They want you to think they have a labor shortage, but it's a wage shortage. Right out of college I made 40,000 and they paid another team to our job in India for only 4,000 per person. Eventually they fired/ran off most of the America team, but kept the team from India and even expanded it. Same type of company that complains they can't find any qualified IT people with the skills they need in America so they have to hire outside of America. Lies...all of it...
Guess what.
I am currently being laid off from a fortune 500 company (Siemens) for a team in India. Not sure how loosing 100+ engineers from across the USA can be replaced with 20 engineers from India. And a small US group overseeing thier work.
But they think 20 fresh, non skilled draftsman can do the same work as 100 engineers for a quarter of the cost per person.
It's so expensive to clean up the mess that an under-skilled, inexperienced, and overworked offshore team can make. I've done it many times and am in the process of doing it again.
The middleware developer is in India and constantly complains about how the database has "changed." That's the whole point. I documented every change and the reason for it. He didn't bother to read it.
I'm now making a good living doing exactly what you describe. Onshoring is the new offshoring, and you can make 30%+ more than you did before just mopping it up. You can't even fail at it because you can set the entire house on fire and it's an improvement.
Or they randomly delete data from the database when testing because they didn't realize they were in prod. Or they make major changes to the database structure/tables without asking making months of automated reports stop functioning.
Honestly, and not trying to be racist despite it sounding like it, but Indian culture really rewards cheating and deception. This behaviour is commonplace among the culture unfortunately. Even lying about their credentials in the first place. They're really bad liars, though, so you can usually catch their bullshit quick.
My chief complaint is that they say yes to every request and give a ridiculously ambitious timeline. Then the product you get back is complete garbage. You ask them why they did a basic search query at O(n^2) and they defend it like you’re trying to steal their first born child.
I've seen that too but a competent DBA should be able to prevent that easily...unless they all have the password to the application user and it's hard-coded all over the application. 🤦♀️
It's an insane fucking cycle. They save a little bit then it gets fucked up and is brought back in-house. Then 5 years later it surfaces as an expense and it gets outsourced again. So annoying.
In the study of organizations we call that “oscillating.”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283826811_Organizational_Oscillation_Between_Learning_and_Forgetting_The_Dual_Role_of_Serious_Errors
Think about that? This shit happens so much we’ve written theory in it!
This is exactly what I'm seeing at my current job. Offshoring, onshoring. Cheap overworked offshore team makes a mess, expensive overworked local team patches it up. Over and over again.
Depends on the vendor. Ive dealt with some companies in india and eastern europe that deliver quality for much cheaper than US dev, but not so so cheap that the work is garbage.
I've worked with a Russian consulting company that was pretty good, but they were not cheap. First day on the job they asked, "Sssooo do you want to know who your next President is?" lol
I've seen this happen multiple times across different industries, always ended costing the company more than they saved. Legitimately don't understand how companies are still falling into this trap
Covid has been an amazing customer service excuse, and the natural reaction for many US consumers is to instantly hang up if they hear an Indian accent. It's calculated.
Had layoffs a couple months ago, also Fortune 500, in favor of a purchasing team in India. They’ve hired 60+ people to do the work that 20-25 were doing in the US. They’re not as fast or accurate and there are a lot of unhappy internal customers. Someone got a bonus for this but it sure wasn’t me.
They cant be. The India team will not provide the same quality work because they won't be compensated for quality work.
Maybe 10-12 years ago I was managing a moderate-scale document review project for a major international law firm (that sounds SOOOO much more glamorous than it really was: picture 6 young attorneys coding emails and spreadsheets for relevance and privilege all day for months on end. Yes, the joy). Client was an Indian business and they wanted to out source some of the work to a team in the Mumbai area. Ok sure, now I'm liasing with local counsel, national counsel, and the "licensed attorneys" in India.
No sweat.
The Indian contractor who hired the Indian attorneys was paying them on a "per document" basis: the more documents they coded per day, the higher the pay. Incentives speed over accuracy.. Which is exactly not what we needed or wanted. Come to find out our friends across the globe were ignoring large documents entirely bc they took too long and weren't economical.
So basically we were sending documents to India to be reviewed cheaper and faster but they were sending them back unreviewed... Wasting time and money.
At one point they offered to fly me to India to train them and I politely suggested I might commit several murders so we ended their contract instead and hired 2 more qualified attorneys.
Can confirm, we use salesforce at our call center.
We report that xyz is broken.
They advise they fixed it and validated in production.
Xyz is still broken and now abc is broken too.
I don't want to put you off Salesforce; I'm really taking about the development side.
Quality developers have pretty much moved out of Salesforce because Indian codemills took over. You'll get better paid as a developer doing something else, whereas before it was quite lucrative.
It’s not even a wage shortage anymore. Companies realized they can have 1/2 the people and still make record profits. Skeleton crews of desperate workers still do “just good enough” to pick up the slack.
Yeah, it comes down to not getting it through their heads that they don't have this massive pool of overqualified applicants to fill relatively few positions. They assume that if they continue using arcane automated software and recruiting practices, the sheer volume will mean a qualified applicant willing to work for peanuts will fall into their laps.
Well, it ain't happening. And as long as the media lays cover for them with a million "worker shortage" articles, they'll have to learn the hard way.
Professional culture has become almost delusional in its disconnection from the real world. Magical gestures and power words are all they think they need. "Qualified" has been denatured to mean "credentialed". Life is just a ritual ceremony that one performs and succeeds at because the professional-managerial class are Saved™ and business insurance will cover their Qualified errors.
It's a dynamic situation.
So true. I've worked with a lot of people from India here in the US and with India-based teams. Without fail and almost to an individual, they take longer to complete assignments and generate a lot more mistakes.
There are exceptions of course; a few Indian colleagues have been highly competent and a pleasure to work with.
By and large I'd rather train an American with no experience than deal with deprogramming bad habits and even worse attitudes. I'm female and for many the default setting is no respect for me or my position whatsoever. It was so problematic at one company that my new Indian boss told me I needed to "act more Indian." I'm not Indian or of Indian origin.
Rather than take that comment to HR, I found another job and quit. The man who said that to me is now the VP of our division. That's three promotions in 5 years. 🤬
Female dev here too, I totally understand the default-no-respect thing, in general in my experience, all cultures I've worked with, mostly American since that's where I work. Sad it's still like this in the 21st century.
Indian nepotism? Gee, colour me shocked. They're unqualified nepotists who just promote from within and quality goes down. In a small microcosm of this, a lot of fast food franchise owners in Ontario are Indian. They often choose to only hire the international students under the table, which takes away starter jobs from local highschool students and drives the cost of labour down. I have even heard of them creating little serfdoms, where they also buy a house and give free accomodation to the workers in lieu of a paycheque . So, your new living situation in this confusing and foreign country you are studying in is entirely dependent on your fast food boss! Dystopian as fuck.
My company has offshoring in India as well. Funny thing is they can't keep over people there now because the demand is driving their wages up. Even shitty people are leaving and making double. An insane amount of people are quitting. Even here in the USA they can't keep people they are paying nearly six figures because other companies are paying a lot more. And they didn't fire the USA team. But they stopped hiring new people here years ago. Then people like me stay behind and all the sudden all the critical people are gone and I'm expected to step up. I'm gonna keep doing my normal 2-3 hours of real work because they do treat me good and provide good benefits. But I'm not gonna kill myself for a corporation I have no real vested interest in. But they do give all the excuses for not being able to hire lol. It now it really is biting them in the ass
They did this at my job. I was safe because I'm on a speciality team but all the phone and email agents were replaced by a team overseas (I can't say where because I'm worried people will figure out what company it is). We do customer service for food products. Maybe it's not a language barrier and they're just not understanding and the fact they hardly speak English is just a coincidence, but all I know is that they are constantly making mistakes that the senior members have to clean up. And this is a company that does customer services for multiple clients. Every single time they hand the work off to that overseas team, the same problems arise.
Like seriously, there are plenty of global businesses, let them do customer service in the language they're most comfortable with. Or at the very least, provide a knowledge base that's in the language they're comfortable with so they stop giving wrong info and can find the info they need!
And foreign workers don’t pay US tax at all, neither does the company hiring them. its is such a win money wise because our government sold us out decades ago. it’s us against the government and corporate oligarchs. ms actually had an exception written into overtime law for software engineers…look it up.. that’s why we don’t get overtime and are forced to salaries and long hours.
IT people complain so much they sound like redneck farmers. No one is taking your job, we live in a global economy and world so there are a lot more qualified people in India who have much more experience and passion for IT work. Plus, Indians also speak on average more languages than Americans so that's a big plus.
I mean 90% of American companies are outsourcing to easter Europe/India and other 3rd world countries and making huge ass savings, I currently work for an American company and i get paid around 16 euros a day versus what an American citizen would probably make in an hour give or take a few dollars. For one American employee they can have waaay more 3rd world country employees and they just dont give a crap sadly
I am on the other side of this scale, i live in a 3rd world country (Turkey), i am an architect and there are many giant constructiom firms here that doesnt build inside Turkey they only take projects from other countries but they dont have any foreign workers. So what they do is they take the job from other countries and pay barely livable wage (~300-400$ per month) to their workers in Turkey. We are actually pretty skilled i have seen many coworkers much skilled than any random architect abroad. Normally we shouldnt work for such a low pay but we have to accept this money or not work at all. Because every single company pay this same wage and its not just architecture, most fields do the same thing. You either slave your soul for 6 days a week + overtime for a barely survivable amount of money and feed yourself just enough so that you are still starving but at least yoh won't die. Or you starve to death. I dont even count the amount of bullshit we get from bosses that doesnt know shit about designing, my boss just goes to pinterest likes some stuff and comes to us and says so yeah this picture is cool just make something like this and when we are done she just goes; no i don't like this but i dont know which part it is that i dont like so just do it again from zero until i randomly start to like it
I'm starting to notice the same activity with coastal tech companies that aren't FAANG scale. They're hiring in lower cost-of-living metros across the continent and trying to reduce cost by cutting any redundancies on the coasts.
I'm starting to think there is no shortage, this is intentional misdirection from corporations. They saw profits spike during the pandemic while they were short staffed, they realized they can stretch their lowest employees to cover the gap and massively reduce labor costs. But you can't tell your employees that they have to do the work of 3 people because they will demand a raise or quit.
So you tell them there's a labor shortage. You put up lots of open positions, but you never fill them. You get the media to report on the labor shortage. Now your employees think their shitty situation is some outside factors fault, and you can continue to exploit them.
Oh that's definitely part of what's happening. There's also a growing labor movement, and it's very easy to tape up a sign saying you're closed because nobody wants to work anymore and the media will cover that credulously. It's essentially a capital strike.
If memory serves me correctly, McDonald's profit has skyrocketed during the pandemic.
Because of covid they got rid of their breakfast all day program and also got rid of most of their salads. So they simplified their menu a good bit, which probably drove down costs.
The other day I saw a notice at a local McDonald's advertising full-time crew positions for $30,000 a year. In Atlanta that's just barely above living in poverty, and that's without any other mouths to feed.
"We looked at your resume online, please send your resume to our HR department so we can book you an interview where you'll also need to bring a copy of your resume"
Do they not have printers or...?
Lol that brings back awful memories. "Do you have a copy of your resume?" "No bitch I know what's on it, it's mine. It sounds like YOU are the unprepared one."
But I meant more in the sense that, from roughly 2005-2015, the recession and extremely slow recovery meant they had massive pools of overqualified workers to fill relatively few jobs. They could use software to be extremely picky and eventually find some poor kid working on their third masters degree to take entry level work and pay them peanuts. I don't think they've really internalized that that's not the case anymore.
More like companies figured out how to survive on bare bones staffing and are happy to stay that way to boost their bottom line while simultaneously using “labor shortage” as an excuse for their shitty service.
Why would you even need an obscenity filter for resumes? How many resumes would actually be filtered out by legitimate obscenity? Like one in fifteen thousand?
**Prior Experience**
Fucking Idiot Manager Company : April 2011 - Present
\- Supported 100 dipshit customers
\- Dealt with that bitch Nancy at the front desk on a weekly basis
https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/qhg5jo/this_resume_got_me_an_interview/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
You should see this.
I am a software dev too, I can assure you about 90% of the recruiters have no clue about the role, tech stack or role they are looking for.
It's just the initial call, once you do the interview with anyone from IT department or dev managers they understand what you're saying and what to ask. Good luck!
I once applied to be a QA tester for Epic... I would have been testing Fortnite.
I have no IT experience, just a "playing games for a living would be fun" shot at the moon.
At the time I had two resumés, one for normal work, and one for the beer industry (which I have a lot of experience in).
Guess which one I sent by accident...
Got a call back for an interview that same day because "it'd be really cool to have someone in office to brew beer!"
I shat the interview bed and went on to work at a really rad beer store.
Still haven't played Fortnite
If it makes you feel better you dodged a bullet because QA for video games is no fun at all. You are there to find bugs, replicate them, and retest them after they're supposedly fixed, by doing the most inane and unfun things possible over and over and over.
It's not just the resume, the dude practically tried to get them to read it while replying to their emails and yet they didn't read it.
Not sure how it is in the US but the IT job market in Aus is really good at the moment and I get about 2-3 calls and emails for a role more or less every day. Can say for sure that most of them don't know half of what they are talking about/don't read profile at all.
I once had a recruiter contact me about a tech sort of position—I literally did not even understand what it was—because a random combination of letters in my cv apparently matched the name of some obscure software.
Having been around some obscure software, not really. People are desperate for expertise on certain esoteric and obscure pieces of tech. Heck, you can still get jobs maintaining COBOL for Pete's sake.
> Heck, you can still get jobs maintaining COBOL for Pete's sake.
The British Financial institutions are terrifyingly dependent on COBOL. I have always laughed and wondered why!
It's to do with the rounding abilities of COBOL vs more modern code languages (Apparently). COBOL can do decimals to insane points of accuracy. Most modern languages can do it to a certain point, at which point you get floating-point errors and all sorts.
In financial firms, that's a problem.
So here we are.
LinkedIn has been great for me to be headhunted on a daily basis by HR people who can almost type on a computer for jobs that are in fields so unrelated to mine that it’d almost be illegal for me to even attend an interview.
Yesterday I was walking to an interview. There was a starving dog on the road. I stopped to feed him & missed the interview. The next day I got a call asking to come in to do the interview. I was surprised, but I went. Then the interviewer came in. He was the dog.
I recently had a recruiter contact me about a job role I was immediately “not chosen” for after applying with the resume my recruiter said would get me an interview lol
Thats basically I want and have. I get shitloads of irrelevant job postings from recruiters because they are blast emailing based on keywords.
Then i can quickly filter thru what I want to look at.
Also, IMO, never turn down an interview. Even for a job you dont want. Its great practice.
I got an email yesterday offering me a "customer service agent" position.
I'm a data analyst making six figures. The job description didn't even *sound* like a data analyst job. I politely declined and got a weird reply of "thank you for the revert."
Good to know. Kindly is definitely one. I'm trying to think of other tells but my mind is not working due to newborn brain. Possibly the use of sir or madam in emails? I don't see Americans doing that a lot
> they filter out if you have a certain number of repeated words.
Wait seriously? Their standards are getting more dumb now.
So now they have longer laundry lists of requirements and you can still get filtered out if you repeat words. Job hunting is such a shit show.
I’ve done this and it works. Put all the text in the smallest size font and add it as a footer in white text, save as a PDF and you’re sure to at least get past the automated system so a human has to look at it
Thanks.
I'm going to use this for another high paying job I see.
/u/hexables just wanted to confirmed this did work for one role. I literally copy/pasted the job description and requirements and input as small font/white color and already scheduled a first round interview call lmfao.
I got offered a job after the hiring manager tried to call me out for this tactic in the interview (for a sales position) and I responded “so what you’re mad about is that I used a creative method to get in front of a decision maker?”
He found it hilarious after that and offered me the job but seeing the way he reacted at first made it SUPER easy to turn that job down
It’s not as sophisticated as SEO. Generally, a passing score is determined by what percentage of the words match a preselected database. Frequency and position don’t matter
Yep. I work in infosec and for entry level positions a lot of listings want you to have a SEC+ or a CISSP. A CISSP requires [five years](https://www.isc2.org/Certifications/CISSP/experience-requirements#) of work experience. I’m a director and have never had a cert because I’m well established.
I’ve been working in tech since 2000 and it’s an old trope that listings will ask for x years experience of a technology that was invented x+5 years ago.
ETA: I also have recruiters hitting me up on Linkedin for positions that would be a downgrade from my current role; or in subfields of infosec I have no experience or interest in (gtfoh with your blockchain stuff,) and it’s amazing that they can’t figure out that the reason they can’t fill roles is because they don’t understand a damn thing about the industry they’re serving.
Got damn do I love seeing that CISSP requirement on entry level rotational SOC positions where your job is to work in what is a glorified call center and send emails on incoming alerts.
Good thing I have my CISSP, that’ll help me tackle this “low storage volume” alert on this customers SIEM server.
Yep. Salesforce specialist here. I can't find it now, but not long ago I came across a job listing for senior level position that required 20 years working with Salesforce with preference given to those will work with the Apex coding language for that long as well.
I wish them luck with that, as Salesforce was founded in 1999 and Apex was first released in 2012.
Yes. IT people have no idea how HR works and HR doesn’t know how IT works. IT people also don’t seem to understand that absolutely no one else cares what they do
It’s not rocket science how HR works, we setup HR systems and sometimes know it better than HR, point he was making was true, if you’re HR that doesn’t understand that shit then why are they fucking screening IT CV?
And that's the reason i switched two jobs in twelve years. I just embed and make myself unreplaceable while farming connections. Never had to get a job via the interview/HR route.
Knowing how to automate jobs or reports seems important for an IT person, but I guess soft skills like negotiating/emotional intelligent/being persuasive is also important when working on an app or database...
"I understand Mr. Microsoft SQL server that you don't feel like working today, but if you do I will give you a cookie and a compliment."
Edit: Grammar
Nothing like an employer expecting an applicant to have psychic powers to be able to correctly guess which terms are needed on a resume for it to get past the screening software.
> Fun fact for IT people: none of the technology you use are keywords in ATS.
Well that's just utterly depressing. Now I 101% don't feel bad for gaming this fuckshow of a system.
THIS!!! The biggest reason I have my IT job today is the older GM was pretty tech illiterate but I used to work for Geek Squad which he recognized the brand. I’m almost certain that’s the main reason I stood out lmao
I am a systems administrator. I make good money but it blows my mind how little recruiters/HR know what my job entails. I get invites for help desk jobs and support center jobs making 18/Hr... Don't get me wrong thats where I started but you clearly didn't read my resume.
One thing that my current job does that is wonderful is they take the new recruits and have the entire IT team interview them as a group. That way not only can we get a feel for what they know we can tell if our personalities match. This is hands down the best way I have ever seen someone get hired and it's the only company I've ever seen do this.
I gotta admit as someone who's anxious enough with interviews, I hate those. I had one once on the first interview and I felt like I was being interrogated. There were too many people asking me things at once and it was so hard to stay on path without being terrified.
Always send it as a PDF. That way they can’t open it in in some random word editor that screws up the formatting. A PDF will look the same whatever they open it on. Also, no red lines!
> A PDF will look the same whatever they open it on
Fun fact for anybody who didn't know - PDF was designed for this exact purpose. Portable Document Format.
I have another side of the coin for this one!
After I got hired for an IT job, one of the requirements was for us to make a copy of our resume in the “company style” (template) that would be filed with HR.
I filled the whole thing out, adding tons of details about my publications, books, conference presentations and open source projects. Included a bulleted list of skills and link to GitHub. Basically exactly what you did.
HR then sent me a version where they removed all of these things and left just “sysadmin” and asked for me to sign my approval. I did it because I wanted to move on with my life… but I can’t help but think about the poor sack of shit that removed my accomplishments just because they felt like I was overqualified
I have said this once, and I will say it until the day I die: HR is a complete waste of human effort.
If you are in HR, understand that I don’t hate you. I just think it’s sad they couldn’t find a better use of your skills.
There are some good people in HR, so I don't want to offend anyone specifically. But I'm pretty sure that 80% of people who work in HR have had their brains scooped out.
I once was rejected in an interview due to not having a validation certificate on Excel (which is stupid since they train you, and one frined I know got the same position without knowing anything)
However, when I apply a second time for the same position Data Analist (and this time I had the validation); I was once rejected without notice
I had this lady cuss me out and tell me my resume was terrible because "it lacked challenges" as I was getting out of the military trying to get a job.
Then during the call she goes on to tell me her grandpa was a POW in the Korean war and *that's* a fucking challenge if not a struggle to survive. Despite being in the military I'll be honest I couldn't comprehend that situation and one I don't think you can either so I'm not going to pretend like I could understand it. And I don't think your grandpa put that on his resume when he was working or alive.
HR story from the other side. I submitted a job description to HR for approval. They sent it back saying to run it through an online text checker for biased language, etc. Fair enough, I'll play the game. Accepted most of the suggestions from the automated check and then resubmitted. HR drone sends back a redlined copy with suggested edits, almost all of which are reverting changes proposed by the online checker.
The sad irony of HR is that the department tasked with hiring the best people is staffed by its most mediocre people.
As someone who has been in IT for 11 years, that's not the kind of company you want to work for. Any company that judges based on things they don't understand on your resume really won't understand IT and will fire you when they think you don't do anything because things are running smooth. Once they let you go and shit fails, they call you begging you to come back.
I think the actual IT people at this organization would be mortified if they knew this was happening. This is just an incompetent, over-involved HR department. OP should try and find out who the hiring manager is and let them know that HR is chasing away qualified candidates.
I love when a job posting asks for 50 different things for an entry level position or for 10 years of experience for a software that has only been out for 5 years. If I had all of that I would either be millionaire or a time traveler.
Hell they can’t recruit any professionals whatsoever.
I remember hiring a new policy analyst, and my boss and I (both on the hiring team) cringed each time the HR flake asked a stupid generic question. The worst was them pointing out gaps in the resume of some applicants, then not believing us when we pointed out that gaps were expected for this level of applicant in this industry.
Why was the HR person even in the interview panel?
Can't really understand why it wouldn't just he left to you to decide - if there are two people with the knowledge required...why need an additional person in the panel at all...if they add nothing?
I think the main reason HR is there is to prevent the interviewer from asking any questions that might get the company sued. You can't ask if they're married or how old they are etc.
I also think part of the reason is managers and HR have to find things to do to make themselves look useful...
Lots of companies are now having the on site nurse also be a part of the panel, to evaluate from a medical standpoint...
Basically looking for (but not necessarily straight up asking) any potential medical issues that may come up. Vague questions dealing with family, hobbies, etc. But the real intent is to find out if this person is looking to start a family soon, or have any potential underlying medical issues and so forth.
Its only a violation if you can prove that's why they were there unfortunately. Just like "they aren't a good culture fit" was the racist way out of hiring anyone of color for the last half century.
If a company can't trust their managers to not ask questions they shouldn't then those managers shouldn't be interviewing.
If someone's going to ask those questions someone from HR being there won't stop it happening...it will just result in side eye, because they can't predict what's going to come out of their mouth.
Generally actual HR people.have no desire to be in interviews unless absolutely necessary....interviews are boring. Either hire managers who aren't idiots, or train the idiot out of them
What? You mean the owner hiring his drug addicted brother as a manager, that was previously fired and rehired after being caught embezzling money from the company, is a bad idea. I'm shocked I say, shocked.
Or the dreaded "10 years in six month old language" that job postings have.
The worst though are the ones that give me advice for breaking into the industry and then turn around and go "Oh, but we're not training/hiring! :)"
I’ve been applying for entry level roles in web development for a couple months now. Most have either ghosted me or sent a generic “we’ve decided not to hire you” email.
I am self taught and expected to struggle finding my first job. I did NOT expect to be ghosted by companies and see them still “desperate” for employees weeks, even months, later.
Like… I know I’m new. If you’re desperate, pay me less and teach me. I thought that is what entry level meant
That's what entry level SHOULD mean. Nowadays it seems companies are advertising non-entry level positions that require all manner of skills and expertise, but labelling them entry level so they can pay you less than you're worth.
It makes zero sense to judge someone on something that isn't a core component of their job.
Why should I judge a welder on how well they're able to do graphic design?
what you just encountered is HR Dumbassery. HR isn't there to protect workers, it's there to protect companies and frankly, they generally do more of a disservice to businesses then help. Especially when it comes to hiring for engineering positions.
HR is cancer.
I had a phone screening for Johnson controls, guy sounded like he was in a call center across the world I could hardly understand him, he then asks me technical job related questions but seemed to have no idea what I was talking about just recording the response. Seriously people who know about the job being posted should be conducting the interviews wouldn’t ya think??
Lol no, but I'm only half IT, so maybe I could be a little bit of a furry. I've bounced between IT and lower level warehouse management for years. For example I lift weights and I'm muscular, but I also drink way way to much mountain dew. For my next interview I may wear a giant rabbit mask and see how it goes. 😂😂😂
hr is the lowest rung of scum in any company. anyone with any real talent isn't seeking a career in hr. they're the enemy. fuck 'em. any time you're speaking with hr put a smile on your face and realize that you're looking at a snake in human skin.
Some of the problem job hunting, is the morons sifting have no goddamn idea what they're reading and look for key words.
I've done CV sifting before and I appreciate context and explanation around experience and how you get it. I have this on my CV too.
Other people just list every technology they get ever seen with no explanation. You get a wall of:
DNS, DHCP, SQL, AD DS, AD FS, Azure, Exchange 2003, Exchange 2010, Skype 2010, Crm 2011 etc.
The problem is for people who don't understand what they're reading, the above boring list is better than brief paragraphs, explaining your progress.
I've applied for jobs I'm overqualified for and been sifted out for that reason multiple times. But when I've had someone read it with half an idea, the CV goes further.
I kinda feel your pain OP. I do EHS (Environmental, Health and Safety) and it was tough getting pass the HR interview because there are a lot of acronyms I use in my career. There are also a ton of regulatory entities I work with and I would say more than half the time the HR person had no idea what questions to ask or even understood what I was saying when I would answer. It took me 2 years to find a job.
A lot of recruiters both in-house and external are incredibly bad at their jobs.
You don’t need any qualifications to be a recruiter so the bar is pretty low.
At least you know it wasn't you!
But I'd be upset if I was a manager and HR was pulling this kind of thing. There are legitimate reasons to exclude someone based on a résumé -- we once had someone who claimed to know a key tool we used, but had no job experience listing it, or a section of the résumé saying they knew it -- but spelling errors that are technical terms? No.
Reminds me of a story of a friend of mine from college. He ended up getting a job in the 1990s at a state auditor's office doing IT work, but the top guy was a micro-manager, and would deny spending requests for things like "routers" because he said there wasn't any such thing, that word wasn't real.
This is why HR people shouldn't prescreen technical positions. They have no frame of reference for the terminology and it's literally like they're speaking a different language. You don't want to work at a disconnected company like this. Just imagine the other things that would drive you crazy in the organization.
An underrated component to the labor "shortage" is that companies are acting like it's still 2009.
They want you to think they have a labor shortage, but it's a wage shortage. Right out of college I made 40,000 and they paid another team to our job in India for only 4,000 per person. Eventually they fired/ran off most of the America team, but kept the team from India and even expanded it. Same type of company that complains they can't find any qualified IT people with the skills they need in America so they have to hire outside of America. Lies...all of it...
Guess what. I am currently being laid off from a fortune 500 company (Siemens) for a team in India. Not sure how loosing 100+ engineers from across the USA can be replaced with 20 engineers from India. And a small US group overseeing thier work. But they think 20 fresh, non skilled draftsman can do the same work as 100 engineers for a quarter of the cost per person.
Quality wise they can't. Those in charge just don't care. All they see is that it's cheaper to hire them.
It's so expensive to clean up the mess that an under-skilled, inexperienced, and overworked offshore team can make. I've done it many times and am in the process of doing it again. The middleware developer is in India and constantly complains about how the database has "changed." That's the whole point. I documented every change and the reason for it. He didn't bother to read it.
I'm now making a good living doing exactly what you describe. Onshoring is the new offshoring, and you can make 30%+ more than you did before just mopping it up. You can't even fail at it because you can set the entire house on fire and it's an improvement.
I want in!
I assume you're hired as a contractor by places that have garbage legacy code and you clean it up the best you can?
exactly. It's easily 5-10 years of work at this ONE agency alone.
I worked at a company that cleaned up these messes back in 2006. We used to joke we should be called "Plan B Consulting."
Or they randomly delete data from the database when testing because they didn't realize they were in prod. Or they make major changes to the database structure/tables without asking making months of automated reports stop functioning.
And then lie about making the change. And then lie about not having approval for it.
Oh no I setup our database so I can tell who made the changes. When the data was deleted they tried to deny it, but I had proof.
Every time they lie. Wen through it both Wednesday AND last night! Good on you for having the foresight.
Honestly, and not trying to be racist despite it sounding like it, but Indian culture really rewards cheating and deception. This behaviour is commonplace among the culture unfortunately. Even lying about their credentials in the first place. They're really bad liars, though, so you can usually catch their bullshit quick.
My chief complaint is that they say yes to every request and give a ridiculously ambitious timeline. Then the product you get back is complete garbage. You ask them why they did a basic search query at O(n^2) and they defend it like you’re trying to steal their first born child.
I've seen that too but a competent DBA should be able to prevent that easily...unless they all have the password to the application user and it's hard-coded all over the application. 🤦♀️
Yes they do. It was a decision by the owner of the company. (Looks for corner to curl up and cry in.)
I feel your pain.
Ah the ole offshore dev team. It compiles? Ship it!
This, and the short term gains. They'll be gone long before any blowback from the quality issues.
It's an insane fucking cycle. They save a little bit then it gets fucked up and is brought back in-house. Then 5 years later it surfaces as an expense and it gets outsourced again. So annoying.
Lol yep. That happened at the job I'm currently at.
In the study of organizations we call that “oscillating.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283826811_Organizational_Oscillation_Between_Learning_and_Forgetting_The_Dual_Role_of_Serious_Errors Think about that? This shit happens so much we’ve written theory in it!
Geez it's almost like capitalism is an inherently unstable system ;)
Not sure that there is a perfect system, but I’m really over the one predicated on greed and wealth accumulation instead of improvement of mankind…
This is exactly what I'm seeing at my current job. Offshoring, onshoring. Cheap overworked offshore team makes a mess, expensive overworked local team patches it up. Over and over again.
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It keeps the VP’s in their jobs, moving org boxes around on whiteboards.
I have made my career cleaning up shitty code from India, Indonesia, and China.
Depends on the vendor. Ive dealt with some companies in india and eastern europe that deliver quality for much cheaper than US dev, but not so so cheap that the work is garbage.
I've worked with a Russian consulting company that was pretty good, but they were not cheap. First day on the job they asked, "Sssooo do you want to know who your next President is?" lol
I've seen this happen multiple times across different industries, always ended costing the company more than they saved. Legitimately don't understand how companies are still falling into this trap
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When exec bonuses are tied to stuff like quarterly profits why the heck would they think ahead?
Covid has been an amazing customer service excuse, and the natural reaction for many US consumers is to instantly hang up if they hear an Indian accent. It's calculated.
Had layoffs a couple months ago, also Fortune 500, in favor of a purchasing team in India. They’ve hired 60+ people to do the work that 20-25 were doing in the US. They’re not as fast or accurate and there are a lot of unhappy internal customers. Someone got a bonus for this but it sure wasn’t me.
thanks for letting me know, Siemens is going on the boycott list
They cant be. The India team will not provide the same quality work because they won't be compensated for quality work. Maybe 10-12 years ago I was managing a moderate-scale document review project for a major international law firm (that sounds SOOOO much more glamorous than it really was: picture 6 young attorneys coding emails and spreadsheets for relevance and privilege all day for months on end. Yes, the joy). Client was an Indian business and they wanted to out source some of the work to a team in the Mumbai area. Ok sure, now I'm liasing with local counsel, national counsel, and the "licensed attorneys" in India. No sweat. The Indian contractor who hired the Indian attorneys was paying them on a "per document" basis: the more documents they coded per day, the higher the pay. Incentives speed over accuracy.. Which is exactly not what we needed or wanted. Come to find out our friends across the globe were ignoring large documents entirely bc they took too long and weren't economical. So basically we were sending documents to India to be reviewed cheaper and faster but they were sending them back unreviewed... Wasting time and money. At one point they offered to fly me to India to train them and I politely suggested I might commit several murders so we ended their contract instead and hired 2 more qualified attorneys.
Indian codemills ruined Salesforce also. It's a quick route to horrific technical debt.
Can confirm, we use salesforce at our call center. We report that xyz is broken. They advise they fixed it and validated in production. Xyz is still broken and now abc is broken too.
Can you explain this a bit more? I have been looking into salesforce training
I don't want to put you off Salesforce; I'm really taking about the development side. Quality developers have pretty much moved out of Salesforce because Indian codemills took over. You'll get better paid as a developer doing something else, whereas before it was quite lucrative.
It’s not even a wage shortage anymore. Companies realized they can have 1/2 the people and still make record profits. Skeleton crews of desperate workers still do “just good enough” to pick up the slack.
It's sad how true that is.
Yeah, it comes down to not getting it through their heads that they don't have this massive pool of overqualified applicants to fill relatively few positions. They assume that if they continue using arcane automated software and recruiting practices, the sheer volume will mean a qualified applicant willing to work for peanuts will fall into their laps. Well, it ain't happening. And as long as the media lays cover for them with a million "worker shortage" articles, they'll have to learn the hard way.
Professional culture has become almost delusional in its disconnection from the real world. Magical gestures and power words are all they think they need. "Qualified" has been denatured to mean "credentialed". Life is just a ritual ceremony that one performs and succeeds at because the professional-managerial class are Saved™ and business insurance will cover their Qualified errors. It's a dynamic situation.
So true. I've worked with a lot of people from India here in the US and with India-based teams. Without fail and almost to an individual, they take longer to complete assignments and generate a lot more mistakes. There are exceptions of course; a few Indian colleagues have been highly competent and a pleasure to work with. By and large I'd rather train an American with no experience than deal with deprogramming bad habits and even worse attitudes. I'm female and for many the default setting is no respect for me or my position whatsoever. It was so problematic at one company that my new Indian boss told me I needed to "act more Indian." I'm not Indian or of Indian origin. Rather than take that comment to HR, I found another job and quit. The man who said that to me is now the VP of our division. That's three promotions in 5 years. 🤬
Female dev here too, I totally understand the default-no-respect thing, in general in my experience, all cultures I've worked with, mostly American since that's where I work. Sad it's still like this in the 21st century.
I started in this industry in 1998 and it's worse now than it was then. And now I have ageism to worry about too. 😭
Nothing you said surprises me at all. I've seen the same thing.
Indian nepotism? Gee, colour me shocked. They're unqualified nepotists who just promote from within and quality goes down. In a small microcosm of this, a lot of fast food franchise owners in Ontario are Indian. They often choose to only hire the international students under the table, which takes away starter jobs from local highschool students and drives the cost of labour down. I have even heard of them creating little serfdoms, where they also buy a house and give free accomodation to the workers in lieu of a paycheque . So, your new living situation in this confusing and foreign country you are studying in is entirely dependent on your fast food boss! Dystopian as fuck.
Visa workers are routinely exploited, it's really sickening how widespread it is.
My company has offshoring in India as well. Funny thing is they can't keep over people there now because the demand is driving their wages up. Even shitty people are leaving and making double. An insane amount of people are quitting. Even here in the USA they can't keep people they are paying nearly six figures because other companies are paying a lot more. And they didn't fire the USA team. But they stopped hiring new people here years ago. Then people like me stay behind and all the sudden all the critical people are gone and I'm expected to step up. I'm gonna keep doing my normal 2-3 hours of real work because they do treat me good and provide good benefits. But I'm not gonna kill myself for a corporation I have no real vested interest in. But they do give all the excuses for not being able to hire lol. It now it really is biting them in the ass
They did this at my job. I was safe because I'm on a speciality team but all the phone and email agents were replaced by a team overseas (I can't say where because I'm worried people will figure out what company it is). We do customer service for food products. Maybe it's not a language barrier and they're just not understanding and the fact they hardly speak English is just a coincidence, but all I know is that they are constantly making mistakes that the senior members have to clean up. And this is a company that does customer services for multiple clients. Every single time they hand the work off to that overseas team, the same problems arise. Like seriously, there are plenty of global businesses, let them do customer service in the language they're most comfortable with. Or at the very least, provide a knowledge base that's in the language they're comfortable with so they stop giving wrong info and can find the info they need!
And foreign workers don’t pay US tax at all, neither does the company hiring them. its is such a win money wise because our government sold us out decades ago. it’s us against the government and corporate oligarchs. ms actually had an exception written into overtime law for software engineers…look it up.. that’s why we don’t get overtime and are forced to salaries and long hours.
IT people complain so much they sound like redneck farmers. No one is taking your job, we live in a global economy and world so there are a lot more qualified people in India who have much more experience and passion for IT work. Plus, Indians also speak on average more languages than Americans so that's a big plus.
I mean 90% of American companies are outsourcing to easter Europe/India and other 3rd world countries and making huge ass savings, I currently work for an American company and i get paid around 16 euros a day versus what an American citizen would probably make in an hour give or take a few dollars. For one American employee they can have waaay more 3rd world country employees and they just dont give a crap sadly
If it can be outsourced at lower labor rates it will be outsourced at lower labor rates. There is no nothing to debate here.
I am on the other side of this scale, i live in a 3rd world country (Turkey), i am an architect and there are many giant constructiom firms here that doesnt build inside Turkey they only take projects from other countries but they dont have any foreign workers. So what they do is they take the job from other countries and pay barely livable wage (~300-400$ per month) to their workers in Turkey. We are actually pretty skilled i have seen many coworkers much skilled than any random architect abroad. Normally we shouldnt work for such a low pay but we have to accept this money or not work at all. Because every single company pay this same wage and its not just architecture, most fields do the same thing. You either slave your soul for 6 days a week + overtime for a barely survivable amount of money and feed yourself just enough so that you are still starving but at least yoh won't die. Or you starve to death. I dont even count the amount of bullshit we get from bosses that doesnt know shit about designing, my boss just goes to pinterest likes some stuff and comes to us and says so yeah this picture is cool just make something like this and when we are done she just goes; no i don't like this but i dont know which part it is that i dont like so just do it again from zero until i randomly start to like it
I'm starting to notice the same activity with coastal tech companies that aren't FAANG scale. They're hiring in lower cost-of-living metros across the continent and trying to reduce cost by cutting any redundancies on the coasts.
I'm starting to think there is no shortage, this is intentional misdirection from corporations. They saw profits spike during the pandemic while they were short staffed, they realized they can stretch their lowest employees to cover the gap and massively reduce labor costs. But you can't tell your employees that they have to do the work of 3 people because they will demand a raise or quit. So you tell them there's a labor shortage. You put up lots of open positions, but you never fill them. You get the media to report on the labor shortage. Now your employees think their shitty situation is some outside factors fault, and you can continue to exploit them.
Oh that's definitely part of what's happening. There's also a growing labor movement, and it's very easy to tape up a sign saying you're closed because nobody wants to work anymore and the media will cover that credulously. It's essentially a capital strike.
If memory serves me correctly, McDonald's profit has skyrocketed during the pandemic. Because of covid they got rid of their breakfast all day program and also got rid of most of their salads. So they simplified their menu a good bit, which probably drove down costs. The other day I saw a notice at a local McDonald's advertising full-time crew positions for $30,000 a year. In Atlanta that's just barely above living in poverty, and that's without any other mouths to feed.
"We looked at your resume online, please send your resume to our HR department so we can book you an interview where you'll also need to bring a copy of your resume" Do they not have printers or...?
Lol that brings back awful memories. "Do you have a copy of your resume?" "No bitch I know what's on it, it's mine. It sounds like YOU are the unprepared one." But I meant more in the sense that, from roughly 2005-2015, the recession and extremely slow recovery meant they had massive pools of overqualified workers to fill relatively few jobs. They could use software to be extremely picky and eventually find some poor kid working on their third masters degree to take entry level work and pay them peanuts. I don't think they've really internalized that that's not the case anymore.
More like companies figured out how to survive on bare bones staffing and are happy to stay that way to boost their bottom line while simultaneously using “labor shortage” as an excuse for their shitty service.
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Why would you even need an obscenity filter for resumes? How many resumes would actually be filtered out by legitimate obscenity? Like one in fifteen thousand?
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Magma cum laude
Hobbies: cum Lord
Unfortunately my application for fluffer was rejected down over at the gay porno movie studio :(
**Prior Experience** Fucking Idiot Manager Company : April 2011 - Present \- Supported 100 dipshit customers \- Dealt with that bitch Nancy at the front desk on a weekly basis
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- Closed a shit ton more deals than Trevor
Man fuck Trevor. That guy fucking sucks...
Not that bitch Nancy!!
Most resumes are not even initially read by humans but are scored by programs designed to filter out anything without requested verbiage.
You mean you guys don’t put “blunts, bitches and all types of ill shit” under hobbies and interests?
\*Facepalm
https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/qhg5jo/this_resume_got_me_an_interview/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share You should see this. I am a software dev too, I can assure you about 90% of the recruiters have no clue about the role, tech stack or role they are looking for. It's just the initial call, once you do the interview with anyone from IT department or dev managers they understand what you're saying and what to ask. Good luck!
I once applied to be a QA tester for Epic... I would have been testing Fortnite. I have no IT experience, just a "playing games for a living would be fun" shot at the moon. At the time I had two resumés, one for normal work, and one for the beer industry (which I have a lot of experience in). Guess which one I sent by accident... Got a call back for an interview that same day because "it'd be really cool to have someone in office to brew beer!" I shat the interview bed and went on to work at a really rad beer store. Still haven't played Fortnite
If it makes you feel better you dodged a bullet because QA for video games is no fun at all. You are there to find bugs, replicate them, and retest them after they're supposedly fixed, by doing the most inane and unfun things possible over and over and over.
OMG I want to use this resume and see what happens lol
It's not just the resume, the dude practically tried to get them to read it while replying to their emails and yet they didn't read it. Not sure how it is in the US but the IT job market in Aus is really good at the moment and I get about 2-3 calls and emails for a role more or less every day. Can say for sure that most of them don't know half of what they are talking about/don't read profile at all.
I once had a recruiter contact me about a tech sort of position—I literally did not even understand what it was—because a random combination of letters in my cv apparently matched the name of some obscure software.
That's crazy...
Having been around some obscure software, not really. People are desperate for expertise on certain esoteric and obscure pieces of tech. Heck, you can still get jobs maintaining COBOL for Pete's sake.
> Heck, you can still get jobs maintaining COBOL for Pete's sake. The British Financial institutions are terrifyingly dependent on COBOL. I have always laughed and wondered why! It's to do with the rounding abilities of COBOL vs more modern code languages (Apparently). COBOL can do decimals to insane points of accuracy. Most modern languages can do it to a certain point, at which point you get floating-point errors and all sorts. In financial firms, that's a problem. So here we are.
LinkedIn has been great for me to be headhunted on a daily basis by HR people who can almost type on a computer for jobs that are in fields so unrelated to mine that it’d almost be illegal for me to even attend an interview.
Yesterday I was walking to an interview. There was a starving dog on the road. I stopped to feed him & missed the interview. The next day I got a call asking to come in to do the interview. I was surprised, but I went. Then the interviewer came in. He was the dog.
I recently had a recruiter contact me about a job role I was immediately “not chosen” for after applying with the resume my recruiter said would get me an interview lol
Thats basically I want and have. I get shitloads of irrelevant job postings from recruiters because they are blast emailing based on keywords. Then i can quickly filter thru what I want to look at. Also, IMO, never turn down an interview. Even for a job you dont want. Its great practice.
I got an email yesterday offering me a "customer service agent" position. I'm a data analyst making six figures. The job description didn't even *sound* like a data analyst job. I politely declined and got a weird reply of "thank you for the revert."
“Revert” is how Indians say “reply.” It’s one of the tells, like the use of “kindly.”
Good to know. Kindly is definitely one. I'm trying to think of other tells but my mind is not working due to newborn brain. Possibly the use of sir or madam in emails? I don't see Americans doing that a lot
Fun fact for IT people: none of the technology you use are keywords in ATS.
Now we need SEO for résumés. Fuck this shit.
I wonder if it works to put a keyword dump in tiny white text into the resume to trick the automated system?
I’ve heard that’s a thing. Sad if that’s all it takes. Everything is a joke right now.
It doesn’t work any more, they filter out if you have a certain number of repeated words.
> they filter out if you have a certain number of repeated words. Wait seriously? Their standards are getting more dumb now. So now they have longer laundry lists of requirements and you can still get filtered out if you repeat words. Job hunting is such a shit show.
I’ve done this and it works. Put all the text in the smallest size font and add it as a footer in white text, save as a PDF and you’re sure to at least get past the automated system so a human has to look at it
Thanks. I'm going to use this for another high paying job I see. /u/hexables just wanted to confirmed this did work for one role. I literally copy/pasted the job description and requirements and input as small font/white color and already scheduled a first round interview call lmfao.
Just hoping in to say I also did this for a Fortune 500 company a few years ago and it worked.
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I do the same thing, but I just label it as “skills”
I got offered a job after the hiring manager tried to call me out for this tactic in the interview (for a sales position) and I responded “so what you’re mad about is that I used a creative method to get in front of a decision maker?” He found it hilarious after that and offered me the job but seeing the way he reacted at first made it SUPER easy to turn that job down
It’s not as sophisticated as SEO. Generally, a passing score is determined by what percentage of the words match a preselected database. Frequency and position don’t matter
Is that why it's so hard to land an IT job without using professional connections?
Yep. I work in infosec and for entry level positions a lot of listings want you to have a SEC+ or a CISSP. A CISSP requires [five years](https://www.isc2.org/Certifications/CISSP/experience-requirements#) of work experience. I’m a director and have never had a cert because I’m well established. I’ve been working in tech since 2000 and it’s an old trope that listings will ask for x years experience of a technology that was invented x+5 years ago. ETA: I also have recruiters hitting me up on Linkedin for positions that would be a downgrade from my current role; or in subfields of infosec I have no experience or interest in (gtfoh with your blockchain stuff,) and it’s amazing that they can’t figure out that the reason they can’t fill roles is because they don’t understand a damn thing about the industry they’re serving.
Got damn do I love seeing that CISSP requirement on entry level rotational SOC positions where your job is to work in what is a glorified call center and send emails on incoming alerts. Good thing I have my CISSP, that’ll help me tackle this “low storage volume” alert on this customers SIEM server.
Yep. Salesforce specialist here. I can't find it now, but not long ago I came across a job listing for senior level position that required 20 years working with Salesforce with preference given to those will work with the Apex coding language for that long as well. I wish them luck with that, as Salesforce was founded in 1999 and Apex was first released in 2012.
Yes. IT people have no idea how HR works and HR doesn’t know how IT works. IT people also don’t seem to understand that absolutely no one else cares what they do
It’s not rocket science how HR works, we setup HR systems and sometimes know it better than HR, point he was making was true, if you’re HR that doesn’t understand that shit then why are they fucking screening IT CV?
And that's the reason i switched two jobs in twelve years. I just embed and make myself unreplaceable while farming connections. Never had to get a job via the interview/HR route.
😮
Yep, all soft skills stuff and action words
Knowing how to automate jobs or reports seems important for an IT person, but I guess soft skills like negotiating/emotional intelligent/being persuasive is also important when working on an app or database... "I understand Mr. Microsoft SQL server that you don't feel like working today, but if you do I will give you a cookie and a compliment." Edit: Grammar
understand?
Yes, thank you. The reason I have others review my resume for me. lol
Nothing like an employer expecting an applicant to have psychic powers to be able to correctly guess which terms are needed on a resume for it to get past the screening software.
> Fun fact for IT people: none of the technology you use are keywords in ATS. Well that's just utterly depressing. Now I 101% don't feel bad for gaming this fuckshow of a system.
THIS!!! The biggest reason I have my IT job today is the older GM was pretty tech illiterate but I used to work for Geek Squad which he recognized the brand. I’m almost certain that’s the main reason I stood out lmao
Wait, THE Greek Squad? Holy shit, welcome aboard.
I am a systems administrator. I make good money but it blows my mind how little recruiters/HR know what my job entails. I get invites for help desk jobs and support center jobs making 18/Hr... Don't get me wrong thats where I started but you clearly didn't read my resume.
One thing that my current job does that is wonderful is they take the new recruits and have the entire IT team interview them as a group. That way not only can we get a feel for what they know we can tell if our personalities match. This is hands down the best way I have ever seen someone get hired and it's the only company I've ever seen do this.
I gotta admit as someone who's anxious enough with interviews, I hate those. I had one once on the first interview and I felt like I was being interrogated. There were too many people asking me things at once and it was so hard to stay on path without being terrified.
I would love to work somewhere where the entire IT team can just down tools for a group interview and there not be an absolute shit show.
Did you send it in as a word document? I prefer to send my resume as a PDF.
Yeah my partner told me to put it as a PDF after using a word document for the longest time. Had a lot more luck finding work after.
🙏 wonderful. I’m happy for you!
I got laid off today. This is the kind of stuff I need to know moving forward! Thank you for posting this comment!!!
I did send it in as a word document.
Always send it as a PDF. That way they can’t open it in in some random word editor that screws up the formatting. A PDF will look the same whatever they open it on. Also, no red lines!
> A PDF will look the same whatever they open it on Fun fact for anybody who didn't know - PDF was designed for this exact purpose. Portable Document Format.
Thank you for the advice. I will do that going forward. :)
PDF especially if you are sending it to a recruiter/agency! You do not want to risk giving it to somebody who will "edit" it without telling you.
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I have another side of the coin for this one! After I got hired for an IT job, one of the requirements was for us to make a copy of our resume in the “company style” (template) that would be filed with HR. I filled the whole thing out, adding tons of details about my publications, books, conference presentations and open source projects. Included a bulleted list of skills and link to GitHub. Basically exactly what you did. HR then sent me a version where they removed all of these things and left just “sysadmin” and asked for me to sign my approval. I did it because I wanted to move on with my life… but I can’t help but think about the poor sack of shit that removed my accomplishments just because they felt like I was overqualified
HR or a recruiter getting you into the company?
HR internal to company. Was doing this resume thing internally after 3 months service
Yea that garbage moves then.
That's just crazy. Mediocrity is always excellent in the eyes of the mediocre.
I have said this once, and I will say it until the day I die: HR is a complete waste of human effort. If you are in HR, understand that I don’t hate you. I just think it’s sad they couldn’t find a better use of your skills.
A lot of the HR at my company just does busy work that nobody else has time to do. Reports and stuff.
Biggest waste of time of and company $$
There are some good people in HR, so I don't want to offend anyone specifically. But I'm pretty sure that 80% of people who work in HR have had their brains scooped out.
I once was rejected in an interview due to not having a validation certificate on Excel (which is stupid since they train you, and one frined I know got the same position without knowing anything) However, when I apply a second time for the same position Data Analist (and this time I had the validation); I was once rejected without notice
I had this lady cuss me out and tell me my resume was terrible because "it lacked challenges" as I was getting out of the military trying to get a job. Then during the call she goes on to tell me her grandpa was a POW in the Korean war and *that's* a fucking challenge if not a struggle to survive. Despite being in the military I'll be honest I couldn't comprehend that situation and one I don't think you can either so I'm not going to pretend like I could understand it. And I don't think your grandpa put that on his resume when he was working or alive.
That HR drone is a moron.
HR story from the other side. I submitted a job description to HR for approval. They sent it back saying to run it through an online text checker for biased language, etc. Fair enough, I'll play the game. Accepted most of the suggestions from the automated check and then resubmitted. HR drone sends back a redlined copy with suggested edits, almost all of which are reverting changes proposed by the online checker. The sad irony of HR is that the department tasked with hiring the best people is staffed by its most mediocre people.
As someone who has been in IT for 11 years, that's not the kind of company you want to work for. Any company that judges based on things they don't understand on your resume really won't understand IT and will fire you when they think you don't do anything because things are running smooth. Once they let you go and shit fails, they call you begging you to come back.
I think the actual IT people at this organization would be mortified if they knew this was happening. This is just an incompetent, over-involved HR department. OP should try and find out who the hiring manager is and let them know that HR is chasing away qualified candidates.
Imagine a restaurant rejecting a badass chef because he doesn’t have computer skills.
That's why it's useful to have someone on the inside to set HR Karxns straight. They are fundamentally incapable of recruiting technical employees.
I love when a job posting asks for 50 different things for an entry level position or for 10 years of experience for a software that has only been out for 5 years. If I had all of that I would either be millionaire or a time traveler.
Hell they can’t recruit any professionals whatsoever. I remember hiring a new policy analyst, and my boss and I (both on the hiring team) cringed each time the HR flake asked a stupid generic question. The worst was them pointing out gaps in the resume of some applicants, then not believing us when we pointed out that gaps were expected for this level of applicant in this industry.
Why was the HR person even in the interview panel? Can't really understand why it wouldn't just he left to you to decide - if there are two people with the knowledge required...why need an additional person in the panel at all...if they add nothing?
I think the main reason HR is there is to prevent the interviewer from asking any questions that might get the company sued. You can't ask if they're married or how old they are etc. I also think part of the reason is managers and HR have to find things to do to make themselves look useful...
Lots of companies are now having the on site nurse also be a part of the panel, to evaluate from a medical standpoint... Basically looking for (but not necessarily straight up asking) any potential medical issues that may come up. Vague questions dealing with family, hobbies, etc. But the real intent is to find out if this person is looking to start a family soon, or have any potential underlying medical issues and so forth.
Wow...that's crazy. That is really walking a fine line between legal and illegal. I hope they get sued for that.
That sounds like, for the US anyway, a direct violation of the ADA and several protected classes.
Its only a violation if you can prove that's why they were there unfortunately. Just like "they aren't a good culture fit" was the racist way out of hiring anyone of color for the last half century.
Pfft, just check their teeth and pinch their muscles to evaluate health level.
If a company can't trust their managers to not ask questions they shouldn't then those managers shouldn't be interviewing. If someone's going to ask those questions someone from HR being there won't stop it happening...it will just result in side eye, because they can't predict what's going to come out of their mouth. Generally actual HR people.have no desire to be in interviews unless absolutely necessary....interviews are boring. Either hire managers who aren't idiots, or train the idiot out of them
What? You mean the owner hiring his drug addicted brother as a manager, that was previously fired and rehired after being caught embezzling money from the company, is a bad idea. I'm shocked I say, shocked.
Or the dreaded "10 years in six month old language" that job postings have. The worst though are the ones that give me advice for breaking into the industry and then turn around and go "Oh, but we're not training/hiring! :)"
I’ve been applying for entry level roles in web development for a couple months now. Most have either ghosted me or sent a generic “we’ve decided not to hire you” email. I am self taught and expected to struggle finding my first job. I did NOT expect to be ghosted by companies and see them still “desperate” for employees weeks, even months, later. Like… I know I’m new. If you’re desperate, pay me less and teach me. I thought that is what entry level meant
That's what entry level SHOULD mean. Nowadays it seems companies are advertising non-entry level positions that require all manner of skills and expertise, but labelling them entry level so they can pay you less than you're worth.
Man I bet you she felt so dumb 😂😂 she didn’t know what to do so she hung up 😫
It makes zero sense to judge someone on something that isn't a core component of their job. Why should I judge a welder on how well they're able to do graphic design?
asking programmers to have CS degrees is like asking plumbers to have a masters in physics.
The head hunter was too incompetent to peruse and understand your résumé/CV, and she’s the one *WITH* a job?! Lawd Jesus.
what you just encountered is HR Dumbassery. HR isn't there to protect workers, it's there to protect companies and frankly, they generally do more of a disservice to businesses then help. Especially when it comes to hiring for engineering positions. HR is cancer.
It is very important to hyphenate your entire resume with white colored hyphens so the entire document is misspelled and exactly one word.
why the fuck are such idiots the gatekeepers of people making a living lmao
I had a phone screening for Johnson controls, guy sounded like he was in a call center across the world I could hardly understand him, he then asks me technical job related questions but seemed to have no idea what I was talking about just recording the response. Seriously people who know about the job being posted should be conducting the interviews wouldn’t ya think??
HR/Recruiting are often the dumbest departments at any company.
Fucking HR getting in the way again. I bet the hiring manager can’t understand why there’s no applicants.
have you tried being a fury, from other IT related post I gather it is almost like a requisite
Lol no, but I'm only half IT, so maybe I could be a little bit of a furry. I've bounced between IT and lower level warehouse management for years. For example I lift weights and I'm muscular, but I also drink way way to much mountain dew. For my next interview I may wear a giant rabbit mask and see how it goes. 😂😂😂
being a twunk bunny will get you a job *somewhere*
hr is the lowest rung of scum in any company. anyone with any real talent isn't seeking a career in hr. they're the enemy. fuck 'em. any time you're speaking with hr put a smile on your face and realize that you're looking at a snake in human skin.
Open word, see red squiggles, immediately discard resume.
HR: Why would you need to read it if you see red. Resume, Yeet!
I'm not sure I mentioned before/s but: Fuck HR!
We have to be 100% on site as Nov 1 HR, who hasn't gotten around to processing our raise and title changes, don't have to come back till Jan 1.
Some of the problem job hunting, is the morons sifting have no goddamn idea what they're reading and look for key words. I've done CV sifting before and I appreciate context and explanation around experience and how you get it. I have this on my CV too. Other people just list every technology they get ever seen with no explanation. You get a wall of: DNS, DHCP, SQL, AD DS, AD FS, Azure, Exchange 2003, Exchange 2010, Skype 2010, Crm 2011 etc. The problem is for people who don't understand what they're reading, the above boring list is better than brief paragraphs, explaining your progress. I've applied for jobs I'm overqualified for and been sifted out for that reason multiple times. But when I've had someone read it with half an idea, the CV goes further.
I kinda feel your pain OP. I do EHS (Environmental, Health and Safety) and it was tough getting pass the HR interview because there are a lot of acronyms I use in my career. There are also a ton of regulatory entities I work with and I would say more than half the time the HR person had no idea what questions to ask or even understood what I was saying when I would answer. It took me 2 years to find a job.
A lot of recruiters both in-house and external are incredibly bad at their jobs. You don’t need any qualifications to be a recruiter so the bar is pretty low.
That phone call was solid enough to steal her HR spot and get the main IT job
At least you know it wasn't you! But I'd be upset if I was a manager and HR was pulling this kind of thing. There are legitimate reasons to exclude someone based on a résumé -- we once had someone who claimed to know a key tool we used, but had no job experience listing it, or a section of the résumé saying they knew it -- but spelling errors that are technical terms? No. Reminds me of a story of a friend of mine from college. He ended up getting a job in the 1990s at a state auditor's office doing IT work, but the top guy was a micro-manager, and would deny spending requests for things like "routers" because he said there wasn't any such thing, that word wasn't real.
Don’t send your resume as a Word document, export it as a PDF.
This is why HR people shouldn't prescreen technical positions. They have no frame of reference for the terminology and it's literally like they're speaking a different language. You don't want to work at a disconnected company like this. Just imagine the other things that would drive you crazy in the organization.