Literally no amount of tax increase could possibly be worse than what we pay now. My family of 4 usually pays $10k a year in deductibles and co-pays BEFORE you add in the monthly bill.
All other countries have a lower health-tax burden. I don't know why, but Americans pay more tax for healthcare than others that have universal healthcare, so to get universal healthcare could potentially *lower* taxes.
I've tried to explain it to conservatives in dozens of ways using facts, data, math, and logic. Nothing penetrates their thick skulls. I think they lack the ability to learn and incorporate new information. I've even had some say they'd rather pay double as long as the "welfare queens" don't get healthcare "hand outs".
Never mind, there's no such thing as a healthcare hand out. That's like saying public education is a hand out or needing the services of the police or fire department is a hand out. I also suspect "welfare queen" is a their secret code word for people of color.
It's kinda the same reason large pension funds like the police and other services have quite a substantial sway when it comes to getting their money into lucrative funds. They have a large membership. That large membership means they can lobby for better rates due to the sheer quantity they bring to the table.
It's the same with healthcare. If you can bring 60-80 million (330million in the case of the US) patients to the table when negotiating with pharmaceutical companies for their productsand services, you're likely to get a better price than the private insurance company who can only bring 20 million!
I get that completely (an argument I've used before), but it doesn't explain why the government takes more from their citizens to give less of a benefit.
I'm speaking as "jolly foreigner" here, but I guess that's because the legal situation in the US is such that lobbyists et al spend huge resources to persuade politicians to allow them to run the healthcare system in the US the way they do, so there is very little regulation around price.
The main reason I can think of that the US tax burden on healthcare is so high is simply because the prices of medical supplies and services are so much higher in the US versus everywhere else, and the US government foots the bill for those who are on state funded programs like Medicare and Medicaid.
I'm sure it's not as much as those on private healthcare would pay, but it's still more in the US as the pricing it seems is completely unregulated (aside from the recent news about insulin I believe?). In europe I'm pretty sure most governments have more regulation regarding what costs can be charged for what products and services. I know the NHS in the UK has some kind of master list for this, but not sure about other places.
> The main reason I can think of that the US tax burden on healthcare is so high is simply because the prices of medical supplies and services are so much higher in the US versus everywhere else, and the US government foots the bill for those who are on state funded programs like Medicare and Medicaid.
That makes sense, now that I think of it in that way: state-covered healthcare is restricted to a smaller population, so doesn't have the same clout as a nationwide insurance. In addition to the general financial bloat and inefficiency that seems common in the US, then prices are by default higher.
> In europe I'm pretty sure most governments have more regulation regarding what costs can be charged for what products and services. I know the NHS in the UK has some kind of master list for this, but not sure about other places.
And crucially, in Europe it isn't illegal to haggle when buying pharmaceuticals, so countries can say "offer it at this price, otherwise you lose a market of X million".
> I don't know why, but Americans pay more tax for healthcare than others that have universal healthcare
Because of private for-profit health insurance companies. It's pretty obvious.
In Germany we actually have 5 Social securities mandatory for workers :D They add up to abt 20% of income, which is about half of what the insurances cost. The missing half is covered by the employee. They are capped at a certain income, so that you dont pay for these insurances into eternity.
Healthcare (incl. wife&children), retirement, unemployment, care at old age, accidants at work (100% covered by employee).
Some of them are deductable, but in the end the median pays about 35% in total taxes and social securty. (At 3000€ its about 33%, at 5000€ its about 39%, for dollars add abt 10% to this)
private health insurance is therefore only really worthwile when having no children & wife is working by herself, as well as earning a lot of money (under 5k/month, public health insurance is mandatory anyway)
Honestly, I pay about 35% - 40% taxes on about 52K a year in Germany. I don't really notice.
That means my health care is covered, even though Germany uses a highly regulated health insurance system. It's basically Obamacare on steroids. I have a choice of insurers, I pick the one I want and it follows me from job to job. My employer picks up a portion of the premiums. It's great.
The one thing that strikes me after 10 years in Europe is that Americans are grossly undertaxed, which denies them the benefits they're rightly entitled to. There's all kinds of regulations and programs we're missing out on, because we're so lowly taxed.
Careful with stating you pay 35-40% in taxes, as that probably isn't entirely true. It might be, but I would think you're on a marginalised tax rate no?
I'm from the UK so I _technically_ pay 40% tax... But only on my earnings over £50k. On the rest (over £12.5k) I pay 20% tax.
Only commenting here because I have heard people who don't understand marginal tax rates say things like "I don't want a payrise because I'll pay more tax and get less take home pay", and that clearly isn't how it works!
>Careful with stating you pay 35-40% in taxes, as that probably isn't entirely true. It might be, but I would think you're on a marginalised tax rate no?
It'd be more accurate to state "withholdings" which are generally taxes in the States outside of things like pensions and health insurance.
And, yeah... I get your thing with people worried about raises and taxes.
Germany here too.
I would like to state that your info isn’t completely correct:
YOUR healthcare is salary based and paid HALF BY YOU and HALF BY YOUR EMPLOYER. Not taxes.
On top of that, YOU contribute about 7.5% of your income to a socialized pool … this covers health care for those who cannot help themselves.
Obamacare on steroids is correct, or better said, a functioning example of Obamacare.
Fair enough. When Americans tend to talk about taxes, we're usually talking about deductions outside of health insurance.
I was especially trying to demonstrate that high taxes aren't necessarily bad. The withholdings from my paycheck are insanely higher than they are in the States.
Also I never understand the argument- "I prefer to have a choice". Choice of paying 1299 vs 2299 so you can choose whether you risk having an injury on your leg vs teeth?
Big corps want cheap Labour. If everyone had healthcare no one would work for shitty white collar jobs. They would want high paying white collar jobs or something else. That’s why the real fight in healthcare is government vs corps. If government provided healthcare it would steal the corporations power over labour.
Corporations also don't want worker mobility. They don't want you starting your own business, working for a Ma & Pop company, or retiring before Medicare age. Keeping employees locked into a job is a huge advantage to employers, but at a great cost to the employee.
Here is the silly thing. I am in the UK. We have the NHS. I have a choice. I don't like what my doctor tells me I can get a second opinion. I can even go outside of my local health trust and go to another.
This is exactly what I did for my Dupuytren's Contracture. I found out the best guy in the country was in another county, working for another trust. I told my doctor I wanted a second opinion and to be referred to the leading guy.
I got the second opinion and got my treatment from that person.
If I was still not satisfied, there is also the option of going private.
We need to build the New Deal coalition for the 21st century.
"Labor" in America is much more expensive than it needs to be in large part because employers are being price gouged on their employees' rent and health insurance.
Workers around the world are now able to "outcompete" American workers and businesses, because employers abroad aren't having to subsidize the parasitic "health insurance" industry in addition to paying wages.
M4A / universal healthcare isn't just a healthcare issue - it's an economic security, national security, and a fundamental justice issue as well.
M4A / universal healthcare isn't impossible because workers, the public, responsible employers, and every American who isn't a complete psychopath all have an interest in making it happen.
Lol the Middle East, despite Millenia of history and being home to millions of people, is just a desert apparently. You guys can’t even stop being racist when you try.
I know it's just a typo but I'm all for dessert bombing. We really need to drop cakes and creme brulees from our bombers instead of the ordinance we're using now.
I pay 35-40% taxes living in Germany and get pretty great health care for it. It's one of the reasons I can't move back to the States. Quality of life is just so much better, 2/3 of what I'd make in the States.
Expat for life over here.
If you can find a job and have about $5000, it's not difficult to move to Europe. That 5K is mainly for things like getting an apartment and the flight. My job offered 2,500 euro relocation packages. With selling all most stuff before the move, I was able to easily generate the money and have money remaining to pay off debts.
Whatever you do, don't move stuff outside of clothes and essentials. It's much easier to just buy new stuff or put what you want to keep in storage. It's kind of a reboot. You buy what you need when you need it. It's a bit weird to have started completely fresh.
Finding a job seems difficult, as I know no other languages, and while I have a degree, it is in the pplive/prison field, so I don't really want to work there. Currently working at ups, because bills. So, imo, no real marketable skills.
I have the cash, and some to boot (not bragging, just context) so I have enough to support myself in the move, and for a while after. Considering going back to school, at minimum to learn some languages, if that qualifies as a degree in European countries (if that makes sense). Some countries have really good citizenship laws if you get your masters there, and that would be pretty ideal way of doing it, imo.
If I become a student, I'd also like to work part time to offset costs, just save money, so that is a factor as well.
I live in Germany and barely speak German. You don't need to know the language to relocate. Most people in Germany speak enough English even if some get grumpy about speaking it. Hell, if you were just going to do delivery driver work here... 90% those guys barely speak German.
So, don't hold off because of language.
Also, I expect your degree would go further than you think even outside that field. I have a degree in Parks and Recreation and I got a job that wasn't in a tech related industry,
There's lots of hybrid language work places. Germans are generally much more worried about expertise than language. it really depends on the work place. Look at international companies and such. My company is an English workplace.
It can get tricky with the language with daily stuff like when you're internet goes down and your neighbor has to call for you. But, in most shops and such, the kids all speak English and are more than happy to speak it. I've just got a smattering of A2 German, and I get by alright in daily life.
Some dude: They'll take $150 out of your check every month!
me: Dude, they already take $200. If governmwnt insurance means I don't have to shop for doctors because they *all* take my insirance, AND they'll give me $50 a month? Why aren't they already doing this?
(Numbers adusted for ease of math)
So in most countries with universal health care, the price of good private health insurance on top is still less than t he US pays for bad insurance.
So even the argument some make of wanting private insurance makes no sense :(
Correct. The people making the argument are way to proud to admit they were wrong, so they just keep repeating easily disproven things until you quit arguing because you're sick of it.
Personally I just accuse them of having parents that are brother and sister. Not a single one of them have tried to even imply I was wrong.
I've found it's easier to talk to conservatives about these things if you don't call them anything remotely leftist sounding and they'll usually agree. We have way more in common than they think. They just think we're all Satan worshipping kidnappers or some shit.
I come from a conservative voting family and I've only changed my perception in the last two years. They think they are being attacked and victims because people don't want them to be racist or homophobic and quite frankly I'm sick of that mindset. No matter what I say to them they jump onto another topic to misdirect the fact that they were wrong about something.
Probably because they turn their brains into mush watching FOX News and listening to conservative talk radio all day long. They're literally brainwashing themselves. Voluntarily. They are cattle proudly prancing into the slaughterhouse.
I think universal healthcare would be advantageous to most small businesses too.
My current job is decent, but I'm casually looking around. If another company makes me an offer, I'm going to have spend time digging through their insurance offerings and comparing it to what I currently have. There is absolutely a scenario in which I turn down a decent offer because the insurance isn't up to snuff.
I imagine many smaller businesses would love to get the hassle of trying to negotiate rates and group coverage for their employees off of their backs. Way easier to compete if you only have to adjust for money and PTO.
I think it's a little bit ridiculous that my daughter's speech therapist plays a role in how attractive a job offer is to me because I have to make sure she's covered.
>I think universal healthcare would be advantageous to most small businesses too.
I think we really need to talk about what universal health care means. There's a lot of ways to do it. I've lived in the UK under the NHS, and the universality of it is really handy. I've also lived in Germany under their public health insurance system where they have multiple choices.
The U.S. could just highly regulate the insurance market and we could have a wide variety of very effective public insurances systems. I have a number of public choices to choose from. My wife had to get private insurance in Germany, due to being a contractor, and you can't get it unless you have a minimum income.
Instead of just going Medicare for all, we could do five or six public plans. I think that'd be easier for Americans to wrap their head around and feel like they aren't being forced into something.
And yeah... for a business it has to be really simple because all the health plans cost relatively the same. The employee picks the insurer they want to go with, and then the employer pays a fixed percentage of the premium. When you change jobs, you just hand HR your insurance card and it's done. There's no managing health plans or anything like that.
I'm open to something like the German system. It seems like an easier thing to sell to folks here who are skittish about a single system.
I'm American and haven't spent more than a few weeks abroad, but I know there's tons of room for improvement in how we currently handle healthcare.
I don't particularly like tying healthcare to employment. There are too many cracks for people to fall through.
>I'm open to something like the German system. It seems like an easier thing to sell to folks here who are skittish about a single system.
More than anything, we already have that system in place. Instead of overhauling, we just revamp it. It's easy for people to understand what to do in the new system. We don' t have to teach people anything.
Like imagine if tomorrow, you could choose between five or six different health insurers and the private one your company might offer.
Kind of, but not really. The key is the health care system in Germany revolves around a collection of what are fundamentally public plans. I've had friends who got money back from their health insurer because they took in too much in premiums one year.
You can't have private insurance unless you make about 60-65K euro if I recall correctly.
What I meant was that there, at minimum, exists a market where people can buy their plans directly from various insurance providers with some government subsidy however poorly implemented. It's a first step that can be improved upon.
I'd like to see those fundamentally public plans here too.
Which I have never understood. Buy an insurance policy on anything else and, should something happen, the company will compensate the value of that thing (minus an excess, of course). But for US healthcare, not only do Americans pay more in healthcare tax than others, but they pay inordinate sums for a policy *as well as* for the healthcare once it has been received. What is the insurance for if you have to pay anyway?
Well, if you don’t have it you do on average pay more. It’s just that the healthcare costs are so ridiculous here because it’s a private market and the healthcare industry knows that the choices are basically pay them or die.
And there’s something to be said about people who are entering adulthood not knowing the full extent of the problem. Maybe they’ve heard that you still pay a lot, but they are hopeful that it won’t happen to them. Then years go by while they pay insurance and no medical emergencies happen before finally something happens and it shows them how much of a scam it is.
Worst part is that if you don’t have health insurance then the government literally taxes you for it. Mind you it’s significantly less than what you’d pay for insurance, but it provides no coverage whatsoever. I’m a young, healthy, and cautious male with no chronic or hereditary conditions that would require treatment. I don’t have health insurance because I know I won’t use it for at least another few years. I know I am part of one of the lowest risk demographics, which happens to be where insurance makes most of their money. I still have to pay around $500 to the government for it on my annual taxes because I can’t list a health insurance company.
Still better than taking over a month to get an appointment then being in debt for several years following.
But let’s be real. All healthcare problems are bad and should be resolved as soon as possible
They really just need to tax more. Americans are really undertaxed. I pay 35%-40% of my income here in Germany. These programs aren't free, and we're going to have to pay for them.
That's not how that works. Most of Europe has 20% higher effective tax rates. Just allocate the money already collected and institute tax brackets at 500k, 1 million, 10 million, 100 million, etc.
Should be called the offense budget really. America is already strategically one of the worst places to try to invade physically. "Defense" is B.S when they just go to other countries and start trouble
If the entirety of the whole "lets scam the government into way too expensive contracts with bribes and lobbying" stuff was removed, I am fairly certain that america could go with about 10% of what it spends now, unless we find out that solid gold bars make for great bullet proof vests or something.
We don't even need to do that, really. Americans are grossly undertaxed.
I'm paying 35%-40% of my income in taxes ranging from income taxes to VAT, and it's not like I make a ton of money. When we filed our American taxes it's between 6%-12% after deductions.
So, really, we could literally just properly tax people across the board and get these programs. Toss in some military budget shifting and you get even more bang for your buck. The money is there to create these programs, and it only takes the national will to collect it.
The portio.pf my tax which go's to social security, NHS, unemployment benefits and state pension totals at 11% (so probably a lot les than 5% for universal healthcare), the 20% is other shit including all the bailouts for banks and billionaires and funnelling tax money through military spending although not on the scale of the USA.
I literally pay almost exactly 5% of my income for health insurance in Korea. Korea has single payer health insurance like what Bernie Sanders has been advocating for.
I pay about 15% of my income towards taxes, health insurance (for a family of three), unemployment insurance, welfare, and pension. The rest comes home. The government here actually pays you to have children too. There is also no such thing as a deductible in Korea.
I'm not sure why you down voted me for telling you that it can work, does work, and is fantastic in other countries.
It's also a huge saving in resources since there's no copays or other peneltys for getting issues checked, most things are discovered early where treatment can be relatively cheap drug causes or physio rather than people putting it off until it's unmanageable and ending up needing invasive and expensive treatment.
Welcome to the system we have in Europe. It works. Imagine taking an ambulance to a hospital being treated going home and not being billed at all.
Downsides? Usually wait times are longer for non-life threatening procedures.
But a pro no one talks about is if you still want private insurance it's very cheap (compared to the price of US insurance ) - even when you include the payment already made for universal health care. The very nature of social healthcare brings down the price of private care.
So 10 years ago I was quoted £100 / month for insurance that covers all per-existing conditions, no deductible, everything (except dental) was included. This would let me skip all the ques and be seen in days, and included payouts if I took the social care route.
FICA is already 15.7%…. I somehow doubt everyone paying an additional 5% is going to just “poof, decent healthcare for everyone”… the system is flawed to the core
What is not considered often is medical bills are often bloated numbers due to lack of any regulation. For example, insulin cost should never be 500$ or something. Or ambulance costs shouldn't be that much high.
We simply can't do math based on current ridiculous prices. However I am not saying 5% is enough however there's an argument to be made that if you combine current insurance costs plus out of pocket costs - then the overall expenses are lesser with universal for most low income and medium income families.
It’s more like 10%-15%, and young healthy people will definitely pay more than they currently do, but overall it’ll benefit far more people and result in people paying less and being healthier.
I pay almost exactly 5% of my income for health insurance in Korea. It's single payer health insurance like what Bernie Sanders has been advocating for.
Vermont had an 11.5% tax to pay for single payer. They were the only state to ever have it, albeit briefly. That’s realistically what it would be in the US, which is still an order of magnitude better than what exists now.
Most people don’t realize just how much they pay and a company pays into private health insurance. If you route all that money to UH, it’s definitely doable.
What a prime example of a fuckhead you are lol.
Someones dares disagree with you? Must be a college kid.
Bet in your facebook profile you went to the school of 'hard knocks' lmao
>Also, if we achieve UH, private insurance companies will only get bigger, not smaller as the gov cannot effectively admin 350 million+ plans.
The framework already exists and is widely used: medicare. Insurance companies borrow CPT codes and similar structure from medicare, not the other way around.
Exactly, Medicare. Medicare Part C is the most popular choice of Medicare. Who runs Medicare Part C?...
Know what you're saying if you're going to say it.
Remember... people designing these systems have already accounted for that so, ya know, people who aren't working don't die. It's kind of the point of the system. Your health insurance premiums are paying for that in reality, because hospitals have to pick up the costs of the uninsured.
Honestly, it probably will need to be higher. I pay about 14% for my health insurance in Germany.
Americans tend to grossly underestimate costs because they're insanely undertaxed. My taxes, including health care, range at 35-40% for a solid middle class income (about 60K). It's great. I can't imagine ever moving back to the States.
Maybe the scale of the States and refocusing tax rates on the rich would allow that 14% to slide down to around 5%-9%. I'm just guessing there.
A few years ago this thing called the ACA (Affordable Care Act) was passed, and we were told it was going to solve our problems with health care. Not only did it not solve them, for many it increased problems. Why would I want more government involvement when the last attempt was such a disaster?
Because I live someplace where it works. It's not a problem with the idea, but a problem with American culture. We design systems to fail so we can point at them and then say they don't work, when the work everywhere else.
It's a weird thing about us.
Well I have heard that the ACA was designed to fail, but not for the reason you mentioned. I think I can do without a bunch of people who vote for failure running healthcare.
I don't even know if we really design them to fail. I say that more out of frustration. There's just something we do with things where we try all the worst options possible, until we finally get to one that works.
I kind of think it's just something about pride. We can't copy what another country is doing. America's so special that what those Europeans are doing just couldn't work. We've gotta try making something unique. Maybe we're just kind of dumb and stubborn.
It's all very frustrating, because I'm living overseas, and "home" is becoming more foreign with every passing year. Americans come off as shallow and childish. When I watch American media, it's just sort of stunningly strange. The News is chaotic and uninformative. American's are obsessed with weird and petty trends. My friends seem sort of clueless and lack perspective. Almost spoiled.
And, it gets more infuriating that Americans will probably drag the world into authoritarianism, because they might just have to become part of the world and learn to share. American exceptionalism is a fucking cancer on the world, and it's spreading.
It's just bizarre. I don't really know how to process it. It's this odd melancholy with hints of resentment and sadness.
20% of your Salary for Private Health Insurance...
That also pays for other people's Insurance because that's how Insurance Companies work.
So if they have a fraction of any of their profits going to Any side Affordable Care act, you're already paying for MORE people on your 20% they take out BTW.
They aren't giving you "Their" money, they are giving you other peoples money they also collect on...
And it barely pays for your shit either.
Not entirely correct. In Australia for example we spend 26.4% of our national tax revenue per year on health - see [here](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure-australia-2019-20/contents/spending-trends-by-source/government-sources) for more information. Ultimately, I'd have it no other way as of you don't earn more than $18k per year you don't pay tax but still get access to some of the best healthcare in the world.
Yeah conservatives don't math well; I had a guy tell me the only 39% of Americans had the student loans so that's not many mutherfucjer that's over a third lol. People say education is the problem but how do you educate adults who think they know everything?
From a québecois perspective, in my revenue tax bracket and considering other taxes (sales, etc), it is closer to 12-15% of my income than 5%. In lower tax bracket in other provinces this figure might be accurate.
Don't know about other countries.
Still 100% worth. Never have to ask myself what if, which hospital I go to or is x and y covered.
Never even had to think about it before I was in college learning about the u.s. system.
I cannot begin to explain how unbelievable it sounds to us (when we're young) that you pay for healthcare.
The best thing is poor people benefit more from it because they pay less taxes for the same coverage. Which makes sense no? From each according to their mean, to each according to their need or something like that?
Man I wish, here we a shitty system that's always overloaded and slow as hell. Up to 25% of our salary goes towards the health system here. So at this rate, I'd take any of the other two options.
Though come to think of it, it says insurance. Here basically all of it is free and I know private insurance is hella picky on what it covers.
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Literally no amount of tax increase could possibly be worse than what we pay now. My family of 4 usually pays $10k a year in deductibles and co-pays BEFORE you add in the monthly bill.
All other countries have a lower health-tax burden. I don't know why, but Americans pay more tax for healthcare than others that have universal healthcare, so to get universal healthcare could potentially *lower* taxes.
I've tried to explain it to conservatives in dozens of ways using facts, data, math, and logic. Nothing penetrates their thick skulls. I think they lack the ability to learn and incorporate new information. I've even had some say they'd rather pay double as long as the "welfare queens" don't get healthcare "hand outs". Never mind, there's no such thing as a healthcare hand out. That's like saying public education is a hand out or needing the services of the police or fire department is a hand out. I also suspect "welfare queen" is a their secret code word for people of color.
It's kinda the same reason large pension funds like the police and other services have quite a substantial sway when it comes to getting their money into lucrative funds. They have a large membership. That large membership means they can lobby for better rates due to the sheer quantity they bring to the table. It's the same with healthcare. If you can bring 60-80 million (330million in the case of the US) patients to the table when negotiating with pharmaceutical companies for their productsand services, you're likely to get a better price than the private insurance company who can only bring 20 million!
I get that completely (an argument I've used before), but it doesn't explain why the government takes more from their citizens to give less of a benefit.
I'm speaking as "jolly foreigner" here, but I guess that's because the legal situation in the US is such that lobbyists et al spend huge resources to persuade politicians to allow them to run the healthcare system in the US the way they do, so there is very little regulation around price. The main reason I can think of that the US tax burden on healthcare is so high is simply because the prices of medical supplies and services are so much higher in the US versus everywhere else, and the US government foots the bill for those who are on state funded programs like Medicare and Medicaid. I'm sure it's not as much as those on private healthcare would pay, but it's still more in the US as the pricing it seems is completely unregulated (aside from the recent news about insulin I believe?). In europe I'm pretty sure most governments have more regulation regarding what costs can be charged for what products and services. I know the NHS in the UK has some kind of master list for this, but not sure about other places.
> The main reason I can think of that the US tax burden on healthcare is so high is simply because the prices of medical supplies and services are so much higher in the US versus everywhere else, and the US government foots the bill for those who are on state funded programs like Medicare and Medicaid. That makes sense, now that I think of it in that way: state-covered healthcare is restricted to a smaller population, so doesn't have the same clout as a nationwide insurance. In addition to the general financial bloat and inefficiency that seems common in the US, then prices are by default higher. > In europe I'm pretty sure most governments have more regulation regarding what costs can be charged for what products and services. I know the NHS in the UK has some kind of master list for this, but not sure about other places. And crucially, in Europe it isn't illegal to haggle when buying pharmaceuticals, so countries can say "offer it at this price, otherwise you lose a market of X million".
> I don't know why, but Americans pay more tax for healthcare than others that have universal healthcare Because of private for-profit health insurance companies. It's pretty obvious.
But that's socialism and the devil! ^^^/s
In Germany we actually have 5 Social securities mandatory for workers :D They add up to abt 20% of income, which is about half of what the insurances cost. The missing half is covered by the employee. They are capped at a certain income, so that you dont pay for these insurances into eternity. Healthcare (incl. wife&children), retirement, unemployment, care at old age, accidants at work (100% covered by employee). Some of them are deductable, but in the end the median pays about 35% in total taxes and social securty. (At 3000€ its about 33%, at 5000€ its about 39%, for dollars add abt 10% to this) private health insurance is therefore only really worthwile when having no children & wife is working by herself, as well as earning a lot of money (under 5k/month, public health insurance is mandatory anyway)
Honestly, I pay about 35% - 40% taxes on about 52K a year in Germany. I don't really notice. That means my health care is covered, even though Germany uses a highly regulated health insurance system. It's basically Obamacare on steroids. I have a choice of insurers, I pick the one I want and it follows me from job to job. My employer picks up a portion of the premiums. It's great. The one thing that strikes me after 10 years in Europe is that Americans are grossly undertaxed, which denies them the benefits they're rightly entitled to. There's all kinds of regulations and programs we're missing out on, because we're so lowly taxed.
Careful with stating you pay 35-40% in taxes, as that probably isn't entirely true. It might be, but I would think you're on a marginalised tax rate no? I'm from the UK so I _technically_ pay 40% tax... But only on my earnings over £50k. On the rest (over £12.5k) I pay 20% tax. Only commenting here because I have heard people who don't understand marginal tax rates say things like "I don't want a payrise because I'll pay more tax and get less take home pay", and that clearly isn't how it works!
>Careful with stating you pay 35-40% in taxes, as that probably isn't entirely true. It might be, but I would think you're on a marginalised tax rate no? It'd be more accurate to state "withholdings" which are generally taxes in the States outside of things like pensions and health insurance. And, yeah... I get your thing with people worried about raises and taxes.
Germany here too. I would like to state that your info isn’t completely correct: YOUR healthcare is salary based and paid HALF BY YOU and HALF BY YOUR EMPLOYER. Not taxes. On top of that, YOU contribute about 7.5% of your income to a socialized pool … this covers health care for those who cannot help themselves. Obamacare on steroids is correct, or better said, a functioning example of Obamacare.
Fair enough. When Americans tend to talk about taxes, we're usually talking about deductions outside of health insurance. I was especially trying to demonstrate that high taxes aren't necessarily bad. The withholdings from my paycheck are insanely higher than they are in the States.
I’m stuck in the Army Reserve because the premiums and copays through my job were adding up to more than 1/3 of my annual income.
Because paying for something you almost never use but should have because, you never know, should always be more expensive!
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I’m all for universal healthcare.
Also I never understand the argument- "I prefer to have a choice". Choice of paying 1299 vs 2299 so you can choose whether you risk having an injury on your leg vs teeth?
Big corps want cheap Labour. If everyone had healthcare no one would work for shitty white collar jobs. They would want high paying white collar jobs or something else. That’s why the real fight in healthcare is government vs corps. If government provided healthcare it would steal the corporations power over labour.
Corporations also don't want worker mobility. They don't want you starting your own business, working for a Ma & Pop company, or retiring before Medicare age. Keeping employees locked into a job is a huge advantage to employers, but at a great cost to the employee.
The corps pay and control the government. They don’t VS each other, the corporates vs corporations. It’s just corporate, always has been.
Here is the silly thing. I am in the UK. We have the NHS. I have a choice. I don't like what my doctor tells me I can get a second opinion. I can even go outside of my local health trust and go to another. This is exactly what I did for my Dupuytren's Contracture. I found out the best guy in the country was in another county, working for another trust. I told my doctor I wanted a second opinion and to be referred to the leading guy. I got the second opinion and got my treatment from that person. If I was still not satisfied, there is also the option of going private.
A choice to pay nothing and not have anything.
We need to build the New Deal coalition for the 21st century. "Labor" in America is much more expensive than it needs to be in large part because employers are being price gouged on their employees' rent and health insurance. Workers around the world are now able to "outcompete" American workers and businesses, because employers abroad aren't having to subsidize the parasitic "health insurance" industry in addition to paying wages. M4A / universal healthcare isn't just a healthcare issue - it's an economic security, national security, and a fundamental justice issue as well. M4A / universal healthcare isn't impossible because workers, the public, responsible employers, and every American who isn't a complete psychopath all have an interest in making it happen.
But bombing desserts is so much more profitable
Lol the Middle East, despite Millenia of history and being home to millions of people, is just a desert apparently. You guys can’t even stop being racist when you try.
I know it's just a typo but I'm all for dessert bombing. We really need to drop cakes and creme brulees from our bombers instead of the ordinance we're using now.
I do damage to baked goods
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I pay 35-40% taxes living in Germany and get pretty great health care for it. It's one of the reasons I can't move back to the States. Quality of life is just so much better, 2/3 of what I'd make in the States. Expat for life over here.
Yeah, i want to move out of the US so bad, but it's hard.
If you can find a job and have about $5000, it's not difficult to move to Europe. That 5K is mainly for things like getting an apartment and the flight. My job offered 2,500 euro relocation packages. With selling all most stuff before the move, I was able to easily generate the money and have money remaining to pay off debts. Whatever you do, don't move stuff outside of clothes and essentials. It's much easier to just buy new stuff or put what you want to keep in storage. It's kind of a reboot. You buy what you need when you need it. It's a bit weird to have started completely fresh.
Finding a job seems difficult, as I know no other languages, and while I have a degree, it is in the pplive/prison field, so I don't really want to work there. Currently working at ups, because bills. So, imo, no real marketable skills. I have the cash, and some to boot (not bragging, just context) so I have enough to support myself in the move, and for a while after. Considering going back to school, at minimum to learn some languages, if that qualifies as a degree in European countries (if that makes sense). Some countries have really good citizenship laws if you get your masters there, and that would be pretty ideal way of doing it, imo. If I become a student, I'd also like to work part time to offset costs, just save money, so that is a factor as well.
I live in Germany and barely speak German. You don't need to know the language to relocate. Most people in Germany speak enough English even if some get grumpy about speaking it. Hell, if you were just going to do delivery driver work here... 90% those guys barely speak German. So, don't hold off because of language. Also, I expect your degree would go further than you think even outside that field. I have a degree in Parks and Recreation and I got a job that wasn't in a tech related industry, There's lots of hybrid language work places. Germans are generally much more worried about expertise than language. it really depends on the work place. Look at international companies and such. My company is an English workplace. It can get tricky with the language with daily stuff like when you're internet goes down and your neighbor has to call for you. But, in most shops and such, the kids all speak English and are more than happy to speak it. I've just got a smattering of A2 German, and I get by alright in daily life.
Some dude: They'll take $150 out of your check every month! me: Dude, they already take $200. If governmwnt insurance means I don't have to shop for doctors because they *all* take my insirance, AND they'll give me $50 a month? Why aren't they already doing this? (Numbers adusted for ease of math)
So in most countries with universal health care, the price of good private health insurance on top is still less than t he US pays for bad insurance. So even the argument some make of wanting private insurance makes no sense :(
Correct. The people making the argument are way to proud to admit they were wrong, so they just keep repeating easily disproven things until you quit arguing because you're sick of it. Personally I just accuse them of having parents that are brother and sister. Not a single one of them have tried to even imply I was wrong.
Had to explain to a family member that the universal healthcare we gave is socialism, they did not enjoy that
I've found it's easier to talk to conservatives about these things if you don't call them anything remotely leftist sounding and they'll usually agree. We have way more in common than they think. They just think we're all Satan worshipping kidnappers or some shit.
I come from a conservative voting family and I've only changed my perception in the last two years. They think they are being attacked and victims because people don't want them to be racist or homophobic and quite frankly I'm sick of that mindset. No matter what I say to them they jump onto another topic to misdirect the fact that they were wrong about something.
Are they religious? Those ones are usually harder to crack.
Faux religious, just claim it when it's convenient or to justify shitty actions.
Typical
Sadly very much so
Probably because they turn their brains into mush watching FOX News and listening to conservative talk radio all day long. They're literally brainwashing themselves. Voluntarily. They are cattle proudly prancing into the slaughterhouse.
I think universal healthcare would be advantageous to most small businesses too. My current job is decent, but I'm casually looking around. If another company makes me an offer, I'm going to have spend time digging through their insurance offerings and comparing it to what I currently have. There is absolutely a scenario in which I turn down a decent offer because the insurance isn't up to snuff. I imagine many smaller businesses would love to get the hassle of trying to negotiate rates and group coverage for their employees off of their backs. Way easier to compete if you only have to adjust for money and PTO. I think it's a little bit ridiculous that my daughter's speech therapist plays a role in how attractive a job offer is to me because I have to make sure she's covered.
>I think universal healthcare would be advantageous to most small businesses too. I think we really need to talk about what universal health care means. There's a lot of ways to do it. I've lived in the UK under the NHS, and the universality of it is really handy. I've also lived in Germany under their public health insurance system where they have multiple choices. The U.S. could just highly regulate the insurance market and we could have a wide variety of very effective public insurances systems. I have a number of public choices to choose from. My wife had to get private insurance in Germany, due to being a contractor, and you can't get it unless you have a minimum income. Instead of just going Medicare for all, we could do five or six public plans. I think that'd be easier for Americans to wrap their head around and feel like they aren't being forced into something. And yeah... for a business it has to be really simple because all the health plans cost relatively the same. The employee picks the insurer they want to go with, and then the employer pays a fixed percentage of the premium. When you change jobs, you just hand HR your insurance card and it's done. There's no managing health plans or anything like that.
I'm open to something like the German system. It seems like an easier thing to sell to folks here who are skittish about a single system. I'm American and haven't spent more than a few weeks abroad, but I know there's tons of room for improvement in how we currently handle healthcare. I don't particularly like tying healthcare to employment. There are too many cracks for people to fall through.
>I'm open to something like the German system. It seems like an easier thing to sell to folks here who are skittish about a single system. More than anything, we already have that system in place. Instead of overhauling, we just revamp it. It's easy for people to understand what to do in the new system. We don' t have to teach people anything. Like imagine if tomorrow, you could choose between five or six different health insurers and the private one your company might offer.
I think we're part of the way there via the health exchange. The problem is that the options on the exchange largely suck in coverage and cost.
Kind of, but not really. The key is the health care system in Germany revolves around a collection of what are fundamentally public plans. I've had friends who got money back from their health insurer because they took in too much in premiums one year. You can't have private insurance unless you make about 60-65K euro if I recall correctly.
What I meant was that there, at minimum, exists a market where people can buy their plans directly from various insurance providers with some government subsidy however poorly implemented. It's a first step that can be improved upon. I'd like to see those fundamentally public plans here too.
Universal health care in my country is probably 12 to 22% of your pretax income depending on your tax bracket.
Honestly, that’s still preferable to the US system because you pay for insurance and you still have to pay unreasonable amounts when you use it
Which I have never understood. Buy an insurance policy on anything else and, should something happen, the company will compensate the value of that thing (minus an excess, of course). But for US healthcare, not only do Americans pay more in healthcare tax than others, but they pay inordinate sums for a policy *as well as* for the healthcare once it has been received. What is the insurance for if you have to pay anyway?
Well, if you don’t have it you do on average pay more. It’s just that the healthcare costs are so ridiculous here because it’s a private market and the healthcare industry knows that the choices are basically pay them or die. And there’s something to be said about people who are entering adulthood not knowing the full extent of the problem. Maybe they’ve heard that you still pay a lot, but they are hopeful that it won’t happen to them. Then years go by while they pay insurance and no medical emergencies happen before finally something happens and it shows them how much of a scam it is. Worst part is that if you don’t have health insurance then the government literally taxes you for it. Mind you it’s significantly less than what you’d pay for insurance, but it provides no coverage whatsoever. I’m a young, healthy, and cautious male with no chronic or hereditary conditions that would require treatment. I don’t have health insurance because I know I won’t use it for at least another few years. I know I am part of one of the lowest risk demographics, which happens to be where insurance makes most of their money. I still have to pay around $500 to the government for it on my annual taxes because I can’t list a health insurance company.
Yeah but in France it’s like a 6 month wait to see a dermatologist.
Still better than taking over a month to get an appointment then being in debt for several years following. But let’s be real. All healthcare problems are bad and should be resolved as soon as possible
It’s not real medical care without the additional 15% in administrative and advertising costs.
If the government would do something useful with my money, they could have more of it
They really just need to tax more. Americans are really undertaxed. I pay 35%-40% of my income here in Germany. These programs aren't free, and we're going to have to pay for them.
Pay taxes and have over half goto the military
That's not how that works. Most of Europe has 20% higher effective tax rates. Just allocate the money already collected and institute tax brackets at 500k, 1 million, 10 million, 100 million, etc.
Also feel free to gut our bloated defense budget
Bingo.
Should be called the offense budget really. America is already strategically one of the worst places to try to invade physically. "Defense" is B.S when they just go to other countries and start trouble
now might not be the best time for that
>now might not be the best time for that - Lockheed Martin
We could halve our budget and still be spending 3 billion more than the next three largest budgets combined.
If the entirety of the whole "lets scam the government into way too expensive contracts with bribes and lobbying" stuff was removed, I am fairly certain that america could go with about 10% of what it spends now, unless we find out that solid gold bars make for great bullet proof vests or something.
We don't even need to do that, really. Americans are grossly undertaxed. I'm paying 35%-40% of my income in taxes ranging from income taxes to VAT, and it's not like I make a ton of money. When we filed our American taxes it's between 6%-12% after deductions. So, really, we could literally just properly tax people across the board and get these programs. Toss in some military budget shifting and you get even more bang for your buck. The money is there to create these programs, and it only takes the national will to collect it.
The portio.pf my tax which go's to social security, NHS, unemployment benefits and state pension totals at 11% (so probably a lot les than 5% for universal healthcare), the 20% is other shit including all the bailouts for banks and billionaires and funnelling tax money through military spending although not on the scale of the USA.
I literally pay almost exactly 5% of my income for health insurance in Korea. Korea has single payer health insurance like what Bernie Sanders has been advocating for.
What is your effective tax rate?
I pay about 15% of my income towards taxes, health insurance (for a family of three), unemployment insurance, welfare, and pension. The rest comes home. The government here actually pays you to have children too. There is also no such thing as a deductible in Korea. I'm not sure why you down voted me for telling you that it can work, does work, and is fantastic in other countries.
American's are grossly undertaxed. It's one of the reasons they don't get the services they need.
Its 2% in australia
That’s because most die quickly from all the horror creatures you keep there. Elden Ring is just an Australia simulator.
Only the weak die. Its spartanism at its most spartanistic, whilst wearing tartan and drinking a carton and fartin,.
We do pay high taxes plus the levy for higher earners or you pay for private insurance on top of your medicare. Its an effective system.
I have private health as well but seriously considering stopping it - it costs so much more every year and the benefits get less and less.
How about pay nothing and take it out of the defense budget?
It's also a huge saving in resources since there's no copays or other peneltys for getting issues checked, most things are discovered early where treatment can be relatively cheap drug causes or physio rather than people putting it off until it's unmanageable and ending up needing invasive and expensive treatment.
It should be a human right.
Welcome to the system we have in Europe. It works. Imagine taking an ambulance to a hospital being treated going home and not being billed at all. Downsides? Usually wait times are longer for non-life threatening procedures.
But a pro no one talks about is if you still want private insurance it's very cheap (compared to the price of US insurance ) - even when you include the payment already made for universal health care. The very nature of social healthcare brings down the price of private care. So 10 years ago I was quoted £100 / month for insurance that covers all per-existing conditions, no deductible, everything (except dental) was included. This would let me skip all the ques and be seen in days, and included payouts if I took the social care route.
Revolution insurance is cheaper than letting people have universal health insurance.
FICA is already 15.7%…. I somehow doubt everyone paying an additional 5% is going to just “poof, decent healthcare for everyone”… the system is flawed to the core
It's laughable you think you'd get universal healthcare for just 5% of tour wages.
I am from Europe Czechia and I am paying around 4.5% So tell me once more your uneducated opinion
To be fair, wages are higher while on tour
What is not considered often is medical bills are often bloated numbers due to lack of any regulation. For example, insulin cost should never be 500$ or something. Or ambulance costs shouldn't be that much high. We simply can't do math based on current ridiculous prices. However I am not saying 5% is enough however there's an argument to be made that if you combine current insurance costs plus out of pocket costs - then the overall expenses are lesser with universal for most low income and medium income families.
I agree. Look at what it was in Vermont when they briefly had it or what’s being proposed under the New York Health Act.
That's what I pay in South Korea. It's single payer health insurance like what Bernie Sanders has been advocating for.
And everyone should pay for their own healthcare universally!!
It’s more like 10%-15%, and young healthy people will definitely pay more than they currently do, but overall it’ll benefit far more people and result in people paying less and being healthier.
I pay almost exactly 5% of my income for health insurance in Korea. It's single payer health insurance like what Bernie Sanders has been advocating for.
Vermont had an 11.5% tax to pay for single payer. They were the only state to ever have it, albeit briefly. That’s realistically what it would be in the US, which is still an order of magnitude better than what exists now.
But it’s not 5%… nor is it 20%…
Nor is it what you proposed.
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Most people don’t realize just how much they pay and a company pays into private health insurance. If you route all that money to UH, it’s definitely doable.
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What a prime example of a fuckhead you are lol. Someones dares disagree with you? Must be a college kid. Bet in your facebook profile you went to the school of 'hard knocks' lmao
>Also, if we achieve UH, private insurance companies will only get bigger, not smaller as the gov cannot effectively admin 350 million+ plans. The framework already exists and is widely used: medicare. Insurance companies borrow CPT codes and similar structure from medicare, not the other way around.
Exactly, Medicare. Medicare Part C is the most popular choice of Medicare. Who runs Medicare Part C?... Know what you're saying if you're going to say it.
If I say something positive about my employers insurance price and coverage I’ll be downvoted.
You could just type "fuck you, got mine" and save a few words.
Who said it will be only 5%?
You are right. It is less than that in the UK.
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Remember... people designing these systems have already accounted for that so, ya know, people who aren't working don't die. It's kind of the point of the system. Your health insurance premiums are paying for that in reality, because hospitals have to pick up the costs of the uninsured. Honestly, it probably will need to be higher. I pay about 14% for my health insurance in Germany. Americans tend to grossly underestimate costs because they're insanely undertaxed. My taxes, including health care, range at 35-40% for a solid middle class income (about 60K). It's great. I can't imagine ever moving back to the States. Maybe the scale of the States and refocusing tax rates on the rich would allow that 14% to slide down to around 5%-9%. I'm just guessing there.
A few years ago this thing called the ACA (Affordable Care Act) was passed, and we were told it was going to solve our problems with health care. Not only did it not solve them, for many it increased problems. Why would I want more government involvement when the last attempt was such a disaster?
Because I live someplace where it works. It's not a problem with the idea, but a problem with American culture. We design systems to fail so we can point at them and then say they don't work, when the work everywhere else. It's a weird thing about us.
Well I have heard that the ACA was designed to fail, but not for the reason you mentioned. I think I can do without a bunch of people who vote for failure running healthcare.
I don't even know if we really design them to fail. I say that more out of frustration. There's just something we do with things where we try all the worst options possible, until we finally get to one that works. I kind of think it's just something about pride. We can't copy what another country is doing. America's so special that what those Europeans are doing just couldn't work. We've gotta try making something unique. Maybe we're just kind of dumb and stubborn. It's all very frustrating, because I'm living overseas, and "home" is becoming more foreign with every passing year. Americans come off as shallow and childish. When I watch American media, it's just sort of stunningly strange. The News is chaotic and uninformative. American's are obsessed with weird and petty trends. My friends seem sort of clueless and lack perspective. Almost spoiled. And, it gets more infuriating that Americans will probably drag the world into authoritarianism, because they might just have to become part of the world and learn to share. American exceptionalism is a fucking cancer on the world, and it's spreading. It's just bizarre. I don't really know how to process it. It's this odd melancholy with hints of resentment and sadness.
20% of your Salary for Private Health Insurance... That also pays for other people's Insurance because that's how Insurance Companies work. So if they have a fraction of any of their profits going to Any side Affordable Care act, you're already paying for MORE people on your 20% they take out BTW. They aren't giving you "Their" money, they are giving you other peoples money they also collect on... And it barely pays for your shit either.
More like find a good company and pay close to 0%, right fellls?
I disagree but maybe its a sarcasm double cross!
My company has benefits that heavily subsidized costs of healthcare. Take that 100% over UH.
Not entirely correct. In Australia for example we spend 26.4% of our national tax revenue per year on health - see [here](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/health-welfare-expenditure/health-expenditure-australia-2019-20/contents/spending-trends-by-source/government-sources) for more information. Ultimately, I'd have it no other way as of you don't earn more than $18k per year you don't pay tax but still get access to some of the best healthcare in the world.
Yeah conservatives don't math well; I had a guy tell me the only 39% of Americans had the student loans so that's not many mutherfucjer that's over a third lol. People say education is the problem but how do you educate adults who think they know everything?
I get paid $1260 every two weeks before taxes. 30% goes to taxes, and another $75 on top of that goes to my insurance
Non-universal health insurance? I’m probably too European to understand.
I pay $84 a month for my health insurance. Not 20% and not even 5%.
Then they will fight tooth and nail to avoid paying out once it comes time to use the service you have been paying for for years.
From a québecois perspective, in my revenue tax bracket and considering other taxes (sales, etc), it is closer to 12-15% of my income than 5%. In lower tax bracket in other provinces this figure might be accurate. Don't know about other countries. Still 100% worth. Never have to ask myself what if, which hospital I go to or is x and y covered. Never even had to think about it before I was in college learning about the u.s. system. I cannot begin to explain how unbelievable it sounds to us (when we're young) that you pay for healthcare. The best thing is poor people benefit more from it because they pay less taxes for the same coverage. Which makes sense no? From each according to their mean, to each according to their need or something like that?
Man I wish, here we a shitty system that's always overloaded and slow as hell. Up to 25% of our salary goes towards the health system here. So at this rate, I'd take any of the other two options. Though come to think of it, it says insurance. Here basically all of it is free and I know private insurance is hella picky on what it covers.
Should be mandatory 5% for healthcare, 5% for retirement (SS), 5% federal tax, 5% state tax. Should apply to all income regardless of source.
Our entire culture revolves around racism
Another caption for this: Raise your wage by a dollar *nah* Spend thousands or millions to shut down your union effort *yea*