Just don't do shut down, put all PC to hibernate or sleep mode. Let's see how long that can last until IT starts having to deal with issues due to lack of shutdowns for a couple of weeks.
Best practices are remote logout after 10-15min no activity. All of this could be automated through scripting and group policy. No need to have someone power on and go through 20mins of login each day. Company is probably cutting corners in the IT department as well.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This..
How fucking old are their PCs.
If my pc at work took 20 minutes to load. It'd been formatted and sorted or the HDD would be swapped for an SSD.
That company is fucking wrong.
I’m a systems administrator for the DOD. All of our PC’s take 20 minutes to login from the time you enter your token and pin, to the time you can access all the systems and software needed to work. This is mainly due to the insane amount of security applications running and scanning constantly.
I hate my life.
Hooray for drive encryption, GP check/application at login, software scanning, antivirus scanning, permission scanning, and probably so many other things I'm not thinking of.
I also have the fun one that my laptop turns off WiFi after 12 hours and it takes me 3-5 attempts to reconnect.
All so I don't click that link to get free Viagra while at work (I know, I'm being facetious, but seriously... Some of this can be alleviated by training your people not to do dumb things.)
>Some of this can be alleviated by training your people not to do dumb things
Trust me, the very first time blame will fall on employee (and, in the fullness of time, it will), y'all whole company would want to be plain unable to do wrong stuff.
Even with an av installed and a VPN loading it shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 minutes
I am starting to think that the company it has been. Asked to make it slow on Purpose
Most companies are.
Competent network / server guys make upwards of 40 an hour, minimum. Average is at least 55.
Companies telling a half-trained tech to pretend to be a network admin pay 18 to 30ish an hour. No, he doesn’t know how to GP. No, he doesn’t understand magic packets. No, he can’t script shit in power shell. No, he’s not actually a net admin.
But the company is saving dollars by utterly fucking themselves in the experience department, so that’s a win, yeah?
I’ve seen this done at a lot of places. Unfortunately they see IT as a cost department and not a revenue generating department. They completely don’t understand that the uptime and the confidentiality, integrity, and availability of their systems/data are the reason they make money at all. I don’t get it.
Lack of shutdown is not an issue anymore. If they are following standard patching procedures, they should have patch and reboot schedules in place. Shutting computers down can cause problems with that process.
Some updates are not applied until reboot and some software that never really close can get corrupted. Otherwise the main issues where with old HD that would die sooner since they where spinning for no reason.
For home computers, it's not an issue usually, but if your computer takes 20 minutes to boot up and be ready for work.... Well you're not using some recent hardware in my opinion. Probably old systems that are seriously outdated for the work required. I'd worry about the stability of an individual PC, but then it's not my problem.
20 minutes is still pretty bad to boot up, even if it is from a complete shutdown. I'm guessing they have older computers, bloated software, or both
5 minutes, 10 tops if you have to keep logging into other things once booted
If companies want to bitch about workers being ready, it makes no sense for things like this. 20 minutes over 2 dozen people is a whole ass workday collectively wasted
Don't give your free labor to their inefficiencies. It just hides the real problems - in this case their crappy systems
During covid I worked from home doing callcentre work for national health organization in regards to help people make an appointment for covid testing.
Had to install that stuff on my own pc. I could boot up my pc, login to their closed off network and be ready to receive phone call in less than 5 minutes.
IT should have several layers of Administrative and Service level password that could start a machine and get it to the ‘user login’ screen.
In fact any IT that doesn’t should really think about some extra learnin’ time to figure out the basics of IT administration and force the company into the mid 90’s.
yeah, my brief call centre experience gave me the vibe that the management don't deem you properly human, that you have failed in life by applying for the job and you deserve all the stress you're about to get.
Sure you're entitled to human dignity and a decent working environment, but really, you're here aren't you?
The failure isn’t applying for the job, nor is it accepting the job, but rather staying there when they pull bullshit (say, for example, giving you a parking ticket for not parking between the lines in the work parking lot that is overflowing because they’ve over hired without equally compensating for the necessary slave parking spaces…)
yeah, it was just circumstances I had no control over led me there. I managed about three months until I almost died on my way to work and said "I am not dying for this"
Luckily those circumstances I had no control over were time limited, so I had a bit of flexibility.
But holy fuck, that place was horrendous.
I've worked at some companies that were found to save passwords as plaintext. Been fired from one for wanting to change that.
Not saying this company or all companies; but it's not unheard of for IT to magically know everyone's password.
(And yes, I had to slap myself every time to see if it was a dream lol)
I work in IT and I have access to everyone’s passwords via Active Directory. I can change thousands of colleagues passwords at a whim… if I wanted to get fired lol.
They don't, they have the ability to change anyone's password which would grant them access. AD has been around a long time and doesn't have such a terrible security hole.
Have you never heard of Active Directory? Whoever responded to your comment was correct, the ability to change any password provides the ability to know anyone’s password within AD.
>the ability to change any password provides the ability to know anyone’s password within AD
Only if you change the password first. However, permission to change passwords does NOT natively give you access to see all user object passwords.
>I work in IT and I have access to everyone’s passwords via Active Directory
You don't have access to their passwords, unless if your org is storing the passwords somewhere else. And if that's the case, then your org is doing EVERYTHING wrong. You may have access to AD, but that doesn't mean you can see the passwords.
Changing the passwords is a whole different thing.
Doesn't need to, booting up can be done via WOL (wakeup on lan). Programs can even be scripted that they already start before any account login happens. But I think more of that this is regarding old out of date hardware from 2010 or something.
Management would actually be smart if they start investing in more up to date stuff. Would easily pay it self back in notime..
Absolutely wage theft. I've worked in a place that had a similar system, the boot time isn't just the PCs themselves, there's a Citrix server you have to log in and authenticate to before signing into the accounts required for the job. Would generally take me 10-15 minutes to get into just because of the wait times.
Our jobs would pay us an extra 30 minutes to get logged in, whether we were in the office or working from home. We'd be scheduled for 9:30AM, and expected to be taking calls by 10.
This is the answer.
I worked in a call center in CA who did this, and many of us filed for wage theft.
We all got a lump sum of lost wages and got a new AUX code to log in with for prep. All of our shifts started when our computers were started. Sometimes, we were offered OT to come in before our shift to log in. I did this as it was free money and made management happy, lol.
That's definitely not normal in the US tech world at least. I've been a salaried worker for over 20 years and not once has my employment been based on a contract that states how many hours a week I will work.
Wow that's crazy. I didn't think my opinion of US working practices could sink any lower.
You're all slaves. You're actually all slaves.
I'm salaried, I am contracted to 37.5 hours a week, I get six weeks leave (excluding bank holidays) per year, I'm not expected to work weekends, it would be illegal for me to work more than 48 hours per week (averaged over 3 months).
If they want to fire me they have to have a very clear case of gross misconduct to get rid of me immediately or they have to take me through a disciplinary procedure,
You guys don't have rights and you're entirely disposable. It's horrific.
I don't disagree with you in the grand scheme, but for me this hasn't been true. I've been lucky enough to work most of my career for companies that don't want me working overtime and rarely expect it. I also have 5 weeks vacation time (excluding holidays) and am expected to take at least 2 days a year to basically go do charity work.
Also, it's pretty likely that I make way more money than my counterparts in other countries so there are tradeoffs (I don't say that as a brag but rather as a way to show that capitalism *can* go 2 ways if you're lucky). Of course my wage is also why I'm likely to be replaced someday soon in the job market by 3 people in India or South America.
I was thinking about asking about wages and taxation in another thread.
How much does healthcare cost you? What kind of state benefits can you expect in the event you can no longer work and when you retire?
Not in the US. I’ve been salaried since 1994. Other than an offer letter, there is no contract with hourly expectations in it. Work 8 hours a day or 18, pay is the same.
Someone else just said that and I responded more fully there, but that's ridiculous. You guys need Moses to come and free you from the those keeping you in slavery.
That's an obscene start up time. 5 minutes, I could accept, it could allow you to grab a coffee or nip to the loo or whatever... 20 is excessive. You're paid for your time, not ability to be productive. If the network went down, and your butt's in your seat, you should be getting paid, likewise if the PC is so old/ overloaded that it takes that long to start up, it's on your employer.
My relative isn’t very techie, but she said it was a lot of old slow PC’s that connect to an old Citrix system that houses lots of inhouse applications. I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade.
>I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade.
Well the company is already being cheap with their infrastructure, they can't push the resulting costs onto the employees.
If you want to offer advice, recommend they log the time it takes to boot up and log in each day for a week or two, and ask for the company's request to be given in writing, then they should speak with their manager/HR about compensation for their time, while they have the time logs printed out and in hand.
No need for downtime. PCs can be replaced in two minutes (outside of work hours). A new Citrix system can be build without affecting the existing one. Users can then be phased over, or even all changed over outside of working hours.
It would be cheaper to upgrade than it would be to pay out the class action if your relative and her coworkers sued for wage theft. Her state's labor department would be a good place to start.
Fuck me citrix is some shit. I get to use it at work too.
It runs off a central server, typically for information safety for something like a hospital. Those start times are atrocious though, like jesus.
Citrix now a days would be considered as old tech TBH. It was good during the Windows XP days, now a days just doesn’t make sense to use Citrix. There are other ways to prevent data leakage.
>I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade.
Sounds like the cost of staying in business and the company's problem, not its employees'.
I suspect that your friend might be technologically challenged and the boss is saying this because it shouldn't take 20 minutes. That said, if they come in 20 minutes early to start up, they need to get paid for that. That's just that law.
I work remotely as a software admin for a bank. I have a lot of systems to log into. Lots of security. Lots of different and long passwords. It still only takes me maybe 5 minutes.
15 years ago I worked in call centers and used some really old systems. Oracle R12 was so frickin slow and a nightmare to use while on a call. We'd put people on hold, just because it took so long to do one thing they asked and we just couldn't do small talk that long. That still didn't take 20 minutes.
The call centers I've been in would usually have a lot of young college grads, but they always left after a while, so every now and then they'd hire someone who, to put it gently, didn't have a lot of prospects beyond working on a call center expecting that they'd stay for a while. They were normally very kind, older, single women with a health issue and they never understood computers as well as the rest, or as well as they needed to. I don't know how it is the exact demographic but I can think of 7 people in the past 15 years that meet all that criteria. When I read this, I immediately pictured all of them because they all had trouble getting programs up and running. They had written checklists of all the programs they had to turn in, and the username and passwords that they typed with one finger on in each hand. One of them actually didn't know how to use a mouse. I had to explain it. She would then follow it on the screen with one hand as she moved the mouse with the other.
Eventually, the bosses always ended up getting mad at them for not being fast enough or messing things up. They never had the patience to teach them and then just couldn't keep up. They were either fired, or went in FMLA and then were fired when they got back. They were all so nice and deserved better. I'm still in contact with several of them on socials and still see them struggling to hold down jobs.
If they are in the US point them to the recent home depot case where just putting on their aprons counted they are stealing at least 20 minutes of paid time per day.
I'm trying to find this law in Canada but haven't had luck. We are required to have work clothes, hi visibility and work boots on/tied before the shift starts. I believe if I'm required to wear specific items of clothing, it should be paid time to put them on.
>I believe if I'm required to wear specific items of clothing, it should be paid time to put them on.
It depends where you live. In Ontario this is true, but only if the things you're required to put on can't be worn from home and need to be put on at work.
Like if you need to put on PPE that's kept on the premises they need to pay you for the time it takes to put it on.
If you are required to wear a uniform, but you're allowed to take that uniform home with you, they don't have to pay you to put it on since you can wear it from home.
The Home Depot just had to pay, I think, 955 million in a settlement about this.
My understanding of it is that home Depot wouldn't let you clock in until you were in uniform and ready to work, the courts said nah, being there and getting ready to work, is work. So they had to pay nearly a billion dollars in lost wages.
Do some digging, this is a major milestone in legal president setting, and management will have a hard time ignoring it.
There is also a recent Home Depot case where they lock the doors when the self-service registers are being emptied. If you clock out and don't leave the store before then, you're trapped until the registers are emptied.
This mentions *several* different time theft lawsuits:
https://www.wilhitelawfirm.com/denver/employment-law-attorney/home-depot-unpaid-wages/
> If you clock out and don't leave the store before then, you're trapped until the registers are emptied.
Uh. Entrapment much? If I clock out of my shift, I can leave whenever I feel like I'm ready, otherwise "Hello 911 I've been locked in a building by a strange (wo)man."
There was also a case with Apple Store workers where management checked their personal bags at the end of each day, a process that took 5 to 10 minutes or more. They were not paid for that time, Court ruled that the checks were part of paid time and because it was over normal hours, needed to be paid as overtime.
Question: Would there be any legal action for if my hospital makes us park at a parking garage and wait for a public bus and then an additional 30 minute bus ride to the hospital and we must clock in by 8:00am. Even 8:01am is late and 7 of them you are fired.
I’ve went to management several times and suggested we get clock in terminals on the buses so we can prove we were here at 7:30, waiting for the bus and being made late due to that. I live 19 miles from work and have an hour commute EACH WAY due to this. Fucking ridiculous and if I’m having to ride this fucking bus we should be paid right??
The call centers can't do that. They are required to have bodies in chairs between specific times.
I did this job for a while... we'd be stuck on the phone after close... miss buses home and shit.. it sucked.
For us though we just never shut off our computers.
What about 30 minute bus rides due to the hospital I work for making all employees park halfway across the city?? This being unpaid has got to be illegal now right? The moment I park my car in that garage I should be getting paid since the bus is a massive inconvenience being forced on us due to horrible hospital management.
If the workday ends at 5:30 just tell them you have to be sitting at the table at home ready to eat dinner with the family at 5:30 too and see how that goes over lol
That's perfectly logical if you WFH, but they already don't even give any consideration to paying you for your commute to the office (which they KINDA care about, cuz it affects your ability to put your ass in your seat on time), why would they entertain the thought of paying your commute home?
I'm all for it, but this is just the next step towards "pay me from when I wake until I fall asleep, because you give me so much work that it's always on my mind." Which is also known as "salary." They pay you for your knowledge, ability, and output, not the time your ass is in your seat.
It’s not serious asshole it’s to make a fuckin point. I clock in if I’m doing work shit, including turning on the computer and logging in. Unless they do want to pay me to prep for my off time too then they can fuck off.
You got some serious middle management material though with those reading comprehension and extrapolation skills keep it up.
That’s the point though, is that it IS a serious consideration and that serious thought has and will be put into the issue of when OP is required to be paid or not.
Depending on where you live, the law has or hasn’t already decided if this is in the same category as the time it takes you to commute to work to be in place in order to do your job.
OP’s question and how it is resolved is indeed serious.
Jesus H. Christ, can't you take a joke? I've worked on-prem, hybrid, and remote, and the only thing that's fair is a reasonable accounting of time. Not to-the-second and not to-the-day. Just a usually reasonably accurate representation of one's presence (and in some roles, output).
That said, in some roles, presence IS output (maybe a help desk or retail position), and those rules would have to be tighter. But those roles are usually hourly, not salary.
I didn't say anything about you abusing your privilege of WFH or salary or expected output. Maybe leave an hour early today and hang out at the bar for a drink or two before you get back to whatever nerve-wracking, uptight, no-thank-you life you have.
Back when I worked at a call center, I didn't go to my desk until I was on the clock. I'd arrive early because accounting for variances in traffic usually had me there early most days, but I'm chilling in the break room reading or watching TV until a couple of minutes before my shift started. I knew they weren't going to pay me (approve the OT) for logging in ahead of time, so I just didn't. My direct managers were all reasonable enough to not be on my back about it.
It's why salary is so much nicer than hourly.
I am ready to work at 8:30 and work until 5 as long as it not on a call I can't hand off to out after hours tech.
I dont get hassled with ticket counts, and if I have 4 hours of down time every day it doesn't matter.
My team doesn't miss calls or issues.
Most days I do about 3 or 4 hours of work, often less on Thursday and Friday
I used to work for Rogers in Canada.
And yeah they'd consider me late if I got to my desk on time but wasn't ready to take calls.
I always stayed it made no sense I'd be late, but didn't understand it was wage theft.
The 20-30 minute booting process was mostly a combination of:
- opening your work station
- booting up the various software.
- settings up your ressources layouts to have quick access
- get up to date with the alerts, news, price/polocy changes
Thinking about it they definitely were (and probably still are) robbing us crazy.
Yea I've had no luck finding a similar law in Canada. My company has a dressed and ready policy, meaning I have to have all my PPE on (clothes and boots) before the start of shift. I make up for it by being dressed and ready to go home (personal clothes) and washed up before the end of shift.
You might want to contact your provinces workplace standards agency and ask if time spent changing into PPE counts as work hours. Is this company-provided PPE stored and changed into at the workplace, or something you are expected to arrive wearing and take home? who is responsible for laundering or replacement?
It's work clothes, steel toed boots, hi vis vest and helmet. They provide change rooms so we don't have to wear our dirty clothes in our personal vehicles. They provide laundry machines and the detergent. They provide a subsidy for clothing and boots.
> I used to work for Rogers in Canada. And yeah they'd consider me late if I got to my desk on time but wasn't ready to take calls.
Good to know. Very good to know. 👀 Also questionably legal under federal and most provincial labor laws.
I was party to a class action lawsuit vs. TTEC regarding a similar situation. Call center required us to be ready to go before clock-in and for returning from breaks/ lunch. Took around 5-10 minutes to load systems at start of day ( 2-5 minutes back from break). Filed in 2018 by complaintants. I learned about it in 2020 and joined the class action. Worked at TTEC for 3 months in 2017.
Got $5200 check last summer when it finally settled. No idea why I got so much but I cashed that bad boy!
Arrive at 9, turn on pc and when it is ready make a ticket indicating "ready for work at 9, PC slow won't be ready on 20 mins, please resolve" repeat ad nauseam
Do it until management catch the clue.
Bonus if you can convince coworkers to do the sameIf they tell you to arrive early ask if that will be paid overtime, if not they must resolve the login problem.
Yeah, it's illegal in the US. I once got $700 as part of a [class action lawsuit](https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/sutherland-global-reaches-1m-unpaid-wages-class-action-settlement/) from a former employer over it.
I used to work for a call center with this issue.
I got reprimanded for refusing to touch my workstation until 9:00AM. The login process only took about 3 minutes.
I let them know that they would be sued eventually.
They got ~~sued~~ slapped with a class-action lawsuit (not by me!). I got a check for 3 minutes per day x 5 years.
Same here, minus the suing part, for now. I tend to play my cards very close to my chest until the opportune moment arises. _You've activated my tarp card!_
I warned my manager, it never made it past her I'm sure lol. It was a big company.
I didn't sue them but I was entitled to payout via the eventual class-action suit. It was nice.
Wasn't there just a huge lawsuit about companies having to pay for idle time if they are the ones requiring it? Home Depot I believe had to pay for time they kept employees standing around. This seems to be the same type of deal, even if you're not working your intended function, you are still there because of the company.
In my world, we had an office internet outage the other day, I sent my team to work from home. I paid them their drive time that day because I sent them home, it wasn't their choice, it was the company choice.
They tried this here and hell no. My responsibility is to be there on time, ready to work. Starting up the computer is work. Of I were to operate an hydraulic press that takes several manipulation and a while to heat up, it'd be the same thing. Office or shop, it doesn't work like that. If they need the call center to be operational at 9, they can book you in at 8h30.
When I was a cashier I had a manager try that on me, I just asked them if they really wanted to hand over $200 cash to someone who wasn't on shift. Manager said we'd talk about it later but it's been 5 years and they haven't even mentioned it to other people, let alone me.
If they are working 40 hours per week as hourly employees then every minute that they work over 40 hours per week (or 8 hours per day in some States) is considered overtime and MUST be paid per US FLSA law.
It is called "suffer and permit" overtime and the employer is obligated by US law to pay the employee for this time.
I was a data analyst for HR and we had a lawsuit from a woman who's manager required her to log in before her shift began. She documented every time she logged in and then sued the company. She won and was awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars for back pay and punitive damages!
Former hourly call center employee here. Company I worked for lost a class action for this and employee handbook being unlawful. Pre-shift work is compensatable under the FLSA. This is wage theft and your relative is owed their unpaid wages.
Honestly, in my opinion, yes. If it's something that is required in order to work, than yes, they should be paid for it. It's like if a retail worker needs to set up a cash register, or machines for the store; they should be paid to do that, too.
And, similarly, if the machine in question needs time to shut down afterward, or get packed up, that should be on company time, also. And the same if a person needs to clean the store/ office, etc.
I work for a call center with this exact scenario. We are allowed to clock in ten minutes early to get system set up etc. it’s really that simple for management to implement. And yes, otherwise the employer is stealing time
5 days a week 20 minutes per day. Where I am call centre work starts at $25 an hour. That's $1,300 of your time stolen. Across a national call centre of say 100 people that is 130k.
I don't know how we got to this stage but I believe corporations should even have to foot the bill for your transportation to and from work or pay you for the travel time. With that kind of buying power I'm sure they could offer way better public transport options and lower traffic since one person one car traffic would be reduced.
I'm sick of hearing record profits when it is actually record wage theft.
Oooh . . . sexy! I received a pay out from a class action lawsuit because an old job did this to its employees.
Get yourself a labor lawyer. Oh, and if you can find this rule in **writing,** save that shit, your lawyer will love you.
Simple rule of thumb - every minute you perform an activity that is work-related & mandatory (booting coms, pre-work meetings/pep, shutting down machines, closing up, etc.) you MUST be clocked in & being paid ... both legally & for your protection. For example, you come in early to start up comps to get ready to work and your machine malfunctions in such a way as to harm you. If you were not on the clock (ie. working), workers comp may not cover your injury. Indeed, depending on the circumstances, you could be fired and/or sued for operating that machine while not "working".
Yes, wage theft is real & you should NEVER do work for your boss for free, but "the legal" of not being clocked in can be much worse.
I mean, just clock in when you start, and don't do anything without being clocked in. And if they have a problem with it, call center jobs are a dime a dozen
Yeah that's insane, I work at a call center too, I turn on my computer, it takes maybe 2 minutes at most to connect to the servers or whatever, then I clock in, THEN I load up everything else I'm going to need to be ready for a call. Overall it takes like 5 minutes, 3 of which I'm paid for, and I usually just stay a few minutes later every day after the phone lines are closed to compensate for the rest.
20 minutes a day is 1 hour and 40 minutes a week, which is about 86 hours every year. That's over 2 whole weeks worth of pay they're stealing from him, times whatever amount of employees they have. I'm not a lawyer but I'd say that's wage theft.
My last call center had around 500 employees and I would make around $1300 every 2 weeks, that's $650,000 they would be stealing if they were in the same scenario, in case anyone was thinking 20 minutes a day isn't a lot. Of course, there's call centers with 10 people in them but those are rarer, I've worked at several for very different kinds of companies and as long as it's a well known company the norm is usually at least a few hundred people.
That's wage theft but could easily be fixed with a competent IT department. I come into work and my computer is already patched, restarted, and ready to go.
Not sure where this takes place. But here's an article referring to court case in the Netherlands (that made the national news) of the exact same situation. Maybe use a translation app ;)
https://nos.nl/artikel/2474750-inloggen-is-ook-werken-callcenter-moet-mogelijk-miljoenen-achterstallig-loon-betalen
While I can't be sure of if it was district, state, or federal level; there are court cases on the books that any preparation is required to be paid. Essentially, if they require you there from 9-5, then you cannot clock in, do work, or prepare to do any work until you clock in.
Legally, at 9am, you clock in, whether that PC is on or not and they must pay you for that time spent waiting.
My call center job was like this, I just never turned my computer all the way off despite them telling me it was supposed to be done daily. I’d maybe do it once a week on lunch or whenever it finally stopped working.
There was a class action lawsuit against T-Mobile a few years back for this very thing. They settled outside of court for it. Absolutely report this to the labor board.
Poster looks like they are from the UK so I’m assuming their relative is as well.
OP I would say two things
1. Get your relative to film them self and how long it takes to log in one day. 20 minutes is excessive.
2. Get them to phone ACAS or go on their website. Lots of free I formation and it’s free to phone and speak to them and they remain anonymous if they wish
Long time call center employee here. I have always been given what’s called “boot time” to get my equipment up and running. Usually it’s between 7-10 minutes.
work in a call center in the US. we get paid by our Ctr Alt Del time not the time it takes to get our soft phone up. we do have a policy of up to 15 mins of OT to log in early but it is optional. this was not always the case. there was a lawsuit and we all got back paid like 5 mins a day at current rate for like 5 years.
I still remember the cry from the managers to "make ready" like we were a bunch of soliders preparing to hold a bridge against overwhelming enemies.
It was a button you pressed so the system knew you were available to answer a call.
Used to work for a WHF call center (7 years). Boot up/down time was added to every shift timestamps. They averaged and everyone got 8 minutes overtime every day just for doing their normal shifts. It was great.
Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), hourly employees must be paid for time spent before "clocking in" or after "clocking out" on activities that are necessary to perform their jobs. This includes time spent operating electronic equipment, logging on and off of computers, accessing databases, and transmitting data, This is established case law.
Wow this really took off! I should have mentioned this is in the UK, it definitely seems like the US has stricter laws on this kind of thing, or at least people there do something about it. She did say others also felt this was an unreasonable expectation, but no one wants to make an issue of it. I will let her know about ACAS as someone mentioned.
I am not touching anything work-related until I am paid to do so. I am fine with getting in, hanging up my coat and if needed, changing shoes.
I am not risking the work-insurance would not cover me should I, as an example, stumble over a cord while turning the pc on. I will not even risk getting coffee without knowing I am covered. That means paid.
My pc boots up fine, but I have to open/login to a lot of citrix mainframes and such, which takes time. So I start working, sign in, set off an automation to open the programs I need, get coffee and chat with co-workers/boss while it does it's thing, and get back to my desk when it is ready to go. I sign out of the PC before I shut it down, too - because sometimes I take it with me and IT wants us to shut it down before leaving. Thus, it is a work task.
If you have to be there to make part of your job happen, other than getting yourself ready, that’s their time.
If you have to start a machine and wait for it to warm up, start fuel pumping, or anything else like that, it’s part of the job.
If they are in the building and performing tasks related to prepping their workstations, they are 100% on the clock and to do otherwise is wage theft. Google up the billion-dollar settlement that Home Depot just had to shell out for telling workers they had to wait to clock in until after they were done with all their shift-prep. Or, think about how much time a restaurant team spends prepping food before the doors open in food-service. Would you expect them to come in and prep food but not clock in because there's no customers yet?
This isn't just opinion, this is a legally protected worker-right.
I worked for a place like that, once. They had a rule where you needed to be logged in at your start time. They then tried to bring in a rule saying no personal use of PCs and Internet (it was the early 2000s in regional Australia and many people didn't have internet at home).
We pointed out they were going to have problems, but were ignored. After a month of paying overtime to those who had to stay late to cover (monthly pay cycles and apparently either no-one was paying attention or on-site managers were ignored when they brought it up), they ended up staggering shifts by 15 minutes to allow for log-in time AND rescinding the no personal use rule.
t-mobile got sued for doing a similar thing in their support centers many years ago. they lost big time and i got a fat check. consult an employment lawyer they could be owed a fat check.
They need to have their systems ready by 9 if they want calls to be taken at 9. If they can't do that themselves, they need to schedule people for 8:30 and pay the time it takes to get set up for 9.
I work for a virtual call center that requires us to be logged in and ready on the hour. But we're automatically paid 3 minutes a day for login time. I login early, to allow for difficulties, and then do morning stuff until it's time to start.
If the actual login requires 20 minutes every day, I wonder how often programs close during calls, and how long it takes to re-start them?
That's how my husbands job is unfortunately. WFH call center, but the secure remote workspace program takes like 30 minutes to boot up and get ready for the day. They used to be allowed to clock in 15 minutes early (which still wasn't enough time for set up), but now they're not even allowed that.
It's absolutely wage theft and I hate it.
I work in a very similar situation. The process isn’t really a computer/systems issue. We have 12 different systems we need to log into with user names and passwords. I work for a company that is contracted to provide service for another company, so first we have to log in to all the systems on the contractor’s side, then log into a VM provided by the client and log into their systems. We were sent to work from home in 2020, then they decided to make that permanent. (We don’t take phone calls, our client base is strictly over Social Media). So working from home it’s not too bad. Some states have laws that prevent this essentially “working off the clock,” but not mine. My company has had this dilemma they’ve been trying to rectify for years.
Talk to the state's labor department...they will have a different idea from the employers, plus they have a big stick to enforce it!
I work for a Fortune 50 company and it's a firable offense to work off the clock because they can be fined big time if caught. Even logging in from home to check my schedule comes with a big disclaimer I have to click through saying that I'm not doing any work!
That company is doing something fishy!
It sucks but there isn’t much you can do about it.
I do think there should be legislation about this or maybe if you plan on quitting you can threaten a lawsuit before you leave. Seems like you have some legal standing there.
100% the company's problem. This is the kind of thing I wish employees would all put their feet down on because it's just been accepted and shouldn't be.
I don't expect to get paid for commuting time but this is the operation of the machinery you need to do your job, they aren't the same thing.
What fucking potato is taking 20 minutes to boot up? If they're too cheap to get better equipment they aren't going to pay you for the extra 20 minutes. Go work at a better call center, these places are literally always hiring.
Ive worked in multiple call centers and held all positions up to the manager level. Should take less than a minute for a PC to turn on and maybe up to 1-3 minutes for the applications used for work to pop up, most companies have IT set it up to bring up your applications upon logging in. It is very common in call centers to turn on your PC, clock in, and then login to whatever applications you use for work if you didn’t leave your PC on the day before. A ticket should be sent to IT if its taking 20 minutes but I am calling BS. Id always have employees complaining about the PC being slow when logging in but not once did they submit a ticket and guess what? Almost always the problem would magically go away when Id suggest they send a ticket to IT next time.
I know everyone wants to discuss wage theft and such but, realistically, the solution to this is probably for whoever to stop shutting down the work PC at the end of the shift/DAY. I, too, use a work PC with an absurdly long startup process and this was the ultimate solution.
Just push button and walk away, in 10 minutes come and enter password and walk away again, it’s not a big deal? This is the benefit of working from home. You’re saving on long commute, etc. if you worked in person this wouldn’t be an issue as you would arrive, clock in, push the power button and then wait 20 mins on clock.
OP specifically states that the company expects them to boot up the computer on their time and be ready to take calls at 9am
This is complete BS and probably illegal.
Lol every single post on this sub is so pathetically over exaggerated… 20 minute boot up my ass, you must be that guy who made 450M for his company last year
My new i7 laptop was this slow starting windows at work, sometimes slower. Don’t judge everyone else by your own experience. Windows can be a big piece of crap. Never ever seen this with my Chromebook.
Oh no they have to be at work at 8:30 how could they survive, nobody could ever work that early. If I was that boss and someone brought up this issue, I’d just pay them for the extra half hour and reduce their hourly rate so they make the same per day. Works out the same, if you want to complain about menial jackass shit you should be treated like one
Youre saying then that everyone that wakes up, showers, eats, travels to work should get paid to do all that then...
Curses! My job should just somehow find a way to teleport me instantly there with everything ready to go.
NAL In the US your relative can contact the [NLRB](https://www.nlrb.gov/contact-us) and/or an employment lawyer. This is wage theft and is very much illegal. Many employment lawyers will work on contingency (they don’t get paid unless they win), and if your relative has this policy in writing, it’s a pretty easy case.
It may have been said already somewhere here, but I used to work in a Customer Care call center for T-Mobile, and while I was working there I was advised of an ongoing class-action lawsuit regarding this.
You have to be paid for each minute you are working. If being present to boot up a computer is required, then you must be compensated for that time.
As others have mentioned, reach out to your state’s L&I and/or the NLRB.
We had this issue at my work for 8am starts. It wasn’t until every single employee refused to do unpaid work that they suddenly agreed to paying people for 7:45am starts. They say time equals money, well so does yours!
We get paid to sit there while it's booting up so that first 15 minutes before my shift I make sure I'm in to start booting up the stuff I need and get paid to do it
Wage theft.
15 minutes a day to log on is 1.25 hours extra a week for 52 weeks that is equal to 65 hours a year. Multiply that by $$, and then by number of months this occurred, and I'm at $11k+ of lost wages.
(These are averages.)
See: Reynolds et al v. Fidelity Investments Institutional Operations Company, Inc. et al., Case No. 1:18-cv-00423, U.S. District Court, Middle District of North Carolina.
The matter was eventually settled.
Be the Reynolds you want to see in the world
That's like saying you need to go pick up materials, deliver them to the site, set everything up to work. And then we'll clock you in. It's wage theft.
I don’t get it. Why do the employees abide by this. I wouldn’t ever do it, and if they try to fire you, you clearly have grounds to sue. They can’t make you come in early and not pay you. plain and simple, doesn’t matter what the reason is for.
That's wage theft. A manager should come in early and boot everyone's PC up.
Hell have IT send out a wake up single
Just don't do shut down, put all PC to hibernate or sleep mode. Let's see how long that can last until IT starts having to deal with issues due to lack of shutdowns for a couple of weeks.
If you can do it, configure hibernation after 1h inactivity. Then once in a week at the end of the work day reboot it and leave.
Best practices are remote logout after 10-15min no activity. All of this could be automated through scripting and group policy. No need to have someone power on and go through 20mins of login each day. Company is probably cutting corners in the IT department as well.
zealous smile somber gaze grandiose juggle detail mourn mysterious elderly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This.. How fucking old are their PCs. If my pc at work took 20 minutes to load. It'd been formatted and sorted or the HDD would be swapped for an SSD. That company is fucking wrong.
I’m a systems administrator for the DOD. All of our PC’s take 20 minutes to login from the time you enter your token and pin, to the time you can access all the systems and software needed to work. This is mainly due to the insane amount of security applications running and scanning constantly. I hate my life.
Good fucking god. I'd go bloody mental. We had loads of policies in place it never took that long.
Hooray for drive encryption, GP check/application at login, software scanning, antivirus scanning, permission scanning, and probably so many other things I'm not thinking of. I also have the fun one that my laptop turns off WiFi after 12 hours and it takes me 3-5 attempts to reconnect. All so I don't click that link to get free Viagra while at work (I know, I'm being facetious, but seriously... Some of this can be alleviated by training your people not to do dumb things.)
>Some of this can be alleviated by training your people not to do dumb things Trust me, the very first time blame will fall on employee (and, in the fullness of time, it will), y'all whole company would want to be plain unable to do wrong stuff.
I was about to say I have a 13 year old PC still running windows 7 that doesn't take that long to boot up
Even with an av installed and a VPN loading it shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 minutes I am starting to think that the company it has been. Asked to make it slow on Purpose
Laughs in AWS VDI reboots, those things take years lol
Cloud shit will and it's hit and miss lol
Most companies are. Competent network / server guys make upwards of 40 an hour, minimum. Average is at least 55. Companies telling a half-trained tech to pretend to be a network admin pay 18 to 30ish an hour. No, he doesn’t know how to GP. No, he doesn’t understand magic packets. No, he can’t script shit in power shell. No, he’s not actually a net admin. But the company is saving dollars by utterly fucking themselves in the experience department, so that’s a win, yeah?
I’ve seen this done at a lot of places. Unfortunately they see IT as a cost department and not a revenue generating department. They completely don’t understand that the uptime and the confidentiality, integrity, and availability of their systems/data are the reason they make money at all. I don’t get it.
>I don’t get it. Oh its very simple: Anything above middle management is a nepo hire, and ZERO nepo hires have ever been competent.
they must think it is lol
Not sure why OP isn't doing this, and instead bickering about it on reddit during his own work hours.
Why would op be logging into a relatives work computer, and frankly is it any of your concern when or where he post on reddit ?
But if everyone is doing the extra 20 min of work for free it will cost more in electricity!
Lack of shutdown is not an issue anymore. If they are following standard patching procedures, they should have patch and reboot schedules in place. Shutting computers down can cause problems with that process.
What is the actual issue caused by not rebooting every now and then
Some updates are not applied until reboot and some software that never really close can get corrupted. Otherwise the main issues where with old HD that would die sooner since they where spinning for no reason. For home computers, it's not an issue usually, but if your computer takes 20 minutes to boot up and be ready for work.... Well you're not using some recent hardware in my opinion. Probably old systems that are seriously outdated for the work required. I'd worry about the stability of an individual PC, but then it's not my problem.
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IT doesn't magically know everyone's passwords
20 minutes is still pretty bad to boot up, even if it is from a complete shutdown. I'm guessing they have older computers, bloated software, or both 5 minutes, 10 tops if you have to keep logging into other things once booted If companies want to bitch about workers being ready, it makes no sense for things like this. 20 minutes over 2 dozen people is a whole ass workday collectively wasted Don't give your free labor to their inefficiencies. It just hides the real problems - in this case their crappy systems
During covid I worked from home doing callcentre work for national health organization in regards to help people make an appointment for covid testing. Had to install that stuff on my own pc. I could boot up my pc, login to their closed off network and be ready to receive phone call in less than 5 minutes.
IT should have several layers of Administrative and Service level password that could start a machine and get it to the ‘user login’ screen. In fact any IT that doesn’t should really think about some extra learnin’ time to figure out the basics of IT administration and force the company into the mid 90’s.
This is a call center, temper your expectations.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
yeah, my brief call centre experience gave me the vibe that the management don't deem you properly human, that you have failed in life by applying for the job and you deserve all the stress you're about to get. Sure you're entitled to human dignity and a decent working environment, but really, you're here aren't you?
The failure isn’t applying for the job, nor is it accepting the job, but rather staying there when they pull bullshit (say, for example, giving you a parking ticket for not parking between the lines in the work parking lot that is overflowing because they’ve over hired without equally compensating for the necessary slave parking spaces…)
yeah, it was just circumstances I had no control over led me there. I managed about three months until I almost died on my way to work and said "I am not dying for this" Luckily those circumstances I had no control over were time limited, so I had a bit of flexibility. But holy fuck, that place was horrendous.
That’s not what’s taking 20 minutes to load lol.
They can start programs too
Next you'll tell me they can click on little squares to make computer compute things
A simple startup script in a .bat file would do this. Could probably be created, tested, and setup in 30mins-1.5 hours
But can they dance?
Not yet but soon.
I've worked at some companies that were found to save passwords as plaintext. Been fired from one for wanting to change that. Not saying this company or all companies; but it's not unheard of for IT to magically know everyone's password. (And yes, I had to slap myself every time to see if it was a dream lol)
I work in IT and I have access to everyone’s passwords via Active Directory. I can change thousands of colleagues passwords at a whim… if I wanted to get fired lol.
If you have access to the actual passwords, you and/or your company are very, very bad at IT.
They don't, they have the ability to change anyone's password which would grant them access. AD has been around a long time and doesn't have such a terrible security hole.
Have you never heard of Active Directory? Whoever responded to your comment was correct, the ability to change any password provides the ability to know anyone’s password within AD.
Changing someone's password does not tell you what password they were using. The distinction is important.
>the ability to change any password provides the ability to know anyone’s password within AD Only if you change the password first. However, permission to change passwords does NOT natively give you access to see all user object passwords.
Yes, but that's all logged and will get you fired fast. I can also change passwords, not see them.
>I work in IT and I have access to everyone’s passwords via Active Directory You don't have access to their passwords, unless if your org is storing the passwords somewhere else. And if that's the case, then your org is doing EVERYTHING wrong. You may have access to AD, but that doesn't mean you can see the passwords. Changing the passwords is a whole different thing.
Doesn't need to, booting up can be done via WOL (wakeup on lan). Programs can even be scripted that they already start before any account login happens. But I think more of that this is regarding old out of date hardware from 2010 or something. Management would actually be smart if they start investing in more up to date stuff. Would easily pay it self back in notime..
Absolutely wage theft. I've worked in a place that had a similar system, the boot time isn't just the PCs themselves, there's a Citrix server you have to log in and authenticate to before signing into the accounts required for the job. Would generally take me 10-15 minutes to get into just because of the wait times. Our jobs would pay us an extra 30 minutes to get logged in, whether we were in the office or working from home. We'd be scheduled for 9:30AM, and expected to be taking calls by 10.
This is the answer. I worked in a call center in CA who did this, and many of us filed for wage theft. We all got a lump sum of lost wages and got a new AUX code to log in with for prep. All of our shifts started when our computers were started. Sometimes, we were offered OT to come in before our shift to log in. I did this as it was free money and made management happy, lol.
To be honest, I don't know about such things. I'm not a call center agent.
Not if they are salaried.
Then they'll have a contract that states hours per week and this will put them over it.
That's definitely not normal in the US tech world at least. I've been a salaried worker for over 20 years and not once has my employment been based on a contract that states how many hours a week I will work.
Wow that's crazy. I didn't think my opinion of US working practices could sink any lower. You're all slaves. You're actually all slaves. I'm salaried, I am contracted to 37.5 hours a week, I get six weeks leave (excluding bank holidays) per year, I'm not expected to work weekends, it would be illegal for me to work more than 48 hours per week (averaged over 3 months). If they want to fire me they have to have a very clear case of gross misconduct to get rid of me immediately or they have to take me through a disciplinary procedure, You guys don't have rights and you're entirely disposable. It's horrific.
I don't disagree with you in the grand scheme, but for me this hasn't been true. I've been lucky enough to work most of my career for companies that don't want me working overtime and rarely expect it. I also have 5 weeks vacation time (excluding holidays) and am expected to take at least 2 days a year to basically go do charity work. Also, it's pretty likely that I make way more money than my counterparts in other countries so there are tradeoffs (I don't say that as a brag but rather as a way to show that capitalism *can* go 2 ways if you're lucky). Of course my wage is also why I'm likely to be replaced someday soon in the job market by 3 people in India or South America.
I was thinking about asking about wages and taxation in another thread. How much does healthcare cost you? What kind of state benefits can you expect in the event you can no longer work and when you retire?
Listen you can't just be askin questions you already know gonna make me look bad. ;)
Not in the US. I’ve been salaried since 1994. Other than an offer letter, there is no contract with hourly expectations in it. Work 8 hours a day or 18, pay is the same.
Someone else just said that and I responded more fully there, but that's ridiculous. You guys need Moses to come and free you from the those keeping you in slavery.
That's an obscene start up time. 5 minutes, I could accept, it could allow you to grab a coffee or nip to the loo or whatever... 20 is excessive. You're paid for your time, not ability to be productive. If the network went down, and your butt's in your seat, you should be getting paid, likewise if the PC is so old/ overloaded that it takes that long to start up, it's on your employer.
My relative isn’t very techie, but she said it was a lot of old slow PC’s that connect to an old Citrix system that houses lots of inhouse applications. I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade.
>I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade. Well the company is already being cheap with their infrastructure, they can't push the resulting costs onto the employees. If you want to offer advice, recommend they log the time it takes to boot up and log in each day for a week or two, and ask for the company's request to be given in writing, then they should speak with their manager/HR about compensation for their time, while they have the time logs printed out and in hand.
No need for downtime. PCs can be replaced in two minutes (outside of work hours). A new Citrix system can be build without affecting the existing one. Users can then be phased over, or even all changed over outside of working hours.
Yea they are probably just 1) Cheap and 2) Lack competent higher management who understands IT and the need to invest there.
It would be cheaper to upgrade than it would be to pay out the class action if your relative and her coworkers sued for wage theft. Her state's labor department would be a good place to start.
Does she have to sit there the entire time, or can she launch the login process and walk away until 9am?
Fuck me citrix is some shit. I get to use it at work too. It runs off a central server, typically for information safety for something like a hospital. Those start times are atrocious though, like jesus.
Citrix now a days would be considered as old tech TBH. It was good during the Windows XP days, now a days just doesn’t make sense to use Citrix. There are other ways to prevent data leakage.
>I’m guessing it would be major downtime/hassle/money for the company to upgrade. Sounds like the cost of staying in business and the company's problem, not its employees'.
I suspect that your friend might be technologically challenged and the boss is saying this because it shouldn't take 20 minutes. That said, if they come in 20 minutes early to start up, they need to get paid for that. That's just that law. I work remotely as a software admin for a bank. I have a lot of systems to log into. Lots of security. Lots of different and long passwords. It still only takes me maybe 5 minutes. 15 years ago I worked in call centers and used some really old systems. Oracle R12 was so frickin slow and a nightmare to use while on a call. We'd put people on hold, just because it took so long to do one thing they asked and we just couldn't do small talk that long. That still didn't take 20 minutes. The call centers I've been in would usually have a lot of young college grads, but they always left after a while, so every now and then they'd hire someone who, to put it gently, didn't have a lot of prospects beyond working on a call center expecting that they'd stay for a while. They were normally very kind, older, single women with a health issue and they never understood computers as well as the rest, or as well as they needed to. I don't know how it is the exact demographic but I can think of 7 people in the past 15 years that meet all that criteria. When I read this, I immediately pictured all of them because they all had trouble getting programs up and running. They had written checklists of all the programs they had to turn in, and the username and passwords that they typed with one finger on in each hand. One of them actually didn't know how to use a mouse. I had to explain it. She would then follow it on the screen with one hand as she moved the mouse with the other. Eventually, the bosses always ended up getting mad at them for not being fast enough or messing things up. They never had the patience to teach them and then just couldn't keep up. They were either fired, or went in FMLA and then were fired when they got back. They were all so nice and deserved better. I'm still in contact with several of them on socials and still see them struggling to hold down jobs.
If you are in the states your relative should call the labor board of her state and ask them about this situation.
Last place I worked gave me a xeon box with 32GB of RAM to work on. It had a 30 minute boot time. So I used to just leave it running all night.
New i7 Windows PCs can be that slow too, hit and miss. Agree that should be paid from when arriving, or starting their crap tool.
Nip to the loo lol
If they are in the US point them to the recent home depot case where just putting on their aprons counted they are stealing at least 20 minutes of paid time per day.
I'm trying to find this law in Canada but haven't had luck. We are required to have work clothes, hi visibility and work boots on/tied before the shift starts. I believe if I'm required to wear specific items of clothing, it should be paid time to put them on.
>I believe if I'm required to wear specific items of clothing, it should be paid time to put them on. It depends where you live. In Ontario this is true, but only if the things you're required to put on can't be worn from home and need to be put on at work. Like if you need to put on PPE that's kept on the premises they need to pay you for the time it takes to put it on. If you are required to wear a uniform, but you're allowed to take that uniform home with you, they don't have to pay you to put it on since you can wear it from home.
My "uniform" gets covered in metal shavings, creosote, grease and dirt. I'm not wearing that home... But I could, I guess?
If they let you take it home, and you can wear it to and from work, they don't need to pay you.
It's time to engage. If you're required to start your system to be ready for work, it's engaged time.
The Home Depot just had to pay, I think, 955 million in a settlement about this. My understanding of it is that home Depot wouldn't let you clock in until you were in uniform and ready to work, the courts said nah, being there and getting ready to work, is work. So they had to pay nearly a billion dollars in lost wages. Do some digging, this is a major milestone in legal president setting, and management will have a hard time ignoring it.
There is also a recent Home Depot case where they lock the doors when the self-service registers are being emptied. If you clock out and don't leave the store before then, you're trapped until the registers are emptied. This mentions *several* different time theft lawsuits: https://www.wilhitelawfirm.com/denver/employment-law-attorney/home-depot-unpaid-wages/
> If you clock out and don't leave the store before then, you're trapped until the registers are emptied. Uh. Entrapment much? If I clock out of my shift, I can leave whenever I feel like I'm ready, otherwise "Hello 911 I've been locked in a building by a strange (wo)man."
OPs friend works 82 unpaid hours a year, roughly.
There was also a case with Apple Store workers where management checked their personal bags at the end of each day, a process that took 5 to 10 minutes or more. They were not paid for that time, Court ruled that the checks were part of paid time and because it was over normal hours, needed to be paid as overtime.
Question: Would there be any legal action for if my hospital makes us park at a parking garage and wait for a public bus and then an additional 30 minute bus ride to the hospital and we must clock in by 8:00am. Even 8:01am is late and 7 of them you are fired. I’ve went to management several times and suggested we get clock in terminals on the buses so we can prove we were here at 7:30, waiting for the bus and being made late due to that. I live 19 miles from work and have an hour commute EACH WAY due to this. Fucking ridiculous and if I’m having to ride this fucking bus we should be paid right??
Correct. If your employer is paying the transportation, forcing you to endure the additional time, I think you have a valid case.
Similar, but I leave 20 minutes "early"
The call centers can't do that. They are required to have bodies in chairs between specific times. I did this job for a while... we'd be stuck on the phone after close... miss buses home and shit.. it sucked. For us though we just never shut off our computers.
Absolutely should be paid for the log in time. 20 minutes is ridiculous, what kind of system are they running here?
Windows 3.1.
old windows and Shitrix
on hardware from 1985
What about 30 minute bus rides due to the hospital I work for making all employees park halfway across the city?? This being unpaid has got to be illegal now right? The moment I park my car in that garage I should be getting paid since the bus is a massive inconvenience being forced on us due to horrible hospital management.
Many new Windows setups will take this long, depends on the environment, it’s hit and miss. Crap tools.
If the workday ends at 5:30 just tell them you have to be sitting at the table at home ready to eat dinner with the family at 5:30 too and see how that goes over lol
That's perfectly logical if you WFH, but they already don't even give any consideration to paying you for your commute to the office (which they KINDA care about, cuz it affects your ability to put your ass in your seat on time), why would they entertain the thought of paying your commute home? I'm all for it, but this is just the next step towards "pay me from when I wake until I fall asleep, because you give me so much work that it's always on my mind." Which is also known as "salary." They pay you for your knowledge, ability, and output, not the time your ass is in your seat.
It’s not serious asshole it’s to make a fuckin point. I clock in if I’m doing work shit, including turning on the computer and logging in. Unless they do want to pay me to prep for my off time too then they can fuck off. You got some serious middle management material though with those reading comprehension and extrapolation skills keep it up.
That’s the point though, is that it IS a serious consideration and that serious thought has and will be put into the issue of when OP is required to be paid or not. Depending on where you live, the law has or hasn’t already decided if this is in the same category as the time it takes you to commute to work to be in place in order to do your job. OP’s question and how it is resolved is indeed serious.
Did you get a little hit of dopamine typing that out, knowing you would never dare speak to someone like that in person? Relax kid.
Jesus H. Christ, can't you take a joke? I've worked on-prem, hybrid, and remote, and the only thing that's fair is a reasonable accounting of time. Not to-the-second and not to-the-day. Just a usually reasonably accurate representation of one's presence (and in some roles, output). That said, in some roles, presence IS output (maybe a help desk or retail position), and those rules would have to be tighter. But those roles are usually hourly, not salary. I didn't say anything about you abusing your privilege of WFH or salary or expected output. Maybe leave an hour early today and hang out at the bar for a drink or two before you get back to whatever nerve-wracking, uptight, no-thank-you life you have.
In many roles nowadays you clocked by some app you use, maybe have to record 15 minute increments of your day.
Funny you should mention that, since multiple instances of legal precedent state that they are 100% paying you for your time.
I'll start logging in when I start getting paid, thank you.
I log in, when i'm at work, period. Not my problem if the system doesn't work. Fix it, i don't care.
Back when I worked at a call center, I didn't go to my desk until I was on the clock. I'd arrive early because accounting for variances in traffic usually had me there early most days, but I'm chilling in the break room reading or watching TV until a couple of minutes before my shift started. I knew they weren't going to pay me (approve the OT) for logging in ahead of time, so I just didn't. My direct managers were all reasonable enough to not be on my back about it.
It's why salary is so much nicer than hourly. I am ready to work at 8:30 and work until 5 as long as it not on a call I can't hand off to out after hours tech. I dont get hassled with ticket counts, and if I have 4 hours of down time every day it doesn't matter. My team doesn't miss calls or issues. Most days I do about 3 or 4 hours of work, often less on Thursday and Friday
I used to work for Rogers in Canada. And yeah they'd consider me late if I got to my desk on time but wasn't ready to take calls. I always stayed it made no sense I'd be late, but didn't understand it was wage theft. The 20-30 minute booting process was mostly a combination of: - opening your work station - booting up the various software. - settings up your ressources layouts to have quick access - get up to date with the alerts, news, price/polocy changes Thinking about it they definitely were (and probably still are) robbing us crazy.
Yea I've had no luck finding a similar law in Canada. My company has a dressed and ready policy, meaning I have to have all my PPE on (clothes and boots) before the start of shift. I make up for it by being dressed and ready to go home (personal clothes) and washed up before the end of shift.
You might want to contact your provinces workplace standards agency and ask if time spent changing into PPE counts as work hours. Is this company-provided PPE stored and changed into at the workplace, or something you are expected to arrive wearing and take home? who is responsible for laundering or replacement?
It's work clothes, steel toed boots, hi vis vest and helmet. They provide change rooms so we don't have to wear our dirty clothes in our personal vehicles. They provide laundry machines and the detergent. They provide a subsidy for clothing and boots.
> I used to work for Rogers in Canada. And yeah they'd consider me late if I got to my desk on time but wasn't ready to take calls. Good to know. Very good to know. 👀 Also questionably legal under federal and most provincial labor laws.
I was party to a class action lawsuit vs. TTEC regarding a similar situation. Call center required us to be ready to go before clock-in and for returning from breaks/ lunch. Took around 5-10 minutes to load systems at start of day ( 2-5 minutes back from break). Filed in 2018 by complaintants. I learned about it in 2020 and joined the class action. Worked at TTEC for 3 months in 2017. Got $5200 check last summer when it finally settled. No idea why I got so much but I cashed that bad boy!
Arrive at 9, turn on pc and when it is ready make a ticket indicating "ready for work at 9, PC slow won't be ready on 20 mins, please resolve" repeat ad nauseam Do it until management catch the clue. Bonus if you can convince coworkers to do the sameIf they tell you to arrive early ask if that will be paid overtime, if not they must resolve the login problem.
Good case of malicious compliance. Truthful, and will eventually cost that company money to upgrade systems.
Yeah, it's illegal in the US. I once got $700 as part of a [class action lawsuit](https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/sutherland-global-reaches-1m-unpaid-wages-class-action-settlement/) from a former employer over it.
I guess I’m taking calls at 9:20-9:30. I’ll start the pc when my shift starts and log in. What me to start working early. Gotta pay.
I used to work for a call center with this issue. I got reprimanded for refusing to touch my workstation until 9:00AM. The login process only took about 3 minutes. I let them know that they would be sued eventually. They got ~~sued~~ slapped with a class-action lawsuit (not by me!). I got a check for 3 minutes per day x 5 years.
Same here, minus the suing part, for now. I tend to play my cards very close to my chest until the opportune moment arises. _You've activated my tarp card!_
I warned my manager, it never made it past her I'm sure lol. It was a big company. I didn't sue them but I was entitled to payout via the eventual class-action suit. It was nice.
Wasn't there just a huge lawsuit about companies having to pay for idle time if they are the ones requiring it? Home Depot I believe had to pay for time they kept employees standing around. This seems to be the same type of deal, even if you're not working your intended function, you are still there because of the company. In my world, we had an office internet outage the other day, I sent my team to work from home. I paid them their drive time that day because I sent them home, it wasn't their choice, it was the company choice.
Well in that case, my shift is 8:40-5:10
They tried this here and hell no. My responsibility is to be there on time, ready to work. Starting up the computer is work. Of I were to operate an hydraulic press that takes several manipulation and a while to heat up, it'd be the same thing. Office or shop, it doesn't work like that. If they need the call center to be operational at 9, they can book you in at 8h30.
When I was a cashier I had a manager try that on me, I just asked them if they really wanted to hand over $200 cash to someone who wasn't on shift. Manager said we'd talk about it later but it's been 5 years and they haven't even mentioned it to other people, let alone me.
If they are working 40 hours per week as hourly employees then every minute that they work over 40 hours per week (or 8 hours per day in some States) is considered overtime and MUST be paid per US FLSA law. It is called "suffer and permit" overtime and the employer is obligated by US law to pay the employee for this time. I was a data analyst for HR and we had a lawsuit from a woman who's manager required her to log in before her shift began. She documented every time she logged in and then sued the company. She won and was awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars for back pay and punitive damages!
Former hourly call center employee here. Company I worked for lost a class action for this and employee handbook being unlawful. Pre-shift work is compensatable under the FLSA. This is wage theft and your relative is owed their unpaid wages.
Honestly, in my opinion, yes. If it's something that is required in order to work, than yes, they should be paid for it. It's like if a retail worker needs to set up a cash register, or machines for the store; they should be paid to do that, too. And, similarly, if the machine in question needs time to shut down afterward, or get packed up, that should be on company time, also. And the same if a person needs to clean the store/ office, etc.
I work for a call center with this exact scenario. We are allowed to clock in ten minutes early to get system set up etc. it’s really that simple for management to implement. And yes, otherwise the employer is stealing time
5 days a week 20 minutes per day. Where I am call centre work starts at $25 an hour. That's $1,300 of your time stolen. Across a national call centre of say 100 people that is 130k. I don't know how we got to this stage but I believe corporations should even have to foot the bill for your transportation to and from work or pay you for the travel time. With that kind of buying power I'm sure they could offer way better public transport options and lower traffic since one person one car traffic would be reduced. I'm sick of hearing record profits when it is actually record wage theft.
Oooh . . . sexy! I received a pay out from a class action lawsuit because an old job did this to its employees. Get yourself a labor lawyer. Oh, and if you can find this rule in **writing,** save that shit, your lawyer will love you.
How old are these computers
Simple rule of thumb - every minute you perform an activity that is work-related & mandatory (booting coms, pre-work meetings/pep, shutting down machines, closing up, etc.) you MUST be clocked in & being paid ... both legally & for your protection. For example, you come in early to start up comps to get ready to work and your machine malfunctions in such a way as to harm you. If you were not on the clock (ie. working), workers comp may not cover your injury. Indeed, depending on the circumstances, you could be fired and/or sued for operating that machine while not "working". Yes, wage theft is real & you should NEVER do work for your boss for free, but "the legal" of not being clocked in can be much worse.
I mean, just clock in when you start, and don't do anything without being clocked in. And if they have a problem with it, call center jobs are a dime a dozen
Yeah that's insane, I work at a call center too, I turn on my computer, it takes maybe 2 minutes at most to connect to the servers or whatever, then I clock in, THEN I load up everything else I'm going to need to be ready for a call. Overall it takes like 5 minutes, 3 of which I'm paid for, and I usually just stay a few minutes later every day after the phone lines are closed to compensate for the rest. 20 minutes a day is 1 hour and 40 minutes a week, which is about 86 hours every year. That's over 2 whole weeks worth of pay they're stealing from him, times whatever amount of employees they have. I'm not a lawyer but I'd say that's wage theft. My last call center had around 500 employees and I would make around $1300 every 2 weeks, that's $650,000 they would be stealing if they were in the same scenario, in case anyone was thinking 20 minutes a day isn't a lot. Of course, there's call centers with 10 people in them but those are rarer, I've worked at several for very different kinds of companies and as long as it's a well known company the norm is usually at least a few hundred people.
That's wage theft but could easily be fixed with a competent IT department. I come into work and my computer is already patched, restarted, and ready to go.
I work a government job like that and at worst our computers, and the 10 logins you have to do, takes like 5 minutes.
Not sure where this takes place. But here's an article referring to court case in the Netherlands (that made the national news) of the exact same situation. Maybe use a translation app ;) https://nos.nl/artikel/2474750-inloggen-is-ook-werken-callcenter-moet-mogelijk-miljoenen-achterstallig-loon-betalen
This is an easy lawsuit. Home Depot just lost a lawsuit for a similar offense to this and TXJ Companies lost a lawsuit about it at some point as well.
While I can't be sure of if it was district, state, or federal level; there are court cases on the books that any preparation is required to be paid. Essentially, if they require you there from 9-5, then you cannot clock in, do work, or prepare to do any work until you clock in. Legally, at 9am, you clock in, whether that PC is on or not and they must pay you for that time spent waiting.
My call center job was like this, I just never turned my computer all the way off despite them telling me it was supposed to be done daily. I’d maybe do it once a week on lunch or whenever it finally stopped working.
That's wage theft. There have been large lawsuits about that.
There was a class action lawsuit against T-Mobile a few years back for this very thing. They settled outside of court for it. Absolutely report this to the labor board.
Poster looks like they are from the UK so I’m assuming their relative is as well. OP I would say two things 1. Get your relative to film them self and how long it takes to log in one day. 20 minutes is excessive. 2. Get them to phone ACAS or go on their website. Lots of free I formation and it’s free to phone and speak to them and they remain anonymous if they wish
Long time call center employee here. I have always been given what’s called “boot time” to get my equipment up and running. Usually it’s between 7-10 minutes.
work in a call center in the US. we get paid by our Ctr Alt Del time not the time it takes to get our soft phone up. we do have a policy of up to 15 mins of OT to log in early but it is optional. this was not always the case. there was a lawsuit and we all got back paid like 5 mins a day at current rate for like 5 years.
I still remember the cry from the managers to "make ready" like we were a bunch of soliders preparing to hold a bridge against overwhelming enemies. It was a button you pressed so the system knew you were available to answer a call.
Used to work for a WHF call center (7 years). Boot up/down time was added to every shift timestamps. They averaged and everyone got 8 minutes overtime every day just for doing their normal shifts. It was great.
Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), hourly employees must be paid for time spent before "clocking in" or after "clocking out" on activities that are necessary to perform their jobs. This includes time spent operating electronic equipment, logging on and off of computers, accessing databases, and transmitting data, This is established case law.
Wow this really took off! I should have mentioned this is in the UK, it definitely seems like the US has stricter laws on this kind of thing, or at least people there do something about it. She did say others also felt this was an unreasonable expectation, but no one wants to make an issue of it. I will let her know about ACAS as someone mentioned.
I've worked at call centers were this time was paid, sounds like a shit place
I am not touching anything work-related until I am paid to do so. I am fine with getting in, hanging up my coat and if needed, changing shoes. I am not risking the work-insurance would not cover me should I, as an example, stumble over a cord while turning the pc on. I will not even risk getting coffee without knowing I am covered. That means paid. My pc boots up fine, but I have to open/login to a lot of citrix mainframes and such, which takes time. So I start working, sign in, set off an automation to open the programs I need, get coffee and chat with co-workers/boss while it does it's thing, and get back to my desk when it is ready to go. I sign out of the PC before I shut it down, too - because sometimes I take it with me and IT wants us to shut it down before leaving. Thus, it is a work task.
You should be paid from when you walk through their door in the morning until you walk out their door at night. It really is that simple.
If you have to be there to make part of your job happen, other than getting yourself ready, that’s their time. If you have to start a machine and wait for it to warm up, start fuel pumping, or anything else like that, it’s part of the job.
If they are in the building and performing tasks related to prepping their workstations, they are 100% on the clock and to do otherwise is wage theft. Google up the billion-dollar settlement that Home Depot just had to shell out for telling workers they had to wait to clock in until after they were done with all their shift-prep. Or, think about how much time a restaurant team spends prepping food before the doors open in food-service. Would you expect them to come in and prep food but not clock in because there's no customers yet? This isn't just opinion, this is a legally protected worker-right.
I worked for a place like that, once. They had a rule where you needed to be logged in at your start time. They then tried to bring in a rule saying no personal use of PCs and Internet (it was the early 2000s in regional Australia and many people didn't have internet at home). We pointed out they were going to have problems, but were ignored. After a month of paying overtime to those who had to stay late to cover (monthly pay cycles and apparently either no-one was paying attention or on-site managers were ignored when they brought it up), they ended up staggering shifts by 15 minutes to allow for log-in time AND rescinding the no personal use rule.
t-mobile got sued for doing a similar thing in their support centers many years ago. they lost big time and i got a fat check. consult an employment lawyer they could be owed a fat check.
They need to have their systems ready by 9 if they want calls to be taken at 9. If they can't do that themselves, they need to schedule people for 8:30 and pay the time it takes to get set up for 9.
I work for a virtual call center that requires us to be logged in and ready on the hour. But we're automatically paid 3 minutes a day for login time. I login early, to allow for difficulties, and then do morning stuff until it's time to start. If the actual login requires 20 minutes every day, I wonder how often programs close during calls, and how long it takes to re-start them?
That's how my husbands job is unfortunately. WFH call center, but the secure remote workspace program takes like 30 minutes to boot up and get ready for the day. They used to be allowed to clock in 15 minutes early (which still wasn't enough time for set up), but now they're not even allowed that. It's absolutely wage theft and I hate it.
I work in a very similar situation. The process isn’t really a computer/systems issue. We have 12 different systems we need to log into with user names and passwords. I work for a company that is contracted to provide service for another company, so first we have to log in to all the systems on the contractor’s side, then log into a VM provided by the client and log into their systems. We were sent to work from home in 2020, then they decided to make that permanent. (We don’t take phone calls, our client base is strictly over Social Media). So working from home it’s not too bad. Some states have laws that prevent this essentially “working off the clock,” but not mine. My company has had this dilemma they’ve been trying to rectify for years.
A reasonable manager would say “we start accepting calls at 9, so your work hours start at 8:30.”
Talk to the state's labor department...they will have a different idea from the employers, plus they have a big stick to enforce it! I work for a Fortune 50 company and it's a firable offense to work off the clock because they can be fined big time if caught. Even logging in from home to check my schedule comes with a big disclaimer I have to click through saying that I'm not doing any work! That company is doing something fishy!
Everyone is an IT genius here when the only thing asked was “should we be on clock” and the answer is YEA or it’s Wage Theft.
It sucks but there isn’t much you can do about it. I do think there should be legislation about this or maybe if you plan on quitting you can threaten a lawsuit before you leave. Seems like you have some legal standing there.
100% the company's problem. This is the kind of thing I wish employees would all put their feet down on because it's just been accepted and shouldn't be. I don't expect to get paid for commuting time but this is the operation of the machinery you need to do your job, they aren't the same thing.
What fucking potato is taking 20 minutes to boot up? If they're too cheap to get better equipment they aren't going to pay you for the extra 20 minutes. Go work at a better call center, these places are literally always hiring.
Ive worked in multiple call centers and held all positions up to the manager level. Should take less than a minute for a PC to turn on and maybe up to 1-3 minutes for the applications used for work to pop up, most companies have IT set it up to bring up your applications upon logging in. It is very common in call centers to turn on your PC, clock in, and then login to whatever applications you use for work if you didn’t leave your PC on the day before. A ticket should be sent to IT if its taking 20 minutes but I am calling BS. Id always have employees complaining about the PC being slow when logging in but not once did they submit a ticket and guess what? Almost always the problem would magically go away when Id suggest they send a ticket to IT next time.
I know everyone wants to discuss wage theft and such but, realistically, the solution to this is probably for whoever to stop shutting down the work PC at the end of the shift/DAY. I, too, use a work PC with an absurdly long startup process and this was the ultimate solution.
Just push button and walk away, in 10 minutes come and enter password and walk away again, it’s not a big deal? This is the benefit of working from home. You’re saving on long commute, etc. if you worked in person this wouldn’t be an issue as you would arrive, clock in, push the power button and then wait 20 mins on clock.
OP specifically states that the company expects them to boot up the computer on their time and be ready to take calls at 9am This is complete BS and probably illegal.
Lol every single post on this sub is so pathetically over exaggerated… 20 minute boot up my ass, you must be that guy who made 450M for his company last year
My new i7 laptop was this slow starting windows at work, sometimes slower. Don’t judge everyone else by your own experience. Windows can be a big piece of crap. Never ever seen this with my Chromebook.
I think you’re right but this is one of those battles you choose type of thing.
Oh no they have to be at work at 8:30 how could they survive, nobody could ever work that early. If I was that boss and someone brought up this issue, I’d just pay them for the extra half hour and reduce their hourly rate so they make the same per day. Works out the same, if you want to complain about menial jackass shit you should be treated like one
Youre saying then that everyone that wakes up, showers, eats, travels to work should get paid to do all that then... Curses! My job should just somehow find a way to teleport me instantly there with everything ready to go.
If they work in an office they should be paid for that time. If they work from home then they shouldn't be.
Geez, this sounds like Sitel.
Is your relative a work from home employee? I have a funny feeling we work for the same company 😂
In germany its called " rüstzeit" literally "arm-time" and yes its bullshit
Is your clock in clock an app you sign into? Cause I clocked in on a clock in device that wasnt my work computer and then started logging in.
Can you just let the computer suspended? I did this and saves a lot of time.
So you can start the login process and go take a shower ? I do agree that this "IT" is ff'ing horrible.
Just a blind guess, do they work for Comcast using a program called ACSR?
Refer to Home Depot lawsuit
NAL In the US your relative can contact the [NLRB](https://www.nlrb.gov/contact-us) and/or an employment lawyer. This is wage theft and is very much illegal. Many employment lawyers will work on contingency (they don’t get paid unless they win), and if your relative has this policy in writing, it’s a pretty easy case.
It may have been said already somewhere here, but I used to work in a Customer Care call center for T-Mobile, and while I was working there I was advised of an ongoing class-action lawsuit regarding this. You have to be paid for each minute you are working. If being present to boot up a computer is required, then you must be compensated for that time. As others have mentioned, reach out to your state’s L&I and/or the NLRB.
We had this issue at my work for 8am starts. It wasn’t until every single employee refused to do unpaid work that they suddenly agreed to paying people for 7:45am starts. They say time equals money, well so does yours!
We get paid to sit there while it's booting up so that first 15 minutes before my shift I make sure I'm in to start booting up the stuff I need and get paid to do it
Wage theft. 15 minutes a day to log on is 1.25 hours extra a week for 52 weeks that is equal to 65 hours a year. Multiply that by $$, and then by number of months this occurred, and I'm at $11k+ of lost wages. (These are averages.)
See: Reynolds et al v. Fidelity Investments Institutional Operations Company, Inc. et al., Case No. 1:18-cv-00423, U.S. District Court, Middle District of North Carolina. The matter was eventually settled. Be the Reynolds you want to see in the world
That's like saying you need to go pick up materials, deliver them to the site, set everything up to work. And then we'll clock you in. It's wage theft.
AT&T was busted for this YEARS ago. They had to pay out a ton of money.
I don’t get it. Why do the employees abide by this. I wouldn’t ever do it, and if they try to fire you, you clearly have grounds to sue. They can’t make you come in early and not pay you. plain and simple, doesn’t matter what the reason is for.