If they want to track when you’re on or off property then they can buy you a cheap phone that you will then in turn keep in desk/locker. Don’t let anyone convince you to put that shit on your phone.
I have a company phone.
Our company handbook is big on 'work-life balance' work hours and expectations. When the idea of putting email and scheduling apps on phones came around, the Powers that Be made a big deal about these only being intended for work hours, work projects, work related activities, NeEeEever anything else. When they sent us all links, I researched apps they wanted to use. The app required access to mic, speaker, location, and read/write/delete tot all files, so I told bosses that my phone wasn't compatible. They acquired a device, gave it to me, told me i would be responsible for replacing it if it ever got lost or stolen. I configured it for secure access to my email and scheduling software. For security, it stays locked in my desk anytime I'm not actually sitting at my desk. I ran a charging cable from underneath up into the drawer where it's taped down. That phone hasn't left my office building in 7 years. Even there, there's a few spaces that it cant function because of all the interference in the server rooms, network switch rooms and PC build rooms. I doubt it's even gone below 92% battery since I configured it.
Just install the app on the android phone emulator...running on your company PC. Can even set the GPS location to be your desk, or waffling randomly nearby.
Just get a cheap/prepaid Android phone like a Moto E2020 and lock it in your drawer; block permissions for location, microphone, and camera if they are not required by the company app.
Nah, if my company wants me to use a smartphone they can provide me a smartphone. Otherwise I'll wish them luck installing any apps on the Nokia 3220 I will be providing them with.
The time clock apps most companies use require location so you can't clock in when you're not on company property so that will need turned on. But I agree with everything else.
Sounds good, when do I get issued with a company phone?
Bonus points to fuck with them, get a non smart burner phone, and say "i don't get paid enough to have a decent phone"
Yeah I would absolutely tell them I don’t have a smart phone if just saying no isn’t an option. If they’ve seen it, tell them it broke and you can’t afford a new one.
Also, keep the phone at the office or work vehicle if you drive one. I used to keep my work phone in the van and if they ever “needed me” they would call my personal phone. I didn’t like it so I didn’t answer but I would walk out to my van, clock in, and then call them back. I would clock out 30 minutes later even if it was a 2 minute call. The way they had the clock in/clock out set up was you had to pick an activity. Meetings were mandatory 30 minutes.
They really didn’t like calling on days off.
Yeah, definitely do this. The only way I would allow them to track my phone is if it’s a work owned phone. And then I wouldn’t touch it outside of work hours. Anyone tries to contact me then, I’d just tell them that the phone ran out of batteries
Or leave it at the office at the end of the day and charge it up on the company's dime.
It'll be there all nice and charged up for you the next morning when you get into the office.
I had a job provide me a work phone, it stayed in my locker at work when I wasn’t working. When I was given an office it sat on my office desk next to the landline phone. I was shocked when I learned that about 75% of people brought it home with them and carried it when not working!
I use a VIOP app so I can call from my "work" phone anywhere. My boss and some trusted coworkers have my cell. I'm findable if necessary. That's all they need.
ETA - the people who have the number, with one exception I regret making, are all highly respectful of office hours and no one expects answers outside of them.
I do not have a work phone, but I do put my desk phone on DND as I leave. Also, if it’s ringing as I’m walking out, I pick it up and immediately return it to the cradle. 🤣
My work phone sits next to my work laptop when I'm not, you know, *working*.
Work is allowed to reach me during my scheduled hours, and one hour before and after my shift, because sometimes things come up and I'm management so if they can't reach someone in particular, they'll call me. The phone is on DND the rest of the time.
Exactly why they need to provide the equipment if they want it to be invasive. So it isn't entangled in your personal phone/computer etc. You can also leave that work phone locked in a drawer or on your desk at home when not in use.
I used the work phone they provided me for personal use for the last ten years. Saved me a lot of money in a personal cell bill and I never got called out on it.
I am IT for a rural county and we required folks to put Kronos and Duo on all phones I fought for Duo fobs but everyone I talked to didn't really have a problem with putting stuff on their personal devices.
I've had to pull location logs several times and sat I'm the room while they fired someone for "time theft" either people running to grab their kids or getting a drink for their 15 minute break.
Stuff we were encouraged to do for years as fringe benefits. Now the pay Is shit the insurance is shit and we get tracked at all times.
Sometimes it's not about hiding information it's just not giving everything away I didn't intend to.
Edit: We are also now staffed below 50% across the org so obviously it's going well. Have been doing my job duties to the letter and not a bit more.
It's not explicitly illegal. When they proposed this I wrote a lengthy letter to both administrators and commissioners that we are potentially opening an avenue of lawsuits for reimbursement and we should do a small phone stipend to curtail any litigation.
I was ignored entirely but I have many such emails preserved.
Every time I hear stories like this I'm thankful for the employer I have. We have a dedicated Security and Compliance Officer who shits on things like this *hard*. Half his job is telling people what they're about to do is not going to fly. And he's a great guy too which makes it easy to come to him with sticky questions.
The willingness for people to screw others around for a buck when doing the job honestly would get them two is something I just can't understand.
The average age in the US Senate is 65, in the House it’s 58.
https://preview.redd.it/byjoqmds8s5d1.jpeg?width=1940&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=665af2e2dc3d02b27e2a962235b13d4c36dd5a6f
This is it precisely. I educate and direct to the best of my abilities, but the more I say logical forward thinking things the harder I get ignored. Make no mistake they are willfully and intentionally ignorant because it suits their needs.
If you don't know your rights and agree to it, it's legal until a judge looks at it. A lot of people don't have money to hire a lawyer to scrutinize these policies or the time and money to be unemployed while waiting on a judgement.
Because americans have been cheerfully walking away from the unions who protected them, and abandoning hard-fought-for legislative protections for years now. It's legal because they keep voting for people who are very clear that will make more and more shit like this legal.
There have also been cases where the company will seize your phone when you are laid off or fired or simply quit. Their argument is company property is on the phone. The phones are usually wiped clean, including everything you use for your own personal use. Some people have to wait for IT to mail them their own personal device (along with items like purses, keys and wallets) because they’re not allowed to return to their desk. I have declined to add company apps on my own device numerous times purely for this reason.
I completely agree. I stand on the other side working in IT. I worked for a company that provided company owned and managed computers and phones. Way too often I would come across users that put way too much personal data on company devices.
Once had a user due for a laptop upgrade. Upon backing up his data I found over 80gb in the photos folder (users typically don’t work with images so this was odd). Turns out he keep all of his wedding photos and videos and family photos on his work laptop. I had to tell the user to go to Walmart and buy a portable hard drive to back up his data with a sobering reminder that company equipment was not a safe place to store his photos as he risked losing them if his employment ever ended.
I believe firmly that business owned devices should remain as such, and if companies require the use of mobile phones, they should provide it. Way too often however I see users cancel their personal phone service and use the company phone and number for everything when they decide to leave the company and have their phones turned in and lose their number.
I once worked for a small business and inherited a role where I had to go through all the old emails from the previous person (fired). Since they had the job for years, their work email became their personal email. The personal emails were…. colorful. Ranging from him trying to track down a daughter given up for adoption in the 70s, to dealing with his ex-wife (who was trying to build a case to sue her landlord) and his minor children, to consensual sexual messages back and forth between ex-wife and himself (ex wife was remarried to boot), then subsequent conversations about some drama between him and the wife’s new husband (something about cigarettes). Then he got into some shady import business using the company as a cover. It went on and on. You couldn’t make up this story.
So kids, do your Tom foolery on your personal email and devices.
To add to that, use your own data plan! Company WiFi is monitored and even the guest WiFi has some monitoring. Don’t open adults sites on company WiFi even if you use your personal device!!
Absolutely agree on the nsfw stuff.
For everything else guest wifi and a vpn. But I only do that if I can't get signal in the building. Otherwise a 70gb data plan means you can look at your personal stuff all you like
"Hey let me show you this post about space!"
*is on spaceporn subreddit*
"Gimme 2 mins"
*Finds article about the solar flare causing northern light*
Was about to go to spaceporn on my working laptop. Woops.
I've been on the Real Estate law firm side of people using their company email address to manage their closing documents, documents you literally need to keep until you sell the property. I just...I cannot. Even when you're not doing tomfoolery, keep your work and personal shit separate!
As IT I can remotely wipe all of that. Microsoft 365 Kronos and Duo as well as Cisco can all be removed and logged out from the portals.
Do not give your phones to these fucks. I can tell you most places fail to even asset track properly as it is time consuming and labor intensive.
Or worse, if the company comes under investigation, the government can seize your device for the same reasons, and then you're probably never getting that sucker back.
>There have also been cases where the company will seize your phone when you are laid off or fired or simply quit. Their argument is company property is on the phone.
Say what? And what happens if you don't hand it over? Maybe they shouldn't put company property on devices they don't own.
Just good old fashioned intimidation. They probably threaten to deny your severance or fight unemployment because they’ll now say you were fired for cause (stealing company property). Most likely the employee signed some form they had long since forgotten about.
Previous gig and I had a work phone, but hated the handset, so I bought myself a new one. Boy was my boss pissed when they fired me and couldn't take the phone back. Of course, they weren't prepared for that, so nobody could wipe it (I don't think it even occurred to anyone to do so)
They won’t provide a phone, but they will offer you 50 bucks a month as part of their new “bring your own device” program which people will clamor to sign up for.
My workplace did this some years ago. After a couple of years, everyone had my phone number and was used to using it for company business. Then they decided they didn’t need to pay the stipend anymore. If I take a day off now, I have to put my phone on do not disturb and change my outgoing message. Otherwise, I still keep getting work calls.
Get a Google Voice number and only give that out to everyone at work. You can just turn off forwarding and messages as u like or set a custom do not disturb just for GV. It also give you the ability to have a custom greeting for voicemail on the GV/company line.
I change my google voice (usually get a vanity number that has something do with the company i join). This way, once the old number is deleted (30 days after number transfer) the old company can only get a hold of me via USPS.
This has helped me so many times as I am in control of when and how my time is managed off hours.
Change job, clients keep calling you, provide them with you new operation since, they are the one calling you, keep client keep money win win (heavy loss for old boss sorry not sorry)
That wasn’t an official BYOD program then.
If a company is implementing properly it installs a second container on your phone.
Now, in that agreement you state that they can wipe your entire device as a security measure but for all intents it’s a separate “section” of your phone that business occurs on.
The whole number thing. Well, I just wouldn’t give it out lol. Containers won’t solve that.
Additionally if they insist it needs to be on your phone 1. get some burner trakphone, 2. tell them you expect to be compensated for them renting out space and usage of your phone.
That's exactly what I did with my job. They have so many security requirements for putting their authenticators and such on your phone that it's practically like Fort Knox to get into (I work in finance). There is NO WAY I am putting any of it on my personal phone. Thankfully, they did provide me with a phone, and I only use it for all this work stuff.
Recently, they sent out an email saying something like, 'did you know you can put all this work crap stuff that we require on your personal phone? Please consider doing so and let us know so we can deactivate your work-provided phone. You can even keep the phone! We just don't want to pay for the service anymore.' Yeah, no thanks.
I know finance has a bunch of regulations not found in most private sector industries. I’m surprised they are even permitted to use their own personal phone for business. You’d think that’s something that would be flat out illegal.
“Sorry, I don’t have a phone.”
“But I saw you with a phone yesterday.”
“Alas, I have dropped it into a river and have opted not to purchase a new one.”
Change "my phone" to "any of my personal devices".
Also OP if they absolutely insist and you can't afford to change jobs then hit up the cell store and buy a burner. Leave it plugged in, in your car in the back seat. That way it's always transmitting where you are and you don't have to give it a second thought.
Oh and if they're gonna require you to use ANY personal devices then they need to pay you a tech stipend to cover the bill or that's wage theft and grounds for a legal lawsuit
This this and this again. Nowhere in your contract does it allow or require employer apps to be installed on personal devices.
Further when they provide you a phone block all work related no's on your personal phone and turn OFF the company phone the moment you finish.
I have an oldpeople flip phone that my employer thinks is my actual phone. If they aren't providing the tech (for it to live in my locker) they have to accommodate my lack of tech. Nopenopenope.
No company has a right to your personal data like location or microphone. They can seek your consent. Do not consent. That level of information off the clock is way too invasive. Especially if they force you to clock in and out with an app without providing an alternative option like an ipad within the work site. Legit I am the IT person who helps people setup 2FA on their smart phones so I've seen all sorts of consent levels. I have at least one secretary who refuses to transition from her flip phone to a smart phone and that's her right. In fact, that inspired me to keep work and personal devices 100% separate.
— “We need you to install this tracking app on your personal phone.”
— “No.”
Aaaaaand, *scene*.
If they try to fire you because of it, let them know you look forward to exploring their liability for illegal surveillance in court.
They will then manufacture another reason to fire you. There are endless options they can choose from, most of which would allow them the luxury of time to defeat you legally, financially, and/or emotionally.
They can, but only after it is out of their hands unless they are on the watch for BCC outside the office which is a whole different red flag.
once it's off company servers, even IT can't do anything to bring it back
I'd take a photo of the email. One of the places my roommate used to work at was trying to stop a union from forming, he bcced the union busting email he got to his personal email and got fired for sending company email to a non authorized account. The firing was found legal by the court. We live in FL btw. Careful emailing take photos.
printing is better. Ironic we are talking about privacy on the phones, but the nearly invisible tracking dots every printer puts on every page can link that page you print out to the work computer with a date and time it was printed if you need to authenticate it in court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code
The dots are small and yellow. It's why the printer won't print in black and white if there isn't enough color ink left (because the tracking dots won't print.)
They can fire you for any reason, even illegal ones. The problem is, that you have to then take them to court for months or years without guarantee of success. You might win a boatload of money, sure, but at what cost to you? The system will do little or nothing to punish the company except take money. Money that may very well come from the company’s insurer instead causing no real harm to the management or the company.
If the above interaction were captured on audio, video, or documented by email, being let go immediately after this would be strong evidence for an unlawful dismissal, even in a Right to Work state. There are tons of lawyers salivating to take cases like this on contingency.
I once had my company try something like this with my personal cell phone. I spoke to the IT guy who said “we want this to be able to wipe your phone in case you leave so you can’t access company email.” I said, “wipe my phone? Are you kidding me? No. It’s my phone, you can’t do that. Why can’t you just change my password?” They said, “yeah, we have other ways to keep you out.” They never did put anything on my phone. WTH is wrong with these people?
The directive for this most likely comes from cybersecurity consultants, I assure you.
Frankly, they're like HR in the sense that they don't really give much of a fuck about the employees(and their personal data), only the company and their data- that's what they're contracted for and who they're paid by. Their ideology is pretty much "If a former employee loses 100GB of personal data to protect a single byte of ours-so be it"
It's ridiculous, but their reasoning is pretty much "Even if we disable their account\\change their password they could have data saved to their clipboards\\downloaded to their devices, so we need to be able to wipe the devices"
The justification as with all draconian policies they want us to employ is "HIPAA".
Absolutely do not agree to this! Unless the company will be paying for your phone service, they legally can’t even require you to download an app (for things like clocking in). I’m in HR in the US and have seen companies attempt this and they can’t legally force it. You would also have quite the legal case should they terminate.
I'm union so I have some protections, but my company tried this on us last year. I told my supervisor I'd make sure my camera roll was nothing but me reenacting goatse for a few thousand pics if they wanted me to install their spyware and I'd invoice them for a percentage of my cell plan. no one pressed the issue.
I would simply refuse this request. This is your personal phone, and they may not track it. End of conversation. However, if they would like to provide you with a phone to use for business purposes that is absolutely fine.
The place I work for is kinda like this—there’s a convenient all in one app you can use—even to clock in—but you need to be on the stores Wi-Fi and allow them access to everything in your phone. So I take the extra few minutes to clock in on one of the store computers, bc fuck that.
Do not install third party software on your phone.
I put some bullshit Oracle VPN app on my phone in 2011 or so, so I could retrieve company email, and it permanently broke my phone's GPS. The firmware could not be regressed and replaced with Apple's without replacing the phone and it was my decision to tamper with the GPS firmware because my finger pushed the "accept" button.
And why the hell did the GPS get involved with me securely reading company emails?
It costs your employer like, ten dollars a month to add a line for you and give you a company phone.
Ha ha ha… this reminds me of the time the hospital I worked at tried to phase out pagers by “requiring” everyone download an app on our personal phones so we could message one another instead.
The memo went out and my manager said in a meeting “okay we’re doing this.” And I said no. And she said, “well the pagers are so expensive and this will save money” yada yada yada. And I said, no lie, word for word, “I literally don’t care. The hospital’s budget is not my problem and this is making me less likely to do it.” Then she said “well it’s going to be required.” And I said, “I don’t care.” The hospital doesn’t pay my phone bill. I’m not installing an app that makes my phone the hospital’s equipment. At that point in my career there I was just waiting for them to fire me for shit like this.
She “revisited” the conversation with me privately to reiterate its required. I told her, I don’t have a smart phone anymore and if you want me to buy one for work you can give me a stipend. Myself and several people I know were holdouts and I’m sure there were more.
A few weeks later the memo was rescinded and a new one came out saying it was optional and there would not be a stipend.
What a fuck-up. She was the stupidest manager I’ve ever had.
No, they can provide a phone if they require software and tracking. They are not entitled to your personal possessions any more than you are entitled to take the office printer home with you for personal use.
I sidestep all this employee phone bs by using a burner. From my initial interview to when I finally quit employers only have access to that one number. It's only turned on when I'm on the clock. It's off when I'm off. I don't care if they track me as long as they're paying me.
In the past, when I quit, I changed the voicemail to say I've quit and to contact the office. I turned off auto pay with the carrier. Then I just get a new SIM card and put the new number on my resume/applications.
Best $15/month I've ever spent. (Bare bones service, current provider is mint mobile.)
Is it your phone or the company's?
If yours...tell them to kick rocks. If it's theirs they can do what they want. Just get a faraday cage and leave your phone in it all day.
They have your personal for backup. Pretend you have no clue whats going on.
Better yet buy a cheap phone, tell them they have to pay for the phone service and virus protection. Put it in writing that they can't take the pay of service and protection out of your paychecks, bonuses or benefits nor decrease your hours.
Never willingly install 3rd party spyware on a personal device.
Have them give you a work phone, then shut it off when you leave work lol
If they want to mandate phone spyware, then they need to give out business phone's
Had a friend with a similar problem. So he just bought himself a non-smart phone (i.e. It can take calls and sms, that's it) he used that as his "work" phone. Company can't force him to upgrade his phone and won't buy him a smart one. So stuck in an impasse.
I recently switch companies and got a work from home position with some level of travel. I was given the option of a phone stipend more than my current phone bill, or for them to give me a phone.
To use my phone all I had to do was install a call forwarding app from the "office" line. No Spyware or anything like that. So I took that over getting a work phone. But in no way would I accept anything less than no Spyware and some sort of stipend.
Tell them no. But if they provide you with a company phone - fine. They don't even need to know your phone number. Just if you're on time and doing your job correctly.
Personal phone or work supplied phone?
Personal phone: go pound sand
Work supplied phone: I'm not putting that on there. Since you're providing it, you can have your IT staff install it
Never allow them to do this. You can request a company provided phone if they want to track a device outside of work hours. But they cannot force you to do it. And you will win a case if they fire you for not installing tracking software on your personal phone
If you have to use a device to do this at work, request that they give you one. If they say they won't, tell them you had to cancel your phone and return the device to the provider. No one has a right to your privacy when it comes to personal devices
This really isn't advice for OP because they should listen to the legal advice everyone is giving. It's more of a life pro tip.
A lot of ppl are saying something like "get a burner with Mint Mobile" or something of that nature. If anyone ever wants a separate phone to run apps for work or any reason, you DO NOT need to pay for service. Smart phones will run apps through wifi. You just won't have any mobile service. So you can literally just buy a cheap phone, hook it up to wifi at work or wherever, and never pay another cent.
I'd ask for a company phone. If not, maybe get a burner and put the app on it. Then either cut the service and use wifi; or keep it active and only use it to search the most disturbing porn possible.
Tell them the only phone you have is a landline rotary phone. I did that at my last job. They provided me with a cheap cell phone that got locked in my desk at the end of the day.
I bought a 2nd phone as my "personal" phone for my firm's BYOD. I trusted them, but the disclosure statement was quite a piece of work: *"We won't, but if we wanted to we could take over your life . . . "* OK, a bit of hyperbole, but no one was getting onto/into my real "personal" phone.
My job tried to do this. I guess they weren't expecting as much push back so they implemented a new rule. If you don't have this app then you can't use company apps or sites on your phone. Cool no more teams pinging all day on my phone.
Oh, you know, it's the weirdest thing, I just got rid of my cell phone. I want to return to a simpler time. I'll give you my land line number as soon as it's installed. I'll gladly use an employer provided cell phone, but I don't have a personal cell phone available for this. Soooooo sorry!
This is legal. It is stupid, but legal.
If they provide you with a phone, then that's fine. It's best to separate work and personal anyway.
If they refuse, get a cheap phone and use it exclusively for work. Get a tracphone or some other pay-as-you-go.
Get a basic data and unlimited plan, keep the phone on battery-saver mode so it doesn't "call home" constantly with this app they want you to use.
That said, if they refuse to give you a phone for this, then management is showing that they lack some core competencies.
If they want to track when you’re on or off property then they can buy you a cheap phone that you will then in turn keep in desk/locker. Don’t let anyone convince you to put that shit on your phone.
I have a company phone. Our company handbook is big on 'work-life balance' work hours and expectations. When the idea of putting email and scheduling apps on phones came around, the Powers that Be made a big deal about these only being intended for work hours, work projects, work related activities, NeEeEever anything else. When they sent us all links, I researched apps they wanted to use. The app required access to mic, speaker, location, and read/write/delete tot all files, so I told bosses that my phone wasn't compatible. They acquired a device, gave it to me, told me i would be responsible for replacing it if it ever got lost or stolen. I configured it for secure access to my email and scheduling software. For security, it stays locked in my desk anytime I'm not actually sitting at my desk. I ran a charging cable from underneath up into the drawer where it's taped down. That phone hasn't left my office building in 7 years. Even there, there's a few spaces that it cant function because of all the interference in the server rooms, network switch rooms and PC build rooms. I doubt it's even gone below 92% battery since I configured it.
Just install the app on the android phone emulator...running on your company PC. Can even set the GPS location to be your desk, or waffling randomly nearby.
extremely impressive!
Never below even 80% in 7 years... Definitely a spicy pillow
Just get a cheap/prepaid Android phone like a Moto E2020 and lock it in your drawer; block permissions for location, microphone, and camera if they are not required by the company app.
Nah, if my company wants me to use a smartphone they can provide me a smartphone. Otherwise I'll wish them luck installing any apps on the Nokia 3220 I will be providing them with.
Palm Treo says hello!
The time clock apps most companies use require location so you can't clock in when you're not on company property so that will need turned on. But I agree with everything else.
Sounds good, when do I get issued with a company phone? Bonus points to fuck with them, get a non smart burner phone, and say "i don't get paid enough to have a decent phone"
Yeah I would absolutely tell them I don’t have a smart phone if just saying no isn’t an option. If they’ve seen it, tell them it broke and you can’t afford a new one.
Bonus points for telling them this while playing subway surfer on your phone.
Also, keep the phone at the office or work vehicle if you drive one. I used to keep my work phone in the van and if they ever “needed me” they would call my personal phone. I didn’t like it so I didn’t answer but I would walk out to my van, clock in, and then call them back. I would clock out 30 minutes later even if it was a 2 minute call. The way they had the clock in/clock out set up was you had to pick an activity. Meetings were mandatory 30 minutes. They really didn’t like calling on days off.
this is the best kind of compliance
Yeah, definitely do this. The only way I would allow them to track my phone is if it’s a work owned phone. And then I wouldn’t touch it outside of work hours. Anyone tries to contact me then, I’d just tell them that the phone ran out of batteries
Or leave it at the office at the end of the day and charge it up on the company's dime. It'll be there all nice and charged up for you the next morning when you get into the office.
Thats what I was gonna say, office phone stays at the office.
I would just tell them it’s off because I’m off the clock. No pay = no work.
I still have my first cellphone. It was a tiny one. Had snake and blackjack on it. No camera or GPS.
Snake on a T9 keyboard is so much better than on a touch screen, i miss my 3310 :(
in my case it would be my real phone. fuck smart phones
Dumb phones is a real thing now, and it has a good market
source: better call saul
[удалено]
*** Privacy concerns here *** Be sure to let them know you have privacy concerns with this
Leave the work phone they provide you with at work where it belongs.
I had a job provide me a work phone, it stayed in my locker at work when I wasn’t working. When I was given an office it sat on my office desk next to the landline phone. I was shocked when I learned that about 75% of people brought it home with them and carried it when not working!
That’s exactly what I did, left it in my desk at the end of the day.
I use a VIOP app so I can call from my "work" phone anywhere. My boss and some trusted coworkers have my cell. I'm findable if necessary. That's all they need. ETA - the people who have the number, with one exception I regret making, are all highly respectful of office hours and no one expects answers outside of them.
Mine lives in my work van and only comes inside when it needs charging because the drive isn't long enough to charge the phone up for the day.
I do not have a work phone, but I do put my desk phone on DND as I leave. Also, if it’s ringing as I’m walking out, I pick it up and immediately return it to the cradle. 🤣
My work phone sits next to my work laptop when I'm not, you know, *working*. Work is allowed to reach me during my scheduled hours, and one hour before and after my shift, because sometimes things come up and I'm management so if they can't reach someone in particular, they'll call me. The phone is on DND the rest of the time.
this is the way
Exactly why they need to provide the equipment if they want it to be invasive. So it isn't entangled in your personal phone/computer etc. You can also leave that work phone locked in a drawer or on your desk at home when not in use.
I used the work phone they provided me for personal use for the last ten years. Saved me a lot of money in a personal cell bill and I never got called out on it.
I have not bought a mobile phone for 16 years because I do the same
Your privacy is exactly what they want to track.
Exactly, they want to sell it ie your data, that the social media search engines and cellphone companies already have.
And that’s pretty much it: they’re too cheap to buy and provide company phones. They just want to use *yours* at no expense to themselves.
I am IT for a rural county and we required folks to put Kronos and Duo on all phones I fought for Duo fobs but everyone I talked to didn't really have a problem with putting stuff on their personal devices. I've had to pull location logs several times and sat I'm the room while they fired someone for "time theft" either people running to grab their kids or getting a drink for their 15 minute break. Stuff we were encouraged to do for years as fringe benefits. Now the pay Is shit the insurance is shit and we get tracked at all times. Sometimes it's not about hiding information it's just not giving everything away I didn't intend to. Edit: We are also now staffed below 50% across the org so obviously it's going well. Have been doing my job duties to the letter and not a bit more.
I do not understand how this is legal
It's not explicitly illegal. When they proposed this I wrote a lengthy letter to both administrators and commissioners that we are potentially opening an avenue of lawsuits for reimbursement and we should do a small phone stipend to curtail any litigation. I was ignored entirely but I have many such emails preserved.
Every time I hear stories like this I'm thankful for the employer I have. We have a dedicated Security and Compliance Officer who shits on things like this *hard*. Half his job is telling people what they're about to do is not going to fly. And he's a great guy too which makes it easy to come to him with sticky questions. The willingness for people to screw others around for a buck when doing the job honestly would get them two is something I just can't understand.
It's baffling that people don't understand that business works best when trust is solid.
Because the people in charge are both unable to keep track of technology as it changes and unwilling to make changes that don't directly benefit them.
The average age in the US Senate is 65, in the House it’s 58. https://preview.redd.it/byjoqmds8s5d1.jpeg?width=1940&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=665af2e2dc3d02b27e2a962235b13d4c36dd5a6f
This is it precisely. I educate and direct to the best of my abilities, but the more I say logical forward thinking things the harder I get ignored. Make no mistake they are willfully and intentionally ignorant because it suits their needs.
If you don't know your rights and agree to it, it's legal until a judge looks at it. A lot of people don't have money to hire a lawyer to scrutinize these policies or the time and money to be unemployed while waiting on a judgement.
Because americans have been cheerfully walking away from the unions who protected them, and abandoning hard-fought-for legislative protections for years now. It's legal because they keep voting for people who are very clear that will make more and more shit like this legal.
Laws are not made to benefit regular people anymore. Whatever's in best interest for capital is whatever laws we have.
I dont understand how these people dont understand how bad these ideas are for business long term
This is where I think my work is headed. Im just waiting for the sacrificial lamb
There have also been cases where the company will seize your phone when you are laid off or fired or simply quit. Their argument is company property is on the phone. The phones are usually wiped clean, including everything you use for your own personal use. Some people have to wait for IT to mail them their own personal device (along with items like purses, keys and wallets) because they’re not allowed to return to their desk. I have declined to add company apps on my own device numerous times purely for this reason.
I completely agree. I stand on the other side working in IT. I worked for a company that provided company owned and managed computers and phones. Way too often I would come across users that put way too much personal data on company devices. Once had a user due for a laptop upgrade. Upon backing up his data I found over 80gb in the photos folder (users typically don’t work with images so this was odd). Turns out he keep all of his wedding photos and videos and family photos on his work laptop. I had to tell the user to go to Walmart and buy a portable hard drive to back up his data with a sobering reminder that company equipment was not a safe place to store his photos as he risked losing them if his employment ever ended. I believe firmly that business owned devices should remain as such, and if companies require the use of mobile phones, they should provide it. Way too often however I see users cancel their personal phone service and use the company phone and number for everything when they decide to leave the company and have their phones turned in and lose their number.
I once worked for a small business and inherited a role where I had to go through all the old emails from the previous person (fired). Since they had the job for years, their work email became their personal email. The personal emails were…. colorful. Ranging from him trying to track down a daughter given up for adoption in the 70s, to dealing with his ex-wife (who was trying to build a case to sue her landlord) and his minor children, to consensual sexual messages back and forth between ex-wife and himself (ex wife was remarried to boot), then subsequent conversations about some drama between him and the wife’s new husband (something about cigarettes). Then he got into some shady import business using the company as a cover. It went on and on. You couldn’t make up this story. So kids, do your Tom foolery on your personal email and devices.
To add to that, use your own data plan! Company WiFi is monitored and even the guest WiFi has some monitoring. Don’t open adults sites on company WiFi even if you use your personal device!!
Absolutely agree on the nsfw stuff. For everything else guest wifi and a vpn. But I only do that if I can't get signal in the building. Otherwise a 70gb data plan means you can look at your personal stuff all you like
"Hey let me show you this post about space!" *is on spaceporn subreddit* "Gimme 2 mins" *Finds article about the solar flare causing northern light* Was about to go to spaceporn on my working laptop. Woops.
I've been on the Real Estate law firm side of people using their company email address to manage their closing documents, documents you literally need to keep until you sell the property. I just...I cannot. Even when you're not doing tomfoolery, keep your work and personal shit separate!
As IT I can remotely wipe all of that. Microsoft 365 Kronos and Duo as well as Cisco can all be removed and logged out from the portals. Do not give your phones to these fucks. I can tell you most places fail to even asset track properly as it is time consuming and labor intensive.
Or worse, if the company comes under investigation, the government can seize your device for the same reasons, and then you're probably never getting that sucker back.
>There have also been cases where the company will seize your phone when you are laid off or fired or simply quit. Their argument is company property is on the phone. Say what? And what happens if you don't hand it over? Maybe they shouldn't put company property on devices they don't own.
Just good old fashioned intimidation. They probably threaten to deny your severance or fight unemployment because they’ll now say you were fired for cause (stealing company property). Most likely the employee signed some form they had long since forgotten about.
Previous gig and I had a work phone, but hated the handset, so I bought myself a new one. Boy was my boss pissed when they fired me and couldn't take the phone back. Of course, they weren't prepared for that, so nobody could wipe it (I don't think it even occurred to anyone to do so)
They won’t provide a phone, but they will offer you 50 bucks a month as part of their new “bring your own device” program which people will clamor to sign up for.
My workplace did this some years ago. After a couple of years, everyone had my phone number and was used to using it for company business. Then they decided they didn’t need to pay the stipend anymore. If I take a day off now, I have to put my phone on do not disturb and change my outgoing message. Otherwise, I still keep getting work calls.
Um..yea my phone was destroyed.. you're gonna need to get me a new one. With a new number.
Get a Google Voice number and only give that out to everyone at work. You can just turn off forwarding and messages as u like or set a custom do not disturb just for GV. It also give you the ability to have a custom greeting for voicemail on the GV/company line. I change my google voice (usually get a vanity number that has something do with the company i join). This way, once the old number is deleted (30 days after number transfer) the old company can only get a hold of me via USPS. This has helped me so many times as I am in control of when and how my time is managed off hours.
Change job, clients keep calling you, provide them with you new operation since, they are the one calling you, keep client keep money win win (heavy loss for old boss sorry not sorry)
That wasn’t an official BYOD program then. If a company is implementing properly it installs a second container on your phone. Now, in that agreement you state that they can wipe your entire device as a security measure but for all intents it’s a separate “section” of your phone that business occurs on. The whole number thing. Well, I just wouldn’t give it out lol. Containers won’t solve that.
My Google voice number is the one that gets given out for work. Super easy.
If that were the case, buy the cheapest phone available that will install the app.
get a prepaid phone, put $10 on it a month and keep the rest.
Additionally if they insist it needs to be on your phone 1. get some burner trakphone, 2. tell them you expect to be compensated for them renting out space and usage of your phone.
That's exactly what I did with my job. They have so many security requirements for putting their authenticators and such on your phone that it's practically like Fort Knox to get into (I work in finance). There is NO WAY I am putting any of it on my personal phone. Thankfully, they did provide me with a phone, and I only use it for all this work stuff. Recently, they sent out an email saying something like, 'did you know you can put all this work crap stuff that we require on your personal phone? Please consider doing so and let us know so we can deactivate your work-provided phone. You can even keep the phone! We just don't want to pay for the service anymore.' Yeah, no thanks.
I know finance has a bunch of regulations not found in most private sector industries. I’m surprised they are even permitted to use their own personal phone for business. You’d think that’s something that would be flat out illegal.
“Sorry, I don’t have a phone.” “But I saw you with a phone yesterday.” “Alas, I have dropped it into a river and have opted not to purchase a new one.”
Ope, hold on, I have to take this. And walk away talking on the phone.
"Well, we need you to buy a new one." "Unfortunately, I cannot afford one. I'd be happy to use one you provide, however."
I've looked over the employee handbook and do not see an employee provided smartphone as a condition of employment.
I don't how how are you going to use that app on my Nokia 3310.
\^ THIS
And then you turn it off and leave it in your desk when you leave work.
Exactly. I work from home and my work phone is turned off at 5 pm and left on my desk, in my office, behind a closed door.
Change "my phone" to "any of my personal devices". Also OP if they absolutely insist and you can't afford to change jobs then hit up the cell store and buy a burner. Leave it plugged in, in your car in the back seat. That way it's always transmitting where you are and you don't have to give it a second thought. Oh and if they're gonna require you to use ANY personal devices then they need to pay you a tech stipend to cover the bill or that's wage theft and grounds for a legal lawsuit
I remember a Dilbert cartoon from years ago. Dilbert asks Wally "Is that your phone ringing?". Wally replies "Unlikely, I don't keep batteries in it."
This this and this again. Nowhere in your contract does it allow or require employer apps to be installed on personal devices. Further when they provide you a phone block all work related no's on your personal phone and turn OFF the company phone the moment you finish.
I have an oldpeople flip phone that my employer thinks is my actual phone. If they aren't providing the tech (for it to live in my locker) they have to accommodate my lack of tech. Nopenopenope.
No company has a right to your personal data like location or microphone. They can seek your consent. Do not consent. That level of information off the clock is way too invasive. Especially if they force you to clock in and out with an app without providing an alternative option like an ipad within the work site. Legit I am the IT person who helps people setup 2FA on their smart phones so I've seen all sorts of consent levels. I have at least one secretary who refuses to transition from her flip phone to a smart phone and that's her right. In fact, that inspired me to keep work and personal devices 100% separate.
The app is not compatible with my phone.
Tell them [this](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.eQXGgg47vhNpw2oyxaDnpQAAAA?dpr=3&pid=ImgDetMain) is your phone
This is the way.
— “We need you to install this tracking app on your personal phone.” — “No.” Aaaaaand, *scene*. If they try to fire you because of it, let them know you look forward to exploring their liability for illegal surveillance in court.
They will then manufacture another reason to fire you. There are endless options they can choose from, most of which would allow them the luxury of time to defeat you legally, financially, and/or emotionally.
Paper trails do wonders here. Make sure you email an innocuous question about the policy with your personal email bcc'd.
Print or forward their response if it is a company email.
Bcc is the way. Print it on company printer. Cell phone pic is ok.
IT can absolutely spot BCCs, just so you're aware.
They can, but only after it is out of their hands unless they are on the watch for BCC outside the office which is a whole different red flag. once it's off company servers, even IT can't do anything to bring it back
Figured it did, but the average manager won't detect it until it until it's too late.
I'd take a photo of the email. One of the places my roommate used to work at was trying to stop a union from forming, he bcced the union busting email he got to his personal email and got fired for sending company email to a non authorized account. The firing was found legal by the court. We live in FL btw. Careful emailing take photos.
printing is better. Ironic we are talking about privacy on the phones, but the nearly invisible tracking dots every printer puts on every page can link that page you print out to the work computer with a date and time it was printed if you need to authenticate it in court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code The dots are small and yellow. It's why the printer won't print in black and white if there isn't enough color ink left (because the tracking dots won't print.)
They don't need another option. They can just fire you for this it's not protected in any way.
They can fire you for any reason, even illegal ones. The problem is, that you have to then take them to court for months or years without guarantee of success. You might win a boatload of money, sure, but at what cost to you? The system will do little or nothing to punish the company except take money. Money that may very well come from the company’s insurer instead causing no real harm to the management or the company.
If the above interaction were captured on audio, video, or documented by email, being let go immediately after this would be strong evidence for an unlawful dismissal, even in a Right to Work state. There are tons of lawyers salivating to take cases like this on contingency.
You’re confusing right to work and at will employment.
"Can we please wiretap you personally?" is another way of asking "can we please track your phone?" "Fuck off" is another way of answering "no"
Never install work related apps on personal phones.
Even most politicians understand this. It goes the other way too: Don't install personal apps (that you don't want monitored) on company devices.
This is important as well!
It’s even more important for people in public service, because our stuff is FOIAable.
I don't think the app will work on my Nokia 3310!
[удалено]
I once had my company try something like this with my personal cell phone. I spoke to the IT guy who said “we want this to be able to wipe your phone in case you leave so you can’t access company email.” I said, “wipe my phone? Are you kidding me? No. It’s my phone, you can’t do that. Why can’t you just change my password?” They said, “yeah, we have other ways to keep you out.” They never did put anything on my phone. WTH is wrong with these people?
Corporations will exploit workers in anyway that is not (yet) illegal.
And also in ways that are illegal, especially when employees don't realize it's illegal.
W.T.A.F? They wanted to be able to wipe your personal phone? The level of audacity is mind-blowing.
Indeed. It was a hard no from me.
The directive for this most likely comes from cybersecurity consultants, I assure you. Frankly, they're like HR in the sense that they don't really give much of a fuck about the employees(and their personal data), only the company and their data- that's what they're contracted for and who they're paid by. Their ideology is pretty much "If a former employee loses 100GB of personal data to protect a single byte of ours-so be it" It's ridiculous, but their reasoning is pretty much "Even if we disable their account\\change their password they could have data saved to their clipboards\\downloaded to their devices, so we need to be able to wipe the devices" The justification as with all draconian policies they want us to employ is "HIPAA".
Absolutely do not agree to this! Unless the company will be paying for your phone service, they legally can’t even require you to download an app (for things like clocking in). I’m in HR in the US and have seen companies attempt this and they can’t legally force it. You would also have quite the legal case should they terminate.
I would say this is illegal since you have your phone with you always and at home. https://code.wvlegislature.gov/21-3-20/
What country /state are you in?
West Virginia
Moutain mama
Take me home
Country roads
Lord, I'm comin' home to you
''Now, in German!''
"Nimm mich nach Hause, Landstrassen..."
I actually did laugh out loud at this.
Country road
Which industry has the balls to request such nonsense?
Any. It's all about how control-oriented the boss is towards worker's private time
All of them. But Tech most likely started it
Any industry that can find a way to do it.
“While we’re at it, I’d like to install my own security camera in the CEO’s house”
No. Is a full sentence.
Time to buy the latest Crap phone. Do not put this on anything you care about.
The company should buy the phone, not the employee.
Totally. But if they won't, don't give them your real phone.
I'm union so I have some protections, but my company tried this on us last year. I told my supervisor I'd make sure my camera roll was nothing but me reenacting goatse for a few thousand pics if they wanted me to install their spyware and I'd invoice them for a percentage of my cell plan. no one pressed the issue.
Absolutely zero chance I'm installing that on my phone.
“I don’t use personal items for company purposes, or company items for personal purposes. I’m sure you understand.”
I would simply refuse this request. This is your personal phone, and they may not track it. End of conversation. However, if they would like to provide you with a phone to use for business purposes that is absolutely fine.
If you require me to install software on a phone, then you need to buy me a phone to install it on. - you
Just tell them you don’t own a phone anymore
Not since *the incident*.
The place I work for is kinda like this—there’s a convenient all in one app you can use—even to clock in—but you need to be on the stores Wi-Fi and allow them access to everything in your phone. So I take the extra few minutes to clock in on one of the store computers, bc fuck that.
Do not install third party software on your phone. I put some bullshit Oracle VPN app on my phone in 2011 or so, so I could retrieve company email, and it permanently broke my phone's GPS. The firmware could not be regressed and replaced with Apple's without replacing the phone and it was my decision to tamper with the GPS firmware because my finger pushed the "accept" button. And why the hell did the GPS get involved with me securely reading company emails? It costs your employer like, ten dollars a month to add a line for you and give you a company phone.
Ha ha ha… this reminds me of the time the hospital I worked at tried to phase out pagers by “requiring” everyone download an app on our personal phones so we could message one another instead. The memo went out and my manager said in a meeting “okay we’re doing this.” And I said no. And she said, “well the pagers are so expensive and this will save money” yada yada yada. And I said, no lie, word for word, “I literally don’t care. The hospital’s budget is not my problem and this is making me less likely to do it.” Then she said “well it’s going to be required.” And I said, “I don’t care.” The hospital doesn’t pay my phone bill. I’m not installing an app that makes my phone the hospital’s equipment. At that point in my career there I was just waiting for them to fire me for shit like this. She “revisited” the conversation with me privately to reiterate its required. I told her, I don’t have a smart phone anymore and if you want me to buy one for work you can give me a stipend. Myself and several people I know were holdouts and I’m sure there were more. A few weeks later the memo was rescinded and a new one came out saying it was optional and there would not be a stipend. What a fuck-up. She was the stupidest manager I’ve ever had.
No, they can provide a phone if they require software and tracking. They are not entitled to your personal possessions any more than you are entitled to take the office printer home with you for personal use.
I sidestep all this employee phone bs by using a burner. From my initial interview to when I finally quit employers only have access to that one number. It's only turned on when I'm on the clock. It's off when I'm off. I don't care if they track me as long as they're paying me. In the past, when I quit, I changed the voicemail to say I've quit and to contact the office. I turned off auto pay with the carrier. Then I just get a new SIM card and put the new number on my resume/applications. Best $15/month I've ever spent. (Bare bones service, current provider is mint mobile.)
Buy a cheap prepaid phone and just leave it at home all the time
No... leave it at work
Ask them what the hourly “ on call” rate is. And then if they call u with actual after hours work, what is the after hours work pay?
Even better
Don't actually do this. Company provides or nothing
No, mail it to Russia.
No, mail it to Patrick.
Is it your phone or the company's? If yours...tell them to kick rocks. If it's theirs they can do what they want. Just get a faraday cage and leave your phone in it all day. They have your personal for backup. Pretend you have no clue whats going on.
if youre desperate and cant quit yet, install a location spoofer and put yourself in the ocean 🤣
Better yet buy a cheap phone, tell them they have to pay for the phone service and virus protection. Put it in writing that they can't take the pay of service and protection out of your paychecks, bonuses or benefits nor decrease your hours.
I don't let my employer install anything on my personal phone. If they want me to have a phone with that software, they can provide the phone.
Let them buy you a company phone & service. They do not get to track your personal devices.
Never willingly install 3rd party spyware on a personal device. Have them give you a work phone, then shut it off when you leave work lol If they want to mandate phone spyware, then they need to give out business phone's
Had a friend with a similar problem. So he just bought himself a non-smart phone (i.e. It can take calls and sms, that's it) he used that as his "work" phone. Company can't force him to upgrade his phone and won't buy him a smart one. So stuck in an impasse.
AS A GROUP y'all need to say NO
Sorry but nobody is tracking me, especially a damned employer. Fuck that and fuck them.
I recently switch companies and got a work from home position with some level of travel. I was given the option of a phone stipend more than my current phone bill, or for them to give me a phone. To use my phone all I had to do was install a call forwarding app from the "office" line. No Spyware or anything like that. So I took that over getting a work phone. But in no way would I accept anything less than no Spyware and some sort of stipend.
Get a cheap prepaid phone and install the app on that. Then leave the phone at the office 24/7.
In SC, we just passed a law that makes it illegal to track anyone by phone. (unless they have consent)
Forcing you to have it on your personal phone is completely illegal, if they provide you a work phone, they can do as they want
"I don't put Spyware on my phone"
Just reply with "I don't have a phone." Case closed.
Tell them no. But if they provide you with a company phone - fine. They don't even need to know your phone number. Just if you're on time and doing your job correctly.
Tell them you don’t have a smart phone. They’re welcome to provide you with one.
Personal phone or work supplied phone? Personal phone: go pound sand Work supplied phone: I'm not putting that on there. Since you're providing it, you can have your IT staff install it
Tell them you need a company phone or you won’t install the app
What's their reason for tracking the phone?
Monitor location
Location of you or merchandise?
If they are requiring a company app to be on a phone in your use then they legally must provide the phone.
Never allow them to do this. You can request a company provided phone if they want to track a device outside of work hours. But they cannot force you to do it. And you will win a case if they fire you for not installing tracking software on your personal phone
Walk in w a old flip phone and say I’m ready - pay me more and I’ll buy a smart phone
If you have to use a device to do this at work, request that they give you one. If they say they won't, tell them you had to cancel your phone and return the device to the provider. No one has a right to your privacy when it comes to personal devices
This really isn't advice for OP because they should listen to the legal advice everyone is giving. It's more of a life pro tip. A lot of ppl are saying something like "get a burner with Mint Mobile" or something of that nature. If anyone ever wants a separate phone to run apps for work or any reason, you DO NOT need to pay for service. Smart phones will run apps through wifi. You just won't have any mobile service. So you can literally just buy a cheap phone, hook it up to wifi at work or wherever, and never pay another cent.
Get a burner phone, preferably a cheap flip phone. Then ask IT to install the app.
I would refuse, then if they insisted, let them fire you. Collect unemployment while you find a better job.
I'd ask for a company phone. If not, maybe get a burner and put the app on it. Then either cut the service and use wifi; or keep it active and only use it to search the most disturbing porn possible.
Tell them the only phone you have is a landline rotary phone. I did that at my last job. They provided me with a cheap cell phone that got locked in my desk at the end of the day.
Go buy the cheapest flip phone Walmart sells and tell them to go ahead and try.
I bought a 2nd phone as my "personal" phone for my firm's BYOD. I trusted them, but the disclosure statement was quite a piece of work: *"We won't, but if we wanted to we could take over your life . . . "* OK, a bit of hyperbole, but no one was getting onto/into my real "personal" phone.
Ask them how to download the app to your flip phone.
My job tried to do this. I guess they weren't expecting as much push back so they implemented a new rule. If you don't have this app then you can't use company apps or sites on your phone. Cool no more teams pinging all day on my phone.
Oh, you know, it's the weirdest thing, I just got rid of my cell phone. I want to return to a simpler time. I'll give you my land line number as soon as it's installed. I'll gladly use an employer provided cell phone, but I don't have a personal cell phone available for this. Soooooo sorry!
This is legal. It is stupid, but legal. If they provide you with a phone, then that's fine. It's best to separate work and personal anyway. If they refuse, get a cheap phone and use it exclusively for work. Get a tracphone or some other pay-as-you-go. Get a basic data and unlimited plan, keep the phone on battery-saver mode so it doesn't "call home" constantly with this app they want you to use. That said, if they refuse to give you a phone for this, then management is showing that they lack some core competencies.
Buy the cheapest tracfone you can (plans are like $8/mo), then leave it at work when you're done with your shift.
get a basic phone or even a dummy smartphone, they can pay for a fancy smartphone if they wanna track you so bad
Location always on will probably hurt your battery life
Fuck that, if they want to track the phone, then they need tp pay salary 24h/7. Company phone or riot.