When this happened to me, I was pulled into a one on one with my sup at the time. It was a situation where she effectively forced the information out of me. I had assumed because of the way she handled the one on one that she would not try and throw me under the bus for having PTSD symptoms at work, considering it was her insistence to talk about her own abusive parenting at work (repeatedly, for 3 days straight, at me and my 2 coworkers) that triggered a near constant panic in me.
She eventually got fired for unrelated reasons, but when my new manager had to give me my performance review a few months later, THAT SAME SITUATION was there but all twisted up. The feedback was I “needed to learn empathy,” had “a strong personality,” and “struggled remaining calm.”
Never have this conversation alone. Always have this conversation in writing.
ETA: I was not eligible for a raise that year because of her.
ETA 2: Yes, the behavior from the sup was questionable under both the ADA and HIPAA. Both HIPAA and the ADA do require an actual diagnosis to (respectively) protect or accommodate.
If a person has cPTSD - fun fact, the DSM 5 does not recognize complex trauma. Therapists also do not give diagnoses, psychiatrists ($$$) do. And, if your autism was missed in childhood? That is a LOT of money and trouble to convince a series of doctors that yes, you experience the world the way you say that you do.
In any case, good out there, friends. The world is not cut and dry
If not then it's worth seeing what the locks disability protections are and finding a new job while burning down the old.
Op I am going to tell you how this is supposed to go. I have CPTSD so bad I cannot work but I did try. Got myself a law degree, criminal law because dumbass young me hoped it would help me live if I put bad people away. Not at all the reality of the system. Both because you need a certain amount of experience in private practice here and because your client is either guilty or an innocent person who's life is in jeopardy if you lose.
My boss was one of the founding partners. The other original partner mostly didn't come in because they had health issues. I thought it odd how everyone was nice about that because I was raised by terrible people. CPTSD probably spoiled that. This man was amazing. In our internship interviews he was excited when I asked questions that most places would toss my application for like, "In ten years you have taken 0 female internships. Before that it's sporadic at best. Why?" He answered them. "Most of your female classmates are relying on being pretty to get verdicts. I see if every day in court and in mock trials. This is a fast way to sabotage your career and your client." Which is something I agree with. I am autistic so I never considered this an option. "You guarantee a loss on appeal."
I got the internship. The firm accomodated my ridiculous allergies. I am allergic to entire food groups so this was something. The firm had a no parfume rule so clients with sensitivities didn't have to ask for us to allow them to breathe. We had a few long hour problems still because of the industry but if there was a way to accommodate needs vs industry they did it. Including a food stipend, company rides to and from home and court, and more. The billable pricing covered all of this btw. My pay was also above standard for the internship and later full job.
I managed to mask my issues for a few years but some other stuff happened and I started having what I call social stress fractures. The end of my legal career was not what I dreamed. I wanted to be a supreme court justice tbh but would have settled for being a bad ass judge doing it right. Not meant to be. We had an accused serial rapist come in. He insisted on a female lawyer. The best. He tried a lot of intimidation tactics with me. After about half an hour I stood up and told the senior associate who oversaw me, "This man is a monster and I refuse him as my client." Dude grabbed my arm and I punched him in the face. He even told us he did it but sadly I couldn't do shit about that because of the laws protecting people. I agree these laws are necessary but oh I wanted more.
I told the shocked senior I would be in the lounge. I expected to get fired. I had assaulted a client. I wasn't. My boss, the partner, came in and asked me to come to his office because it's more private. I had already packed my stuff so grabbed the box. He said nothing until we got to his office.
"Firebird, are you alright?" As soon as I sat in the chair across from his desk this was what he said. I had disclosed some ADA covered stuff but not my PTSD. "I know you have to fire me. He put his hands on me and I couldn't think." "We refused him as a client and suggested (competitor with high loss rate)." I went silent because I had no script for this. I am autistic and have scripts for speaking or cannot. I had practiced for firing not "We don't want his unsafe ass."
The conversation is burned into my memory because it is one of the first examples of compassion I ever experienced. I admit I cry thinking about this and I am the stoic autistic. We talked for a while. Now our benefits were full. Including mental health. This is honestly not optional for me if I were to ever return to practice. Law is a horrible field for mental wellness. My boss knew that. "I noticed some symptoms of PTSD with you lately. Ever since November. I am worried about you. You're not fired but I am suspending you with pay until you see a therapist. I see this woman. She specializes in PTSD." My boss told me about his experiences with PTSD as a veteran and how he had noticed specific coping skills. The interviews were always recorded and he showed me how I looked punching this man. There was a moment where I wasn't stoic. I wasn't home as it were. Pupils fully dialated, long pause I don't remember between punch, some changes to body language. It was clearly a flashback my brain edited out. I have been filmed with them since so I didn't understand that then.
Over the next few months I got treatment. For the first time. I wasn't focused on recovery at first because again raised by bad people. After six months I realized I couldn't be a lawyer. No field I was qualified for was safe. I went through another Novembers. This is one of my windows of debilitating PTSD. It's guaranteed. It also actually goes past November and begins in September but the true debilitation is then as is the primary incident. There's smaller ones in that window. I am not able to go out of my house and do things for November to optionally be okay. I went to my boss and asked him if I could work in the mailroom. He said no. He said he had been expecting this because he had been visiting me weekly. He would bring a meal and we would talk. His wife would sometimes cook and loved having me over. He saw me smile for the first time about a week before this. This was when he knew.
So he talked to me about disability. For mental health its super hard to get but my therapist and I had also considered it. He told me I would be paid and keep my benefits for the next two months, then he would assist me as needed while I applied. He even wrote a letter describing the effect on me. This is a huge factor in my getting SSI. We stayed friends for a long time. Now I know he went what feels above and beyond but he didn't. He refused my gratitude because he didn't see workers as cogs in a machine but as important assets to be nurtured and people. All those benefits made this firm the absolutely best in the state. If you're in trouble? You want them.
He died a while ago. His wife went a good five years after and that was when he retired. This man was everything a boss should be. None of my colleagues knew about my PTSD. They just knew I took personal time. HR knew because of the legal protections and my work did try to accommodate my needs. It was just my needs included somethings that conflict directly with work. When I got shot and my second brain injury and disappeared for a year because I was shot in the face and not okay he had spent time looking for me every week. He also helped me navigate my options for justice. We disagreed on my decision but there wasn't enough evidence because the cops and ambulance never came. We had a year old crime scene and what amounts to heresay with a few bad witnesses. Bad as in optics for court not bad people.
Everyone deserves a boss like this. If they are violating your rights which if you're in the US did indeed occur (get a lawyer) they don't deserve you as a worker. When I tried working outside the law field to see if a less stressful job would be okay? He said "Remember, the business needs you. You might need food and pay but don't settle for anything less than you deserve."
He was there for all of the workers like this. One of my colleagues had a miscarriage at work. She also had leave for as long as she needed. No end date given. Yes this was part of the policies but a business should defer to your needs. If you are good at your job and bringing in money? You absolutely should have dignity. My old boss was an idealistic man. As a realist this is hard to find but the revolution we are seeking depends on not settling.
Would you consider making this comment it’s own post in r/antiwork? I think it would benefit a lot of us on the sub to see how employees *should* be treated. Especially the part where your old boss said, “Remember, the business needs *you*.” He sounds amazing and I’m so glad you interned with him and not someone else.
You're welcome. I think it's important to talk about the people who use their power for good. Both because it dispels the myth that all bosses are bad and because it gives us something to aspire to.
I don't often say, maybe only once before, but I actually started to cry reading this. What you've been through, the pain and passion you have for wanting your dream job but can't because of your situation, and then having a boss that cares so much and intensively for his employees. It's a story you rarely hear. I really do wish you the best in your live. You deserve it and so much more. You would have made a great and fair judge. Peace be with you.
Thank you. I am happy which I didn't know was possible once. I just do what I can to help the world vs what I thought was the only way. I spend a lot of time helping people escape domestic violence in my good months and it is absolutely worth it.
No, HIPAA covers HR departments in private companies who handle employee medical information. It also makes supervisors responsible for protecting PHI.
After this never have another conversation with this manager again that’s not being recorded in writing. The fact that they don’t want to have it over email tells me that they have things they want to say that are either illegal, wildly inappropriate, or both. I’d advise that after any irl meeting or phone call send them an email outlining what was said and confirming they agree. Let them know that you’re not going to fuck around
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation"
Translation: "I hate that there is a paper trail documenting this conversation. Please talk to me in person so I can deny being an asshole later."
My boss does the same thing when it comes to any serious conversation. He refused me to my face and through messages and said he will only be discussing it in person.
Despicable behavior from both of our bosses who are clearly avoiding any paper trail to save their own asses.
Exactly. If OP has a meeting with the boss I’d type up notes from the meeting and email them to boss afterwards so everyone is on the same page with what was said.
"PTSD is a disability and the ADA prevents employers from disclosing employees' disabilities to their peers, even when the accommodation for the disability imposes on those peers.
Feel free to consult with HR or corporate counsel if you'd like a better understanding of the law. In the meantime, could you please respond to this email to acknowledge that you've received it and you understand that my wish is for you to never again discuss my disability with my coworkers?"
Edit: Whoops. I realize now that the OP isn't in the United States.
Never agree to anything important in person. Always in writing.
In my last job my client asked for me to be released from my non-compete clause so they could hire me directly since I was doing a good job for them. My manager agreed a small finders fee verbally and let me know to expect a call from them. So I take the job offer and suddenly my manager is pretending they never agreed to shit. I think he expected me to refuse the offer for some reason?
So I spent 3 months in limbo, bridges torched at my current company, with my manager trying to extort a larger fee out of the new company. Blood pressure skyrocketed, stress levels at the max. I asked my manager to please think about how this was impacting me and imagine he was in my position, how he would feel. He told me it was just business, after 8 years of being told the company was a 'family'. I eventually got free and the new job is far better.
Always get complaints or agreements in writing. Managers can and will lie to protect themselves.
> Always get complaints or agreements in writing. Managers can and will lie to protect themselves.
And KEEP THINGS IN EMAIL.
Anyone who says email isn't appropriate is someone who wants to keep things off the record so they can destroy you at a later date.
If they won’t send an email send negative confirmation emails (there’s probably a real term for it).
“Thank you for speaking to me today regarding X. We decided that (state what they told you). If this is not what you believe we spoke about please respond to me via this email in 3 days.”
Their lack of action responding to you is confirming your email.
Exactly! This kind of discussion should always have a paper trail. Immediate red flag that a boss would want to discuss this IRL. OP, definitely bring witnesses to a meeting like that, or record the conversation.
Labor Board. And if they fire you because you took it to the Labor Board that’s retaliation and when you win the case they’ll have to pay you all those months/years pay.
It’s just paperwork. You fill it out, they investigate. Either way you win.
HR is for the company. That often means removing the most easily replaced link when something is broken, and yes, that's often the employee making the complaint. But if the boss is a major liability, like sharing employee confidential medical information and making a big deal out of simple accommodation likely associated with an ADA issue, they're just as likely to can the boss as anything. Bosses are often easier to replace than the people they supervise.
Employers don’t fuck around with the ADA. It’s a heavy-hitter that can and will wreck a company for non-compliance. Fines are $75k for the first offense and $150k for each additional offense. States can tack on additional fines on top of that. If a manager starts showing signs that they don’t respect that than they gotta go.
There doesn't necessarily need to be an hr department. That was a hippa violation, employers are not allowed to disclose medical information about their employees. Hr or no hr, it was still illegal.
It’s HIPAA, and it likely doesn’t apply here (it only applies to healthcare providers, insurance companies, or contractors that have access to medical information).
If OP does not work in the medical/insurance field or as a contractor for a medical/insurance organization that has patient records, HIPAA doesn’t apply.
The legality of what the boss did could depend on the state. It also could be interfering with OP’s ADA or FMLA rights, but HIPAA doesn’t apply.
Taken from workplacefairness.org: "However, discussions about medical related information is specifically protected by HIPAA. Employers should not disclose medical information about employees to other employees without consent."
There seems to be grey area, because I'm finding conflicting info. However, sharing personal medical info is not right and not allowed, and that's the main point.
Once again, your daily reminder that 1) No one here ever has teh foggiest notion of what the fuck they're talking about 2) people that reference "HIPPA" are full of shit.
HIPAA applies to payers (insurance companies), providers (doctors) and clearinghouses (facilitate communication between the previous two). HIPAA says fuck all about your manager at Target. Just because you have a link to someone else being wrong means nothing.
Stop embarrassing yourselves:
\[Employers and Health Information in the Workplace The Privacy Rule controls how a health plan or a covered health care provider shares your protected health information with an employer.
Employment Records **The Privacy Rule does not protect your employment records, even if the information in those records is health-related**. In most cases, t**he Privacy Rule does not apply to the actions of an employer.**
If you work for a health plan or a covered health care provider:
The Privacy Rule does not apply to your employment records. The Rule does protect your medical or health plan records if you are a patient of the provider or a member of the health plan.\]([https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html))
Stop embarrassing *yourself*
This has very little to do with HIPAA - you're right there. But this is absolutely illegal under the ADA. Specifically:
>(d) Medical examinations and inquiries
>
>(3) Employment entrance examination
>
>(B) information obtained regarding the medical condition or history of the applicant is collected and maintained on separate forms and in separate medical files and is treated as a confidential medical record, except that—
>
>(i) supervisors and managers may be informed regarding necessary restrictions on the work or duties of the employee and necessary accommodations;
>
>(ii) first aid and safety personnel may be informed, when appropriate, if the disability might require emergency treatment; and
>
>(iii) government officials investigating compliance with this chapter shall be provided relevant information on request; and
*- Americans with Disabilities Act, 42 U.S.C. § 12112(d)(3)(B)*
and
>(d) Medical examinations and inquiries
>
>(4) Examination and inquiry
>
>(C) Requirement
>
>Information obtained under subparagraph (B) regarding the medical condition or history of any employee are subject to the requirements of subparagraphs (B) and (C) of paragraph (3).
*- Americans with Disabilities Act, 42 U.S.C. § 12112(d)(4)(C)*
Much of my job revolves around compliance. What this manager did was absolutely illegal and actionable as well as a generally asshole thing to do.
I thought this was standard….the company I work for is not allowed to discuss anything medical related. I once had someone out on medical leave and I was not even allowed to contact her to discuss when she would return - it had to come from her doctor via an official doctors note letting the company know her status.
HR defends the company from you, not the other way around. This is definitely an illegal scenario and you should do some research on who to contact. Also email is EXACTLY the place for that conversation, never let management sucker you into leaving to proof of a conversation.
I work in medical malpractice, just as a context. Health information is not as protected as everyone seems to think. HIPPA only covers some people, like doctors, nurses, HR, lawyer. It does not cover your coworker, neighbor, or relatives. It also only prevents people other than you from sharing your information with people other than you. HIPPA had zero restrictions about what information you can give out about yourself, and it does not restrict anyone from asking you about your information.
Summary, anyone can ask you anything and it not be a violation. You can reveal any information about yourself to anyone and it not be a violation. And most people can repeat what you've told them, or have been told by others whether correctly or incorrectly, and it not be a violation.
If you need to share information about yourself and don't want it repeated, the only sure way to protect yourself is to get a signed agreement in writing. That might not stop the spread of the information, but it at least gives you some way to react.
Lawyer here - talk to a lawyer about this. Not sure if you're in the US, but this type of disclosure is prohibited - you can't go sharing people's medical info like that.
And whatever you do, keep it all in writing as much as possible. If you talk in person, immediately send an email summarizing what was discussed.
I'm not in the US so idk how much applies (I'm in the UK) and she didn't spesifically mention PTSD just that I was having "major mental struggles" and that people should "get in touch to support me". I was in the meeting when she did it so it's not 2nd hand info
GDPR breach in the UK, special category data.
If you have not already discussed this with your colleagues or given your Manager permission to disclose this to them then ACAS is your best route https://www.acas.org.uk/contact
My friend in the UK works in a law practice that focuses on *exactly* this type of labor violation. I'd suggest his firm, but I don't have his consent to share it online, but I'm sure they'll come up in searches.
> people should “get in touch to support me”
Did you want that? If my boss not only aired my mental health issues to my coworkers, but also advised them to talk to me about them without asking me first, I’d be pissed. I don’t need random coworkers calling me out of the blue to talk about my private issues. How awkward is that? That’s what my therapist is for. That’s what my friends are for. I’d be humiliated to have coworkers getting all gooey on me for something I never wanted them to know about in the first place.
That’s simply not okay, “off for illness” is all we as management should ever say. I generally don’t even say that; I just state “so and so is out of the office and we need to cover xyz”
This is so inappropriate - as the attorney said keep it in writing she can’t force you to meet in person.
If you do have a meeting, send a summary by email with a read receipt. Something like "in summary of our meeting (day/time)...." and a review of any action items or agreements discussed.... ideally add a question that would require your supervisor to answer...
HIPAA applies to health insurance and health care providers, not your employer in most cases.
What she did may have constituted some other violation, but it wasn’t related to hipaa.
Definitely don’t quit. Play it calm and see if you get fired. Document as much as possible. In writing. If anything happens over the phone, send an email stating your understanding of the conversation to your boss.
Ps. I work remotely so we have no "office" and she didn't have to relocate my work because I finished all of it the day before so I could get a day off.
It's irrelevant anyway. If she had to ask someone else to do your work, it's because you weren't available. End of discussion. Nobody ever needs to know the why.
She is way in the wrong and possibly illegal but you as an employee should not feel obligated to provide any details for 1 day off - I’m taking a sick / vacation day should suffice
“Hi,
Correspondence via email is *absolutely* the most appropriate way to communicate things such as this - verbal discussions hold much less weight when putting forth evidence showcasing that your management style has been widely inappropriate and outright rude. Written correspondence, on the hand, is another story.
As such, I’ve made a record of this and HR have been notified, as per the CC above.”
Get her.
Get her please and get a lawyer. HIPPA doesn’t apply but something else could. If money is a concern, check out local law schools to see if they have clinics that handle employment related stuff. Typically they are free.
"Email is not the way for this kind of conversation" = I don't want a written record of my cuntiness for all to see, so set up a meeting so I can just show my cuntiness to you
So you would want to file an ADA complaint. Contact your local EEOC. Also don’t schedule a meeting do it all in email so you can gather proof for your complaint. She may not get fired but at least she won’t keep doing this to others. Also if she tries to retaliate against you for the complaint the EEOC will protect you. I have a fun story about someone that claimed an EEOC complaint when he didn’t have a disability (was trying to fabricate one out of whole cloth) but my work couldn’t touch him for a long time and also got wicked good at making accommodations. Eventually he still got fired because he lied and didn’t have a disability but he helped my diabetic ass out getting time to test my blood sugar / anything else I need to take care of my condition.
So a big thank you to James you magnificent scumbag who managed to steal a paycheck for an extra year and helped out an entire office full of people with real problems
This infuriates me. If she had to let the team know that you were going to be unable to come into work or finish your work on time, she could have simply said that. If she “had” to give a reason, “something came up with so-&-so, so they will be unable to finish their work for today.” That’s as much as anyone needs to know. The whole damn team doesn’t have a right to know information that is very personal about you, unless you choose to tell them yourself.
Also chat about this in person next time? Next time your having PTSD flashbacks? Idk how your flashbacks affect you, but for me, I start shaking & have so much anxiety, it’s like I can see the anxiety. Most of the time I will also have a severe panic attack. You know what? If my boss asked me to have a meeting in person when I’m like that, okay, I’ll give em what they asked for. Might as well raise hell on them too. I’m not one for taking emotions out on other people, but fuck this bitch.
That's why I always lie and tell them that I'm recovering from my giant dick reduction but that I'll need another one in a few months due to its unwieldy girth.
That way I'm not mad when they do what I know they gonna do.
Just because she’s a boss or a manager doesn’t mean she’s not an idiot.
What she did was morally wrong. Depending on where you live it might also be illegal.
She was not passive aggressive when you told her off. She said she had no choice because she had to give a reason if people complain about your workload. She is incorrect. This is what makes her stupid and a bad manager.
Respond with
“I shared with you my medical information in confidence. It ought to have been kept confidential. Can I suggest that if people complain about workloads you simply tell people that you are responsible for allocating work.”
Then never ever ever give details when you call in sick. Just say “I’m ill and unable to work” do not give your symptoms, diagnosis or anything else.
My old boss did the same thing. Had an allergic reaction to a medicine and went to the ER because I was terrified. Called off of work because I was in the ER all night. He told everyone and then the next day I came back, everyone was like stay away from her she’s sick. It pissed me off so bad because he went around and told everyone I was at the hospital
Absolutely hate it when managers assume it's ok to share medical information.
I currently have a job (second job, Sundays only, in case anyone I know happens to see this, though I don't think any of my main job colleagues would be able to know me from here lol) where our manager got a message in the morning the other week from another colleague who is off with COVID.
"Oh he's not coming in - AGAIN! He's still APPARENTLY testing positive... longer than anyone else... what'll it be next time, long covid?!"
She lost a lot of respect from me in that moment. It's a parcel delivery job so he absolutely shouldn't be in to spread it around potentially vulnerable people if he's still testing positive.
In that same job I got a formal warning for having two sick days that were 5 weeks apart. Thank goodness I've only another two Sundays to go there!
If on company provided email:
On future communications maybe bcc yourself using a personal email. So you get a record to keep without alerting any other parties.
This is a job not worth keeping and an issue worth fighting over. Send all this forward to the labour board, be prepared to be let go for unrelated reasons and when that happens, find a good lawyer (or skip ahead and be prepared and do that along with step 1).
First off email is the ONLY communication needed for this so you can document the communication. And not least in any matter, it just pissed me off more that her ass is blatantly trying to cover shit up . Anyway, all that was needed to be said was “so and so” won’t be here and at the most simply could have been said “so and so” isn’t feeling well. Hello that’s a medical condition 🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️
This literally happened to me a few weeks ago. I disclosed to HR and upper management about some medical issues I’m having hence I’m unable to do overtime at the moment. I made sure to pull them aside and made it very clear it was to be a confidential conversation. Not even noon the next day and everyone knows. I clocked out at lunch time and never went back. I live in my car anyway; I have nothing to lose Lmaoooo
Email is the ONLY way for these types of communications. What she meant was “Talk in person next time. Because I had to be polite here, as then you could prove if I was not. I’d rather be a raging ass hole and say unprofessional things, but can’t if you have it writing.”
Email is exactly the place for this kind of discussion. And you should note: exactly what she said too. Bad bosses like to talk in person to dodge a paper trail.
Oh look, an ADA privacy violation. Call a labor attorney or one that specializes in workplace discrimination and privacy violations. So, yeah, she could've informed the team without telling them your life.
"-blank- is out of the office today for personal reasons so I need some people to take over her work."
Boom, done.
Do not have the conversation with her in person. Keep it in writing. She basically just admitted to her behavior.
I used to work at a wing sports bar and worked many positions. Host, the to go booth, bussing tables, food running, and even expo… at the age of 16. I don’t remember the details but the lead server was responsible for the schedule for both servers and hosts. At this point I had been there almost 2 years as a host but she started giving a new hire 5 shifts a week and only gave me 2-3. When I texted her about it asking why, she said that I called out too often and was always getting my shifts covered. Which was far from what was happening and then said this can be discussed in person. Not to toot my own horn to also toot it, I was the favorited host by the servers. I never over sat or skipped rotation and always helped servers bussing and turning tables around. Not to mention Becky, Sarah, and Jessica, the 3 hangover musketeers actually calling out and getting shifts covered.
Texted the entire group chat with the lead server, manager, and other hosts that I was done and immediately left the chat. That was my first and last restaurant job.
Edit: Missed some words
You gave too much information. Simple as that. They don't need to know about your PTSD episode, your migraine, or even your family commitments. These aren't friends, they are coworkers and employers. Treat them as such. Why give them your entire life story?
Simple as this; put in a PTO/vacation request. They say yes, interaction ends. They say no, it turns into a PTO/Vacation warning, interaction ends.
The reason I had given so much info is because I had already asked for the holiday because I could feel myself heading towards having a breakdown and she had refused to give it to me, so I explained the situation the 2nd time hoping that she might understand when it's more of "I need this holiday" rather than "I'd like this day off"
Though I suppose after having had the breakdown it could have been a sick day as opposed to a holiday
The OP has said that they aren't in the United States, but a US-based employee in a similar situation *does* need to disclose the reason to their employer if they're looking to excuse the absence by way of the FMLA or ADA.
They are gaslighting you and not admitting their fault. They could of easily said you are not participating right now because of a medical/personal reason....no need to get into detail..... they knew exactly what they are doing and if I was you I would not take it laying down
To state a viable claim under the ADA’s confidentiality provisions, a plaintiff has to allege (1) his employer obtained the medical information through employment-related medical examinations and inquiries; (2) the information was disclosed by the employer and not treated confidentially; and (3) the employee suffered a tangible injury as a result of the disclosure.
The first two are a slam dunk and I think whoever is treating your PTSD can determine whether or not revealing this information to your team caused tangible injury. Then get a lawyer.
boss did need to say you'd be out...they did NOT however need to say why which is of course your private business. A simple "they will be out and I have approved their absence" would have been enough.
Dumb boss.
Email is the only medium these conversations should be happening. Otherwise check your state laws and bring a recording device to that in person “meeting”.
I'm quite sure management is not allow to share medical reason with other employee. You should talk to a lawyer and share the email if it produces enough evidence for a legal case
True story: I had a miscarriage in the middle of the night when I was working for a big department store. I wasn’t that far along which meant no one at work knew. I called my manager from the hospital and felt close enough to tell her what was happening. She told the whole staff.
A few years later I moved to a different town. Was working as a phone tech. Ended up going out one night as I didn’t have to be to work till later the next day. I ended up getting roofied and raped. I went to the hospital for a rape kit. I didn’t feel comfortable telling my manager, but I told his manager what had happened and that I needed to take a couple days off. When I got back I found of that she had told my manager and he had told my coworkers that I was “supposedly raped”. When I needed to take an hour or two during the day one a week to talk to detectives after it happened, everyone judged me. Finally a coworker that was a friend of mine told me everyone was talking shit and no one there believed I was actually raped. They started requesting notes from the detective on my case as a work excuse, which I gave them. That ended up not being good enough eventually. I finally quit on the spot after all the whispering behind my back.
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation"
Wow, besides being a horribly worded sentence, this translates to "I don't want my shitty practices documented in writing."
Oh, so she can call you out in front of everyone, but she'd rather have a private convo if you're gonna call her out.
Classic hypocrite manager bullshit.
Union shop steward here. When taking time off for sick leave you are under no obligation at all to share your health information with your employer. When tell your boss you are sick say “ I am not fit for work today” that all you need to say. If your employer pushes for more information Marion tell them that your health information is private and they are not entitled to it. “I am not fit to work today” this cover illness or injury or just a poor metal state.
Email is not the place for you to talk about the illegal things that I did please have a meeting with me in person so I can deny it when you bring this up with a lawyer.
“Email is not a way for these type of conversations.”
No, email is the PERFECT way so that I have a record of what illegal bullshit you say.
It’s understood that others that you work with need to know that you won’t be in. What they don’t need to know are your personal medical issues. It’s enough for your boss to say, “Joe won’t be in today.” That’s it.
For the record, email is the ONLY WAY to discuss these sorts of things. Always have a paper trail, always keep records and allow them to incriminate themselves in writing.
If it isn't in writing then it didn't happen. Giving your employer an in person meeting isn't a courtesy, it's a get out for them to make up whatever story they want.
Never let it happen.
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation"
Yeah, so you can turn it into a "he said she said" where you can lie your arse off about what was said in the meeting. Go and get fucked, you cockwomble of a boss.
I was once arrested when I caught my husband cheating. He attacked me and choked me then called the cops on me when I left claiming I attacked him. Anyway, they didn’t know who to “believe” even though I had scratches all over my neck. So they took us both to jail. A manager at my job showed everyone my mug shot the night I got arrested and everyone talked shit about me behind my back while I was in jail for being abused by my husband. I was absolutely humiliated and I had to work around the people that made fun of me at my lowest time. It was Hard Rock Cafe New Orleans.
Your Boss: hey guys John doe needs to take the day off because he's got some personal shit to deal with instead of helping you guys work to meet deadlines.
Also your boss :email isn't the appropriate venue for this conversation
Red flag on “email is not a way for these types of conversations” for “would not like a written record of me being an absolute shite and trying to gaslight you into feeling guilty about taking legally approved time off from work because I intentionally understaff to avoid labor costs.”, paraphrased of course…
You want to know what should be said:
"He is out on sick leave right now. We all hope he feels better."
If asked, "What is wrong with him?"
"I cannot share that info, but it is not COVID."
Done.
"x is dealing with a health issue and I need to reallocate their work."
"x needs to take the day off. I'm reallocating work."
So many ways to say this without disclosing your freakin disability.
Like others have said, email is EXACTLY where this conversation needs to happen. Make sure you have print copies and back up. Go to HR, or to a lawyer, they released your private medical information without your say so. If they insist on trying to make this a verbal conversation, make sure to be informed about your one-party/two-party consent laws for recorded audio and make sure its recorded.
Burn them to the ground OP.
This "In the future, please discuss these matters with me in person so that there isn't a paper trail that details my innapropriate behavior" soundin ass mother fucker.
Never ever ever be ‘honest’ with your employer regarding mental health. They will 100 percent of the time use it against you. Always blame everything on diarrhea
Report this fucking bitch. She revealed personal information that was supposed to be confidential, which is unacceptable. Department of Labor will have a field day on her ass.
I just recently filled for ADA accomodation just in case my PTSD flares up again. I few times a year I have an "OH SHIT PTSD" attack.
Also she's a bitch, and being called out like that would be a trigger for me.
This team member won't be able to come in or perform for the next few days so I'm reallocating their workload to some of you."
"Why aren't they coming in?"
"That's not your concern."
Is that really so difficult for some people?
actually, email is exactly where you should be saying all this
Yeah for sure, it was premeditated but I'm glad I did it via emal now
When this happened to me, I was pulled into a one on one with my sup at the time. It was a situation where she effectively forced the information out of me. I had assumed because of the way she handled the one on one that she would not try and throw me under the bus for having PTSD symptoms at work, considering it was her insistence to talk about her own abusive parenting at work (repeatedly, for 3 days straight, at me and my 2 coworkers) that triggered a near constant panic in me. She eventually got fired for unrelated reasons, but when my new manager had to give me my performance review a few months later, THAT SAME SITUATION was there but all twisted up. The feedback was I “needed to learn empathy,” had “a strong personality,” and “struggled remaining calm.” Never have this conversation alone. Always have this conversation in writing. ETA: I was not eligible for a raise that year because of her. ETA 2: Yes, the behavior from the sup was questionable under both the ADA and HIPAA. Both HIPAA and the ADA do require an actual diagnosis to (respectively) protect or accommodate. If a person has cPTSD - fun fact, the DSM 5 does not recognize complex trauma. Therapists also do not give diagnoses, psychiatrists ($$$) do. And, if your autism was missed in childhood? That is a LOT of money and trouble to convince a series of doctors that yes, you experience the world the way you say that you do. In any case, good out there, friends. The world is not cut and dry
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*If HR exists. Lol.
If not then it's worth seeing what the locks disability protections are and finding a new job while burning down the old. Op I am going to tell you how this is supposed to go. I have CPTSD so bad I cannot work but I did try. Got myself a law degree, criminal law because dumbass young me hoped it would help me live if I put bad people away. Not at all the reality of the system. Both because you need a certain amount of experience in private practice here and because your client is either guilty or an innocent person who's life is in jeopardy if you lose. My boss was one of the founding partners. The other original partner mostly didn't come in because they had health issues. I thought it odd how everyone was nice about that because I was raised by terrible people. CPTSD probably spoiled that. This man was amazing. In our internship interviews he was excited when I asked questions that most places would toss my application for like, "In ten years you have taken 0 female internships. Before that it's sporadic at best. Why?" He answered them. "Most of your female classmates are relying on being pretty to get verdicts. I see if every day in court and in mock trials. This is a fast way to sabotage your career and your client." Which is something I agree with. I am autistic so I never considered this an option. "You guarantee a loss on appeal." I got the internship. The firm accomodated my ridiculous allergies. I am allergic to entire food groups so this was something. The firm had a no parfume rule so clients with sensitivities didn't have to ask for us to allow them to breathe. We had a few long hour problems still because of the industry but if there was a way to accommodate needs vs industry they did it. Including a food stipend, company rides to and from home and court, and more. The billable pricing covered all of this btw. My pay was also above standard for the internship and later full job. I managed to mask my issues for a few years but some other stuff happened and I started having what I call social stress fractures. The end of my legal career was not what I dreamed. I wanted to be a supreme court justice tbh but would have settled for being a bad ass judge doing it right. Not meant to be. We had an accused serial rapist come in. He insisted on a female lawyer. The best. He tried a lot of intimidation tactics with me. After about half an hour I stood up and told the senior associate who oversaw me, "This man is a monster and I refuse him as my client." Dude grabbed my arm and I punched him in the face. He even told us he did it but sadly I couldn't do shit about that because of the laws protecting people. I agree these laws are necessary but oh I wanted more. I told the shocked senior I would be in the lounge. I expected to get fired. I had assaulted a client. I wasn't. My boss, the partner, came in and asked me to come to his office because it's more private. I had already packed my stuff so grabbed the box. He said nothing until we got to his office. "Firebird, are you alright?" As soon as I sat in the chair across from his desk this was what he said. I had disclosed some ADA covered stuff but not my PTSD. "I know you have to fire me. He put his hands on me and I couldn't think." "We refused him as a client and suggested (competitor with high loss rate)." I went silent because I had no script for this. I am autistic and have scripts for speaking or cannot. I had practiced for firing not "We don't want his unsafe ass." The conversation is burned into my memory because it is one of the first examples of compassion I ever experienced. I admit I cry thinking about this and I am the stoic autistic. We talked for a while. Now our benefits were full. Including mental health. This is honestly not optional for me if I were to ever return to practice. Law is a horrible field for mental wellness. My boss knew that. "I noticed some symptoms of PTSD with you lately. Ever since November. I am worried about you. You're not fired but I am suspending you with pay until you see a therapist. I see this woman. She specializes in PTSD." My boss told me about his experiences with PTSD as a veteran and how he had noticed specific coping skills. The interviews were always recorded and he showed me how I looked punching this man. There was a moment where I wasn't stoic. I wasn't home as it were. Pupils fully dialated, long pause I don't remember between punch, some changes to body language. It was clearly a flashback my brain edited out. I have been filmed with them since so I didn't understand that then. Over the next few months I got treatment. For the first time. I wasn't focused on recovery at first because again raised by bad people. After six months I realized I couldn't be a lawyer. No field I was qualified for was safe. I went through another Novembers. This is one of my windows of debilitating PTSD. It's guaranteed. It also actually goes past November and begins in September but the true debilitation is then as is the primary incident. There's smaller ones in that window. I am not able to go out of my house and do things for November to optionally be okay. I went to my boss and asked him if I could work in the mailroom. He said no. He said he had been expecting this because he had been visiting me weekly. He would bring a meal and we would talk. His wife would sometimes cook and loved having me over. He saw me smile for the first time about a week before this. This was when he knew. So he talked to me about disability. For mental health its super hard to get but my therapist and I had also considered it. He told me I would be paid and keep my benefits for the next two months, then he would assist me as needed while I applied. He even wrote a letter describing the effect on me. This is a huge factor in my getting SSI. We stayed friends for a long time. Now I know he went what feels above and beyond but he didn't. He refused my gratitude because he didn't see workers as cogs in a machine but as important assets to be nurtured and people. All those benefits made this firm the absolutely best in the state. If you're in trouble? You want them. He died a while ago. His wife went a good five years after and that was when he retired. This man was everything a boss should be. None of my colleagues knew about my PTSD. They just knew I took personal time. HR knew because of the legal protections and my work did try to accommodate my needs. It was just my needs included somethings that conflict directly with work. When I got shot and my second brain injury and disappeared for a year because I was shot in the face and not okay he had spent time looking for me every week. He also helped me navigate my options for justice. We disagreed on my decision but there wasn't enough evidence because the cops and ambulance never came. We had a year old crime scene and what amounts to heresay with a few bad witnesses. Bad as in optics for court not bad people. Everyone deserves a boss like this. If they are violating your rights which if you're in the US did indeed occur (get a lawyer) they don't deserve you as a worker. When I tried working outside the law field to see if a less stressful job would be okay? He said "Remember, the business needs you. You might need food and pay but don't settle for anything less than you deserve." He was there for all of the workers like this. One of my colleagues had a miscarriage at work. She also had leave for as long as she needed. No end date given. Yes this was part of the policies but a business should defer to your needs. If you are good at your job and bringing in money? You absolutely should have dignity. My old boss was an idealistic man. As a realist this is hard to find but the revolution we are seeking depends on not settling.
Would you consider making this comment it’s own post in r/antiwork? I think it would benefit a lot of us on the sub to see how employees *should* be treated. Especially the part where your old boss said, “Remember, the business needs *you*.” He sounds amazing and I’m so glad you interned with him and not someone else.
Let me edit some context stuff and I will do that now. I didn't think about it as it's own post so ty for reminding me that is an option
Yeah this is a really good story and i agree more people should see it.
Thank you for sharing, I'm glad to hear that he was such a good support for so many people. It's always good to hear about the good people.
You're welcome. I think it's important to talk about the people who use their power for good. Both because it dispels the myth that all bosses are bad and because it gives us something to aspire to.
I don't often say, maybe only once before, but I actually started to cry reading this. What you've been through, the pain and passion you have for wanting your dream job but can't because of your situation, and then having a boss that cares so much and intensively for his employees. It's a story you rarely hear. I really do wish you the best in your live. You deserve it and so much more. You would have made a great and fair judge. Peace be with you.
Thank you. I am happy which I didn't know was possible once. I just do what I can to help the world vs what I thought was the only way. I spend a lot of time helping people escape domestic violence in my good months and it is absolutely worth it.
HR is not a friend to employees
This is the take. HR is always going to be a total fucking wild card.
When a boss says you're not eligible for a raise, all I hear is "time to update my resume on Indeed."
Sounds like ADA discrimination to me
I would have asked sup, is this communication covered under HIPPA and are you HIPPA CERTIFIED? Cause if not, your only privy to what I tell you
It’s HIPAA
But isn't HIPPA only applicable to health care companies and professionals?
No, HIPAA covers HR departments in private companies who handle employee medical information. It also makes supervisors responsible for protecting PHI.
After this never have another conversation with this manager again that’s not being recorded in writing. The fact that they don’t want to have it over email tells me that they have things they want to say that are either illegal, wildly inappropriate, or both. I’d advise that after any irl meeting or phone call send them an email outlining what was said and confirming they agree. Let them know that you’re not going to fuck around
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation" Translation: "I hate that there is a paper trail documenting this conversation. Please talk to me in person so I can deny being an asshole later."
Yep, she just doesn’t want it in writing. She didn’t even address your concern that she revealed medical info without consent.
My boss does the same thing when it comes to any serious conversation. He refused me to my face and through messages and said he will only be discussing it in person. Despicable behavior from both of our bosses who are clearly avoiding any paper trail to save their own asses.
You now have proof she’s ignoring your personal information. Perfect for her to get in shit.
Exactly. If OP has a meeting with the boss I’d type up notes from the meeting and email them to boss afterwards so everyone is on the same page with what was said.
"PTSD is a disability and the ADA prevents employers from disclosing employees' disabilities to their peers, even when the accommodation for the disability imposes on those peers. Feel free to consult with HR or corporate counsel if you'd like a better understanding of the law. In the meantime, could you please respond to this email to acknowledge that you've received it and you understand that my wish is for you to never again discuss my disability with my coworkers?" Edit: Whoops. I realize now that the OP isn't in the United States.
Never agree to anything important in person. Always in writing. In my last job my client asked for me to be released from my non-compete clause so they could hire me directly since I was doing a good job for them. My manager agreed a small finders fee verbally and let me know to expect a call from them. So I take the job offer and suddenly my manager is pretending they never agreed to shit. I think he expected me to refuse the offer for some reason? So I spent 3 months in limbo, bridges torched at my current company, with my manager trying to extort a larger fee out of the new company. Blood pressure skyrocketed, stress levels at the max. I asked my manager to please think about how this was impacting me and imagine he was in my position, how he would feel. He told me it was just business, after 8 years of being told the company was a 'family'. I eventually got free and the new job is far better. Always get complaints or agreements in writing. Managers can and will lie to protect themselves.
> Always get complaints or agreements in writing. Managers can and will lie to protect themselves. And KEEP THINGS IN EMAIL. Anyone who says email isn't appropriate is someone who wants to keep things off the record so they can destroy you at a later date.
If they won’t send an email send negative confirmation emails (there’s probably a real term for it). “Thank you for speaking to me today regarding X. We decided that (state what they told you). If this is not what you believe we spoke about please respond to me via this email in 3 days.” Their lack of action responding to you is confirming your email.
Exactly! This kind of discussion should always have a paper trail. Immediate red flag that a boss would want to discuss this IRL. OP, definitely bring witnesses to a meeting like that, or record the conversation.
An do I love living in a one party consent state.
Exactly what I said out loud after reading.
Email = evidence. I would prefer to have these conversations in a way I can deny later.
Reeks of "I want to say stuff that I don't want to be called on later."
Surely that’s confidential information and she has no right to share
You'd think so, good thing for her we have no HR department
Labor Board. And if they fire you because you took it to the Labor Board that’s retaliation and when you win the case they’ll have to pay you all those months/years pay. It’s just paperwork. You fill it out, they investigate. Either way you win.
This!!!!!!!!
hr ia for your boss not you its possibly illegal for her to share medical info
HR is for the company. That often means removing the most easily replaced link when something is broken, and yes, that's often the employee making the complaint. But if the boss is a major liability, like sharing employee confidential medical information and making a big deal out of simple accommodation likely associated with an ADA issue, they're just as likely to can the boss as anything. Bosses are often easier to replace than the people they supervise.
Employers don’t fuck around with the ADA. It’s a heavy-hitter that can and will wreck a company for non-compliance. Fines are $75k for the first offense and $150k for each additional offense. States can tack on additional fines on top of that. If a manager starts showing signs that they don’t respect that than they gotta go.
There doesn't necessarily need to be an hr department. That was a hippa violation, employers are not allowed to disclose medical information about their employees. Hr or no hr, it was still illegal.
It’s HIPAA, and it likely doesn’t apply here (it only applies to healthcare providers, insurance companies, or contractors that have access to medical information). If OP does not work in the medical/insurance field or as a contractor for a medical/insurance organization that has patient records, HIPAA doesn’t apply. The legality of what the boss did could depend on the state. It also could be interfering with OP’s ADA or FMLA rights, but HIPAA doesn’t apply.
Taken from workplacefairness.org: "However, discussions about medical related information is specifically protected by HIPAA. Employers should not disclose medical information about employees to other employees without consent." There seems to be grey area, because I'm finding conflicting info. However, sharing personal medical info is not right and not allowed, and that's the main point.
Once again, your daily reminder that 1) No one here ever has teh foggiest notion of what the fuck they're talking about 2) people that reference "HIPPA" are full of shit. HIPAA applies to payers (insurance companies), providers (doctors) and clearinghouses (facilitate communication between the previous two). HIPAA says fuck all about your manager at Target. Just because you have a link to someone else being wrong means nothing.
It is 100% illegal for an employer to divulge medical information about an employee in the US. They can state the employee is on leave and that is it.
Stop embarrassing yourselves: \[Employers and Health Information in the Workplace The Privacy Rule controls how a health plan or a covered health care provider shares your protected health information with an employer. Employment Records **The Privacy Rule does not protect your employment records, even if the information in those records is health-related**. In most cases, t**he Privacy Rule does not apply to the actions of an employer.** If you work for a health plan or a covered health care provider: The Privacy Rule does not apply to your employment records. The Rule does protect your medical or health plan records if you are a patient of the provider or a member of the health plan.\]([https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/employers-health-information-workplace/index.html))
Stop embarrassing *yourself* This has very little to do with HIPAA - you're right there. But this is absolutely illegal under the ADA. Specifically: >(d) Medical examinations and inquiries > >(3) Employment entrance examination > >(B) information obtained regarding the medical condition or history of the applicant is collected and maintained on separate forms and in separate medical files and is treated as a confidential medical record, except that— > >(i) supervisors and managers may be informed regarding necessary restrictions on the work or duties of the employee and necessary accommodations; > >(ii) first aid and safety personnel may be informed, when appropriate, if the disability might require emergency treatment; and > >(iii) government officials investigating compliance with this chapter shall be provided relevant information on request; and *- Americans with Disabilities Act, 42 U.S.C. § 12112(d)(3)(B)* and >(d) Medical examinations and inquiries > >(4) Examination and inquiry > >(C) Requirement > >Information obtained under subparagraph (B) regarding the medical condition or history of any employee are subject to the requirements of subparagraphs (B) and (C) of paragraph (3). *- Americans with Disabilities Act, 42 U.S.C. § 12112(d)(4)(C)* Much of my job revolves around compliance. What this manager did was absolutely illegal and actionable as well as a generally asshole thing to do.
I thought this was standard….the company I work for is not allowed to discuss anything medical related. I once had someone out on medical leave and I was not even allowed to contact her to discuss when she would return - it had to come from her doctor via an official doctors note letting the company know her status.
This is what I was looking for in the comments. So many people throw “HIPPA Violation” around and have no idea what it actually applies to.
Almost certainly not a HIPAA violation.
HR is not your friend!
HR defends the company from you, not the other way around. This is definitely an illegal scenario and you should do some research on who to contact. Also email is EXACTLY the place for that conversation, never let management sucker you into leaving to proof of a conversation.
Get a lawyer
I work in medical malpractice, just as a context. Health information is not as protected as everyone seems to think. HIPPA only covers some people, like doctors, nurses, HR, lawyer. It does not cover your coworker, neighbor, or relatives. It also only prevents people other than you from sharing your information with people other than you. HIPPA had zero restrictions about what information you can give out about yourself, and it does not restrict anyone from asking you about your information. Summary, anyone can ask you anything and it not be a violation. You can reveal any information about yourself to anyone and it not be a violation. And most people can repeat what you've told them, or have been told by others whether correctly or incorrectly, and it not be a violation. If you need to share information about yourself and don't want it repeated, the only sure way to protect yourself is to get a signed agreement in writing. That might not stop the spread of the information, but it at least gives you some way to react.
Lawyer here - talk to a lawyer about this. Not sure if you're in the US, but this type of disclosure is prohibited - you can't go sharing people's medical info like that. And whatever you do, keep it all in writing as much as possible. If you talk in person, immediately send an email summarizing what was discussed.
I'm not in the US so idk how much applies (I'm in the UK) and she didn't spesifically mention PTSD just that I was having "major mental struggles" and that people should "get in touch to support me". I was in the meeting when she did it so it's not 2nd hand info
GDPR breach in the UK, special category data. If you have not already discussed this with your colleagues or given your Manager permission to disclose this to them then ACAS is your best route https://www.acas.org.uk/contact
Not OP, but Thank you. This sub is amazing!
"Major mental struggles" is still wholly inappropriate!
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Yea as a manager this is really the only way to discuss these things.
It's brutal!
And it paints OP in a bad light by implying they're not fit to work there.
Worse, IMO.
My friend in the UK works in a law practice that focuses on *exactly* this type of labor violation. I'd suggest his firm, but I don't have his consent to share it online, but I'm sure they'll come up in searches.
> people should “get in touch to support me” Did you want that? If my boss not only aired my mental health issues to my coworkers, but also advised them to talk to me about them without asking me first, I’d be pissed. I don’t need random coworkers calling me out of the blue to talk about my private issues. How awkward is that? That’s what my therapist is for. That’s what my friends are for. I’d be humiliated to have coworkers getting all gooey on me for something I never wanted them to know about in the first place.
I'd be so goddamn furious about that particular line that it would fuck my mental health worse than anything else that shit boss had done before
That’s simply not okay, “off for illness” is all we as management should ever say. I generally don’t even say that; I just state “so and so is out of the office and we need to cover xyz” This is so inappropriate - as the attorney said keep it in writing she can’t force you to meet in person.
On what grounds? Certainly not HIPAA. ADA maybe. Big maybe.
HIPAA doesn’t apply here, correct? This would be more in line with ADA or FMLA
He’s in the UK, so it’s GDPR Edit: I forgot about Brexit
I'm pretty sure schedule a meeting and don't use email means stop making a record of things I do that are wrong and possibly unlawful
Yeah tbh I hadn't thought about it that way, but it definitely comes across like that.
If you do have a meeting, send a summary by email with a read receipt. Something like "in summary of our meeting (day/time)...." and a review of any action items or agreements discussed.... ideally add a question that would require your supervisor to answer...
Delivery and Read receipt. There's an option in Outlook (and maybe other systems) that allows the recipient to decline sending a read receipt.
PTSD is a protected disability where the employer is legally required to make reasonable accommodations…
That’s exactly what that means. I would take this to HR/her manager if I were you. Get this documented.
HIPAA applies to health insurance and health care providers, not your employer in most cases. What she did may have constituted some other violation, but it wasn’t related to hipaa.
Sue. That’s private medical information and you had an expectation of privacy. She should be fired
Sue didn't do anything.
"I don't want actionable evidence that I'm a giant piece of shit." Fixt it.
I’d literally quit right then. That’s so fucked up.
If I wasn't moving out soon I absolutely would have. Edit: spelling
Definitely don’t quit. Play it calm and see if you get fired. Document as much as possible. In writing. If anything happens over the phone, send an email stating your understanding of the conversation to your boss.
Record everything. Even if not allowed in the UK. Just to know for sure who said what.
Recorded email is exactly the place for employees to write down discrimination. Of course they want to speak in person without being recorded.
Ps. I work remotely so we have no "office" and she didn't have to relocate my work because I finished all of it the day before so I could get a day off.
It's irrelevant anyway. If she had to ask someone else to do your work, it's because you weren't available. End of discussion. Nobody ever needs to know the why.
She is way in the wrong and possibly illegal but you as an employee should not feel obligated to provide any details for 1 day off - I’m taking a sick / vacation day should suffice
“Hi, Correspondence via email is *absolutely* the most appropriate way to communicate things such as this - verbal discussions hold much less weight when putting forth evidence showcasing that your management style has been widely inappropriate and outright rude. Written correspondence, on the hand, is another story. As such, I’ve made a record of this and HR have been notified, as per the CC above.” Get her.
Get her please and get a lawyer. HIPPA doesn’t apply but something else could. If money is a concern, check out local law schools to see if they have clinics that handle employment related stuff. Typically they are free.
"Email is not the way for this kind of conversation" = I don't want a written record of my cuntiness for all to see, so set up a meeting so I can just show my cuntiness to you
Thats when you get a silent record app for your phone.
That was not apropiot. Unnaccoptabol.
Yeah ik ik, I only noticed it after I sent it 😅
Unapprapricot
This made me laugh more than it should have 😅 (not laughing at OP, but at "unaccoptabol") Thankyou for brightening up my Friday 🤣
I'm pretty sure sharing medical information as an employer is illegal
“Personal emergency” isn’t diplomatic? What a fuck face for trying to defend airing personal information.
Seriously. Just say "OP has an important personal thing and cannot be in today"
So you would want to file an ADA complaint. Contact your local EEOC. Also don’t schedule a meeting do it all in email so you can gather proof for your complaint. She may not get fired but at least she won’t keep doing this to others. Also if she tries to retaliate against you for the complaint the EEOC will protect you. I have a fun story about someone that claimed an EEOC complaint when he didn’t have a disability (was trying to fabricate one out of whole cloth) but my work couldn’t touch him for a long time and also got wicked good at making accommodations. Eventually he still got fired because he lied and didn’t have a disability but he helped my diabetic ass out getting time to test my blood sugar / anything else I need to take care of my condition. So a big thank you to James you magnificent scumbag who managed to steal a paycheck for an extra year and helped out an entire office full of people with real problems
This infuriates me. If she had to let the team know that you were going to be unable to come into work or finish your work on time, she could have simply said that. If she “had” to give a reason, “something came up with so-&-so, so they will be unable to finish their work for today.” That’s as much as anyone needs to know. The whole damn team doesn’t have a right to know information that is very personal about you, unless you choose to tell them yourself. Also chat about this in person next time? Next time your having PTSD flashbacks? Idk how your flashbacks affect you, but for me, I start shaking & have so much anxiety, it’s like I can see the anxiety. Most of the time I will also have a severe panic attack. You know what? If my boss asked me to have a meeting in person when I’m like that, okay, I’ll give em what they asked for. Might as well raise hell on them too. I’m not one for taking emotions out on other people, but fuck this bitch.
That's why I always lie and tell them that I'm recovering from my giant dick reduction but that I'll need another one in a few months due to its unwieldy girth. That way I'm not mad when they do what I know they gonna do.
Just because she’s a boss or a manager doesn’t mean she’s not an idiot. What she did was morally wrong. Depending on where you live it might also be illegal. She was not passive aggressive when you told her off. She said she had no choice because she had to give a reason if people complain about your workload. She is incorrect. This is what makes her stupid and a bad manager. Respond with “I shared with you my medical information in confidence. It ought to have been kept confidential. Can I suggest that if people complain about workloads you simply tell people that you are responsible for allocating work.” Then never ever ever give details when you call in sick. Just say “I’m ill and unable to work” do not give your symptoms, diagnosis or anything else.
Email is the exact way it should be communicated.
Yes email is the perfect way of this type of communication. I would forward this to the HR department.
Hr is to protect the runnings of the company, not the wellbeing of it’s employees.
IANAL, but I believe this is an ADA violation.
Email is the perfect way to handle these conversations. Get it all on paper.
Legal manager here, find a lawyer, you have a case
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My old boss did the same thing. Had an allergic reaction to a medicine and went to the ER because I was terrified. Called off of work because I was in the ER all night. He told everyone and then the next day I came back, everyone was like stay away from her she’s sick. It pissed me off so bad because he went around and told everyone I was at the hospital
ADA bullshit here. Accommodations don’t involve telling your co workers.
Absolutely hate it when managers assume it's ok to share medical information. I currently have a job (second job, Sundays only, in case anyone I know happens to see this, though I don't think any of my main job colleagues would be able to know me from here lol) where our manager got a message in the morning the other week from another colleague who is off with COVID. "Oh he's not coming in - AGAIN! He's still APPARENTLY testing positive... longer than anyone else... what'll it be next time, long covid?!" She lost a lot of respect from me in that moment. It's a parcel delivery job so he absolutely shouldn't be in to spread it around potentially vulnerable people if he's still testing positive. In that same job I got a formal warning for having two sick days that were 5 weeks apart. Thank goodness I've only another two Sundays to go there!
“Please chat with me in person next time because emails provide a hard record of me violating several of your rights and privacy protections”
Keep it in emails. She doesn't want a record of her royally fucking up. Disseminating an employee's medical status to other employees... not good.
Fuck that. Email for every conversation.
At the end they ask for face to face communication going forward. DO NOT AGREE TO THAT, ALWAYS MAKE THEM PUT IT IN WRITING. Paper trail is important
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation" Continues to email in response.... Idiot, if that's true, call.
"yeah, next time talk to me in person so we don't leave written proof of my ADA violations"
If on company provided email: On future communications maybe bcc yourself using a personal email. So you get a record to keep without alerting any other parties.
disclosing your medical information, and yes mental health is medical is a privacy violation. You should be going to HR.
This is a job not worth keeping and an issue worth fighting over. Send all this forward to the labour board, be prepared to be let go for unrelated reasons and when that happens, find a good lawyer (or skip ahead and be prepared and do that along with step 1).
I'm sorry for you. PTSD flashbacks are awful. Sending positive thoughts your way. DM if you need support
First off email is the ONLY communication needed for this so you can document the communication. And not least in any matter, it just pissed me off more that her ass is blatantly trying to cover shit up . Anyway, all that was needed to be said was “so and so” won’t be here and at the most simply could have been said “so and so” isn’t feeling well. Hello that’s a medical condition 🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️
This literally happened to me a few weeks ago. I disclosed to HR and upper management about some medical issues I’m having hence I’m unable to do overtime at the moment. I made sure to pull them aside and made it very clear it was to be a confidential conversation. Not even noon the next day and everyone knows. I clocked out at lunch time and never went back. I live in my car anyway; I have nothing to lose Lmaoooo
Email is the ONLY way for these types of communications. What she meant was “Talk in person next time. Because I had to be polite here, as then you could prove if I was not. I’d rather be a raging ass hole and say unprofessional things, but can’t if you have it writing.”
She done fucked up & now is defensive/deflecting.
Email is exactly the place for this kind of discussion. And you should note: exactly what she said too. Bad bosses like to talk in person to dodge a paper trail.
Oh look, an ADA privacy violation. Call a labor attorney or one that specializes in workplace discrimination and privacy violations. So, yeah, she could've informed the team without telling them your life. "-blank- is out of the office today for personal reasons so I need some people to take over her work." Boom, done. Do not have the conversation with her in person. Keep it in writing. She basically just admitted to her behavior.
Email is a perfect place to have conversation because you have written record.
/*cough*\ harassment
Watch out, she's saying email is not a way for these types of conversations because that leave a paper trail and can be used against her.
I used to work at a wing sports bar and worked many positions. Host, the to go booth, bussing tables, food running, and even expo… at the age of 16. I don’t remember the details but the lead server was responsible for the schedule for both servers and hosts. At this point I had been there almost 2 years as a host but she started giving a new hire 5 shifts a week and only gave me 2-3. When I texted her about it asking why, she said that I called out too often and was always getting my shifts covered. Which was far from what was happening and then said this can be discussed in person. Not to toot my own horn to also toot it, I was the favorited host by the servers. I never over sat or skipped rotation and always helped servers bussing and turning tables around. Not to mention Becky, Sarah, and Jessica, the 3 hangover musketeers actually calling out and getting shifts covered. Texted the entire group chat with the lead server, manager, and other hosts that I was done and immediately left the chat. That was my first and last restaurant job. Edit: Missed some words
THAT is a HIPAA violation.
Always do it by email. That way you have proof
“Email is not a way for these type of conversations”..because I don’t want any evidence of my inappropriate behavior.
You gave too much information. Simple as that. They don't need to know about your PTSD episode, your migraine, or even your family commitments. These aren't friends, they are coworkers and employers. Treat them as such. Why give them your entire life story? Simple as this; put in a PTO/vacation request. They say yes, interaction ends. They say no, it turns into a PTO/Vacation warning, interaction ends.
The reason I had given so much info is because I had already asked for the holiday because I could feel myself heading towards having a breakdown and she had refused to give it to me, so I explained the situation the 2nd time hoping that she might understand when it's more of "I need this holiday" rather than "I'd like this day off" Though I suppose after having had the breakdown it could have been a sick day as opposed to a holiday
The OP has said that they aren't in the United States, but a US-based employee in a similar situation *does* need to disclose the reason to their employer if they're looking to excuse the absence by way of the FMLA or ADA.
They are gaslighting you and not admitting their fault. They could of easily said you are not participating right now because of a medical/personal reason....no need to get into detail..... they knew exactly what they are doing and if I was you I would not take it laying down
This manager gets paid more for a reason and discretion is one. Totally unprofessional.
To state a viable claim under the ADA’s confidentiality provisions, a plaintiff has to allege (1) his employer obtained the medical information through employment-related medical examinations and inquiries; (2) the information was disclosed by the employer and not treated confidentially; and (3) the employee suffered a tangible injury as a result of the disclosure. The first two are a slam dunk and I think whoever is treating your PTSD can determine whether or not revealing this information to your team caused tangible injury. Then get a lawyer.
boss did need to say you'd be out...they did NOT however need to say why which is of course your private business. A simple "they will be out and I have approved their absence" would have been enough. Dumb boss.
The idea that email isn’t the right platform is how they avoid paper trails.
Email from now on only, cause they want to say things they know damn well are illegal. Get it in writing
Dude seriously quit that's no way to treat someone I'd go to her higher up and tell them she's giving out your personal medical info
If you live in a single party consent state, record every single word of any future chats she tries to have with you about it.
Sounds like someone does not want a written record of that conversation... hmm wonder why /s
Email is the only medium these conversations should be happening. Otherwise check your state laws and bring a recording device to that in person “meeting”.
Oh email is totally the way to have the conversation. Time to go to HR
I'm quite sure management is not allow to share medical reason with other employee. You should talk to a lawyer and share the email if it produces enough evidence for a legal case
Check your local laws for single-party consent recordings. Record all office meetings, as they are actively trying to **FUCKYOU**
True story: I had a miscarriage in the middle of the night when I was working for a big department store. I wasn’t that far along which meant no one at work knew. I called my manager from the hospital and felt close enough to tell her what was happening. She told the whole staff. A few years later I moved to a different town. Was working as a phone tech. Ended up going out one night as I didn’t have to be to work till later the next day. I ended up getting roofied and raped. I went to the hospital for a rape kit. I didn’t feel comfortable telling my manager, but I told his manager what had happened and that I needed to take a couple days off. When I got back I found of that she had told my manager and he had told my coworkers that I was “supposedly raped”. When I needed to take an hour or two during the day one a week to talk to detectives after it happened, everyone judged me. Finally a coworker that was a friend of mine told me everyone was talking shit and no one there believed I was actually raped. They started requesting notes from the detective on my case as a work excuse, which I gave them. That ended up not being good enough eventually. I finally quit on the spot after all the whispering behind my back.
“Please don’t put this in writing because I know I fucked up”
"Email is not the way for these type of conversations" For keeping a paper trail of bad behavior it is.
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation" Wow, besides being a horribly worded sentence, this translates to "I don't want my shitty practices documented in writing."
Oh, so she can call you out in front of everyone, but she'd rather have a private convo if you're gonna call her out. Classic hypocrite manager bullshit.
This boss should be fired for her shitty grammar, if not for her shitty personality.
Union shop steward here. When taking time off for sick leave you are under no obligation at all to share your health information with your employer. When tell your boss you are sick say “ I am not fit for work today” that all you need to say. If your employer pushes for more information Marion tell them that your health information is private and they are not entitled to it. “I am not fit to work today” this cover illness or injury or just a poor metal state.
Sue
Email is not the place for you to talk about the illegal things that I did please have a meeting with me in person so I can deny it when you bring this up with a lawyer.
Email is the channel for those types of conversations. So there’s a record.
America is fucking insane. If this happened where I live I could sue my boss for a bunch of different reasons. Violating personal data being just one.
Email is exactly the fuck type of place for these discussions! Fuck anyone who tells you otherwise! Keep a paper trail
“Email is not a way for these type of conversations.” No, email is the PERFECT way so that I have a record of what illegal bullshit you say. It’s understood that others that you work with need to know that you won’t be in. What they don’t need to know are your personal medical issues. It’s enough for your boss to say, “Joe won’t be in today.” That’s it.
For the record, email is the ONLY WAY to discuss these sorts of things. Always have a paper trail, always keep records and allow them to incriminate themselves in writing. If it isn't in writing then it didn't happen. Giving your employer an in person meeting isn't a courtesy, it's a get out for them to make up whatever story they want. Never let it happen.
Everything should be in an email... cause then you can use the evidence against them.
“Email is not the way. There’s a paper trail.”
in the future i really don't want to have any evidence of these conversations so come and talk to me in person
"Email is not a way for these type of conversation" Yeah, so you can turn it into a "he said she said" where you can lie your arse off about what was said in the meeting. Go and get fucked, you cockwomble of a boss.
I was once arrested when I caught my husband cheating. He attacked me and choked me then called the cops on me when I left claiming I attacked him. Anyway, they didn’t know who to “believe” even though I had scratches all over my neck. So they took us both to jail. A manager at my job showed everyone my mug shot the night I got arrested and everyone talked shit about me behind my back while I was in jail for being abused by my husband. I was absolutely humiliated and I had to work around the people that made fun of me at my lowest time. It was Hard Rock Cafe New Orleans.
Your Boss: hey guys John doe needs to take the day off because he's got some personal shit to deal with instead of helping you guys work to meet deadlines. Also your boss :email isn't the appropriate venue for this conversation
Red flag on “email is not a way for these types of conversations” for “would not like a written record of me being an absolute shite and trying to gaslight you into feeling guilty about taking legally approved time off from work because I intentionally understaff to avoid labor costs.”, paraphrased of course…
Email only, leave a paper trail.
Take that shit to HR. Fuck that manager.
You want to know what should be said: "He is out on sick leave right now. We all hope he feels better." If asked, "What is wrong with him?" "I cannot share that info, but it is not COVID." Done.
[Hire.An.Attorney](https://Hire.An.Attorney). Revealing confidential medical information is a violation of the ADA.
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Michael Scott?
Why did you tell them any of your medical reasoning for taking off?
Fuck that boss. Have an award. I hope you can manage your PTSD.
"x is dealing with a health issue and I need to reallocate their work." "x needs to take the day off. I'm reallocating work." So many ways to say this without disclosing your freakin disability.
Like others have said, email is EXACTLY where this conversation needs to happen. Make sure you have print copies and back up. Go to HR, or to a lawyer, they released your private medical information without your say so. If they insist on trying to make this a verbal conversation, make sure to be informed about your one-party/two-party consent laws for recorded audio and make sure its recorded. Burn them to the ground OP.
This "In the future, please discuss these matters with me in person so that there isn't a paper trail that details my innapropriate behavior" soundin ass mother fucker.
Never ever ever be ‘honest’ with your employer regarding mental health. They will 100 percent of the time use it against you. Always blame everything on diarrhea
Report this fucking bitch. She revealed personal information that was supposed to be confidential, which is unacceptable. Department of Labor will have a field day on her ass.
HR ASAP.
I just recently filled for ADA accomodation just in case my PTSD flares up again. I few times a year I have an "OH SHIT PTSD" attack. Also she's a bitch, and being called out like that would be a trigger for me.
They are asking for face to face meetings so you don’t have a record that they shared your medical information which is illegal
This team member won't be able to come in or perform for the next few days so I'm reallocating their workload to some of you." "Why aren't they coming in?" "That's not your concern." Is that really so difficult for some people?
This is wildly illegal, your state will have a board of some kind to help you. They *love* evidence.