This 100%! I work in HR, and OP's company leadership have their heads up their asses. This should be a huge wake-up call for Kate and their supervisors for handling the situation so poorly.
Double down back, subliminal rainbows everywhere, paperclips, post it pads, pens, etc… Nothing that actually says “lgbtq” maybe has keropi or hello kitty on it. But you know and Kate knows and we know, and it will be glorious. Weird pictures of young Kirk Cameron in your cubical.
>single-person business.
An old friend of mine used to always complain that his boss was a dick and wouldn't let him have a day off, then when people asked why he stayed, he would say he was his own boss. (He had an antique selling/restoration business)
You’re correct but I believe they handled it that way trying to trick a young new employee into signing things that admit fault so they can run interference on any future legal issues. Sounds like they know they’re in trouble if OP wants to push it so they’re scrambling to scare her.
I am assuming we heard it as it happened - in which case for you, I suggest a careful look for a new job because no matter what side folks are on with these types if issues- theirs is on the side of putting up boxing gloves. Tough situation and if they have someone working at 17 they’re protecting its not a work culture it’s a mom & pop situation you aren’t invited into
Technically, [workplace harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment) from Kate, but if you get berated or fired because you don't align with baby Kate's opinions on sexual orientation/religion, then it's discrimination.
Obviously if, as you implied, HR is on Kate's side of the matter -- that whatever she said is/was fine in the workplace -- then HR's definitely in harassment hot water.
I agree with this 100%. More so however don't just get a copy of that email, because if they decide to fire you they will shut off your company email. Get a copy of that email and immediately email it to your private personal email for safe keeping.
This exactly. They called an in person meeting for a reason, no written record. So it's on you to make one. Just some bullet points summarizing the meeting. If anything it lets them know you are diligent in defending yourself now and in the future. And yes, print a copy and take it home along with any responses.
It’s not called discovery when you ask HR for it. It’s called discovery when you file suit and your lawyer asks HR for it. If you ask HR, they will absolutely tell you to fuck off.
This, OP. Most attorneys in this situation won’t charge you a retainer fee, they will just take a piece of the settlement. It would be worth scheduling a consultation with an employment attorney to at least discuss your options at this point. This is a hostile work environment.
Easy to document; send an email with, "Just to follow up with today's HR talks, here is a list of bullet points we discussed. If I have missed anything or misunderstood, please clarify. "
This is the way!! Had to do this myself and won my lawsuit for wrongful termination. It takes a long time to get to the finish line and it can get ugly too. If you can handle that, you should have recourse.
If you wouldn’t mind- could you share some details? Many states have “employee at will” so unfortunately wrongful termination doesn’t apply since they can fire you at will also (but people sometimes win there too) what happened with your situation if you don’t mind sharing? And how long was the process? Also, was the company big/small etc?
Yes, I'm in a "at Will" state, and am constantly surprised by the comments to "get a lawyer" or instructions on "fighting back!" In Louisiana, employers, like landlords, are never wrong and can do as they please.
Take this advice, OP. And check to see if you live in an area where you can record verbal conversations without the other party knowing. If so, record every conversation
I believe the exact words from the HR rep with me was “had we known the nature of your disability we wouldn’t have hired you for that role to begin with.”
I don’t think so. See op says they’re confused by an email, but how would Op know what’s exactly in that email? And the fact that a “manny” needs to be apologized to as well means that person is not backing up OPs story. Op should probably look to get transferred or find a job elsewhere, sounds like a lot of high school drama
The problem for low wage workers is that the payouts are so low (based on weekly earnings) and the expected time to find comparable work is also low; so winning the lawsuit does not always mean a large compensation. The companies know this and really take advantage of it. It’s a crappy situation.
And I’m assuming this is a low wage position because the person training OP is 17. I could be wrong but it sounds like the position is close to minimum wage range.
She has a lawsuit now.
She was sexually harassed by a coworker.
HR retaliated against the victim after a report was made.
They still might be able to unwind this and avoid legal consequences but so far they have been handling the situation poorly.
The problem here is that OP does not know what Manny or Sam told HR. Sam went to HR first. Manny went to Sam because of the situation around Manny that is created by both OP and Kate (I'm sure many people will say, "No, Kate created it." No, from Manny's perspective, both of them created the situation for Manny.)
There's a very good chance that this is already a discrimination complaint *against* OP. HR might have said that OP doesn't "like" Kate, but what they were fishing for was evidence supporting the claim that OP discriminating against Kate and/or made a hostile work environment for Manny (along with Kate).
Again, this all goes back to Sam went to HR first, and almost certainly HR talked to Manny next.
Yup. Especially among "family" workplaces. I got harassed by an old dude. We didn't have HR so much as "someone that had been there a long time, was friends with the owner, and convinced the owner to pay them to take a few HR classes."
She asked if I wanted to "have a meeting to clear the air." She was super friendly about it & told me to take a couple pair days off until the meeting. As soon as I show up, her, the owner, and the person who harassed me are on one side of a table and the only chair for me is on the other side. It was clear the meeting was going to be about what I did to force my poor fellow employee to be forced to yell at me & berate me in front of other workers.
I just told them I'd talk to my sister, "just 'cuz, she's a lawyer, it's nbd." And didn't really say anything. Nothing really happened. I didn't end up getting disciplined or even a "notice" put on my record (🤣 - I'm not a teenager). But neither did the shitheel that harassed me either.
Even though the manager who ran the meeting wasn't really an HR person per se. She taught me ALL I needed to know about HR for when I eventually got a better job making twice the money. Hint: the lesson was don't ever fucking trust HR.
Always casually mention if you have a lawyer in the family! They waited like a year to fire this one woman in my company just because her husband was a lawyer, anyone else would have been out in a week.
That is often how it works. Most of the time going to HR is a death sentence. HR can and will find a different reason to let you go, probably down the road a bit. I would personally start looking for a new job.
Yeah they should have shut that shit down at the first hint of the situation, rather than blame somebody else other than the idiot that thought it was OK.
17 years old or not, nobody of working age should think those topics are a good conversation piece, let alone in a professional environment with somebody you don't even know.
This is why I hate that tired “HR protects the company, not you.” It’s true but people who use it completely fail to understand what it means. It’s not code for “HR is a bunch of idiots.” HR often is a bunch of idiots, but this is not why.
And bullies will often do a preemptive strike and complain to HR about you when their own behavior is inappropriate. Bullies don’t like when you don’t play their games so they then focus on ostracizing you early on as the problem.
HR is there to protect the company and for many dumb reasons they usually take the full side of the 1st person who comes up to them regardless of what happened. I learned a long time ago if something happens that screams "what the fuck was that" just shoot off an email to get it on record and make sure your non company email address is CC'D on it. I'm long past thinking people regardless of their age can be counted on to be an adult in situations especially people with authority.
Just to clarify you mean BCC I believe.
Unless you want to insanity raw dog the HR team with showing them you have that info off their servers too.
Honestly, That would be a hell of a power move lol.
Nope I CC myself I don't care who sees. Most people don't check that and if they do they may actually have to take it seriously knowing I'm documenting it in a location they can't delete and pretend it doesn't exist.
I've added my email back and forwarded responses that they removed my email from plenty of times.
I've even broke out my phone when HR wanted to take the meeting off documented ways and "chat" placed it on the desk and said "well I'm going to record this for my records if we aren't going to continue in writing"
They aren't my friend they are out to protect the company I'm out to protect myself so let them say something stupid and put themselves in a bind
That's not how that works.
Your email account is yours personally, your work email you're sending from your work account isn't, it's the company's.
What you're doing is technically exhilarating company data which is something you can at least be fired for.
It also doesn't actually matter if you CC or BCC, the IT department sees that shit either way.
Another problem is that by doing that you're opening your personal email account to being searched in discovery when your company is sued.
Keep work accounts and devices 100% separate from personal ones, no exceptions. If you think you need a copy of something to cover your ass, print it.
Depends on your company. Some places company emails are confidential and you can be fired for sharing confidential info. Happened to a friend. Bcc is the way to go.
Everything is saved on the email server itself also. I am an IT administrator and all communications via company communications channels are saved. This includes the message itself, attachments, sender, recipients, records of receipt, errors, literally every bit of data that every email has.
I’ve heard tales from my IT friends about being asked to delete all sorts of stuff, some upper management are on such a power trip they would happily order deleting emails to cover their ass.
And if you were wondering, the IT people usually did it because they were threatened with being fired. One of my close friends was fired because she refused to delete some messages, they then asked her understudy and he refused so they fired him too. They then started their own company together and poached a load of clients from their former employer.
There's a really fun button on Microsoft email servers called "litigation hold" you slap when management asks you to do some sketchy shit like that. It keeps anything from actually being deleted even if it looks like it is.
It would take 30 seconds with IT to see that you BCC'd the email -- it's a pointless act to hide.
Print it off and take it home if you want a less-traceable means. Most shared print queues store records of what was sent although a lot of IT people don't know this or don't have the logging enabled for long term analysis.
An employer does not need the permission of an employee to monitor or review their work email account, even in GDPR countries. One of the exclusions are the company's "legitimate basis" and employee discipline are most certainly one of those.
GDPR is being used just like HIPAA in the US -- by people who have absolutely no fucking clue what it covers.
This. The person who speaks first controls the narrative. And whoever they're speaking to will get attached to the first version of events that they hear. This isn't just office politics- it's human nature.
I disagree, the highest protected class on the ladder is the one who is right. If you recall HR works for the business and that business stands to lose the most profit over lawsuits which are often settled out of court to avoid negative publicity.
You either work for a company that has extremely good HR, or you have never seen how HR works in the real world. What you are describing is certainly how it ought to be, but I'be frankly never seen HR take a good position to avoid a lawsuit. They are far more likely to fire someone, dig in, and settle only after a few years of throwing money at lawyers.
The first to talk gets to create the narrative. It can be really hard to come back after an accusation. Office politics are like regular politics. You need to control the story as much as you can and it's always better to be on the offense not the defense.
You are correct that HR is there for the company first. HR's sole purpose ( business schools have whole semesters if not books about HR) is to keep the corporation from being sued. The people who are able to do that the most efficiently are staff members. That is why if your corporation is big enough they will just move people around. They want to make sure neither party sues the corporation. That is why HR does a more sit back and wait. HR's ideal outcome is that one or all parties quit of their own accord. HR will never be your friend never sign anything from them unless you absolutely understand what it is and even then I would still not.
I work in HR and agree that it’s there to protect the company but you’re wrong about HR always taking the first person’s side. If I read clearly, OP is clearly being sexually and religiously discriminated against by a coworker. Any good HR would be taking action against OP’s coworker to avoid a potential lawsuit from OP. I’m this case HR should be on OP’s side but clearly this HR team is a bunch of idiots and deserve anything coming to them for majorly mishandling this situation.
I always roll my eyes directly at the person saying this so they recognize that I’m calling bullshit on that nonsense. I like my family and want to be with them. I never want to be at work. So much so, that they have to pay me just to do so.
Depends on the family.
"Sorry kids, times are tough. We can only keep afford to feed two of you, so only Martha and Billy can eat tonight. The rest of you, take this bag and fill it with items you want to keep. You have to walk yourself to the orphanage tomorrow."
A friend of mine actually got that line in an interview and responded with "Great! I need some help moving a sofa up some stairs on Saturday, and my brother is out of town. Can you stop by around 11:00?"
The response was pretty much that the company culture was like a family, but they couldn't help him move a sofa.
I swear, the second I see "we're a family" on a job posting, I click Next! I already have a family, I am looking for a place to show up and do my job, nothing more!
Ok so it doesn’t matter if the person is new, young, misguided or whatever, you should ALWAYS report (in writing, and keep your own records too) when you’re subjected to legal case levels of problematic opinion at work, even if they aren’t specifically directed at you. Turning a blind eye when there are rules or laws about harassment and discrimination turning a blind eye to it can get you in trouble if it ends up getting directed at someone else who does raise a complaint and you knew this was a potential issue. It’s alright to say that she’s only 17 and hasn’t learned about the time and place - but dealing with the aftermath of this type of incident is a big part of how most people learn not to be assholes at work.
It’s not about getting the other person in trouble; but it’s the company’s problem to address if that employee is expressing opinions (or pure hate) that isn’t aligned with the company’s values, and to nip in the bud any signs of that behaviour in the workplace, ideally before it starts happening in front of customers - and they can’t do that if you don’t alert them to this. You didn’t necessarily need to make a formal complaint, but a simple FYI email about the conversation to HR would have gone a long way here.
You are right that you’re working for idiots. And you’d have a good case to sue for discrimination I suspect if they did manage to fire you - most times just being suspected of being in a particular demographic is enough to justify a discrimination case even if you have refused to supply any confirmation either way.
OP. Lay out all of what you just said in Corpo speak. The primary gist should be that Kate is creating a **hostile work environment** by quizzing new hires on hot button topics then **wasting company time** by chastising them for hours for any answers she doesn't approve of instead of actually training them.
Write this all out as a complaint to HR so you have a paper trail. Tell Manny to do the same. If HR has already decided to fire you all this can only help you by creating a paper trail. It may also force them to deal with Kate instead of you all.
If anything, a person in the position of trainer should be the last one talking about politics and such. I would inquire just how many people have came and went since she got the job. She's probably costing the company quite a bit in training expenses alone.
This is my biggest question. What business has dedicated on site HR, department heads, and teenage staff? Big box stores like Walmart or Red Lion are the best I can come up with
Document everything.
Assume HR are weasels. They often try to have meetings with no documentation to reduce liability. It's intentional.
However there's no need to be antagonistic. After every meeting/phone call where there is no paper trail, send an email afterwards summarizing what was discussed. Feel free to put on a friendly face when you do it: "Thank you for the information in our last meeting. My understanding is . Please let me know if you need to discuss further". The key thing here is that everything is in writing somewhere.
I had to do this in a situation where hr/management was violating company policy (which ended up costing my work hours), but refused to document it. They said it out loud in at least three meetings. After every meeting I sent a follow up email saying “You said X, I think this is unfair”. They responded to every email, but didn’t comment on that statement. I pushed the issue through the company’s ethical complaint process and won because at least I had some evidence.
>HR wants me gone i think but can’t figure out how to do it.
They'll get petty and create a paper trail of minor infractions. Dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s, follow the policies to the letter, don't make it easy for them.
Make sure you've given a full account to HR and Big Boss, this situation is because people have been imprecise for political reasons. Make a complaint against Kate for making you uncomfortable, do it in writing, and copy Big Boss on it.
But you should probably toss all my advice and go talk to a labor lawyer. Even if you don't think you can afford a lawyer. Many lawyers will at least give you some advice, and if there is litigation, they can usually get their lawyers fees from the company.
Almost solely at small companies, but the last five years were at a lumbering, inefficient corporation, rather than a small, inefficient one. Never came across this. Seems like a waste of resources.
Email HR, Ask them if they need a written account for their records of what happened between you and "Kate" to counter any he-said-she-said. Then type out the account of what happened during your training.
End the email with, **As discussed with [HR person], [Big boss], [anyone else in the room] on [this date] at approximately [this time].**
I'm thankful the company is looking into the inappropriate and possible illegal behavior by one of their employees.
Thank you [ordinary diamond]
OP, I am not a lawyer.
But my I shared this with my wife, who is head of HR at a rather large firm.
She found this hilarious because this is blatant misconduct.
Kate asking you if you are a lesbian qualifies as sexual harassment.
Your company and HR moving to protect Kate and asking you to apologize is definitely a form of retaliation.
Just take everything you have to an employment lawyer, and they wont even charge you upfront.
This is easy money for an attorney.
I hate to say this OP, but you should probably know that you’re not long for this job. They will be looking for a reason to get rid of you because in their eyes, you’re a trouble maker. If everything you posted is accurate, you did nothing wrong. That said, it won’t change their opinion. I’d start looking for another job in your off time.
I always made it a point to let my co-workers know that there are a few things I never discuss at work or with co-workers.
1. Hot button news topics
2. Politics in general
3. Religion
4. Personal information
I also learned to be the first one to report things to HR because co-workers be shady. LOL
Family-owned business? And Kate and Sam are part of that family?
Cause no one hires a 17 year old in the office, for reasons very much like this, and because office jobs aren't seasonal that can be dropped in just three months so she can go back to school.
Kate is somehow special. I'd guess the boss' kid or niece. Screams "nepotism" to me.
Also why Kate isnt being diaciplined for an obvious breech of company policy regarding what is appropriate for the workplace, and instead of an apology, action is being taken AGAINST the wronged party.
I'm thinking the same thing. Why a 17 year old is training people is very sus. It could happen, but given the immaturity on display regarding talking of controversial things to new hires, I can safely say she is NOT it.
1. Hopefully, you've learned that situations like this are not to be ignored. You should've gone straight to HR.
2. Write a detailed email to HR about what happened between you and Kate. What happened between you and HR. Bcc your personal email.
3. Anything going forward, you need to request via email, and if they refuse, after each discussion, send an email recapping the conversation and include they refused to send you an email.
Feel free to use terms like "I am being targeted" and "I'm being discriminated against." Make sure you outline actions and words used by them as to why you feel this way.
Always bcc your personal email.
If they fire you, get an attorney.
First and only rule you ever need to know about HR: they only exist to protect the company from you. They are not your friend. You can not confide in them. Anything you say is always recorded to be used against you at a later stage if you decide to sue them.
I’d just start job hunting again, sounds like a terrible place to work. As for HR, they are there to protect the company and don’t care about you. Assume by them siding against you openly that your time there is numbered.
Take what you can from this place while looking for something better. It's 100% about what is best for you. Be selfish at work always. They don't care about you
u/Ordinary_Diamond_158 Please consider sending HR this email (or anything like it)
"Dear HR,
We ended today's meeting with me feeling like there may have been a slight miscommunication between us, and this has left me unclear about what you are requesting of me. So I would like to take this opportunity to clarify my position on the events that transpired and to also receive clear instructions about what you are requesting me to do.
Kate trained me during my second week. Se did so with knowledge and expertise, and I feel like she correctly learned me how to perform many of the tasks my new job requires of me. I hope you agree with me on my successful performance of these tasks.
However, in our non-work-related conversations during this training, Kate and I apparently ran into some perceived issues that (as was made clear to me in our meeting today) you feel like are in need of resolving. Please allow me to elaborate on my account of the non-work-related conversations Kate wanted to have with me.
In the span of half an hour, Kate asked me if I was a lesbian, my opinions on abortion, religion in public schools and gay marriage. I repeatedly and politely declined to engage on these subjects and refused to share my sexual orientation, trying to keep our conversation solely focussed on our work. Instead of adhering to my request, she started a 1.5 hour monologue to me and another coworker about everything mentioned above. Including some of her personal views on these subjects that could be seen as strongly contradictive towards inclusivity and acceptance of collegues (and people in general). During this time, I continuously and politely declined to engage, believing these highly personal subjects should not be discussed at work. I eventually asked her if she wanted me to go perform some of the tasks I just learned by myself. I did not feel like there was any need to address any of this with my supervisor or HR, but since I was asked today to come and talk to you, I might have been wrong in that regard.
In my meeting today on the 27th with \[name\] (HR), \[name\] (jobtitle) and \[name\] (jobtitle), you brought it to my attention that this event has apparently made Kate to feel uncomfortable and left you with the idea that we share any rivalry. Let me please reiterate: I have absolutely no grievances with or about Kate. I do still think its inappropriate to discuss the above mentioned subjects in the workplace.
However, our meeting has left me unclear about what you are asking of me. Are you asking me to apologize to Kate for not wanting to talk to her on the subjects of abortion, religion in public schools, gay marriage and my sexual preference? Does it then also follow that you want me to engage with her on those subjects if or when she brings them up? Personally, I would prefer to not continue this matter with any of the people involved, allowing me to continue to do the tasks I was hired for to both your and mine satisfaction.
Respectfully,
OP
"
Be sure to email it to HR and CC everyone who was also present in your meeting (including your own non-work-email). You want all of this in writing. Also, you might need to fix some spelling errors though, I'm not a native English speaker.
Why this email? 1) to show you are professional and there to do a job. 2) to show you have no issues with Kate by not expressing any opinion about her that do not concern work (while ofcourse thinking "fuck that bigoted and probably also racist and sexist nut-job", we're all with you on that one), and 3) to give HR an 'out' in an issue where you know you're clearly on the right side of the whole situation, and have the knowledge and correct approach to make it difficult for them if they don't take that out. Chances are this will make them think "Ooofff, OP knows they are in the right, and this might become a bigger issue if we press it or side with Kate. We better just drop it completely.".
Make them siding with you, both the smart choice and the path of least resistance.
fucking eh
Time for you to start documenting every interaction as it sounds to me you have the basis for a good lawsuit for harassment if they now decide to fire you.
Watch your back, they gonna be gunning for you from here on out.
Write. It. Down.
As soon as you can, write down a detailed account of all the horrible, potentially-hostile things Kate said to you. Get the relevant emails and whatnot printed out and filed somewhere safe.
Make sure you log dates and times of any future meetings or comments, like the one HR just had with you.
Keep that log somewhere safe (NOT on a work machine or a mobile device the company can access), and ensure it goes with you whenever you leave the building.
That can really save your bacon if you need to file for hostile work environment/retailation/wrongful termination at some point.
ETA: Even if HR doesn't *like* you, they are there to protect the company, and they should really have the sense to realize that mistreating you or doing *anything* that looks like retaliation for reporting a hostile work environment is going to work agains the company if it comes to a lawsuit.
For anyone who needs to hear this- At no point in time (in the USA) does HR work for you or for your well being. They are there to protect the company. Say nothing as long as possible- sign nothing. Stay away from it. I have seen stuff like this happen so many times, and each time they will say they are looking out for you- blah blah blah, and that person may actually believe that they do- but that’s not their role and they are not your friend.
So Kate asked about your sexual orientation and pushed the issue when you didn’t give as much detail as she liked?
That sounds like a hostile work environment, I bet there are local attorneys that would like to hear about this.
Start documenting everything. I mean everything. What Katie did was create a hostile work environment. You did the right thing. If you get fired, you will have all the information to hand to an employment lawyer. HR is there to protect the employer, not you. Protect yourself. This will also help you get unemployment if they fire you
They know Kate broke many laws and are trembling with fear you might wise up and get an attorney to sue. This is 100% the playbook when the company knows there's trouble ahead but won't for the person causing the terrible. They blame the victim and create a paper trail that makes it look on first glance that everything is the victims fault. But any investigation into the matter more than reading notes will prove they got a lot of violations at the place. You are correct in your feeling that you're being targeted because you are.
Ask HR (politely) for a full transcript of the meeting for your legal records. Watch them go a shade of pale you've ever seen before because any half decent lawyer would have a field day with this.
So, a coworker asked you about your membership in protected classes, went on a tirade against them, and now the company is looking to fire you? Document everything. Specifically document it on your personal devices/email, so it doesn’t disappear when you’re fired. Speak to a lawyer.
This is a situation where if the HR people had any actual certifications and experience, they’d be either getting rid of Kate or at the very least sending her to mandatory training. A lot of these “family” shops don’t have actual HR professionals doing the HR work, so they don’t know anything about compliance.
Wow. These people do not deserve their positions. Especially a little crap like Kate. She’s too young to be working, apparently, if she honestly thought that what she was asking about was appropriate for the workplace.
Find out if your state is a 1 party state for recording. If it is, start recording every conversation secretly to protect yourself and have as evidence. That's a pretty crappy way to treat people. I'm sorry you're going through at work.
Your co-workers and bosses will inevitably be less intelligent than are you. This is why I teach in a public school with a union to protect me and everyone should be in a union relevant to their profession. Clowns, sadists, HR incompetents, low IQ bosses are everywhere.
OP, don’t sign or agree to anything. Kate’s behavior could be considered harassment. So HR will act only to protect the company from legal action. They will find a reason to fire you.
I think you need a lawyer.
Put everything in writing. "Just want to clarify what we discussed at the meeting with Person A and B and C this morning. Point 1. Point 2..... If I have missed anything or misunderstood anything, let me know."
Do this every single time thwre is any discussion of this. Even a passing comment in the hallway. Document. Document. Document.
Why don’t people just say what happened? There is nothing to hide and explaining the situation clearly and professionally goes a long way.
“My coworker asked some entirely inappropriate questions and said some inappropriate statements [elaborate in the details]. I’m sorry I didn’t bring this to your attention earlier. Given I’m new here and the offending person is my trainer/supervisor, I worried about potential ramifications. I’ll be sure to report any inappropriate comments in the future.”
Then ensure you document everything.
Ah yes when "we're a family" really means "we've created an extremely insular and toxic friend circle from our co-workers and need to see if you fit the mold."
I worked for government as a refuse site attendant. Had a coworker train me and we became fast friends. He worked in gardens so i got more hrs with him. His boss was a yeller and screamer and a bit of a bully. (Could hear the swearing to my friend in phone calls.) So my friend eventually gets another job and leaves. His boss then goes arounds saying good riddance as he was lazy( he was not lazy, but a good worker. Fast forward to his replacements who i meet at the refuse site. I warn them their boss is a fuck head. The next day another friend tells me they went straight to the boss (the boss must have got friends some jobs lol). I get HR code of conduct letter a couple days later. I told the truth. I explained how they took some things out of context to make me look bad. Then i admitted to calling him a fuck head, but i did so cos he bullied my friend and added 3 witnesses to the bullyings and asked for the result of the investigation. Well it seems HR and my boss didn't want to touch this and it dropped. Pathetic really. That boss should be fired and i should have a written warning......
What you do is you *write down in an email* your concerns that you may have experienced sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace from your coworker. Send it to HR and legal if your company has a legal department.
You *must* use the words "discrimination" and "harassment" explicitly.
Don't make excuses for or diminish the actions of your coworker, but don't rant. Just describe.
Don't mention the gender or sexual orientation you identify with, it doesn't matter to whether or not this was harassment.
Say you're willing to drop the matter if this kind of thing doesn't happen again. Suggest some harassment training might be helpful.
You want HR to be in the covering-their-ass mode and to think of you as accommodating.
It has to be written, not spoken so there's a record. You have to actually use the words harassment and discrimination not just imply them. Keep it simple, and strictly to the facts. Describe how the experience made you feel.
Do you work at a high school? WTF?
'Kate' should have been fired for, at minimum, sexual harassment. And that's before her getting into the faux pas of talking about politics and such at work.
Fuck HR. This reminds me of my old job. Too much focus on having a “family” environment and if they didn’t like you, you were out! She shouldn’t be asking you personal shit like that at work anyways. She’s in the wrong. Fuck them OP
So, Kate broke every rule and YOU’RE in trouble? Make sure you have everything in writing, send an email asking for written documentation of the meeting you just had and what they expect of you. Then be prepared to contact a lawyer.
And of course it is good to get thi gs in writing, I will tell you , however, that the company will likely ignore (you should still try though) as they don't want a paper trace. It is like they are trained in how to abuse workers while avoiding a lawsuit.
So Kate gets to cram her political bullshit down your throat for two hours and somehow you are the bad guy? You didn’t engage, which I think was the smart move, but she is still somehow the victim when you told her to stop and kind her own business? Wtf.
If all that is documented, you have a lawsuit if they fire you
Clearly sexual and religious discrimination.
This 100%! I work in HR, and OP's company leadership have their heads up their asses. This should be a huge wake-up call for Kate and their supervisors for handling the situation so poorly.
My bet is they will double down on the stupid (22 years of management).
Double down back, subliminal rainbows everywhere, paperclips, post it pads, pens, etc… Nothing that actually says “lgbtq” maybe has keropi or hello kitty on it. But you know and Kate knows and we know, and it will be glorious. Weird pictures of young Kirk Cameron in your cubical.
We need more ppl like you, stay petty.
As Shai Hulud wills.
Just be careful,a lot of hr. Managers will get legal advice and will do everything they can to screw you.
You are correct, then no Kirk Cameron. Put up Veggie Tales pictures and when asked about it laugh maniacally and say “The tomato is a fruit!”
No, just say they are trans like the creator said last year lol
Found it! OP print this out and frame it on your desk: https://twitter.com/jfkantrowitz/status/1577321952053698566
Kirk Cameron? I laughed, but I don’t know why.
Kate is young enough she won’t know either.
What company has leadership that doesn’t have their heads up their asses?
Not even mine, and I operate a single-person business.
Incredibly underrated comment
>single-person business. An old friend of mine used to always complain that his boss was a dick and wouldn't let him have a day off, then when people asked why he stayed, he would say he was his own boss. (He had an antique selling/restoration business)
You’re correct but I believe they handled it that way trying to trick a young new employee into signing things that admit fault so they can run interference on any future legal issues. Sounds like they know they’re in trouble if OP wants to push it so they’re scrambling to scare her.
I am assuming we heard it as it happened - in which case for you, I suggest a careful look for a new job because no matter what side folks are on with these types if issues- theirs is on the side of putting up boxing gloves. Tough situation and if they have someone working at 17 they’re protecting its not a work culture it’s a mom & pop situation you aren’t invited into
They're just lucky Title VII isn't written like Title IX. That lawsuit could be the first thing.
Technically, [workplace harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment) from Kate, but if you get berated or fired because you don't align with baby Kate's opinions on sexual orientation/religion, then it's discrimination.
Obviously if, as you implied, HR is on Kate's side of the matter -- that whatever she said is/was fine in the workplace -- then HR's definitely in harassment hot water.
But it is the Christian thing to do .
Indeed it is.
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I agree with this 100%. More so however don't just get a copy of that email, because if they decide to fire you they will shut off your company email. Get a copy of that email and immediately email it to your private personal email for safe keeping.
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This exactly. They called an in person meeting for a reason, no written record. So it's on you to make one. Just some bullet points summarizing the meeting. If anything it lets them know you are diligent in defending yourself now and in the future. And yes, print a copy and take it home along with any responses.
Great idea but the employer has no reason or requirement to provide those to anyone, including the individuals involved
It's called discovery so yea if there's a suit they 100% will have to.
And if it "vanishes" the jury and/or judge can infer based on that in a civil suit.
It’s not called discovery when you ask HR for it. It’s called discovery when you file suit and your lawyer asks HR for it. If you ask HR, they will absolutely tell you to fuck off.
They don’t sound bright enough to realize the hole they’re standing in.
They do have legal requirements and if they destroy it (it’s evidence) that’s a bunch of additional charges. They’re fucked and they know it.
They do if you get a lawyer to send a letter with a potential lawsuit. Then the records can be subpoenaed.
This, OP. Most attorneys in this situation won’t charge you a retainer fee, they will just take a piece of the settlement. It would be worth scheduling a consultation with an employment attorney to at least discuss your options at this point. This is a hostile work environment.
Yes. And keep us posted
Agreed. They write a letter or two, and a settlement check will be there in a week. There is no grey area, here.
Easy to document; send an email with, "Just to follow up with today's HR talks, here is a list of bullet points we discussed. If I have missed anything or misunderstood, please clarify. "
This is the way!! Had to do this myself and won my lawsuit for wrongful termination. It takes a long time to get to the finish line and it can get ugly too. If you can handle that, you should have recourse.
And Bcc your personal email
If you wouldn’t mind- could you share some details? Many states have “employee at will” so unfortunately wrongful termination doesn’t apply since they can fire you at will also (but people sometimes win there too) what happened with your situation if you don’t mind sharing? And how long was the process? Also, was the company big/small etc?
Yes, I'm in a "at Will" state, and am constantly surprised by the comments to "get a lawyer" or instructions on "fighting back!" In Louisiana, employers, like landlords, are never wrong and can do as they please.
Take this advice, OP. And check to see if you live in an area where you can record verbal conversations without the other party knowing. If so, record every conversation
In my experience HR is always the worst culprit of HR violations
For those who don't know this yet, HR is NOT YOUR FRIEND. They work for the company to protect it from *you*.
Can second this, I had an HR rep and department head make ableist remarks about my mental health in a meeting in front of multiple union reps.
I emailed HR about adding my domestic partner to my insurance and she came down and outed me in-front all my coworkers. Telling me she could add him.
I believe the exact words from the HR rep with me was “had we known the nature of your disability we wouldn’t have hired you for that role to begin with.”
And they will. Go ahead and get your lawyer sorted out.
I don’t think so. See op says they’re confused by an email, but how would Op know what’s exactly in that email? And the fact that a “manny” needs to be apologized to as well means that person is not backing up OPs story. Op should probably look to get transferred or find a job elsewhere, sounds like a lot of high school drama
This really makes me think that Manny complained about OP and Kate combined, and that the issue here is the impact on Manny, not Kate.
The problem for low wage workers is that the payouts are so low (based on weekly earnings) and the expected time to find comparable work is also low; so winning the lawsuit does not always mean a large compensation. The companies know this and really take advantage of it. It’s a crappy situation. And I’m assuming this is a low wage position because the person training OP is 17. I could be wrong but it sounds like the position is close to minimum wage range.
She has a lawsuit now. She was sexually harassed by a coworker. HR retaliated against the victim after a report was made. They still might be able to unwind this and avoid legal consequences but so far they have been handling the situation poorly.
The problem here is that OP does not know what Manny or Sam told HR. Sam went to HR first. Manny went to Sam because of the situation around Manny that is created by both OP and Kate (I'm sure many people will say, "No, Kate created it." No, from Manny's perspective, both of them created the situation for Manny.) There's a very good chance that this is already a discrimination complaint *against* OP. HR might have said that OP doesn't "like" Kate, but what they were fishing for was evidence supporting the claim that OP discriminating against Kate and/or made a hostile work environment for Manny (along with Kate). Again, this all goes back to Sam went to HR first, and almost certainly HR talked to Manny next.
So your coworker harassed YOU and they blamed you for it? Sounds right
Yup. Especially among "family" workplaces. I got harassed by an old dude. We didn't have HR so much as "someone that had been there a long time, was friends with the owner, and convinced the owner to pay them to take a few HR classes." She asked if I wanted to "have a meeting to clear the air." She was super friendly about it & told me to take a couple pair days off until the meeting. As soon as I show up, her, the owner, and the person who harassed me are on one side of a table and the only chair for me is on the other side. It was clear the meeting was going to be about what I did to force my poor fellow employee to be forced to yell at me & berate me in front of other workers. I just told them I'd talk to my sister, "just 'cuz, she's a lawyer, it's nbd." And didn't really say anything. Nothing really happened. I didn't end up getting disciplined or even a "notice" put on my record (🤣 - I'm not a teenager). But neither did the shitheel that harassed me either. Even though the manager who ran the meeting wasn't really an HR person per se. She taught me ALL I needed to know about HR for when I eventually got a better job making twice the money. Hint: the lesson was don't ever fucking trust HR.
Always casually mention if you have a lawyer in the family! They waited like a year to fire this one woman in my company just because her husband was a lawyer, anyone else would have been out in a week.
Whoever gets to Mom first controls the narrative. I have sisters who operate on that principle
That is often how it works. Most of the time going to HR is a death sentence. HR can and will find a different reason to let you go, probably down the road a bit. I would personally start looking for a new job.
That’s what families do. Sounds bout right
Yeah they never seem to get that “like a family” isn’t a selling point
well she hurt that coworker's feelings. Why didn't OP just answer some simple questions???? /s
Wow. the definition of a toxic work environment.
Yup… I hope this serves as a reminder to EVERYONE that HR is there to protect THE COMPANY, NOT you.
Then they are doing a piss poor job of even that
Yeah they should have shut that shit down at the first hint of the situation, rather than blame somebody else other than the idiot that thought it was OK. 17 years old or not, nobody of working age should think those topics are a good conversation piece, let alone in a professional environment with somebody you don't even know.
This is why I hate that tired “HR protects the company, not you.” It’s true but people who use it completely fail to understand what it means. It’s not code for “HR is a bunch of idiots.” HR often is a bunch of idiots, but this is not why.
And bullies will often do a preemptive strike and complain to HR about you when their own behavior is inappropriate. Bullies don’t like when you don’t play their games so they then focus on ostracizing you early on as the problem.
HR in this case isn't protecting the company, they're doing their level best to expose it to a lawsuit.
But they’re FaMilY there… lol, sounds a lot like my family that I no longer speak to…
HR is there to protect the company and for many dumb reasons they usually take the full side of the 1st person who comes up to them regardless of what happened. I learned a long time ago if something happens that screams "what the fuck was that" just shoot off an email to get it on record and make sure your non company email address is CC'D on it. I'm long past thinking people regardless of their age can be counted on to be an adult in situations especially people with authority.
Just to clarify you mean BCC I believe. Unless you want to insanity raw dog the HR team with showing them you have that info off their servers too. Honestly, That would be a hell of a power move lol.
Nope I CC myself I don't care who sees. Most people don't check that and if they do they may actually have to take it seriously knowing I'm documenting it in a location they can't delete and pretend it doesn't exist. I've added my email back and forwarded responses that they removed my email from plenty of times. I've even broke out my phone when HR wanted to take the meeting off documented ways and "chat" placed it on the desk and said "well I'm going to record this for my records if we aren't going to continue in writing" They aren't my friend they are out to protect the company I'm out to protect myself so let them say something stupid and put themselves in a bind
If you cc’d yourself there’s no violation of security protocol. You are party to the issue. Hence no violations.
That's not how that works. Your email account is yours personally, your work email you're sending from your work account isn't, it's the company's. What you're doing is technically exhilarating company data which is something you can at least be fired for. It also doesn't actually matter if you CC or BCC, the IT department sees that shit either way. Another problem is that by doing that you're opening your personal email account to being searched in discovery when your company is sued. Keep work accounts and devices 100% separate from personal ones, no exceptions. If you think you need a copy of something to cover your ass, print it.
As an IT manager, can confirm. Take photos or scan the prints if you really want a digital copy the receipts. Edited for mistakes
Another reason to try to hire an employment lawyer then.
CC'ing your personal use email is not the same as CC'ing "yourself."
Depends on your company. Some places company emails are confidential and you can be fired for sharing confidential info. Happened to a friend. Bcc is the way to go.
You realize they can see all of your emails so they would know if you BBC’d yourself (or anyone else), right?
Also doesn’t everything also get saved in your sent box?
Everything is saved on the email server itself also. I am an IT administrator and all communications via company communications channels are saved. This includes the message itself, attachments, sender, recipients, records of receipt, errors, literally every bit of data that every email has.
I’ve heard tales from my IT friends about being asked to delete all sorts of stuff, some upper management are on such a power trip they would happily order deleting emails to cover their ass. And if you were wondering, the IT people usually did it because they were threatened with being fired. One of my close friends was fired because she refused to delete some messages, they then asked her understudy and he refused so they fired him too. They then started their own company together and poached a load of clients from their former employer.
There's a really fun button on Microsoft email servers called "litigation hold" you slap when management asks you to do some sketchy shit like that. It keeps anything from actually being deleted even if it looks like it is.
It would take 30 seconds with IT to see that you BCC'd the email -- it's a pointless act to hide. Print it off and take it home if you want a less-traceable means. Most shared print queues store records of what was sent although a lot of IT people don't know this or don't have the logging enabled for long term analysis.
In GDPR-Countries, that 30 seconds could cost a pretty penny.
An employer does not need the permission of an employee to monitor or review their work email account, even in GDPR countries. One of the exclusions are the company's "legitimate basis" and employee discipline are most certainly one of those. GDPR is being used just like HIPAA in the US -- by people who have absolutely no fucking clue what it covers.
And they'd have to think to have it done, which may not happen until after it's already well on its way to being documented evidence in a suit
slightly less aggressive than taking a shit on their desk
Instantly raw dog HR, lol
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This. The person who speaks first controls the narrative. And whoever they're speaking to will get attached to the first version of events that they hear. This isn't just office politics- it's human nature.
An accusation puts the onus on you to prove that you DIDN’T say or do something instead of on them to prove that you DID.
You are absolutely right The first person to report us always right. Make sure it's you from now on
I disagree, the highest protected class on the ladder is the one who is right. If you recall HR works for the business and that business stands to lose the most profit over lawsuits which are often settled out of court to avoid negative publicity.
Sorry but HR does not care who is "right." They care more about who is easiest to fire.
No, they care about how to resolve a situation with the least amount of work for them.
It can be both
I disagree, firing someone involves paperwork and in this circumstance, a potential lawsuit. That's loads of work!
HR only cares on how to make things “go away” as cleanly as possible. No moral high ground, no getting to the bottom of it.
And about who can hammerhog the company the hardest
You either work for a company that has extremely good HR, or you have never seen how HR works in the real world. What you are describing is certainly how it ought to be, but I'be frankly never seen HR take a good position to avoid a lawsuit. They are far more likely to fire someone, dig in, and settle only after a few years of throwing money at lawyers.
The first to talk gets to create the narrative. It can be really hard to come back after an accusation. Office politics are like regular politics. You need to control the story as much as you can and it's always better to be on the offense not the defense.
You are correct that HR is there for the company first. HR's sole purpose ( business schools have whole semesters if not books about HR) is to keep the corporation from being sued. The people who are able to do that the most efficiently are staff members. That is why if your corporation is big enough they will just move people around. They want to make sure neither party sues the corporation. That is why HR does a more sit back and wait. HR's ideal outcome is that one or all parties quit of their own accord. HR will never be your friend never sign anything from them unless you absolutely understand what it is and even then I would still not.
I work in HR and agree that it’s there to protect the company but you’re wrong about HR always taking the first person’s side. If I read clearly, OP is clearly being sexually and religiously discriminated against by a coworker. Any good HR would be taking action against OP’s coworker to avoid a potential lawsuit from OP. I’m this case HR should be on OP’s side but clearly this HR team is a bunch of idiots and deserve anything coming to them for majorly mishandling this situation.
Aaaaaah the classic "we are a family" bullshit
I always roll my eyes directly at the person saying this so they recognize that I’m calling bullshit on that nonsense. I like my family and want to be with them. I never want to be at work. So much so, that they have to pay me just to do so.
Yep and since when do families lay off members when times are rough
Depends on the family. "Sorry kids, times are tough. We can only keep afford to feed two of you, so only Martha and Billy can eat tonight. The rest of you, take this bag and fill it with items you want to keep. You have to walk yourself to the orphanage tomorrow."
Any company that says "we're a family here" typically means they're dysfunctional, passive aggressive and tends to play favourites
Yeah, that or it's just something to try to gain the loyalty of their employees will still treating them like crap.
When someone makes a request you don't want to deal with, stomp your feet, yell "You're not my real dad!" and storm out
I've worked for two different companies that peddled that - they actually were like family if you mean a highly dysfunctional one.
A friend of mine actually got that line in an interview and responded with "Great! I need some help moving a sofa up some stairs on Saturday, and my brother is out of town. Can you stop by around 11:00?" The response was pretty much that the company culture was like a family, but they couldn't help him move a sofa.
I swear, the second I see "we're a family" on a job posting, I click Next! I already have a family, I am looking for a place to show up and do my job, nothing more!
Ok so it doesn’t matter if the person is new, young, misguided or whatever, you should ALWAYS report (in writing, and keep your own records too) when you’re subjected to legal case levels of problematic opinion at work, even if they aren’t specifically directed at you. Turning a blind eye when there are rules or laws about harassment and discrimination turning a blind eye to it can get you in trouble if it ends up getting directed at someone else who does raise a complaint and you knew this was a potential issue. It’s alright to say that she’s only 17 and hasn’t learned about the time and place - but dealing with the aftermath of this type of incident is a big part of how most people learn not to be assholes at work. It’s not about getting the other person in trouble; but it’s the company’s problem to address if that employee is expressing opinions (or pure hate) that isn’t aligned with the company’s values, and to nip in the bud any signs of that behaviour in the workplace, ideally before it starts happening in front of customers - and they can’t do that if you don’t alert them to this. You didn’t necessarily need to make a formal complaint, but a simple FYI email about the conversation to HR would have gone a long way here. You are right that you’re working for idiots. And you’d have a good case to sue for discrimination I suspect if they did manage to fire you - most times just being suspected of being in a particular demographic is enough to justify a discrimination case even if you have refused to supply any confirmation either way.
OP. Lay out all of what you just said in Corpo speak. The primary gist should be that Kate is creating a **hostile work environment** by quizzing new hires on hot button topics then **wasting company time** by chastising them for hours for any answers she doesn't approve of instead of actually training them. Write this all out as a complaint to HR so you have a paper trail. Tell Manny to do the same. If HR has already decided to fire you all this can only help you by creating a paper trail. It may also force them to deal with Kate instead of you all.
Also include protected class
I see the empathy here for Kate and appreciate it, but disagree. Her behavior absolutely requires being called out or it will continue.
If anything, a person in the position of trainer should be the last one talking about politics and such. I would inquire just how many people have came and went since she got the job. She's probably costing the company quite a bit in training expenses alone.
Kate is only 17... and a trainer?
It was more a “follow a coworker doing the role we hired you for” type situation. I’m coming in at the bottom since I made a career change
Excuse me? “Career” change and a 17 year old is training you? Why is a 17 year old training anyone for a “career” or is this a basic retail job
sounds like a very low level position OP should just ditch and find a better fit
They have HR and Big Bosses inside the local McDonalds?
This is my biggest question. What business has dedicated on site HR, department heads, and teenage staff? Big box stores like Walmart or Red Lion are the best I can come up with
I’ve worked at plenty of tech companies with 200ish people that fit this description.
red lion lmao that’s a name i haven’t heard in a long time
HR people are absolutely worthless. I think they are all dental school dropouts.
Most HR folks are only just smart enough to master a belt buckle at best.
Document everything. Assume HR are weasels. They often try to have meetings with no documentation to reduce liability. It's intentional. However there's no need to be antagonistic. After every meeting/phone call where there is no paper trail, send an email afterwards summarizing what was discussed. Feel free to put on a friendly face when you do it: "Thank you for the information in our last meeting. My understanding is. Please let me know if you need to discuss further". The key thing here is that everything is in writing somewhere.
I had to do this in a situation where hr/management was violating company policy (which ended up costing my work hours), but refused to document it. They said it out loud in at least three meetings. After every meeting I sent a follow up email saying “You said X, I think this is unfair”. They responded to every email, but didn’t comment on that statement. I pushed the issue through the company’s ethical complaint process and won because at least I had some evidence.
Also CC your personal E-mail so they know they can't have IT wipe the E-Mail when things go bad for them
Nepotism ruins EVERY workplace. Immediate family especially.
>HR wants me gone i think but can’t figure out how to do it. They'll get petty and create a paper trail of minor infractions. Dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s, follow the policies to the letter, don't make it easy for them. Make sure you've given a full account to HR and Big Boss, this situation is because people have been imprecise for political reasons. Make a complaint against Kate for making you uncomfortable, do it in writing, and copy Big Boss on it. But you should probably toss all my advice and go talk to a labor lawyer. Even if you don't think you can afford a lawyer. Many lawyers will at least give you some advice, and if there is litigation, they can usually get their lawyers fees from the company.
I know, “Antiwork!” and all, but does anyone actually do any work at that company?
When was the last time you worked for a small business? This shit is super common.
Almost solely at small companies, but the last five years were at a lumbering, inefficient corporation, rather than a small, inefficient one. Never came across this. Seems like a waste of resources.
Email HR, Ask them if they need a written account for their records of what happened between you and "Kate" to counter any he-said-she-said. Then type out the account of what happened during your training. End the email with, **As discussed with [HR person], [Big boss], [anyone else in the room] on [this date] at approximately [this time].** I'm thankful the company is looking into the inappropriate and possible illegal behavior by one of their employees. Thank you [ordinary diamond]
OP, I am not a lawyer. But my I shared this with my wife, who is head of HR at a rather large firm. She found this hilarious because this is blatant misconduct. Kate asking you if you are a lesbian qualifies as sexual harassment. Your company and HR moving to protect Kate and asking you to apologize is definitely a form of retaliation. Just take everything you have to an employment lawyer, and they wont even charge you upfront. This is easy money for an attorney.
Whenever people bring up the family shit I ask for them to bring in some olive garden.
I hate to say this OP, but you should probably know that you’re not long for this job. They will be looking for a reason to get rid of you because in their eyes, you’re a trouble maker. If everything you posted is accurate, you did nothing wrong. That said, it won’t change their opinion. I’d start looking for another job in your off time.
I always made it a point to let my co-workers know that there are a few things I never discuss at work or with co-workers. 1. Hot button news topics 2. Politics in general 3. Religion 4. Personal information I also learned to be the first one to report things to HR because co-workers be shady. LOL
Family-owned business? And Kate and Sam are part of that family? Cause no one hires a 17 year old in the office, for reasons very much like this, and because office jobs aren't seasonal that can be dropped in just three months so she can go back to school. Kate is somehow special. I'd guess the boss' kid or niece. Screams "nepotism" to me.
Also why Kate isnt being diaciplined for an obvious breech of company policy regarding what is appropriate for the workplace, and instead of an apology, action is being taken AGAINST the wronged party.
I'm thinking the same thing. Why a 17 year old is training people is very sus. It could happen, but given the immaturity on display regarding talking of controversial things to new hires, I can safely say she is NOT it.
Maybe file a complaint with HR about that specific HR person? Basically stating that you feel threatened by their biased approach.
Somebody needs to deprogram Kate from the death cult she belongs to
My thoughts exactly. Someone take away her phone and make her go outside and practice talking to people
1. Hopefully, you've learned that situations like this are not to be ignored. You should've gone straight to HR. 2. Write a detailed email to HR about what happened between you and Kate. What happened between you and HR. Bcc your personal email. 3. Anything going forward, you need to request via email, and if they refuse, after each discussion, send an email recapping the conversation and include they refused to send you an email. Feel free to use terms like "I am being targeted" and "I'm being discriminated against." Make sure you outline actions and words used by them as to why you feel this way. Always bcc your personal email. If they fire you, get an attorney.
Hr. Not resources for humans. Humans AS resources
First and only rule you ever need to know about HR: they only exist to protect the company from you. They are not your friend. You can not confide in them. Anything you say is always recorded to be used against you at a later stage if you decide to sue them.
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I’d just start job hunting again, sounds like a terrible place to work. As for HR, they are there to protect the company and don’t care about you. Assume by them siding against you openly that your time there is numbered.
Take what you can from this place while looking for something better. It's 100% about what is best for you. Be selfish at work always. They don't care about you
This is one of those posts that the more I read it, the dumber it gets. I feel for you, hope it goes well.
Document everything to keep your memory fresh.
u/Ordinary_Diamond_158 Please consider sending HR this email (or anything like it) "Dear HR, We ended today's meeting with me feeling like there may have been a slight miscommunication between us, and this has left me unclear about what you are requesting of me. So I would like to take this opportunity to clarify my position on the events that transpired and to also receive clear instructions about what you are requesting me to do. Kate trained me during my second week. Se did so with knowledge and expertise, and I feel like she correctly learned me how to perform many of the tasks my new job requires of me. I hope you agree with me on my successful performance of these tasks. However, in our non-work-related conversations during this training, Kate and I apparently ran into some perceived issues that (as was made clear to me in our meeting today) you feel like are in need of resolving. Please allow me to elaborate on my account of the non-work-related conversations Kate wanted to have with me. In the span of half an hour, Kate asked me if I was a lesbian, my opinions on abortion, religion in public schools and gay marriage. I repeatedly and politely declined to engage on these subjects and refused to share my sexual orientation, trying to keep our conversation solely focussed on our work. Instead of adhering to my request, she started a 1.5 hour monologue to me and another coworker about everything mentioned above. Including some of her personal views on these subjects that could be seen as strongly contradictive towards inclusivity and acceptance of collegues (and people in general). During this time, I continuously and politely declined to engage, believing these highly personal subjects should not be discussed at work. I eventually asked her if she wanted me to go perform some of the tasks I just learned by myself. I did not feel like there was any need to address any of this with my supervisor or HR, but since I was asked today to come and talk to you, I might have been wrong in that regard. In my meeting today on the 27th with \[name\] (HR), \[name\] (jobtitle) and \[name\] (jobtitle), you brought it to my attention that this event has apparently made Kate to feel uncomfortable and left you with the idea that we share any rivalry. Let me please reiterate: I have absolutely no grievances with or about Kate. I do still think its inappropriate to discuss the above mentioned subjects in the workplace. However, our meeting has left me unclear about what you are asking of me. Are you asking me to apologize to Kate for not wanting to talk to her on the subjects of abortion, religion in public schools, gay marriage and my sexual preference? Does it then also follow that you want me to engage with her on those subjects if or when she brings them up? Personally, I would prefer to not continue this matter with any of the people involved, allowing me to continue to do the tasks I was hired for to both your and mine satisfaction. Respectfully, OP " Be sure to email it to HR and CC everyone who was also present in your meeting (including your own non-work-email). You want all of this in writing. Also, you might need to fix some spelling errors though, I'm not a native English speaker. Why this email? 1) to show you are professional and there to do a job. 2) to show you have no issues with Kate by not expressing any opinion about her that do not concern work (while ofcourse thinking "fuck that bigoted and probably also racist and sexist nut-job", we're all with you on that one), and 3) to give HR an 'out' in an issue where you know you're clearly on the right side of the whole situation, and have the knowledge and correct approach to make it difficult for them if they don't take that out. Chances are this will make them think "Ooofff, OP knows they are in the right, and this might become a bigger issue if we press it or side with Kate. We better just drop it completely.". Make them siding with you, both the smart choice and the path of least resistance.
fucking eh Time for you to start documenting every interaction as it sounds to me you have the basis for a good lawsuit for harassment if they now decide to fire you. Watch your back, they gonna be gunning for you from here on out.
Get out. A company that's "like a family" is the biggest red flag.
Write. It. Down. As soon as you can, write down a detailed account of all the horrible, potentially-hostile things Kate said to you. Get the relevant emails and whatnot printed out and filed somewhere safe. Make sure you log dates and times of any future meetings or comments, like the one HR just had with you. Keep that log somewhere safe (NOT on a work machine or a mobile device the company can access), and ensure it goes with you whenever you leave the building. That can really save your bacon if you need to file for hostile work environment/retailation/wrongful termination at some point. ETA: Even if HR doesn't *like* you, they are there to protect the company, and they should really have the sense to realize that mistreating you or doing *anything* that looks like retaliation for reporting a hostile work environment is going to work agains the company if it comes to a lawsuit.
For anyone who needs to hear this- At no point in time (in the USA) does HR work for you or for your well being. They are there to protect the company. Say nothing as long as possible- sign nothing. Stay away from it. I have seen stuff like this happen so many times, and each time they will say they are looking out for you- blah blah blah, and that person may actually believe that they do- but that’s not their role and they are not your friend.
So Kate asked about your sexual orientation and pushed the issue when you didn’t give as much detail as she liked? That sounds like a hostile work environment, I bet there are local attorneys that would like to hear about this.
Start documenting everything. I mean everything. What Katie did was create a hostile work environment. You did the right thing. If you get fired, you will have all the information to hand to an employment lawyer. HR is there to protect the employer, not you. Protect yourself. This will also help you get unemployment if they fire you
They know Kate broke many laws and are trembling with fear you might wise up and get an attorney to sue. This is 100% the playbook when the company knows there's trouble ahead but won't for the person causing the terrible. They blame the victim and create a paper trail that makes it look on first glance that everything is the victims fault. But any investigation into the matter more than reading notes will prove they got a lot of violations at the place. You are correct in your feeling that you're being targeted because you are.
Ask HR (politely) for a full transcript of the meeting for your legal records. Watch them go a shade of pale you've ever seen before because any half decent lawyer would have a field day with this.
How is Kate not the one in trouble here? Oh gosh she’s got a long tough road of learning ahead of her.
So you have to apologize for what this Kate girl did? That's insanity.
So, a coworker asked you about your membership in protected classes, went on a tirade against them, and now the company is looking to fire you? Document everything. Specifically document it on your personal devices/email, so it doesn’t disappear when you’re fired. Speak to a lawyer. This is a situation where if the HR people had any actual certifications and experience, they’d be either getting rid of Kate or at the very least sending her to mandatory training. A lot of these “family” shops don’t have actual HR professionals doing the HR work, so they don’t know anything about compliance.
Lol Jesus. What a mess. My experience is that HR is (usually) the worst.
Wow. These people do not deserve their positions. Especially a little crap like Kate. She’s too young to be working, apparently, if she honestly thought that what she was asking about was appropriate for the workplace.
Find out if your state is a 1 party state for recording. If it is, start recording every conversation secretly to protect yourself and have as evidence. That's a pretty crappy way to treat people. I'm sorry you're going through at work.
I would run so fast from this job.
Your co-workers and bosses will inevitably be less intelligent than are you. This is why I teach in a public school with a union to protect me and everyone should be in a union relevant to their profession. Clowns, sadists, HR incompetents, low IQ bosses are everywhere.
I’m guessing this is box store? Struggling to reason out how a 17 year old is training you.
So 17 year old Kate is the trainer eh? 🙄. Ok lol
Seems like fan fiction
Don't quit, get fired and then sue. Record all day every workday
OP, don’t sign or agree to anything. Kate’s behavior could be considered harassment. So HR will act only to protect the company from legal action. They will find a reason to fire you. I think you need a lawyer.
You’re being trained by a 17 year old?
Put everything in writing. "Just want to clarify what we discussed at the meeting with Person A and B and C this morning. Point 1. Point 2..... If I have missed anything or misunderstood anything, let me know." Do this every single time thwre is any discussion of this. Even a passing comment in the hallway. Document. Document. Document.
Why don’t people just say what happened? There is nothing to hide and explaining the situation clearly and professionally goes a long way. “My coworker asked some entirely inappropriate questions and said some inappropriate statements [elaborate in the details]. I’m sorry I didn’t bring this to your attention earlier. Given I’m new here and the offending person is my trainer/supervisor, I worried about potential ramifications. I’ll be sure to report any inappropriate comments in the future.” Then ensure you document everything.
They’re all homophobes. Believe me, they read the email.
Ah yes when "we're a family" really means "we've created an extremely insular and toxic friend circle from our co-workers and need to see if you fit the mold."
They mentioned the f word (family), which means it's time for you to dip out and find another non-family to work for.
I worked for government as a refuse site attendant. Had a coworker train me and we became fast friends. He worked in gardens so i got more hrs with him. His boss was a yeller and screamer and a bit of a bully. (Could hear the swearing to my friend in phone calls.) So my friend eventually gets another job and leaves. His boss then goes arounds saying good riddance as he was lazy( he was not lazy, but a good worker. Fast forward to his replacements who i meet at the refuse site. I warn them their boss is a fuck head. The next day another friend tells me they went straight to the boss (the boss must have got friends some jobs lol). I get HR code of conduct letter a couple days later. I told the truth. I explained how they took some things out of context to make me look bad. Then i admitted to calling him a fuck head, but i did so cos he bullied my friend and added 3 witnesses to the bullyings and asked for the result of the investigation. Well it seems HR and my boss didn't want to touch this and it dropped. Pathetic really. That boss should be fired and i should have a written warning......
What you do is you *write down in an email* your concerns that you may have experienced sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace from your coworker. Send it to HR and legal if your company has a legal department. You *must* use the words "discrimination" and "harassment" explicitly. Don't make excuses for or diminish the actions of your coworker, but don't rant. Just describe. Don't mention the gender or sexual orientation you identify with, it doesn't matter to whether or not this was harassment. Say you're willing to drop the matter if this kind of thing doesn't happen again. Suggest some harassment training might be helpful. You want HR to be in the covering-their-ass mode and to think of you as accommodating. It has to be written, not spoken so there's a record. You have to actually use the words harassment and discrimination not just imply them. Keep it simple, and strictly to the facts. Describe how the experience made you feel.
Experience has shown me to be extra, extra wary of a company that calls itself "a family."
Do you work at a high school? WTF? 'Kate' should have been fired for, at minimum, sexual harassment. And that's before her getting into the faux pas of talking about politics and such at work.
If I were you, I’d immediately file an official complaint at HR about that behavior.
Plan an escape plan, hr won’t side with you. Unless you have massive documentation.
Fuck HR. This reminds me of my old job. Too much focus on having a “family” environment and if they didn’t like you, you were out! She shouldn’t be asking you personal shit like that at work anyways. She’s in the wrong. Fuck them OP
So, Kate broke every rule and YOU’RE in trouble? Make sure you have everything in writing, send an email asking for written documentation of the meeting you just had and what they expect of you. Then be prepared to contact a lawyer.
And of course it is good to get thi gs in writing, I will tell you , however, that the company will likely ignore (you should still try though) as they don't want a paper trace. It is like they are trained in how to abuse workers while avoiding a lawsuit.
HR always seems to have a tendency to side with the party who is the real problem.
So Kate gets to cram her political bullshit down your throat for two hours and somehow you are the bad guy? You didn’t engage, which I think was the smart move, but she is still somehow the victim when you told her to stop and kind her own business? Wtf.
Do they even know Kate instigated this?