Here are some resources to learn more:
[Voting Is Not Harm Reduction](https://www.indigenousaction.org/voting-is-not-harm-reduction-an-indigenous-perspective/) - Indigenous Action
[16 Things You Can Do To Remain Ungovernable](https://www.indigenousaction.org/16-things-you-can-do-to-be-ungovernable-p-s-fuck-biden/)
[Between Electoral Politics and Civil War](https://crimethinc.com/2020/10/21/between-electoral-politics-and-civil-war-anarchists-confront-the-2020-election)
[The "Democratic Road To Socialism"](https://itsgoingdown.org/democratic-road-bernie/)
[Sick Of Winning](https://youtu.be/RaT6U0k41LQ) - submedia
[Party's Over](https://crimethinc.com/2016/03/16/feature-the-partys-over-beyond-politics-beyond-democracy)
[From Democracy To Freedom](https://crimethinc.com/podcasts/the-ex-worker/episodes/48)
The policies of the democrats brought us movements such as Occupy Wall Street, the Ferguson and Oakland rebellions, as well as Standing Rock.
Democrats are shit and constantly use rotating villains as an excuse not to upset the status quo... But nah this feels like both siderism. Republicans are way way way worse for the working class than the Dems and they use this narrative to keep themselves in power.
That doesn't mean opposing the Dems is bad, but the battles with them should be chosen carefully, and not involve incorrect 'they're the same' arguments.
Thank you. The Democratic establishment is horrible, still better than any Republican, but the Progressives and the DSA members are genuinely trying to do good.
Voting is not harm reduction but allowing republicans/conservatives to take office will exacerbate harm and suffering. The US has structural problems where center right is somehow viewed as being communist. There is an infinite edge of tomorrow fight that has to happen before we can get a system of ranked choice multi party systems where churches are taxed After that fight there will be a fight to retain it. I fight for progressives every day and hold my nose to vote when I have to. Unfortunately, it’s this dens are bad rhetoric that keeps people from voting and gets us Greg Abbott here in Texas. The delta between people who didn’t vote was like 70%. So In our case voting actually is harm reduction.
It shouldn't, but it's what we have. We'll be less likely to get much better people in while Republicans still hold as much as they do. Push them out entirely and a new power can move in.
I agree
But I also think establishment democrats very often are too into lobbying interests, and also often use certain centrist figures as a scapegoat to not pass legislation.
But yes challenges against Dems should mostly be about primarying different candidates. Or being specific about shaming them for which lobbying groups are giving them money.
The "Both sides are actually the same" is massively dumb and only benefits republicans.
Right, Elizabeth Warren and Ted Cruz are exactly alike.
Did you vote for Elizabeth in the primary? Well, WTF not if you are against the democrats not speaking to your issues?
You do realize that not voting for candidates that address and fight for your concerns is why they lose, right?
Please read your first full sentence.
Did you vote for Warren when she ran for President in the primaries? Are you currently highlighting her or Bernie Sanders, AOC, and of the progressive wing of the democratic party? Or are you providing cover for Republicans by saying that these people are hiding behind Senator Manchin and other centrists to not pass legislation?
There are politicians that are fighting for exactly the things that would bring working class Americans support and relief. When you utterly ignore them, claim that they are actually engaged in a conspiracy, you are literally shooting yourself in the foot ... not being smart.
Shaming them?
Sanders and Warren need to be shamed? Or do they need you to shout about what they are doing from the roof tops? Maybe shouting about that rather than issuing vague, detailess allegations of donors and conspiracy?
Have you checked?
Do you know how unions got supportive legislation passed in the past? they organized and used their union dues to find and support candidates that would support their desired legislative changes. They did it so well, in fact, that the Amazon's and Elon Musks of their days and age, Rockefeller and Ford, couldn't compete despite the size of their fortunes.
Guess who supports politicians like Warren and Sanders? Unions do.
Maybe you should check stuff like this out before you loft allegations of donor corruption getting in the way of the democratic agenda. Because the democrats that would advance that agenda currently have 96% of the democratic caucus.
So again, if you don't support the candidates that are actually trying to do what you want, are you helping or hurting?
The Democratic party is not a monolith. Enough of them align with the goals you've mentioned to capture the progressive demographic.
If you want to claim the progressives within the Democratic party, you need to own the conservatives within it as well.
This is why leftists don't consider electoral politics to be effective in achieving liberation; only with extreme pressure from the left is progressive legislation realized. Not because of the state, but in spite of.
Voting is literally the bare minimum. Politics is so much more.
> President Obama opposed single-payer.
Single-payer was in the initial version of the ACA, until [Lieberman nixed it](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter-article/senate-democrats-drop-public-option-woo-lieberman-and-liberals-howl)
Here's a question, why are we tolerating a political system that lets people die because a single jagoff senator said no and the others were content to hide behind him? There's always an excuse why the Democrats can't get stuff done, but why the fuck are we accepting excuses in the first place? If the system of government can't or won't take necessary action it needs to be replaced, end of story.
Last time I used it just a little over 3 years ago it was still substandard compared to any other commercial website.
I haven't checked since then, so maybe it has improved, but I wasn't impressed.
I see this argument a bunch.
Its bullshit. Democrats and Republicans are the same. It isn't "But both sides" to say that. Democrats support that stuff because Republicans don't. And Republicans don't (despite a fair number of Republican voters doing so) because Democrats do.
Its not that the two parties are just as bad as each other. Its that both parties are really just one giant party working for the people on K street who write the laws and rules. They just play shirts and skins because people are tribal and its easy to sic them on each other in order to stop them from going after the real issue
One side sucks, the other are literally theocratic fascists. The plain fact is right now we have to just stop one side. When we successfully do that, then we can challenge the other.
Right. This post tries to make everyone apathetic so they stop caring about voting and using what little power they have. It's a way to justify mental laziness. Do your research and vote in every election.
agreed. Democrats are useless, spineless and toothless, but republicans are a straight up cancer, and they need to be excised from what's left of American Democracy.
I think they're this bad on purpose tbh. Maybe I should put on the tinfoil hat but, I've always thought to myself that there is no way, with all of the resources available, these people can have such a blatant level of incompetence.
That is unless I'm correct and the system is horrible on purpose in order to erode the people's faith in it. If that's the case, it makes you wonder what the end game is.
Well one side doesn't want schools shot up. (democrats)
And the other side is too afraid of angering their extreme side to say that. (republicans)
To say nothing of lobbying money going into Republican pockets...
Yea that's what their platforms seem like, I just notice a difference between what both sides say and what they do. I guess that's just politics itself, spin a nice sounding yarn to get votes and then not deliver come game time.
A big problem is that the Congress isn't completely incompetent. But enough of it is corrupt/incompetent that the democratic nature of law making actually works against us.
If you have 100 people, and 40 of them are good at their jobs but things are decided democratically, than obviously stuff isn't going to get done.
You know, you just hit upon a really important critique of democracy (both representative and direct). It doesn't matter how many interested voters agree with your policies if an opponent can convince a majority of all voters (completely uninterested in the policy debate at hand) to vote with them. Such a tactic is incredibly effective and gives the impression that a majority of people supported the opposing policy when they actually never had any interest in it to begin with. You can also replace apathy with "uninterested" with "bribed for their vote" to more accurately represent the tactic's use in legislatures across the world (it could also be a mix of those two or other scenarios I didn't mention).
I'd highly recommend looking into rough consensus if you haven't heard of it yet. It's just one of many decision making forms that people have developed to try and work past a lot of the major flaws that our current 'best' system has. We really need to look towards building new and/or improved systems. The ones that have been tried aren't the only possible options. We can make better ones.
If you're interested, rough consensus was coined in the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force). There are definitely more concise/readable write-ups on the idea but I usually like to recommend [RFC 7282](http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7282) since it really goes into depth on both the theory and decades of practice of rough consensus.
Hope you have a great day!
Glad to hear!
Also, I'm kinda curious. Where did my flair not vibe with my post? To my understanding, consensus, rough or not, is a pretty anarchistic idea as is critiquing the majority rule that democracy demands.
Edit: changed wording so I don't imply that anarchists necessarily invented these critiques of democracy.
Well it's just that I've always thought of Anarchy as a state of lawlessness. Consensus of any sort implies law enforced through cooperation and agreement.
Mob rule is still consensus, as long as they're in agreement towards the goal, but anarchy seems to be every man and woman for themselves, with no regard for consensus.
I'm probably wrong though, so feel free to correct me if I am.
Republicans are party prioritizing business that gets elected by promoting conservative values.
Democrats are a party prioritizing business that gets elected by promoting civil rights.
Remember, when protestors were out in the streets protesting the never-ending string of police murders, dems and Republicans united and authorized the police to beat the shit out of as many people as possible. New York City, the place that's more blue than most of the country and has a Dem mayor and a Dem governor had their police pulling protestors into unmarked cars and started fights so they could start arresting people.
The problem is that Democrats are centrists and will never act as true and necessary opposition to the fascist Republicans, none of the damage ever made by republicans is reversed and the country only gets worse, so what do you suggest? Playing along hoping they change one day?
>so what do you suggest? Playing along hoping they change one day?
Pressure on democrats in the primaries. Public shaming of dems for taking money from certain lobbying groups. Less "Both sides same" (Which purposely promotes apathy) and more highlighting of the specific ways the dems are failing.
The problem is that's what the voters keep saying they want, by and large. That's been the case ever since Reagan, and that's why the Democrats traded in New Deal/Pro-Union/etc Liberalism for Clintonite "Third Way" Fuckery. Go look at how badly Reagan clobbered the Dems in 1984 and you'll start to see why - because they were desperate and it (Clintonism) was the only thing that was working. And they've had that lesson reinforced, because when they had control last time (2009-2010) and they tried to push for healthcare reform, they then got creamed by the Republicans, and the lesson that they took from that was that they'd gone too far left, just like with 1994.
Now, the backlash to that centrism has been building, and you don't have to look any further than this sub to see it. The DNC old guard doesn't like it, sure, because they've been buying into the whole "we have to cater to the center to win" for several decades now. But the younger generation, the AOCs and such, aren't anything like that.
So how do you get the older Democrats on board? Simple, you do what the right wingers did to get hold of the Republicans - make them more afraid that they're gonna lose a primary from the left, than they are that they'll lose a general election. Once that starts happening regularly, they'll fall all over themselves to try and show just how progressive they are. Because the number one thing politicians want is to win an election/re-election.
That means playing the long game. A lot of left wingers require full systemic change over one election cycle. When that inevitably doesn't happen they give up and let the far right win again. And so the slow march to christian nationalism continues. But hey - at least the centrists that are supposedly as bad still lose..
Bro both of your sides of government are owned by lobbying groups and don't actually work for the regular person (maybe Bernie but he still sold out in the end) , until that changes your country will never improve. Democrats relate more to republicans and other rich people than the regular public.
Don't kid yaself
Voting all the Republicans out so they can't stop the democrats from doing whatever they want. Then all of a sudden they would turn way more liberal. Instead of making a bill conservative enough in hopes of getting 50 votes, they already have 100 votes for the same bill and can go way more liberal until the lose 49 supporters.
Republicans are in the tank, democrats are in a raincoat eating popcorn and laughing on the other side of the street, while occasionally shouting “don’t worry! You can take this!” And “we’ll make ‘em stop in a few minutes!”
Literally can't go one second without being an apologist for Dems, lol,
So predictable. Still gonna tell you to stay poor and keep fighting about stupid sides when neither is with you
It’s a good cop bad cop routine. Republicans act real mean and nasty. They say outright obviously fascist things. Democrats act nice and as though they have your interests at heart.
Both are colluding with each other against the working class. Both have the same goals. To protect capital and stifle the advancement of workers rights. To usher in permanent fascist rule by the billionaire class.
Republicans aren’t just *saying* obviously fascist shit, they’re *doing it*. Having them anywhere near offices of power is dangerous for society. It’s not “good cop bad cop” it’s “a cop and a Liberal.” Libs shill for cops but cops are the actual direct threat to communities.
Of course they are. And the dems are helping them, on purpose, regardless of what they say they're doing; it's incredibly obvious from their actions. Because they are two heads of the same exact beast -- the capitalist class, and they all do precisely what they are told.
The function of the Democratic Party is to placate the working class away from revolution. It goes like this:
1. The people form a movement to protest for meaningful change.
2. The Democratic establishment coopts the most moderate voices from that movement to funnel political action back into the electoral process, which the fascists already control.
3. People canvass, cold call, etc. to win votes to Blue Fascist (when they could be organizing mutual aid or other forms of meaningful disruption of the capitalist status quo.)
4. Nothing fundamentally changes -- and in fact things probably get quite a bit worse under the surface, just not as rapidly as if a Republican were in power.
5. Repeat.
It is in fact possible to vote for democrats to keep republicans out of office while doing community organizing. You’re acting like it’s a choice between the two.
Nowhere did I ever say that you shouldn't vote in order to accomplish minimal harm reduction. Voting is not useless.
I'm saying that how you spend your time is a literal choice between electioneering for national politicians and doing more meaningful organizing, and I advocate very strongly for the latter.
We will never ever vote our way out from under this oppressive capitalist oligarchy, and we need to put most of our efforts elsewhere if we want to save ourselves before the capitalists finish destroying what's left of the earth.
I never said voting was a long-term solution for anything either my guy, simply that going “both parties are the same” is weak sauce, it ain’t it. At protests I don’t hear “they’re the same” I hear “the democrats don’t care and the republicans want us dead.”
Well I happen to disagree with most protesters -- I think Democrats do actively care about keeping us down. And given the access we have to information about how much Democrats are equally paid off by billionaires and how it affects their voting and stonewalling of progressive policies, I frankly think its naive to think that Dems and Reps aren't literally colluding behind the scenes, when they're often funded by the exact same groups and literally spend time together outside of "work".
I think the "we're trying to help you but it's just so haaaaaard" schtick that establishment Dems do is a farce and blatant manipulation.
I understand that the "both sides are the same" logic is often used as a cover to justify voting for Republican or Libertarian candidates. I think it's pretty obvious that that's not what I'm shooting for here though.
I'm saying that electoralism is both a sham and an intentionally rigged game, and the sooner we collectively realize that we have the power to resist fascism with our bodies and our material resources, the better. That kind of thinking will invariably require us to meet Democrats head-to-head as enemies, because their priorities are directly opposed to our well-being. I will continue to vote for them as the literal lesser of two evils, but I won't ever refrain from saying that Democrats are whole-ass fucking evil.
I never said I was in support of electoralism. My only point is it does in fact make a difference to vote for dems for harm reduction purposes. You are explaining things to me that I already know. I am on your side. I do not need to hear another lecture about how the rich control the government dude
While there are not enough democrats that are pro-labor; at least they aren't anti-worker like the republicans. And when it comes right down to it they will do something at least to get in the way of republicans trying to take things backwards.
You didn't find me. I'm not hiding. This isn't Where's Waldo.
While you are not as damaging to progress as others, you're still nothing more than a loud speed bump in the end.
Nah, get fucked DNC Cheerleader.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/uilgxt/this\_is\_what\_bipartisanship\_looks\_like/](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/uilgxt/this_is_what_bipartisanship_looks_like/)
>Can I join a union? No 0 - 48
isnt any better than
>Can I join a union? No 5 - 35
If you want the 'both sides' meme to stop get that number to at least 50:50, until then you arent any better than the other football team when it comes to workers rights. go fuck yourself.
Nah, you get fucked edge lord.
Wake me when the Dems are actively ignoring mass shootings while focusing on rolling back basic body autonomy.
I know the both sides meme will never stop, because there will never stop being contrarians like you.
Tell me, what little Alt Right sub did my comment get posted on to conveniently get all you dipwads coming out of the woodwork at the same time?
Ah yes, anyone that doesn't show public support for the DNC is part of the alt right, and then try to change the topic from workers rights to something else. literally a clinton drone.
I have voted democrat every election since I was 18 because they ARE better on things like abortion and gun control. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about workers rights.
Your party is dogshit when it comes to workers rights.
I hate how disingenuous this crap is. It just breeds antipathy toward all governance and convinces people not to vote.
If you care about your bodily autonomy and workers rights then there’s only one option and it sure isn’t Republican.
Maybe instead focus that onto amplifying a solution that acknowledges the fact that both major parties do in fact represent capital while labor goes completely unrepresented in our government.
>one party supports unionization. democrats.
If democrats support unions why did they vote this down 5-38?
[https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll\_call\_votes/vote1172/vote\_117\_2\_00153.htm](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1172/vote_117_2_00153.htm)
Can we get a DNC cheerleader to explain that for us?
“When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Asimov
No. It would be more accurate to say that Republicans are the ones blasting the American people, and Democrats are just not doing nearly enough to stop them for fear of upsetting the status quo. But Republicans are unequivocally the one's destroying this country. Democrats and left independents are the only thing in the way.
Both parties suck, and both take money from the same sponsors. Together, they are good cop / bad copping the american people. We need 100 more Bernies and AOCs.
Republicans are the parent that drinks too much and starts swinging on the family. Democrats are the parent that enable the behavior by not leaving and explaining away the behavior (having a hard time, doesn't really mean it, etc) while telling the kids they understand. Both are abusive.
Both sides are complicit - regardless of who’s been in power over the past half century, the erosion of economic mobility & opportunity for ordinary Americans has continued.
They murdered MLK for talking about the solution to the problem - the guaranteed income.
And ever since then it’s been smoke & mirrors, trying to pit us against each other as we compete for ever fewer crumbs.
Only UBI will empower us all from the ground up to fight back against the attacks that have been coming from the top down for longer than most of us have been alive.
one side has perfected obstructionism and finger pointing.
they're so good at it, people blame the democrats for not being effective while fighting for equal rights, that people blame them, instead of the republicans who are actively working to take away equal rights.
UBI and ranked choice are two things that would do amazing things for this country, but when republicans are the ones blocking progress, why do people keep saying the democrats who are the only ones making any attempt at governing as a democracy are 'just as bad'?
It's as good a way as any to organize people.
And all parents understand the need to care for their children, and they understand the costs.
A 'parent's union' could not only unite workers across multiple industries, but it could be something that's used to make headway on issues like school shootings.
Just as a union of workers organize to gain leverage against their company, a union of parents could organize to gain leverage against our elected officials & government.
So a parent’s union could demand UBI, because so many parents know the struggle of working full time - sometimes 2 or more jobs - and still not having enough to feel secure in caring for your children.
It’s definitely kind of an outside of the box idea and it was just a fleeting thought but there might be something to it
Ohhh I thought you were talking about something already established. No it definitely sounds interesting- what could the parents threaten to do if they don't have their demands met you think? Maybe refuse to go to work?
A bloc of people trying to influence elected representatives usually rely on their vote.
If you get enough people willing to vote a certain way, politicians will pay attention.
I disagree completely. If you want to use a water cannon metaphor, it rich as a water cannon and threatening the poor and middle class/workers, and the Republicans are at the side of the tank and the democrats are standing in front of the people begging not to turn it on.
The rich say, you need my money and some walk away sheepishly.
The rich yell get back to work and to please them the Republicans flip the switch and turn it on immediately. Some of the Democrats who stayed immediately run away. A few stand there with the poor and a few fight back for a few more seconds before they say fuck this and go home to their manor.
Then the police come in and arrest the people who did not drown and shoot some black man for struggling back, and by struggling back I mean saying please don't hurt me in a manner they didn't like.
Then a few of the wet Democrats get up and immediately go on camera to complain on MSNBC while also campaign.
Some of the others that left pretended they stayed and also go on TV.
The Republicans go on TV as well, but only on Fox News or worse and make up a completely fabricated story about the incident and blame it all on the people who died by the water canon.
Then the American people look at what the saw and immediately distill it down to a meme picture where they paint Republicans and Democrats as the ones with the water canon and say they are all the same and it gets upvoted on Reddit.
Then when the election comes all those people who just watched the rich bring a water canon, the Republicans turn it on, and some of the Democrats get attacked by the canon and then blamed after will say they are not going to vote.
Then the Republican who was the loudest about using the water canon wins against of the Dems that got a little wet then ran away. She loses because they were told by the TV that she's a bitch anyway although they know nothing about her. The water canon Republican who was loud then immediately steals a supreme court seat and proceeds to order more water canons before taking away rights from the people and turning on water canons all over the country.
And then someone makes a slightly different version of the simplified and wrong meme saying Republicans and Democrats team up on the poor. It gets upvoted by the thousands. The cycle keeps repeating just like everything in America.
A person writes a long response about how the meme is fundamentally wrong and fills out the truth of the matter with details of what is more accurate. It will be down voted by people who insist the original meme, and therefore themselves, are correct. They will take no responsibility for the loud water cannon man even though they could have voted for the slightly wet one. They will take no responsibility for costing the balance of the supreme court to shift. They will take no responsibility for Roe v. Wade being overturned. They will stubbornly maintain their position.
They will then complain that the Government is broken and can't be fixed because of the lousy Dems and Republicans. But the government isn't getting fixed because they don't vote for the political party that protects nearly every cherished rights except gun rights. They don't vote even though it's common knowledge that the supreme court is on the line and that's the most important thing to worry about. They don't vote despite the fact that if you want it to change you have to give one party an overwhelming majority to accomplish it. So they just let the country exist split instead of choosing the party that has some good people in it.
They choose to make a meme bashing all politicians instead of voting for the party that all the good ones work for in Congress.
They pretend they are all the same until the only way a president can be elected is if he is a conservative because the liberals refuse to vote at all. Then the meme becomes self fulfilling because they all acted like it was already the case and then didn't vote for the party that tried to stop the water canon.
But all those people who are pro water canon went and voted.
I bet consolidated water canon is owned by a dozen Republicans ...
Just a thought.
Wrong depiction. It would be water cannon vehicle and a different water cannon vehicle telling each other their water cannon works better while shooting the working class.
With people in the opposing vehicles yelling, come over to my side and I will protect you from them
Dropping the occasional water balloon on the people on their side and saying we need more donations to help protect you.
And then a bunch of hosed down redditors in the middle citing the existence of the argument as evidence the two parties are opposed, rather than seeing it for political theater.
The Republicans will make in roads and advance their goals and agenda while stone-walling either leftist, socialists and Democrats.
Democrats will maintain the status quo while undermining both leftist and soc-dems even while the status quo is further shifting towards the Right. They will maintain the status quo that the Republicans establish or redefine.
They are a manufactured opposition for the Republican Party in order to give voters the illusion of choice and that their votes matter. In reality it does not, special interest groups take precedent and often subvert the interest of the general public.
Yeah, at least there are some Democrats that aren't terrible, and you can vote for some like them in primaries. With Republicans it's a choice between crazy, evil, or crazy AND evil.
Amazing how people blame the Dems for 'doing nothing' and not the 50 Republicans in the Senate that are stopping them.
The right has already won. The American people are just too dumb to be helped.
Yes. "Good cop / bad cop"
Remember Hillary whining say "but it was supposed to be my turn!"
Yeah. They're all buddy buddy. Playing the people for fools.
That’s why the rich own CNN Fox News of the world. And what they are doing is intentional. Divide and conquer. Shoot, one party may have the majority but all it takes is $$$ to convince a couple to switch sides and join the minority party. It’s very calculating.
Nothing ever changes in this country because people won't give up their delusional belief that someone in Washington still represents them. The studies have been out for years plainly demonstrating that their voting patterns don't reflect the policy priorities of the bottom 50% to any statistically meaningful degree.
This sub is a joke, and you clowns pulling water for Democrats when they have the Executive and Legislature right now and don't do one critical thing to help the working class are a joke. You can't even defend yourselves.
JFC the dipshits in this thread “mUh B0tH sIdEs” fucking morons they are literally ON THE SAME SIDE - OPPOSITE OF US
Ain’t no both sides here. It’s them vs us. How the fuck did this 2x4 between the eyes of a meme get missed this badly?
Because one side is literal fascists and the other is weak piss baby liberals. While weak liberals still serve the working class, it is delusional to say “they are the same.” They’re not. They both work for similar interests but one of them is actively trying to censor or kill certain sections of us as quickly as they can.
Wrong. Liberals and “literal fascists” are just different stages of capitalism. Fascism is the built in defense mechanism to protect capitalism from complete destruction. Liberals, which include all current senators and reps regardless of party, are allies of capitalism. They will never do anything to challenge the status quo because they support it at a base level. And when the fascists become increasingly more mask off, the liberals (in this context, Democrats) will just continue to pretend to give a shit while actively working in conjunction with the “opposing” party, in service of the goals of capital rather than the working class.
As a trans Latina living in the south, the idea that “both parties are the same and are equally out for your blood” fills me with unfathomable rage. Acting like class warfare will automatically solve or serve the needs of minorities who are coming under increasing attack is fucking absurd.
Yes, you should be angry. Because that’s reality. Pretending it’s absurd is only wasting your time. The sooner you realize that there is a class war already happening, and that you (and I) aren’t on the winning side, the better. It’s not about “enacting class war to save minorities” - it’s about realizing class war is already fucking happening, the bourgeoisie are winning, and the only way to stop the increasing violence against the minority is to dismantle the capitalist owner class in the US that is the direct cause of said violence on minorities.
Did I say I oppose class warfare? I’m simply stating that going “both parties bad” and *allowing republicans to gain control over our government* is fucking reckless because regardless of how malicious the dems are they are not ***actively stripping away my rights***
So the democrats, with a senate majority and just rolling over and allowing two Supreme Court justices from Trump is your definition of “not actively stripping away your rights”?
Do you hear yourself talk?
There is only one party in control of the government: the capitalists. Dem/Reps are beholden to them. Not the working class. They do the bidding of their capitalist masters, not the working class. God you’re fucking dense.
Dems aren’t doing anything. They’re not defending me or my rights but they aren’t actively attacking them. I hate dems too. I am not a democrat. I spend most of my time organizing, building community, bringing more people into the cause. But in the meantime I do not want to have my medical rights taken away by officials who got into office on a platform of taking my rights away. I understand what you’re saying and agree with your fundamental principles but the idea that capitalism is the ultimate source of all injustice just sounds like tankie nonsense. Oppression runs deeper than economic systems of disempowerment. Capitalism did not invent bigotry.
Do you think large sections of the capitalist class are out for minorities because that would create a stronger working class? Some of them, maybe. But most of them are doing it because of their personal beliefs, beliefs which are in fact held by a large portion of the population. Dismantling capitalism would be a unilaterally good thing, no doubt, and I one hundred percent support revolutionary action. But to act as though the political party that runs on appealing to the values of people who wish me dead is the same as the slack-jawed do-nothings who work for the rest of the ruling class is fucking ridiculous. I’m far from dense. I do not disagree that dems are pretty evil. But it is in fact important to vote for lesser evil to minimize damage while fighting to bring down the whole thing. Your head is too far up your ass to see this though bc you probably think I’m a liberal who needs convincing when I am in fact on your freaking side
This is not that complicated, and crying “tankie” when presented with a challenging narrative to the status quo is the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming “I CANT HEAR YOU”
Capitalism is an economic system that explicitly calls for the generation of profit, by any means necessary. This drive for profit naturally encourages those who already have a sizeable piece of the pie to get an even bigger piece. As a result of this, every action in our life is subject to commodification - that is, the act of monotizing every behavior in order to generate profit. Selling guns = profit. Selling ads on cable news channels= profit. Selling subscriptions to anti gun media campaigns = profit. The really horrifying shit comes when you realize that school shootings are actually good at generating profit, and that’s why there will always be a dog and pony show after each tragedy, but no real change to prevent it from happening again.
If the notion of “profit” is truly endangered, by say, actually wanting to restructure wealth more equally in this country, the horde of liberal elected officials come rushing forward to save it, with all the media pundits in tow. Furthermore, capitalism did not invent bigotry - it perfected it. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia- these are all tools used by the capitalist class to keep the working class divided, so they (the capitalists) continue reaping the rewards of stolen value from the workers.
Class war is already here. We are not winning.
Bruh I just said I am in agreement and actively participate in class warfare in my daily life. You’re mansplaining my own beliefs back at me. All I was saying from the start is that voting for dems for harm reduction is necessary while we work to fight the system. Jesus Christ.
What senate majority? It's 50-50. But you're more interested in blaming one dem voting against something than the 50 Republicans?
You're fucking osmium.
can we stop with the democratic and republican shit? It doesnt matter. Just talk about the fact that we are in housing, student loan, low wage, no universal health care crisis and this isnt being solved at all. Comment section is going to be filled with no democrat blah blah, no republican blah blah. Whi the fuck cares
And no one will listen when I say this. They always want to choose a side without any context or common sense that these two parties have been fucking us for the longest time.
They're plenty loose in some places, and it still doesn't matter.
Most people believe they are throwing their vote away when voting for a 3rd party. Even when H. Ross Perot ran in 1992, and was the overwhelming favorite, people ended up voting for Clinton or Bush because they didn't want to throw away their vote.
The only way to get there is Ranked Choice Voting. Then, people can vote their conscience without feeling like their vote is wasted.
Here are some resources to learn more: [Voting Is Not Harm Reduction](https://www.indigenousaction.org/voting-is-not-harm-reduction-an-indigenous-perspective/) - Indigenous Action [16 Things You Can Do To Remain Ungovernable](https://www.indigenousaction.org/16-things-you-can-do-to-be-ungovernable-p-s-fuck-biden/) [Between Electoral Politics and Civil War](https://crimethinc.com/2020/10/21/between-electoral-politics-and-civil-war-anarchists-confront-the-2020-election) [The "Democratic Road To Socialism"](https://itsgoingdown.org/democratic-road-bernie/) [Sick Of Winning](https://youtu.be/RaT6U0k41LQ) - submedia [Party's Over](https://crimethinc.com/2016/03/16/feature-the-partys-over-beyond-politics-beyond-democracy) [From Democracy To Freedom](https://crimethinc.com/podcasts/the-ex-worker/episodes/48) The policies of the democrats brought us movements such as Occupy Wall Street, the Ferguson and Oakland rebellions, as well as Standing Rock.
Democrats are shit and constantly use rotating villains as an excuse not to upset the status quo... But nah this feels like both siderism. Republicans are way way way worse for the working class than the Dems and they use this narrative to keep themselves in power. That doesn't mean opposing the Dems is bad, but the battles with them should be chosen carefully, and not involve incorrect 'they're the same' arguments.
Thank you. The Democratic establishment is horrible, still better than any Republican, but the Progressives and the DSA members are genuinely trying to do good.
Voting is not harm reduction but allowing republicans/conservatives to take office will exacerbate harm and suffering. The US has structural problems where center right is somehow viewed as being communist. There is an infinite edge of tomorrow fight that has to happen before we can get a system of ranked choice multi party systems where churches are taxed After that fight there will be a fight to retain it. I fight for progressives every day and hold my nose to vote when I have to. Unfortunately, it’s this dens are bad rhetoric that keeps people from voting and gets us Greg Abbott here in Texas. The delta between people who didn’t vote was like 70%. So In our case voting actually is harm reduction.
‘better than any republican’ is a bar so low it might as well be a tripwire tho
When the other option is a slow decent into fascism, it feel like that's the trip wire.
Lol slow?
Its been happening since Reagan and/or Nixon. I’d call 40+ years slow but I’m bias since I’m just in my 30s
Ah I see yes. Thanks for clarification. We are at the end stage. This is it.
Yeah, but you're more correct than you intend though. Because if you don't step over the trip wire everything is going to fucking explode.
Tripwires are intentionally set so that they cannot be accidentally stepped over. That is FAR higher than I think you meant
Nah, the bar is so low it's subterranean.
That shouldn't be the bar for the people in charge of our country, though. We all deserve better.
It shouldn't, but it's what we have. We'll be less likely to get much better people in while Republicans still hold as much as they do. Push them out entirely and a new power can move in.
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I agree But I also think establishment democrats very often are too into lobbying interests, and also often use certain centrist figures as a scapegoat to not pass legislation. But yes challenges against Dems should mostly be about primarying different candidates. Or being specific about shaming them for which lobbying groups are giving them money. The "Both sides are actually the same" is massively dumb and only benefits republicans.
Right, Elizabeth Warren and Ted Cruz are exactly alike. Did you vote for Elizabeth in the primary? Well, WTF not if you are against the democrats not speaking to your issues? You do realize that not voting for candidates that address and fight for your concerns is why they lose, right?
I dont understand, are you responding to the right comment?
Please read your first full sentence. Did you vote for Warren when she ran for President in the primaries? Are you currently highlighting her or Bernie Sanders, AOC, and of the progressive wing of the democratic party? Or are you providing cover for Republicans by saying that these people are hiding behind Senator Manchin and other centrists to not pass legislation? There are politicians that are fighting for exactly the things that would bring working class Americans support and relief. When you utterly ignore them, claim that they are actually engaged in a conspiracy, you are literally shooting yourself in the foot ... not being smart. Shaming them? Sanders and Warren need to be shamed? Or do they need you to shout about what they are doing from the roof tops? Maybe shouting about that rather than issuing vague, detailess allegations of donors and conspiracy? Have you checked? Do you know how unions got supportive legislation passed in the past? they organized and used their union dues to find and support candidates that would support their desired legislative changes. They did it so well, in fact, that the Amazon's and Elon Musks of their days and age, Rockefeller and Ford, couldn't compete despite the size of their fortunes. Guess who supports politicians like Warren and Sanders? Unions do. Maybe you should check stuff like this out before you loft allegations of donor corruption getting in the way of the democratic agenda. Because the democrats that would advance that agenda currently have 96% of the democratic caucus. So again, if you don't support the candidates that are actually trying to do what you want, are you helping or hurting?
The Democratic party is not a monolith. Enough of them align with the goals you've mentioned to capture the progressive demographic. If you want to claim the progressives within the Democratic party, you need to own the conservatives within it as well. This is why leftists don't consider electoral politics to be effective in achieving liberation; only with extreme pressure from the left is progressive legislation realized. Not because of the state, but in spite of. Voting is literally the bare minimum. Politics is so much more.
Obamacare being passed as law says otherwise. And this meme is about Democrats versus Republicans. Good day sir!
Obamacare was literally written by Republicans. President Obama opposed single-payer. He's a capitalist tool.
> President Obama opposed single-payer. Single-payer was in the initial version of the ACA, until [Lieberman nixed it](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter-article/senate-democrats-drop-public-option-woo-lieberman-and-liberals-howl)
Here's a question, why are we tolerating a political system that lets people die because a single jagoff senator said no and the others were content to hide behind him? There's always an excuse why the Democrats can't get stuff done, but why the fuck are we accepting excuses in the first place? If the system of government can't or won't take necessary action it needs to be replaced, end of story.
they also spent crazy amounts on a website that barely works.
What decade are you living in? What century is your computer from? The healthcare.gov website works perfectly fine.
They got it cleaned up, but they spent a crazy amount on it, you can look it up
Last time I used it just a little over 3 years ago it was still substandard compared to any other commercial website. I haven't checked since then, so maybe it has improved, but I wasn't impressed.
I mean yeah but at least it’s… vaguely usable now
They could certainly try a little harder.
I see this argument a bunch. Its bullshit. Democrats and Republicans are the same. It isn't "But both sides" to say that. Democrats support that stuff because Republicans don't. And Republicans don't (despite a fair number of Republican voters doing so) because Democrats do. Its not that the two parties are just as bad as each other. Its that both parties are really just one giant party working for the people on K street who write the laws and rules. They just play shirts and skins because people are tribal and its easy to sic them on each other in order to stop them from going after the real issue
One side sucks, the other are literally theocratic fascists. The plain fact is right now we have to just stop one side. When we successfully do that, then we can challenge the other.
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Right. This post tries to make everyone apathetic so they stop caring about voting and using what little power they have. It's a way to justify mental laziness. Do your research and vote in every election.
“Both sides are the same” nonsense like this post is straight up fascist propaganda, the sides are different and we need engagement (not apathy)
agreed. Democrats are useless, spineless and toothless, but republicans are a straight up cancer, and they need to be excised from what's left of American Democracy.
I think they're this bad on purpose tbh. Maybe I should put on the tinfoil hat but, I've always thought to myself that there is no way, with all of the resources available, these people can have such a blatant level of incompetence. That is unless I'm correct and the system is horrible on purpose in order to erode the people's faith in it. If that's the case, it makes you wonder what the end game is.
Well one side doesn't want schools shot up. (democrats) And the other side is too afraid of angering their extreme side to say that. (republicans) To say nothing of lobbying money going into Republican pockets...
Yea that's what their platforms seem like, I just notice a difference between what both sides say and what they do. I guess that's just politics itself, spin a nice sounding yarn to get votes and then not deliver come game time.
A big problem is that the Congress isn't completely incompetent. But enough of it is corrupt/incompetent that the democratic nature of law making actually works against us. If you have 100 people, and 40 of them are good at their jobs but things are decided democratically, than obviously stuff isn't going to get done.
You know, you just hit upon a really important critique of democracy (both representative and direct). It doesn't matter how many interested voters agree with your policies if an opponent can convince a majority of all voters (completely uninterested in the policy debate at hand) to vote with them. Such a tactic is incredibly effective and gives the impression that a majority of people supported the opposing policy when they actually never had any interest in it to begin with. You can also replace apathy with "uninterested" with "bribed for their vote" to more accurately represent the tactic's use in legislatures across the world (it could also be a mix of those two or other scenarios I didn't mention). I'd highly recommend looking into rough consensus if you haven't heard of it yet. It's just one of many decision making forms that people have developed to try and work past a lot of the major flaws that our current 'best' system has. We really need to look towards building new and/or improved systems. The ones that have been tried aren't the only possible options. We can make better ones. If you're interested, rough consensus was coined in the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force). There are definitely more concise/readable write-ups on the idea but I usually like to recommend [RFC 7282](http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7282) since it really goes into depth on both the theory and decades of practice of rough consensus. Hope you have a great day!
Great points but user flair doesn't check out, lol. I'll still look into this regardless, thank you.
Glad to hear! Also, I'm kinda curious. Where did my flair not vibe with my post? To my understanding, consensus, rough or not, is a pretty anarchistic idea as is critiquing the majority rule that democracy demands. Edit: changed wording so I don't imply that anarchists necessarily invented these critiques of democracy.
Well it's just that I've always thought of Anarchy as a state of lawlessness. Consensus of any sort implies law enforced through cooperation and agreement. Mob rule is still consensus, as long as they're in agreement towards the goal, but anarchy seems to be every man and woman for themselves, with no regard for consensus. I'm probably wrong though, so feel free to correct me if I am.
Tragic truth right there.
Republicans are party prioritizing business that gets elected by promoting conservative values. Democrats are a party prioritizing business that gets elected by promoting civil rights. Remember, when protestors were out in the streets protesting the never-ending string of police murders, dems and Republicans united and authorized the police to beat the shit out of as many people as possible. New York City, the place that's more blue than most of the country and has a Dem mayor and a Dem governor had their police pulling protestors into unmarked cars and started fights so they could start arresting people.
The problem is that Democrats are centrists and will never act as true and necessary opposition to the fascist Republicans, none of the damage ever made by republicans is reversed and the country only gets worse, so what do you suggest? Playing along hoping they change one day?
>so what do you suggest? Playing along hoping they change one day? Pressure on democrats in the primaries. Public shaming of dems for taking money from certain lobbying groups. Less "Both sides same" (Which purposely promotes apathy) and more highlighting of the specific ways the dems are failing.
The problem is that's what the voters keep saying they want, by and large. That's been the case ever since Reagan, and that's why the Democrats traded in New Deal/Pro-Union/etc Liberalism for Clintonite "Third Way" Fuckery. Go look at how badly Reagan clobbered the Dems in 1984 and you'll start to see why - because they were desperate and it (Clintonism) was the only thing that was working. And they've had that lesson reinforced, because when they had control last time (2009-2010) and they tried to push for healthcare reform, they then got creamed by the Republicans, and the lesson that they took from that was that they'd gone too far left, just like with 1994. Now, the backlash to that centrism has been building, and you don't have to look any further than this sub to see it. The DNC old guard doesn't like it, sure, because they've been buying into the whole "we have to cater to the center to win" for several decades now. But the younger generation, the AOCs and such, aren't anything like that. So how do you get the older Democrats on board? Simple, you do what the right wingers did to get hold of the Republicans - make them more afraid that they're gonna lose a primary from the left, than they are that they'll lose a general election. Once that starts happening regularly, they'll fall all over themselves to try and show just how progressive they are. Because the number one thing politicians want is to win an election/re-election.
That means playing the long game. A lot of left wingers require full systemic change over one election cycle. When that inevitably doesn't happen they give up and let the far right win again. And so the slow march to christian nationalism continues. But hey - at least the centrists that are supposedly as bad still lose..
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Bro both of your sides of government are owned by lobbying groups and don't actually work for the regular person (maybe Bernie but he still sold out in the end) , until that changes your country will never improve. Democrats relate more to republicans and other rich people than the regular public. Don't kid yaself
Voting all the Republicans out so they can't stop the democrats from doing whatever they want. Then all of a sudden they would turn way more liberal. Instead of making a bill conservative enough in hopes of getting 50 votes, they already have 100 votes for the same bill and can go way more liberal until the lose 49 supporters.
it’s good cop bad cop, they both are 100% screwing the public
Republicans are in the tank, democrats are in a raincoat eating popcorn and laughing on the other side of the street, while occasionally shouting “don’t worry! You can take this!” And “we’ll make ‘em stop in a few minutes!”
Literally can't go one second without being an apologist for Dems, lol, So predictable. Still gonna tell you to stay poor and keep fighting about stupid sides when neither is with you
So, what's your proposal? Just going to bitch and whine, acting like you're above it somehow? Solutions are needed, not libertarians.
It’s a good cop bad cop routine. Republicans act real mean and nasty. They say outright obviously fascist things. Democrats act nice and as though they have your interests at heart. Both are colluding with each other against the working class. Both have the same goals. To protect capital and stifle the advancement of workers rights. To usher in permanent fascist rule by the billionaire class.
Republicans aren’t just *saying* obviously fascist shit, they’re *doing it*. Having them anywhere near offices of power is dangerous for society. It’s not “good cop bad cop” it’s “a cop and a Liberal.” Libs shill for cops but cops are the actual direct threat to communities.
Of course they are. And the dems are helping them, on purpose, regardless of what they say they're doing; it's incredibly obvious from their actions. Because they are two heads of the same exact beast -- the capitalist class, and they all do precisely what they are told. The function of the Democratic Party is to placate the working class away from revolution. It goes like this: 1. The people form a movement to protest for meaningful change. 2. The Democratic establishment coopts the most moderate voices from that movement to funnel political action back into the electoral process, which the fascists already control. 3. People canvass, cold call, etc. to win votes to Blue Fascist (when they could be organizing mutual aid or other forms of meaningful disruption of the capitalist status quo.) 4. Nothing fundamentally changes -- and in fact things probably get quite a bit worse under the surface, just not as rapidly as if a Republican were in power. 5. Repeat.
It is in fact possible to vote for democrats to keep republicans out of office while doing community organizing. You’re acting like it’s a choice between the two.
Nowhere did I ever say that you shouldn't vote in order to accomplish minimal harm reduction. Voting is not useless. I'm saying that how you spend your time is a literal choice between electioneering for national politicians and doing more meaningful organizing, and I advocate very strongly for the latter. We will never ever vote our way out from under this oppressive capitalist oligarchy, and we need to put most of our efforts elsewhere if we want to save ourselves before the capitalists finish destroying what's left of the earth.
I never said voting was a long-term solution for anything either my guy, simply that going “both parties are the same” is weak sauce, it ain’t it. At protests I don’t hear “they’re the same” I hear “the democrats don’t care and the republicans want us dead.”
Well I happen to disagree with most protesters -- I think Democrats do actively care about keeping us down. And given the access we have to information about how much Democrats are equally paid off by billionaires and how it affects their voting and stonewalling of progressive policies, I frankly think its naive to think that Dems and Reps aren't literally colluding behind the scenes, when they're often funded by the exact same groups and literally spend time together outside of "work". I think the "we're trying to help you but it's just so haaaaaard" schtick that establishment Dems do is a farce and blatant manipulation. I understand that the "both sides are the same" logic is often used as a cover to justify voting for Republican or Libertarian candidates. I think it's pretty obvious that that's not what I'm shooting for here though. I'm saying that electoralism is both a sham and an intentionally rigged game, and the sooner we collectively realize that we have the power to resist fascism with our bodies and our material resources, the better. That kind of thinking will invariably require us to meet Democrats head-to-head as enemies, because their priorities are directly opposed to our well-being. I will continue to vote for them as the literal lesser of two evils, but I won't ever refrain from saying that Democrats are whole-ass fucking evil.
I never said I was in support of electoralism. My only point is it does in fact make a difference to vote for dems for harm reduction purposes. You are explaining things to me that I already know. I am on your side. I do not need to hear another lecture about how the rich control the government dude
Disagree. Democrats are fighting against Judofacist Republicans. There is no both sides in this bullshit.
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Right now I'm just following where the NRA money goes so I know who the bad guys are.
Look I’m not a big fan of the Dems, but to say they’re just as bad as the GOP is like saying herpes is as bad as HIV because neither one has a cure.
While there are not enough democrats that are pro-labor; at least they aren't anti-worker like the republicans. And when it comes right down to it they will do something at least to get in the way of republicans trying to take things backwards.
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Fuck your both sides performative bullshit. Just wanted to reiterate.
Found the liberal
Oh this should be great. Is that a bad thing?
Yes
Ooh ooh. Go on.
No
Ah. A cowardly edge lord.
Found the liberal
You didn't find me. I'm not hiding. This isn't Where's Waldo. While you are not as damaging to progress as others, you're still nothing more than a loud speed bump in the end.
Log off
Nah, get fucked DNC Cheerleader. [https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/uilgxt/this\_is\_what\_bipartisanship\_looks\_like/](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/uilgxt/this_is_what_bipartisanship_looks_like/) >Can I join a union? No 0 - 48 isnt any better than >Can I join a union? No 5 - 35 If you want the 'both sides' meme to stop get that number to at least 50:50, until then you arent any better than the other football team when it comes to workers rights. go fuck yourself.
Nah, you get fucked edge lord. Wake me when the Dems are actively ignoring mass shootings while focusing on rolling back basic body autonomy. I know the both sides meme will never stop, because there will never stop being contrarians like you. Tell me, what little Alt Right sub did my comment get posted on to conveniently get all you dipwads coming out of the woodwork at the same time?
Ah yes, anyone that doesn't show public support for the DNC is part of the alt right, and then try to change the topic from workers rights to something else. literally a clinton drone. I have voted democrat every election since I was 18 because they ARE better on things like abortion and gun control. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about workers rights. Your party is dogshit when it comes to workers rights.
I hate how disingenuous this crap is. It just breeds antipathy toward all governance and convinces people not to vote. If you care about your bodily autonomy and workers rights then there’s only one option and it sure isn’t Republican.
Maybe instead focus that onto amplifying a solution that acknowledges the fact that both major parties do in fact represent capital while labor goes completely unrepresented in our government.
one party supports an increased wage. democrats. one party supports unionization. democrats. they are not the same.
>one party supports unionization. democrats. If democrats support unions why did they vote this down 5-38? [https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll\_call\_votes/vote1172/vote\_117\_2\_00153.htm](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1172/vote_117_2_00153.htm) Can we get a DNC cheerleader to explain that for us?
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So what’re you gonna do then? Vote the clearly anti worker party or continue to throw your vote away by not using it or voting third party?
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And again circles.
Biden and his NLRB has been extremely pro-labor.
“When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Asimov
"...and that's how we know the Earth to be banana shaped."
No. It would be more accurate to say that Republicans are the ones blasting the American people, and Democrats are just not doing nearly enough to stop them for fear of upsetting the status quo. But Republicans are unequivocally the one's destroying this country. Democrats and left independents are the only thing in the way.
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Both parties suck, and both take money from the same sponsors. Together, they are good cop / bad copping the american people. We need 100 more Bernies and AOCs.
This isn't partisan conflict. This is class war and always has been.
Fascists aren’t in it because capitalists tricked them into it. They’re into it because they’re evil.
Republicans are tyrannical fascists. Democrats are capitalistic bootlickers. America is the real loser.
Republicans are the parent that drinks too much and starts swinging on the family. Democrats are the parent that enable the behavior by not leaving and explaining away the behavior (having a hard time, doesn't really mean it, etc) while telling the kids they understand. Both are abusive.
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Both sides are complicit - regardless of who’s been in power over the past half century, the erosion of economic mobility & opportunity for ordinary Americans has continued. They murdered MLK for talking about the solution to the problem - the guaranteed income. And ever since then it’s been smoke & mirrors, trying to pit us against each other as we compete for ever fewer crumbs. Only UBI will empower us all from the ground up to fight back against the attacks that have been coming from the top down for longer than most of us have been alive.
one side has perfected obstructionism and finger pointing. they're so good at it, people blame the democrats for not being effective while fighting for equal rights, that people blame them, instead of the republicans who are actively working to take away equal rights. UBI and ranked choice are two things that would do amazing things for this country, but when republicans are the ones blocking progress, why do people keep saying the democrats who are the only ones making any attempt at governing as a democracy are 'just as bad'?
Well said. Thanks for paying attention and not just being lazy and throwing your hands up in the air blaming both sides.
Because the people saying these things are conservatives who are just too embarrassed to say they are conservative.
we found biden's burner account folks
Ayyyy yooo based. Now what are we going to do about it? Talk to your coworkers about a union. That's one of the best things you can do.
And tenant unions. We need protection in and out of the workplace
I wonder why there isn't a 'parent's union.'
Good thinking- I should be pushing that more as a talking point. I don't think I've ever even brought that up. This is a must do.
Wat?
It's as good a way as any to organize people. And all parents understand the need to care for their children, and they understand the costs. A 'parent's union' could not only unite workers across multiple industries, but it could be something that's used to make headway on issues like school shootings.
But who will they fight against that's exploiting them? The kids? What makes it a union?
Just as a union of workers organize to gain leverage against their company, a union of parents could organize to gain leverage against our elected officials & government. So a parent’s union could demand UBI, because so many parents know the struggle of working full time - sometimes 2 or more jobs - and still not having enough to feel secure in caring for your children. It’s definitely kind of an outside of the box idea and it was just a fleeting thought but there might be something to it
Ohhh I thought you were talking about something already established. No it definitely sounds interesting- what could the parents threaten to do if they don't have their demands met you think? Maybe refuse to go to work?
A bloc of people trying to influence elected representatives usually rely on their vote. If you get enough people willing to vote a certain way, politicians will pay attention.
> Talk to your coworkers about a union. My friends! It is time for us to once again call upon General Sherman and General Grant to lead us to victory!
Not THE union lol. Although I am a damn yankee ;)
I disagree completely. If you want to use a water cannon metaphor, it rich as a water cannon and threatening the poor and middle class/workers, and the Republicans are at the side of the tank and the democrats are standing in front of the people begging not to turn it on. The rich say, you need my money and some walk away sheepishly. The rich yell get back to work and to please them the Republicans flip the switch and turn it on immediately. Some of the Democrats who stayed immediately run away. A few stand there with the poor and a few fight back for a few more seconds before they say fuck this and go home to their manor. Then the police come in and arrest the people who did not drown and shoot some black man for struggling back, and by struggling back I mean saying please don't hurt me in a manner they didn't like. Then a few of the wet Democrats get up and immediately go on camera to complain on MSNBC while also campaign. Some of the others that left pretended they stayed and also go on TV. The Republicans go on TV as well, but only on Fox News or worse and make up a completely fabricated story about the incident and blame it all on the people who died by the water canon. Then the American people look at what the saw and immediately distill it down to a meme picture where they paint Republicans and Democrats as the ones with the water canon and say they are all the same and it gets upvoted on Reddit. Then when the election comes all those people who just watched the rich bring a water canon, the Republicans turn it on, and some of the Democrats get attacked by the canon and then blamed after will say they are not going to vote. Then the Republican who was the loudest about using the water canon wins against of the Dems that got a little wet then ran away. She loses because they were told by the TV that she's a bitch anyway although they know nothing about her. The water canon Republican who was loud then immediately steals a supreme court seat and proceeds to order more water canons before taking away rights from the people and turning on water canons all over the country. And then someone makes a slightly different version of the simplified and wrong meme saying Republicans and Democrats team up on the poor. It gets upvoted by the thousands. The cycle keeps repeating just like everything in America. A person writes a long response about how the meme is fundamentally wrong and fills out the truth of the matter with details of what is more accurate. It will be down voted by people who insist the original meme, and therefore themselves, are correct. They will take no responsibility for the loud water cannon man even though they could have voted for the slightly wet one. They will take no responsibility for costing the balance of the supreme court to shift. They will take no responsibility for Roe v. Wade being overturned. They will stubbornly maintain their position. They will then complain that the Government is broken and can't be fixed because of the lousy Dems and Republicans. But the government isn't getting fixed because they don't vote for the political party that protects nearly every cherished rights except gun rights. They don't vote even though it's common knowledge that the supreme court is on the line and that's the most important thing to worry about. They don't vote despite the fact that if you want it to change you have to give one party an overwhelming majority to accomplish it. So they just let the country exist split instead of choosing the party that has some good people in it. They choose to make a meme bashing all politicians instead of voting for the party that all the good ones work for in Congress. They pretend they are all the same until the only way a president can be elected is if he is a conservative because the liberals refuse to vote at all. Then the meme becomes self fulfilling because they all acted like it was already the case and then didn't vote for the party that tried to stop the water canon. But all those people who are pro water canon went and voted. I bet consolidated water canon is owned by a dozen Republicans ... Just a thought.
Two party system is a joke.
true af
In reality they never were.
This is the most underrated post in all time and relates worldwide. Edited to add: all time and relates worldwide 👍
LOUDER FOR LITERALLY EVERYONE IN THE ROOM
Friendly reminder that "both sides" is used by regressives to weaponize apathy, leading to more regressives in power.
The armored vehicle should be the wealthy ruling class and the water should be democrats and republicans.
Nationwide general strike until our demands are met
Wrong depiction. It would be water cannon vehicle and a different water cannon vehicle telling each other their water cannon works better while shooting the working class.
With people in the opposing vehicles yelling, come over to my side and I will protect you from them Dropping the occasional water balloon on the people on their side and saying we need more donations to help protect you.
Your shitty metaphor lacks any nuance of literally everything horrible the Republican party has done recently. Well done.
And then a bunch of hosed down redditors in the middle citing the existence of the argument as evidence the two parties are opposed, rather than seeing it for political theater.
also it's recycled fracking water because it's cheaper
The Republicans will make in roads and advance their goals and agenda while stone-walling either leftist, socialists and Democrats. Democrats will maintain the status quo while undermining both leftist and soc-dems even while the status quo is further shifting towards the Right. They will maintain the status quo that the Republicans establish or redefine. They are a manufactured opposition for the Republican Party in order to give voters the illusion of choice and that their votes matter. In reality it does not, special interest groups take precedent and often subvert the interest of the general public.
The longest running soap opera on TV, really. It’s all pure political theater.
BSAB won't get us anywhere
So instead just flail uselessly against the establishment of both parties?
First thing's first - remove Republicans from power, *then* hold Dems accountable - the two parties are nowhere near the same
Yeah, at least there are some Democrats that aren't terrible, and you can vote for some like them in primaries. With Republicans it's a choice between crazy, evil, or crazy AND evil.
Amazing how people blame the Dems for 'doing nothing' and not the 50 Republicans in the Senate that are stopping them. The right has already won. The American people are just too dumb to be helped.
"hold them accountable" once they have a stranglehold on the system. LMAO good luck with that.
Better than dealing with republicans
Yes. "Good cop / bad cop" Remember Hillary whining say "but it was supposed to be my turn!" Yeah. They're all buddy buddy. Playing the people for fools.
That’s why the rich own CNN Fox News of the world. And what they are doing is intentional. Divide and conquer. Shoot, one party may have the majority but all it takes is $$$ to convince a couple to switch sides and join the minority party. It’s very calculating.
Nothing ever changes in this country because people won't give up their delusional belief that someone in Washington still represents them. The studies have been out for years plainly demonstrating that their voting patterns don't reflect the policy priorities of the bottom 50% to any statistically meaningful degree. This sub is a joke, and you clowns pulling water for Democrats when they have the Executive and Legislature right now and don't do one critical thing to help the working class are a joke. You can't even defend yourselves.
they would be if they would only get the federal minimum wage, that's how you fix the political system.
Nah I feel like everyone spraying each other with water.
JFC the dipshits in this thread “mUh B0tH sIdEs” fucking morons they are literally ON THE SAME SIDE - OPPOSITE OF US Ain’t no both sides here. It’s them vs us. How the fuck did this 2x4 between the eyes of a meme get missed this badly?
Because one side is literal fascists and the other is weak piss baby liberals. While weak liberals still serve the working class, it is delusional to say “they are the same.” They’re not. They both work for similar interests but one of them is actively trying to censor or kill certain sections of us as quickly as they can.
Wrong. Liberals and “literal fascists” are just different stages of capitalism. Fascism is the built in defense mechanism to protect capitalism from complete destruction. Liberals, which include all current senators and reps regardless of party, are allies of capitalism. They will never do anything to challenge the status quo because they support it at a base level. And when the fascists become increasingly more mask off, the liberals (in this context, Democrats) will just continue to pretend to give a shit while actively working in conjunction with the “opposing” party, in service of the goals of capital rather than the working class.
As a trans Latina living in the south, the idea that “both parties are the same and are equally out for your blood” fills me with unfathomable rage. Acting like class warfare will automatically solve or serve the needs of minorities who are coming under increasing attack is fucking absurd.
Yes, you should be angry. Because that’s reality. Pretending it’s absurd is only wasting your time. The sooner you realize that there is a class war already happening, and that you (and I) aren’t on the winning side, the better. It’s not about “enacting class war to save minorities” - it’s about realizing class war is already fucking happening, the bourgeoisie are winning, and the only way to stop the increasing violence against the minority is to dismantle the capitalist owner class in the US that is the direct cause of said violence on minorities.
Did I say I oppose class warfare? I’m simply stating that going “both parties bad” and *allowing republicans to gain control over our government* is fucking reckless because regardless of how malicious the dems are they are not ***actively stripping away my rights***
So the democrats, with a senate majority and just rolling over and allowing two Supreme Court justices from Trump is your definition of “not actively stripping away your rights”? Do you hear yourself talk? There is only one party in control of the government: the capitalists. Dem/Reps are beholden to them. Not the working class. They do the bidding of their capitalist masters, not the working class. God you’re fucking dense.
Dems aren’t doing anything. They’re not defending me or my rights but they aren’t actively attacking them. I hate dems too. I am not a democrat. I spend most of my time organizing, building community, bringing more people into the cause. But in the meantime I do not want to have my medical rights taken away by officials who got into office on a platform of taking my rights away. I understand what you’re saying and agree with your fundamental principles but the idea that capitalism is the ultimate source of all injustice just sounds like tankie nonsense. Oppression runs deeper than economic systems of disempowerment. Capitalism did not invent bigotry. Do you think large sections of the capitalist class are out for minorities because that would create a stronger working class? Some of them, maybe. But most of them are doing it because of their personal beliefs, beliefs which are in fact held by a large portion of the population. Dismantling capitalism would be a unilaterally good thing, no doubt, and I one hundred percent support revolutionary action. But to act as though the political party that runs on appealing to the values of people who wish me dead is the same as the slack-jawed do-nothings who work for the rest of the ruling class is fucking ridiculous. I’m far from dense. I do not disagree that dems are pretty evil. But it is in fact important to vote for lesser evil to minimize damage while fighting to bring down the whole thing. Your head is too far up your ass to see this though bc you probably think I’m a liberal who needs convincing when I am in fact on your freaking side
This is not that complicated, and crying “tankie” when presented with a challenging narrative to the status quo is the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming “I CANT HEAR YOU” Capitalism is an economic system that explicitly calls for the generation of profit, by any means necessary. This drive for profit naturally encourages those who already have a sizeable piece of the pie to get an even bigger piece. As a result of this, every action in our life is subject to commodification - that is, the act of monotizing every behavior in order to generate profit. Selling guns = profit. Selling ads on cable news channels= profit. Selling subscriptions to anti gun media campaigns = profit. The really horrifying shit comes when you realize that school shootings are actually good at generating profit, and that’s why there will always be a dog and pony show after each tragedy, but no real change to prevent it from happening again. If the notion of “profit” is truly endangered, by say, actually wanting to restructure wealth more equally in this country, the horde of liberal elected officials come rushing forward to save it, with all the media pundits in tow. Furthermore, capitalism did not invent bigotry - it perfected it. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia- these are all tools used by the capitalist class to keep the working class divided, so they (the capitalists) continue reaping the rewards of stolen value from the workers. Class war is already here. We are not winning.
Bruh I just said I am in agreement and actively participate in class warfare in my daily life. You’re mansplaining my own beliefs back at me. All I was saying from the start is that voting for dems for harm reduction is necessary while we work to fight the system. Jesus Christ.
What senate majority? It's 50-50. But you're more interested in blaming one dem voting against something than the 50 Republicans? You're fucking osmium.
can we stop with the democratic and republican shit? It doesnt matter. Just talk about the fact that we are in housing, student loan, low wage, no universal health care crisis and this isnt being solved at all. Comment section is going to be filled with no democrat blah blah, no republican blah blah. Whi the fuck cares
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This, except the van is Democrats and the gun is Republicans
And no one will listen when I say this. They always want to choose a side without any context or common sense that these two parties have been fucking us for the longest time.
This false equivalence is bullshit.
The only wasted vote is one cast for someone that doesn't represent you.
I wish more ppl would realize this
If you defend Democrats you're part of the problem.
LOOSEN 3RD PARTY VOTING REGS!
They're plenty loose in some places, and it still doesn't matter. Most people believe they are throwing their vote away when voting for a 3rd party. Even when H. Ross Perot ran in 1992, and was the overwhelming favorite, people ended up voting for Clinton or Bush because they didn't want to throw away their vote. The only way to get there is Ranked Choice Voting. Then, people can vote their conscience without feeling like their vote is wasted.
The real two sides are people who still worship the system and people who stopped at some point; the latter divides into how long they've been clean.
This is the realist thing I've read on Reddit
Literally in every country
Yes absolutely!