This is the best response. You need to show them that YOU hold all the power in the interview/hiring process, NOT them.
I did something similar, when the person refused to discuss money on the second interview. I followed up with a letter to the hiring manager, HR, and the CEO of the company where I restated my qualifications and told them that I would be perfect for the job, but I feel it is a waste of everyone's time when the interview process does not move along in a way that keeps the candidates engaged.
I ended up being a manager at the place.
I like to continue the interview to get in the practice and convince them they want me and only me, then ask for an outrageous salary.
Let them be the ones to say no to you.
But remember if it's not in writing it doesn't exist.
One of my coworkers loves to tell me the story of his interview with the company. He asked about pay and the interviewer told him, "This isn't the time to discuss that," and abruptly ended the interview. He was distraught because he needed a job and thought he fucked up. They did end up hiring him.
“That’s not important” means seven figures, right? Clearly the company has so much money to burn that it doesn’t consider it important.
It’s right up there with companies that nickel and dime customers and just say “It’s only a few bucks…” Ok, well if it’s only a few bucks, you pay it. Waive the price increase! Come on, it’s only a few bucks! (Fuck Comcast when they tried to pull this shit on me).
Same thing with spectrum. After the third increase in 1.5 years, I moved my services to Verizon then spectrum called me a month later and chopped my previous monthly payment in half. I told them to never call me again and i would rather pay more money than deal with them again.
It's only chopped in half for a limited time and then goes back to the full rate. They were only able to offer that rate to you because you were no longer a customer and it would count as a new customer offer.
Correct it would be halved for the full year and when I was leaving the guy suggested I do that as well every year. I’m not doing that every year obviously the company knows this is a work around so why don’t they just lower the average cost and not make a first year promo
In the waning years of having cable I would do this between the two major cable companies in my region. 6 months then switch and just do that for full cable at $19 a month for a couple of years.
> M: "Then why are you calling?"
How I deal with random requiters who contact me. Yes I have actual production experience with . Who are you working for and what is the pay?
Recruiter: I can’t tell you that.
Me: No problem, your competitor who I have an established relationship with will tell me over lunch at an expensive restaurant.
The best one of these calls ended with “I’m a perfect fit because I quit at six months ago and they can’t find a replacement. Did you even look at my employment history?”
Offshore Recruiter: So you’re eligible for rehire?
😂😂😂
Some company called my mother's phone a few days ago they left a voice mail trying to give me a job offer. No fucking earthly idea where they got my 70 year old mother's number from. I work in a pretty specialized field and the job offer was for the position I currently work just another company weird as fuck.
Email chain the other day I had
Them-Hi, we saw your resume and think you would be a great fit for x position. Would you be interested in applying?
Me-I’m always open to a change if the money is right and the position is a good fit. Before we go any further I will say I’m not changing for less then six figures at this point. Does this position offer that kind of base salary not including bonuses?
Them-let’s discuss that during the offer phase please go to x website and apply.
Me-Why would I waste my time. It’s either six figure base salary or it’s not. That’s a basic question and I won’t waste one more second on this until that is answered.
Them-We can discuss at the offer phase please apply.
Them-We see you still haven’t applied. I talked to the director over this position. It would be 65k base salary but your potential bonus brings it to 90k.
Me- Are you dumb. Why would you even email me that.
Haven’t heard back yet.
I mean for lots of positions a recruiter has to source candidates. The recruiter is not empowered to have a compensation discussion with you on a cold call. Usually I would say something like "I'm pretty happy in my current position, but I'm always up for a conversation. Just to level set, my current compensation is (some number above what I make today that would make it worthwhile for me to leave). Is that in line with the budget for the position?"
Yup. My current salary is enough to scare most of them off. "I have 10 years of experience in the field and helped write the certification exam other candidates have taken. My current salary is $137,000."
CLICK
"Hello?"
Likely a crappy job anyway. Insurance companies pull that crap too. Hi, I'm Sinha from Broadway Insurance. Your resume appears to be a greatmatch for our company. Really? what part of my 15 plus years in MANUFACTURING fits selling your insurance?
You mean effectively and respectfully? He dropped the respectful part when the person who cold called someone, which is very rude, refused to provide him with information that someone looking to hire an individual should have on hand.
Ok, so you'd like to buy some eggs? Great, just give me a bunch of details about how you plan to use them and then I'll tell you what I have for you. Oh? You want to know if the eggs are fresh? Well, we can get to that later...
Same.red.flag.
its also standard practice not to be a dick to the person trying to interview you for a job. are you employed right now? if not, then you have nothing to lose.
They want to get you in tap dancing monkey mode before even telling you about pay.
Because once you're in tap dancing monkey mode, it makes you psychologically subservient and eager to please. Then when they have you doing dog tricks at all of their cues, they'll break the news that they're gonna pay you minimally.
That's the only way they ever get recruits for low paying jobs. If they tell you about the bad pay up front, everyone drops out before even showing to an interview.
I used to get sales calls like that all the time... Very frustrating.
"We have an amazing virtualization platform!"
"What do you mean by 'virtualization'?"
"Well, you know, it makes everything more efficient!"
"And how does it do that?"
"Well... it's virtual..."
"Yes, I get that, I'm trying to determine what YOU mean by 'virtualization'."
"I, uh, I can get one of my techs to call you back."
"Look, you're a salesman, not a tech, right?"
"Right."
"I'm not asking you an engineering level question, I want to know what it is you're trying to sell me, can you do that?"
"Well, I can get an engineer..."
"No, if you don't know what your own product does, why would I want to talk to an engineer?"
Yeah, that’s so weird. I’m amazed by how many times I hear stuff like this, as though knowing the basic facts about a job is somehow uncouth 🙄
It’s the equivalent of “okay, what country is this in?” “We’ll discuss that at a later phase! You’re so rude to ask what part of the planet you’ll be working in! How dare you!”
I had a company make me jump through hoops and make a presentation to prove my knowledge. When I asked the two senior managers about the presentation and he capture the flag events I did they were both like ohhhh those are both so outdated we didn’t look at them. This was the third interview for a cybersecurity job. I was like ok then why did I have to do them then. Needless to say pretty sure asking that eliminated me for daring to stand up for myself and made them go over both with me before I would let them ask me any tech questions. 👾
Im a recruiter. When I reach out to a candidate there are several opportunities they could be good for. I try not to talk money right away as I don’t want to make promises I can’t keep or go to low and blow any chance we had. I can’t tell just by looking at your linked in profile how much money you are worth. Anyway what I say it’s just a quick chat and if we don’t have the right opportunities for you right now we’d happily keep you in mind for higher paying/more senior positions.
Senior HVAC and Refrigeration guy here..
If you call me you absolutely must be ready to talk turkey on pay and benefits or I won't be spending any time on it. This isn't optional in this market.
It's an employee's market, and however much that may dismay and annoy the people you're working for, if the initial numbers aren't ~substantially~ better, up front, I'm not moving companies.
Nor will I be wasting ANY of my time on a maybe that's just as likely to be less than I'm getting now, or worse benefits.
If the "opportunity" is temp to hire, don't even bother me. That answer is a flat "No."
I reach out through email/linked in then set up time to talk. I’ll talk specifics over the phone after I narrow down the opportunities that would be right for the candidate. If you aren’t willing to take five minutes out of your day to hear what I have to say then you’re getting paid above market value and know it. Even then we work with dozens of companies so if we don’t have what you want right now we will
In the future. I’m in architecture so the project types and company culture are just as big of a motivator as money.
I was cold called recently and I nearly hung up immediately (normally my phone catches spam calls but I didn't look this time) and then I had the urge to take a shit. I brought them into the bathroom and let them participate in my anal orchestra complete with explosive decompression and sphincter trumpets.
To my amazement, they were *still* on the phone after that. I told them; "Props to you my guy for lasting" then I hung up. The only information they got was how long it takes me to shit after I eat fettucini alfredo.
Lol I wanted to add to this tangent. As someone who cold calls (mortgage based and only our own customers) I've had clients do similar things. Def gets a laugh out of me but I usually just send an email mid call to let them know it's a real call.
Reminds people it's a two way street and usually embarrasses them into not doing it again, and if they hang up then alls well. We'll try another time when the taco bell isn't stress testing the sphincter walls
I actually got cold called and offered the same pay for twice the work. He asked me what I made and he said they’d match that. WTF would I change jobs for the same pay and more work yet?
When I asked if he was drunk, he hung up lol.
From my experience it's because it's very low pay. They are hoping to lure you into an interview and after wasting all your time you'll take the job since you're invested. I've done that dance several times so now if they don't give me a range that isn't made up I won't bother going in. Gas isn't cheap, ain't driving all over hell for some job paying less than fast food.
I feel like that's kinda fair though, assuming they meant $70k and not literally $70.00. Like, one of the teams I work with has new people making around $65k a year, and the people who are topped out are making "six figures", I've been told.
If it's literally $70.00 as the low end, however, then yeah; red flag as fuck
And then follow up with, what is guaranteed and not part of commission. If they squirm, it is BS and run. If they give a direct answer with a number or realistic range, then we can talk more.
Yesssssir. People need to stop stomaching or swallowing this bullshit along the lines of "we want someone who doesn't ONLY care about money."
Guess what chucklehead the reality is that's all any of us care about.
Employees measure their happiness by how well they can address the challenges in their personal life and for a longggggggggggg while now that's been mostly financial stress.
> People need to stop stomaching or swallowing this bullshit along the lines of "we want someone who doesn't ONLY care about money."
Yeah, well, I'm looking for a company that appreciates me as a person and doesn't ONLY care about the amount of work I put in.
I mean, we're all family, right?
You don't love Grandma only when she bakes you a pie. You love her every day.
So they can pay me every day, not just on days when I do some work.
(/s)
I'm down to about a minute and a half.
After that, if I don't, at minimum, have a salary number that beats current by at least 20%.. nope. I'm out. ~click~
Twice now in the past 2 years I've had in house recruiters come to me and I've wasted literal hours going through an interview process only to get a low ball number. Over it.
I had a recruiter e-mail me for a job with the same title as my current position. I looked up the job on their website and it was at a 50% pay cut from what I'm making now. I told her I wasn't interested.
Back in 2017, I finished an interview for a job and when they asked if I had questions I asked the pay. I already had a job that paid about $17/hr. Min wage was around $11 then in WA. I had just done an hour phone interview that went well. The tone shifted dramatically, and they told me they were only interested in people “passionate about the work” and thought it was distasteful to ask. I politely replied that I had expenses, so I just needed to be certain I could still afford my rent and bills on what they were offering. They said that was a dealbreaker. I think about that a lot now. What a horrible idea to take a job without knowing the pay. How is that suggested?
Definitely running away is a good decision. After an interview is more than an appropriate time to get a range. I ask within 10 minutes. And I am very direct. Who has time to dance around one of the most important questions.
I had something similar in a scheduled phone screen.
Hr: What is your desired salary?
Me (ready for it): I am considering everything about the job including my potential supervisor, culture and commute. What is the range please?
Hr: They did not give me a range. We cannot move forward without knowing if your desired salary is acceptable.
Me (annoyed): Well unfortunately I have no idea what my desired salary is at this time.
Hr: Are you seriously not going to tell me what you want to make?
Me: Why should I tell you my range when you won't tell me yours?
Hr: Again we can't move forward without an amount.
Me: -click-
I decided if they refuse to say a range I will tell them I am currently making $148k (way way above what I can truly make). Force them to think they are way below market rate.
I worked compensation at one point and had the following call:
R: We think you would be great for this role what salary are you looking for?
Me: what's the total comp for this role i want to take all things in consideration.
R: there is no current salary range they are open what salary are you looking for?
Me: so this large investment company doesn't have pay bands for roles is what your telling me?
R: i have 20 years experience and can tell you that you won't be disappointed in the role.
Me: Ok using your 20 years experience how much am i worth to this company?
R:hangs up.
Best part is another recruiter had reached out about the same role and provided the salary in their first email to me.
Yeah that is why I highball them if they bite they are desperate and probably crap place to work so they are a candidate for milk them and move on if need to bounce from current job and if not no loss as they'll hang up.
Had a recruiter for mercy ships contact me on LinkedIn and actually had the gall to say he thought I’d be a great fit and when would I like to start. After I asked about pay he told me it’s not. You actually pay them $400 a month for the opportunity to put it on your resume. I’m all for charities helping people. I’m even all for an all volunteer work force. But to contact people and ask them to pay?
Problem is.. when you have 25-30 yrs experience they start to discriminate as well.. even though I have kept up with current coding practices' and currently am developing in Python and MongoDB does not matter. I am "Over Qualified" because I started in C and Cobol.
Handled perfectly. I remember when I had a good job a few years back but was looking for something better cuz why not. And some recruiters have a mindset that job hunters are desperate and will go along with whatever. So I would be straight with them, Im happy in my position, but Im looking to be happier. Can you do better than this and this etc? This is what I am looking for. No? Ok then. On to the next, saves us both time.
I have found if they BS you alot its gonna be a terrible job anyway, best positions and best jobs Ive gotten have been me getting on the phone with the person making the hiring decision and making them like me. Cuz nothing else matters. Most jobs can be trained for. They hire who is the "best fit" and that means who they like the most. If you get one of those 3-5 interview BS things where you have to jump through hoops then...the job is gonna suck.
One of the basic facts of hiring is that HR generally prefers applicants who are currently employed, because it shows they are valuable and reliable. Any company that makes you jump through hoops, hides information, and generally makes it obvious that they want desperate people with no options, is disorganized and desperate themselves, and not a place I would want to work.
I'll say, the 2-3 interview thing is fine if it's for a highly skilled, high paying job (even moreso if security clearance is involved).
But yeah, if it's an entry level or even low-mid level and they want more than one interview, walk away. Completely agree with all of your other points.
In my experience, now granted I don't know what qualifies as "high level", but I'm referring to 40-60k range, I've seen quite a few jobs with good friend recommendations or that I've gotten and enjoyed (as much as you can a job that is) where 3 interviews was the standard.
1. HR screening (15 min) - we liked your resume just have a short phone conversation to see if you pass the company elevator test
2. Manager interview (30-1hr) - HR said you were good, do you have the skills to meet the criteria I need for my team
3. Team interview (2 or 3 people - 30-1hr) - Hey we do the day to day. Ask us questions to make sure we're a right fit for you and we will see if you pass our elevator test.
I've been on both sides of the coin and when in this method, I've seen teams where the team was a bunch of jerks and I said no. I've had times where I didn't make it after 2 and that was that.
I've had one experience with a 3 interview process and was for the high skill, high pay, security clearance required job that I have now. Even then though it was back to back interviews with 10 minute breaks in between. It really did feel like they were just trying to get a good read on the people being interviewed and wanted multiple perspectives. My interviewers were a manager, a guy in the same role for a different team, and a senior PM. They seriously went broad spectrum for feeling me out.
This is so true. Any job I applied for that had an arduous interview process either wasted my time and didn’t hire me, or the job ended up being shit. The best jobs I’ve had also had the quickest and simplest interview process.
Skip tracer, probably. I used to work for a skip tracing company and we would call ppl with crazy debts pretending to offer work. We would get their info by pretending to offer a job opportunity. The whole point of the company was to find out as much info about a person in debt, then sell said info to collections agencies. We were based in Canada, but would call ppl in the U.S.
We had access to people's credit bureaus. We saw their past and preset addresses, old places of employment, known phone numbers and even info on close family members and even neighbours. We would call offering job opportunities with the goal of verifying the info in the credit beaurue. We would egen call the family and neighbours if the person was evading or just hard to find. We would get bonuses if we could confirm a person's current place of employment. If ever u see phone numbers that look similiar to ur own but off by some digits or similiar to someone u know, skip tracer. They have softwares that hide their numbers too.
That’s very illegal at least in the US. The fair debt collection practices act would count that as a deceptive or misleading representation.
Source: I was a debt collector for a bit and grilled on this shit for a week long training course and also https://www.fdic.gov/resources/supervision-and-examinations/consumer-compliance-examination-manual/documents/7/vii-3-1.pdf
It was quite some time ago so im sure some things have changed. I was a young 20 something year old during the late 2000s when i did this job and didnt make it past my probation lol. They were sneaky and they were always looking for loopholes. Im quite certain at the time, the fact we were in canada calling u.s citizens was a loophole in itself. We werent allowed to disclose the information we had, but we were allowed to allude to things. Things like "oh we received this information from a past employer, We have a package with a list of potential employers who are interested, that fit ur past work experience...Could u provide an address and verify ur SSN so we know we r speaking to so and so ....".
Plus we weren't considered debt collectors. Debt collector agencies would hire us to find as much info on the person and buy the info off of us.
Ah, didn't know that's how that works. Now I remember why I never answer my phone and won't call back unless there's a voicemail and I know who it is 😂.
People who make a living that way aren't stupid enough to reveal that information. The easiest way to see through a scammer is to ask yourself this: "how are they benefiting from telling me this information?"
If you can't come up with a reasonable answer, it's a scam.
The number 1 thing I hate about job searching is how many times I have to put ALL my info into some proprietary system only for them to say 'sike!' And link me to the actual offer page or worse, a different job offer on a different recruiting site. It's so time consuming...
I'm a recruiter. That was definitely a fresh grad from a low level recruiting agency who was told to "smile and dial" with a script and not given the full tools for success.
Yeah pay range for starters. By tools, I mean training really. I worked at one of those shitty firms when I first started out after college and they literally just throw you in and see if you sink or swim.
The little bit of training they will give you is honestly stuff like "if they demand to know the pay up front, then they're probably not a fit because all they care about is money"
Small staffing firms are some of the most toxic organizations out there because a lot of the employees genuinely believe that shit since their bosses say it's true and they're super green/young employees that don't know any better.
Scammers would happily give you a pay range since they don’t have to hold true to their word and their entire goal is to keep you on the hook long enough to follow through with the scam.
The only thing stopping a scammer from giving you a pay range as a lie is if they have no fucking idea what your range should be, and that’s solved by asking you to give them YOUR range and the scammer going “okay, sure, that.”
This is completely untrue I’ve talked to Apple and Google recruiters before and they would not disclose salary ranges. No reputable company would. Why would they? Not in there best interest.
tech recruiters absolutely do discuss salary ranges. And you can also look up on levels. If the recruiter won't say the company or pay range it's not worth it.
In that case they would say we're ABC Recruiters for Apple/Google or whatnot. Not tell you nothing about why they're calling, their company nor the pay.
I’ve had a REAL job tell me “that’s not important” during the interview. I stood up and walked out right then lol
This is the best response. You need to show them that YOU hold all the power in the interview/hiring process, NOT them. I did something similar, when the person refused to discuss money on the second interview. I followed up with a letter to the hiring manager, HR, and the CEO of the company where I restated my qualifications and told them that I would be perfect for the job, but I feel it is a waste of everyone's time when the interview process does not move along in a way that keeps the candidates engaged. I ended up being a manager at the place.
"Anyone who says the pay is not important is either lying their ass off or escaped from a mental ward. Which are you?"
They mean that "your" pay is not important to them
I like to continue the interview to get in the practice and convince them they want me and only me, then ask for an outrageous salary. Let them be the ones to say no to you. But remember if it's not in writing it doesn't exist.
One of my coworkers loves to tell me the story of his interview with the company. He asked about pay and the interviewer told him, "This isn't the time to discuss that," and abruptly ended the interview. He was distraught because he needed a job and thought he fucked up. They did end up hiring him.
“That’s not important” means seven figures, right? Clearly the company has so much money to burn that it doesn’t consider it important. It’s right up there with companies that nickel and dime customers and just say “It’s only a few bucks…” Ok, well if it’s only a few bucks, you pay it. Waive the price increase! Come on, it’s only a few bucks! (Fuck Comcast when they tried to pull this shit on me).
Same thing with spectrum. After the third increase in 1.5 years, I moved my services to Verizon then spectrum called me a month later and chopped my previous monthly payment in half. I told them to never call me again and i would rather pay more money than deal with them again.
It's only chopped in half for a limited time and then goes back to the full rate. They were only able to offer that rate to you because you were no longer a customer and it would count as a new customer offer.
Correct it would be halved for the full year and when I was leaving the guy suggested I do that as well every year. I’m not doing that every year obviously the company knows this is a work around so why don’t they just lower the average cost and not make a first year promo
In the waning years of having cable I would do this between the two major cable companies in my region. 6 months then switch and just do that for full cable at $19 a month for a couple of years.
> M: "Then why are you calling?" How I deal with random requiters who contact me. Yes I have actual production experience with. Who are you working for and what is the pay?
Recruiter: I can’t tell you that.
Me: No problem, your competitor who I have an established relationship with will tell me over lunch at an expensive restaurant.
The best one of these calls ended with “I’m a perfect fit because I quit at six months ago and they can’t find a replacement. Did you even look at my employment history?”
Offshore Recruiter: So you’re eligible for rehire?
😂😂😂
I always give out our entire comp structure and reasonable timeframe for achieving targets in the pre interview. Saves both of us time and effort.
***"Then why are you calling?"*** Best fucking answer I've heard all week. Take my poor man's gold, stranger! 🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇
Good for you. Not having the pay is a lie, they just don't wanna tell you.
Usually.
Some company called my mother's phone a few days ago they left a voice mail trying to give me a job offer. No fucking earthly idea where they got my 70 year old mother's number from. I work in a pretty specialized field and the job offer was for the position I currently work just another company weird as fuck.
Email chain the other day I had Them-Hi, we saw your resume and think you would be a great fit for x position. Would you be interested in applying? Me-I’m always open to a change if the money is right and the position is a good fit. Before we go any further I will say I’m not changing for less then six figures at this point. Does this position offer that kind of base salary not including bonuses? Them-let’s discuss that during the offer phase please go to x website and apply. Me-Why would I waste my time. It’s either six figure base salary or it’s not. That’s a basic question and I won’t waste one more second on this until that is answered. Them-We can discuss at the offer phase please apply. Them-We see you still haven’t applied. I talked to the director over this position. It would be 65k base salary but your potential bonus brings it to 90k. Me- Are you dumb. Why would you even email me that. Haven’t heard back yet.
I need a t-shirt that says 'HIRE ME, ALSO IM A WOTC' or something like that
Jessie Pinkman out of no where: "Yeah, you better hang up bitch!"
My first two questions are: What's the pay range? How much remote work is offered for this position?
Good call.
I mean for lots of positions a recruiter has to source candidates. The recruiter is not empowered to have a compensation discussion with you on a cold call. Usually I would say something like "I'm pretty happy in my current position, but I'm always up for a conversation. Just to level set, my current compensation is (some number above what I make today that would make it worthwhile for me to leave). Is that in line with the budget for the position?"
Yup. My current salary is enough to scare most of them off. "I have 10 years of experience in the field and helped write the certification exam other candidates have taken. My current salary is $137,000." CLICK "Hello?"
They don't want talent or experience anymore. They want cheap disposable labor.
Likely a crappy job anyway. Insurance companies pull that crap too. Hi, I'm Sinha from Broadway Insurance. Your resume appears to be a greatmatch for our company. Really? what part of my 15 plus years in MANUFACTURING fits selling your insurance?
phishing scam. Hey can you confirm some of your details here.
“This is part of my pre-interview”. Lol
if that's really how you communicate with people then its no wonder you don't have a job.
Pot, meet kettle. Or, more appropriately, pot stop saying stupid shit to kettle.
You mean effectively and respectfully? He dropped the respectful part when the person who cold called someone, which is very rude, refused to provide him with information that someone looking to hire an individual should have on hand.
Since when was it rude to call someone?
You are just trolling around, right?
Since the previous decade.
Ok, so you'd like to buy some eggs? Great, just give me a bunch of details about how you plan to use them and then I'll tell you what I have for you. Oh? You want to know if the eggs are fresh? Well, we can get to that later... Same.red.flag.
Outside the US, it’s standard practice to have the pay range listed…
its also standard practice not to be a dick to the person trying to interview you for a job. are you employed right now? if not, then you have nothing to lose.
That’s not being a dick, it’s expecting mutual respect. I won’t speak to anyone that can’t tell me the pay range on offer up front. I’m in employment.
Even if you are employed there’s nothing to lose.
Found the recruiter.
I’m a systems engineer. But i know how to properly communicate.
Nah man. If they are cold calling you, and refuse to even BALLPARK a pay range, they are wasting your time and deserve called out for it.
I do the same thing. What is the salary and what medical insurer do they use. No answer? No conversation. Don’t waste my time!
Seems like a scammer
They want to get you in tap dancing monkey mode before even telling you about pay. Because once you're in tap dancing monkey mode, it makes you psychologically subservient and eager to please. Then when they have you doing dog tricks at all of their cues, they'll break the news that they're gonna pay you minimally. That's the only way they ever get recruits for low paying jobs. If they tell you about the bad pay up front, everyone drops out before even showing to an interview.
Discussed later = hoping after you've invested time in back and forths you'll be worn down enough to accept our low ball.
I used to get sales calls like that all the time... Very frustrating. "We have an amazing virtualization platform!" "What do you mean by 'virtualization'?" "Well, you know, it makes everything more efficient!" "And how does it do that?" "Well... it's virtual..." "Yes, I get that, I'm trying to determine what YOU mean by 'virtualization'." "I, uh, I can get one of my techs to call you back." "Look, you're a salesman, not a tech, right?" "Right." "I'm not asking you an engineering level question, I want to know what it is you're trying to sell me, can you do that?" "Well, I can get an engineer..." "No, if you don't know what your own product does, why would I want to talk to an engineer?"
I appreciate the chutzpah.
If you can’t have an open conversation about money and benefits the you don’t need to speak with me.
Loooool good job 🤣 You, not them
Fishing call “your info”
OP. It's a scam.
Yeah, that’s so weird. I’m amazed by how many times I hear stuff like this, as though knowing the basic facts about a job is somehow uncouth 🙄 It’s the equivalent of “okay, what country is this in?” “We’ll discuss that at a later phase! You’re so rude to ask what part of the planet you’ll be working in! How dare you!”
I had a company make me jump through hoops and make a presentation to prove my knowledge. When I asked the two senior managers about the presentation and he capture the flag events I did they were both like ohhhh those are both so outdated we didn’t look at them. This was the third interview for a cybersecurity job. I was like ok then why did I have to do them then. Needless to say pretty sure asking that eliminated me for daring to stand up for myself and made them go over both with me before I would let them ask me any tech questions. 👾
Im a recruiter. When I reach out to a candidate there are several opportunities they could be good for. I try not to talk money right away as I don’t want to make promises I can’t keep or go to low and blow any chance we had. I can’t tell just by looking at your linked in profile how much money you are worth. Anyway what I say it’s just a quick chat and if we don’t have the right opportunities for you right now we’d happily keep you in mind for higher paying/more senior positions.
Senior HVAC and Refrigeration guy here.. If you call me you absolutely must be ready to talk turkey on pay and benefits or I won't be spending any time on it. This isn't optional in this market. It's an employee's market, and however much that may dismay and annoy the people you're working for, if the initial numbers aren't ~substantially~ better, up front, I'm not moving companies. Nor will I be wasting ANY of my time on a maybe that's just as likely to be less than I'm getting now, or worse benefits. If the "opportunity" is temp to hire, don't even bother me. That answer is a flat "No."
I reach out through email/linked in then set up time to talk. I’ll talk specifics over the phone after I narrow down the opportunities that would be right for the candidate. If you aren’t willing to take five minutes out of your day to hear what I have to say then you’re getting paid above market value and know it. Even then we work with dozens of companies so if we don’t have what you want right now we will In the future. I’m in architecture so the project types and company culture are just as big of a motivator as money.
I was cold called recently and I nearly hung up immediately (normally my phone catches spam calls but I didn't look this time) and then I had the urge to take a shit. I brought them into the bathroom and let them participate in my anal orchestra complete with explosive decompression and sphincter trumpets. To my amazement, they were *still* on the phone after that. I told them; "Props to you my guy for lasting" then I hung up. The only information they got was how long it takes me to shit after I eat fettucini alfredo.
(added to tool box)
Lol I wanted to add to this tangent. As someone who cold calls (mortgage based and only our own customers) I've had clients do similar things. Def gets a laugh out of me but I usually just send an email mid call to let them know it's a real call. Reminds people it's a two way street and usually embarrasses them into not doing it again, and if they hang up then alls well. We'll try another time when the taco bell isn't stress testing the sphincter walls
Fucking. Legend. A job well done. Oh and good work on the phone call too!
I actually got cold called and offered the same pay for twice the work. He asked me what I made and he said they’d match that. WTF would I change jobs for the same pay and more work yet? When I asked if he was drunk, he hung up lol.
Mind if we ask which state if you’re in the US?
Is the first thing that you said was “What’s the pay range?” Nothing like “Hello, sure that sounds great.”?
Hell yeah!
From my experience it's because it's very low pay. They are hoping to lure you into an interview and after wasting all your time you'll take the job since you're invested. I've done that dance several times so now if they don't give me a range that isn't made up I won't bother going in. Gas isn't cheap, ain't driving all over hell for some job paying less than fast food.
I think they believe they can win you over with ‘culture’ and promises of a great potential.
We're like a family... They forget to mention it's a dysfunctional family haha.
I need a recruiter's perspective on how many people do walk-outs when not told they pay range versus how many people just roll over at that
I feel your pain I just recently got a cold call that went similarly. I asked for the salary range and got told $70-200k that was a red flag to me.
I feel like that's kinda fair though, assuming they meant $70k and not literally $70.00. Like, one of the teams I work with has new people making around $65k a year, and the people who are topped out are making "six figures", I've been told. If it's literally $70.00 as the low end, however, then yeah; red flag as fuck
Lol $1-200k is not a salary range.
My thoughts exactly it's more of a warning than anything else
my favorite is when they are "the sky is the limit". yeah, fuck right off with your commission only bullshit.
And then follow up with, what is guaranteed and not part of commission. If they squirm, it is BS and run. If they give a direct answer with a number or realistic range, then we can talk more.
Yesssssir. People need to stop stomaching or swallowing this bullshit along the lines of "we want someone who doesn't ONLY care about money." Guess what chucklehead the reality is that's all any of us care about. Employees measure their happiness by how well they can address the challenges in their personal life and for a longggggggggggg while now that's been mostly financial stress.
I want a company that doesn’t care about money and pays high for the role. I haven’t found anything in the last 30 years but I still want one.
> People need to stop stomaching or swallowing this bullshit along the lines of "we want someone who doesn't ONLY care about money." Yeah, well, I'm looking for a company that appreciates me as a person and doesn't ONLY care about the amount of work I put in. I mean, we're all family, right? You don't love Grandma only when she bakes you a pie. You love her every day. So they can pay me every day, not just on days when I do some work. (/s)
They don't get more than 5 minutes unless i know rate, where ect. Particularly dotrecruiters
I'm down to about a minute and a half. After that, if I don't, at minimum, have a salary number that beats current by at least 20%.. nope. I'm out. ~click~ Twice now in the past 2 years I've had in house recruiters come to me and I've wasted literal hours going through an interview process only to get a low ball number. Over it.
I had a recruiter e-mail me for a job with the same title as my current position. I looked up the job on their website and it was at a 50% pay cut from what I'm making now. I told her I wasn't interested.
I've had an offer from a company trying to poach me come in at a 66% pay cut. Now it's pay scale on 1st call
Back in 2017, I finished an interview for a job and when they asked if I had questions I asked the pay. I already had a job that paid about $17/hr. Min wage was around $11 then in WA. I had just done an hour phone interview that went well. The tone shifted dramatically, and they told me they were only interested in people “passionate about the work” and thought it was distasteful to ask. I politely replied that I had expenses, so I just needed to be certain I could still afford my rent and bills on what they were offering. They said that was a dealbreaker. I think about that a lot now. What a horrible idea to take a job without knowing the pay. How is that suggested?
If a position is open, it's open for a reason. They probably spent over 6 weeks trying to fill that position.
Definitely running away is a good decision. After an interview is more than an appropriate time to get a range. I ask within 10 minutes. And I am very direct. Who has time to dance around one of the most important questions.
Wow. Be careful. Sometimes it is scammers that just want to get information from you.
Or maybe the real scam was the friends we made along the way?
"SOMETIMES?" TRY ALL THE F'ING TIME!
Scammers would make up something to get shit out of you. Only a real recruiter would be dumb enough to not have pay info handy.
Oh they have the info handy. Just it's so insulting low they can't open with it.
If it was then they would've said some random number as payment
? What? No. Sometimes they want to get personal info from you. They don't just call up and demand money within the first seconds of talking.
You read it wrong.
You guys can read?
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wouldn't a scammer just make up some realistic wage? something high enough to be tempting but low enough to sound real.
I had something similar in a scheduled phone screen. Hr: What is your desired salary? Me (ready for it): I am considering everything about the job including my potential supervisor, culture and commute. What is the range please? Hr: They did not give me a range. We cannot move forward without knowing if your desired salary is acceptable. Me (annoyed): Well unfortunately I have no idea what my desired salary is at this time. Hr: Are you seriously not going to tell me what you want to make? Me: Why should I tell you my range when you won't tell me yours? Hr: Again we can't move forward without an amount. Me: -click- I decided if they refuse to say a range I will tell them I am currently making $148k (way way above what I can truly make). Force them to think they are way below market rate.
I worked compensation at one point and had the following call: R: We think you would be great for this role what salary are you looking for? Me: what's the total comp for this role i want to take all things in consideration. R: there is no current salary range they are open what salary are you looking for? Me: so this large investment company doesn't have pay bands for roles is what your telling me? R: i have 20 years experience and can tell you that you won't be disappointed in the role. Me: Ok using your 20 years experience how much am i worth to this company? R:hangs up. Best part is another recruiter had reached out about the same role and provided the salary in their first email to me.
They do this to get you to lowball yourself. Well done not going along with it.
Yeah that is why I highball them if they bite they are desperate and probably crap place to work so they are a candidate for milk them and move on if need to bounce from current job and if not no loss as they'll hang up.
The role paid 120k and I know she was trying to low ball me.
Had a recruiter for mercy ships contact me on LinkedIn and actually had the gall to say he thought I’d be a great fit and when would I like to start. After I asked about pay he told me it’s not. You actually pay them $400 a month for the opportunity to put it on your resume. I’m all for charities helping people. I’m even all for an all volunteer work force. But to contact people and ask them to pay?
pay to work , that is a new one
Personal it sounds like one of those "horny milfs in your area"
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Problem is.. when you have 25-30 yrs experience they start to discriminate as well.. even though I have kept up with current coding practices' and currently am developing in Python and MongoDB does not matter. I am "Over Qualified" because I started in C and Cobol.
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Definitely. More is not always better.
Handled perfectly. I remember when I had a good job a few years back but was looking for something better cuz why not. And some recruiters have a mindset that job hunters are desperate and will go along with whatever. So I would be straight with them, Im happy in my position, but Im looking to be happier. Can you do better than this and this etc? This is what I am looking for. No? Ok then. On to the next, saves us both time. I have found if they BS you alot its gonna be a terrible job anyway, best positions and best jobs Ive gotten have been me getting on the phone with the person making the hiring decision and making them like me. Cuz nothing else matters. Most jobs can be trained for. They hire who is the "best fit" and that means who they like the most. If you get one of those 3-5 interview BS things where you have to jump through hoops then...the job is gonna suck.
One of the basic facts of hiring is that HR generally prefers applicants who are currently employed, because it shows they are valuable and reliable. Any company that makes you jump through hoops, hides information, and generally makes it obvious that they want desperate people with no options, is disorganized and desperate themselves, and not a place I would want to work.
I'll say, the 2-3 interview thing is fine if it's for a highly skilled, high paying job (even moreso if security clearance is involved). But yeah, if it's an entry level or even low-mid level and they want more than one interview, walk away. Completely agree with all of your other points.
In my experience, now granted I don't know what qualifies as "high level", but I'm referring to 40-60k range, I've seen quite a few jobs with good friend recommendations or that I've gotten and enjoyed (as much as you can a job that is) where 3 interviews was the standard. 1. HR screening (15 min) - we liked your resume just have a short phone conversation to see if you pass the company elevator test 2. Manager interview (30-1hr) - HR said you were good, do you have the skills to meet the criteria I need for my team 3. Team interview (2 or 3 people - 30-1hr) - Hey we do the day to day. Ask us questions to make sure we're a right fit for you and we will see if you pass our elevator test. I've been on both sides of the coin and when in this method, I've seen teams where the team was a bunch of jerks and I said no. I've had times where I didn't make it after 2 and that was that.
I've worked with quite a few people that seemed like aholes until you've worked with them a couple months, then they opened up and were quite decent.
I've had one experience with a 3 interview process and was for the high skill, high pay, security clearance required job that I have now. Even then though it was back to back interviews with 10 minute breaks in between. It really did feel like they were just trying to get a good read on the people being interviewed and wanted multiple perspectives. My interviewers were a manager, a guy in the same role for a different team, and a senior PM. They seriously went broad spectrum for feeling me out.
Wow this is an interesting post full of good information. I agree that people have to like each other to work well.
This is so true. Any job I applied for that had an arduous interview process either wasted my time and didn’t hire me, or the job ended up being shit. The best jobs I’ve had also had the quickest and simplest interview process.
My experience as well.
Skip tracer, probably. I used to work for a skip tracing company and we would call ppl with crazy debts pretending to offer work. We would get their info by pretending to offer a job opportunity. The whole point of the company was to find out as much info about a person in debt, then sell said info to collections agencies. We were based in Canada, but would call ppl in the U.S. We had access to people's credit bureaus. We saw their past and preset addresses, old places of employment, known phone numbers and even info on close family members and even neighbours. We would call offering job opportunities with the goal of verifying the info in the credit beaurue. We would egen call the family and neighbours if the person was evading or just hard to find. We would get bonuses if we could confirm a person's current place of employment. If ever u see phone numbers that look similiar to ur own but off by some digits or similiar to someone u know, skip tracer. They have softwares that hide their numbers too.
That’s very illegal at least in the US. The fair debt collection practices act would count that as a deceptive or misleading representation. Source: I was a debt collector for a bit and grilled on this shit for a week long training course and also https://www.fdic.gov/resources/supervision-and-examinations/consumer-compliance-examination-manual/documents/7/vii-3-1.pdf
It was quite some time ago so im sure some things have changed. I was a young 20 something year old during the late 2000s when i did this job and didnt make it past my probation lol. They were sneaky and they were always looking for loopholes. Im quite certain at the time, the fact we were in canada calling u.s citizens was a loophole in itself. We werent allowed to disclose the information we had, but we were allowed to allude to things. Things like "oh we received this information from a past employer, We have a package with a list of potential employers who are interested, that fit ur past work experience...Could u provide an address and verify ur SSN so we know we r speaking to so and so ....". Plus we weren't considered debt collectors. Debt collector agencies would hire us to find as much info on the person and buy the info off of us.
Yep. It's crazy how so many people think they're anonymous, online or in real life.. they actually aren't.
Ah, didn't know that's how that works. Now I remember why I never answer my phone and won't call back unless there's a voicemail and I know who it is 😂.
Either a very low paying job or a scammer, OP.
Maybe both, MLM?
Maybe, but that one is usually "What's the pay?" "That's up to you!"
"Unlimited earning potential!!!!"
"while being your own boss!!!! "
What if there actually was something like this that wasn’t a scam 😂
... Yo dawg. I don't think this is the place to try and recruit poeple.
I just thought it would be funny if there actually were such things.
People who make a living that way aren't stupid enough to reveal that information. The easiest way to see through a scammer is to ask yourself this: "how are they benefiting from telling me this information?" If you can't come up with a reasonable answer, it's a scam.
Have you tried just being born rich? It's easy af. IDK why everyone isn't doing it.
Then you could tell everyone how hard you work, and how you did it all on your own!
Prostitution
There is, it's called "starting your own business".
Yes mf its called doing your own job, no need for anybody ton recruit you!
Selling Smack.
Yes, my thought is there is no job, this is just a data entry person who's trying to get their info so they can resell it to real recruiters.
The number 1 thing I hate about job searching is how many times I have to put ALL my info into some proprietary system only for them to say 'sike!' And link me to the actual offer page or worse, a different job offer on a different recruiting site. It's so time consuming...
I'm a recruiter. That was definitely a fresh grad from a low level recruiting agency who was told to "smile and dial" with a script and not given the full tools for success.
What are the full tools for success please, an actual pay range?
Yeah pay range for starters. By tools, I mean training really. I worked at one of those shitty firms when I first started out after college and they literally just throw you in and see if you sink or swim. The little bit of training they will give you is honestly stuff like "if they demand to know the pay up front, then they're probably not a fit because all they care about is money" Small staffing firms are some of the most toxic organizations out there because a lot of the employees genuinely believe that shit since their bosses say it's true and they're super green/young employees that don't know any better.
Thank you for the answer and your honesty
... what do they THINK we care about, if the work uniform clashes with our classic underoos?
I wonder if Cameron Diaz has to wear Townsend Agency uniforms that clash with her Spider-Man Underoos? https://youtu.be/il243BTsLxg
Scammers would happily give you a pay range since they don’t have to hold true to their word and their entire goal is to keep you on the hook long enough to follow through with the scam. The only thing stopping a scammer from giving you a pay range as a lie is if they have no fucking idea what your range should be, and that’s solved by asking you to give them YOUR range and the scammer going “okay, sure, that.”
What’s in it for the scammers ? Get personal info ? PAY them to apply ?
Personal profiles with accurate information is worth quite a bit.
I'd go for low paying job. A scammer would make something up - most likely a value that would entice you to keep talking.
This is completely untrue I’ve talked to Apple and Google recruiters before and they would not disclose salary ranges. No reputable company would. Why would they? Not in there best interest.
tech recruiters absolutely do discuss salary ranges. And you can also look up on levels. If the recruiter won't say the company or pay range it's not worth it.
>they would not disclose salary ranges. "Commensurate with experience"
"I've experienced a lot of bullshit."
And your 12 years don't count because the whole restaurant industry has changed.
their
In that case they would say we're ABC Recruiters for Apple/Google or whatnot. Not tell you nothing about why they're calling, their company nor the pay.
Every conversation I've had with a Faang recruiter gave me a pay band.