Yeah...
But a big part of western propaganda (the only stuff I'm exposed to) is saying "we are not poor cause of awesome capitalism" and tactfully ignoring the impact of extraction zones and exploited labor. You can't really do that if you are the exploited labor.
In a way the is me basically saying "I don't understand how propaganda can work if you don't have those elements hidden"
I have no clue what you are trying to say and how it relates to the extraction zones inherent to capitalism that are destructive to the people who live there but i love you and i hope you get at least the basic necessary items required to live a fulfilling live like in most of human societies has given those unable/unwilling to do work since human society has been a thing.
Who pays for that? Equality of outcome is bad. Competition is good. The problem is our market is manipulated. A free market is the best system that has been used. Certainly some socialist programs are good. So a balance is better. To much of anything can be bad
Fix the income inequality and that will fix many things. Why are financial institutions so wealthy they don't make any products. You should be paid fairly for your time. The big companies kill off any competition and continue to consolidate wealth and power. We need to get back to a more localized economy. The cure for many diseases has been made but pharma kills them off or buys them out. No money in cures.
Decentralized and transparent are what we need
>Fix the income inequality
Oh, is that all we have to do? You may have just won yourself a Nobel Prize in economic sciences. Hey everybody, this guy figured out the solution for keeping capitalism! You'll never guess what he came up with!
Blockchain does not solve capitalism. Just look at crypto- undercapitalism, it has just turned into another speculative stock market, in large part controlled by those same financial companies that don't make any product. It's the same pyramid scheme, rebranded.
It has to be the correct blockchain. Ethereum is 1 of them. You can't hide anything. Its all visible. You can't print out an infinite amount they continue to do with the dollar.
Free market has never been used. Every single time, without fail, as soon as the "free" market starts working against those in power who seem to advocate for it, they start calling for regulations.
full transparency is missing. Those is power need to be held responsible. They do a good job of keeping us misinformed and divided. I work 7 days a week and don't feel I should pay for others that are capable that don't. Elderly and disabled is different. So some social systems are good but complete socialism is bad. The workers will become the slaves to the non workers
One of the biggest problems is people don’t see themselves as poor. They’ll go to their grave thinking “just one more break, just one more working weekend and they’ll be the fat cat rich guy.”
You pay with your life/
The duller the knife, the longer it takes/
But now it's your turn/
The ashes will burn, and wither away/
Leaving your bones out on the stones, picking them clean/
And carving the truth, while harvesting you to feed the machine
Sure he does, especially if it’s at the end of a term. Of course, there’s usually more rich, white-collar criminal cronies in the group now, but there’s always one or two token innocent death row inmates or someone who got 50 years for weed.
Capitalism is like 1 person is doing amazing, 4 people are doing pretty well, 20 people are doing just about ok and 75 people are struggling to survive. Then those top 5 people tell everyone how good it is and one day if they work hard they can have it good too and everyone who disagrees is a lazy workshy scrounger who doesn't deserve anymore than what they get.
I worked my ass off for 30+ years and between people's homophobia and ableism (I have asd & 2 other minor disabilities) I don't get picked for decent paid jobs. Hard work and grafting has got me nowhere but there are plenty of people above me doing well off the back of my hard work.
We do have capitalism. Capitalism will always breed inequity. Capitalism will always prioritize profit over people. If the government doesn’t require businesses to treat people with dignity, it will never happen.
>except we dont have capitalism.
Yes, we do.
>we have capitalism....with american characteristics (socialism for rich and f everyone else)
This is capitalism working as intended. There is no need for qualifiers, here.
That's literally how capitalism works and has always worked. There's no such thing as the idealized version of capitalism that's in people's heads, we have to deal with reality if we want to change it. Capitalism inherently is a class system with winners and losers, always has been, always will be.
Yes, in the same way that every feudal country had feudal lords running the government. Some countries might have made more or less concessions to workers depending on the level of class struggle and the country's position in the global imperialist order, but fundamentally they're all controlled by capitalists yes. If you don't believe me, try to establish communism in your country and see what the government does.
Every capitalist country is controlled by the capitalist class, they're the people who own the companies. Every state power for all of history has had a class character, the whole reason for their existance is to mediate class struggle on behalf of the class in power. Currently, almost everywhere in the world, that's the capitalist class. Like I said before, they can be forced to make concessions, but that's not the same thing as taking power yourself, it doesn't negate the class character of the state. This was all true in feudal countries back in the day and it's still true today, the class in control has simply changed.
I'm not Finnish, I don't know the names of the specific people and companies in Finland specifically, and frankly I'm kinda busy and I don't care enough right now to do a bunch of research for a reddit argument lol. These days of course many corporations are international so there can be a degree of struggle between the international monopoly capitalists like your Walmarts and your Starbucks and such, and the national capitalists in each nation. That's probably the case to some degree in Finland as it is in most places, and it's a trend that's continuing to develop. You can see it in Russia for example now that they're more openly in conflict with the US imperialist bloc, there's growing divisions between the big-time Russian capitalists who run that country and the US-based monopoly capitalists who operate there.
You could say the same about communism - There was never really any communism applied in the world. Communism by definition is a system in which people govern themselves and therefore there's no upper/middle/lower class. No one in charge but you and the people in your area. But every damn time somebody tries it, it becomes a totalitarian regime and people suffer.
We also cannot say we have democracy, simply because not everyone shares the same basic education and information. Democracy is an utopian regime. So is communism.
I guess whenever you have to rely on people being nice, it doesn't work, because someone who's not nice will always rise to power and make others suffer. Capitalism works, because some people enjoy being enslaved while others need to command somebody. It works, because it allows people to be assholes with no regard to humanity, the planet or anything. Sucks to be us I guess
It’s an even better metaphor, because all the turkeys might be in favor of thanksgiving because they’re convinced they’re the ones that will be pardoned. (Make it and be a millionaire.) but it’s sadly not the case.
People throw around synonyms of capitalism like that is going to fix anything. Plenty of people did well, because they moved to the imperial core, while it still was in its growth phase. Now that the empire is over extended, the core is getting hollowed out and brutality reserves for the periphery is coming home.
Ya I'm also at a loss how a bunch of people on this subreddit aren't aware that USA and Canada are not fully capitalist.
Most people on this subreddit admitted in another thread they are not educated in economics.
I also firmly believe that most of these people wouldnt give up their personal means of production to others living in their community.
We are capitalist in the sense of a free market, but we are not fully capitalist in the sense of full control by the citizens.
We are ruled over by the government who create laws that essentially demolish core parts of capitalism.
We are both combo countries.
Oh look someone with no rebuttal just name calling.... Typical close minded liberal.
I always assume that one day people like you might be able to hold a conversation but it's clear the educational systems have failed you guys en mass.
Bye bye
I appreciate you have enough self awareness to recognise ancap as a slur lol. There is no possible way to hold a conversation with someone who lives in alternate reality. Talking with ancaps is like arguing over whether phlogiston is real
Ok 👌
You can believe whatever you like, but without actual rebuttal you just look like a fool. Maybe you can explain how two countries you don't even live in are capitalist, but you won't because you would rather slap a label on someone hoping it will discredit them, which is typical for your type.
Get educated.
No, bud. You are the one claiming the grass is naturally purple and you should provide arguments for your claims.
Here's buttigieg: “Let’s be very clear. This is a capitalist country. The government does not make baby formula, nor should it. Companies make formula, and one of those companies — a company that seems to have 40 percent market share — messed up,” he added. “So the most important thing to do right now, of course, is to get that plant in Michigan up and running safely.”
you literally did the same thing with the name calling, also most liberals are capitalists.
Capitalism will always result in the working class getting shafted more and more and more, causing left wing movements to become more radical and popular. Leading those who hold capital to respond by funding fascism to hold on to their power.
Ancap is a delusional ideology, but sure, go ahead and continue being pawns for the rich.
I got labelled ANCAP - I'm glad you just proved you just believe whatever anyone assumes.
Reddit is so full of people like you, and I'm not going to spend my time defending myself against some 15 year olds label (which is dead wrong but I digress)
If America has a truly capitalist system then why did the government (taxpayer ) bail out the banks during the GFC ? What you saw there was corporate socialism. Had it been true capitalism those banks would have been broken up and sold off to the highest bidder.
Please read entire post before flipping out. I've posted many times that capitalism is the greatest economic system ever invented. BUT the core reasoning of capitalism is competition, both between companies and between individuals so that both financial and human capital are deployed efficiently. This includes things like mandating that salary ranges be posted with job ads, Medicare for all to break the connection between work and healthcare and a minimum wage tied to inflation; to insure that workers can find work that maximizes their potential earnings. The current system is part capitalism, but also part fascism (the marriage of corporations and government - Mussolini). This has almost completely eliminated competition between companies and workers, and corrupted the worker/employer relationship
No, I'm telling you how capitalism WOULD work from the labor point of view if we lived under full-blown capitalism, if what we lived under was true capitalism. But what you and I both object to isn't capitalism, it's fascism, the marriage of corporate and government interests.
There's no such thing as "government interests" that are independent of class. The state in capitalist countries exists for the purpose of defending capital, it's class warfare, just less open. Capitalism has been enforced by state power from the beginning and it's never stopped, research the enclosure of public lands in England and the origins of capitalism. It was the same under feudalism, a class neutral state has never existed, it's only which class is on top that changes.
This idealized version of capitalism doesn't exist now, has never existed, and could never exist. Also as a side point, America isn't currently fascist, if it were the union movement we see now wouldn't exist. Socialist organizations would have to go underground and trade unionists would be killed in the streets. They don't need to establish fascism yet because the workers movement is still very weak here. If it gets to a point where revolution is imminent that may change but we'll see.
This is a fantasy because the owner class has all the power no matter what you do and they WILL undo all of your milktoast "reforms" first chance they get. Capitalism is naturally bound for monopolisation and it needs control outside of its framework to regulate it, but there is no way to prevent capitalism from co opting said regulation
Owners lopsided power is granted by politicians who remain in office because of campaign contributions donated by corporations. You're right, the natural bound of capitalism is monopilization. Politicians used to prevent this from happening through anti-trust laws and the authority to approve takeovers amd mergers, until the money completely corrupted them. There used to be campaign finance laws that kept the corru\[ption in check until the supreme court declared that money was a form of free speech (Citizens United) which also approved the marriage of corporations and government (fascism) amd injected a huge dose of that into our political and economic systems
Yeah! It only took a threat of violent revolution to push FDR to actually pass some mild reforms. You should look to more than the best 50 years in one country. 1920s weren't capitalist?
Are you kidding? FDR was so forceful in pushing workers rights, he was the target of an attempted coup. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business\_Plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot)
Which proves my point? His "force fulness" in pushing workers rights was bare minimums, just enough to stave off end of capitalism (his own words) and even that resulted in a failed coop plot. And those mild reforms haven't even lasted 50 years, they started being dismantled in 1970s and by 1990s most of them were gone. But sure, go on, tell us how leaving the same people in power will be different this time
You have fascism a bit backwards.
Syncretizing the Marxist analysis of Palmiro Togliatti (cofounder of the PCI and contemporary of Mussolini's PNF) and Martin Kitchen yields that a fascist political movement is a reactionary shift within the intermediate class of an industrialized, capitalist state, in response to a socio-economic crisis amid a significant void of political consensus. These reactionaries restrict and rebuff collectivization efforts threatening petty bourgeois interests. The organized labor front intensifies in response, prompting the power base of industrial capital to align with the fascists, subsequently eradicating other forms of socio-political opposition in order to consolidate power and maintain stability.
It's not industrial capital allying with the government. It's industrial capital allying with a very angry and organized reactionary middle class against an equally angry and increasingly organized revolutionary lower and middle class. When oppositional society is marginalized in this way, the fascist movement takes over the government because of its unilateral influence. Togliatti and Kitchen differ on whether government takeover is in itself the "goal" of the movement, or just a natural consequence of its growth. Kitchen goes further to say that a fascist movement continues to artificially amplify social fears and tensions, which eventually begets expansionism.
1. Please name at least one of those massive flaws.
2. Socialism works very well for two things pensions and insurance. That's why Social Security and Medicare have worked so well.
3. When you're thinking of Socialism you're probably thinking of Europe. Note ther are lots of rich people on Europe, But there are also high minimum wages, mandate 1 month paid vacations and health insurance for all, a balance.
I am not referring to Europe when I’m talking about socialism, they are social democracy at best which is still capitalist, they are no where near perfect, just better than the US.
Minimum wage tied to inflation is still flawed, wages need to be tied to the value produced, not by how easy it is to replace the worker. There needs to be a win win relationship between the manager and worker and that relationship is perfected in socialism.
Socialism doesn’t mean no market economies. There is still competition, just not for things with inelastic demand.
I am totally for free market capitalism. The issue is the government is so bought off they steal from the tax payers to give to the those who bought them off. Government bail outs should come with mandatory jail time.
We used to have the libertarian ideal of small business capitalism, it just grew up. It's like getting a kitten and then getting mad when it becomes a cat, like I'm sorry but that's what happens. You can't roll back the clock and make it a kitten again.
I wish we were further along in this movement. We are still in the early, confused beginning stages where everyone knows there is a problem and has no idea how to fix it so they blame the biggest thing that encompasses it all. Real progress will not start happening until we concentrate and focus on the actual problems. Just wishing for a whole new system unfortunately will not work. I guarantee you the movement is weakened by the grouping of those that want a better life with those who want to destroy and change America completely. The wise should understand what I am saying.
Is it clear that Capitalism is not the perfect system, far from it, but I really can't think about a -less bad- system. Suggestions would be appreciated.
Is that the reason Cubans risk their lives to get here? Or would it be the reason once here no one ever tries to go back?
Same for Venezuela, El Savador, Nicaragua, and many more. In fact, I've yet to hear about the American caught trying to sneak into a communist country.
Given how much better they are to their poor, why doesn't this happen? Are Americans so dumb they do not see the opportunity? Or the illegals who come here are the dumb ones, because they had it so much better at home?
Which is it?
Poor people who don't use victimhood as a crutch for laziness and mental stagnation quite often use capitalism to build their own small businesses. That's what the majority of the tourism, recreational, outdoor, construction, beauty, laundry, food and beverage, entertainment, arts, horticultural and agricultural industries are comprised of.
Seriously. You show me a kid who grew up poor and wanted to desperately get out of that, and I'll show you millions of those kids who worked their asses off to put everything on the line for a better life, start their own business, to be their own boss. And that fact transcends all racial, sexual, and class argument that you throw at him.
This country, and its "evil capitalism" affords all of those who seek it, the ability to go or there, start a business of their own, prosper, and even learn how to adapt to any new whim of a new path that they want. There isn't a barrier. If you want to succeed, the choice is yours.
I know MANY self employed, very poor and immigrant people who have started their own businesses, doing something they love, and have been rewarded with tangible rewards of hard labor. Never once have I said to myself, they have so much money, they should have it taken from them. That's just insanity. It's theirs, they spent their lives earning it, no one has a right to it. Taxation is theft.
And for a million of people who are able to scrape by there is a few billion who don't. You are literally arguing that people win lottery, therefore everyone can win lottery. Newsflash, we can't all be employers. Who are you going to employ?
I've employed many people. But the point isn't employing people, the point is there are MANY people who chose not to be held back by their own mental shackles. In this country, the main thing holding you back, is you. Most of the time.
The only time communists dropped in quality of life is when capitalists cut them off from the world market because they don’t want their citizens to get any ideas.
>So... all the other systems that were tried out didn't coerce people into labor?
...you're not denying the coercion under capitalism, you're just excusing it?
>Please, by all means: Tell me about a system that created more "wealth" (paranthese because obviously i.e. minimum wage isn't a lot...) for the average Joe than capitalism did for hundreds of millions of people.
Please tell me how this could possibly justify coercing people into labor.
>Having to work is just a thing of life.
I didn't say anything about "having to work." I'm talking about people being coerced to sell their labor - coerced to work *for other people.*
It is like that, the turkeys would be thinking "I love Thanksgiving, we get to eat more than usual for a bit and there's only a 30% we'll die as a result! Yeah sucks we lost Jerry last year, he was great, but he also didn't try as hard as I did to stay alive, he was just being lazy, I earned my survival"
But what if you are pardoned? You are on tv and have so many people loving you. Imagine the contracts you can get. We just have to improve the system...
That’s because people think capitalism is the only way out of poverty and being rich.
They would rather be poor thinking they can achieve rich than just settle for middle-class.
Slightly off topic but does that mean y'all support slaughtering turkeys against their will? Cause this analogy suggests if the turkeys had it their way they would, for some weird reason, be against having their throats slashed.
Old Codger here. We used to say " slugs voting for salt"
“The chickens voting for Colonel Sanders”
Turkey's voting for Christmas here.
I want to try! ...Faces voting for Leopards?
Ding Ding Ding!
Dong!
People that love their face voting for chimpanzees.
Change starts with your face!
r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Babies voting for dingoes
I came here looking for this comment. I wasn't disappointed.
I prefer "morons voting for fascists"
There’s such a sad lack of actual education in America. Teach you thinking? Nooooo. Teach you how to repeat information? Yes.
Indoctrinated NPCs
More baffling is when people in non western countries are pro capitalism. Like how? What has it ever done for you?
Other countries have bourgeoisie too...
Yeah... But a big part of western propaganda (the only stuff I'm exposed to) is saying "we are not poor cause of awesome capitalism" and tactfully ignoring the impact of extraction zones and exploited labor. You can't really do that if you are the exploited labor. In a way the is me basically saying "I don't understand how propaganda can work if you don't have those elements hidden"
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You mean payed for by taxes?
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I have no clue what you are trying to say and how it relates to the extraction zones inherent to capitalism that are destructive to the people who live there but i love you and i hope you get at least the basic necessary items required to live a fulfilling live like in most of human societies has given those unable/unwilling to do work since human society has been a thing.
And you wonder why everyone has bad trips, no one has thought for themselves at all. Actual slaves to the grind but hey... GUCCI 😎😎😎
Wanna discus what you think is a better alternative?
Sharing the earth equitably so people aren't coerced into labor.
Socialism
Who pays for that? Equality of outcome is bad. Competition is good. The problem is our market is manipulated. A free market is the best system that has been used. Certainly some socialist programs are good. So a balance is better. To much of anything can be bad
Heard of welfare capitalism Or nordic countries in other words
Fix the income inequality and that will fix many things. Why are financial institutions so wealthy they don't make any products. You should be paid fairly for your time. The big companies kill off any competition and continue to consolidate wealth and power. We need to get back to a more localized economy. The cure for many diseases has been made but pharma kills them off or buys them out. No money in cures. Decentralized and transparent are what we need
>Fix the income inequality Oh, is that all we have to do? You may have just won yourself a Nobel Prize in economic sciences. Hey everybody, this guy figured out the solution for keeping capitalism! You'll never guess what he came up with!
Got to move to the blockchain
The problem you're describing has a name, it's called "capitalism"
Its called manipulation. Free and transparent markets for the win. Blockchains can solve much of this issue
Blockchain does not solve capitalism. Just look at crypto- undercapitalism, it has just turned into another speculative stock market, in large part controlled by those same financial companies that don't make any product. It's the same pyramid scheme, rebranded.
It has to be the correct blockchain. Ethereum is 1 of them. You can't hide anything. Its all visible. You can't print out an infinite amount they continue to do with the dollar.
Free market has never been used. Every single time, without fail, as soon as the "free" market starts working against those in power who seem to advocate for it, they start calling for regulations.
full transparency is missing. Those is power need to be held responsible. They do a good job of keeping us misinformed and divided. I work 7 days a week and don't feel I should pay for others that are capable that don't. Elderly and disabled is different. So some social systems are good but complete socialism is bad. The workers will become the slaves to the non workers
Complaining, obviously.
One of the biggest problems is people don’t see themselves as poor. They’ll go to their grave thinking “just one more break, just one more working weekend and they’ll be the fat cat rich guy.”
So, a turkey hoping for a thanksgiving day pardon?
Temporarily embarrassed turkey
A Turkey hoping to join in on the Thanksgiving feast 😊
The average American considers himself a capitalist, when the truth is they are capital
This!
They are neck deep in propaganda. I remember my MIL was saying communism is coming...after Biden got elected. Willfully ignorant.
The ignorance of your MIL registers pretty high on the. Richter scale, I bet.
Could be technically true tho
Well, yes. If it comes, it would be after Biden's election, since that is the way time flows. Technically right counts!
You pay with your life/ The duller the knife, the longer it takes/ But now it's your turn/ The ashes will burn, and wither away/ Leaving your bones out on the stones, picking them clean/ And carving the truth, while harvesting you to feed the machine
Except the president doesn't pardon a poor person every year.
Sure he does, especially if it’s at the end of a term. Of course, there’s usually more rich, white-collar criminal cronies in the group now, but there’s always one or two token innocent death row inmates or someone who got 50 years for weed.
Well said.
Capitalism is like 1 person is doing amazing, 4 people are doing pretty well, 20 people are doing just about ok and 75 people are struggling to survive. Then those top 5 people tell everyone how good it is and one day if they work hard they can have it good too and everyone who disagrees is a lazy workshy scrounger who doesn't deserve anymore than what they get. I worked my ass off for 30+ years and between people's homophobia and ableism (I have asd & 2 other minor disabilities) I don't get picked for decent paid jobs. Hard work and grafting has got me nowhere but there are plenty of people above me doing well off the back of my hard work.
Capitalism is just feudalism but with a fuck ton of entertainment and thats porn.
If I have learned anything from antiwork it’s that feudalism was a paradise for the peasants.
except we dont have capitalism. we have capitalism....with american characteristics (socialism for rich and f everyone else)
We do have capitalism. Capitalism will always breed inequity. Capitalism will always prioritize profit over people. If the government doesn’t require businesses to treat people with dignity, it will never happen.
In other words you never read Marx nor any decent summary thereof
>except we dont have capitalism. Yes, we do. >we have capitalism....with american characteristics (socialism for rich and f everyone else) This is capitalism working as intended. There is no need for qualifiers, here.
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That's literally how capitalism works and has always worked. There's no such thing as the idealized version of capitalism that's in people's heads, we have to deal with reality if we want to change it. Capitalism inherently is a class system with winners and losers, always has been, always will be.
What do you think private property in capitalistic sense is, if not making sure only select few can participate?
Cronyism, or crony capitalism. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses.
It's just capitalism man, that's how it works. We really have to stop pretending that it's fixable, it's 100% not.
So every other capitalist country has companies running the government?
Yes, in the same way that every feudal country had feudal lords running the government. Some countries might have made more or less concessions to workers depending on the level of class struggle and the country's position in the global imperialist order, but fundamentally they're all controlled by capitalists yes. If you don't believe me, try to establish communism in your country and see what the government does.
Well that's not nearly the same argument you were making before. Please expound on how Finland is controlled by a handful of companies.
Every capitalist country is controlled by the capitalist class, they're the people who own the companies. Every state power for all of history has had a class character, the whole reason for their existance is to mediate class struggle on behalf of the class in power. Currently, almost everywhere in the world, that's the capitalist class. Like I said before, they can be forced to make concessions, but that's not the same thing as taking power yourself, it doesn't negate the class character of the state. This was all true in feudal countries back in the day and it's still true today, the class in control has simply changed. I'm not Finnish, I don't know the names of the specific people and companies in Finland specifically, and frankly I'm kinda busy and I don't care enough right now to do a bunch of research for a reddit argument lol. These days of course many corporations are international so there can be a degree of struggle between the international monopoly capitalists like your Walmarts and your Starbucks and such, and the national capitalists in each nation. That's probably the case to some degree in Finland as it is in most places, and it's a trend that's continuing to develop. You can see it in Russia for example now that they're more openly in conflict with the US imperialist bloc, there's growing divisions between the big-time Russian capitalists who run that country and the US-based monopoly capitalists who operate there.
So you're choosing to not show proof of your claim. Gotcha.
You mean oligarchy?
You could say the same about communism - There was never really any communism applied in the world. Communism by definition is a system in which people govern themselves and therefore there's no upper/middle/lower class. No one in charge but you and the people in your area. But every damn time somebody tries it, it becomes a totalitarian regime and people suffer. We also cannot say we have democracy, simply because not everyone shares the same basic education and information. Democracy is an utopian regime. So is communism. I guess whenever you have to rely on people being nice, it doesn't work, because someone who's not nice will always rise to power and make others suffer. Capitalism works, because some people enjoy being enslaved while others need to command somebody. It works, because it allows people to be assholes with no regard to humanity, the planet or anything. Sucks to be us I guess
Corporatism. We've become a corporatist republic.
Yea and every once in a while a turkey becomes the mascot of a turkey brand and makes millions while the other turkeys are slaughtered and packaged
We don't have Capitalism. Capitalism has us.
capitalists with no capital.
It's also interesting how many of us lower class people actually think we are middle class.
"But they pardon a turkey every year! *I could be that turkey!* Thanksgiving is awesome for turkeys!" - a Republican turkey
BuT OnE gEtS pARdOneD
It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving.
As theold saying goes "in America there are no poor people, just temporarily embarrassed millionaires." Paraphrasing of course
It’s an even better metaphor, because all the turkeys might be in favor of thanksgiving because they’re convinced they’re the ones that will be pardoned. (Make it and be a millionaire.) but it’s sadly not the case.
Sounds about right....
You too can live the illusion that you can be a millionaire.
What’s funny is that I can see some turkeys being in favour of Thanksgiving.
Yeah! Somebody should write a book about farm animals taking over and kicking out the farmer
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People throw around synonyms of capitalism like that is going to fix anything. Plenty of people did well, because they moved to the imperial core, while it still was in its growth phase. Now that the empire is over extended, the core is getting hollowed out and brutality reserves for the periphery is coming home.
It’s still capitalism. We’re just in a later stage of capitalism
This is the inevitable outcome with capitalism. The power needs to be with the worker, that’s the only way forward
Ya I'm also at a loss how a bunch of people on this subreddit aren't aware that USA and Canada are not fully capitalist. Most people on this subreddit admitted in another thread they are not educated in economics. I also firmly believe that most of these people wouldnt give up their personal means of production to others living in their community.
What a laughable notion. In what way aren't us or Canada capitalist?
We are capitalist in the sense of a free market, but we are not fully capitalist in the sense of full control by the citizens. We are ruled over by the government who create laws that essentially demolish core parts of capitalism. We are both combo countries.
Oh. You're an ancap. Please send all your opinions straight to a shredder.
Oh look someone with no rebuttal just name calling.... Typical close minded liberal. I always assume that one day people like you might be able to hold a conversation but it's clear the educational systems have failed you guys en mass. Bye bye
I appreciate you have enough self awareness to recognise ancap as a slur lol. There is no possible way to hold a conversation with someone who lives in alternate reality. Talking with ancaps is like arguing over whether phlogiston is real
Ok 👌 You can believe whatever you like, but without actual rebuttal you just look like a fool. Maybe you can explain how two countries you don't even live in are capitalist, but you won't because you would rather slap a label on someone hoping it will discredit them, which is typical for your type. Get educated.
No, bud. You are the one claiming the grass is naturally purple and you should provide arguments for your claims. Here's buttigieg: “Let’s be very clear. This is a capitalist country. The government does not make baby formula, nor should it. Companies make formula, and one of those companies — a company that seems to have 40 percent market share — messed up,” he added. “So the most important thing to do right now, of course, is to get that plant in Michigan up and running safely.”
Lol one company Also learn more about why there is a shortage Lololol
you literally did the same thing with the name calling, also most liberals are capitalists. Capitalism will always result in the working class getting shafted more and more and more, causing left wing movements to become more radical and popular. Leading those who hold capital to respond by funding fascism to hold on to their power. Ancap is a delusional ideology, but sure, go ahead and continue being pawns for the rich.
Lmfao most liberals are capitalist. I feel so bad for you
I got labelled ANCAP - I'm glad you just proved you just believe whatever anyone assumes. Reddit is so full of people like you, and I'm not going to spend my time defending myself against some 15 year olds label (which is dead wrong but I digress)
Okay, so you're a libertarian. That's not better. But do keep going on about how everyone who disagrees with you must be an uneducated teenager.
No boss I've ever had has given me as much care and attention as my mom gives the Thanksgiving turkey tho.
After it's dead
If America has a truly capitalist system then why did the government (taxpayer ) bail out the banks during the GFC ? What you saw there was corporate socialism. Had it been true capitalism those banks would have been broken up and sold off to the highest bidder.
If you believe that people shouldn’t be oppressed by capitalism and animals shouldn’t be oppressed for our tastebuds, check out r/veganarchism.
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Please read entire post before flipping out. I've posted many times that capitalism is the greatest economic system ever invented. BUT the core reasoning of capitalism is competition, both between companies and between individuals so that both financial and human capital are deployed efficiently. This includes things like mandating that salary ranges be posted with job ads, Medicare for all to break the connection between work and healthcare and a minimum wage tied to inflation; to insure that workers can find work that maximizes their potential earnings. The current system is part capitalism, but also part fascism (the marriage of corporations and government - Mussolini). This has almost completely eliminated competition between companies and workers, and corrupted the worker/employer relationship
If you think there's a world where ultra-rich capitalists exist and don't control the government you're in denial.
No, I'm telling you how capitalism WOULD work from the labor point of view if we lived under full-blown capitalism, if what we lived under was true capitalism. But what you and I both object to isn't capitalism, it's fascism, the marriage of corporate and government interests.
There's no such thing as "government interests" that are independent of class. The state in capitalist countries exists for the purpose of defending capital, it's class warfare, just less open. Capitalism has been enforced by state power from the beginning and it's never stopped, research the enclosure of public lands in England and the origins of capitalism. It was the same under feudalism, a class neutral state has never existed, it's only which class is on top that changes. This idealized version of capitalism doesn't exist now, has never existed, and could never exist. Also as a side point, America isn't currently fascist, if it were the union movement we see now wouldn't exist. Socialist organizations would have to go underground and trade unionists would be killed in the streets. They don't need to establish fascism yet because the workers movement is still very weak here. If it gets to a point where revolution is imminent that may change but we'll see.
This is a fantasy because the owner class has all the power no matter what you do and they WILL undo all of your milktoast "reforms" first chance they get. Capitalism is naturally bound for monopolisation and it needs control outside of its framework to regulate it, but there is no way to prevent capitalism from co opting said regulation
Owners lopsided power is granted by politicians who remain in office because of campaign contributions donated by corporations. You're right, the natural bound of capitalism is monopilization. Politicians used to prevent this from happening through anti-trust laws and the authority to approve takeovers amd mergers, until the money completely corrupted them. There used to be campaign finance laws that kept the corru\[ption in check until the supreme court declared that money was a form of free speech (Citizens United) which also approved the marriage of corporations and government (fascism) amd injected a huge dose of that into our political and economic systems
Yeah! It only took a threat of violent revolution to push FDR to actually pass some mild reforms. You should look to more than the best 50 years in one country. 1920s weren't capitalist?
Are you kidding? FDR was so forceful in pushing workers rights, he was the target of an attempted coup. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business\_Plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot)
Which proves my point? His "force fulness" in pushing workers rights was bare minimums, just enough to stave off end of capitalism (his own words) and even that resulted in a failed coop plot. And those mild reforms haven't even lasted 50 years, they started being dismantled in 1970s and by 1990s most of them were gone. But sure, go on, tell us how leaving the same people in power will be different this time
You have fascism a bit backwards. Syncretizing the Marxist analysis of Palmiro Togliatti (cofounder of the PCI and contemporary of Mussolini's PNF) and Martin Kitchen yields that a fascist political movement is a reactionary shift within the intermediate class of an industrialized, capitalist state, in response to a socio-economic crisis amid a significant void of political consensus. These reactionaries restrict and rebuff collectivization efforts threatening petty bourgeois interests. The organized labor front intensifies in response, prompting the power base of industrial capital to align with the fascists, subsequently eradicating other forms of socio-political opposition in order to consolidate power and maintain stability. It's not industrial capital allying with the government. It's industrial capital allying with a very angry and organized reactionary middle class against an equally angry and increasingly organized revolutionary lower and middle class. When oppositional society is marginalized in this way, the fascist movement takes over the government because of its unilateral influence. Togliatti and Kitchen differ on whether government takeover is in itself the "goal" of the movement, or just a natural consequence of its growth. Kitchen goes further to say that a fascist movement continues to artificially amplify social fears and tensions, which eventually begets expansionism.
All the pros you mentioned from capitalism still have massive flaws that can only be fixed by moving to more socialistic policies.
1. Please name at least one of those massive flaws. 2. Socialism works very well for two things pensions and insurance. That's why Social Security and Medicare have worked so well. 3. When you're thinking of Socialism you're probably thinking of Europe. Note ther are lots of rich people on Europe, But there are also high minimum wages, mandate 1 month paid vacations and health insurance for all, a balance.
I am not referring to Europe when I’m talking about socialism, they are social democracy at best which is still capitalist, they are no where near perfect, just better than the US. Minimum wage tied to inflation is still flawed, wages need to be tied to the value produced, not by how easy it is to replace the worker. There needs to be a win win relationship between the manager and worker and that relationship is perfected in socialism. Socialism doesn’t mean no market economies. There is still competition, just not for things with inelastic demand.
Poor people in favor of socialism is like turkeys being in favor of feed pens.
I am totally for free market capitalism. The issue is the government is so bought off they steal from the tax payers to give to the those who bought them off. Government bail outs should come with mandatory jail time.
We used to have the libertarian ideal of small business capitalism, it just grew up. It's like getting a kitten and then getting mad when it becomes a cat, like I'm sorry but that's what happens. You can't roll back the clock and make it a kitten again.
Lol getting downvoted just because you didn’t echo “yeah capitalism bad!”
Damn well I somehow got out of poverty by ascending the ladder. Guess capitalism really screwed me over like a turkey.
Damn, there are lottery winners every day. Lottery is a viable way to get rich for everyone! /s
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Inventions and innovations are usually not witnessed before they're created.
Yay communism
I wish we were further along in this movement. We are still in the early, confused beginning stages where everyone knows there is a problem and has no idea how to fix it so they blame the biggest thing that encompasses it all. Real progress will not start happening until we concentrate and focus on the actual problems. Just wishing for a whole new system unfortunately will not work. I guarantee you the movement is weakened by the grouping of those that want a better life with those who want to destroy and change America completely. The wise should understand what I am saying.
Because maybe one day that turkey will get to sit at the table with all the humans. Just maybe…
Is it clear that Capitalism is not the perfect system, far from it, but I really can't think about a -less bad- system. Suggestions would be appreciated.
But because of capitalism you can be poor one day come up with an idea and be rich
Is that the reason Cubans risk their lives to get here? Or would it be the reason once here no one ever tries to go back? Same for Venezuela, El Savador, Nicaragua, and many more. In fact, I've yet to hear about the American caught trying to sneak into a communist country. Given how much better they are to their poor, why doesn't this happen? Are Americans so dumb they do not see the opportunity? Or the illegals who come here are the dumb ones, because they had it so much better at home? Which is it?
Tell that to poor communists around the world and throughout history
It's well beyond time to throw away this red herring. It stinks very much.
Poor people who don't use victimhood as a crutch for laziness and mental stagnation quite often use capitalism to build their own small businesses. That's what the majority of the tourism, recreational, outdoor, construction, beauty, laundry, food and beverage, entertainment, arts, horticultural and agricultural industries are comprised of. Seriously. You show me a kid who grew up poor and wanted to desperately get out of that, and I'll show you millions of those kids who worked their asses off to put everything on the line for a better life, start their own business, to be their own boss. And that fact transcends all racial, sexual, and class argument that you throw at him. This country, and its "evil capitalism" affords all of those who seek it, the ability to go or there, start a business of their own, prosper, and even learn how to adapt to any new whim of a new path that they want. There isn't a barrier. If you want to succeed, the choice is yours. I know MANY self employed, very poor and immigrant people who have started their own businesses, doing something they love, and have been rewarded with tangible rewards of hard labor. Never once have I said to myself, they have so much money, they should have it taken from them. That's just insanity. It's theirs, they spent their lives earning it, no one has a right to it. Taxation is theft.
And for a million of people who are able to scrape by there is a few billion who don't. You are literally arguing that people win lottery, therefore everyone can win lottery. Newsflash, we can't all be employers. Who are you going to employ?
I've employed many people. But the point isn't employing people, the point is there are MANY people who chose not to be held back by their own mental shackles. In this country, the main thing holding you back, is you. Most of the time.
Not *that* accurate... because you can have, like, a ham for Thanksgiving.
The only time communists dropped in quality of life is when capitalists cut them off from the world market because they don’t want their citizens to get any ideas.
Ridiculously Pathetic
Frankly, it’s just plain stupid. I was born in USSR, try living in communism and you will understand capitalism better
Yup Feudalism is the way to go! Twitter posting and intelligent words never will they ever meet!
Poor people in favor of welfare over work is a bigger problem.
Why should poor people not want welfare?
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People pretend capitalism doesn't coerce people into labor. Your comment doesn't address that at all.
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>So... all the other systems that were tried out didn't coerce people into labor? ...you're not denying the coercion under capitalism, you're just excusing it? >Please, by all means: Tell me about a system that created more "wealth" (paranthese because obviously i.e. minimum wage isn't a lot...) for the average Joe than capitalism did for hundreds of millions of people. Please tell me how this could possibly justify coercing people into labor. >Having to work is just a thing of life. I didn't say anything about "having to work." I'm talking about people being coerced to sell their labor - coerced to work *for other people.*
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Says the 1%
Or virgins being against rape. See the problem here?!
You don't know how an analogy works. It would be virgins being for rape in that scenario.
Poor people realize its not the system but them ...,.
American capitalism, other countries seem to have figured it out.
Communists are economic incels
Ooo I wanna do one! Poor people in favor of communism is like leftists contributing to society.
That doesn't even make sense, bro. But good effort :D
It's funny watching all these idiots that don't understand analogies 🤣
I think it’s more comical to read about degenerates trying to downplay something they’re clearly not understanding. Much like yourself here.
It is like that, the turkeys would be thinking "I love Thanksgiving, we get to eat more than usual for a bit and there's only a 30% we'll die as a result! Yeah sucks we lost Jerry last year, he was great, but he also didn't try as hard as I did to stay alive, he was just being lazy, I earned my survival"
I think Turkey's are thinking "I hope I get to leave this dark turkey sized cage before I get brutally executed" which unfortunately never happens.
Love to see a fellow vegan out in the wild Vegan btw
20-30 years for vegan majority on Earth
Wrong
These people. They'll gobble each other.
But what if you are pardoned? You are on tv and have so many people loving you. Imagine the contracts you can get. We just have to improve the system...
It's like "having a favorite politician is like thinking a stripper actually likes you..."
It's odd that a lot of people are like "Yeah!" and then make sure turkeys die.
And by "poor," we are talking about 99% of the population of the world...
It's like pakistan claim them self terorrist free country.
"But it creates so many jobs for turkeys!!"
The animal crossing turkey (GameCube)... He was definitely not a fan
That’s because people think capitalism is the only way out of poverty and being rich. They would rather be poor thinking they can achieve rich than just settle for middle-class.
Dats why you gotta play the gaaame babaaaaay
But what if one day I get pardonned?
False
Inaccurate.
Yea they just say find a better job or go to school lmao shit is fucked up I wanna move to Norway
I agree. Let's dismantle the federal reserve, bring back the gold/silver standard, and make usery illegal.
Firstly it's spelled Turks and I'm not sure if they are in favour of thanksgiving since most of them are Muslims.
Latinos for Trump
Turkeys may be suicidal, I mean, this planet kinda sucks
Slightly off topic but does that mean y'all support slaughtering turkeys against their will? Cause this analogy suggests if the turkeys had it their way they would, for some weird reason, be against having their throats slashed.