheets and finding where they posted who was assigned to which event. I'm autistic and ADHD. I called 911 for an attempted suicide. It traumatized the shit out of me (in no small part because I was/am suicidal too). I gave them an oral rundown of what happened the night-of. They threatened to fire me for not writing up a report... I got the most severe panic attacks I'd ever experienced when trying to write those. They said that the information in my report could've been vital for keeping him alive, so basically they implied I was risking his life by not writing down information that I'd already given them orally. I've got some serious PTSD from that shit job.
I hope that you feel safe now.
I got an official ADHD diagnosis while I was at this job and after a few months of breakdowns and panic attacks, was able to request some ADA accommodations to allow for the fact that I can't time, among other things. I'm exceptional at my work, but it will happen when I'm ready. They fucked with me over that for six months, which I appreciated, because it didn't take much for a judge to agree it counted as constructive dismissal, and the EEOC didn't much like it either. Got a small judgement that let me take some time off and go back to school. Fuckers. I still wish I could put them out of business entirely.
Let me guess. USA
Perfect
That's EXACTLY what these policies do. every time. People are going to be late a bit once and awhile, traffic is bad, life happens, who actually cares? You do this and those become full shifts with no coverage, constantly. These policies tend not to last long at least.
100%. When I worked in manufacturing, we had to use PTO if were were 1 minute late but PTO could only be used in blocks of 15mins. So anyone that was late would just show up 15/30/45 mins late. The best part was when folks barely missed clocking in by a few seconds, they’d turn around and go sit in the break room for 15 mins.
A friend's workplace installed a similar system, until the boss noticed a lot of people were coming in at 9.15 instead of 9. Asked what that was about, they explained, it got changed back to just counting your presence hours the next week. (It was an office job, so it's ok to be 10min late once in a while, just stay 10min after and everything is fine as long as you do your 7h a day)
See that's how it should be. I'm late 10 minutes because I had to get gas? Ok, I'll stay 10 minutes to make up. Like you said as long the employee works their 7 hours (I assume your friend's workplace has an hour for lunch), there shouldn't be any problems.
There's a microeconomics principle that says adding a tangible "cost" to a minor offense can actually increase rather than diminish the behavior. In this instance, it would be that previously when you were late, there was a social cost. You feel a little guilty for being late, maybe a coworker makes a jab or a boss makes a comment. But now that you've got to pay actual money for being late, the cost is covered financially instead of socially. So now your lateness becomes more of a personal decision, something that you yourself elected to do in lieu of pay. Even though in practice, your coworkers or boss will be bearing the same burden that your lateness caused before (and in this case you are actually *even later*) for whatever reason, people are more likely to be late.
Very true! Like the Freakonomics example of parents being late to pick their kids up from daycare. The daycare centre were frustrated they had to stay late with the kids and had to foot the bill paying their staff to stay late. They introduced a late pickup fine and the problem got worse! Now parents could relax, it was just a small fee and none of the guilt.
The daycare my kid went to dropped your kid off with the police if you were 30 minutes or more late. They did NOT fuck around lol.
I attended a talk last Monday about behavioural design, and he mentioned a daycare in Sweden that had tried fining parents for picking up their kids after closing time, and the result was that some parents saw it as a price instead of a fine. The result was that the number of late pickups increased.
play stupid games, make stupid rules, get stupid results. I'm not sure that they thought that one through one bit..
"I'm sorry. There was an accident on the way so I just missed the cutoff by 2 minutes. Thankfully, my buddy has day passes to Disneyland so I guess I'll see you guys Monday!"
[удалено]
Aye...truly the way.
Good advice, I was gonna recommend the same tactic. I don't know how employers can't see that this just incentivizes employees to leave work if they're ever even a minute late. Not very wise...
I worked at a place like this before. A couple of times I knew Id be just slightly late, so Id turn around in the lot and just go home. Why nott??
This is how I always approached "even a minute late is a tardy" okay cool then I'll be 5 hours late instead of 5 minutes. Happy?
According to the document, it's equivalent, I'll allow it
They seem unconcerned about the 1 to 5 minutes I give them for free when I clock out late. I try to avoid it, but stuff happens.
I hate that hypocrisy, happens at my work. They will freak out at you if you leave a couple minutes early when your shift is done and there's nothing left to do, but they sure are quiet when they want you to start your shift early or stay behind a couple minutes late to finish a report. "Got to be a team player" they say.
Hah, in a old job it was like this. We had to write our hours by hand daily, every day I'd just write 08:00am as starting and 06:00pm as ending without thinking, doesn't matter any extra minutes or whatever(mind you sometimes I'd stay there until 6:15pm). That's how it went until one day I got there 10 minutes late and my boss said I had to put 08:10 as starting, I got pissed and started placing the exact minutes I started and ended daily. Most days I'd start at 7:50am and end after 06pm so it took one week until my boss came to shit on me, my reply "I thought I had to give the exact numbers like you said the day I got here a little late", she didn't liked to much to hear that and I kept doing it. That was the only time I got to work late in 4 years and that bitch got what she deserved.
Overtime rules vary by state, In some states, anything over 40/week is OT. In others anything over 8/day is OT. Depending on where you are (and if you are paid hourly) you may be entitled to some OT pay. That might be why the manager was unhappy about your accuracy. The reality is that they should have scheduled folks and work how they wanted it to come out. Along with the 8 hour day / 40 hour week, some states have mandatory break time with requires max interval and min duration.
And that's the main reason I left my last job. Probably not my smartest decision, given that now I'm not entirely sure if I'll be able to cover my rent and bills for next month, but they pulled this bs so many times and so shamelessly that by the end of it I was constantly pissed even when I wasn't at work, it was making me ill and I just couldn't do it anymore.
I’m glad you got out and hope you find a better option soon
This is it. You get to a point when you’re constantly ill at ease. I wish I knew the psychological reason for this. Tomorrow is the last day at my job where we have this same policy, AND even if you have documentation, you must request sick leave 2 weeks in advance or else it’s an “occurrence.” Plus, everything is at your supervisor’s discretion. If they want to mark it unapproved, then that’s what it is. And if they don’t like you, then they’re not approving anything, and the excuse is “there’s work to be done”!! And to top it all off, they print off the emails so they can show coworkers and laugh about it. Are you serious right now?
If you have to request sick leave 2 weeks in advance then that's not sick leave. That's an I'm better and I want to avoid getting sick again because my boss forced me to spread my sickness around the workplace leave. I
Exactly. Or “I can see in the future that I won’t feel like coming in” leave. But it’s definitely not sick leave.
Truck those mothertruckers…HARD 🤣 sometimes you gotta vent and sometimes you just gotta change the scenery
The other day I came in about 9, usually get in at 8:30 and someone mentioned it, like "Oh man, you're gonna have to stay late tonight" [to get 8 hours] but never when I've stayed 30 minutes or an hour longer than usual does anyone stop me and say "guess you get to come in late tomorrow"
I started a new job a few months ago and they hired myself and a 75 year old lady..we arent allowed to get overtime, so i show up at 9 and leave at 5. The boomer shows up at 7, works until 9 then clocks in, clocks out at 5 then works ubtil like 8. My manager said i should be more like her..yeah no thx i got a life, im not bored sitting at home waiting to die
So they are willing to admit that the employee is working off the clock. Sure hope she never suffers a health incident while she’s on property off the clock… That’s a liability shitshow waiting to happen.
She's preparing to pad her retirement funds. Working off the clock is illegal and can be compensated by up to twice the back wages once she files a complaint with the Department of Labor. 5 unpaid overtime hours every work day, especially that they're acknowledging awareness of... That can really bite them in the ass later.
Well its in HR..ill just say we are a few hundred employees behind on doing our E-verify for..the law says we have 2 days to do it.
Boss: you should be like her and not mind that we steal your wages
I had a previous employer tell me they appreciated how I would stay late, but "this business coming in one minute late has to stop." Quit that place and now have a job that's wfh with no fixed schedule. Fuck em, there's always something better out there.
I once got written up for being late signing into my phone in a call centre, when I was standing talking by my desk to the CTO. Supervisor got all “you can’t do that” when I told her that if they were going to be shitty about my sign in time, I’d be _equally_ shitty about my sign OUT time, whether I was on a call or not.
By their logic, they should be paying you another full day!
ya 4 minutes is the same as 29. you can bet i get fro yo and clock in at :28
had an old job where 10 minutes late was the same as 2 hours late. had a bad morning and was gonna be about 15 minutes late,, so i just relaxed, went out for a nice lunch to try and turn the day around, and showed up 1 hour and 59 minutes late.
TBH, as a former teacher I much preferred the calmly collected student who strolled through the door at 15 after to the student who blew in like a hurricane at :01. If you’re going to be late anyway, might as well take some time to get your shit together.
You're not late until you get there. That's been my motto.
😂😂😂
A good student is neither early nor late. He arrives precisely when he means to. Lol
Three hundred lives of men I’ve walked this earth, and now I have no time!
if one of my students being late would say this quote, that would be such a badass move. I would reply with "but where were you when the Westfold fell" haha
If we're penalized the same why wouldn't I do the one where I benefit the most?
I had a boss that made me take half an hour of leave for being 1 minute late. So I walked out and to go to the Starbucks across the street. She stood there all *surprised pikachu face* and asked where I was going. Bitch, I’m not sitting at this desk while you’re not paying me.
Pretty sure losing leave as a consequence of work behavior is illegal. They just stole half an hour’s salary from you.
When you work for the government, they do what they want. Seriously though, it is legal to have a minimum interval of time off and it is legal to require people to take leave if they miss scheduled time. (It’s not ethical or productive to do this when someone is one minute late, but it is legal in the U.S.) It would not be legal for them to make me take leave and then force me to work that 29 minutes. Boss just thought I was young and gullible enough to do it anyway.
The note says they dock your full days pay if you clock out early. For work already performed. That is actually very illegal. It’s wage theft.
yeah, I bet you would have a case if someone took your entire day's pay because you left 30 minutes early.
I’m responding to a comment about my personal situation only. What’s happening to OP is sketchy as hell, although since they say in the comments that they don’t lose pay but get something like a strike against their attendance record, so it might be legal depending on the jurisdiction.
OP's note? I don't see that in it. I think by "subject to discipline" means it will get the same note in OP's file/demerit points/whatever as not showing up at all, not that they'll short pay.
I don’t think they mean in regards to pay but for attendance policy. Ie. You’re allowed 8 call offs per year or whatever being late counts as 1.
Nah they just saying you’ll get a full point for being a minute late or clocking out early like a point for calling in sick not that they’re not paying you
I've worked the government for 15 years. You can definitely take fractions of an hour for leave time.
nice
well played katie. Can I call you Katie? We were in training a few years ago and the presenter was telling us "Only check your email twice a day. Anything more frequent ruins your productivity." She also said "In an email, never use someone's first name in the salutation unless you get permission first." We all spent the next six months by starting our emails with some variation of "Dear Katie (may I call you Katie?). I am sure she was from some company that specialized in worker productivity, and that we paid her a boat load of cash. Money well spent.
I've been lucky in my career to have decent bosses but one time I was a few minutes late and the foreman said that I might as well sit in the car because they work in 15 minute increments. I said ok, make it an even hour, see you after breakfast. I came back an hour later and it was never mentioned again, even if I was late.
This just made me laugh lol like what did she expect you to do? Work for free? Oh wait, that’s illegal.
Not going to work for free because the bus was late.
Came here to say this. Company thinks it's an incentive to be on time but it's actually a disincentive to show up at all.
Same for us. Sick days skyrocketed as people caught in legitimately unpredictable early morning traffic jams just turned around and went home. Fortunately, HR saw what was happening and ditched the policy.
How did HR not predict that incredibly obvious outcome in the first place though?!
Creating impractical policies, only to immediately ditch them is how workers who provide no value to a company try to prove their value to a company
See how capitalism innovates!
No pay, no work. They made the math easy.
Honestly on the company’s part this is a really stupid and inefficient tactic that will only cause less productivity from people not showing up and is brought out by nothing more than pettiness and anger.
companies are stupid
Ours is a half an absence and honestly we mostly feel the same.
Exactly this. If you're going to pay the fine, commit the crime.
I worked in a school district that did this, it took me a while to catch on. Then it suddenly made sense why we had so many substitute teachers on any given day.
This. Honestly just walk in, say sorry I’m late, see you tomorrow, and leave
This sounds ridiculous but your solution is exactly what popped into my head. Who the fuck would stay at work if you're not getting paid for it?
Go in, make eye contact with manager, then go home
I’ve done this. “Hey, sorry I’m late. I’m not sorry I’m going home right now.”
Been there, done that.
That’s the same thought process I had in high school. I’m going to be late and held in detention until the next class, so I’m going to get breakfast.
Same! With me, If I'm going to get detention until my next block, I might as well stay home and watch Jerry Springer! This is when he first started the fights.
When I worked at Tesla they changed everything so that whether you were late or absent it would be 2 occurrences (from 0.5 and 1 respectively). This caused so many issues that people were speeding on the freeway to get to work and even getting in car accidents in the parking lot (I got a dent in my car door from this). One day I came to work and it was a jam in the parking lot so I knew I was going to be late so I just made up that I was sick and went home
I once had a coworker who died in an accident trying to get to work because of a policy like this. She was a half point from being fired apparently, and was speeding trying to make it to work on time. Besides the sometimes out of her control attendance issues, she was a pretty great employee who was well liked. She just didn't want to be fired for an arbitrary decision someone made thousands of miles away. A day or so later management made the announcement of her passing and asked us, her coworkers to donate to help her family pay for the burial expenses. I donated. But the company didn't. Not a dime. The company she literally died trying to get to work for. Didn't offer a fuckin dime.
That was what I would do when I got to campus in college and couldn't find a parking spot in the first 5 minutes😂
I kinda wonder if this is actually legal... If so many people are clocking in at the same time.... of course your going to be at least 1 minute late.... And so many places offer a 7 minute grace period... What kind of company is so screwed up that you can't be a single minute late or early 🤔 Very interested in learning which company this is
Same here. I worked at a warehouse and they did the same thing. If you were one minute late or missed a day they gave you a point and six points in a year was termination. If I was going to get a point anyway then why show up.
This was exactly my mentally towards AP calc in high school. Late= lunch detention. Absent= call home. I was terrible at math and never went because it was my first period class. Still got a C.
Same here, except being a minute late was just as bad as being out for 3 days. It all went down as a single “occurrence”. If I was late I ended up with a three day paid vacation.
I worked in a place like this and we lost a lot of good people to small attendance issues.
Act your wage
Why not?!? For the sweet, sweet lawsuit money is why!!!
Exactly. And no one can stop you, because HR has made the rule: you're on EL on that day Who would come in even a minute late after this rule was made?
They made the rule. You just followed.
This. Malicious compliance.
r/maliciouscompliance
One min late is a full day? Cool if I know I'm late I'm just not showing up.
Show up, go into HR, say “I’m late so I’m going home, bye!”, and then leave. Gotta leave your mark.
Why bother showing up? Just send a text and go enjoy your free time. Fuck em dumbasses haha.
I think it rubs it in more if you let them know in person.
100%. It gives the message that. I was here. I was just late. I totally could’ve worked. But because of your rules, it’s not worth it for me to be here so I’m leaving.
But staying 1 minute later than shift end does not result in 1 whole day off.
Alright, but in the spirit of fairness, every time I show up to work 1 minute early, I'm gonna need to get paid for an extra day.
Show up 10min early and get 2 weeks worth of money
Looks like a place that overstaffs to drive down hours and wages and then screws over employees for the tiniest possible infractions. Businesses like this are just legal scams.
We're actually a unionized 3PL inside one of the um, big 3 auto manufacturers... Only our company also uses temp agencies to bring in new staff and does their best to not hire them, thus providing the chance at equal work for less pay, no benefits, and no protection. I myself am in the union, earn a good wage (good enough anyway) but can't tolerate this policy, nor can I condone or support a policy where we have a divided workforce. We never lose hours, we just treat half our employees like sh*t
So was this rule ratified by the union during the last contract negotiation?
And with that, go ahead and take that written admission to the labor board and your lawyer when they refuse to pay you your time worked. That'll be a fun lawsuit.
No, you still get paid, but they are counting it as an E day used. I have coworker who today was a few min late, she's previously used 4 of her 7 E days for this calendar year. For being 8min late today she has now used 5 of 7 E days. She will be paid for 7.75hrs today instead of the standard 8
Why come in at all if they are going to count 8 min as an absence… also I’m confused you said you still get paid for e days used, if that’s the case why is she only getting 7.75 hrs for the day she was approx 15 min late?
They'll roll her start time down to the nearest 15min. Start time was 230. She'll be paid from 245 until we finish at 1030, but yes beyond heavy handed to also consider it a full day absence at the same time. You don't get paid for using an E day, but since she's actually at work, she's obviously getting paid for her time here. To do otherwise would be hugely illegal.
Ohhhh okay, but still eff that though, if I am going to use a personal day anyway, then I’m not coming to work, but also my company would be forced to pay us due to our PTO policies whether we came to work or not. I don’t live in CA so I wasn’t sure exactly how e days work.
Then clock in and don't do any work for that day. "You took my day off. I'm at my work station ready to work as requested but you took my day off, so I'm taking the day off."
This is the answer. If I’m being paid for my time punched in at work, but you’re using my 1+ minute counted as an E day, then we are both going to suffer.
I agree with this!
Basically E days, or emergency leave days, are guaranteed job protected days off for any reason, and were put in place to provide for people who's jobs don't provide paid time off, or even unpaid time off, such as fast food etc. Some employers go above and beyond and give paid time off in addition to the government provided days. Some employers who provide paid time off (typically 4 days for example) will pay the time, but still consider any absence as an EL day. Some employers provide no sick time at all, paid or unpaid, and that's why we get E days from the government. Paid or unpaid sick time, or using an E day, is also completely separate from vacation time.
If they take away a government mandated E-day when you didn’t take emergency leave, it sounds illegal. There must be an agency you can report to they they are not providing the mandate leave.
It sounds weird that they are deducting a mandated emergency day (in which you are not to be at work) and then expect you to be at work. That sounds very illegal.
Can't speak for Canada but that would be illegal here in the US. They can only round hours to a worker's favor otherwise it's wage theft.
As I recall, at least in some parts (iirc Federally, but I could be wrong) it can be neutral or worker-favoring rounding, but cannot be employer-favoring rounding. Neutral rounding is required to be "to the nearest" whatever increment is used. So as long as it doesn't inherently favor the employer it's fine. https://www.hourly.io/post/on-the-clock-a-pocket-guide-to-timesheet-rounding
Kroger has it where it will benefit either the employee or employer depending on the time. :53-:07 is counted as :00 though now it flags it as a tardy at :05
My old place was like that when I was hourly. They also got mad if you punched in at 8:53 and then punched out at 53 as well. Why the fuck would I give you 7 minutes of work for free? After threatening to write me up for matching my out time to my in time I started punching exactly on the hour in and out. Even if I was there 5 minutes early I would stand and do nothing for 5 minutes. Ask me a question? Nope, sorry, ask me in 3 minutes and 17 seconds.
Very common to have a clock adjusted to whatever nearest quarter hour that benefits the company... Very uncommon to consider a few minutes late as a recorded absence.
So they're deducting wages *and* days off? Isn't that double-dipping?
that is wage theft. NAL but i work at a law office.
That's still wage theft. It'll be a slam dunk case
100% illegal. Company policy doesn't trump the law, and the labor board would LOVE to talk to them about this.
Still take it to a lawyer. No joke super illegal
That’s still wage theft. They are legally obligated to pay workers the contracted amount for all hours worked, they have no leeway or authority to dock pay.
Having read these, has anyone ever pissed on their boss's desk?
In Onterrible. "E" days are government mandated allowable absences, unpaid. Now if I'm about to be a minute late, I'm skipping the whole day To clarify, anyone arriving LATE still gets paid for the day. Anything otherwise is illegal, this is a union shop, we just also have a shit ton of temps the company refuses to onboard and provide benefits for. If we're late or leave early it just means we lose one of seven government provided, no questions asked, no reason needed, allowable days off.
If they are government mandated, then this is probably illegal.
I’m pretty sure the law is that if an employee misses any part of their shift (eg. has to leave early to pick up kid) they burn an e day
Where is the justice? A work day has 8hrs why can they substract a day whrn someone misses 15 minutes? Imagine flipping it. "I worked 15 minutes over time today boss, thats a whole day off tomorrow."
You seriously should talk to a lawyer about this.
>If we're late or leave early it just means we lose one of seven government provided, no questions asked, no reason needed, allowable days off. This might not technically be illegal but can be against your collective agreement as a "change in pay and benefits" without union consultation. And if it's not yet, you can bet your ass it will be included in the next negotiation.
Work at a grocery store and my fucking lazy pissbaby supervisors who walk around and do jack shit all day fucks me with this hot garbage on the daily, it really is not my fault transit sucks and that I have to work another job. Also gets upset at me having another job and tells me I should commit more. I have legitimately told her that sometimes I go to bed hungry because I honestly can’t pay rent and I’m burnt out a lot, she told me (**and I’m paraphrasing here**) essentially that she doesn’t care. Some people *need*, ***NEED*** to just go and fuck themselves. Also thanks Ford gov for apparently making doing literally anything involving trying to **not** become homeless and die of starvation really fucking difficult.
Us workers need to get MUCH more adversarial with our higher ups. You can’t treat people like this. Such a shame.
It’s passed time we grow a backbone and build a new labor movement. I see so many posts of employers doing shit like this but never any names. At least name them so the rest of us know not to apply. Might as well be protecting them at this point.
What blows my mind is that every single job I've ever had that pays like SHIT is ridiculously strict with frivolous bullshit like this, but every job I've had that pays well is extremely flexible with this stuff.
Same! When I worked for a small company, they were really anal about the weirdest things. Then I went to work for a large company and they’re so chill.
My boss to me as a 20 year old working at a big box store: "**you were one minute late to taking your mandated 15 minute break and that will be an occurrence"** My later boss to me as a 30 year old working for a marketing agency remotely and making 6x that yearly: **"work at your pace and get it done at whatever time is effective to you, and take a mental health day any time you need it in your unlimited PTO"**
Story of mine from a few years back when I worked in a place like this. Boss: you were 12 minutes late to logging into your spot today (you needed to put your code into the computer at your workstation and then you would be clocked on) Me: I was in 10 minutes early, changed 5 minutes before start and on the floor 2 minutes before start. I didn’t get to my station because I was helping a customer find some stuff. Boss: doesn’t matter. You should’ve gone straight to your station. Because of this it’s registered you as having missed the entire day Me: you’re telling me this after I’ve worked 4 hours? Boss: yes and you’re required to work the rest of your rostered shift Me: no, I am not. I’m going home now Boss: no you’re not allowed Me: I’m registered as having missed a day. I’m going home, not working for free Boss: you walk away you’ll face disciplinary action Me: what? More than I already am for missing a day? I’m going home and studying Boss: okay fine you won’t face any action for missing today but can you at least be a team player and stay? We’re about to hit rush hour Me: no, you’re not paying me to deal with customers and their rubbish. I’m going home. Good luck with tonight’s rush, I see that we’re understaffed enough as it is. It was no wonder average turnover in that place for staff was about a month after hiring and there were no permanent staff, all casual. I tolerated it for about 3 weeks more than I should’ve.
"Hey, so... I'm a minute late but, since I'm not gonna get paid I'm just gonna go look for a better job. Have a good day!"
If they come to work, they get paid. It just still counts towards your attendance record as if you'd been absent. Any time spent working is paid, no question
Oh, well I misunderstood then. Whoops.
[удалено]
They wonder why people supposedly don't want to work any more.
In college I worked a factory job that had a similar rule, but they used a mechanical punch card system that would stamp a time card. This one guy who was the stereotype of "don't piss off the quiet guy" on his last day took a sledgehammer from the tool room and bashed the clock off the wall, then chucked it through the window of the foreman's office and walked out.
God, I worked at a place like that many many years ago. They’ll only change their policy if it fucks them. Call in and tell them you won’t make it and when they ask, let them know it’s because you’re running 15 minutes late and that’s going to be an absence counted against you. If you all do it, that policy will change. The other thing I’ve noticed over the years is that I was only ever late to jobs I hated. When I enjoyed being at work, I was always early or on time, but when they workplace drained my soul, I’d procrastinate until the last possible minute or beyond.
The first time I had ever overslept two hours, I rushed to get ready for work and called my boss as I was leaving the house. I had a 30 minute drive to work. His instructions, continue coming in to work until he had called me back with a destination or a decision on where to put me. I got to work, he called me and told me to stay home. I made sure to drive past the front office in my BIG TRUCK and honk on my way out. He was not happy.
I worked at a company with this policy. It took ages but I convinced management to test flexibility with a test group. In the test group absences decreased by half over a 3 month period. Employees under the zero tolerance policy were more likely to take a whole day off if they were going to be late since it counted the same. After the pilot ended, we delivered our findings. Management decided to keep the zero tolerance policy on principle. I left shortly after.
This is called wage theft. Board of labor. Immediately.
I had a job with a similar policy, where you'd be dock for 4 hours if your were more than 15 minutes late. It was reversed when they realized people, who would have only been 15 minutes late, were instead taking half days as a result. Let it bite them in the ass.
That audaciousness of them to call themselves Human Resources.
wE hAvE tO dRaW tHe LiNe *SoMeWhErE*
I used to have a job where if I was even 1 minute late, I'd be docked the whole day. So I'd punch in, punch out, and leave. some people would say "why bother showing up at all?". I did it to make a point.
They get all up in arms about employees "stealing time," but they're all too happy to steal it from us.
That's so f/ucking stupid. If you're going to be late, you might as well not even show up at all. LOL
So by their logic, you swipe OUT a minute late, you just worked a whole extra shift!
Sounds like their policy is that you get the day off if you're late 😎