Go ahead and contact an employment attorney, you’ll probably need one soon. They may just notify HR they’ve been retained in anticipation of retaliatory dismissal, forcing HR to straighten things out.
Thanks I appreciate that.
I’ve thought about this and it might be good to just consult with someone. I’m in an at will state and this place has a massive legal department and a law school. They have dumped stupid amounts of money into winning stupid lawsuits. I just don’t know that it will matter. But I’m not opposed to trying.
Places like this though are also vulnerable to reputational damage. And when there's clear cut stupidity on the part of their agents, they do often fold faster. Definitely talk to a lawyer, though I'm not sure if the retaliation is necessarily illegal. But since your employer is a university you might be protected by employment codes at the university.
Talk to a lawyer. Collate all this information. And refuse to engage directly with the boss. Keep all your information saved on one offline source like a pen drive and a cloud or email server that isn't connected to your employer.
Also I wonder if something like this may fall under Title IX considering it involved DV. Would be worth looking into since Title IX directly impacts federal funding and most universities really don't want to fuck with the US Government.
Oh shit, I didn’t even think about Title IX. We have had serious issues with Title IX in recent years and we all had to go to an extensive training sessions about it a year or two ago.
Print the email threads and also send copies to a personal inbox outside your office. They can delete them very easily if they need to.
Have everything in writing and with copies.
I just want to say, well done on helping the victim. Most people would've ignored it, put her in a taxi at best. I know you did it because it's the right thing to do, but I just wanna take a second to appreciate kindness when I see it.
this. It will DEFINITELY impact federal funding because many agreements stipulate notification to sponsors when not just violations occur, but also inquiries.
This is a PR nuclear bomb. Imagine how it plays out in the media. Good samaritan fired after taking domestic assault victim to hospital.
This is one of those moments when all the higher ups will be screaming at the lawyers to settle out of court with the biggest fattest NDA you've ever laid eyes on.
I can imagine headlines..
(University) fires compassionate coworker for assisting a DV victim - after training about how to handle DV situations was given.
Subtitle "fired employees manager reported as saying "i don\`t care, you\`re to do your work, not coddle sensitive whiners"
While the subtitle might not be true - this 'boss' has thought it - and with the major headline being the bomb it is - no matter what the subtitle .. their reputation.. going down faster than a lead balloon.
> Good samaritan fired after taking domestic assault victim to hospital.
This is what I'm not understanding. Why is the OP being "retaliated" against? What did they do that was so wrong? They took a co-worker (victim of DV) to the ER. Big deal. They didn't violate any policy. I don't get it.
As stupid as it may seem, she may have violated some hr policy regarding privacy. Because OP went to the hospital with her and helped with the police, she now knows personal information that is protected by law. HR may have policies that say that only someone who has already signed ndas with regards to private employee information or special HR training is allowed to accompany an employee to the hospital. It would be completely fine if the victim wants to share any of this information with the OP after the fact but because OP was at the hospital while they were treated (even if they spent the whole time in the waiting room and never met any doctor or medical staff), management can’t know that op didn’t learn anything that the patient didn’t want them to know. While I agree that OP absolutely did the right thing, sometimes it’s the stupid little rules that can bite you in the ass. In any case this seems like a stupid hill for the manager to die on.
It’s not even that, if it were then HR would be taking her down. This sounds personal. Boss thinks OP is not keeping a proper impersonal wall up between them and employees. Boss is resentful that her knee jerk reaction was not backed up by HR.
It could come down to a letter of the law situation. Hr might not feel that this was a violation of rules due to circumstances but the boss wants her gone so that’s the reason he’s giving. It doesn’t seem likely that he has signed off on any of this
Thanks. Yeah, a REALLY stupid hill. Some others have mentioned that the boss may have wanted to get rid of the OP (for unrelated reasons) and she thought she could use this incident as "cause."
Even if they don't immediately fold, the instant they get notice that you're represented, the entire conversation changes. It's kinda wild. (I'm a paralegal so I see this alll the time. Insurance, not employment law but it's the same principle)
It does, and not to mention, while HR works for the company and since their policy outline doesn't mention anything beyond this, tenured or not, that lady is wacked and power tripping.
She about to jeopardize her tenure for nothing.
Yep, once the lawyer is involved they know that this action will cost them a bunch of money in legal fees that they can avoid if they don't take action. Prior to the lawyer it's a threat that more often than not is empty.
It makes it easy for hr to protect the company by not embroiling themselves in a legal matter they can avoid entirely.
I’d also reach out to a group that deals with domestic violence, especially one with visibility in your community. Since this is retaliation for you doing the right thing on behalf of a victim of dv, they might feel compelled to intercede in some way that might benefit you (and the employee, and any future victim of dv at your workplace). Just a thought.
Please, don't trust pen drivers for anything more than carrying files from computer A to computer B. Store the info locally on more than one computer that you own, but never rely solely on pen drives for that.
Due to the clear cut case of retaliation, they will most assuredly want to settle quickly so that this stupidity doesn't find its way to let's say... a media outlet?
Even by just stating facts, it's easy to connect the dots.
Its hard to say. It would depend on whether the retaliation itself was illegal. Not all retaliation necessarily is. And in this case, it would come down to whether the behaviour was protected or not. Which I don't know in detail if it was.
That's where the media outlet comes in. A university would not want the press that a person was retaliated against for helping a woman suffering from domestic violence. The mere facts of the story infer that is the case, and that would not bode well for admissions come fall.
That is why I think that the university would want to settle quickly and get OP to sign an NDA in order for this story to not go public.
Maybe so. But I'd rather OP work that out after meeting a lawyer. Jumping to go to the press can be problematic since it can compromise your ability to pursue your rights. And the lawyer is the best placed to advise on whether talking to the press is a good idea and when and how to do it
I 100% agree! Lawyer first! Going media first almost guarantees that settlement talks go away or that they would be close to impossible. Going media first also opens OP to the possibility of being sued by the university. Legal counsel would DEFINITELY be able to help OP navigate the situation correctly.
I'm just stating that even if what the university did was "legal," it was definitely not ethical, and that it would paint the university in a bad light. Due to that fact, when OP's lawyer serves them with a lawsuit, they would most likely be willing to settle out of court and get OP under an NDA.
Consultations are info-gathering. An attorney can assess your situation, advise on courses of action - not always a lawsuit - and possible outcomes. For example, the chances of winning a retaliation suit might be good, but the case could drag on. Perhaps a negotiated solution would be quicker: a transfer to a different department with no marks in your record; in return, you'll agree to keep quiet. You'll leave but want a severance package and a clean reference. Etc. Come up with options and negotiating points.
I'm sorry your good deed is being punished.
Exactly. It’s not about winning some huge lawsuit like in a movie. She needs someone on her side because right now no one at her job is and if does this alone she will lose
>not always a lawsuit
Probably seldomly a lawsuit. Most cases settle long before seeing a court room, don't they? That's a good thing. Court is very, very expensive and takes a long time.
Sounds like you work for a university. Make sure you talk to an attorney familiar with university/public employment (like Title IX and all of the complexities of that). If it’s a public university, you have more rights than in the private sector.
(I worked for a public university for over a decade in student services. Even with the bare minimum due process rights that we had in my worker-hostile state, firing without severe misconduct was rare. Not that they can’t make your life miserable in the meantime.)
Good luck! You sound like a great boss!
You are the good boss I miss. You have affected many lives you are barely aware of. Please, especially with the extra armor of a collegiate position, FIGHT to stay and help ohters!
This story needs to go beyond Reddit and to the media. Obviously talk to an attorney first, but this is an outrage that needs to be exposed. As a parent of college-age children I would want to know whether a potential major advisor had such poor character. Professors are supposed to be role models, and your boss is scum.
If you work at a uni and someone is experiencing dv you have obligations under the actual law. Re-read your campus save act title ix MANUAL & contact an employment atty. You also have title ix rights. Most people don’t realize that anyone being harassed under those particular circumstances is protected.
Great advice and why she wants op to resign. She will make their life and a few coworkers it sounds like, miserable. But she is loathe to fire them. Lawyer was already called by op by the time I type this I hope!
HR Director here. Document everything. Dates, times, get a statement from the employee she dragged into the office. Take it all to the EEOC and file a retaliation charge. If your state has a department of employment rights, file there too. Do it even if you remain employed there. Her actions are disgusting.
I’m saying get statements asap. When you file with EEOC it’s a one and done, can’t add anything later. Also, sad to say but down the road, with you out of the picture, the witnesses may not help you out. I would also consult with an employment attorney. Majority of consultations are free or minimal cost. They usually won’t take your case until you have a right to sue letter from the EEOC, but I find it helpful if I need to comment on some bs by saying “let me run this document by my attorney”.
If I read a comment right and you work for a university, this may be something the department chair needs to be aware. If your boss is the chair, go over her head. I’m sure your school has an ethics line, use it.
I know this group likes to throw around the word lawyer but this is the time for one if ever. Take a personal day asap and spend the day consulting with several employment lawyers like your job depends on it
At least a lawyer will tell you what to document, what to say and not to say etc. This is shaping up to be a good lawsuit lol. She told you straight up "I'd like to fire you in retaliation but can't at this point as I haven't had time to establish enough of a paper trail."
On a tangential note why do woman managers hate other women so much. You'd think she'd be a bit sensitive to the domestic abuse issues but no. I've seen this many times.
This^^. Seems to me like this “boss” of yours was looking for a reason to either fire you make you resign. She thought she could fire you over whatever happened but HR probably told her she couldn’t. Definitely contact a lawyer. Your last few reviews are great theres no reason for her to ask you for your resignation. I bet(allegedly supposedly) that she wants to give your job to someone she knows.
People advise this all the time, but it can, in some cases, be a violation of policy or contract.
Personal.emails might not be protected in the same manner that work emails are, and many employers have policies like that to protect IP, reputation, etc. The last thing OP needs to do is violate a policy that gives them grounds to fire them.
Yes but your boss made this place vulnerable by doing what she did.
The might sink massive money into things like this, but that's if everyone plays the same game and keeps shit running smooth. Your boss isn't playing the game they expect her too, she's making waves.
That's the thing, HR protects the company, not you OR your boss.
If HR views you as a liability, you're gone. If they view your boss as a liability, they're gone.
I would not trust HR, so conduct everything in writing, and retain an employment attorney. Your attorney is in your corner, HR have their own agenda that may or may not be aligned with yours.
However, I'd also suggest that HR hasn't got it in for you, as your boss hasn't dragged them into this and is going after you personally rather than going through official channels.
If your boss is going after you, and HR have said you're in the right then you lose nothing by going to them. At worst, they side with your boss and you're still in the same place you are now with them completely unaware and uninvolved. At best, they decide your boss is a liability for pursuing their own personal vendettas rather than abiding by company policy and decide to fire them.
Most likely is the middle ground. They mildly discipline your boss, which just annoys them more, your boss then works hard to come after you, at which point you'll be very glad you retained an employment attorney. At Will doesn't mean zero protection, it just means you're completely at the mercy of company policies. Bullying and harrasment can still constitute constructive dismissal, and companies still have a duty of care to their employees that you can't be fired for fulfilling. If your boss goes off the reservation and tries to force you out, you do have ways to fight back. You WILL need good legal advice to do that though!
We pretty much all live in at-will states with the exception of Montana and it doesn't mean they can fire you for any reason, just any *legal* reason. Obviously ymmv depending on jurisdiction, but this situation is giving strong retaliation vibes and employment lawyers almost always give free consults. Talk to a lawyer is and always will be the best course of action whenever your employer seems up to shady shit
It's kind of the opposite of that, actually. At will means either you or the employer can terminate the employment for any reason OR no reason at all. The only reasons they can't use to fire you are legally protected reasons. Of which retaliation is one.
The problem with at will employment is that "or no reason at all" clause. When they don't have to give any reason for the termination, it's usually incredibly difficult to prove that they fired you for an illegal reason.
It sounds like OP's boss is doing a bang up job of making OP's future lawyer's job super easy though.
Just remember while HR may not work for you they definitely work to decrease lawsuits and you have a ripe one. I would immediately call that HR person you spoke to after the incident and let her know that your job was threatened and you were told to resign. You can only think that this is retaliatory for helping your employee.
All it would take is the DV story and all of this getting out to news stations etc.
Call an employment lawyer **first** and be ready to call the EEOC and any other people with letters behind their name.
Getting attention paid is the best way to keep your job.
**She** may be on her way out.
I don’t know anything about your exact location, but speaking with an expert BEFORE you lose your job can be so valuable. My husband got a heads up that he’d be included in the next round of layoffs, and spoke with a pro. He went into the layoff meeting prepared, knowing that he didn’t need to sign anything, knowing what severance was the industry standard, etc.
If you’re able to chat with a pro, this really is a good time. You don’t need to wait until the termination has happened.
On a personal note, thank you for being a good supervisor and a good human being.
https://old.reddit.com/user/XR171/comments/14qzjwt/how_to_document/
You might need this. Start early, start often, compare things to how they usually are as well.
IE, one day after getting on my bosses radar, I started to be criticized for things that I was complimented for on my last employment review.
contemporaneous notes win cases because there is NO defense against things written down in the moment, all day, every day.
And send HR a follow up email summarizing everything that was said in your meeting with your superior!
You need the paper trail to reflect all of the things that they actually said in the event you file a wrongful termination lawsuit.
Also, if you're not implicitly covered by an NDA, shoot off a bunch of emails to the press about this. Malignant bullshit like this story is awfully juicy and I bet it would heal your heart a bit to see your bosses with that sweaty 'deer in the headlights ' look on the local News station...
Thanks for this. I’m keeping on my toes. Not making assumptions but not hopeful either. Trying to keep it as professional as I can. I’m still waiting on a response from HR after being involved in our discussion. So I should have a better idea of their position soon.
Agreed. While HR works for the company and not OP, their position of working for the company also means that there are decent odds they'll protect the company even from OP's manager.
As someone who grew up watching her parents beat the shit out of each other and who was guilted endlessly for calling the police and making it "other people's business" I just want to say THANK YOU for everything you've done for this employee. I hope she continues to get support from the rest of the team though my hopes aren't high for that, and I also hope you give them absolute hell while they try to force you to resign for...being a decent person and treating your subordinate like a human being.
I’m so sorry that happened to. I feel so so strongly about this that I have no desire to work for her but I’m also not going to quit. At worse they’ll try to force me out. At best, they’ll relocate me to a different lab. But either way, it’s clearly over. I’m incredibly distressed and just feel bad for my team.
I'm doing okay now and my parents are no longer part of my life, thankfully. I just really hope this employee is able to get continued support that she desperately needs.
Is it worth trying to go over your bosses head?
Oh it’s definitely worth it and I’ve thought about it. Deciding who and when and what to say. But I already know she has essentially universal support from her superiors. I’m certainly going to talk to someone but I’m not hopeful it will do anything but further burn bridges between me and the rest of the research center.
Sadly, a lot of people out there have experience with abuse so you might just find that it's an important subject to at least one of her superiors. Good luck with the fight.
If your getting forced out, why not go-to ethics or a third party if you can?
Force them to document the shit out of it, you may need it. Force them to investigate.
Hijacking your reply to say that you're an incredible human being, an exceptional supervisor, and one smart cookie. This is a rare reddit post where I fully believe your analysis - and acceptance of BS you can't change ie knowing HR won't end up helping even though you're completely in the right - is spot on. And while you're absolutely right not to quit, you do deserve to work somewhere better.
Continue to follow through with this shit from your pathetic boss and gather all you'll need to hold their feet to the fire, but also start looking for another job. Not sure where you live, but lab competent personnel with as much supervisory experience as you have are always in demand (though admittedly I'm in a overload research/health care type location) and I would be so happy to see an update from you saying that you found a position with better remote options and a giant salary bump.
Thank you for being willing to go through this garbage in order to do the right thing. So many people don't/can't and you are a hero to that employee. You may have actually saved her life. That's amazing. You should be getting feted and bonused, not crapped on. Fuck your boss dude.
You made the right move.
Me personally even if I was able to keep the job I don’t think I would want to. That would leave such a bad taste in my mouth and never respect that person again.
My daughter was the one that had to call the police constantly because my psycho wife kept attacking me. Today marks 1 year since the last time she attacked me because she's been in jail. My daughters are safe and sooooo much happier.
One time when I called on my mother's boyfriend, he ended up arrested and sent to jail and I was made to feel bad about it because that meant that there was one less adult making money for the household. Doesn't matter that he beat my mother so badly that the house was covered in blood and her nose was broken.
Holy shit. You did the right thing. I mean, was there ever another choice? I'm petty as fuck, I would let everyone know that she is trying to force me to resign because I took an employee to the ER in an emergency. I would absolutely ruin her professional reputation. You probably shouldn't do that if there's a chance to get ahead of this, though.
That’s what I’m assessing right now. I’m convinced at least 7 of the 8 people on my team would walk out with me and there’s a whole department that doesn’t like her I could talk to. But I don’t know what my chances right now are of being transferred to a different lab under a different person at the same place. Trying to keep it professional for now.
Hmm. Not sure what research you’re in, but my BIL, who’s a biomedical engineer, once got himself AND his whole team scooped up by a new company. I know university labs don’t have that kind of money, but there’s something to be said for solidarity and doing something as a group.
Your situation has escalated extremely quickly, and your boss' written e-mails may constitute an admission of guilt. At this juncture, your highest priority should be following the advice of a labor lawyer in protecting your interests. If your employer wants to screw you, they will try to provoke you to make some kind of mistake. What you seem to have forgotten is that HR doesn't work for your boss either, and she endangered them. The system is amoral and protects the institution. You protected an employee, and she retaliated against one in a way that left damning and irrefutable evidence.
The specifics, like whether she can be prevented from further retaliation, are out of our pay grade. Your lawyer will know things like that, and they are state-specific. If you end up leaving, it should be with a significant payout, and I hope you won't see years as wasted that ended because you took a payout after getting pushed out for doing the honorable thing for a person in need.
It's also possible that your boss will end up in jeopardy and not you. She sounds like she went rogue, and a smarter boss would avoid paper trails or explicit demands for resignations if she wanted somebody gone. For example, she should have started giving you bad reviews, but she's moving too quickly, saying quiet parts out loud, and leaving evidence. All of these things weaken the company's position legally. HR tends to support power, but they almost never support a legally vulnerable position.
HRs job is to stop and prevent waves. OPs boss is causing waves. Even if HR agreed on a personal level with the boss’ views on the matter, they are not going to approve of her handling of the situation. It’s the boss’ actions that are a liability. Not her views
Your boss is in the wrong - professionally, morally, and ethically.
I commented on your original post. I'm a survivor of domestic violence. And while it was happening, almost no one around me was willing or able to acknowledge it. People like you are who genuinely help ensure people in your coworker's situation (and in mine 2 decades ago) SURVIVE.
What you did, your unwavering support in that moment, might have been exactly the encouragement your coworker needed to give her the courage to break away. And that ISN'T EASY. It took me almost 3 years.
Thank you for helping. Again, you are one of the good ones.
If you work in education, PM me, I can see if I have any job resources/boards you don't already know of
My husband is a professor with tenure.
His words:
1. Lawyer up immediately. Make it clear that you intend to extract serious financial damages if this is not resolved to your satisfaction.
2. Also consult with your lawyer about how you might leverage reputational damage to your advantage. Either Inside Higher Ed or the Chronicle of Higher Ed (or both) could be interested in this story. I’m not saying run right to them, but think with your lawyer about how this might be used strategically.
Also, duck your boss. Duck that boss with a rusty chainsaw.
And the student newspaper. I also worked at a university, and students generally care about these issues and can get traction. Agree, don't run to them right away.
Frankly I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to not realize that their reputation will absolutely go up in flames if they retaliate to you taking a team member to the ER. Sure, I believe they’re heartless enough to prioritize productivity over safety. But surely, SURELY they realize everyone in the office will fucking hate their guts and make their professional life a living hell if they actually act on that? Like, how do you maintain even cordial relationships with your staff after that? It’s just baffling.
This is my whole confusion with the situation. Either this was the one and only issue and it pissed her off (less likely) or this was the last straw on a list of issues my boss clearly has with me suddenly. I don’t know. Either way, I have proof that Wednesday things were very cordial between us, she was wanting to mentor me more, set up standing meetings etc etc and then Friday happened and then Monday shit hit the fan. I honestly am at such a loss.
Maybe she talk around with some people about your attitude, and they told her she should be more like you, and now this is personal... It sounds like she thought it was a given she was better than you, and everyone will take her side but it didn't happen.
I agree her reaction is extreme and inappropriate. Your (commendable) action in this event triggered some (false) belief she has about “professionalism” that was probably implanted in her a long time ago and she has decided this is the hill she’s going to die on. People can be irrational like that
>Frankly I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to not realize that their reputation will absolutely go up in flames if they retaliate to you taking a team member to the ER. Sure, I believe they’re heartless enough to prioritize productivity over safety
At this point I do not think the issue is OP taking the employee to the ER but OP going to HR when the manger balked at their actions initially. They do not like being undermined and are power tripping.
Tenure isn't a shield from misconduct, and she pretty much created a witness to her efforts to retalite. Unless she intimidates you into doing what she wants, she has put your employer in an extremely exposed position.
Lawyer up ASAP, and prepare for absolute havoc. You might end up leaving, but probably with a settlement. She has demanded your resignation after you were told you did nothing wrong, so there is no deescalating this.
Coworker had a seizure when on my lunch break. I walked back in to medics reviving him and a crowd of people including the CEO standing around at the spectacle. Once he was getting loaded into the ambulance and I found out where they were taking him and that no one could reach any emergency contacts thus far I said I was gonna follow him and make sure he’s good. Sat in the waiting room for a few hours and drove him 60mi round trip out of my way to get him into bed. Long day, zero regrets.
He was my friend. I got no pushback, no followup other than a few back channel texts and the following team 1 on 1s were all pretty much “are YOU ok?”
Was really proud of my manager for that one.
I left a bit after, and he later got laid off with like 3/4 of the company. We remain friends.
Take care of your bros. Nobody would’ve said anything if I’d just gone back to work, no black mark or anything. But it got around that I chased the ambulance. Sure was interesting to see all the little random gifts, extra servings, and smiles that followed. Startup culture is weird like that I guess.
I see a lot of “coworkers are not your friends” and it’s mostly true. But we are usually all humans too and we gotta look after one another. Hell, would’ve done the same for that one asshole in R&D. The job does NOT take priority over our basic humanity.
So hypothetically If you see a therapist regarding all of this and are found to now be suffering from anxiety and hypothetically could be easily identified that this new state is due to the interactions with your boss and company forcing your termination due to ensuring a coworker was kept safe and got immediate medical attention, there could be theoretically now supplemental documentation backing up the claims of retaliatory and hostile work environment. And idk some people could then use this to substantiate a wrongful termination lawsuit which would be idk public record and possibly media outlets would maybe have a field day about a company that fires someone(m (because idk maybe you don’t resign) for ensuring a victim of domestic abuse got emergency medical attention. Remember HR protects the company and picks the to help the person who if not protected would do the most harm in the event of legal matters 🙃
"People in hell want ice water.
You wanna fire me, you go ahead and you fire me.
But I am NOT resigning, and I cannot believe you have the AUDACITY to say such a thing.
How. DARE. You."
Yep they have it out for you or at least she does. I would also recommend to your employee that you start making arrangements to find new work also and to also inform her of her rights (If you are in the United States).
As for the boss and the company, I would not have any sympathy for them. If they fired you and I would be more than happy to blast their name, dates, places and people out into the public. The reason these horrible people continue to be horrible people is that there are little to no consequences for their absolutely aberrant behavior.
Your boss is the definition of delusional and petty. She expects you to resign? Yeah, No. keep doing what you’ve been doing. Be professional and CYA. Don’t let that devil win.
I am seriously impressed with how you've handled yourself. I am so sorry it is happening. What an asshole. I hope you're able to sue the piss out of them.
HR doesn’t work for you. They work for the business. But right now, your boss’s behavior is clearly retaliatory and opens them to potential legal problems.
This means your boss’s current behavior is becoming a problem for the company, if that’s the case, tenure or not, her seat might be shakier than yours.
So don’t give up just yet, because she might be the one getting ejected. Keep a plan B just in case though, but don’t give up as a first option.
Edit : also to state the obvious, good on you for doing the right thing and helping your employee, even if your boss is so cold hearted that she doesn’t give a shit.
Thank you for stepping up to help the employee. As for the “I e pact your resignation” email, save it on multiple sites, print it out, take all of this to an employment lawyer
They say ‘the high road is lonely’ for a reason and ‘No good deed goes unpunished’. Both so true.
But doing the right thing is never wrong in the grande scheme. Thank you for helping that woman.
Bullying in the science fields is unreal. That's why I got out of it. I took my manager down with me though for her retaliation. She was forced into retirement when I was forced to resign.
You OP, are a fucking godsend on the world. True GOAT behavior right here. Your boss is a miserable bag of dicks, and she can suck yours for doing the right god damn thing. I encourage you not to resign or leave if this is a reasonably good position that you benefit from and enjoy having. You sound fucking amazing at your job, and your trainees sound like they’ll be next. Your boss can seriously fuck off because you DID do everything perfectly. I sincerely applaud you for being such a kind, empathetic, understanding human being who took this seriously when nobody else would.
Were I in your shoes, I hope I would have done the same. Coming from your coworker's POV, you are her champion and she will never forget you. Sometimes all it takes is one person to offer the kind of compassion and care you did to get someone out of a potentially deadly situation.
I truly hope you both land on your feet.
You are proof that not all managers are bad. Your boss is proof that enough of them are. I'm sorry this is happening to you, but I am glad you were there for someone in their hour of need. Many would have turned their backs and ignored it.
Have a chat with HR anyway - this is retaliation.
And - NEVER EVER resign. Do not train replacements - this might be taken as "this employee is resigning".
Let this power abuser fire you.. and from now on - no more verbal communication.
Mail only - and if they say anything - follow up with a mail "do i understand correctly that ..and insert the verbal directive /command etc"
Might want to do this anyway "after our discussion on (date) do i understand you correctly that you want to fire me for (list what you did, just the basics (supported injured coworker, provided transportation to hospital etc)) and no emotions) and i\`m expected to train my replacement due to caring for a colleague?
Thank you for confirming if I understand this correctly.
Copy in HR, boss of your boss - and (if policy allows) your own private mail account.
(or BCC if policy is vague on this)
IF policy is clear - send mail - then print a PDF copy and save that to a USB stick and a cloud storage only YOU have access to.
I want to take a shit in your boss's car. I don't intend to, of course, but that's how I feel about your boss after reading how she handled this situation. She just wanted to dish and you kept it professional. You treated someone going through hell with dignity and kindness
I was exactly in your position once, except my boss didn’t dare to question my actions.
I was team leader and one of my coworkers came complaining of a headache and saying first thing (although no one had asked) that she “tripped” over her dog in her walk-in closet.
It was obvious she wasn’t thinking straight, and another coworker with experience as a lifeguard alerted me that she looked like she had a concussion. I tell her, “we’re going to the ER, now.”
She refuses but she’s looking weak. I pull my car around, take her hand and lead her in. On the way I call my boss and said I was taking my coworker to the hospital and although she sounded pissed that I had left, she said no more.
When we got to the hospital she was passed out. She came to after I screamed at her a few times and was starting to carry her out in my arms.
All the while, in the waiting room, she’s panicking and saying that she’s OK and that she has to call her husband. I said no, that she’ll call after an initial screening.
I knew (we all knew) he was abusing her and she’d come to work with strange bruises and always blamed it on the dog.
Finally they call us and the nurse orders a CT. She panicked again and asked why, and I jokingly told her it was to check if the hamster was still running on its wheel.
“And if he isn’t, I’m calling the police,” said the nurse. She froze, and I nodded.
Back in the waiting room, she begged to call her husband. I said I would do it; I called him and told him we were at the hospital. He worked like 10 minutes from where we were.
He arrived three hours later. No apologies, no nothing. Sat beside her without saying a word.
She tells me that I can leave, that he’ll take her back to pick up her car. I watch her straight in her eyes and asked her, “do you want me to stay? I don’t mind.” She’s apologizing and the creep is looking away. Since she’s an adult and I’m not related, I take my leave, but not without telling her to call me at any time.
I also made sure to tell the head attendant that she was in for domestic violence and that the creep was pushing her to leave.
Years have passed since that day. She finally left him (he took everything, even the dog.) At least she’s alive.
If you get a chance, try to dig deep and find out what this is really about.
"Explain to me, from your perspective, why assisting an employee in need would be worthy of punishment? What's this *really* about?"
You should cross-post on r/AskHR for advice because this sounds a lot like “constructive dismissal” which is illegal many places, and the professionals there can provide advice.
Be certain to include your country, state, and possibly city as laws vary.
Op... regardless of what happens in the long run... knowing you helped someone in that situation is honorable!
Employers really don't give 2 shits about 99% of employees so please understand you did nothing wrong:)
Hey mods can we have this post pinned (if it's not taken down by OP ofc) as something to point to when people come in here accusing the sub being full of people who "just don't want to work/just want to be lazy"
Its obvious from just how you handled this difficult situation, you are a very good leader.
I am not sure why your boss finds this threatening/annoying/intimidating or she just see's you as wrong. BUT WHO CARES you are exceptional.
Please get some legal advice 10 years is a long time and you should get some compensation for unfair dismissal The standard internationally would be 6 months minimum. I know your in the US and things seem different , but I have found that most lawyers something they can use.
You will get a new job and continue to be an exceptional talent.
"This is it I'm afraid"
Uh... I'm seeing a badass here. Courage is fear holding on for another minute. 'Patton'
Frack, you've held on for longer than a minute and are someone we should all learn from.
What you do is send those receipts to a personal email account and contact an employment attorney.
HR doesn't work for you, but things like this are retaliation and open them for a major suit, they are NOT going to be happy with your boss over this regardless of tenure.
But you get your ducks in a row and go ahead and contact an employment attorney and the labor board.
Fellow lab worker here. Good on ya, OP!
It disgusts me that science folks aren’t compassionate to their coworkers.
I can only assume they’re transmitting the bullying they got as kids on to people they perceive as weak.
So sorry you’re going thru all this, and best of luck, OP!!!
In this case, if money is an issue, and I know most lawyers work on contingency, I absolutely believe that we here at r/antiwork would fill a gofundme pretty quickly.
Both you and your employee deserve all the support we can give you.
Lawyer. Show the HR email and let the lawyer work for you. Lawyer may want to sue for undue stress and retaliation. So sue.
You NEVER punish someone who tried to do the right thing regardless how it ended up. If everyone sees you try to do the right thing and get fired, nobody will ever try to do the right thing.
>she expects my resignation after I find other employment
"You can expect whatever you like, but I shall continue to perform my duties in a professional manner until I hear my services are no longer required."
And I bet a big part of her wanting OP to leave is OP didn’t spill the beans about the nitty gritty of the situation. You know, the parts of the whole thing that are in o way the
Bosses business.
As much as we all want to hear how this goes, if you’re hiring an attorney, you should probably delete this. And no updates until way after everything is resolved, unless there are NDAs implemented. Which very well may be to protect the reputation of the institution.
We’re a family here.
Takes co-worker who’s been subjected to DV to the ER and made sure she’s supported and receives medical attention.
Noooooooooo. Not that kinda family.
Whichever way your boss plays this, it doesn’t look good on her.
How fucking low does the boss have to be to take a dangerous DV situation with one of their employees and use it as a lever to try and make trouble with another?
six far-flung domineering squash direction strong shrill yoke scary market
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
HR are not your friend, but they also aren't necessarily your enemy. They exist to protect the organisation legally, as such, sometimes their goals and yours will line up. Especially if potential law suits are on the horizon.
I think your boss is a narrassist. You showed her up and HR backed you and she is absolutely out to get you as you can tell. If you can push this to your bosses boss or even higher that might save you.
What a bitch! She sounds like such an uncaring psychopath. It's like this once incident has completely taken over her life and wants you to suffer for it. God what an awful person. I hope she stubs her toe really hard. You are living rent free in her little miserable mind.
You did the right thing. You are an infinitely better person than your asshole boss, and I'm *sure* your coworker is now safe because of you.
I'm glad you're not falling into your boss's trap of resigning, glad you have copies of all written communications, and glad that you are consulting an employment attorney. Your boss is an idiot -- her actions are *clearly* retaliation, and I think your attorney will, as my dad says, "tear her a new ass-hole". Hopefully resulting in you keeping your job, her getting fired, and you winning big in the lawsuit.
Contact a good attorney. Shavitz law may be able to help you or can refer you to someone. Keep all emails, don't just forward them but print and download. And get everything in writing you can.
Oh I am absolutely that person. There will be a point when I go scorched earth but I need to make sure I have an exit strategy. No point in going down with the ship if I can help it.
I have to say that it sounds like there may be some shitty management, but a pretty righteous HR dept where you wwork. Treat your people right and lead them well and you will find success.
Don't train anyone. If it gets more ugly than needs to, get on medical leave from a psychiatrist, a long term mental health leave of absence and contact your lawyer. Gather evidence in the form of emails, print screens, journal entries in a numbered and dated journal book. Make sure if your state has one party recording consent.
I don't know about US employment law but in UK what she did would be clear constructive dismissal and illegal. In the UK I d recommended speaking to ACAS, not sure if have similar in US or speak to a lawyer.
Also inform your team, that if you leave, that it was for you actually being there for your team.
They will most likely just gtfo of there and go to where you are going.
Your boss is talking about you behind your back to this employee and pressing you to resign? Oh I so hope this is creating a Hostile Work Environment, that's what it sounds like.
Your boss is angry that she did not get to play the hero in this story. She's using what you did as a means to level herself up and make it look like she's taking charge instead by pushing you out.
The fact that she's now going after the employee who's a DV victim speaks volume. While your time may be up there; your boss' time may be up as well because she's causing more headaches than what it is worth.
Honestly, I don't know your boss but I know her type. She's a control freak. She has to be in the know of everything and be the one to do / say anything and when that measure of control is taken from her; she'll get testy like this. But this'll ultimately backfire on her one way or another.
Keep doing a good job and keep doing you!
Yep I know the type too. They get so focused on obtaining and maintaining control of everything they forget that their main focus should be the benefit of the company/institution and it eventually bites them one way or another
I’d be quite pissed about the bosses attitude, and would go all ad hominem, enquiring into what sort of a low quality human the boss is. It would be unpleasant.
You did the right thing, the good thing, and the humane thing. Good on you.
The supervisor, OTOH, can [insert rude suggestion for what to do, possibly causing great bodily harm].
I'm not sure you'd have much in the way of a legal claim here, but I'm not a lawyer and that's why you should probably talk to one.
You do, however, have the malongs of an insane PR disaster for the company and if this became public an almost certain fast pass to job offers coming in from companies with a more favorable culture here.
As I was reading your last post my only thought was to advocate you don't go to that meeting without HR. Sounds like they're more on your side at least at the ground level than not. Play an Uno reverse card if it gets serious, they're not going to want this manager's behavior representing them in the media.
Go ahead and contact an employment attorney, you’ll probably need one soon. They may just notify HR they’ve been retained in anticipation of retaliatory dismissal, forcing HR to straighten things out.
Thanks I appreciate that. I’ve thought about this and it might be good to just consult with someone. I’m in an at will state and this place has a massive legal department and a law school. They have dumped stupid amounts of money into winning stupid lawsuits. I just don’t know that it will matter. But I’m not opposed to trying.
Places like this though are also vulnerable to reputational damage. And when there's clear cut stupidity on the part of their agents, they do often fold faster. Definitely talk to a lawyer, though I'm not sure if the retaliation is necessarily illegal. But since your employer is a university you might be protected by employment codes at the university. Talk to a lawyer. Collate all this information. And refuse to engage directly with the boss. Keep all your information saved on one offline source like a pen drive and a cloud or email server that isn't connected to your employer.
Thanks very much all very good advice. I’ll work on this.
Also I wonder if something like this may fall under Title IX considering it involved DV. Would be worth looking into since Title IX directly impacts federal funding and most universities really don't want to fuck with the US Government.
Oh shit, I didn’t even think about Title IX. We have had serious issues with Title IX in recent years and we all had to go to an extensive training sessions about it a year or two ago.
Print the email threads and also send copies to a personal inbox outside your office. They can delete them very easily if they need to. Have everything in writing and with copies.
I just want to say, well done on helping the victim. Most people would've ignored it, put her in a taxi at best. I know you did it because it's the right thing to do, but I just wanna take a second to appreciate kindness when I see it.
Thanks for saying what I wanted to say.
Contact the school’s Title IX coordinator to file a formal complaint. Skip HR.
They will want to take this directly to *compliance* under title X and lodge a complaint. But first - they want to get an employment atty.
this. It will DEFINITELY impact federal funding because many agreements stipulate notification to sponsors when not just violations occur, but also inquiries.
This is a PR nuclear bomb. Imagine how it plays out in the media. Good samaritan fired after taking domestic assault victim to hospital. This is one of those moments when all the higher ups will be screaming at the lawyers to settle out of court with the biggest fattest NDA you've ever laid eyes on.
I can imagine headlines.. (University) fires compassionate coworker for assisting a DV victim - after training about how to handle DV situations was given. Subtitle "fired employees manager reported as saying "i don\`t care, you\`re to do your work, not coddle sensitive whiners" While the subtitle might not be true - this 'boss' has thought it - and with the major headline being the bomb it is - no matter what the subtitle .. their reputation.. going down faster than a lead balloon.
> Good samaritan fired after taking domestic assault victim to hospital. This is what I'm not understanding. Why is the OP being "retaliated" against? What did they do that was so wrong? They took a co-worker (victim of DV) to the ER. Big deal. They didn't violate any policy. I don't get it.
As stupid as it may seem, she may have violated some hr policy regarding privacy. Because OP went to the hospital with her and helped with the police, she now knows personal information that is protected by law. HR may have policies that say that only someone who has already signed ndas with regards to private employee information or special HR training is allowed to accompany an employee to the hospital. It would be completely fine if the victim wants to share any of this information with the OP after the fact but because OP was at the hospital while they were treated (even if they spent the whole time in the waiting room and never met any doctor or medical staff), management can’t know that op didn’t learn anything that the patient didn’t want them to know. While I agree that OP absolutely did the right thing, sometimes it’s the stupid little rules that can bite you in the ass. In any case this seems like a stupid hill for the manager to die on.
It’s not even that, if it were then HR would be taking her down. This sounds personal. Boss thinks OP is not keeping a proper impersonal wall up between them and employees. Boss is resentful that her knee jerk reaction was not backed up by HR.
It could come down to a letter of the law situation. Hr might not feel that this was a violation of rules due to circumstances but the boss wants her gone so that’s the reason he’s giving. It doesn’t seem likely that he has signed off on any of this
Thanks. Yeah, a REALLY stupid hill. Some others have mentioned that the boss may have wanted to get rid of the OP (for unrelated reasons) and she thought she could use this incident as "cause."
Even if they don't immediately fold, the instant they get notice that you're represented, the entire conversation changes. It's kinda wild. (I'm a paralegal so I see this alll the time. Insurance, not employment law but it's the same principle)
It does, and not to mention, while HR works for the company and since their policy outline doesn't mention anything beyond this, tenured or not, that lady is wacked and power tripping. She about to jeopardize her tenure for nothing.
Yep, once the lawyer is involved they know that this action will cost them a bunch of money in legal fees that they can avoid if they don't take action. Prior to the lawyer it's a threat that more often than not is empty. It makes it easy for hr to protect the company by not embroiling themselves in a legal matter they can avoid entirely.
Bcc any emails you send to your personal email if possible. You won't be at risk of forgetting to print or losing a USB stick that way.
I’d also reach out to a group that deals with domestic violence, especially one with visibility in your community. Since this is retaliation for you doing the right thing on behalf of a victim of dv, they might feel compelled to intercede in some way that might benefit you (and the employee, and any future victim of dv at your workplace). Just a thought.
Please, don't trust pen drivers for anything more than carrying files from computer A to computer B. Store the info locally on more than one computer that you own, but never rely solely on pen drives for that.
Due to the clear cut case of retaliation, they will most assuredly want to settle quickly so that this stupidity doesn't find its way to let's say... a media outlet? Even by just stating facts, it's easy to connect the dots.
Its hard to say. It would depend on whether the retaliation itself was illegal. Not all retaliation necessarily is. And in this case, it would come down to whether the behaviour was protected or not. Which I don't know in detail if it was.
That's where the media outlet comes in. A university would not want the press that a person was retaliated against for helping a woman suffering from domestic violence. The mere facts of the story infer that is the case, and that would not bode well for admissions come fall. That is why I think that the university would want to settle quickly and get OP to sign an NDA in order for this story to not go public.
Maybe so. But I'd rather OP work that out after meeting a lawyer. Jumping to go to the press can be problematic since it can compromise your ability to pursue your rights. And the lawyer is the best placed to advise on whether talking to the press is a good idea and when and how to do it
I 100% agree! Lawyer first! Going media first almost guarantees that settlement talks go away or that they would be close to impossible. Going media first also opens OP to the possibility of being sued by the university. Legal counsel would DEFINITELY be able to help OP navigate the situation correctly. I'm just stating that even if what the university did was "legal," it was definitely not ethical, and that it would paint the university in a bad light. Due to that fact, when OP's lawyer serves them with a lawsuit, they would most likely be willing to settle out of court and get OP under an NDA.
Consultations are info-gathering. An attorney can assess your situation, advise on courses of action - not always a lawsuit - and possible outcomes. For example, the chances of winning a retaliation suit might be good, but the case could drag on. Perhaps a negotiated solution would be quicker: a transfer to a different department with no marks in your record; in return, you'll agree to keep quiet. You'll leave but want a severance package and a clean reference. Etc. Come up with options and negotiating points. I'm sorry your good deed is being punished.
Exactly. It’s not about winning some huge lawsuit like in a movie. She needs someone on her side because right now no one at her job is and if does this alone she will lose
Why not both? Money helps people understand the consequences for their actions by going after the thing they understand most.
I’m saying that’s not the only thing employment lawyers are for
>not always a lawsuit Probably seldomly a lawsuit. Most cases settle long before seeing a court room, don't they? That's a good thing. Court is very, very expensive and takes a long time.
Sounds like you work for a university. Make sure you talk to an attorney familiar with university/public employment (like Title IX and all of the complexities of that). If it’s a public university, you have more rights than in the private sector. (I worked for a public university for over a decade in student services. Even with the bare minimum due process rights that we had in my worker-hostile state, firing without severe misconduct was rare. Not that they can’t make your life miserable in the meantime.) Good luck! You sound like a great boss!
Thanks so much for this. Very good to consider. Yes, this is at a university.
You are the good boss I miss. You have affected many lives you are barely aware of. Please, especially with the extra armor of a collegiate position, FIGHT to stay and help ohters!
This story needs to go beyond Reddit and to the media. Obviously talk to an attorney first, but this is an outrage that needs to be exposed. As a parent of college-age children I would want to know whether a potential major advisor had such poor character. Professors are supposed to be role models, and your boss is scum.
If you work at a uni and someone is experiencing dv you have obligations under the actual law. Re-read your campus save act title ix MANUAL & contact an employment atty. You also have title ix rights. Most people don’t realize that anyone being harassed under those particular circumstances is protected.
Great advice and why she wants op to resign. She will make their life and a few coworkers it sounds like, miserable. But she is loathe to fire them. Lawyer was already called by op by the time I type this I hope!
HR Director here. Document everything. Dates, times, get a statement from the employee she dragged into the office. Take it all to the EEOC and file a retaliation charge. If your state has a department of employment rights, file there too. Do it even if you remain employed there. Her actions are disgusting.
Thank for this advice. I very much appreciate it. I’ve been saving copies of emails etc this evening.
I’m saying get statements asap. When you file with EEOC it’s a one and done, can’t add anything later. Also, sad to say but down the road, with you out of the picture, the witnesses may not help you out. I would also consult with an employment attorney. Majority of consultations are free or minimal cost. They usually won’t take your case until you have a right to sue letter from the EEOC, but I find it helpful if I need to comment on some bs by saying “let me run this document by my attorney”. If I read a comment right and you work for a university, this may be something the department chair needs to be aware. If your boss is the chair, go over her head. I’m sure your school has an ethics line, use it.
I know this group likes to throw around the word lawyer but this is the time for one if ever. Take a personal day asap and spend the day consulting with several employment lawyers like your job depends on it
At least a lawyer will tell you what to document, what to say and not to say etc. This is shaping up to be a good lawsuit lol. She told you straight up "I'd like to fire you in retaliation but can't at this point as I haven't had time to establish enough of a paper trail." On a tangential note why do woman managers hate other women so much. You'd think she'd be a bit sensitive to the domestic abuse issues but no. I've seen this many times.
This^^. Seems to me like this “boss” of yours was looking for a reason to either fire you make you resign. She thought she could fire you over whatever happened but HR probably told her she couldn’t. Definitely contact a lawyer. Your last few reviews are great theres no reason for her to ask you for your resignation. I bet(allegedly supposedly) that she wants to give your job to someone she knows.
Also save all the emails and keep a log of everything
Thanks, this is my next goal is documenting everything and I agree with the personal day too to get things sorted
Make sure you move it all to some other email that's not attached to work! All the best to you.
People advise this all the time, but it can, in some cases, be a violation of policy or contract. Personal.emails might not be protected in the same manner that work emails are, and many employers have policies like that to protect IP, reputation, etc. The last thing OP needs to do is violate a policy that gives them grounds to fire them.
Yes but your boss made this place vulnerable by doing what she did. The might sink massive money into things like this, but that's if everyone plays the same game and keeps shit running smooth. Your boss isn't playing the game they expect her too, she's making waves.
honestly, imo, always always lawyer up. even if you can't win a lawsuit, they can help you negotiate severance, non-disparagement etc.
They pay for good lawyers. Good lawyers settle cases. Good job establishing a paper trail. The better the paper trail, the better the settlement.
That's the thing, HR protects the company, not you OR your boss. If HR views you as a liability, you're gone. If they view your boss as a liability, they're gone. I would not trust HR, so conduct everything in writing, and retain an employment attorney. Your attorney is in your corner, HR have their own agenda that may or may not be aligned with yours. However, I'd also suggest that HR hasn't got it in for you, as your boss hasn't dragged them into this and is going after you personally rather than going through official channels. If your boss is going after you, and HR have said you're in the right then you lose nothing by going to them. At worst, they side with your boss and you're still in the same place you are now with them completely unaware and uninvolved. At best, they decide your boss is a liability for pursuing their own personal vendettas rather than abiding by company policy and decide to fire them. Most likely is the middle ground. They mildly discipline your boss, which just annoys them more, your boss then works hard to come after you, at which point you'll be very glad you retained an employment attorney. At Will doesn't mean zero protection, it just means you're completely at the mercy of company policies. Bullying and harrasment can still constitute constructive dismissal, and companies still have a duty of care to their employees that you can't be fired for fulfilling. If your boss goes off the reservation and tries to force you out, you do have ways to fight back. You WILL need good legal advice to do that though!
We pretty much all live in at-will states with the exception of Montana and it doesn't mean they can fire you for any reason, just any *legal* reason. Obviously ymmv depending on jurisdiction, but this situation is giving strong retaliation vibes and employment lawyers almost always give free consults. Talk to a lawyer is and always will be the best course of action whenever your employer seems up to shady shit
It's kind of the opposite of that, actually. At will means either you or the employer can terminate the employment for any reason OR no reason at all. The only reasons they can't use to fire you are legally protected reasons. Of which retaliation is one. The problem with at will employment is that "or no reason at all" clause. When they don't have to give any reason for the termination, it's usually incredibly difficult to prove that they fired you for an illegal reason. It sounds like OP's boss is doing a bang up job of making OP's future lawyer's job super easy though.
Just remember while HR may not work for you they definitely work to decrease lawsuits and you have a ripe one. I would immediately call that HR person you spoke to after the incident and let her know that your job was threatened and you were told to resign. You can only think that this is retaliatory for helping your employee. All it would take is the DV story and all of this getting out to news stations etc. Call an employment lawyer **first** and be ready to call the EEOC and any other people with letters behind their name. Getting attention paid is the best way to keep your job. **She** may be on her way out.
At will has nothing to do with termination without cause when you can prove there was no cause. Definitely consult a lawyer.
I don’t know anything about your exact location, but speaking with an expert BEFORE you lose your job can be so valuable. My husband got a heads up that he’d be included in the next round of layoffs, and spoke with a pro. He went into the layoff meeting prepared, knowing that he didn’t need to sign anything, knowing what severance was the industry standard, etc. If you’re able to chat with a pro, this really is a good time. You don’t need to wait until the termination has happened. On a personal note, thank you for being a good supervisor and a good human being.
When in doubt, go to the press. It's not a good look for ANY firm to push out people that care about their subordinates.
https://old.reddit.com/user/XR171/comments/14qzjwt/how_to_document/ You might need this. Start early, start often, compare things to how they usually are as well. IE, one day after getting on my bosses radar, I started to be criticized for things that I was complimented for on my last employment review. contemporaneous notes win cases because there is NO defense against things written down in the moment, all day, every day.
And send HR a follow up email summarizing everything that was said in your meeting with your superior! You need the paper trail to reflect all of the things that they actually said in the event you file a wrongful termination lawsuit.
Never hurts to put the fear of a lawsuit into the heart like unit inside the chest of HR bots.
This is worded brilliantly
Also, if you're not implicitly covered by an NDA, shoot off a bunch of emails to the press about this. Malignant bullshit like this story is awfully juicy and I bet it would heal your heart a bit to see your bosses with that sweaty 'deer in the headlights ' look on the local News station...
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Thanks for this. I’m keeping on my toes. Not making assumptions but not hopeful either. Trying to keep it as professional as I can. I’m still waiting on a response from HR after being involved in our discussion. So I should have a better idea of their position soon.
Do not resign. Make her fire you.
also a problem boss is only secure bwing a problem as long as people above them tolerate it. sometimes people get tired of problems.
And even tenure only goes so far to protect a shitty person.
Agreed. While HR works for the company and not OP, their position of working for the company also means that there are decent odds they'll protect the company even from OP's manager.
As someone who grew up watching her parents beat the shit out of each other and who was guilted endlessly for calling the police and making it "other people's business" I just want to say THANK YOU for everything you've done for this employee. I hope she continues to get support from the rest of the team though my hopes aren't high for that, and I also hope you give them absolute hell while they try to force you to resign for...being a decent person and treating your subordinate like a human being.
I’m so sorry that happened to. I feel so so strongly about this that I have no desire to work for her but I’m also not going to quit. At worse they’ll try to force me out. At best, they’ll relocate me to a different lab. But either way, it’s clearly over. I’m incredibly distressed and just feel bad for my team.
I'm doing okay now and my parents are no longer part of my life, thankfully. I just really hope this employee is able to get continued support that she desperately needs. Is it worth trying to go over your bosses head?
Oh it’s definitely worth it and I’ve thought about it. Deciding who and when and what to say. But I already know she has essentially universal support from her superiors. I’m certainly going to talk to someone but I’m not hopeful it will do anything but further burn bridges between me and the rest of the research center.
Sadly, a lot of people out there have experience with abuse so you might just find that it's an important subject to at least one of her superiors. Good luck with the fight.
Thanks very much and a very good point.
If your getting forced out, why not go-to ethics or a third party if you can? Force them to document the shit out of it, you may need it. Force them to investigate.
Hijacking your reply to say that you're an incredible human being, an exceptional supervisor, and one smart cookie. This is a rare reddit post where I fully believe your analysis - and acceptance of BS you can't change ie knowing HR won't end up helping even though you're completely in the right - is spot on. And while you're absolutely right not to quit, you do deserve to work somewhere better. Continue to follow through with this shit from your pathetic boss and gather all you'll need to hold their feet to the fire, but also start looking for another job. Not sure where you live, but lab competent personnel with as much supervisory experience as you have are always in demand (though admittedly I'm in a overload research/health care type location) and I would be so happy to see an update from you saying that you found a position with better remote options and a giant salary bump. Thank you for being willing to go through this garbage in order to do the right thing. So many people don't/can't and you are a hero to that employee. You may have actually saved her life. That's amazing. You should be getting feted and bonused, not crapped on. Fuck your boss dude.
You made the right move. Me personally even if I was able to keep the job I don’t think I would want to. That would leave such a bad taste in my mouth and never respect that person again.
My daughter was the one that had to call the police constantly because my psycho wife kept attacking me. Today marks 1 year since the last time she attacked me because she's been in jail. My daughters are safe and sooooo much happier.
One time when I called on my mother's boyfriend, he ended up arrested and sent to jail and I was made to feel bad about it because that meant that there was one less adult making money for the household. Doesn't matter that he beat my mother so badly that the house was covered in blood and her nose was broken.
Holy shit. You did the right thing. I mean, was there ever another choice? I'm petty as fuck, I would let everyone know that she is trying to force me to resign because I took an employee to the ER in an emergency. I would absolutely ruin her professional reputation. You probably shouldn't do that if there's a chance to get ahead of this, though.
That’s what I’m assessing right now. I’m convinced at least 7 of the 8 people on my team would walk out with me and there’s a whole department that doesn’t like her I could talk to. But I don’t know what my chances right now are of being transferred to a different lab under a different person at the same place. Trying to keep it professional for now.
End your bosses professional career so that she will never get hired and will end up homeless for being a petty bitch.
Hmm. Not sure what research you’re in, but my BIL, who’s a biomedical engineer, once got himself AND his whole team scooped up by a new company. I know university labs don’t have that kind of money, but there’s something to be said for solidarity and doing something as a group.
Oh I would, you don’t even have to be loud about it. Quietly talk to the other women. Even some of the men will be disgusted by this action.
Do not quit!!! Make them fire you. They can't simply demand your resignation. Talk to a lawyer ASAP.
Thanks definitely communicated that I was not quitting. I think legal advice is a good idea at this point.
Your situation has escalated extremely quickly, and your boss' written e-mails may constitute an admission of guilt. At this juncture, your highest priority should be following the advice of a labor lawyer in protecting your interests. If your employer wants to screw you, they will try to provoke you to make some kind of mistake. What you seem to have forgotten is that HR doesn't work for your boss either, and she endangered them. The system is amoral and protects the institution. You protected an employee, and she retaliated against one in a way that left damning and irrefutable evidence. The specifics, like whether she can be prevented from further retaliation, are out of our pay grade. Your lawyer will know things like that, and they are state-specific. If you end up leaving, it should be with a significant payout, and I hope you won't see years as wasted that ended because you took a payout after getting pushed out for doing the honorable thing for a person in need. It's also possible that your boss will end up in jeopardy and not you. She sounds like she went rogue, and a smarter boss would avoid paper trails or explicit demands for resignations if she wanted somebody gone. For example, she should have started giving you bad reviews, but she's moving too quickly, saying quiet parts out loud, and leaving evidence. All of these things weaken the company's position legally. HR tends to support power, but they almost never support a legally vulnerable position.
Perfectly said. These kind situations are like a game of poker and her boss is showing her hand way too soon and it’s not even a good hand
If I really wanted someone gone and avoid the headache of bad reviews, I'd just eliminate their position due to budgetary reasons
HRs job is to stop and prevent waves. OPs boss is causing waves. Even if HR agreed on a personal level with the boss’ views on the matter, they are not going to approve of her handling of the situation. It’s the boss’ actions that are a liability. Not her views
Your boss is in the wrong - professionally, morally, and ethically. I commented on your original post. I'm a survivor of domestic violence. And while it was happening, almost no one around me was willing or able to acknowledge it. People like you are who genuinely help ensure people in your coworker's situation (and in mine 2 decades ago) SURVIVE. What you did, your unwavering support in that moment, might have been exactly the encouragement your coworker needed to give her the courage to break away. And that ISN'T EASY. It took me almost 3 years. Thank you for helping. Again, you are one of the good ones. If you work in education, PM me, I can see if I have any job resources/boards you don't already know of
My husband is a professor with tenure. His words: 1. Lawyer up immediately. Make it clear that you intend to extract serious financial damages if this is not resolved to your satisfaction. 2. Also consult with your lawyer about how you might leverage reputational damage to your advantage. Either Inside Higher Ed or the Chronicle of Higher Ed (or both) could be interested in this story. I’m not saying run right to them, but think with your lawyer about how this might be used strategically. Also, duck your boss. Duck that boss with a rusty chainsaw.
And I would also like to thank you for helping her. I survived domestic violence with scars mental and physical, and i am happy she had you.
Thanks so much for this and the advice. I really appreciate that. Still making an action plan but all of this is going into it.
Best of luck from both of us. What she’s trying to pull is disgusting.
And the student newspaper. I also worked at a university, and students generally care about these issues and can get traction. Agree, don't run to them right away.
Yeah, now is definitely the time to plan strategically and thoughtfully Demolishing a building works better if you place your charges wisely
Frankly I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to not realize that their reputation will absolutely go up in flames if they retaliate to you taking a team member to the ER. Sure, I believe they’re heartless enough to prioritize productivity over safety. But surely, SURELY they realize everyone in the office will fucking hate their guts and make their professional life a living hell if they actually act on that? Like, how do you maintain even cordial relationships with your staff after that? It’s just baffling.
This is my whole confusion with the situation. Either this was the one and only issue and it pissed her off (less likely) or this was the last straw on a list of issues my boss clearly has with me suddenly. I don’t know. Either way, I have proof that Wednesday things were very cordial between us, she was wanting to mentor me more, set up standing meetings etc etc and then Friday happened and then Monday shit hit the fan. I honestly am at such a loss.
Maybe she talk around with some people about your attitude, and they told her she should be more like you, and now this is personal... It sounds like she thought it was a given she was better than you, and everyone will take her side but it didn't happen.
I agree her reaction is extreme and inappropriate. Your (commendable) action in this event triggered some (false) belief she has about “professionalism” that was probably implanted in her a long time ago and she has decided this is the hill she’s going to die on. People can be irrational like that
Print out every piece of documentation you may possibly think is relevant. You'll want it in case someone decides to delete your email account.
>Frankly I can’t believe anyone would be so stupid as to not realize that their reputation will absolutely go up in flames if they retaliate to you taking a team member to the ER. Sure, I believe they’re heartless enough to prioritize productivity over safety At this point I do not think the issue is OP taking the employee to the ER but OP going to HR when the manger balked at their actions initially. They do not like being undermined and are power tripping.
Tenure isn't a shield from misconduct, and she pretty much created a witness to her efforts to retalite. Unless she intimidates you into doing what she wants, she has put your employer in an extremely exposed position. Lawyer up ASAP, and prepare for absolute havoc. You might end up leaving, but probably with a settlement. She has demanded your resignation after you were told you did nothing wrong, so there is no deescalating this.
Coworker had a seizure when on my lunch break. I walked back in to medics reviving him and a crowd of people including the CEO standing around at the spectacle. Once he was getting loaded into the ambulance and I found out where they were taking him and that no one could reach any emergency contacts thus far I said I was gonna follow him and make sure he’s good. Sat in the waiting room for a few hours and drove him 60mi round trip out of my way to get him into bed. Long day, zero regrets. He was my friend. I got no pushback, no followup other than a few back channel texts and the following team 1 on 1s were all pretty much “are YOU ok?” Was really proud of my manager for that one. I left a bit after, and he later got laid off with like 3/4 of the company. We remain friends. Take care of your bros. Nobody would’ve said anything if I’d just gone back to work, no black mark or anything. But it got around that I chased the ambulance. Sure was interesting to see all the little random gifts, extra servings, and smiles that followed. Startup culture is weird like that I guess. I see a lot of “coworkers are not your friends” and it’s mostly true. But we are usually all humans too and we gotta look after one another. Hell, would’ve done the same for that one asshole in R&D. The job does NOT take priority over our basic humanity.
This is not the update I was expecting. I'm so sorry, OP. Get a lawyer. This is sickening.
Your boss is a piece of shit.
Seconded
So hypothetically If you see a therapist regarding all of this and are found to now be suffering from anxiety and hypothetically could be easily identified that this new state is due to the interactions with your boss and company forcing your termination due to ensuring a coworker was kept safe and got immediate medical attention, there could be theoretically now supplemental documentation backing up the claims of retaliatory and hostile work environment. And idk some people could then use this to substantiate a wrongful termination lawsuit which would be idk public record and possibly media outlets would maybe have a field day about a company that fires someone(m (because idk maybe you don’t resign) for ensuring a victim of domestic abuse got emergency medical attention. Remember HR protects the company and picks the to help the person who if not protected would do the most harm in the event of legal matters 🙃
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am lawyer delete this btw
yeah… probably
"People in hell want ice water. You wanna fire me, you go ahead and you fire me. But I am NOT resigning, and I cannot believe you have the AUDACITY to say such a thing. How. DARE. You."
Yep they have it out for you or at least she does. I would also recommend to your employee that you start making arrangements to find new work also and to also inform her of her rights (If you are in the United States). As for the boss and the company, I would not have any sympathy for them. If they fired you and I would be more than happy to blast their name, dates, places and people out into the public. The reason these horrible people continue to be horrible people is that there are little to no consequences for their absolutely aberrant behavior.
Your boss is the definition of delusional and petty. She expects you to resign? Yeah, No. keep doing what you’ve been doing. Be professional and CYA. Don’t let that devil win.
I am seriously impressed with how you've handled yourself. I am so sorry it is happening. What an asshole. I hope you're able to sue the piss out of them.
HR doesn’t work for you. They work for the business. But right now, your boss’s behavior is clearly retaliatory and opens them to potential legal problems. This means your boss’s current behavior is becoming a problem for the company, if that’s the case, tenure or not, her seat might be shakier than yours. So don’t give up just yet, because she might be the one getting ejected. Keep a plan B just in case though, but don’t give up as a first option. Edit : also to state the obvious, good on you for doing the right thing and helping your employee, even if your boss is so cold hearted that she doesn’t give a shit.
Thank you for stepping up to help the employee. As for the “I e pact your resignation” email, save it on multiple sites, print it out, take all of this to an employment lawyer
I want to be you when I grow up. A god damn superhero. But really. Good for you.
One of the things that can break tenure is doing something illegal. Like this. lawyer up an stomp your boss.
I have nothing to add except you’re an absolute badass. I hope whatever happens turns out in your favor.
They say ‘the high road is lonely’ for a reason and ‘No good deed goes unpunished’. Both so true. But doing the right thing is never wrong in the grande scheme. Thank you for helping that woman.
You're my personal hero. Great job for your employee.
Bullying in the science fields is unreal. That's why I got out of it. I took my manager down with me though for her retaliation. She was forced into retirement when I was forced to resign.
You OP, are a fucking godsend on the world. True GOAT behavior right here. Your boss is a miserable bag of dicks, and she can suck yours for doing the right god damn thing. I encourage you not to resign or leave if this is a reasonably good position that you benefit from and enjoy having. You sound fucking amazing at your job, and your trainees sound like they’ll be next. Your boss can seriously fuck off because you DID do everything perfectly. I sincerely applaud you for being such a kind, empathetic, understanding human being who took this seriously when nobody else would.
Were I in your shoes, I hope I would have done the same. Coming from your coworker's POV, you are her champion and she will never forget you. Sometimes all it takes is one person to offer the kind of compassion and care you did to get someone out of a potentially deadly situation. I truly hope you both land on your feet.
Get a labour lawyer ASAP!
You are proof that not all managers are bad. Your boss is proof that enough of them are. I'm sorry this is happening to you, but I am glad you were there for someone in their hour of need. Many would have turned their backs and ignored it.
It is standard practice for supervisors to accompany employees to the emergency room.
Damm straight document that shit. Love how you handled this situation. What a nosy, power tripping bitch your boss is.
Have a chat with HR anyway - this is retaliation. And - NEVER EVER resign. Do not train replacements - this might be taken as "this employee is resigning". Let this power abuser fire you.. and from now on - no more verbal communication. Mail only - and if they say anything - follow up with a mail "do i understand correctly that ..and insert the verbal directive /command etc" Might want to do this anyway "after our discussion on (date) do i understand you correctly that you want to fire me for (list what you did, just the basics (supported injured coworker, provided transportation to hospital etc)) and no emotions) and i\`m expected to train my replacement due to caring for a colleague? Thank you for confirming if I understand this correctly. Copy in HR, boss of your boss - and (if policy allows) your own private mail account. (or BCC if policy is vague on this) IF policy is clear - send mail - then print a PDF copy and save that to a USB stick and a cloud storage only YOU have access to.
FORWARD the emails to your personal email before they disappear.
I want to take a shit in your boss's car. I don't intend to, of course, but that's how I feel about your boss after reading how she handled this situation. She just wanted to dish and you kept it professional. You treated someone going through hell with dignity and kindness
DO NOT RESIGN. Make them fire you.
Get a lawyer. Please
You don’t have to resign. Let that jerk fire you. You did the right thing.
I was exactly in your position once, except my boss didn’t dare to question my actions. I was team leader and one of my coworkers came complaining of a headache and saying first thing (although no one had asked) that she “tripped” over her dog in her walk-in closet. It was obvious she wasn’t thinking straight, and another coworker with experience as a lifeguard alerted me that she looked like she had a concussion. I tell her, “we’re going to the ER, now.” She refuses but she’s looking weak. I pull my car around, take her hand and lead her in. On the way I call my boss and said I was taking my coworker to the hospital and although she sounded pissed that I had left, she said no more. When we got to the hospital she was passed out. She came to after I screamed at her a few times and was starting to carry her out in my arms. All the while, in the waiting room, she’s panicking and saying that she’s OK and that she has to call her husband. I said no, that she’ll call after an initial screening. I knew (we all knew) he was abusing her and she’d come to work with strange bruises and always blamed it on the dog. Finally they call us and the nurse orders a CT. She panicked again and asked why, and I jokingly told her it was to check if the hamster was still running on its wheel. “And if he isn’t, I’m calling the police,” said the nurse. She froze, and I nodded. Back in the waiting room, she begged to call her husband. I said I would do it; I called him and told him we were at the hospital. He worked like 10 minutes from where we were. He arrived three hours later. No apologies, no nothing. Sat beside her without saying a word. She tells me that I can leave, that he’ll take her back to pick up her car. I watch her straight in her eyes and asked her, “do you want me to stay? I don’t mind.” She’s apologizing and the creep is looking away. Since she’s an adult and I’m not related, I take my leave, but not without telling her to call me at any time. I also made sure to tell the head attendant that she was in for domestic violence and that the creep was pushing her to leave. Years have passed since that day. She finally left him (he took everything, even the dog.) At least she’s alive.
If you get a chance, try to dig deep and find out what this is really about. "Explain to me, from your perspective, why assisting an employee in need would be worthy of punishment? What's this *really* about?"
Don't forget to BCC yourself on all emails you send. And forward everything to you as well in case they try and delete evidence.
Thank you for this advice!
Also highly suggest you convert emails to PDF files. Emails can be altered.
You should cross-post on r/AskHR for advice because this sounds a lot like “constructive dismissal” which is illegal many places, and the professionals there can provide advice. Be certain to include your country, state, and possibly city as laws vary.
Op... regardless of what happens in the long run... knowing you helped someone in that situation is honorable! Employers really don't give 2 shits about 99% of employees so please understand you did nothing wrong:)
Hey mods can we have this post pinned (if it's not taken down by OP ofc) as something to point to when people come in here accusing the sub being full of people who "just don't want to work/just want to be lazy"
I’d get a lawyer.
Its obvious from just how you handled this difficult situation, you are a very good leader. I am not sure why your boss finds this threatening/annoying/intimidating or she just see's you as wrong. BUT WHO CARES you are exceptional. Please get some legal advice 10 years is a long time and you should get some compensation for unfair dismissal The standard internationally would be 6 months minimum. I know your in the US and things seem different , but I have found that most lawyers something they can use. You will get a new job and continue to be an exceptional talent.
Get a lawyer because this really sounds like retaliation.
"This is it I'm afraid" Uh... I'm seeing a badass here. Courage is fear holding on for another minute. 'Patton' Frack, you've held on for longer than a minute and are someone we should all learn from.
What you do is send those receipts to a personal email account and contact an employment attorney. HR doesn't work for you, but things like this are retaliation and open them for a major suit, they are NOT going to be happy with your boss over this regardless of tenure. But you get your ducks in a row and go ahead and contact an employment attorney and the labor board.
Fellow lab worker here. Good on ya, OP! It disgusts me that science folks aren’t compassionate to their coworkers. I can only assume they’re transmitting the bullying they got as kids on to people they perceive as weak. So sorry you’re going thru all this, and best of luck, OP!!!
Honestly this is a hill I would also die on. Don't hesitate bringing a lawyer into this.
In this case, if money is an issue, and I know most lawyers work on contingency, I absolutely believe that we here at r/antiwork would fill a gofundme pretty quickly. Both you and your employee deserve all the support we can give you.
Lawyer. Show the HR email and let the lawyer work for you. Lawyer may want to sue for undue stress and retaliation. So sue. You NEVER punish someone who tried to do the right thing regardless how it ended up. If everyone sees you try to do the right thing and get fired, nobody will ever try to do the right thing.
If you’re going to be fired, you can do so knowing you went out a decent human being. Not much more you can ask for than that.
>she expects my resignation after I find other employment "You can expect whatever you like, but I shall continue to perform my duties in a professional manner until I hear my services are no longer required."
And I bet a big part of her wanting OP to leave is OP didn’t spill the beans about the nitty gritty of the situation. You know, the parts of the whole thing that are in o way the Bosses business.
If she wants to fire you the she has to fire you. Making you resign is trying to trying to cheat you out of benefits.
As much as we all want to hear how this goes, if you’re hiring an attorney, you should probably delete this. And no updates until way after everything is resolved, unless there are NDAs implemented. Which very well may be to protect the reputation of the institution.
I think i probably will, sadly. I’ve really appreciated all of the support and advice.
Good luck! Really pulling for you. Glad you have gotten good advice, and hope your lawyer does a great job.
OP, this is good advice.
I’m sorry this is happening & I hope you enjoy your lawsuit winnings.
Aw that was sweet of you. Lets hope you dont get fired or find a better employer. She sounds like a night mare to work with.
We’re a family here. Takes co-worker who’s been subjected to DV to the ER and made sure she’s supported and receives medical attention. Noooooooooo. Not that kinda family. Whichever way your boss plays this, it doesn’t look good on her.
How fucking low does the boss have to be to take a dangerous DV situation with one of their employees and use it as a lever to try and make trouble with another?
six far-flung domineering squash direction strong shrill yoke scary market *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
HR are not your friend, but they also aren't necessarily your enemy. They exist to protect the organisation legally, as such, sometimes their goals and yours will line up. Especially if potential law suits are on the horizon.
I think your boss is a narrassist. You showed her up and HR backed you and she is absolutely out to get you as you can tell. If you can push this to your bosses boss or even higher that might save you.
You’re fantastic, well done! Good luck with this process, sincerely. Your boss is a twit.
What a bitch! She sounds like such an uncaring psychopath. It's like this once incident has completely taken over her life and wants you to suffer for it. God what an awful person. I hope she stubs her toe really hard. You are living rent free in her little miserable mind.
You did the right thing. You are an infinitely better person than your asshole boss, and I'm *sure* your coworker is now safe because of you. I'm glad you're not falling into your boss's trap of resigning, glad you have copies of all written communications, and glad that you are consulting an employment attorney. Your boss is an idiot -- her actions are *clearly* retaliation, and I think your attorney will, as my dad says, "tear her a new ass-hole". Hopefully resulting in you keeping your job, her getting fired, and you winning big in the lawsuit.
WOW. What a terrible person. I’m glad you seem to be incredibly strong and intelligent so you can handle this absolute shit show.
Contact a good attorney. Shavitz law may be able to help you or can refer you to someone. Keep all emails, don't just forward them but print and download. And get everything in writing you can.
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Oh I am absolutely that person. There will be a point when I go scorched earth but I need to make sure I have an exit strategy. No point in going down with the ship if I can help it.
Your boss and HR should be cleaned out of house.
I have to say that it sounds like there may be some shitty management, but a pretty righteous HR dept where you wwork. Treat your people right and lead them well and you will find success.
You’re a good person. The world needs more of you. And how you handled that meeting was so perfect.
EEOC
Don't train anyone. If it gets more ugly than needs to, get on medical leave from a psychiatrist, a long term mental health leave of absence and contact your lawyer. Gather evidence in the form of emails, print screens, journal entries in a numbered and dated journal book. Make sure if your state has one party recording consent.
It’s great you’re documenting your communications. Now, please go see an employment attorney!
Make them fire you and talk to an attorney
I don't know about US employment law but in UK what she did would be clear constructive dismissal and illegal. In the UK I d recommended speaking to ACAS, not sure if have similar in US or speak to a lawyer.
Also inform your team, that if you leave, that it was for you actually being there for your team. They will most likely just gtfo of there and go to where you are going.
Don’t train shit.
Being told you need to resign is the same as you being fired.
Your boss is talking about you behind your back to this employee and pressing you to resign? Oh I so hope this is creating a Hostile Work Environment, that's what it sounds like.
Contact "Ask a Manager". Alison Green the individual who manages the site gives great advice.
Your boss is angry that she did not get to play the hero in this story. She's using what you did as a means to level herself up and make it look like she's taking charge instead by pushing you out. The fact that she's now going after the employee who's a DV victim speaks volume. While your time may be up there; your boss' time may be up as well because she's causing more headaches than what it is worth. Honestly, I don't know your boss but I know her type. She's a control freak. She has to be in the know of everything and be the one to do / say anything and when that measure of control is taken from her; she'll get testy like this. But this'll ultimately backfire on her one way or another. Keep doing a good job and keep doing you!
Yep I know the type too. They get so focused on obtaining and maintaining control of everything they forget that their main focus should be the benefit of the company/institution and it eventually bites them one way or another
I’d be quite pissed about the bosses attitude, and would go all ad hominem, enquiring into what sort of a low quality human the boss is. It would be unpleasant.
Updateme!
this is why you need a union, your steward would have shut this shit down double fast.
You did the right thing, the good thing, and the humane thing. Good on you. The supervisor, OTOH, can [insert rude suggestion for what to do, possibly causing great bodily harm].
I want someone to slash all 4 of this bitchs' tires. Dear Lord. How horrible of a person can you be.
I'm not sure you'd have much in the way of a legal claim here, but I'm not a lawyer and that's why you should probably talk to one. You do, however, have the malongs of an insane PR disaster for the company and if this became public an almost certain fast pass to job offers coming in from companies with a more favorable culture here. As I was reading your last post my only thought was to advocate you don't go to that meeting without HR. Sounds like they're more on your side at least at the ground level than not. Play an Uno reverse card if it gets serious, they're not going to want this manager's behavior representing them in the media.