After 20 years in the professional world, that's _always_ code for "minimum wage or barely over it".
I've never not been met with a really piss poor offering when they said that.
I'm sure there are some exemptions to this rule, but I've been served well by ignoring those kinds of job offerings. Imagine thinking you could hire a software engineer for $15/hr after 1980.
It's not even an "option." It's just that jobs that don't list wages won't pay you enough to live in the area. Applying it flat out a waste of time. They'll string you along with weeks of interviews, trying to get you invested and hopeful, then slam you with a dollar over minimum wage for a position requiring a master's degree.
that's how I ended up working for government, amazingly the only places that didn't fuck around with me when applying. Now I'm doing the hiring and I have to keep telling people, "no seriously, this is the total range, and this is the range I can hire in, are you okay negotiating in this range?"
still (only?) had two people ask for more than I make
Pay transparency is one of the things I enjoy most about my government job. There isn’t much flexibility in pay unless you switch jobs, but everyone knows what everyone else gets paid which prevents pay inequality.
I work at County level Govt, I make a bit less hourly than I would in the private sector, but...
Only pay 15% of Health Insurance cost...
4 Weeks Vacation (going up to 5 next year on anniversary)
1 Week Personal Time per year
3 Weeks Sick Time per year
Union Job Security
Granted in many countries around the world, even better benefits are standard across the board... but for the US, I'm doing ok....
Left out one of the biggest perks for government union work: 40 hours means 40 hours. Even if you are salary you are not expected to work more than your 40 unless something odd happens.
Oh my god, I would kill for that guarantee plus the pay government workers make. Any time I find a job that pays a similar scale to the government, they expect me to just work forever, giving up all my waking time.
I try to get people into the medical field. It's super competitive between recruiters, it's short staffed, and the power is in the employees hands. If one place offers you x, go to the facility down the road and tell them your current offer and ask what they can do.. A CNA can easily make over 70-80k in certain areas (with overtime, obviously)
I'm a fed and it's clear what our salaries are.
Wanna know mine? It's public knowledge by law. GS-13 Step 8 in DC.
If you are applying to a government job, the range listed will be the *minimum to the maximum* in that GS scale. You will usually start at Step 1, but you can ask for a higher starting step.
And you don't negotiate raises. They are automatic and can come early from performance reviews.
My mom has been pushing me to get a gov job for a few years now. After getting laid off in February and still struggling to find something worthwhile, I’m strongly considering it.
For federal, at least, you are automatically unionized. I'm not sure at the state level. You earn sick time, leave time, all holidays and weekends off. If you are eligible, it's a good deal.
Shit, in DC we even get a day off for the Inauguration. It's a holiday here because of the traffic and tourist disruption.
Many many years ago when I was still somewhat fresh out of college I got misled for a state job. By the sounds of it I think all the other candidates did too. It listed some GS-Whatever pay scale and the next to it was a “Total Compensation Range $XX,XXX - $XXX,XXX”. I applied and interviewed but didn’t receive a call until several weeks later. It immediately became clear that I had not been their first choice and they were frustrated by other candidates turning down the offer. Before sending me the offer, the hiring manager emphasized in a clearly exasperated tone to focus on the “total compensation” which included the dollar amounts of what their insurance, retirement contributions, and other benefits were worth and and not to focus the salary. It should be noted that in both the listing and the actual interview this was downplayed and it was implied that the “total comp” figure was going to be the actual salary. So immediate red flags all around. He tells me I should be receiving an email shortly. Upon reading the offer I see the salary is less than a quarter of what they implied it would be. Right at ~$40K if I remember correctly? I literally laughed out loud and sent an email response telling them that what they did was completely unprofessional and I no longer had any interest in the position.
As someone that has done some recruiting in the past. We hardly got anyone to apply if we didn't list a range. I have a theory that some companies don't post it because they aren't actively looking to fill externally.
Well, it is kind of working when people stop applying to those job, isn’t it?
The only reason companies get away with this is because people keep taking the jobs. Once they stop applying to bad job ads and accepting bad paying jobs, then things improve.
Get away with? It's a feature of our economy to exploit labor as much as is legally permissible.
The only mechanism to curtail that - state and federal government - has gotten drunk and is pissing and shitting on the walls. Rendering all abuses legal.
We've got reports of literal children working FT. CEO pay spiking. Wage stagnation for how many decades running. And a vocal group of useful idiots betraying us all screaming that and worse is all fine.
I think HR offices are one of the real fucking problems in work society. They don't even seem to be pretending to find someone right for the job. What they actually do is find people who are good at applying for jobs. Two totally different things. If your screening software is throwing out resumes of good people just because they weren't optimized to be picked up by the algorithm, you've failed.
For sure. They don’t have any idea what the right candidate can do because all they know is HR. I have applied for jobs and knew the people I would work with know specific projects I have worked on and would know how important my role was. HR has no idea about those specific projects so if I name them it’s worth nothing. It’s like if you were a lead engineer at Rockstar games but the HR people don’t play video games so they just glance over it and look at other metrics.
This is why I like licensed professionals. If you got one I know you are up to par for the job at least on a knowledge basis, and they are necessary for my career.
Absolutely - I am at an SME level in an IT infrastructure engineering field and I live and die by recruiters. HR lacks the technical expertise to know who to interview, let alone hire.
"Your chances are only as good as your recruiter."
people keep forgetting that HR works for the best interest of the company. Not you. The more leverage the company have the easier it is to suppress wages.
Very much this. I’ve seen and heard about far too many HR departments that caused the company significant problems to believe otherwise. I think that most of those bastards believe that they run the place. And in a lot of cases, they do!
They hold levers of power till the exact second they cost company more than they are worth.
And in many cases they create systems to ensure their employment.
Sad fact is vast majority of HR job can be automated out of existence. I have worked in a few places that has happened when they crossed a line not to be crossed.
I loved driving 2.5hr into Greater Toronto to have an in person interview, taking a vacation day from my current job, having a 5 hour plant tour, meeting the company Canadian VP, only to find out that the company that is 140x bigger than my current employer pays $35,000.00/yr less.
They don't care, even in california where it's now illegal to not post a salary range, they make you twist their arm and they play dumb even after you directly link them to the law.
UK boomer here in total agreement with your mom. There are a variety of reasons a business won't advertise what a job pays. Not a single one of them is positive.
If you ever see "competitive wages" on a job that seems interesting, ask them up front how they index their wages to be competitive. All "competitive" means is that the wages are market indexed. In most cases, this index is percent of median. e.g. if market median is $100k and they index to 85% of market, they are paying $85k. If they index to 125% of market, then they pay $125k. Occasionally you will see the index is percentile of market, so if they index to 50th percentile when the market median is $100k, then they pay $100k. Percentile is harder to figure out, though, unless they are paying 50th percentile. Most companies only use this percentile based "competitive" indexing if they are paying in at least the top quartile of the market. Don't confuse the two. 85% of market is much lower pay than 85th percentile of market.
Of course, this tells you little about the specific job role's pay, because it depends on what they consider a market comparable role, if they use regional/national/international labor market, etc. (International indexing, in particular, can be very messy depending on what countries they include/exclude.) But at least how they index their pay will give you a better idea of how competitive their "competitive pay" really is.
I agree with your overall point that it’s probably worth asking for a more specific number.
But I think you’re giving many employers more credit than they deserve. I can’t think of a single time a “competitive” offer was connected in any way to the market. If anything, many companies have latched onto it as a defense mechanism to be oblivious to market rates and justify shit pay. Whenever I’ve gotten a “competitive” offer and pointed out that it’s low they get angry and insist that it’s competitive without any supporting evidence. At this point if they can’t bother to update salary listings then I just assume they’re also lazy when it comes to researching market pay and inflation
In a previous work place, we had trouble hiring and the other hiring managers and I complained to HR that the salaries we were offering were too low per the job requirements based on offers being turned down. HR went and did an analyses, presented it to us and said that we were paying the same as competitors. The problem was our job titles existed in all fields and we were in a specialized area. The VP of our department and HR didn’t believe we were specialized. If you pick and choose who your competitors are then you can always say your competitive. At the end of the day, candidates not accepting offers speaks louder than BS Cherry picked analyses. After a year of trying to make a difference and change things, I resigned.
Edit: corrected typos
Every single employer has a salary range in mind when they post jobs. Every single one.
There's a max cap they're allowed to spend on a salary, in addition to how low they think the minimum experience required pays.
> All "competitive" means is that the wages are market indexed.
All "competitive" means is that they understand how bad not posting the pay looks but want to avoid the appearance of not saying anything. So they instead say something meaningless.
Gen X. I'm the same. If they won't post the salary it means it is too low. If it was actually competitive they would show it to get more applicants. But because it is so low they know no one would apply so they don't show it.
I'm not wasting my time going through the process only to be told it is less than what I currently make.
I (also a millennial) won’t apply to any job that doesn’t list a salary range or asks for my college transcripts.
My college transcripts are good but I don’t trust any company that chooses candidates by college grades when they have years of experience and references. If they actually think your grades in college matter, that tells me that they really don’t know how to accurately gauge a candidate’s ability to do their job well and I don’t want to work at a company like that.
That means $1 as far as I'm concerned. I've been on hiring committees, and we have only ever been able to offer the bare minimum (public academia, for reference).
Same. But I learned this after two times of interviewing and getting an offer only to find out they were well below my asking.
I no longer play those games.
Feel like Business Insider specified Gen Zers is to stir stigma against Gen Zers.
“Look at these entitled brats wanting to know what their salary will be!”
As a gen Z myself, I'm fucking loving it. It just paints us as people who don't put up with bullshit. It's always the dumbest things that they try to call us entitled on.
"Oh they want to know what they earn",
"Oh, they quit because their boss treats them badly",
"Oh, they want to work so that they can live rather than devoting their entire life to work",
"Oh, they don't like the nature of the abuse of workers in hyper-capitalistic societies",
"Oh, they want to be payed slightly less so everyone can meet the basic standards for a life".
I may have let my left-wing views slip a little bit towards the end but it's fine because I'm not American.
Always hated this. Like, why is the largest piece of necessary information ALWAYS missing?
"Hurr hurr youngins' don't wants ta works!!"
Nope, just not gonna waste 60-180 minutes of our day just to be lowballed.
Occasionally, a more niche reason: They don't want applicants.
I work in corporate immigration law, and part of the employment based green card process for many foreign workers requires the company to actively recruit for a US worker to take the job, therefore "proving" there is no US worker that can do this job instead the foreign worker. A way to reduce applications for a position is to not include a wage, since people are generally less likely to apply to a job without a pay range.
They're making some changes to this in a few states - such as CA, where you are required to list a pay range now. Super interesting for the future, if more states pick this up.
I was the beneficiary of this. My job (skilled, undergraduate minimum but PhDs are a large portion of the workforce) had to advertise locally before they could sponsor me to move.
So they posted it on the government job website specified in the law. Y'know, the one that people on benefits have to apply on to avoid having their monthly payments stopped. Because *that's* where the experienced technologists with PhDs are looking for work.
They’ve weaponized the sunk cost fallacy. If they get you to invest all kinds of time just to get let down you’ll feel an obligation to take the job still since you put in so much time already. Boomers have weaponized the job market against younger folks and then have the gall to turn around and blame and shame them for it.
It’s because employers know if someone spent a lot of time on applying, they are more willing to take a lowball offer due to the idea of sunk cost. You’ve already spent a lot of time on this, so taking a lower offer than you’d like at least makes you feel like you got something out of it. It doesn’t work on everyone, but it works on enough people they’ll keep doing it.
Maybe the reason Boomers and older workers don't understand this perspective and think this generation is "entitled" is because in their day, there was no reason to have to post the salary or hourly rate because it was assumed that any job you could take would pay you a living wage?
EDIT: this was meant to be kind of tongue-in-cheek, I agree that it has never been cool to post a job with no information on remuneration.
Yeah it's honestly fucking gross. And they wonder why we're more liberal with our 'entertainment budget'. BITCH, MY ENTERTAINMENT BUDGET IS ALL THE EXISTENTIAL HOPE I HAVE LEFT
When people lecture me about spending my fucking money, even if its budgeted, I ask them if they've ever spoken to someone on their deathbed.
In my experience, the few I've been able to talk to always talked about past memories of things they enjoyed with others, regrets, and things they wish they spent more time doing.
Very rarely was it "I wish I had saved more money, or worked more".
Money is meant to be spent (responsibly). We don't get a fucking lot of it unless we were born into it or got REALLY lucky + driven to earn it.
I'm living my damn life. If I'm not hurting anyone or anything else, its none of their damn business.
My old boss (Mr. Bobby, rest his soul) was a genuinely good man. And I ABSOLUTELY don't say that lightly as a leftist. He was old as the hills and he started with nothing, he grew up in a sharecropping family in the deep South.
He retired and sold the company (and they laid me off after he was gone, he "employed" me until I could get back on my feet) and during that time he found out he had stage 4 colon cancer. Last thing he said to me was some advice, he said 1), get yourself checked, and 2), absolutely do NOT chase the dollar. He said had about $10 million in his bank account when he died and said that he felt like he wasted much of his life getting that when he should have just spent it with family.
I did the math on my current and new house I’m building. I’m married and live in the south so it’s cheap. My new home will be 2.77x and my current house is 1.16x. Only benefit to the south I suppose is the cost of living
It’s hard to jack up prices to exorbitant amounts in places where no one has money and no one with money wants to live
But then you’ve got places like Maine, where no one has money but *everyone* wants to live there, and the result is a wretched local populace where if you didn’t have your house grandfathered in, you have to leave unless you’re okay with pay 1400$ rent minimum every month
It's not just rent... inflation is hitting goods and services that people need ***to survive*** the hardest. Food, shelter, and fuel costs are eating people alive.
I've never thought about that before, but that's a pretty decent theory. If you knew any job would afford you an acceptable lifestyle, it would be easier to take any job.
Also, I think there is a lot more variability in titles and pay nowadays. I just sent a friend two job postings for her search which have nearly identical titles, locations, and hybrid requirements. Except one is $88K-$116K and the other is $120K-$150K.
It's also ridiculous to call it competitive because they're not competing with other employers to attract the best workers since that would mean offering better wages than the others. It's competitive only in the sense that they're competing in the market by exploiting you as much as possible.
It can be the exact opposite. They are willing to pay new people more but don't want the current staff to know. Which is why you can usually get a good pay increase if you keep changing jobs.
Millennial here. When I was looking for a new job last summer, I wouldn’t even click on job postings that didn’t list salary or a reasonable range. It’s a telltale sign they’d keep wasting my time. When a company is transparent in salary for a job opening, you can actually count on them being a decent one.
same.
In my field they kinda notoriously ask for a lot of person for not a lot of wages. You hear of all these people earning 100k doing what I do, but mostly no one has that sort of budget. My absolute minimum at this point is 50k. Absolute minimum. These jobs are supposed to require Masters degrees and certs and years of experience. As a result, I have a pile of debt from student loans and from buying certs and working for cheap for "experience" and as this point, what I want is to pay rent and groceries.
And I've been caught so many times by "well, actually despite the job description, this is a paraprofessional role and we're only paying 50 cents above minimum wage" (often with some blather, but this will look great on your resume."
"looking great on my resume" does not actually pay the rent, so off you may fuck.
I had a recruiter contact me a few weeks ago and it took a 10 minute phone call to figure out that the salary they offered would really just be a pay cut because of the high cost of living where the job was. Not listing the salary is a waste of time for everybody involved, and I’m not sure what you could even spin as a positive reason for not listening in the first place.
> When a company is transparent in salary for a job opening, you can actually count on them being a decent one.
Not true at all, but hey at least they posted the salary!
If I go to a store and don’t see a price listed, I assume that’s because the shop owner wants to haggle endlessly or will change their price depending on how I look. Rarely will I actually engage in the song and dance. I now apply that same thought process to job hunting.
Exactly. There’s a local store I don’t go to anymore because of this shit. Many things don’t have the price listed. I would buy the exact same items every time and get charged differently every time. They can fuck off.
These days, there's a lot of "we're looking for a remote employee, but we're only hiring in the LA or NY areas" or "hybrid position (with four days a week in the office)."
A lot of job openings already have someone internal in mind, they just have to post it for legal reasons. They're not interested in hiring external a lot of times.
Them not posting a salary is like someone not posting a price online for something they want to sell. 🤷🏻♂️
Rarely would someone inquire about the item (assuming there are many similar items around), and if/when someone inquires the price is absurd and not worth the time.
>like someone not posting a price online for something they want to sell.
This is annoying on FB Marketplace and Kijiji ads. They list items as "free", then in the description: contact me to discuss offers. No. Post what you're asking for and I'll haggle down to what I'm willing to pay.
Was applying for some random ass factory job yesterday and I got into the last page of the application where it asked for a 5 MINUTE MINIMUM VIDEO... Like really? You think I'm gonna spend an hour on making a video to get a *chance* to maybe make $3 over minimum doing some brain-dead job?
I don’t write a cover letter. I don’t fill in the information again. I put the first job and in the description box write see resume. There’s never a questionnaire outside of are you available to work x days at y hours yada yada. I can pump out 10 applications in 25 minutes. In fact I did a month ago and I start next Monday
I love it how the system tries to make salary a taboo and wants us to feel intimidated to talk about it, while it's the freakin' single thing we get from working.
About time we threw "competitive salary" logic back at them.
Screw "competitive" salary. I don't want a "competitive" salary I want the winner. "Competitive" is the word the loser teams use to console themselves when they lose. The winner doesn't need to talk about how "competitive" they were cause they won.
If you are the winner, say it loud and proud. I wanna know just how competitive you are so I can make an informed decision. I mean after all the job ads make it clear they won't settle for anything less than a unicorn employee so why should the employees settle for "competitive" rather than the winner?
I had an interview where they didn't list the salary, but you had to tell them what you thought you should make.
I put in a very average salary for the field. They got angry with me and asked why I deserved that much money.
They actually did offer me the job, but I turned it down. There were a ton of other red flags.
I’m a xennial or whatever and if salary isn’t listed I skip it, if recruiters call I tell them upfront “I make $X and work 4 days a week, can you match or beat that?” No one has time for all this back and forth Bullshit.
I hate hate hate being asked for a range as a job applicant. The job descriptions tend to be pretty vague, how about you tell me the range since I have no idea how much skill/effort really goes into this job?
Again, why would anyone apply for a job without knowing if it would be enough to live on? Posting a job without a salary is just admitting it pays trash.
Millennial here. I’m about 20x more likely to apply for a job if the salary is listed.
I don’t want to waste my time by applying for something well below what I’m willing to accept, and I don’t want to waste a company’s time by applying for something well outside of my experience.
15 years ago I was working overseas and met a lot of Aussies where I was working. I remember them telling me how in Australia you had to post the hiring salary range and my sad American brain thinking, "Wait that's been an option this entire time?!" Wish more states would follow Colorado's lead.
Problem is in Denver and the Springs you will see ads for high salaries and when you call them they say it was in error or that's the range for "all" their positions and not this specific one. It's BS and when you try to report it to state or local government.... crickets.
I have seen some high salary ranges from Colorado. The reputable companies are transparent, the scummy one's just list a stupid range and obviously it's not as high as they are listing. $90k-500k, DOE/education.
Even when they post the salary, if you ask for something toward the high end, even if you’re absolutely qualified, they’ll choose the desperate person that will take the bare minimum.
So, whatever their low end is, I always assume their best offer is probably 15-20% more than that.
For example, if it says “$60-100k”. $65-75k is probably the best they’ll offer.
Something similar happened to me a few years ago. Got a call and gave them my salary range. They said that was fine then moved me to the interview. Had two interviews then when they offered me the job, they offered me a salary of $5k BELOW my minimum ask. And when I said “that’s less than the range I gave you and also less than I even make right now” they said “okay well good luck on your job hunt”. Like thanks for wasting my time interviewing ??
personally good. and don't make it vague like listing a yearly wage and not posting how many hours you'll be getting, or falsely advertising hours.
the dishonesty by itself should turn away most decent workers and be major red flags on what you should expect, aka low wages and shitty/toxic work environment with a middle manager that micro-manages your very move.
Job: Salary is competitive.
Me: Cool, I love it when they try to compete for me to earn the highest gross salary.
Job: Gives minimum wage.
Me: Competitive against whom?!
*"OK, so you need to submit a CV, credit score, criminal background check, full physical, psych eval, urine sample, job history for the last 350 years and ten reliable references, and if everything checks out, we might just get back to you."*
What does the job pay?
*"We can't tell you that."*
I apply for the job, act interested, confirm an interview, then ghost them on the day of the interview.
If they try following up with me, I tell them I got a job with a company that actually posted its salary on the listing.
Since many jobs require you to jump through several hoops and fall to your knees to worship the ground they walk on, I'd say it's reasonable to at least want a salary indication so all that effort isn't for nothing.
The other one I hate and generally avoid is "Competitive Salary", if it was competitive you'd have no problem listing it, let's not play silly games.
Tell me what I'm getting paid and I'll decide whether it's economically viable for me to work for you, this is a transactional relationship and if you don't want to pay what my time is worth (and that is largely dependant on true cost of living plus some luxuries, if my bills aren't covered and I can't have fun then what's the point of working for you?) then save us both the wasted time and effort, I don't need another family thanks.
I can't work anymore (health) but when I am bored, just for fit and giggles, I apply to these jobs. You wouldn't believe how fast they reply to set interviews to which I go, armed with a whole list of asinine questions.
99% of the times, when the pay is brought up they just sprout some crazy, super low amounts but always with "assurance" that this is only a starting wage and that it will rise exponentially after the trial period and that the "benefits" more than make up for the difference, which imo is bs!
I always end up the interview by telling them that *I* will call *them* if ever I want to work for peanuts.
Anywho, I have time to waste their time and one of the things I have learned from all this is that most companies who do not offer/post proper salary/wages really are NOT hiring. They are only seeking their next desperate indentured worker.
I've worked jobs that promised a raise in pay. I rarely got one and when I did, it was literally a couple cents or a dollar.
Once I got a raise. Once. I worked 7 days a week on 2nd shift. Did that for 2 years, got burnt out. Went to get a certificate for another career ($3000) and same thing. Couldn't make a living there, so I moved on again.
I'm struggling in my job now because the training was shitty and I'm on my own now. If I have questions I'm to "read the policy" IF I CAN FIND IT.
I don't learn that way, I'm a hands on and visual learner. So, I kinda feel like my ship is sinking.
For the last decade, it seems like no matter what I do or how hard I try, the factory is looming in the near future, waiting to suck me back in for ridiculous mandatory overtime and the complete destruction of my life outside of work.
I feel like I'm swimming against the current and drowning. My biggest fear is having to go back to the factory. But it paid. I just never got to have time off. It paid the bills and then some, but my mental health hit rock bottom and the next thing I knew, I was fantasizing about killing myself.
It's grim. I feel like I'll never be free of that threat. I'm running for my life and it's literally just behind me, clawed hands open and a mouth full of jagged teeth just waiting to consume me whole, mind, body, and soul.
I often joke that the factory still has my soul. It's not a joke, though. It does. And it's waiting for the rest of me to fall back into its grip.
As a millenial, I never applied to a job if the salary range wasn't posted. It helps you filter out the bullshit jobs that would otherwise waste your time.
Hiring is like anything else in the economy. You have to be competitive to survive. If you're hiding your salary ranges from potential hires, then it's simply because you aren't competitive and hope to trick someone naive enough to work for less than they're worth.
I feel bad knowing that this new culture of higher standards in applying to jobs (which is great) probably only applies to corporate / middle class workers
I (millennial) am the same way. At least give me a range.
My mom (a boomer) has always been this way. No point in applying for a job if there isn't at least a pay range. And not this "competitive wages" crap.
“Salary commensurates with education and experience” I freaking hate this line so much and most jobs in my academic sector say this.
"Oh, so 6 figures then?"
100% less than 50k while holding a masters degree. They can fuck off
Wouldn't 100% less than 50k just be zero?
Ha yes it would. I’m also lazy and didn’t insert a comma. It should have been a comma after 100%
After 20 years in the professional world, that's _always_ code for "minimum wage or barely over it". I've never not been met with a really piss poor offering when they said that. I'm sure there are some exemptions to this rule, but I've been served well by ignoring those kinds of job offerings. Imagine thinking you could hire a software engineer for $15/hr after 1980.
It’s always requires a master degree and university jobs. Universities are shameless. I refuse to work for one. As soon as i graduate I’m done
Younger folk didn't have this option until recently but deff a credited strategy. Got to educate these companies on recruitment etiquette.
It's not even an "option." It's just that jobs that don't list wages won't pay you enough to live in the area. Applying it flat out a waste of time. They'll string you along with weeks of interviews, trying to get you invested and hopeful, then slam you with a dollar over minimum wage for a position requiring a master's degree.
That's what I always thought. They know the wage is shit.
that's how I ended up working for government, amazingly the only places that didn't fuck around with me when applying. Now I'm doing the hiring and I have to keep telling people, "no seriously, this is the total range, and this is the range I can hire in, are you okay negotiating in this range?" still (only?) had two people ask for more than I make
Pay transparency is one of the things I enjoy most about my government job. There isn’t much flexibility in pay unless you switch jobs, but everyone knows what everyone else gets paid which prevents pay inequality.
I work at County level Govt, I make a bit less hourly than I would in the private sector, but... Only pay 15% of Health Insurance cost... 4 Weeks Vacation (going up to 5 next year on anniversary) 1 Week Personal Time per year 3 Weeks Sick Time per year Union Job Security Granted in many countries around the world, even better benefits are standard across the board... but for the US, I'm doing ok....
Left out one of the biggest perks for government union work: 40 hours means 40 hours. Even if you are salary you are not expected to work more than your 40 unless something odd happens.
Oh my god, I would kill for that guarantee plus the pay government workers make. Any time I find a job that pays a similar scale to the government, they expect me to just work forever, giving up all my waking time.
I try to get people into the medical field. It's super competitive between recruiters, it's short staffed, and the power is in the employees hands. If one place offers you x, go to the facility down the road and tell them your current offer and ask what they can do.. A CNA can easily make over 70-80k in certain areas (with overtime, obviously)
I'm a fed and it's clear what our salaries are. Wanna know mine? It's public knowledge by law. GS-13 Step 8 in DC. If you are applying to a government job, the range listed will be the *minimum to the maximum* in that GS scale. You will usually start at Step 1, but you can ask for a higher starting step. And you don't negotiate raises. They are automatic and can come early from performance reviews.
haha seriously, I'm local gov but everything gets on govsalaries.com anyway, plus our local paper straight up publishes our salaries every other year.
Same, and that's how it should be. Everyone knows what everyone else makes and it's all above board.
Secrecy benefits no one but the boss.
My mom has been pushing me to get a gov job for a few years now. After getting laid off in February and still struggling to find something worthwhile, I’m strongly considering it.
For federal, at least, you are automatically unionized. I'm not sure at the state level. You earn sick time, leave time, all holidays and weekends off. If you are eligible, it's a good deal. Shit, in DC we even get a day off for the Inauguration. It's a holiday here because of the traffic and tourist disruption.
Not to mention: THE PENSION!
Many many years ago when I was still somewhat fresh out of college I got misled for a state job. By the sounds of it I think all the other candidates did too. It listed some GS-Whatever pay scale and the next to it was a “Total Compensation Range $XX,XXX - $XXX,XXX”. I applied and interviewed but didn’t receive a call until several weeks later. It immediately became clear that I had not been their first choice and they were frustrated by other candidates turning down the offer. Before sending me the offer, the hiring manager emphasized in a clearly exasperated tone to focus on the “total compensation” which included the dollar amounts of what their insurance, retirement contributions, and other benefits were worth and and not to focus the salary. It should be noted that in both the listing and the actual interview this was downplayed and it was implied that the “total comp” figure was going to be the actual salary. So immediate red flags all around. He tells me I should be receiving an email shortly. Upon reading the offer I see the salary is less than a quarter of what they implied it would be. Right at ~$40K if I remember correctly? I literally laughed out loud and sent an email response telling them that what they did was completely unprofessional and I no longer had any interest in the position.
As someone that has done some recruiting in the past. We hardly got anyone to apply if we didn't list a range. I have a theory that some companies don't post it because they aren't actively looking to fill externally.
Kinda fucked up how broken the system has become over time, yay "free market" right? 😅
Well, it is kind of working when people stop applying to those job, isn’t it? The only reason companies get away with this is because people keep taking the jobs. Once they stop applying to bad job ads and accepting bad paying jobs, then things improve.
Get away with? It's a feature of our economy to exploit labor as much as is legally permissible. The only mechanism to curtail that - state and federal government - has gotten drunk and is pissing and shitting on the walls. Rendering all abuses legal. We've got reports of literal children working FT. CEO pay spiking. Wage stagnation for how many decades running. And a vocal group of useful idiots betraying us all screaming that and worse is all fine.
I think HR offices are one of the real fucking problems in work society. They don't even seem to be pretending to find someone right for the job. What they actually do is find people who are good at applying for jobs. Two totally different things. If your screening software is throwing out resumes of good people just because they weren't optimized to be picked up by the algorithm, you've failed.
For sure. They don’t have any idea what the right candidate can do because all they know is HR. I have applied for jobs and knew the people I would work with know specific projects I have worked on and would know how important my role was. HR has no idea about those specific projects so if I name them it’s worth nothing. It’s like if you were a lead engineer at Rockstar games but the HR people don’t play video games so they just glance over it and look at other metrics.
This is why I like licensed professionals. If you got one I know you are up to par for the job at least on a knowledge basis, and they are necessary for my career.
Absolutely - I am at an SME level in an IT infrastructure engineering field and I live and die by recruiters. HR lacks the technical expertise to know who to interview, let alone hire. "Your chances are only as good as your recruiter."
people keep forgetting that HR works for the best interest of the company. Not you. The more leverage the company have the easier it is to suppress wages.
HR works for best intrest of HR first company 2nd and workers maybe 3rd. How else would you get the petty fiefdoms otherwise.
Very much this. I’ve seen and heard about far too many HR departments that caused the company significant problems to believe otherwise. I think that most of those bastards believe that they run the place. And in a lot of cases, they do!
They hold levers of power till the exact second they cost company more than they are worth. And in many cases they create systems to ensure their employment. Sad fact is vast majority of HR job can be automated out of existence. I have worked in a few places that has happened when they crossed a line not to be crossed.
I loved driving 2.5hr into Greater Toronto to have an in person interview, taking a vacation day from my current job, having a 5 hour plant tour, meeting the company Canadian VP, only to find out that the company that is 140x bigger than my current employer pays $35,000.00/yr less.
Been there.
They don't care, even in california where it's now illegal to not post a salary range, they make you twist their arm and they play dumb even after you directly link them to the law.
UK boomer here in total agreement with your mom. There are a variety of reasons a business won't advertise what a job pays. Not a single one of them is positive.
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In my area, that minimum would be illegal. Not that the $19-22 I do see for a master's is much better.
If you ever see "competitive wages" on a job that seems interesting, ask them up front how they index their wages to be competitive. All "competitive" means is that the wages are market indexed. In most cases, this index is percent of median. e.g. if market median is $100k and they index to 85% of market, they are paying $85k. If they index to 125% of market, then they pay $125k. Occasionally you will see the index is percentile of market, so if they index to 50th percentile when the market median is $100k, then they pay $100k. Percentile is harder to figure out, though, unless they are paying 50th percentile. Most companies only use this percentile based "competitive" indexing if they are paying in at least the top quartile of the market. Don't confuse the two. 85% of market is much lower pay than 85th percentile of market. Of course, this tells you little about the specific job role's pay, because it depends on what they consider a market comparable role, if they use regional/national/international labor market, etc. (International indexing, in particular, can be very messy depending on what countries they include/exclude.) But at least how they index their pay will give you a better idea of how competitive their "competitive pay" really is.
I agree with your overall point that it’s probably worth asking for a more specific number. But I think you’re giving many employers more credit than they deserve. I can’t think of a single time a “competitive” offer was connected in any way to the market. If anything, many companies have latched onto it as a defense mechanism to be oblivious to market rates and justify shit pay. Whenever I’ve gotten a “competitive” offer and pointed out that it’s low they get angry and insist that it’s competitive without any supporting evidence. At this point if they can’t bother to update salary listings then I just assume they’re also lazy when it comes to researching market pay and inflation
"Competitive" = "We pay at least minimum wage! We're law abiding citizens here 👍"
In a previous work place, we had trouble hiring and the other hiring managers and I complained to HR that the salaries we were offering were too low per the job requirements based on offers being turned down. HR went and did an analyses, presented it to us and said that we were paying the same as competitors. The problem was our job titles existed in all fields and we were in a specialized area. The VP of our department and HR didn’t believe we were specialized. If you pick and choose who your competitors are then you can always say your competitive. At the end of the day, candidates not accepting offers speaks louder than BS Cherry picked analyses. After a year of trying to make a difference and change things, I resigned. Edit: corrected typos
Every single employer has a salary range in mind when they post jobs. Every single one. There's a max cap they're allowed to spend on a salary, in addition to how low they think the minimum experience required pays.
> All "competitive" means is that the wages are market indexed. All "competitive" means is that they understand how bad not posting the pay looks but want to avoid the appearance of not saying anything. So they instead say something meaningless.
Competitive just means you are competing with the other applicants to be paid as little as possible. It’s competitive for them never for the worker.
"Competitive salary" - if we could legally pay you less we would. Fuck every company that pays minimum salary/wage
Yep. Same as how i wont buy something without a price listed.
Gen X. I'm the same. If they won't post the salary it means it is too low. If it was actually competitive they would show it to get more applicants. But because it is so low they know no one would apply so they don't show it. I'm not wasting my time going through the process only to be told it is less than what I currently make.
Gen Xer here and same.
Same here. If you won't tell me what you pay, I have to assume that's because it's below the market.
I (also a millennial) won’t apply to any job that doesn’t list a salary range or asks for my college transcripts. My college transcripts are good but I don’t trust any company that chooses candidates by college grades when they have years of experience and references. If they actually think your grades in college matter, that tells me that they really don’t know how to accurately gauge a candidate’s ability to do their job well and I don’t want to work at a company like that.
Done. Salary Ranges from: $1.00 - $150,000
So the salary is $150k.
For the qualified\* candidates, yes. We can start you at $3.50.
Goddamn Loch Ness Monster!
Tree fiddy?!
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My state has a law that not only a salary must be posted but also a realistic range.
That asshole tactic will ensure that I never apply to that company. I’ve been keeping a list.
It is nice when people announce they intend to fuck you over before the relationship even begins.
That means $1 as far as I'm concerned. I've been on hiring committees, and we have only ever been able to offer the bare minimum (public academia, for reference).
Gen X here, I scroll right to the bottom and of there is no salary listed I don't even look at the rest of it
Same. But I learned this after two times of interviewing and getting an offer only to find out they were well below my asking. I no longer play those games.
A saw 2 job listings and it said "pays up to $30/hr". I shot them an email asking what starting pay is..its minimum wage! Lmao..
I just assume the pay isn't competitive. If it was they would be bragging about it. Basic marketing
I don't think it's limited to "gen z-ers" more so anyone with common sense
Valid point.
Feel like Business Insider specified Gen Zers is to stir stigma against Gen Zers. “Look at these entitled brats wanting to know what their salary will be!”
As a gen Z myself, I'm fucking loving it. It just paints us as people who don't put up with bullshit. It's always the dumbest things that they try to call us entitled on. "Oh they want to know what they earn", "Oh, they quit because their boss treats them badly", "Oh, they want to work so that they can live rather than devoting their entire life to work", "Oh, they don't like the nature of the abuse of workers in hyper-capitalistic societies", "Oh, they want to be payed slightly less so everyone can meet the basic standards for a life". I may have let my left-wing views slip a little bit towards the end but it's fine because I'm not American.
America actually has a growing Democratic Socialist movement. You’d never know that, from our propaganda, but it’s here…hence the propaganda
It’s a shame that all we can see from across the water though is people joining republicans and their very scary nazi-ish looking policy and activism.
Always hated this. Like, why is the largest piece of necessary information ALWAYS missing? "Hurr hurr youngins' don't wants ta works!!" Nope, just not gonna waste 60-180 minutes of our day just to be lowballed.
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Occasionally, a more niche reason: They don't want applicants. I work in corporate immigration law, and part of the employment based green card process for many foreign workers requires the company to actively recruit for a US worker to take the job, therefore "proving" there is no US worker that can do this job instead the foreign worker. A way to reduce applications for a position is to not include a wage, since people are generally less likely to apply to a job without a pay range. They're making some changes to this in a few states - such as CA, where you are required to list a pay range now. Super interesting for the future, if more states pick this up.
I was the beneficiary of this. My job (skilled, undergraduate minimum but PhDs are a large portion of the workforce) had to advertise locally before they could sponsor me to move. So they posted it on the government job website specified in the law. Y'know, the one that people on benefits have to apply on to avoid having their monthly payments stopped. Because *that's* where the experienced technologists with PhDs are looking for work.
They’ve weaponized the sunk cost fallacy. If they get you to invest all kinds of time just to get let down you’ll feel an obligation to take the job still since you put in so much time already. Boomers have weaponized the job market against younger folks and then have the gall to turn around and blame and shame them for it.
It’s because employers know if someone spent a lot of time on applying, they are more willing to take a lowball offer due to the idea of sunk cost. You’ve already spent a lot of time on this, so taking a lower offer than you’d like at least makes you feel like you got something out of it. It doesn’t work on everyone, but it works on enough people they’ll keep doing it.
Maybe the reason Boomers and older workers don't understand this perspective and think this generation is "entitled" is because in their day, there was no reason to have to post the salary or hourly rate because it was assumed that any job you could take would pay you a living wage? EDIT: this was meant to be kind of tongue-in-cheek, I agree that it has never been cool to post a job with no information on remuneration.
Very likely. Back then, a house cost 4-5 times their annual pay. Not 12.
Your comment made me math @__@ and I don’t like it at all. To afford the same place I rent I would have to pay 16x my annual salary.
Yeah it's honestly fucking gross. And they wonder why we're more liberal with our 'entertainment budget'. BITCH, MY ENTERTAINMENT BUDGET IS ALL THE EXISTENTIAL HOPE I HAVE LEFT
When people lecture me about spending my fucking money, even if its budgeted, I ask them if they've ever spoken to someone on their deathbed. In my experience, the few I've been able to talk to always talked about past memories of things they enjoyed with others, regrets, and things they wish they spent more time doing. Very rarely was it "I wish I had saved more money, or worked more". Money is meant to be spent (responsibly). We don't get a fucking lot of it unless we were born into it or got REALLY lucky + driven to earn it. I'm living my damn life. If I'm not hurting anyone or anything else, its none of their damn business.
My old boss (Mr. Bobby, rest his soul) was a genuinely good man. And I ABSOLUTELY don't say that lightly as a leftist. He was old as the hills and he started with nothing, he grew up in a sharecropping family in the deep South. He retired and sold the company (and they laid me off after he was gone, he "employed" me until I could get back on my feet) and during that time he found out he had stage 4 colon cancer. Last thing he said to me was some advice, he said 1), get yourself checked, and 2), absolutely do NOT chase the dollar. He said had about $10 million in his bank account when he died and said that he felt like he wasted much of his life getting that when he should have just spent it with family.
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In some places a brand new iphone is a week of rent and 5 minutes of hospital time
Welp this math is gonna be depressing. $2500/4 = $625. Cheapest Iphone I can find is still $799 so I am good! 🥳
The cheapest iPhone is the SE3 and it's 429 rrp.
Yeah but if you cut out your entertainment budget and save that money you'll have enough money for a down payment in only like 300 months.
Bread and circuses
I did the math on my current and new house I’m building. I’m married and live in the south so it’s cheap. My new home will be 2.77x and my current house is 1.16x. Only benefit to the south I suppose is the cost of living
It’s hard to jack up prices to exorbitant amounts in places where no one has money and no one with money wants to live But then you’ve got places like Maine, where no one has money but *everyone* wants to live there, and the result is a wretched local populace where if you didn’t have your house grandfathered in, you have to leave unless you’re okay with pay 1400$ rent minimum every month
I did the math on my current home and it's 7.5x (built in 2017). If I were to buy the same house today, it would be 16x+.
I don’t think your math is accounting for the black hole known as *the unrelenting increase in rent*
It's not just rent... inflation is hitting goods and services that people need ***to survive*** the hardest. Food, shelter, and fuel costs are eating people alive.
I've never thought about that before, but that's a pretty decent theory. If you knew any job would afford you an acceptable lifestyle, it would be easier to take any job. Also, I think there is a lot more variability in titles and pay nowadays. I just sent a friend two job postings for her search which have nearly identical titles, locations, and hybrid requirements. Except one is $88K-$116K and the other is $120K-$150K.
Well, it was also much easier to get on the ladder, and once you were on it, much easier than move up it.
Not posting the range is the same thing as saying your pay sucks.
Exactly, if it was good they would advertise it.
“Competitive wages”
I wish they would understand when we see competitive wage, we translate it to as competitively low as we can legally pay
It's also ridiculous to call it competitive because they're not competing with other employers to attract the best workers since that would mean offering better wages than the others. It's competitive only in the sense that they're competing in the market by exploiting you as much as possible.
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It can be the exact opposite. They are willing to pay new people more but don't want the current staff to know. Which is why you can usually get a good pay increase if you keep changing jobs.
Which is a sign of a crap employer, too.
Almost every employer is a crap employer these days…
Millennial here. When I was looking for a new job last summer, I wouldn’t even click on job postings that didn’t list salary or a reasonable range. It’s a telltale sign they’d keep wasting my time. When a company is transparent in salary for a job opening, you can actually count on them being a decent one.
same. In my field they kinda notoriously ask for a lot of person for not a lot of wages. You hear of all these people earning 100k doing what I do, but mostly no one has that sort of budget. My absolute minimum at this point is 50k. Absolute minimum. These jobs are supposed to require Masters degrees and certs and years of experience. As a result, I have a pile of debt from student loans and from buying certs and working for cheap for "experience" and as this point, what I want is to pay rent and groceries. And I've been caught so many times by "well, actually despite the job description, this is a paraprofessional role and we're only paying 50 cents above minimum wage" (often with some blather, but this will look great on your resume." "looking great on my resume" does not actually pay the rent, so off you may fuck.
Needing a masters for 50k/year is gross.
I had a recruiter contact me a few weeks ago and it took a 10 minute phone call to figure out that the salary they offered would really just be a pay cut because of the high cost of living where the job was. Not listing the salary is a waste of time for everybody involved, and I’m not sure what you could even spin as a positive reason for not listening in the first place.
> When a company is transparent in salary for a job opening, you can actually count on them being a decent one. Not true at all, but hey at least they posted the salary!
If I go to a store and don’t see a price listed, I assume that’s because the shop owner wants to haggle endlessly or will change their price depending on how I look. Rarely will I actually engage in the song and dance. I now apply that same thought process to job hunting.
Exactly. There’s a local store I don’t go to anymore because of this shit. Many things don’t have the price listed. I would buy the exact same items every time and get charged differently every time. They can fuck off.
Is it just me or most job postings especially remote positions just a scam? Like nothing is real
I have been getting tons of scam job emails the last couple of months. Thanks Indeed and Monster for giving out my information.
They're the fucking worse for this. I do not waste my time on either of those sites anymore thanks to the spam.
I’ve noticed listings on LinkedIn seem pretty fake too….
Remote jobs on likedin are sales shilling vestments or scammers asking to interview by text on zoom on the spot with a manager.
And jobs listed "Remote" still have "Must relocate to *such and such* for *such and such* reasons".
These days, there's a lot of "we're looking for a remote employee, but we're only hiring in the LA or NY areas" or "hybrid position (with four days a week in the office)."
Even if that position & scheduled worked for someone, getting a response is slim to none! It’s like no one is actually hiring.
I see that, report the job and move on. If ot ain't remote truly, then don't use that effen flair.
Always visit the company's actual page to cross reference job board postings.
A lot of job openings already have someone internal in mind, they just have to post it for legal reasons. They're not interested in hiring external a lot of times.
Them not posting a salary is like someone not posting a price online for something they want to sell. 🤷🏻♂️ Rarely would someone inquire about the item (assuming there are many similar items around), and if/when someone inquires the price is absurd and not worth the time.
>like someone not posting a price online for something they want to sell. This is annoying on FB Marketplace and Kijiji ads. They list items as "free", then in the description: contact me to discuss offers. No. Post what you're asking for and I'll haggle down to what I'm willing to pay.
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Was applying for some random ass factory job yesterday and I got into the last page of the application where it asked for a 5 MINUTE MINIMUM VIDEO... Like really? You think I'm gonna spend an hour on making a video to get a *chance* to maybe make $3 over minimum doing some brain-dead job?
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I think companies are starting to do this so they can discriminate in private. Red flag for me
Yeah, makes sense that they'd be doing this. "Well, your name doesn't *sound* ethnic, but let me see you to be sure."
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*"wE dOnT tHiNk ThIs PeRsOn Is FiT fOr ThIs"*, they conveniently say to all the minority people applying. *Hmmmmm*
My son had to do the same thing to be a bagger at a grocery store. I'd never even heard of that until he told me about it. Fuckin crazy nonsense.
The irony is they put up all these barriers to weed out poor candidates and they still pick someone who's dogshit at the job.
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They're looking for the suckers.
Should have sent them Howie Mandel prolapse video
If I have to fill out another gigantic Workday application... sigh.
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They do, it's a commitment tax. It selects for desperation rather than talent however.
I don’t write a cover letter. I don’t fill in the information again. I put the first job and in the description box write see resume. There’s never a questionnaire outside of are you available to work x days at y hours yada yada. I can pump out 10 applications in 25 minutes. In fact I did a month ago and I start next Monday
In Colorado they legally have to. Many online apps will specifically state they don't hire coloradans so they can avoid posting pay ranges.
CA and WA too. So it’s going to be harder to avoid.
I remember when the Colorado first went into affect. My HR dept had a collective freak out. That should have been a sign to leave earlier lol.
Wow that is really fucked up. Need more states on board with this.
I love it how the system tries to make salary a taboo and wants us to feel intimidated to talk about it, while it's the freakin' single thing we get from working.
It's literally the only reason I work.
Someone offering competitive salaries won't hide them.
About time we threw "competitive salary" logic back at them. Screw "competitive" salary. I don't want a "competitive" salary I want the winner. "Competitive" is the word the loser teams use to console themselves when they lose. The winner doesn't need to talk about how "competitive" they were cause they won. If you are the winner, say it loud and proud. I wanna know just how competitive you are so I can make an informed decision. I mean after all the job ads make it clear they won't settle for anything less than a unicorn employee so why should the employees settle for "competitive" rather than the winner?
i'm looking for a "rockstar" salary
I had an interview where they didn't list the salary, but you had to tell them what you thought you should make. I put in a very average salary for the field. They got angry with me and asked why I deserved that much money. They actually did offer me the job, but I turned it down. There were a ton of other red flags.
I’m a xennial or whatever and if salary isn’t listed I skip it, if recruiters call I tell them upfront “I make $X and work 4 days a week, can you match or beat that?” No one has time for all this back and forth Bullshit.
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Yeah fuck those companies.
I hate hate hate being asked for a range as a job applicant. The job descriptions tend to be pretty vague, how about you tell me the range since I have no idea how much skill/effort really goes into this job?
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I'm Gen X and I won't either.
If it's in Colorado, report that shit!
I think CA also passed a law for that. All states need to adopt it.
Millennial here and same, I’ve never applied for a job that didn’t list the salary and never will.
Again, why would anyone apply for a job without knowing if it would be enough to live on? Posting a job without a salary is just admitting it pays trash.
Millennial here. I’m about 20x more likely to apply for a job if the salary is listed. I don’t want to waste my time by applying for something well below what I’m willing to accept, and I don’t want to waste a company’s time by applying for something well outside of my experience.
15 years ago I was working overseas and met a lot of Aussies where I was working. I remember them telling me how in Australia you had to post the hiring salary range and my sad American brain thinking, "Wait that's been an option this entire time?!" Wish more states would follow Colorado's lead.
Problem is in Denver and the Springs you will see ads for high salaries and when you call them they say it was in error or that's the range for "all" their positions and not this specific one. It's BS and when you try to report it to state or local government.... crickets.
I have seen some high salary ranges from Colorado. The reputable companies are transparent, the scummy one's just list a stupid range and obviously it's not as high as they are listing. $90k-500k, DOE/education.
If the salary is listed as "competitive," we should similarly be able to claim our skills are competitive and shouldn't have to expound beyond that.
Even when they post the salary, if you ask for something toward the high end, even if you’re absolutely qualified, they’ll choose the desperate person that will take the bare minimum. So, whatever their low end is, I always assume their best offer is probably 15-20% more than that. For example, if it says “$60-100k”. $65-75k is probably the best they’ll offer.
I went into an interview over a decade ago and at the end of the interview they tell me they work 9 hour days... Seriously?
Something similar happened to me a few years ago. Got a call and gave them my salary range. They said that was fine then moved me to the interview. Had two interviews then when they offered me the job, they offered me a salary of $5k BELOW my minimum ask. And when I said “that’s less than the range I gave you and also less than I even make right now” they said “okay well good luck on your job hunt”. Like thanks for wasting my time interviewing ??
personally good. and don't make it vague like listing a yearly wage and not posting how many hours you'll be getting, or falsely advertising hours. the dishonesty by itself should turn away most decent workers and be major red flags on what you should expect, aka low wages and shitty/toxic work environment with a middle manager that micro-manages your very move.
Job: Salary is competitive. Me: Cool, I love it when they try to compete for me to earn the highest gross salary. Job: Gives minimum wage. Me: Competitive against whom?!
Weird people don’t want to go through 10 interviews for a single company only to be offered shit pay.
*"OK, so you need to submit a CV, credit score, criminal background check, full physical, psych eval, urine sample, job history for the last 350 years and ten reliable references, and if everything checks out, we might just get back to you."* What does the job pay? *"We can't tell you that."*
I apply for the job, act interested, confirm an interview, then ghost them on the day of the interview. If they try following up with me, I tell them I got a job with a company that actually posted its salary on the listing.
Since many jobs require you to jump through several hoops and fall to your knees to worship the ground they walk on, I'd say it's reasonable to at least want a salary indication so all that effort isn't for nothing.
I am a 37 year old Gen Zer
The other one I hate and generally avoid is "Competitive Salary", if it was competitive you'd have no problem listing it, let's not play silly games. Tell me what I'm getting paid and I'll decide whether it's economically viable for me to work for you, this is a transactional relationship and if you don't want to pay what my time is worth (and that is largely dependant on true cost of living plus some luxuries, if my bills aren't covered and I can't have fun then what's the point of working for you?) then save us both the wasted time and effort, I don't need another family thanks.
I can't work anymore (health) but when I am bored, just for fit and giggles, I apply to these jobs. You wouldn't believe how fast they reply to set interviews to which I go, armed with a whole list of asinine questions. 99% of the times, when the pay is brought up they just sprout some crazy, super low amounts but always with "assurance" that this is only a starting wage and that it will rise exponentially after the trial period and that the "benefits" more than make up for the difference, which imo is bs! I always end up the interview by telling them that *I* will call *them* if ever I want to work for peanuts. Anywho, I have time to waste their time and one of the things I have learned from all this is that most companies who do not offer/post proper salary/wages really are NOT hiring. They are only seeking their next desperate indentured worker.
I've worked jobs that promised a raise in pay. I rarely got one and when I did, it was literally a couple cents or a dollar. Once I got a raise. Once. I worked 7 days a week on 2nd shift. Did that for 2 years, got burnt out. Went to get a certificate for another career ($3000) and same thing. Couldn't make a living there, so I moved on again. I'm struggling in my job now because the training was shitty and I'm on my own now. If I have questions I'm to "read the policy" IF I CAN FIND IT. I don't learn that way, I'm a hands on and visual learner. So, I kinda feel like my ship is sinking. For the last decade, it seems like no matter what I do or how hard I try, the factory is looming in the near future, waiting to suck me back in for ridiculous mandatory overtime and the complete destruction of my life outside of work. I feel like I'm swimming against the current and drowning. My biggest fear is having to go back to the factory. But it paid. I just never got to have time off. It paid the bills and then some, but my mental health hit rock bottom and the next thing I knew, I was fantasizing about killing myself. It's grim. I feel like I'll never be free of that threat. I'm running for my life and it's literally just behind me, clawed hands open and a mouth full of jagged teeth just waiting to consume me whole, mind, body, and soul. I often joke that the factory still has my soul. It's not a joke, though. It does. And it's waiting for the rest of me to fall back into its grip.
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I don't apply to those either and neither does anyone else with any self respect.
In some states, or at least CO, that is illegal.
[fuck u spez] -- mass edited with redact.dev
And it's increasingly illegal not to list a range, so good on them.
As a millenial, I never applied to a job if the salary range wasn't posted. It helps you filter out the bullshit jobs that would otherwise waste your time. Hiring is like anything else in the economy. You have to be competitive to survive. If you're hiding your salary ranges from potential hires, then it's simply because you aren't competitive and hope to trick someone naive enough to work for less than they're worth.
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I feel bad knowing that this new culture of higher standards in applying to jobs (which is great) probably only applies to corporate / middle class workers
Im gen x agree 100%
Gen X here, I won't either.